I love Lord Winston

[Hitcher]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4593916a11.html

I particularly agree with his comments directed at New Zealand's clean and green "status", most of which is a state of mind enshrined in the heads of a handful of greenies with no notion of what constitutes either reality or sound science.

New Zealand's future economic salvation does not lie in tourism, fashion or film. A "knowledge economy" is not powered by qualifications. I wish we had politicians brave enough to stand up and be counted on this.

[mowgli]

Yup, I agree. Most NZ thinking is neither clean nor green. But with our small population we simply haven't had time to screw the whole country up yet. There's still time though :oi-grr:

[Hitcher]

It's not just our thinking. The reality is that this country is neither clean nor green. Saying that it is doesn't change that. Comparatively it may be, but that's no cause for celebration.

New Zealand is neither GM or nuclear free. And there is no legislation committing us to such a future, so talk of our "status" in either regard is just a fantastic fabrication. We have legislation that stops nuclear-powered and armed ships visiting our ports. We have biosecurity regulations relating to the importation of GM seed for sowing and "new organisms", but that's it.

As a small example, it is largely impossible to procure soy-based products that are devoid of GM. The presence of GM material in any human food has not caused one health issue for anybody who has consumed it. Nor should that be any surprise to anybody who understands how DNA and genetic modification actually works. But hey, I'm not a deranged, paranoid, fear-monger.

Hang on a minute, maybe I really can hear the sky falling...

[Edbear]

It's not just our thinking. The reality is that this country is neither clean nor green. Saying that it is doesn't change that. Comparatively it may be, but that's no cause for celebration.

New Zealand is neither GM or nuclear free. And there is no legislation committing us to such a future, so talk of our "status" in either regard is just a fantastic fabrication. We have legislation that stops nuclear-powered and armed ships visiting our ports. We have biosecurity regulations relating to the importation of GM seed for sowing and "new organisms", but that's it.

As a small example, it is largely impossible to procure soy-based products that are devoid of GM. The presence of GM material in any human food has not caused one health issue for anybody who has consumed it. Nor should that be any surprise to anybody who understands how DNA and genetic modification actually works. But hey, I'm not a deranged, paranoid, fear-monger.

Hang on a minute, maybe I really can hear the sky falling...


You forget we live in a democracy, mate. The numbers and noises wins... Politicians support what gets them the most votes...

[oldrider]

You forget we live in a democracy, mate. The numbers and noises wins... Politicians support what gets them the most votes...

And "votes" are far more dangerous than all of the other aforementioned undesirables put together! :shifty: John.

[madandy]

Nearly all outdoor ball sport in NZ is played on GM turf. It is used, in part to reduce chemical and water reliance.

There is an ageing demographic, and an ignorant demographic that, while often a silent majority usually end up directing the Nation.

[avgas]

If you don't like it - go elsewhere, i am.
NZ is stuck in 1952, it has been since 1965. Which is great except for those of us who where born after that.
Cities like Kyoto in Japan makes cities in NZ look like rubbish tips, I'm not even going to talk about the public transport side of things.
Too often i hear "Woah hold up a minute, we just need to test this for the next 10 years before we will use it"............
Learning here is also feeling a bit of this.

[Magua]

If you don't like it - go elsewhere, i am.


That'll solve this country's problems. _b _b :P

[Indiana_Jones]

That'll solve this country's problems. _b _b :P

And don't you forget it!

-Indy

[dhunt]

As a small example, it is largely impossible to procure soy-based products that are devoid of GM. The presence of GM material in any human food has not caused one health issue for anybody who has consumed it. Nor should that be any surprise to anybody who understands how DNA and genetic modification actually works. But hey, I'm not a deranged, paranoid, fear-monger.

Have a look at this article http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=64266 It certainly leaves me a bit sceptical about some GE stuff.

[Tank]

If you don't like it - go elsewhere, i am.
NZ is stuck in 1952, it has been since 1965. Which is great except for those of us who where born after that.
Cities like Kyoto in Japan makes cities in NZ look like rubbish tips, I'm not even going to talk about the public transport side of things.
Too often i hear "Woah hold up a minute, we just need to test this for the next 10 years before we will use it"............
Learning here is also feeling a bit of this.

and yet the largest independent survey / study into quality of life etc by Mercer has Auckland the 5th best city in the world to live.

Yes - there is lots wrong here in NZ and most of us and see it warts and all - but the grass is not always greener on the other side.

[Hitcher]

Have a look at this article http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=64266 It certainly leaves me a bit sceptical about some GE stuff.

The space aliens theory has just as much credence as anything else. Here we have a disease of uncertain origin, with many speculative causes. Given that the genetic material that is inserted into GM crops is derived from other organisms, nearly all of which humans have been exposed to for over 50,000 years, I would seriously question the thesis that somehow GM food is to blame for this.

[Hitcher]

If you don't like it - go elsewhere, i am.

That is entirely Lord Winston's point. He is saying that New Zealand doesn't value its best and brightest, who leave to work in laboratories such as his, because their contribution is neither understood or valued in their homeland i.e. here. He says while that's great for him, it's not doing much for poor little xenophobic, short-sighted, sports-mad, head-up-its-own-bottom New Zealand.

[idb]

....... The presence of GM material in any human food has not caused one health issue for anybody who has consumed it. .......

How can you know that?

[jrandom]

Lord Winston's fundamental problem appears to be that most people in New Zealand are stupid.

Which is true.

Unfortunately, if Lord Winston thinks that he can convince stupid people not to be stupid by pointing out to them that it would be to their advantage to become more intelligent, he's fighting a losing battle.

One can only hope that his comments will have a narrowly positive effect in influencing both the Government and the Opposition to form an election-year policy of financial support for blue-sky R&D.

When it comes to political issues such as nuclear power and GE foodstuffs, it's obvious that the current climate reflects... stupidity.

Unfortunately, while one can always point out the correct courses of action in regard to such questions, one cannot fix the stupidity which sways the masses against them.

Personally, I find apathy to be an excellent coping strategy.

[Clockwork]

I'm don't consider myself anti GM but when I hear of comapanies such as Monstano and their "Terminator gene" added to crops or the suing of farmers for breaches of their intellectual property rights due potentially to cross-contamination; alarm bells do start to ring!

[jrandom]

"Terminator gene"

Am I the only one who thinks that 'Terminator gene' sounds totally rad?

[forkoil]

My daughter is in final stages of a physiology PhD at Liggins Institute (where Bob likes to visit). There is v little chance she will stay unfortunately. Partly because science is international, and scientists move to wherever their specialist interests take them. NZ has always been low brow wrt higher education, our heroes are basic down to earth role models (Sir Ed, Pinetree etc). I agree its the fault of short sighted politicians who still see our future on the farm. New $ has been allocated for science, but its gotta be agriculture related.

[Blackbird]

and yet the largest independent survey / study into quality of life etc by Mercer has Auckland the 5th best city in the world to live.

Yes - there is lots wrong here in NZ and most of us and see it warts and all - but the grass is not always greener on the other side.

Yes indeed:2thumbsup. It's absolutely healthy to criticise things that need criticising, whether it be Lord Winston or posters on this thread. As always however, things are rarely black and white. I didn't see the interview so I'm not sure whether Lord Winston gave an example of a country which he holds in high esteem. Take the UK and Germany for instance. Both are regularly lauded as "commercial powerhouses", "high standard of living", ya de ya. Whilst this may be true on whatever KPI scale they use, this doesn't measure that elusive "quality of life" to which Tank alludes. There have been recent international surveys in the UK and Germany where greater than 50% of the population wished they lived somewhere else because of problems in their own countries.

All I'm saying is that is that the total measure of a country's economic and "quality" well-being is bloody complicated and not the same for everyone. For my personal circumstances, I couldn't think of a better place to live than NZ, even with the politicians and and other knuckle-draggers doing their best to fuck it up.

[forkoil]

<snip>
All I'm saying is that is that the total measure of a country's economic and "quality" well-being is bloody complicated and not the same for everyone. For my personal circumstances, I couldn't think of a better place to live than NZ, even with the politicians and and other knuckle-draggers doing their best to fuck it up.
What about shifting to somewhere like the Cook Islands? Even more "quality of life". And we lean more to this as we recognise that we are falling behind the rest of the developed world

[jrandom]

New Zealand's future economic salvation does not lie in tourism, fashion or film. A "knowledge economy" is not powered by qualifications.

Y'know, just pondering this, it strikes me that it's easy to sit in one's armchair and splutter indignantly in agreement with Lord Winston and his very respectable moustache, but that it's rather less easy to:

(a) identify work that can be done to create this valuable potential knowledge that's spoken of so glibly; and/or

(b) STFU and get that work done.

One might, from a certain perspective, wonder whether many of those who bang on about such topics hold the moral authority to do so.

Should our Government spend more of its budget on general academic research funding? Quite possibly.

But bombastic hand-waving and dire pronouncements of non-specific doom are quite unlikely to lead to useful outcomes.

[Mikkel]

That'll solve this country's problems. _b _b :P

Well, if everybody who realise that there is a problem leaves, the problem 'sorta' goes away I guess.

[Hitcher]

How can you know that?

Because these foods have been tested to death in exhaustive clinical trials before commercial release. That's how.

[Hitcher]

I'm don't consider myself anti GM but when I hear of comapanies such as Monstano and their "Terminator gene" added to crops or the suing of farmers for breaches of their intellectual property rights due potentially to cross-contamination; alarm bells do start to ring!

Dear oh dear oh dear. Where to start.

1. A terminator sequence is what is found at the end of the slice of genetic code that has been spliced into an organism's DNA. At the other end of the added slice is what is known as the promoter sequence. DNA is like a zip. Genetic modification adds a series of extra teeth to the zip.

2. I am not an apologist for Monsanto and other large businesses in the GM seed business. But there is a big difference between the business ethics of a multinational corporation looking to protect its considerable investment in intellectual property (albeit heavyhandedly) and the science of genetic modification.

[Hitcher]

But bombastic hand-waving and dire pronouncements of non-specific doom are quite unlikely to lead to useful outcomes.

But this is Kiwi Biker! Few raves here ever contribute to useful outcomes. Or have I missed something?

[SPman]

Ah - THAT Lord Winston.......

For a horrible second, I thought Brett had embraced Winston Peters..... :eek: :sweatdrop

[Blackbird]

What about shifting to somewhere like the Cook Islands? Even more "quality of life". And we lean more to this as we recognise that we are falling behind the rest of the developed world

Cook Islands quality of life - by what measure??? I hope you had your tongue planted in your cheek.

[Clockwork]

Dear oh dear oh dear. Where to start.

1. A terminator sequence is what is found at the end of the slice of genetic code that has been spliced into an organism's DNA. At the other end of the added slice is what is known as the promoter sequence. DNA is like a zip. Genetic modification adds a series of extra teeth to the zip.

2. I am not an apologist for Monsanto and other large businesses in the GM seed business. But there is a big difference between the business ethics of a multinational corporation looking to protect its considerable investment in intellectual property (albeit heavyhandedly) and the science of genetic modification.

I think we are talking about different things. The terminator gene to which I refer effectivley renders a seed sterile thus ensuring that each year the farmer needs to come back to Monsanto and buy some more seeds.

GM science without ethics seems a dangerous cocktail to my mind.

[forkoil]

Cook Islands quality of life - by what measure??? I hope you had your tongue planted in your cheek.
As we sink lower in OECD rankings, we borrow more and more on our "quality of life" as self justification, helps to ignore things like dwindling quality of infrastructure, poor telecoms (broadband speed for instance), lower wages. We are about as close (above) to the balance point as Cook Islands are (below). (acknowledge partial pt)

[Hitcher]

I think we are talking about different things. The terminator gene to which I refer effectivley renders a seed sterile thus ensuring that each year the farmer needs to come back to Monsanto and buy some more seeds.

GM science without ethics seems a dangerous cocktail to my mind.

The reason that farmers have to come back to Monsanto is largely due to the seeds being infertile hybrids or because the addition of GM material makes them incapable of "normal" reproduction. This is nothing sinister on Monsanto's part, it's just an outcome of the GM process.

Again, without being an apologist for Monsanto and others of their ilk, much of this bad press is fuelled by people with a bee in their bonnet about what they believe to be the evils of GM who are just looking for every possible opportunity to have a crack at an easy multinational target.

Multinational companies are not going to foist their products unwittingly on the world. They've spent too much on R&D to give this stuff away. And if GM spread as easily as some believe -- through "adventitious genes" and other bunkum theories -- then the multinationals wouldn't have spent as much on international patent protections as they have.

Conspiracy theorists may beg to differ.

[Headbanger]

Conspiracy theorists may beg to differ.


what's your back ground?, Or do you just know everything?

[Blackbird]

As we sink lower in OECD rankings, we borrow more and more on our "quality of life" as self justification, helps to ignore things like dwindling quality of infrastructure, poor telecoms (broadband speed for instance), lower wages. We are about as close (above) to the balance point as Cook Islands are (below). (acknowledge partial pt)

Understood! I'm not arguing with you. The observation I was making is that statistical rankings such as OECD are only part of the story. Rich countries can still have severe social problems, partially due to wealth being concentrated among the relatively few. For example, America is hardly egalitarian. I'm not being critical of other countries. All I'm saying is that the "grass is greener" scenario depends partially on the circumstances of individuals. It's also a shifting line in the sand due to other factors such as climate change, energy costs, finite natural resources etc. It's an incredibly complex equation for which there is no single "right answer".

[Hitcher]

what's your back ground?, Or do you just know everything?

I was once abducted by space aliens. I still have the anal probe as proof.

[idb]

Because these foods have been tested to death in exhaustive clinical trials before commercial release. That's how.

Then you can say that according to exhaustive clinical trials carried out before commercial release there is no danger to human health from the consumption of these foods.

Not quite the same thing.

[avgas]

and yet the largest independent survey / study into quality of life etc by Mercer
Just like that time Microsoft gave us windows for free, or the time Mobil gave me free gas.
Sorry for looking a gift horse in the mouth - but independant, Mercer and free don't fit with me. If it were really the case then why isn't their head office in Auckland?
Mercer are not only the largest surveyors in the world, but probably the most savvy. I would not be surprised to see a catch like "Auckland best city in the world has direct correlation to Coffee being good for you".
You are right is saying the grass isn't greener elsewhere - but you have to question whether this is as good as it gets in NZ, and the downwards slope is looming.

[forkoil]

Understood! I'm not arguing with you. The observation I was making is that statistical rankings such as OECD are only part of the story. Rich countries can still have severe social problems, partially due to wealth being concentrated among the relatively few. For example, America is hardly egalitarian. I'm not being critical of other countries. All I'm saying is that the "grass is greener" scenario depends partially on the circumstances of individuals. It's also a shifting line in the sand due to other factors such as climate change, energy costs, finite natural resources etc. It's an incredibly complex equation for which there is no single "right answer".
Agreed. From MY standpoint, as a baby boomer (or a booming baby), the values and hopes/dreams of my "youth" for the country put the "shifting" line further up the economic prosperity parameter than is currently the fashion politically. So from where "I" sit, we are going backwards. Others, and you in particular, may have another view. Maybe I misunderstood yours to be more along the "green" scale, as these arguments tend to polarise ppl. Science was king when I was a lad, and NZers were held in high esteem, Ernest Rutherford (bit older than me tho) etc. And I love my outdoors, huntin, shootin fishin etc, but the greens have gotten into our collective psyche to the extend I believe we have become almost luddite in our national outlook. My 2 OE's so far, in my 20s in the 70's and this year, both to Europe, the contrast between the two trips has left me quite sad at how far we have dropped cf other countries...

[avgas]

Well, if everybody who realise that there is a problem leaves, the problem 'sorta' goes away I guess.
Just like Texas.......

[ManDownUnder]

I wish we had politicians brave enough to stand up and be counted on this.

We have pollies neither capable of standing up, nor counting.

We're fucked mate

[ManDownUnder]

I was once abducted by space aliens. I still have the anal probe as proof.

Carver told you it's a WHAT???

[Blackbird]

My 2 OE's so far, in my 20s in the 70's and this year, both to Europe, the contrast between the two trips has left me quite sad at how far we have dropped cf other countries...

I'm a Baby Boomer too, educated and worked in the UK until my mid 20's and now recently semi-retired. Hardly a died in the wool greenie, I'm a mechanical engineer and have spent a spell working in the States as well as travelling extensively. Only the one-eyed would claim that NZ can't learn from other countries, and I mean not only the positives, but what to avoid too.

I know it's probably a trite thing to say with the serious issues facing both NZ and the rest of the world, but every time I fly back into the country, I still get that little thrill of being "home". That doesn't happen when visiting the UK.

It's a tough world, innit?

P.S And don't get me started on politicians giving out lollies in the shape of personal tax cuts. an infinitely better proposition to spend it on health, education and the sciences if we're going to improve as a nation.

[Mikkel]

I was once abducted by space aliens. I still have the anal probe as proof.

I'm guessing post-traumatic stress has caused you to cook up that explanation for your wife's 1st year anniversary gift. While nostalgia has caused you not to just let go...


Just like Texas.......

...or Kansas. There's no place like home :pinch:

[Clockwork]

The reason that farmers have to come back to Monsanto is largely due to the seeds being infertile hybrids or because the addition of GM material makes them incapable of "normal" reproduction. This is nothing sinister on Monsanto's part, it's just an outcome of the GM process.

Apparently not. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/465222.stm)

However we are slightly off topic and I'm happy to agree that there are many other areas where I would be only too happy to see NZ undertake more R&D

[Hitcher]

Apparently not. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/465222.stm)


Reread the article to which you have linked.

[Clockwork]

I read it. Just because Monsanto now say that they wont use them does nothing to prevent them or anyone else from further developing this research at any point in the future!

Anyway, I simply posted the article because you apeared to be denying such research existed.

[Headbanger]

Reread the article to which you have linked.

I hate to say it, But your lacking your god-given dose of healthy scepticism, Big business has been known to lie, especially when untold billions of dollars are involved, yet you seem to have swallowed the entire line so much you will talk in absolutes. And any conflicting view you dismiss as crackpot.

[Hitcher]

I hate to say it, But your lacking your god-given dose of healthy scepticism, Big business has been known to lie, especially when untold billions of dollars are involved, yet you seem to have swallowed the entire line so much you will talk in absolutes. And any conflicting view you dismiss as crackpot.

I am not defending "big business". Monsanto is as guilty as many other businesses in stooping to dodgy practices to enhance their competitive advantage.

Any "conflicting view" must be regarded as "crackpot" in the absence of evidence to support it, surely? People who believe the earth to be flat (and there are some who do) are crackpots. People who make stuff up, like nonsense about "adventitious genes", "terminator" genes (an as-yet uninvented technology), genocide of Monarch butterfly populations and such are also challenged by reality.

[Headbanger]

Right, ask yourself why many current lines of seed don't reproduce? Consider that every single trait of that product is carefully selected, from how to grows, to its nutritional value, taste,shelf-life, etc etc,

Its already done on purpose. Don't swallow the load.

[Hitcher]

Right, ask yourself why many current lines of seed don't reproduce?

I know why many current lines of non-GM seeds don't reproduce. The question is, do you?

[Headbanger]

Whatever, I asked your background, Got a bullshit answer which fits in with your black and white claims, What waste of time, 2 sides sonny boy, to everything. Self-proclaimed experts on everything gets a little tedious. Knock yourself out.

For what its worth I'm comfortable with GM foods and nuclear, But I'm damned If I'd want persons like you to argue the case.

[Goblin]

The presence of GM material in any human food has not caused one health issue for anybody who has consumed it.How can you be so sure of that? Could it be that GM foods have not been around long enough to know for sure that they cause no health issues? What about generations down the line? It might take 100 years to really "know" what the effects of fucking around with the genetic make-up of food really are.
But as long as the multinationals are making billions it doesn't really matter does it.

[forkoil]

Whatever, I asked your background, Got a bullshit answer which fits in with your black and white claims, What waste of time, 2 sides sonny boy, to everything. Self-proclaimed experts on everything gets a little tedious. Knock yourself out.

For what its worth I'm comfortable with GM foods and nuclear, But I'm damned If I'd want persons like you to argue the case.
You would have gained more credibility if you answered his question and explained why they cant reproduce. Taking it ad hominem just lost you the argument.

[Headbanger]

Can't say I'm really interested in an argument that consists of "I swallowed the load,The load is perfect and pure, Everyone else has to swallow the load, everyone that refuses to swallow the load is a crackpot".

If I have lost it, Fine by me.It wasn't that grand to begin with and lacks credibility from the get go.

[MisterD]

What does Lord Winston know anyway? He's was a supporter of Tony Bliar FFS [/my case]

[jrandom]

I swallowed the load,The load is perfect and pure...

That's what she said!

[forkoil]

Can't say I'm really interested in an argument that consists of "I swallowed the load,The load is perfect and pure, Everyone else has to swallow the load, everyone that refuses to swallow the load is a crackpot".

If I have lost it, Fine by me.It wasn't that grand to begin with and lacks credibility from the get go.
So why do you take asparin?

[The Pastor]

I was once abducted by space aliens. I still have the anal probe as proof.

So thats whats been up you ass all this time. Note I spelt ass the correct way, just for you.

Might want to look at getting that removed.

[Forest]

Global food prices are starting to spiral upwards.

The world will need to start deploying GE/GM foods in order to meet increasing demand.

[madandy]

couple a million starving Somali people wouldn't mind consuming some GE/GM vegetables right now!!!!!!!!!!

It sickens me to learn of these peoples plight while the western world full of tree huggers and do-gooders argue about seed being sterile and political issues surrounding some good old cross breeding and gene splicing to make food more betterer.

[doc]

Lord Winston's fundamental problem appears to be that most people in New Zealand are stupid.


We have to be if we are going to jump onto this "Global Warming" bullshit. :bash:

Pine trees dont even help. More are being removed for dairying than planted. :stupid: