Hydrogen generator?

[ukbandit]

hi guys, i have been tinkering with the idea of water for a fuel supplement
for the past couple of months.i have made good progress and hope to get all the parts this weekend for the build as i have only been useing glass jars so far and want plastic construction and fit it in my ute. have any of you tried this stuff out. once i get it right i want to make a small one for my bike, love to hear about your experiments and outcome.

[jrandom]

Presumably you're producing hydrogen gas via electrolysis?

What are you actually doing with it, though?

:blink:

Quite apart from any issues surrounding burning hydrogen gas in an internal combustion engine, if you're running an electrolysis setup off your vehicle's electrical system, you'll only achieve a net waste of energy.

[ukbandit]

Presumably you're producing hydrogen gas via electrolysis?

What are you actually doing with it, though?

:blink:

Quite apart from any issues surrounding burning hydrogen gas in an internal combustion engine, if you're running an electrolysis setup off your vehicle's electrical system, you'll only achieve a net waste of energy.

yeah at the moment got 5 small SS plates in distilled water and a tiny amount of baking soda. puts out quite a bit of gas but at the moment im drawing to much current. trying to bring down the current without losing to much production. the gas is fed through a bubbler and in to the air intake above the carb inlet. still got more to learn but it runs ok on test. have you tried any of this?

[Dave-]

Presumably you're producing hydrogen gas via electrolysis?

What are you actually doing with it, though?

:blink:

Quite apart from any issues surrounding burning hydrogen gas in an internal combustion engine, if you're running an electrolysis setup off your vehicle's electrical system, you'll only achieve a net waste of energy.

go go perpetual motion!

oh and 3 litres of hydrogen-oxygen ought to make a good bang :D

[jrandom]

have you tried any of this?

Nah, only familiar with the theory.

I'd be interested to hear details about your setup for actually running the engine on hydrogen. I like the concept; I've always thought that fuel cells were a bit naff and overcomplicated - just burnin' the shit old school style is a far more likely solution for powering vehicles.

Have you made any measurements of precisely how much hydrogen you're producing, or calculations about how far you reckon you can push the energy efficiency of the system?

Obviously powering electrolysis by burning hydrocarbons and then burning the resultant hydrogen in an engine is a bit silly as an end goal, inasmuch as throwing away half your petrol and then just using the rest in the engine would give you the same result, energy output wise, but it's a good proof of concept for the day when we'll all have our own cold fusion reactor in the backyard sitting next to a liquid hydrogen tank.

:niceone:

[ukbandit]

pretty much on theses lines, no build up of pressure as it generates gas it is sucked into the carb and mixed with your fuel stops when you turn off the engine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5GnSVOuMy4

[ukbandit]

Nah, only familiar with the theory.

I'd be interested to hear details about your setup for actually running the engine on hydrogen. I like the concept; I've always thought that fuel cells were a bit naff and overcomplicated - just burnin' the shit old school style is a far more likely solution for powering vehicles.

Have you made any measurements of precisely how much hydrogen you're producing, or calculations about how far you reckon you can push the energy efficiency of the system?

Obviously powering electrolysis by burning hydrocarbons and then burning the resultant hydrogen in an engine is a bit silly as an end goal, inasmuch as throwing away half your petrol and then just using the rest in the engine would give you the same result, energy output wise, but it's a good proof of concept for the day when we'll all have our own cold fusion reactor in the backyard sitting next to a liquid hydrogen tank.

:niceone:

still learning alot but i would say im close to a litre a minute, but need to control the current as it rises as the unit gets hot. going to weaken the solution tonight and run it for a while see what happens. i will make a crude flow meter soon and let you know. this is only an additive not a replacement fuel just to "pep it up a bit"

[ManDownUnder]

Have looked into in in reasonable depth and jrandom's right to some degree. There are some out there saying you can crack water into H2 and O2 then fuel the car on it.

If that's the claim - then BS.

The aspect I find plausible is the claim that a certain portion of the fuel (Petrol, Diesel... whatever) goes through the engine unburned and adding Oxygen to the system help achieve a complete burn thereby boosting fuel economy. THAT sounds pausible and could be achieved by adding Oxygen ... to my ming there are 3 obvious ways to do it.

1) Cracking water to liberate it (which would product small quantities... and I strongly doubt it would be enough quantity)
2) Physical compression (aka a turbo or bloer unit)
3) Chilling the air which makes the air more dense adding about 10% power output if dropped from 25 degrees C to zero (observed first hand at a thermal power station, I'm sure the maths will back me up

Hope that helps.

There are other sources of Hydrogen if you want to look at them - an example is aluminium dunked in NaOH in solution - the hydrogen will POUR off (as the heat and... watch for the explosion of corrosive liquids... trust me on this one).

In that event though, the energy liberated in the form of combustible H2 as well as heat, is merely the same energy added to the system at the time the Al was refined from it's ore at the smelter. It's not a gain in energy... just a transfer of it... so you're actually not saving the planet... unless (yet another line of argument) you consider..

Al is smelted using hydro power in NZ, so using it to produce H2 to run your vehidle on is arguably running your vehicle on Hydro power... accepting the losses along the way is guilt free because it was all just rain/gravtiy/solar powered anyway... right?... unless you consider... (here we go again...)

The power used to smelt the Al COULD have been used for other uses, but wasn't which required fossil fuels to be burned... meaning running your car on coke cans is destroying the environment.

Hope that helps? (Sorry - not trying to be a smart arse, just present all the arguments that I see, and they way they relate)

[bungbung]

meaning running your car on coke cans is destroying the environment.

Of course, since the cans have already been made, it'll be a waste of the environment not to run your car/bike on them :)

[ManDownUnder]

Of course, since the cans have already been made, it'll be a waste of the environment not to run your car/bike on them :)

LOL good point... unless you compare that to recycling them... (trying not to take it seriously - but it's a "take it seriously" kind of day for me - sorry dude)

[Fooman]

Nah, only familiar with the theory.

I'd be interested to hear details about your setup for actually running the engine on hydrogen. I like the concept; I've always thought that fuel cells were a bit naff and overcomplicated - just burnin' the shit old school style is a far more likely solution for powering vehicles.

At uni (Canterbury), there was a research project into looking at burning gaseous hydrogen for automotive use - they ended up using a wankel engine, as its combustion characteristics (long, narrow combustion chamber) was better suited to hydrogen - burnt very quickly with a fast flame front, which made it prone to pre-ignition in the inlet of a conventional motor.

As for generation by electrolysis, I think one of the nordic countries (sweden or norway?) uses off peak hydro to generate hydrogen via high temperature electrolysis - this sorta makes sense, as it is storing hydro energy in a more useful/adaptable form.

Cheers,
FM

[ukbandit]

Have looked into in in reasonable depth and jrandom's right to some degree. There are some out there saying you can crack water into H2 and O2 then fuel the car on it.

If that's the claim - then BS.

i totally agree at the about the wild claims. i look at it this way if i can
get 10% better milage a litre and that wont be much, it means i am paying
at todays price 21 cents a litre less /ltr so aim low to start and try and improve, i am aiming if possible for 30% i might be a dreamer but im having fun with all the experiments and blowing up rubber gloves and then blowing up the rubber glove good bang!:yes:

[Biggles2000]

The theroy goes that the hydrogen-oxygen gas mixture acts like a fuel scavanger just like the old lead used to in leaded fuel. This promotes better or more complete combustion and hence higher fuel efficiency. It goes without saying that the electrical energy used to crack water is the same released when the gasses are burnt, when you take into account the overall efficiency of a petrol motor running a 12v generator is likely to be less than 20%, well you can see that its not going to work for long.
There may some merit in the suggestion that the gasses promote better fossil fuel to energy conversion.
I too are thinking about building a jar and trying it out on my old trusty V8 landrover. It would be nice to try this out in a vehicle with a fuel flow sensor so you could turn the power to the jar off and on to see what the actual instantaneous reduction in l/km is.

[Mental Trousers]

Adding a bit of free hydrogen at the intake gives a much more efficient burn in a petrol engine.

The fuel/air mixture burns as you'd expect. It raises the heat and pressure in the cylinder, igniting the hydrogen which burns even hotter. The hotter burn consumes a lot of the stuff that doesn't completely burn in the initial fuel/air mix.

Extracting hydrogen/oxygen from water and running a car purely on whats extracted can't happen. In this case the fuel/air burnt provides the energy to split water into hydrogen/oxygen and also to raise the temperature/pressure to burn the hydrogen/oxygen. The pay off is a big reduction in the amount of fuel used for the same amount of energy to move the car.

[ukbandit]

Adding a bit of free hydrogen at the intake gives a much more efficient burn in a petrol engine.

The fuel/air mixture burns as you'd expect. It raises the heat and pressure in the cylinder, igniting the hydrogen which burns even hotter. The hotter burn consumes a lot of the stuff that doesn't completely burn in the initial fuel/air mix.

Extracting hydrogen/oxygen from water and running a car purely on whats extracted can't happen. In this case the fuel/air burnt provides the energy to split water into hydrogen/oxygen and also to raise the temperature/pressure to burn the hydrogen/oxygen. The pay off is a big reduction in the amount of fuel used for the same amount of energy to move the car.

the last line of this is exactly what im after! i dont expect miracles just some improvement. any one know where i can get inline check valve for this to stop flash back to the generator? plastic, cheap ,10mm or so fitting

[ukbandit]

The theroy goes that the hydrogen-oxygen gas mixture acts like a fuel scavanger just like the old lead used to in leaded fuel. This promotes better or more complete combustion and hence higher fuel efficiency. It goes without saying that the electrical energy used to crack water is the same released when the gasses are burnt, when you take into account the overall efficiency of a petrol motor running a 12v generator is likely to be less than 20%, well you can see that its not going to work for long.
There may some merit in the suggestion that the gasses promote better fossil fuel to energy conversion.
I too are thinking about building a jar and trying it out on my old trusty V8 landrover. It would be nice to try this out in a vehicle with a fuel flow sensor so you could turn the power to the jar off and on to see what the actual instantaneous reduction in l/km is.


DDDDDOOOOOOO IIITTTTTTTT!! have fun

[teamsuperoxide]

the last line of this is exactly what im after! i dont expect miracles just some improvement. any one know where i can get inline check valve for this to stop flash back to the generator? plastic, cheap ,10mm or so fitting

You're assuming that the generation of H2 via electrolysis is 100% efficient which I'm sad to say is far far from the truth. You're going to run at a loss.

[Skyryder]

I once developed a razor blade so sharp that you could divide the hydrogen from the oxygen but the men in black coats came round and pinched my 'whetstone.' Bastards.:dodge:

Skyryder

[Street Gerbil]

I think that running a petrol motor whether partly or fully on hydrogen is outright dangerous, however adding acetone vapors to the air at the intake may just do the trick (acetone boosts the octane rating and increases the burn temperature, thus giving more energy and cleaner burn).

[Swoop]

A chap at work has downloaded a set of plans for a project such as this. I am trying to keep up with what he has done so far (getting components machined and ready) as this is quite interesting.
He has decided to use his V6 Holden as the test-bed.

[ukbandit]

You're assuming that the generation of H2 via electrolysis is 100% efficient which I'm sad to say is far far from the truth. You're going to run at a loss.

i think you are missing the point here. when you run your engine you are useing about 20% of your fuel to move the thing the rest is wasted in heat and out the tail pipe. what im doing is trying to boost the fuel mix so that it burns more efficently so produces more power for the same amount of petrol, this will mean you dont have to put your hoof down so much to go the same speed. i know there is nothing 100% efficient but it makes sense that if petrol is only about (dont quote me on this ) 20% efficient and hydrogen is about 60-80% efficient when burnt then adding the 2 together must give you some improvement on your perfomence. all you are doing is using abit more current from your alternator to produce the gas, you may lose a couple of gg's from the engine but not enough to make it a negative exersise. once i have this going i will post the resuslt either good or bad. im not going to lead you guys on just to save face. by the way i wont be here this weekend going to mars in my new space ship runs on potato peel and BS.:yes::yes::yes: have fun

[peasea]

hi guys, i have been tinkering with the idea of water for a fuel supplement
for the past couple of months.i have made good progress and hope to get all the parts this weekend for the build as i have only been useing glass jars so far and want plastic construction and fit it in my ute. have any of you tried this stuff out. once i get it right i want to make a small one for my bike, love to hear about your experiments and outcome.

I've tried water as a supplement for all sorts of things but my biggest sin was supplementing Jim Beam with water. Not only did it dilute the distillate, it diluted my perception of reality. My hyrdrogen-capable preserving jar caught fire after I exercised discretion and released wind into it (so as to not offend the female I had ensnared in front of the romantic, albeit blazing, fire) and my marshmallows melted onto her pubic mound.

Nup; give me gasoline any day. It also kills the lice.

[XP@]

Interesting...

I have managed to get a small (ok tiny) flame from a couple of jars and 2* 14.4v cordless drill batteries.

I'm off to pommy land for a month at the weekend, but when I am back I have an R100GS which is going to become a hybrid...

Is it possible to beef up the charging system to cope with some additional batteries? Being a big beemer, it will carry a lot so i am not adverse to carrying a few extra batteries (up to 4 reasonable sized ones will fit in the panniers). If they could give say 50km's (my daily) with a higher output and I used wind/solar/hydro... to recharge the batteries at night.

Can the alternator be improved on?
Is it feasable to add an additional regulator/rectifier for charging the fuel batteries off a different circuit?

I've also made a loose goal to be the first to do a Rusty Nuts 1000miler on a hybrid bike.

[cs363]

A mate of mine has been tinkering with this set up too and has had his car running on it (as a supplemental system) the gas is oxyhydrogen or hydroxy which apparently is more stable than hydrogen - here are the websites he sent me on it for those interested:

www.runyourcarwithwater.com
http://water4gas.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroxy_gas

I must catch up with him and see how its all working (or if he's chernobyled his car...) lol. I don't pretend to understand all this rocket science but if the claims of 20-30% fuel savings are to be believed it could be worth a crack....

[davereid]

Water vapour is (molecule for molecule) the worst greenhouse gas, and one of the most common.

Water IMHO should be banned, thus saving the planet.

[cs363]

My theory is that all the tree huggers are causing greenhouse gasses by squeezing the trees and making them fart....thereby causing the whole issue...

Then again, as stated earlier - I'm not a scientist :)

[pzkpfw]

My theory is that all the tree huggers are causing greenhouse gasses by squeezing the trees and making them fart....thereby causing the whole issue...

Then again, as stated earlier - I'm not a scientist :)

I reckon it's all the environmentalists pissing in the wind.

[ManDownUnder]

My theory is that all the tree huggers are causing greenhouse gasses by squeezing the trees and making them fart....thereby causing the whole issue...

Then again, as stated earlier - I'm not a scientist :)

Are you guys dumb - green house gases come from Green Houses! Paint them any other colour and they're fine.

[cs363]

Are you guys dumb - green house gases come from Green Houses! Paint them any other colour and they're fine.

You could get a job as a government advisor..... :)

Anyway, what's all the fuss....global warming is great: a few degrees more ambient temperature, desert road not closed as often, beaches will be closer to home....there are so many advantages... :lol:

[ManDownUnder]

Anyway, what's all the fuss....global warming is great: a few degrees more ambient temperature, desert road not closed as often, beaches will be closer to home....there are so many advantages... :lol:

Yes but it upsets the PC brigade and the Politicians... which makes it something we should have done a lot sooner!

[cs363]

Yes but it upsets the PC brigade and the Politicians... which makes it something we should have done a lot sooner!

I'll vote for that!!! :clap: :)

[Kittyhawk]

What about magnets to fuel an engine?

[Kickaha]

Anyway, what's all the fuss....global warming is great: a few degrees more ambient temperature, desert road not closed as often, beaches will be closer to home....there are so many advantages... :lol:

Won't somebody think of the Tuatara
(http://www.livescience.com/animals/080702-male-offspring.html)

[cs363]

Won't somebody think of the Tuatara
(http://www.livescience.com/animals/080702-male-offspring.html)


Nah....it was never my favourite model Bimota.... :whistle:

[Shadows]

If they could give say 50km's (my daily) with a higher output and I used wind/solar/hydro... to recharge the batteries at night.

I'd give up the solar power recharge at night idea, if I were you. :p

[XP@]

I'd give up the solar power recharge at night idea, if I were you. :p

That is what batteries are for, charge during the day discharge at night :doh:

[cs363]

discharge at night :doh:

Hmm, that doesn't sound too good....

[Shadows]

That is what batteries are for, charge during the day discharge at night :doh:

Ahhhhh. That isn't what you said though.

[MattRSK]

Please view this before paying for plans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSnSxAMjXq8

[cs363]

Well saw said mate today, he has the system working on his car - says he's saving 25% on fuel, from just an old Agee jar and a few bits of hose and wire!

[Radar]

Well saw said mate today, he has the system working on his car - says he's saving 25% on fuel, from just an old Agee jar and a few bits of hose and wire!

Same here - I met a guy recently who built his own electrolysis system for his car and after 6 month's use he gets 20 - 25% fuel savings on trips.

He says the added Hydrogen and Oxygen enables petrol to burn more efficiently, resulting in fuel savings. The only thing that I wonder about is what the added H and O does to valves, rings, plugs, etc. Conspiracy people may claim that car manufacturers do not use electrolysis since they are in cahoots with Oil Companies, but there just may be a more basic reason, such as damage to internal engine parts.

[craigpatrick]

Hi. New to the forum. Also looking for a check valve to prevent flashbacks, any help would be appreciated as the explosions are proving to be expensive and dangerous. Just built a 28 plate stainless steel generator powered from a few 12v heavy duty batteries and charged via solar cells. Works well and produces a good amount of browns gas (HHO). Currently investigating PWM supplies to reduce current levels as research points to ths as reducing heat and prolongs discharge rate. Anyone done this yet??

[Swoop]

Right!!

I had a good chat with the guy at work who now has his hydrogen plant installed and working in his commodore.

He is using a bottle with water in the bottom as the anti-flashback device. The inlet hose from the generator, runs into the bottom of the water and the hydrogen bubbles up and into an outlet hose at the top of the container. From here it goes into the air intake system.

He is saying ~20% fuel saving and HEAPS more power!
Currently running a single unit but the plans are to fit a second.

Piccies attached.
Left one is the generator, to the right of the battery.
Right piccie just shows the top of the anti-flashback bottle peeking out from behind the air filter unit.

[UK Baz]

If you feed the HHO in before the air filter you shouldn't need flash protection, or use a bubbler but the more pipe work you have the more stored Gas you have and storage need to be kept to a minimum!

[RiderInBlack]

Your Electrodes should be Platinum because it is a catalyst for H20 = H2 + O reactions. You will get more H2 and O2 produced wth less energy required. Played with make some as a Teen back in 79-80 LOL.

[marty]

thread dredge.

sorry but i think the OP gave up after a catastrophic hydrogen explosion after the 10 cent anti blow-back valve failed unexpectedly....

[Drew]

Quite funny really.

I think it'd be easier to start flogging No2 (Nitrous Oxide) and just run it all the time.

Shit runs cold, can be stored in a tank, and has efficiency levels that are un fuckin paralleled.

[Shadows]

hi guys, i have been tinkering with the idea of water for a fuel supplement
for the past couple of months.i have made good progress and hope to get all the parts this weekend for the build as i have only been useing glass jars so far and want plastic construction and fit it in my ute. have any of you tried this stuff out. once i get it right i want to make a small one for my bike, love to hear about your experiments and outcome.

Hehehe this wasn't you was it? :facepalm:

Title: Police confirm package at Parliament not suspicious
><O:p></O:p>
Police can confirm the package discovered at Parliament shortly after midday is not suspicious.
<O:p></O:p>
Wellington Police Emergency Response Manger Acting Inspector Scott Miller says, "A person delivered a box to Parliament which contained a model of a hydrogen energy converter. The x-ray machine showed wires and coils which led staff to treat it with caution."
<O:p></O:p>
He says Police have located the member of the public who delivered the box.
It was his intention to show members of Parliament his model/invention, which is believed to convert water to energy sources.
<O:p></O:p>
Evacuated staff have now returned to Parliament.
<O:p></O:p>
ENDS