MotoGP 2011 250cc 2stroke replaced by 600cc 4 stroke, its official.

[sub_low]

"On Friday 27th June at the A-Style TT Assen the FIM made the following announcement:

The Grand Prix Commission, composed of Messrs. Carmelo Ezpeleta (Dorna, Chairman), Claude Danis (FIM), Herve Poncharal (IRTA) and Takanao Tsubouchi (MSMA), in the presence of Mr. Paul Butler (Secretary of the meeting), unanimously decided to introduce the following change to the FIM Road Racing World Championship Grand Prix Regulations.


Replacement of the 250cc class
For application from 1.1.2011, the Grand Prix Commission accepted the following proposal, taken by the majority of members of MSMA: 4-stroke engines of 600cc maximum and 4 cylinders maximum. A request will be sent to all manufacturers. The candidatures of the manufacturers interested in taking part in the new class must be sent to the FIM and Dorna by July 31, 2008 at the latest. More precise technical specifications will then be discussed and established

Bugger!!!

guess nows the time to go buy an RS250 to put in storage for a bit of fun in the future before all strokers are well and truly gone :(

[Coyote]

It doesn't make sense to have a class so close to the now 800's. Wouldn't 400-500 be a better choice? (No, I'm not biased).

They always give 4 strokes the advantage to let them dominate. It happened to Motocross sadly.

[James Deuce]

They need similar lap times to keep the interest up. Can't say it will work for me. It will no doubt be about as interesting as whatever replaced F3000 as the feeder class for F1.

You know.

Not Interesting.

Full on 400cc prototypes would make sense given Japan's licensing restrictions. Honda have no balls since Soichiro died.

What's the point of Stuporsport and Stuporstock 600s now? Talk about misdirected energy.

[sub_low]

Yeah your not wrong i cant get my head around it either. Especially when the idea to go 1litre 4stroke not long ago was due to on paper that equates to a 500 2stroke. Then they pull it back to 800 to enable the safe use of the power thus making the lap times fall. In this case it seems the other way, they are going over the mark.

I guess due to the smaller displacement of the 250cc a 500 4 stroke just wouldnt have it. who knows. One things for sure though it could mean a whole new line of 600's with some VERY cool fetures as the technology trickles down to production models. I love the sound of a 600cc
V4 sitting on my driveway.;)

[Sully60]

Some interesting points have been brought up in this Julian Ryder article...


http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Jun/080624b.htm

[sub_low]

Some interesting points have been brought up in this Julian Ryder article...


http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Jun/080624b.htm

Yes good artical, makes ya think dont it.

[Coyote]

I guess due to the smaller displacement of the 250cc a 500 4 stroke just wouldnt have it. who knows. One things for sure though it could mean a whole new line of 600's with some VERY cool fetures as the technology trickles down to production models. I love the sound of a 600cc
V4 sitting on my driveway.;)
That would be cool. A modern V4 400 would be even better (this time I'm being biased).


What's the point of Stuporsport and Stuporstock 600s now? Talk about misdirected energy.
They're so dead set on getting 4 strokes in they're not really thinking of the implications. It's like the dog with the steak looking at his reflection in the river.

[lostinflyz]

for 100000 pounds you get very little. a few scrapes of metal and a couple of days with a welding robot.

with them being budget 600's more than likely will mean that they are supersport bikes with ohlins and slicks. id rather watch supersport (most the guys this year are pretty nutter)

but either way honda will end up spending millions and dominating. how long till the budgets get to several million pounds. With any prototype machine u want to win so you keep spending till you win.

[xwhatsit]

Max four cylinders -- so these will be low-spec, standard sort of 600cc inline fours. No crazy V5 monsters like in the higher classes. Keep costs down, standard sort of engine. 400 or 500 too highly strung? Also, standard ECUs, rev limit, minimum weight according to article. Article also says, designed to be cheap bikes, €100,000, instead of €500,000 to lease even a current 125.

So cost is at heart. Mega expensive to run current 250 2T. Sure the stroker boys here will tell you `nah, it's cheap to rebuild a 2T, look at MX, 4-strokes are way too pricey to rebuild', but I suspect they're not running a front-running 250GP MotoGP team spending €4.5 million to lease this year's bikes. It makes sense -- big capacity, low-stressed (by the maximum valve lift, maximum revs limits blah blah) four-stroke engines are going to be cheaper. Don't forget it's mainstream tech as well -- I'm guessing here, but I imagine producing next year's über-fast 250 2T is sort of a niche thing, bleeding edge technology, lots of money spent on R&D. Whereas a four-cylinder four-stroke with these limits set on it -- every man and his dog is making one of those. So smaller budgets again.

Bit sad to let money dictate where a sport is going, but then again it is the feeder classes, apparently the fields are shrinking. Spend the money on the big-bucks top class. Two-strokes are great, but it's understandable.

What is odd is the apparent clash with Soopah Sprot etc. Still a fair bit of differentiation between the two -- proper race bike chassis, aero, more interesting engines (although it does say `production sourced' components). I don't think MotoGP cares much, do they?

[James Deuce]

There's far too much bollocks going into the thinking around the top end formulas.

800cc MotoGP - Do what you want. Spend as much as you want.

400cc MotoGP2 - Max 4 cyclinder. Spend as much as you want. Replacs 250 two strokes.

200cc MotoGP3 - Max 2 cylinder. Spend as much as you want. Replaces 125 two strokes.

Bit like the original GP rules. 500cc. 350cc. 250cc. 125cc. 80cc. 50cc.

Logic doesn't come into it though. "We need to maximise viewer potential."

Why? They all end up looking the same and performing the same if you "Nascar" the rules. The people who do the best job should be allowed to win. In my not so humble opinion. Close racing isn't as exciting as the technical scope and rider talent needed to win.

If you want close racing you have Superbikes which should be road bikes. No S or R Homologation specials.

[xwhatsit]

Logic doesn't come into it though. "We need to maximise viewer potential."

Why? They all end up looking the same and performing the same if you "Nascar" the rules. The people who do the best job should be allowed to win. In my not so humble opinion. Close racing isn't as exciting as the technical scope and rider talent needed to win.

If you want close racing you have Superbikes which should be road bikes. No S or R Homologation specials.
There's the cock-up, yep. Confusing what sort of viewers they have. MotoGP viewers are more like F1 viewers -- high technology, peak of human ability, blah blah. Superbike is more like tin-top racing. Close, lots of passing and leader changes, bangs and crashes.

People don't watch F1 to see Hamilton bashing Kimi off the track in a silly ill-thought out move. They watch it because it is the peak of racing -- bleeding edge.

This seems to be an effort to appeal to a different audience. Putting TV viewers above the purpose of the class is odd -- trying to poach the other class's viewers?

[Oscar]

The Technical Director of MotoGP, Mike Webb is a Kiwi and a good friend.

This class is far from decided as the factories have to present their ideas (within that formula) for discussion.

[Mort]

People don't watch F1 to see Hamilton bashing Kimi off the track in a silly ill-thought out move. They watch it because it is the peak of racing -- bleeding edge.



yes and they leave in droves when its dull racing with dull characters.

[jade]

guess nows the time to go buy an RS250 to put in storage for a bit of fun in the future before all strokers are well and truly gone :(

Im leaving the country to go do some boatbuilding in a week...
wont be back for quite a while... my RS is going into storage on wednesday, Ill never sell it

[yod]

http://www.motogp.com/en/news/2008/New+600cc+4+stroke+class+to+replace+250cc+from+201 1

[James Deuce]

The Technical Director of MotoGP, Mike Webb is a Kiwi and a good friend.

This class is far from decided as the factories have to present their ideas (within that formula) for discussion.
The 600cc framework that they are discussing just doesn't make sense. To the average viewer, whom the Marketing arm (and let's not think for a minute that the Technical guys, all due respect to Mr Webb, appear to be driving this change) are attempting to appeal, the sport has created a class that is "only" 200cc smaller than the "big" bikes. Irrespective of all the technical intricacies that will keep a separation in lap times to a substantially noticeable difference, the average viewer isn't going to see the point, even if it is explained to them. I can see eyes glazing now when I'm asked to explain that one to friends and workmates who have only a passing interest in the sport.

[Tony.OK]

I wonder if they'll go all electronic too,traction cont etc..........
Seems like they are heading down the same road as F1 did........I'd rather see the 250's because they are all about rider skill,not who's got the best electrickery.

[gammaguy]

. Don't forget it's mainstream tech as well -- I'm guessing here, but I imagine producing next year's über-fast 250 2T is sort of a niche thing, bleeding edge technology, lots of money spent on R&D. Whereas a four-cylinder four-stroke with these limits set on it -- every man and his dog is making one of those. So smaller budgets again.
erm.........correct me if i am wrong,but wasnt MOTO GP meant to be the class where cutting edge development and new ideas were developed and proved in the toughest arena of all?
Now it seems it is fast becoming a reflection of what everyone is riding on the street,so instead of leading and innovating,it is merely following.This also throws up the question,where will world superbike end up?
I reckon Soichiro Honda and Barry Sheene,to name only two,would have a few things to say about the way the "premier"road race class is heading.
This is a prime example of what happens when engineers and petrolheads are replaced by accountants and "marketing experts"

[Oscar]

The 600cc framework that they are discussing just doesn't make sense. To the average viewer, whom the Marketing arm (and let's not think for a minute that the Technical guys, all due respect to Mr Webb, appear to be driving this change) are attempting to appeal, the sport has created a class that is "only" 200cc smaller than the "big" bikes. Irrespective of all the technical intricacies that will keep a separation in lap times to a substantially noticeable difference, the average viewer isn't going to see the point, even if it is explained to them. I can see eyes glazing now when I'm asked to explain that one to friends and workmates who have only a passing interest in the sport.

The change is being driven by the Japanese factories.
The only European alternative presented was 450-550 V-Twins.

Expect the new formula to tightly regulated (intake restrictions etc) and prehaps even production based (in terms of the basic engine block).
The tension is between giving the factories what they want and cost to the private teams.
A claiming rule has been discussed.

[James Deuce]

A claiming rule has been discussed.

Oh God no.

[Crasherfromwayback]

The change is being driven by the Japanese factories.
The only European alternative presented was 450-550 V-Twins.

Expect the new formula to tightly regulated (intake restrictions etc) and prehaps even production based (in terms of the basic engine block).
The tension is between giving the factories what they want and cost to the private teams.
A claiming rule has been discussed.

My major grip is that if I wanna see bikes like that I'll go to a Superbike meeting and watch the 600 proddie based supersports race.. I love GP's because they're racing 250 strokers...that AND the GP bikes of course!

[Grub]

A claiming rule has been discussed.

Now if I knew what that meant, I might be concerned too James

[James Deuce]

If your bike is better than mine I can take it off you.

[codgyoleracer]

Will be interesting to see the field sizes in a few years time as the 4-strokes take-over. Cost to do the R&D & build/maintain, will be waaaaay greater than the 2 smokes..........

[Mental Trousers]

The 600cc framework that they are discussing just doesn't make sense. To the average viewer, whom the Marketing arm (and let's not think for a minute that the Technical guys, all due respect to Mr Webb, appear to be driving this change) are attempting to appeal, the sport has created a class that is "only" 200cc smaller than the "big" bikes. Irrespective of all the technical intricacies that will keep a separation in lap times to a substantially noticeable difference, the average viewer isn't going to see the point, even if it is explained to them. I can see eyes glazing now when I'm asked to explain that one to friends and workmates who have only a passing interest in the sport.

Just imagine the conversation between 2 Nascar diehards watching bikes.


Elma: Watcha watching?
Earl: MotoGP2
Elma: Wat do they race?
Earl: Six hunnards
Elma: Aint that those SuperSports?
Earl: Nah. They're Six Hunnards too, but different
Elma: How?
Earl: Dunno. Some tek-knee-col stuff
Elma: So they're different but the same size huh. Who makes em?
Earl: Same companies
Elma: So there's Suzuki, Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha ..... umm is that right
Earl: Yep. Near's I can figure
Elma: ......
Earl: Yep

Displacement has always been a point of differentiation between the Grand Prix classes and the Production based classes. The GP classes have traditionally been smaller engines with an equal or higher power output to the larger Production engines. That has always made the GP classes the elite. But that won't be the case any longer.

I would've thought a spec engine would be the best way to go:

All bikes will have a naturally aspirated engine with aaa stroke, bbb bore, ccc valve lift, ddd valve area, a single sparkplug per cylinder and will all use the same ECU.

[tri boy]

This just proves I'm making the right decision being involved with an expat who is trying to build up his classic two stroke racing team. (three sidecars, and an unknown qty of two wheelers).
Fuck the big players, grass roots is where it's at in all sports.
(stay tuned for further details on the team. But don't expect too much this year)

[CHOPPA]

600s are going to be great! Atleast we can see more development filter down to us, our 600cc bikes will get better and better the 250s dont have any influence on modern bikes. I guess we might see some funky engine configurations to set them apart from the supersports, its a great thing for the sport

[xwhatsit]

I guess we might see some funky engine configurations to set them apart from the supersports, its a great thing for the sport
Well no, unfortunately, as written in the article, one is limited to a maximum of four cylinders and a bunch of restrictions such as camshafts, ECU, max RPM etc. `Production sourced' components too. So they're going to be pretty standard sort of straight and vee fours.

[CHOPPA]

Well no, unfortunately, as written in the article, one is limited to a maximum of four cylinders and a bunch of restrictions such as camshafts, ECU, max RPM etc. `Production sourced' components too. So they're going to be pretty standard sort of straight and vee fours.

it would be interesting to see some v4 600s....

[NordieBoy]

Sounds far to restrictive for a MotoGP class :(
MotoGP should be along the lines of <whatever cc - go for it.

"The first proposal to surface came from a joint front of IRTA and Dorna. Basically, it is for in-line four-stroke engines with a capacity of somewhere between 625 and 650cc. Components will have to be sourced from 'production sources' and teams will be supplied with a standard control ECU and data logging to enable policing of a rev limit. Cranks, con rods, valves and camshafts will all have minimum weight limits, there will also be an overall minimum weight limit, and there will be controls on valve lift, etc all with the objective of keeping costs down."

[Ivan]

Go for the Vtwin theory and dont make them off current production based bikes make them genuine GP bikes as that is GP racing not GP2 thatis really production racing with mods.

Who cares if development filters down to road bikes thats what superbike and supersport are for GP racing is for Grand Prix bikes porpose built racers.

I mean alot of people who disagree with me probably havent ridden a GP bike I have raced a 125 GP bike and trust me there is no way to compare it to a production bike they track so well to the circuit high speed cornering Nimble steering peaky engines heaps of fun just I outgrew 125's

[svr]

Will be interesting to see the field sizes in a few years time as the 4-strokes take-over. Cost to do the R&D & build/maintain, will be waaaaay greater than the 2 smokes..........

Some respected commentators said the same thing when the premier class went 4 stroke, and then again to 800s (`Honda will win everything, no-one else will want to play, etc..'). I agreed at the time but apart from the first year it hasn't panned out that way.
Grids are full when there money going in - its not just a costs thing. Going to say 500 twins would create opportunities for the KTMs, Aprilias, Moto Morinis etc. to go racing financed / justified by the production of some cool niche-marketed race-replica road bikes. Going 600 plays into the Japanese hands.
250s are for the purists but have definitely lost wider relevance.

[CHOPPA]

Go for the Vtwin theory and dont make them off current production based bikes make them genuine GP bikes as that is GP racing not GP2 thatis really production racing with mods.

Who cares if development filters down to road bikes thats what superbike and supersport are for GP racing is for Grand Prix bikes porpose built racers.

I mean alot of people who disagree with me probably havent ridden a GP bike I have raced a 125 GP bike and trust me there is no way to compare it to a production bike they track so well to the circuit high speed cornering Nimble steering peaky engines heaps of fun just I outgrew 125's

Where do you think superbikes are getting a lot of there technology? Face it 2 stroke are dying they have to move with the times....

[Ivan]

Where do you think superbikes are getting a lot of there technology? Face it 2 stroke are dying they have to move with the times....

I know and have faced it.

I am saying stuff riding a 600cc CBR600 in a GP frame go the full way and have a GP motor to suit that it aint called moto GP for nothing

[DEATH_INC.]

600s are going to be great! Atleast we can see more development filter down to us, our 600cc bikes will get better and better the 250s dont have any influence on modern bikes.
There is the problem....the 600's are already devoloped from the 600ss bikes, we need some development in the smaller classes. 400cc would be cool, we may then see some modern 400cc race reps for the road instead of another bloody SV650 variation.....and scrap the 125's too and make 'em 250cc fourstrokes....or mix 'em both together....

[gammaguy]

250s are for the purists but have definitely lost wider relevance.
Reply With Quote

Yahuh,so we will sit there watching the races,either live on TV,captivated by the skill and daring of the riders as they dice wheel to wheel for victory,and then one of us will turn to our mate and say,"this race is boring because these bikes are not relevant to my streetbike":yawn:

yeah right

[CHOPPA]

I know and have faced it.

I am saying stuff riding a 600cc CBR600 in a GP frame go the full way and have a GP motor to suit that it aint called moto GP for nothing

ah i see yeah they fully need some fresh engine ideas, something to make a decent diff between superbikes.... Its a shame about the 2 strokes i agree! I guess 400cc bikes would be cool from a racing perspective but they would be a bit slow for gp riders and they are to much for a learner on the street and not enough for a decent rider so i doubt we will ever see any more decent 400s

[codgyoleracer]

Some respected commentators said the same thing when the premier class went 4 stroke, and then again to 800s (`Honda will win everything, no-one else will want to play, etc..'). I agreed at the time but apart from the first year it hasn't panned out that way.
Grids are full when there money going in - its not just a costs thing. Going to say 500 twins would create opportunities for the KTMs, Aprilias, Moto Morinis etc. to go racing financed / justified by the production of some cool niche-marketed race-replica road bikes. Going 600 plays into the Japanese hands.
250s are for the purists but have definitely lost wider relevance.

Take a look at the 2 stroke moto gp field size in the 90's - & compare it to today. The fact remains - that simpler technology allows more people to play in the game.
Unfortunatley MOTOGP is not about simple technology !.

If they allow unresticted 4strokes of 400 - 600cc - Then expect people like Honda to spend the 40-50 million US$ to run a two bike team (like they do in MotoGP currently) to do quite well, - & Good on em, they deserve it.

But if the same scenario enters the 250/600 class - then it would be safe to expect 40% + reduction in field size.

So the idea of heavily resticted / controlled 600's (or whatever size) is probably their only realistic option.

Glen

[CHOPPA]

Take a look at the 2 stroke moto gp field size in the 90's - & compare it to today. The fact remains - that simpler technology allows more people to play in the game.
Unfortunatley MOTOGP is not about simple technology !.

If they allow unresticted 4strokes of 400 - 600cc - Then expect people like Honda to spend the 40-50 million US$ to run a two bike team (like they do in MotoGP currently) to do quite well, - & Good on em, they deserve it.

But if the same scenario enters the 250/600 class - then it would be safe to expect 40% + reduction in field size.

So the idea of heavily resticted / controlled 600's (or whatever size) is probably their only realistic option.

Glen

Good point! yeah the gps have been a tad boring of late, only 12 riders i think it was finished last week! I guess its just way to expensive to fill the grids...

[svr]

Yahuh,so we will sit there watching the races,either live on TV,captivated by the skill and daring of the riders as they dice wheel to wheel for victory,and then one of us will turn to our mate and say,"this race is boring because these bikes are not relevant to my streetbike":yawn:

yeah right

No, if you read what I said it would have been clear that I meant commercial relevance - I'm with you on enjoying 2-stroke racing.

Bike racing 'purists' dont really pay for the moto GP circus - the factories, advertisers, tv station (=advertisers) etc. do . The extra costs / complexities would be justified by a general growing of the market.
We all know bike racing is a great spectacle - Would be great to see it eventually knock F1 off its perch!

[R6_kid]

600cc, 3cyl, diesel electric - now theres something different!

[denill]

From Soup:

This is a transcript of an impromtu press conference that happened at Mugello between HRC managing director Kosuke Yasutakeand the MotoGP press regarding the move from 250s to 600s as the MotoGP support class.

Q: Explain the position of the MSMA or Honda regarding the replacement for the 250cc class.

Yasutake: The result of the MSMA meetings will not be disclosed, I believe.

Q:Then tell us your point of view.

Y: We believe the next 250cc class is for those young riders who wish to move up to the MotoGP class. They can improve skill there.

Q: What type of machine do you think is the best for that?

Y: We think four-stroke is the future and we are moving toward that. I hope we can compete with machines which will have equal or greater performance compared to current two stroke machines.

Q: What do you think of Dorna's proposal in Le Mans? About 625-650cc?

Y: I think 625-650cc sounds like something in between. I guess they proposed the capacity due to some kind of restriction. We could understand if it were 600cc.

Q: Do you see a conflict between the promoters?

Y: If so, I can understand the background of the proposal. But I doubt any manufacturer can make such an engine (625cc).

Q: May be Kawasaki can.

Q: If it were 600cc the FIM would not allow the class as it would be in conflict with Flammini's contract. The FIM may use its veto; that is why Dorna has raised the capacity.

Y: .....

Q: If Honda is not interested, who would make the engine for the new Championship?

Y: I didn't say we are not interested. We have to have a regulation which will let us provide the hardware continuously.

Q: Do you think a 600cc in-line four would be best?

Y: If we are to provide high performance hardware with reduced cost, then 600cc four-cylinder has a lot of possibilities. Q: Do you mean in-line four or just 600cc?

Y; We are talking about the possibilities. We already have inline-four engine so that would keep costs down.

Q: Why couldn't the MSMA come up with rules which will satisfy all the manufacturers? Is it because the European manufacturers don't like the proposal made by the Japanese manufacturers and Ducati?

Y: There is an idealistic way of thinking and a realistic way of thinking. Those two cannot come close at the moment, I think.

Q: Two days ago during the MSMA meeting, Honda proposed a spec Engine and almost all the manufacturers supported the idea. Is it true?

Y: Honda has not proposed this idea.

Q: Maybe Honda didn't propose it, but there was a vote on a spec-engine rule and a majority supported the proposal. Is it true? We hear that the spec engine would be made by Honda.

Y: I understand the debate was not about whether you support the idea of a spec engine or not. However, Honda does not object to the idea of Mono Engine, I hear.

Q: Are you interested in supplying engines if the class uses a spec engine?

Y: I only heard about this idea today so we have to discuss it. But as for a spec engine, Honda wishes as many manufacturers as possible to take part in the Championship.

Q: About a year ago, Mr. Horiike, speaking personally, said he is interested in 500cc twins. What is Mr. Yasutake's opinion?

Y: If we talk of the ideal world, you can produce that kind of engine with a lot of money. But I don't think there is a manufacturer with the capacity to produce that kind of engine continuously.

Q: We hear KTM will propose such an engine.

Y: I hear the number is very limited.

Q: If we improve Fuel Injection and such, two-stroke engines might produce lower emissions. What do you think about that?

Y; There will be many possibilities and approaches. However, the MSMA decided to go for four-strokes.

Q: If you think of the cost, it might be four-stroke 600cc. But the weight of 600cc motorcycle is around 170kg at the moment and the riders from 125cc will have difficulties riding the machine.

Y: If we were to consider such a machine, we can produce a motorcycle which weighs less than 140kg.

Q: How about 125cc

Y: 125cc will become four-stroke also. However, at the moment our priority is to decide the regulations for the 250cc replacement class.

Q: What do you think of the idea of a spec ECU?

Y: Engines differ by manufacturer so it is necessary to use their original ECU in order to get the best performance. But maybe we can have a spec rev limiter.

Q: When do you think we will get a decision on this issue?

Y: At the moment we are ready to propose our idea, which we have discussed within the MSMA, to the GP Commission. We need a little more time.

Q: At the moment, we have many good riders in 250cc class. Why do you have to change the situation?

Y: We, the manufacturers, have agreed to change to four-stroke and now we are discussing how to make the move.

Q: Why is DORNA proposing the regulations? Isn't it the responsibility of the MSMA to make a proposal?

Y: DORNA is not proposing everything. We, the MSMA, are proposing what has been discussed within the MSMA. It is not that we are following the idea of DORNA.

Q: If it is four-stroke, 600cc, four-cylinder, the regulation will cause a conflict between Flammini and Dorna within the FIM.

Y: I sincerely hope that FIM, Dorna and FG Sport would have a good discussion and solve the problems.

[Crasherfromwayback]

600s are going to be great! Atleast we can see more development filter down to us, our 600cc bikes will get better and better the 250s dont have any influence on modern bikes. I guess we might see some funky engine configurations to set them apart from the supersports, its a great thing for the sport

That's what 600 supersport racing is for. They don't belong in GP's.

[steveyb]

The quickest way for the maufacturers still in 250 (and 125), ie KTM, Aprilia, Gilera, Derbi to increase the size of the grids is to re-price their bikes.
At realistic prices the grid sizes would go up by 25-50% and sales to the rest of the racing world would triple almost overnight.
E35,000 for a KTM RC125 or Aprilia RSW125 vs equv of $13,000USD for a Honda. No wonder there are not many, if any, out there.

[AllanB]

Hmm

I love the 400 cc idea proposed by several KB members.

I was pissed off with the reduction to 800cc - to me the top Moto should be BIG - even 1200-1400 cc - for F's sake it is meant to be the top racing class. just imagine 1400cc V8 engines screaming at 20,000rpm :love: