What is your solution to the gang violence of late?

[Conquiztador]

Every meadia you recently visit has big headlines re current violence from mainly gangs in NZ. As long as they keep to them selves we tend to allow them to co-exist. But when they bring their lifestyle in to our living rooms we start making noises.

But there is nothing new re this. It is an ongoing cycle. The ones of us who have resided in NZ for some years have all seen and heard it before. At times I even wonder if the media drums it up to make more $$'s. But even if that was the case, there has in the last weeks been a increase in what can be described as random gang violence. Sadly HB has had a bit too much of it. Now we are seeing the self-promotors jumping on the bandwagon sniffing easy publicity. They are drumming the same old beat: Police crackdowns, banning, longer sentences, guns for police, more power for police etc.

But is that really the answer?

One thing that has always been my view is, that it is not the gangs but the individuals in the gangs that are to blame. The gangs gives them somewhere to hang out, but just because we stop gangs the rotten individuals will still be around. And if they are not marked with gang colours they will be so much harder to distinguish. I would even go as far as to say that by allowing them to hang out with other gang members keeps them away from the mainstream.

But that is just my view, and even if I have some knowledge here I am still to be convinced that I am fully right.

So what is the answer here? Or is there none? Gang issues is not something that is isolated to NZ. It is a world wide problem. I would consider the NZ gang problems to be minor compared to many other countries. That does not mean we should accept it.

If we discard the "shoot them all, send them to a isolated island" view that is nothing but a result of anger and will not happen, do we have something more constructive to provide as a solution? I actually believe some of the gang spokesmen who are saying that they are trying to change their gangs to provide a future for their children. (Then again I always believe that everyone has something good inside them)

Brainstorming time. What do you have to offer that would help here?

[NighthawkNZ]

nuke em... oh wait that would break our anti nuke policy ummmm nuke em

[rat biker 08]

Put them all on kapati island let them shoot it out then shoot the last one:shit:
It mite wake them up:yes:

[mowgli]

nuke em... oh wait that would break our anti nuke policy ummmm nuke em

The nuke policy only prevents nuclear armed/powered warships from visiting NZ. The policy says nothing about nukes arriving via other means...... nuke em

[Conquiztador]

Ok, a few more of these posts that has nothing constructive to offer and we should get this started...

[Trudes]

OK I'll help move things along then: napalm.

[Motu]

I actually believe some of the gang spokesmen who are saying that they are trying to change their gangs to provide a future for their children. (Then again I always believe that everyone has something good inside them)


The older gang members,those who have been in from the beginning are the ones saying they are changing their ways....they have seen the past and can see the future.The gangs need to be led from within,these are the guys who can lead the change.

[Rockbuddy]

OK I'll help move things along then: napalm.

I dont think the gonernment will fork out the carbon credits for napalm.......nuke em

[NighthawkNZ]

Ok, a few more of these posts that has nothing constructive to offer and we should get this started...

In all honestly...

There will always be gangs, even if you pass law to say no gangs... There is no single answer...

You have to catch them when they are young, so it starts with the family, school, and so forth... some of the young ones need that discipline... now with the anti smacking law they don't get it... (though I agree that there is a limit and understand what the law is trying to stop.)

Then you need more and possible better youth programmes. Then employment for the older... as well as alot tougher laws on gangs and volient crimes, and maybe a little more freedom for the police on gangs.

heck even bring in conscription to the armed forces... army are short on man power????

but even then this is only tip of the iceburg and I haven't really thought about...


The older gang members,those who have been in from the beginning are the ones saying they are changing their ways....they have seen the past and can see the future.The gangs need to be led from within,these are the guys who can lead the change.

yep... the younger ones need to be led, to change there ways

[firefighter]

well personally I think gangs are nothing but an excuse for all the bad eggs to cause shit and have pissing contests.....and the few bad eggs you speak of, well if they wanna fu*ck with you it gives them a safety net which means it's nearly impossible for you to do anything about it......ie, they wanna fight you/steal from you, whatever you retaliate and bad things will happen......

I seriously think that the defence force should get invovled, get all defence and police staff who want to volunteer to go out in squads and tactically takeout all gang affiliates/members, in one big overnight operation.....then try and flush the rest out over as short a time as possible, there will still be crime but with the drugs the gangs bring in being minimised it will help stop a lot of it. (serious suggestion, it's just standing up to a bully, that's basically what gangs are, except in one big group, at the moment theyr'e dictating how things are) and now the police are close to being armed.......well that's because they need protection from these violent gangs which harbour the "bad eggs"

basically your putting down the dog that bites.........why should we have to keep putting up with the shit?

[nallac]

this'll do.....

[AllanB]

If the gangs are prepared to bring their shit to public areas and cause havoc, I propose we send the army to their place for target practise.

Or if that's a bit harsh for the tree-huggers send Sue Bradford around to give them all hugs.

[mowgli]

Ok, a few more of these posts that has nothing constructive to offer and we should get this started...

Okay. Perhaps not constructive but here's another angle worth considering.

There's a criminal element in every society. Call it the darker side of the human condition if you like. To deal with this, society has evolved to include Police. Police have the thankless job of dealing with the criminal elements and making life safer for the rest of society. That feeling of safety breeds complacency and leads to a general under-resourcing of Police. In light of that under-resourcing, the existence of gangs actually makes policing easier. Instead of dealing with a mish mash crime committed by unknown individuals the Police get to deal with a semi-organised gang of criminals with a common set of values (albeit at odds with the rest of us). Organisation equals predictability equals simpler policing. Without the gangs and without additional Police resources there would be anarchy. That is until a new set of gangs rise up to take the place of those that were crushed.

So there you have it. Not constructive but food for thought.

[Headbanger]

Give the power back to the community.

Parents, Smack those kids. Teach em wrong from right.

Schools, Find that cane, Use it on the trouble makers, teach kids responsibility.

Cops, Kick there arses, box their ears, Humiliate em.

Justice system, PUNISH PEOPLE,EVEN KIDS, Work camps in our national parks will do it.

The Community, Stand up and be counted, The power is the people, Its just a matter of wielding it. Hell, when shit goes down with hearing distance of my house, even if just the rattle of a spray can, I go out and see what's going on, Met a few people that way, surprised a few people that way. If everyone done so then taggers would be out of business.

That aside, I reckon we have 2 generations of wasted useless pieces of shit in our society, That can't be saved from themselves, write them off, Drop all the PC bullshit and pathetic cultural sensitive moronic weak shit and concentrate on the next lot of kids through the block.

Gangs aren't the problem, Criminals are, and we already have laws against crime, The system just tolerates them, in many cases encourages them, and we as a community accept it.

[jimbo600]

The only way to sort them is to police them out of existence. Constant hounding and pressure backed up with forfeiture of unaccountable assets.

[Macstar]

What scares me is the carnage the drug P is causing, but what will the next drug be? And what will that do to society? Drugs are becoming harder and harder.

Sorry, link to gangs - many of these guys are obviously pushers of P and just for that reason alone should be jailed. But not a hotel, all expenses paid jail - a work for your food & accom jail. It's bad enough that society pays the social and direct costs of gang's crime, but then salt in the wounds that we pay over $100000 per year per inmate.

How can we round up the gangs? STOP DIVERTING POLICE AWAY TO TRAFFIC DUTIES / REVENUE COLLECTION!

[Swoop]

...send Sue Badford around to give them all hugs.
Then nuke them.
:cool:

[Trudes]

Send the Black power a letter from the Mongrel Mob saying they are going to rape all their bitches and impregnate their dogs etc and such and send the same letter to the mongrel mob from the black power to begin some kind of gang war, hopefully they'll wipe each other out, problem solved, repeat with other gangs.

[Headbanger]

For the current generation, Lets get a demerit system going with known and enforced jail time. Makes me sick how people can spend every weekend destroying peoples property and having run ins with the police and get endless community service and fines that we pay for by way of a benefit. This shit costs us as a community millions upon millions of dollars a year.

3 petty offences, 1 month in jail.

If you fail to mend your ways, Then fuck you, 10 years.

[fatzx10r]

send the SAS after them, im sure they would get rid of them quick enough. aqnd it would make great tv

[firefighter]

What scares me is the carnage the drug P is causing, but what will the next drug be? And what will that do to society? Drugs are becoming harder and harder.

Sorry, link to gangs - many of these guys are obviously pushers of P and just for that reason alone should be jailed. But not a hotel, all expenses paid jail - a work for your food & accom jail. It's bad enough that society pays the social and direct costs of gang's crime, but then salt in the wounds that we pay over $100000 per year per inmate.

How can we round up the gangs? STOP DIVERTING POLICE AWAY TO TRAFFIC DUTIES / REVENUE COLLECTION!

kinda like that movie escape from Absolom? (I think that's the movie)

sounds good to me!

[AllanB]

Send the Black power a letter from the Mongrel Mob saying they are going to rape all their bitches and impregnate their dogs etc and such and send the same letter to the mongrel mob from the black power to begin some kind of gang war, hopefully they'll wipe each other out, problem solved, repeat with other gangs.

Only one problem here - can any of them read?

[Conquiztador]

For the current generation, Lets get a demerit system going with known and enforced jail time. Makes me sick how people can spend every weekend destroying peoples property and having run ins with the police and get endless community service and fines that we pay for by way of a benefit. This shit costs us as a community millions upon millions of dollars a year.

3 petty offences, 1 month in jail.

If you fail to mend your ways, Then fuck you, 10 years.

Headbanger for PM!!!

My opinion has always been that we have got the reason for jail wrong. It has nothing to do with punishment. It has all to do with protection. Protection of the law abiding ones who have the right to walk the streets whenever and where ever they see fit.

Take away any and all rights the prisoners have.
Make them work. Hard.
Make a prison sentence of 7 years mean 7 years. No exeptions.
Yes, provide rehabilitation. But only to those who come asking for it. The ones who want the change.
Take away TV's, phones, luxuries. At least for the first 2/3's of the sentence. make them think twice re going back in.
And I am a big believer in the logic behind the "3 strikes and out" rule. Once you have lost the right to be part of the society you need to be removed to protect others.

[Trudes]

Only one problem here - can any of them read?

That's a damn good point! We could write it in smilies:
:bash::angry::2guns::soon::argue::girlfight::yeah: :finger::kick::ar15:

[Conquiztador]

And yes, I have some ideas re how this could be addressed (as you would expect...)

I fully agree with an earlier poster that said that forget re the grown ups. Too late. Focus on the kids, give them options. It is really the only solution. But catch 22: Their parents need to want the change for their kids, and sadly not all parents are up to it. (Again, my pet solution to all problems: If everyone took care of their own kids all problems would go away!)

So is the state supposed to do it for them? Is that not what is happening and personal responsibility is suddenly corroded away? Take the parents who's kids are in state care and something goes wrong. Their parents blame the state and want compensation. For what? That they did not do their job in the first instance??

And here my solution: Provide more funding for non-profit organisations that are working with children and youth. These organisations have people working for them that really do care, that put heaps of time and effort in for very little money. Make it easier for them to do what they want to do and see the issues disapper, cost of crime "prevention" go down. Give the kids places to go where they feel comfy, where there are ppl that genuinley care and give them options. Fix the problems BEFORE they exists. To be the ambulance at bottom of the cliff is not a solution.

Yes, this will cost money. But in the long run it will save heaps more money.

[Genestho]

It appears to start in the home, and from a young age.

Let your kids know theyre loved and nurtured, well fed, taught consequences.
Keep them in sport and out of court, teach them respect and discipline.
Good education and healthcare.
Give teachers the power back, they get trashed and disrepected and it must be impossible to attempt to educate kids this way.

Get them into hunting and fishing, teach them how to survive in the bush.
Good old fashioned skills.
If you put the effort in, they wont feel the need to hang out round town and cause trouble, or meet with like minded groups.

I know many gang members that joined up because they were lacking in family solidity.

Boot camps, lowering the age for serious and violent adult crime.

And above all consequences that fit the nature of the crime.

Tim Shadbolts right - if the army sleep in tents, why cant convicted prisoners? Then everyone can stop whinging about the cost of prison and get stuck in with the consequences and start to turn this shit around.

Personally I think there'll always be gangs - as someone else posted there is always a criminal element, always has been always will be, it just has to be treated with appropriate action

[1 Free Man]

Send the Black power a letter from the Mongrel Mob saying they are going to rape all their bitches and impregnate their dogs etc and such and send the same letter to the mongrel mob from the black power to begin some kind of gang war, hopefully they'll wipe each other out, problem solved, repeat with other gangs.
:first: I like your style Madam. Great Idea:2thumbsup
THEN either A. Nuke the fuckers that are left
or B. Ship the rest of them out to an Iceberg and leave them on it.
Not fair to Filthy up a pristine island like Kapiti Island.:innocent:

[Teflon]

The older gang members,those who have been in from the beginning are the ones saying they are changing their ways....they have seen the past and can see the future.The gangs need to be led from within,these are the guys who can lead the change.

I can't see that happening.. to much money to be made


NZ middle class are smoking so much crack, can you really blame gangs for fighting over turf.. a lot of coin to be made


I blame the Chinese.. Most of the meth precursors are imported by the Triads.. which is fucking up this country

[Tumbles]

Why is shoot them not allowed? Not gang members in general, but anyone caught of cold blooded murder, shoot them! If the punishment is severe enough for a crime that is calculated, it won't happen nearly as often.

You can't tell me that if the indian liquor store owner's killer knew that if he got caught he would be executed no questions asked, that he would have shot him in cold blood like that. Similarly, if he knew that he would be spending the entire rest of his life in solitary confinement if caught doing armed robbery to begin with, that he would take that risk. Its the Sue Bradfords of this world, creating the society where people don't have to take responsibility for their actions, that are creating these events.

As for the army comment, what the army needs is more professional soldiers. Babysitting sh*theads like these will only add to their burden. The army isn't a dumping ground for life's hacks,. It, like most other organisations, relies on quality dedicated individuals to get its job done. These are the people it needs more of. And we all know the only way to attract them is to pay better than the next guy. Fact of life. :Offtopic:

[Katman]

Hug each one individually and don't stop until they start to cry.


Then let go of them, stand back and laugh at them.

[Mike748]

Give the power back to the community.

Parents, Smack those kids. Teach em wrong from right.

Schools, Find that cane, Use it on the trouble makers, teach kids responsibility.

Cops, Kick there arses, box their ears, Humiliate em.

Justice system, PUNISH PEOPLE,EVEN KIDS, Work camps in our national parks will do it.

The Community, Stand up and be counted, The power is the people, Its just a matter of wielding it. Hell, when shit goes down with hearing distance of my house, even if just the rattle of a spray can, I go out and see what's going on, Met a few people that way, surprised a few people that way. If everyone done so then taggers would be out of business.

That aside, I reckon we have 2 generations of wasted useless pieces of shit in our society, That can't be saved from themselves, write them off, Drop all the PC bullshit and pathetic cultural sensitive moronic weak shit and concentrate on the next lot of kids through the block.

Gangs aren't the problem, Criminals are, and we already have laws against crime, The system just tolerates them, in many cases encourages them, and we as a community accept it.

+1

If something sounds odd near our place we will check it out, have met the neighbours in the middle of the street before now, even late at night.
Just a thought......
I don't like the term zero tolerance because it doesn't allow flexibility, but I do believe every issue should be addressed.
For the younger trouble makers, if they knew that someone was watching and that action would be taken if they crossed the line then I believe that this would take away the appeal of the "bad ass" image. I would like to see trouble makers monitored in such a way as to remove all privacy from their lives, only those that can live within society's rules should get to have privacy.

[Trudes]

:first: I like your style Madam. Great Idea:2thumbsup
THEN either A. Nuke the fuckers that are left
or B. Ship the rest of them out to an Iceberg and leave them on it.
Not fair to Filthy up a pristine island like Kapiti Island.:innocent:

Maybe someone already thought of that, sent them to Invercargilllllll to do it!:msn-wink:

[Toaster]

...The system just tolerates them, in many cases encourages them, and we as a community accept it.

I agree with your ideas in your post. I go further to say that its not so much that it is accepted, but more like begrudgingly "put up with", especially by those not directly feeling the effects of gang behaviour and the huge drug and crime impact gangs have in NZ both directly and indirectly.

We are way too apathetic in this country. That's why so many get away with so much and for little consequence.

[Delerium]

Have a quote on their patches, you know like they used to on possoms, x amount of dollars per patch:done:

[jrandom]

NZ middle class are smoking so much crack...

What is it with people calling methamphetamine 'crack'?

'Crack' is freebase cocaine.

I can understand calling meth 'P', but what's up with calling one drug by an established slang name for another?

:blink:

[Toaster]

Problem is the Bill of Rights passed into law in 1990 gives them way too much power. Criminal scum don't deserve rights or financial benefits, especially when creaming drug and intimidation money under the table.

[Conquiztador]

There is this big thing made out of P. But speed has been around for ages. It is nothing new. Yes, things have changed, but the gangs have always been the ones selling it. Drugs will always be around, and until the government starts selling them and makes them available to all at a low price the issue will not go away (and with the brilliant idea of taking party pills away, what is the chance of this??). So the only solution is to provide alternatives, give the kids better things to do with their time then be drugged out. Boredom is a big reason many turn to drugs. And once there it is hard to get out.

But back to the gang problem. For kids to want to join gangs there must be reasons. Take away those reasons and the gangs will, if not go away, then atleast fade to the background. No new members = fading away.

[MisterD]

The older gang members,those who have been in from the beginning are the ones saying they are changing their ways....they have seen the past and can see the future.The gangs need to be led from within,these are the guys who can lead the change.

Fark. Motu is really Pita Sharples. :crazy:

[Swoop]

3 petty offences, 1 month in jail.
Nope. Town hall stocks.
Minor offences = X amount of time in the stocks, with the public allowed to go and throw whatever rotten food, etc, at them. 24hrs a day, rain hail or shine.

send the SAS after them, im sure they would get rid of them quick enough. aqnd it would make great tv
This has already happened on an unofficial basis. A private affair ended up quite nicely...:buggerd:

[MisterD]

Nope. Town hall stocks.
Minor offences = X amount of time in the stocks, with the public allowed to go and throw whatever rotten food, etc, at them. 24hrs a day, rain hail or shine.


I reckon that's the one for taggers, they want to be well known by slapping their tag all over town? Fine, grant their wish...

[Usarka]

The older gang members,those who have been in from the beginning are the ones saying they are changing their ways....they have seen the past and can see the future.The gangs need to be led from within,these are the guys who can lead the change.

I heard a very interesting man on the radio the other day. He said current law and enforcement won't change and proposed a solution along these lines:


There are two types of gangs:
"Organised" - eg mongrel mob. These guys are more interested in profit and tend to fight amongst themselves not the public.
"Street Gangs" - bored, angry, unorganised. These are the ones causing the public concern.
It is extremely unlikey that we will get rid of either gangs (changing laws on obtaining spray paint really isn't going to do it).
Liquor is often a fuelling factor in the street gangs crimes (either obtaining it or as a result of its use)
Possible solution: Regulate liquor sales so that the organised gangs find it profitable to supply the "street" gangs.
The new supplier relationship may bring the two groups together and provide some role models and direction from the older organised guys.

[Mr Merde]

I have noticed that a few persons on this thread have advocated the use of the "army" in an attempt to handle this problem.

I would just like to point out that, according to online goverment references, our entire military forces total approximately 8000 persons. Thats army, navy and airforce.

What can they do?

Especially when you realise that our police force now numbers almost 10,000 persons and have proven to be ineffective at combating this problem.

Maybe people are tending towards the military as they are perceived to be trained to react to violent situations but guess again. The NZ Army has been, over the past 30 years, emasculated and wouldnt know what to do without first getting the advice of the PC brigade and OSH.

Personally I feel that there is not enough deterant to stop persons commiting these crimes.

As Gilbert & Sullivan wrote in one of their operetas

"Let the punishment fit the crime"

[NOMIS]

Give the power back to the community.

Parents, Smack those kids. Teach em wrong from right.

Schools, Find that cane, Use it on the trouble makers, teach kids responsibility.

Cops, Kick there arses, box their ears, Humiliate em.

Justice system, PUNISH PEOPLE,EVEN KIDS, Work camps in our national parks will do it.

The Community, Stand up and be counted, The power is the people, Its just a matter of wielding it. Hell, when shit goes down with hearing distance of my house, even if just the rattle of a spray can, I go out and see what's going on, Met a few people that way, surprised a few people that way. If everyone done so then taggers would be out of business.

That aside, I reckon we have 2 generations of wasted useless pieces of shit in our society, That can't be saved from themselves, write them off, Drop all the PC bullshit and pathetic cultural sensitive moronic weak shit and concentrate on the next lot of kids through the block.

Gangs aren't the problem, Criminals are, and we already have laws against crime, The system just tolerates them, in many cases encourages them, and we as a community accept it.

Very well put

[Lias]

Solving the "gang" problem is very simple.

Bring back the death penalty.
Introduce russian/chinese style gulag labour camps to replace prisons.
Legalise self defense with lethal force by passing strong castle laws.
Pass a "3 strikes your out" law for all repeat serious offenders. Fool us once, shame on you, fool us twice, shame on us, fool us thrice get a bullet in the head.

[NighthawkNZ]

Bring back the death penalty.


Bring back public humiliation

[Mr Merde]

Bring back public humiliation

For this to be effective then the person being humiliated needs to be of high enough mental capacity to give a fuck about being humiliated. If they are so stupid that they have to walk around in their "hard" uniform, make all the copycat expletives, pretend to all that they are really from the hard parts of the USA, I dont think this form of mental punishment will work.

To be humiliated one must have some sort of standards that would be affected by the humiliation.

[Wolf]

send Sue Bradford around to give them all hugs.
Sorry, dude, either the Geneva or the Hague Convention specifically bans "cruel and unusual punishment" and Amnesty International would just plain not stand for that. Better to shoot them humanely than subject them to Bradford.

Actually, better to knecap them and emasculate them with a rusty knife than subject them to Bradford.


That's a damn good point! We could write it in smilies:
you missed :buggerd:

Life sentences (as in die in prison) for rape, child molestation, murder, aggravated assault, armed robbery and dealing in Class A drugs. Three strikes and you're out (life sentence again) for other serious crimes including drunk driving. Minimum age of incarceration: 9

Also: make it retroactive - all those who have been released from sentences for crimes that qualify for life imprisonment need to be rounded up and thrown back in prison. All judges who have ever paroled someone who then reoffended with a qualifying crime are to be deemed "accessories before the fact" and imprisonned for life.

Prisons should be stripped back to the bare necessities for existence - basic food, shelter and clothing and the prisoners have to work to pay thier rent/food bills and pay reparations to the families.

All judges described above get their assets sold and the proceeds given to the victims of their crime.

If their families think that's unfair they can either harden the fuck up and accept that their [fa|mo]ther/spouse was a criminal sympathiser and responsible for the rape/assault/death of another human or they can get all pissy and "poor me" about it, retaliate against the "system" and join their parent/spouse in prison.

Fuck 'em. We have laws against crime. Lets use 'em.

All those gang members who manage to stay out of prison are quite welcome to stay.

As to taggers and other street hoods, spray paint the little fuckers. Any of them who assaults someone who's rightfully pissed off at having their property tagged can join the big boys in prison.

[Wolf]

If they are so stupid that they have to walk around in their "hard" uniform, make all the copycat expletives, pretend to all that they are really from the hard parts of the USA, I dont think this form of mental punishment will work.
If thats the case, then simply ship them to said hard part of the USA (and include a stamped, return-addressed, body bag - just in case their parents actually want the little retards back)

[Conquiztador]

Solving the "gang" problem is very simple.

Bring back the death penalty.
Introduce russian/chinese style gulag labour camps to replace prisons.
Legalise self defense with lethal force by passing strong castle laws.
Pass a "3 strikes your out" law for all repeat serious offenders. Fool us once, shame on you, fool us twice, shame on us, fool us thrice get a bullet in the head.

To me that sounds wery much like what is in place in USA. And it has been proven to be a failure.

[Dave Lobster]

I would just like to point out that, according to online goverment references, our entire military forces total approximately 8000 persons. Thats army, navy and airforce.

What can they do?



You'll find soldiers are far more motivated..

[Sanx]

Why is shoot them not allowed? Not gang members in general, but anyone caught of cold blooded murder, shoot them! If the punishment is severe enough for a crime that is calculated, it won't happen nearly as often.

You can't tell me that if the indian liquor store owner's killer knew that if he got caught he would be executed no questions asked, that he would have shot him in cold blood like that...

Great theory but having the ultimate deterent, as the death penalty is often referred to, doesn't ever equate to a decrease in violent crime. Take the States, for example. Boot camps or hard labour would be far more of a deterrent, if you ask me, coupled with the fact that if you find out that a mistake's been made along the way, you can release someone from a boot camp. It's quite hard to release someone from a grave.

[SixPackBack]

The government could stop this shite overnight by taking total control over drug manufacture and distribution effectively taking the gangs income away permanently.
Quasi's idea of not providing benefits without a drug test is a good one. Drug tests for ALL employment opportunities [lets call it an OSH initiative] is another cunning idea. Those individuals left not working or claiming benefits would require close scrutiny by the tax department.
Additionally I have wondered if 'engagement' of said members and associates would be helpful, this would be akin to changing attitudes from the inside rather than locking crims up when its to late.

A couple of ideas to ponder.......one things for sure we 'ain't winning the fight so change is needed, locking more people up or providing more police is simplistic, arrogant and bound to lead to further bloodshed as both sides escalate.

[Usarka]

Not providing benefits based on drug testing will lead to more crime.


Unless combined with another strategy such as spb's above.

[scumdog]

In all honestly...

There will always be gangs, even if you pass law to say no gangs... There is no single answer...

Yup, what he said.

As long as you have losers you'll have gang wannabes and recruits for the gangs..just look at the requitements to join a gang.

If everything you've experienced in life is negative you'll fit right in.:yes:

[Conquiztador]

Yup, what he said.

As long as you have losers you'll have gang wannabes and recruits for the gangs..just look at the requitements to join a gang.

If everything you've experienced in life is negative you'll fit right in.:yes:

As mentioned before: Lets focus on the ones that are not lost yet: The children.

- Smaller school classes so every child can get one on one tutoring and attention.

- Free activities for w/e and after schools that are fun and varied.

- Have leaders running programmes that the kids will look up to and want to be around.

- Don't push thing like religion or politics as part of it.

The ones who made it with a shitty start, they all had some experiences that changed their direction. But the ones of us who provided that change will never know that we did it. And often the one who we helped will not realise that we did it straight away. Might take years. But the main thing is that we made a difference in someones life. Changed someones direction.

And so, while the country tries to find a solution to this, there is already those of us that are working on it. Imagine if there was many more that did it. Might make a difference. Yes, there is money needed to do this. But in the long run it will be the much cheaper option. Prisons are expensive!

[_Shrek_]

I think that local resident in Invers has got it right let the buggers burn each other out, then let the cops go in & clean up :2guns: or bring back national service min ten years

[SixPackBack]

I think that local resident in Invers has got it right let the buggers burn each other out, then let the cops go in & clean up :2guns: or bring back national service min ten years

Our economy would collapse within 5:no:

[Dave Lobster]

Wouldn't it be easier to outlaw gangs?

Then kill on sight anyone wearing gang insignia.

The economy would save a fortune in benefit payments too.

[Ixion]

What have you got against Ulysses ? That's someone's grandmother , y'know.

[awayatc]

All we are doing is mopping up.....where is te water coming from?
The society we created obviously needs tweaking....


Single parent breeding programs and this social benefit depency we created may have backfired on us.
Youngsters need a sense of selfworth, need to achieve and compete.....sports, apprenticeships, honest days work etc....

We have been selfish and greedy, and not invested much in the future and future generations....now we pay the price for that

[Conquiztador]

I will be at the walk from Flaxmere to Hastings tomorrow. "Enough is Enough"

http://www.hbtoday.co.nz/localnews/storydisplay.cfm?storyid=3776821&thesection=localnews&thesubsection=&thesecondsubsection=

http://www.3news.co.nz/Couplelefttraumatisedafterhomeinvadedbygangmembers/tabid/367/articleID/60985/cat/64/Default.aspx#video

[Patrick]

send the SAS after them, im sure they would get rid of them quick enough. aqnd it would make great tv

Oh no - not another reality show... Hang on... This one would be fantastic!!!!!! What channel???????


Tim Shadbolts right - if the army sleep in tents, why cant convicted prisoners? Then everyone can stop whinging about the cost of prison and get stuck in with the consequences and start to turn this shit around.


Nope. Town hall stocks.
Minor offences = X amount of time in the stocks, with the public allowed to go and throw whatever rotten food, etc, at them. 24hrs a day, rain hail or shine.

AND

[QUOTE=Mr Merde;1621819]...our entire military forces total approximately 8000 persons. Thats army, navy and airforce.

What can they do?

Especially when you realise that our police force now numbers almost 10,000 persons and have proven to be ineffective at combating this problem.



The New Zealand Bill of Rights Act made any real form of punishment and pre emptive enforcement a non event. Attempts to introduce laws against gangs have been poorly thought through and are unworkable, a little like the terrorism thing not long ago...

That Police chief in the States has the right idea....

Put em in tents - Waiouru at this time of the year is real pretty.....

Pink overalls only - no "colours" to worry about....

Work hard for your food - and pay for it out of your own pocket from the work you just did... No power or heating costs here....

Hard labour.

No TV/Computor/Cell phones - no power thing here again....

No gym/weights - just work harder. That'll get ya fit.

Chain gangs - the only acceptable gang in NZ

The prisons now are just short of multiple "star rating" accommodation - better than what most have at their places - free food, matey bonding, playing mamas and papas, weights/gyms, free accommodation with the nice trappings....

Make prisons unpleasant - so they don't want to go back there. Quite the opposite of what it is now......

[Genestho]

I hear there is a certain large group that are looking at the Sheriff Joe initiative with the pretty in pink scenario, chain gangs, tents behind barbed fences, peanut butter sammies and the disney/weather channel.

Mind numbing. low cost stuff.

How many people earn what it costs to house a prisoner per year, seems bloody ridiculous when some people earning good coin are only just hanging on, in this economical climate, and yet here we are footing this horrendous bill for convicted prisoners.



As you can see we are sharing our community with time bombs and the excuse is - sorry the prisons are too full. The cost is too much.

Yea the cost is too much. They got that right.

Think outside the square. We dont have to do the same thing over and over, as obviously what we're doing now is not working.

[Ixion]

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4598823a11.html

[awayatc]

The intimidation power/strenth of any gang lies in its numbers......
"Normal" people are very numerous, and therefor could and should be a very powerfull force.
All we have to do is start to take contol of our society again and start backing up our own.....

I have seen it happen: The Dutch said enough is enough in the late seventies when the Ambonese "militants" hijacked a train and took a Kindergarten hostage....
Squashed the whole Ambonese gang/terror movement overnight.
Normal citizens of all ages and backgrounds united and stood up physicly against the Ambonese....they trashed a very substantial gang overnight nto submission

[Dave Lobster]

The intimidation power/strenth of any gang lies in its numbers......
"Normal" people are very numerous, and therefor could and should be a very powerfull force.
All we have to do is start to take contol of our society again and start backing up our own.....

I have seen it happen: The Dutch said enough is enough in the late seventies when the Ambonese "militants" hijacked a train and took a Kindergarten hostage....
Squashed the whole Ambonese gang/terror movement overnight.
Normal citizens of all ages and backgrounds united and stood up physicly against the Ambonese....they trashed a very substantial gang overnight nto submission

The population is here is too lazy to do anything like that. And, you can't rise up against the brown people. They have rights, you know..

[98tls]

The population is here is too lazy to do anything like that. And, you can't rise up against the brown people. They have rights, you know.. Absolutly correct.Had a chuckle the other day when i heard that rabid dog Clark ranting about the shit going on in Zimbabwe,wtf was that about,shouldnt she be more concerned with whats going on in her own backyard.Gangs made up of native kiwis black or white are bad enough but yet still we let the Islanders in to fill any possible vacancies in the prison system,to make things worse whilst on the waiting list for that we work to feed the fuckers.:laugh:No wonder they love NZ.

[Patrick]

I hear there is a certain large group that are looking at the Sheriff Joe initiative ......

As you can see we are sharing our community with time bombs and the excuse is - sorry the prisons are too full. The cost is too much.

Yea the cost is too much. They got that right.

Think outside the square. We dont have to do the same thing over and over, as obviously what we're doing now is not working.

So, so true.. Bring in the Sherriff Joe initiative, lower the costs and put those costs into the hospital waiting lists for example - to the very same people who worked productive lives paying their taxes... time they reaped some of their hard earned taxes back.


Interestingly, I see a prison (near Wellington I heard) is temporarily shutting down because it doesn't have sufficient prisoner numbers to justify running full steam... Good on ya Labour.... Home Detention is working..:angry:

[Zuki Bandit]

Get the army in there to clean the filth of the streets.

On second thought, there are probably more gang members than soldiers, and the gangs would have more guns too!

[n0regret5]

shotgun, tarp, ute, shovel, concrete mixer, big plot of land somewhere..then make a big apartment blocks and hope like hell you haven't just unleashed a poltergeist situation..haha

[Mr Merde]

The population is here is too lazy to do anything like that. And, you can't rise up against the brown people. They have rights, you know..

"Come the revolution..........!!!" <_<:eek:

[peasea]

Gotta say; "It's election year folks!"

There is no quick-fix to the gang culture in any country and in NZ the cops are often ham-strung and not backed up by the courts. Then, should the cops manage to lock up some dirtbags, the perps get a life of ease with their mates. NZ is way to politically correct when it comes to housing inmates. Sure, give them blankets and a feed but anything above that is a right they forfeit when they commit a crime serious enough to warrant imprisonment.

I have read an in-depth thesis on NZ gang culture put together by a guy who is a bit of a dab hand with sociology. It points to many (but not all) gang members coming from broken/violent backgrounds, so that's all they know. Then there's the cammaraderie within a club, the mental security, a sense of belonging; something they so often didn't have at home when they were in their formative years. Then the spiral continues.

You might (might) be able to remove a kid from a violent home but many foster homes generate gang members too. Some (not all) foster parents take kids on as a means of income. The kids get the basics so the caregivers are ok in the eyes of the law, but neglect comes in many forms. If the 'olds' just sit on the couch drinking beer, tea or whatever and don't interact with the kids then the sense of belonging will fade. It's also possible the olds might both work, the kid feels (on the inside) abandoned, neglected and so on.

Little Johnny finds a few mates to bum around with after school, one has a big brother who knows a guy etc etc........hanging out is cool, then it might get up to a beer or two, smoking a joint, robbing a house to be 'the man' or feed your new pot-smoking (or p-smoking) habit and off you go. Your mates don't say anything, so there's your security net/blanket.

If you want to cruise into everyone's home and tell them how to run their lives (good grief, the nanny state is bad enough as it is) then you could probably turn some of this around. One way into people's homes is through the mass media, papers and television. These are the very clowns who deliver doom and gloom on a daily basis. Television was hijacked at a very early stage and yet it could be a wonderful tool; same goes for the Internet. The educational capabilities of tv are immense, but how much of it do you see? The Wiggles? Give me a break. Playstation games have a lot to answer for also.

An increase in the skill levels of parents could surely be achieved through the constant screening of positive, educational tv ads, snippets and/or programs, instead of the constant barrage of mindless shite we are subjected to on a daily basis. Our tv has an 'off' button and it gets well used, but so many kids (and adults for that matter) just get sucked into that jelly mindset and sit there mesmorised for hours every day. If they were already sitting there, why not try educating them.....? For those who are out on the street what's wrong with the old 'thee-strikes and you're out' method? We all make mistakes, maybe even twice but after the third.... you've had your chance.

For now, if you're going to throw the cops and the army at the problem then the courts need to back those two groups to the hilt. Currently they appear to fail at this. Things like soft sentences in soft cells, early parole, home d (where the perp's mates all come round for tea and biscuits anyway) and so on, aren't helping. You could argue that the harder crims become institutionalised and perhaps many are a lost cause but if they'd had the right message at a young age perhaps they wouldn't have got to the stage they're at now.

How does it go? "Show me the boy at seven and I'll show you the man" Something like that? You need to start on the young, by the time the teen years roll around it's going to be tough to straighten them out and even tougher when they're older adults.

New Zealand parents need to sharpen their act and look no further than their own front gate to get to the bottom of so many problems.

[svr]

Gangs satisfy fairly fundamental needs for their members - the need to belong, have respect, gain power (violence - or more typically the threat of - is the most basic form of power), status and income (drugs).
If you look the realistic chances of gang members satisfying these needs in a `legimate' mainstream manner, and look at the environments that gangs draw their members from, gang membership is pretty understandable and will remain an entrenched feature of NZ's violent underclass.
On all the media coverage I have yet to see one criminologist interviewed for opinion (there are about 5 in NZ, paid for by our taxes - gotta wonder why we never ask the experts). None would offer any simple solutions - they are smart enough to talk in `correlational' not causal terms.
I'm not encumbered by proffessional caution so I reckon:
1. With more relative poverty in NZ now we'll have more gangs - its a path we've taken and its part of the deal
2. Social welfare is poorly targeted - the only way to give kids born into 2nd generation underclass homes a chance is to provide free, quality education and healthcare for all i.e. not the `subsidized breeding' programs we have at the present. Education $$ can be justified purely in future tax take, and really cuts birth-rates
3. Deprive their illegal income source by smashing the p labs. (Use the cops giving out tickets on SH1)
4. Forget longer sentences - there's actually f.all evidence that greater (or different punishment) deters crime. Although it makes us feel better it costs shitloads and does nothing.
The same US states that enforce the death penalty (the bible / gun belt)have the worst homocide rates. People arent that rational, it seems.

[skidMark]

Put them in a paddock....give them all knifes....

Go hard boys...

[Trudes]

I find it interesting that a lot of guys that get out of the gangs tend to then turn to the church or their marae for guidance, membership and support, the things they were probably looking for within the gang, but minus the negative influences and illegal activities.
I have to wonder if the young people that are almost destined to join a gang for the things they need (belonging, role models, guidance etc) were steered towards their marae or a church or even a supportive youth group would see that they don't need to live a life involved in gangs and illegal activites to get those things. Just a thought, maybe if the community leaders and kaumatua closest to at risk youth took an active role in the community to 'recruit' these kids like gangs would, and got these kids involved in positive things if they could be steered away from the gangs.

[peasea]

Exactly; get the young'uns on the right track and you won't have to deal with wayward adults. Well, not so many of 'em.

[alanzs]

Send all the crims to an island far, far away in the vastness of the Pacific ocean. Like Australia. :2thumbsup

[spudchucka]

No gang members or their associates should receive any Govt paid benefit, housing or health care. Strip them of any assets gained through criminal activity and police the snot out of them until they conform to society's rules and then and only then assist them to reintegrate.

[svr]

Providing protection and a way out / up for the kids has to be the priority - I can understand the `giving up' on the adults (i.e. `too hard' to reform, lets just punish) mentality.

[Patrick]

....soft sentences in soft cells, early parole, home d (where the perp's mates all come round for tea and biscuits anyway) .

I think you mean "P and hash biscuits..."

[peasea]

I think you mean "P and hash biscuits..."

Thorry, spilling mishtake

[peasea]

No gang members or their associates should receive any Govt paid benefit, housing or health care. Strip them of any assets gained through criminal activity and police the snot out of them until they conform to society's rules and then and only then assist them to reintegrate.

Agreed, if the assets can be PROVEN to be ill-gotten gains. I've heard some horror stories about good being confiscated and to try and counter the claims is outlandishly expensive. I do go along with the theory though.

As for benefits? Can the lot, tomorrow, and get all bennies to re-apply under a more honest regime. (Where that will come from is anyone's guess.)

[peasea]

Send all the crims to an island far, far away in the vastness of the Pacific ocean. Like Australia. :2thumbsup

They did that hundreds of years ago; now look at it!

Somehow Australia is looking more appealing today , how's that for irony?

[Patrick]

Thorry, spilling mishtake

You pished again???

[geoffm]

Why doesn't the tax department take an interest - worked for Al Capone...
When an unemployed, never employed 30yo layabout has a $35k Harley, how hard can it be to ask him where the moeny came from,a nd do a tax audit.
Remember the IRD do not require proof - mere assertion says you are guilty.

[avgas]

i would send out 3 million envelops to NZ address with a note on the outside stating:

"DO NOT OPEN, CONTAINS HIGHLY POISONOUS SUBSTANCE THAT WILL KILL IMMEDIATELY!!!
Contains no money at all!!!"

Kill the stupid and curious all in 1 blow

[oldrider]

Why doesn't the tax department take an interest - worked for Al Capone...
When an unemployed, never employed 30yo layabout has a $35k Harley, how hard can it be to ask him where the moeny came from,a nd do a tax audit.
Remember the IRD do not require proof - mere assertion says you are guilty.

How many of the gangs are set up as "Trusts" and the trusts own all their assets?

Maybe that would avoid any personal liability! :shifty:

Legal aid is probably provided so that they get it right. :shutup: John.

[peasea]

You pished again???

No, actually been doing a phone interview and now it's too late to get sloshed. Bugger.

And; the biker I was talking to wasn't even a gang member! 70-plus, (so don't take his bikes off him!) he rides BSA Lightning's and a Matchless (at 111kph-plus) .......... his brother has strong connections to Ginger Malloy etc, interesting biking kiwiana, so no, not pissed, just busy.

[peasea]

Off to watch Prime, have to be better educated you know.

[scumdog]

Off to watch Prime, have to be better educated you know.


Watching it right now.

A mixture of bad-asses and lame-asses...

[peasea]

Watching it right now.

A mixture of bad-asses and lame-asses...
Which uniforms are which?

[scumdog]

Which uniforms are which?

No 'uniforms' - just the attitudes..

[peasea]

No 'uniforms' - just the attitudes..

Oh, ok, gotcha.
Um, no I don't.

:devil2:

[alanzs]

They did that hundreds of years ago; now look at it!

Somehow Australia is looking more appealing today , how's that for irony?

Maybe send them to prisons in the US. Scare all these wannabe gangsta's back into their mums homes real fast. Lets see how tough they are when a life sentence means life without the possibility of parole, getting their fudge packed by Bubba Mass Murderer for the next 50 years, not a few years so they can go out and kill again.

God, whoever she is, may be merciful, but the victims have no chance to be merciful again. Shame on the courts that release murderers, shame. They have blood on their hands! :Police:

Carry on...

[Teflon]

Maybe send them to prisons in the US. Scare all these wannabe gangsta's back into their mums homes real fast. Lets see how tough they are when a life sentence means life without the possibility of parole, getting their fudge packed by Bubba Mass Murderer for the next 50 years, not a few years so they can go out and kill again.
I can see where you are coming from, But know a few of the Fatu's (Sonny), theyre fucking huge bad mother fuckers.. you have to see these cunts to understand.. good boxers to

Edit: So wouldnt class them as pussies..

[mstriumph]

send em to Joe Arpaio?