Cage license restrictions?

[Krayy]

After reading the "Most accidents happen at < 85km/h" thread in th Sports Bikes forum, it reminded me of a debate a few friends and I had around the dinner table - license restrictions for cage drivers.

We all know the limits for L and R plate bikers with regards to capacity, but cage drivers can drive hulking V8s or souped up jap pocket rockets without and formal qualification whatsoever. In fact, the impetus for the conversation was my brother relating a tale of a fatality of one of his staff when he went out and brought a Holden V8 as his first car and rammed it head first into a giant palm on the Whenuapai airbase at 120 km/h right outside the door to his workplace. He had to look at the tree that claimed the life each day on his way in and out. The upshot was that nobody was responsible for it except the dead kid. Not the dealer who sold the car to him or the licensing authority who allowed him to drive it. And don't get me started on the crazed overseas students who come here to experience freedom in all its glory.

So the question is this. Should newly licensed cage drivers be able to buy or modify any car of their choosing, or should they be limited until they have proved themself safe enough to drive without killing themselves or others on the street?

As an aside, the LTSA do have rules regarding modifactions made to cages ( http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/vehicle-safety/safer-car/modification.html ), but do these vehicles have to have any markings or windscreen stickers that verify that the mods have been approved? I don't think so.

[Yokai]

It seems strange that in biking world we have to deal with 250s until we've done the graduated learning scheme. While I recognise that having a driver in the car with the learner is a good thing, it is often the case that this doesn't happen, or the driver that is there is not responsible (having just got through their part of the GLS)

I reckon that from 15-18 you should not be able to drive anything bigger than 1600cc. You have 18months from 15-16.5 with a driver, then 6months without -THEN if you are accident free for those 6 months, you get to have a restricted license that only becomes a full license after 1 year of no offenses, and a max of 1 at-fault accident. (being rear-ended doesn't count)

Course this is all draconian and costs money, but there'd be some sort of CBTA thing that could speed this up, and you'd get extra points for doing a police driving course or something....

[Coyote]

I think they should be restricted further. 0-1300cc unmodified. Big bore exaughst = instant loss of licence

[Monsterbishi]

The size of the motor is irrelevant, it should be as per some parts of Australia, where there are strict power:weight laws, so that you can't drive anything faster than say 100hp per ton of weight.

Small engine technology has come light years in cars, just look at the likes of the 1600NA engine that Nissan used in the VZr-N1, 197bhp - bone stock!

[Blakamin]

In Victoria, its a power-to-weight ratio thing... keeps them out of V8 toranas and evil shit like that, but you also have to be 18!
should be the same here...

[geez Monsterbishi, are you reading my mind???]

[Gasman]

I'm with you. New drivers need to be severely restricted, and not just because it won't affect me! I've always thought that it's plain stupid to let novices own powerful cars. It's also crazy to allow major modifications without any form of serious scrutiny (WOF time just doesn't count). The whole system is deficient, yet politicians just don't want to know.

Having said that though, I see that the phantom crusader here in Christchurch, Tim Barnett, now wants to target loud exhausts. Well that's fine, but it still won't stop the "RAGE" jerks until the law has real teeth....BUT watch out for the side effect, namely the upcoming attempt to include motorcycles as well! We need to watch this arguement carefully, because the 'silent majority' of beige wearing invisible people don't like motorcyclists either! :stoogie:

[Hitcher]

Rather than all of this twaddle about engine size or power, licences should be issued on competency.

All of the various utterances about the road toll allegedly falling are based on better enforcement, safer vehicles and safer roads. A major area of investment that continues to remain overlooked is on the nut behind the wheel (or the handlebars for that matter).

It's too easy to get a driver's licence and the whole act of driving is trivialised by society. If people took driving seriously you wouldn't see kindy mums driving Pajeros with bullbars whilst exceeding the speed limit and straddling the centre line because they're talking on a cellphone (with a "baby on board" sign jiggling in the back window all the while).

[guzzi_nz]

I think they should be restricted further. 0-1300cc unmodified. Big bore exaughst = instant loss of licence

BE VERY CAREFULL IN WANT U WHAT THESE THINGS BITE BACK :headbang:
some of the laws :stoogie: in eupore are shit and make it very hard for motorcycles
ever more if u like to custum alittle :headbang:

[Roadrash]

i think you have to be carefull what you wish for, i have a few pommy mates and they all tell me about the heavy restrictions they have over in England,
i believe that it should be a kw rating on the vehicles for the different stages of licences for both cars and bikes. The problems are as soon as people start realising what bikes and cars are putting out the powers at be will try and limit it, ie performance mods and the like in all classes and that opens up a whole new can of worms ............. :moon:

[Magua]

A 2 litre limit sounds alright to me, 1600cc limit would be stupid. I drive a 2L Mazda 626 and it's sluggish as hell. Keep in mind cars weigh a fuck load. A power to weight ratio would work best, for my friends in their 1.6's could waste me of the line, but under a broad 2000cc limit I wouldn't be able to drive my car even with it being slower.

[Drunken Monkey]

It may sometimes be difficult to define what is 'modified' and what is not, ie non-OEM air filters may be considered modified by some, although they are still within the manufacturer's spec.

Perhaps <2000cc and no 'force fed' motors could be a good starting point. Yes, there are still a few cars left in the non-force fed 2000cc range that put out high power, but they're few and far between, and cost is often a limiting factor for new car drivers.

OTOH I would personally rather see the restrictions on bike riders loosened rather than see more ligislation introduced restricting car drivers.

[James Deuce]

It may sometimes be difficult to define what is 'modified' and what is not, ie non-OEM air filters may be considered modified by some, although they are still within the manufacturer's spec.

Perhaps <2000cc and no 'force fed' motors could be a good starting point. Yes, there are still a few cars left in the non-force fed 2000cc range that put out high power, but they're few and far between, and cost is often a limiting factor for new car drivers.

OTOH I would personally rather see the restrictions on bike riders loosened rather than see more ligislation introduced restricting car drivers.
Which would still leave 174Kw RX8s in reach of n00bs. Rotary engines are variously described in terms of capacity as the swept colume of the firing chamber, 1.5 times the swept volume of the firing chamber, or 3 times the swept volume of the firing chamber, as firing cycles happen more quickly than a four stroke reciprocating engine. NZ defines the cc rating as the swept volume of the firing chamber, making the RX8 a 1300cc car. ( I think - guessing it still shares 13B config, but with side ports)

Power to weight steps, + competency based training that is part of the school curriculum as per the US. Include basic physics and chemistry as part of the driver training, so people understand F=ma properly, and what happens to long-chain molecules that are continuously under stress.

[Coyote]

making the RX8 a 1300cc car
Bloody Hell, thats the capacity of my Laser :crazy:

[James Deuce]

Bloody Hell, thats the capacity of my Laser :crazy:

Yup - If the rotary engine config got as much development as even the two stroke, there wouldn't be any other petrol config engine out there. It's thermal efficiency is approaching 20%, with makes the average 8-10% of a reciprocating piston petrol engine look a bit weak.

[avgas]

how about this car with less than 100hp motors.
That'll learn em

[Krayy]

Yup - If the rotary engine config got as much development as even the two stroke, there wouldn't be any other petrol config engine out there. It's thermal efficiency is approaching 20%, with makes the average 8-10% of a reciprocating piston petrol engine look a bit weak.
Hells bells!! You mean you actually listened to Mr Wayper in Physics class??? I thought he was there to show you how to electrocute cockroaches or summat.

[James Deuce]

Hells bells!! You mean you actually listened to Mr Wayper in Physics class??? I thought he was there to show you how to electrocute cockroaches or summat.
We blew up a fish tank with Francium too.

[riffer]

We blew up a fish tank with Francium too.


I created a rather large explosion with Hydrogen Peroxide, some kind off zinc or aluminium (can't remember now), an old garbage can and a lighter.

Ah, those were the days. You just can't blow up anything any more without getting in trouble... :whistle:

Come to think of it, I DID get in trouble then...

[riffer]

Yup - If the rotary engine config got as much development as even the two stroke, there wouldn't be any other petrol config engine out there. It's thermal efficiency is approaching 20%, with makes the average 8-10% of a reciprocating piston petrol engine look a bit weak.

Actually, a quick google tells me the Bourke engine is the most efficient ever produced. (http://bourke-engine.com/index1.htm)

[James Deuce]

Actually, a quick google tells me the Bourke engine is the most efficient ever produced. (http://bourke-engine.com/index1.htm)
At the moment. The Rotary has had sporadic R&D spread over 50 years, with some of it lost in Eastern Bloc countries.

The Bourke is the most efficient, but the Miller cycle comes pretty close too, with a supercharged Miller cycle being very good.

[riffer]

At the moment. The Rotary has had sporadic R&D spread over 50 years, with some of it lost in Eastern Bloc countries.

The Bourke is the most efficient, but the Miller cycle comes pretty close too, with a supercharged Miller cycle being very good.

I knew you were gonna say that (in my best Judge Dredd voice).

[Magua]

Hells bells!! You mean you actually listened to Mr Wayper in Physics class??? I thought he was there to show you how to electrocute cockroaches or summat.
Mr Wayper? From Glenfield college, balding guy with a limp?

[James Deuce]

Mr Wayper? From Glenfield college, balding guy with a limp?
That would be him, 'cept when I knew him he was fresh out of teachers college with an Einstein hairdo and no limp.

[Drunken Monkey]

Which would still leave 174Kw RX8s in reach of n00bs. Rotary engines are variously described in terms of capacity as the swept colume of the firing chamber, 1.5 times the swept volume of the firing chamber, or 3 times the swept volume of the firing chamber, as firing cycles happen more quickly than a four stroke reciprocating engine. NZ defines the cc rating as the swept volume of the firing chamber, making the RX8 a 1300cc car. ( I think - guessing it still shares 13B config, but with side ports)


Stop being a difficult prick. You know that rotaries don't work the same way as piston engines. You would simply apply the same regulations as used by FIA/motorsport, ie multiply the rotary cc rating by 1.8x bringing it to 2.4L.

[James Deuce]

Stop being a difficult prick. You know that rotaries don't work the same way as piston engines. You would simply apply the same regulations as used by FIA/motorsport, ie multiply the rotary cc rating by 1.8x bringing it to 2.4L.
;)

I'd stop being a prick, but that would deny me some of life's greatest pleasures.

And that rule was bought purely to stop Mazda chucking a rotary into a Eunos 500 in the BTCC.

[Drunken Monkey]

Power to weight steps, + competency based training that is part of the school curriculum as per the US.

It may be part of the curriculum, but in which states is it actually driver licensing law?

[Drunken Monkey]

;)

I'd stop being a prick, but that would deny me some of life's greatest pleasures.


Fair 'nuff

:)

[James Deuce]

It may be part of the curriculum, but in which states is it actually driver licensing law?
Pah, Details.

[Krayy]

Mr Wayper? From Glenfield college, balding guy with a limp?
I don't remember him with a limp either. But what a great college eh? Taught me all I needed to know about knife-fighting.

[Krayy]

I went out with this chick from the UK and she wouldn't parallel park because it wasn't in the license test so she never learnt how. They do however know how to reverse around a corner from in a side street onto a main carriage way. Why, I don't know, but they do.

AFAIK, they also have specific licenses fro autos vs manuals. Anyone want to verify that?

[Yokai]

I went out with this chick from the UK and she wouldn't parallel park because it wasn't in the license test so she never learnt how. They do however know how to reverse around a corner from in a side street onto a main carriage way. Why, I don't know, but they do.

AFAIK, they also have specific licenses fro autos vs manuals. Anyone want to verify that?

No parallel parking on my test - I can still do it though... it's not difficult - if she can't do it someone show her how!
Reversing around a corner from a main into a sidestreet.
If you have an automatic license you are not allowed to drive a manual. The converse is not true.

I'm a pom.*ducks*

[Krayy]

...
Reversing around a corner from a main into a sidestreet.
...
Oh, I thought it was practice for when you miss the motorway off-ramp and had to reverse to get back to it
:eek:

[Ghost Lemur]

I'd still like to see <18y.o's forced to have a bike <= 150cc, till they turn 18, then can progress to a slightly bigger bike, or a car (both p/w ratio regulated, rather than just cc). Then they can get what they want >=20. Obviously a time frame could be in place with adult learners.

Would also like drivers to be registered (ie acc levies, etc) rather than vehicles. That way those with more than one vehicle aren't disadvantaged the way they are now.
This would have an added benefit of meaning something like an annual licence fee could be brought in (in place of current reg). The added benefits would be in that their could be discounts if you'd done an accredited course/training in the prior 12 months (good incentive to increase skill base). On the otherside of things, there could be increased costs if you've had an at fault accident, drink driving conviction (ever or in the past 12 months, 5 years, etc), increased cost based on demerits incurred in the prior 12 months.

Obviously a bit of investment would be required in the areas of training establishments etc. But the return on better drivers would be well worth the effort.

[NC]

8 hundy automatic daihatsu moves :D

[Posh Tourer :P]

There probably ought to be a kw/kg limit..... Hard to police though?

As Hitcher said, lets teach people to drive properly, and not rely on parents to teach their kids how to drive well. It'll cost us all more to get licences, but it'll cost the country less in road straightening and deaths......

[Posh Tourer :P]

I'd still like to see <18y.o's forced to have a bike <= 150cc, till they turn 18, then can progress to a slightly bigger bike, or a car (both p/w ratio regulated, rather than just cc). Then they can get what they want >=20. Obviously a time frame could be in place with adult learners.

No, it seems arbitrarily picked as to what is an adult... Why not just have a time frame based system that would ensure no-one gets a full until they are 20 anyway, eg start at 18 with the present system, or 17 and extend the system?


Would also like drivers to be registered (ie acc levies, etc) rather than vehicles. That way those with more than one vehicle aren't disadvantaged the way they are now.
This would have an added benefit of meaning something like an annual licence fee could be brought in (in place of current reg). The added benefits would be in that their could be discounts if you'd done an accredited course/training in the prior 12 months (good incentive to increase skill base). On the otherside of things, there could be increased costs if you've had an at fault accident, drink driving conviction (ever or in the past 12 months, 5 years, etc), increased cost based on demerits incurred in the prior 12 months.

Obviously a bit of investment would be required in the areas of training establishments etc. But the return on better drivers would be well worth the effort.

Good idea.... would put lasting financial consequences on having accidents, could be a good incentive not to?

[Jamezo]

Power to weight steps, + competency based training that is part of the school curriculum as per the US. Include basic physics and chemistry as part of the driver training, so people understand F=ma properly, and what happens to long-chain molecules that are continuously under stress.

I would rather they be schooled in the matter of how velocity relates to energy, Ek = 1/2 MV² , ie. a car traveling at 200km/h has 4 times the energy of a car traveling at 100km/h.

followed by a violent demonstration of being hit in the head by two identical rocks, one traveling at 10km/h, then another at 20km/h.

[James Deuce]

I would rather they be schooled in the matter of how velocity relates to energy, Ek = 1/2 MV² , ie. a car traveling at 200km/h has 4 times the energy of a car traveling at 100km/h.

followed by a violent demonstration of being hit in the head by two identical rocks, one traveling at 10km/h, then another at 20km/h.
Meh. Another redundant argument.

Beware the wrath of my banana!

[NC]

Beware the wrath of my banana!
EW CRUST!! :crazy:

[Motu]

As Hitcher said, lets teach people to drive properly, and not rely on parents to teach their kids how to drive well. It'll cost us all more to get licences, but it'll cost the country less in road straightening and deaths......

I taught myself to drive...bought a Morris Minor and just drove around for years with no licence,a 38 Chev Coupe,then when I finaly got my licence I was driving an 18 cwt International truck.

Taught both my daughters to drive,my younger girl got her learners on her 15th birthday,so did my wife.Lots of ways to do it - not doing it by the book doesn't make you a bad driver....

[Posh Tourer :P]

Lots of ways to do it - not doing it by the book doesn't make you a bad driver....

Read it again. What I said was lets not RELY on parents to teach good driving habits....
Doing it by the book at least gives you a guaranteed standard...

[SuperDave]

I reckon they should be restricted just like we are. It actually makes more sense in the case of a car because fuck ups in a car are way more likely to include injury and or death to other road users and innocents, way more so than a bike accident.

I know I made that claim without factual basis, but I'm pretty sure its the case. If I'm wrong and there is evidence to prove otherwise, please correct me.

[danb]

If they can do it for bikes they can do it for cars.
I have a 89 1.3 Toyota Corolla and it does me fine - all I need.
Anything bigger is a waits of money on the car and fuel.

[danb]

I shall go back to this post...


A 2 litre limit sounds alright to me, 1600cc limit would be stupid. I drive a 2L Mazda 626 and it's sluggish as hell. Keep in mind cars weigh a fuck load. A power to weight ratio would work best, for my friends in their 1.6's could waste me of the line, but under a broad 2000cc limit I wouldn't be able to drive my car even with it being slower.


Who cares if the car is sluggish - for someone under 20 and Learner + Restricted Licence holders, as long as they can learn safety and get from A to B its fine.

There is allot of cars less than 1.6 and they cope fine on the roads so why shouldn’t Learner else be able to cope.

Having a loud exhaust, turbo’s, fart off valves, lowering is crazy, It is just driving the "Normal" people of this county insane with the noise and putting students into further debt.

I paid 2700 for my car, had the money borrowed of my parents for a few months as I was getting less than $100 a week back then.
I have a friend now who has a shitty job, has a $9000 car and will be paying it back for years with plenty of interest and high petrol costs. By the time he wants to sell it, it will probably be less than half of what he brought it for.
SO CRAZY :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Lou Girardin]

The only thing that'll work is a power/weight ratio restriction, as it should be with bikes. Then learners could ride things like Sporties and Gooses (Geese?) Even a 1600cc unmodified turbo cage is too quick for a noobie.

[FROSTY]

an interesting discussion I thought.
My view is All L plate drivers be restricted to 1500cc or smaller and non turbo. -Theres plenty of cars under that capacity and they arent exactly slugs either.

[justsomeguy]

an interesting discussion I thought.
My view is All L plate drivers be restricted to 1500cc or smaller and non turbo. -Theres plenty of cars under that capacity and they arent exactly slugs either.

true - but I was a faster driver in my 1300cc 89 corolla than in my 94 MR2.... as I didn;t give a damn if I crashed the corolla - full insurance blah blah - and cheaper to repair.

Simply cos anything can do 80kmph and thats the fastest you can normally go in city conditions.

I think a combination of limited speed a compulsory equivalent of the BRONZ ride right ride safe and limited cc cars would be the best and safest route.

And the gubbermint can collect revenue from all three sources so hopefully it is not an impossible option.

[crazylittleshit]

It's only Fair :motu:

[branco]

In britain u can't drive a cage until u r 17, and a full license holder must be with u until you pass your test. This is the only way to go. 15 is too young to be allowed behind the wheel of a murder weapon.

[Sniper]

In New Zealand we speak and type in proper english. :Bleh:

[myvice]

an interesting discussion I thought.
My view is All L plate drivers be restricted to 1500cc or smaller and non turbo. -Theres plenty of cars under that capacity and they arent exactly slugs either.
True, she who must be obeyed has taken my Alfa to some massive speed, won’t tell me how fast, but it’s faster than the 180 limiter on her turbo sub!
Not bad for a 1500!
And like Motu, we have been showing our son the finer point of driving AND riding for years.
First time he drove a manual he was about 9 in a gravel carpark, wheel spun about 50 meters pissing himself laughing the whole way!
He is also responsible for my first and only crash as a pillion!
We have a LONG way to go!
But he will be out there in 2 years and I want him to be safe, and if that means track days and defensive driving with a bit of race and rally training thrown in then that’s what we will do!
He gets the Alfa as a first car, but no radio for the first 6 months, then that gets reviewed.
No cell phone on in the car. He has heard what I have yelled at cage's on phones and doesn’t want to be on the receiving end!
And his favourite bit, he gets a bike first.
I have always said that people should be on two wheels first, and he knows how much I hate hypocrites... Not nice, manipulative little shit!
So I get a shadow on ALL rides in a couple of years...
So do I slow down? Or will he see through that?
muttermuttertellingonmewhenigethomemumblemutter

[Pathos]

This is stupid.

Some 250cc motorcycles can go over 180kmph.

many of the accidents in the media are around 140kmph. my bike can do that. A 1500cc car can do that.

Restricted licenced drivers should have to have R plates on their so police can pull them over if they have passengers.

They should lose their license if caught with passengers (without companion).
Drivers without a license should have their vehicle impounded for several months.

They ain't gonna speed as much if the've got no buddies in the back set or no wheels.

[danb]

This is stupid.

Restricted licenced drivers should have to have R plates on their so police can pull them over if they have passengers.

They should lose their license if caught with passengers (without companion).


I think that’s a little over the top - L plate yes but no R plate.

Driving without a license and impounded vehicle - not a bad idea.

[Back Fire]

Get them cager learners out of land ships!!!