Why the WRB campaign is going nowhere. [Archive] - Page 2

Katman

7th July 2008, 15:51

The contributing factor (which ended his life) in this case would be a length of WRB. If it had been a section of Concrete Barrier, he would have stood a better than even chance and been able to reflect on the stupidity on why he ended up there in the first place. Fact is, that didnt happen.
My view is.
The wheelie (at whatever speed) didn't kill him
The landing didn't kill him.
The slide along the road that followed, didn't kill him.
Coming into contact with the WRB did kill him.

I suppose it comes down to where you want to try and introduce the change in that sequence of events. I'm trying to take it one step backwards from the WRB stage and if a change can become more widespread at that level there'd be a whole lot more lives saved than if we just concentrate at the WRB stage.

Mom

7th July 2008, 16:44

The difference being that some of us are actually trying to discuss the issue sensibly.

Meow! I am actually agreeing with you, and you come back telling me I am not being sensible?

I quote below your exact words to refresh your memory.

Which contributing factor are you talking about though?

If you're talking about the "sequence of events" - by eliminating the first contributing factor all other factors are therefore automatically eliminated.

I have bolded the words for your clearer recollection here.

Katman

7th July 2008, 17:24

I have bolded the words for your clearer recollection here.

Ok, for your clearer understanding I'll give you a sequence of events in reverse order.

Accident involving WRB - irresponsible behaviour - getting on bike to go for a ride - waking up in the morning - learning to tie shoe laces................

Now where do you think it would be sensible to start addressing that sequence of events?

Mom

7th July 2008, 17:42

Ok, for your clearer understanding I'll give you a sequence of events in reverse order.

Accident involving WRB - irresponsible behaviour - getting on bike to go for a ride - waking up in the morning - learning to tie shoe laces................

Now where do you think it would be sensible to start addressing that sequence of events?

This post is pathetic. You are ranting.

For the last time mate, read this!
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=59748

Nothing has changed since this thread was posted. Please respect this mans wishes and stop speculating about what happened.

I am yanking your chains and you are biting beautifully.

Is this a case of being able to dish it, but unable to take a bit back again?

Katman

7th July 2008, 17:59

You can bury your head in the sand if you like.

There's something that needs to be learnt from tragedies like this.

(In just the same manner as Bruce and Darryls deaths need to be used to educate riders).

Jiminy

7th July 2008, 18:12

I suppose it comes down to where you want to try and introduce the change in that sequence of events. I'm trying to take it one step backwards from the WRB stage and if a change can become more widespread at that level there'd be a whole lot more lives saved than if we just concentrate at the WRB stage.

Two hundred and fifty-five posts later, I'm still not sure I understand all this. Katman & co want riders to take more responsibility, Maha & co want to replace the WRBs or get them safer. The two are not mutually exclusive, as far as I can see.

I believe that bikers should be more responsible for their actions. But I also believe that we all make mistakes, me included (that very belief motivates me to ride more carefully every day). I would hate interfering with the campaign against the WRBs and letting them spread around the country in the name of personal responsibility just to realise one day that having safer barriers would be handy as I am sliding on the road (be)heading for a WRB.

If you don't believe in the campaign, fair enough, just stay away from it.

Katman

7th July 2008, 18:25

I would hate interfering with the campaign against the WRBs and letting them spread around the country in the name of personal responsibility just to realise one day that having safer barriers would be handy as I am sliding on the road (be)heading for a WRB.

I don't believe I'm interfering with anything. I'm actually suggesting we address an issue that, if we (and the general public) could see some real improvement in, could strengthen motorcyclists position in getting the powers that be to listen to us.

(If it's decided that WRBs are here to stay I will happily accept that, as long as consideration is given to how they can be made safer).

Number One

7th July 2008, 18:41

I don't believe I'm interfering with anything. I'm actually suggesting we address an issue that, if we (and the general public) could see some real improvement in, could strengthen motorcyclists position in getting the powers that be to listen to us.

How long do you think this 'real improvement' would take to get noticed to the point where it would as you suggest strengthen our position to get the powers that be to listen to us.

This lofty attidunal shift of the general public which you speak of wouldn't happen over night...infact I seriously doubt it would happen in anywhere near enough time (if ever - people will always hold a certain mental model about motorcyclists no matter what) to assist with the WRB issue or to save many more lives.

Your taking things 'back a step' assumes you have more sway with your target audience than I believe you do.

Focus needs to be kept on the WRB campaign - people will ride like they wanna ride despite your rantings.

Katman

7th July 2008, 18:44

Your taking things 'back a step' assumes you have more sway with your target audience than I believe you do.

No-one ever said it would be an easy ride.

:msn-wink:

Maha

7th July 2008, 19:14

Two hundred and fifty-five posts later, I'm still not sure I understand all this. Katman & co want riders to take more responsibility, Maha & co want to replace the WRBs or get them safer. The two are not mutually exclusive, as far as I can see.

I believe that bikers should be more responsible for their actions. But I also believe that we all make mistakes, me included (that very belief motivates me to ride more carefully every day). I would hate interfering with the campaign against the WRBs and letting them spread around the country in the name of personal responsibility just to realise one day that having safer barriers would be handy as I am sliding on the road (be)heading for a WRB.

If you don't believe in the campaign, fair enough, just stay away from it.

Make them safer, got to be realistic here and understand totally that they will never be removed.

I don't believe I'm interfering with anything. I'm actually suggesting we address an issue that, if we (and the general public) could see some real improvement in, could strengthen motorcyclists position in getting the powers that be to listen to us.

(If it's decided that WRBs are here to stay I will happily accept that, as long as consideration is given to how they can be made safer).

They are here to stay, wont challange that. To have no more installed and the ones already in existance made safer, is the objective.

Getting individual bikers to change thier riding style is more of and uphill battle than getting the Government to hear what we have to say on the WRB issue, which BTW has already been acccomplished! They have listened

FJRider

7th July 2008, 19:23

Just thought I'd point out that I do accept 'rider error' in some cases, I have 'been there done that' too....

I have had a "few" accidents that WERE my fault...just not watching what was happening around me. And it hurt... Some prangs I've had, I was the only one there (another story), can't blame anyone else for them...
The first thing a lot of people ALWAYS SAY (bikers too...because bikers are people) after a prang is "it wasn' my fault"....regardless. After talking it through... they admit they could have "reduced the risk" and maybe could have prevented it.
I assumed (assumptions are the mother of ALL fuckups) you were/could be one of those people.
MY APOLOGY FOR MAKING THAT ASSUMPTION.

Katman

7th July 2008, 19:25

I got it from a July 2007 SuperBike magazine article.

http://www.photoshare.co.nz/PhotoShareGallery1/100366/100974/IMG_5040ul1803.jpg

http://www.photoshare.co.nz/PhotoShareGallery1/100366/100974/IMG_5041ul6173.jpg

http://www.photoshare.co.nz/PhotoShareGallery1/100366/100974/IMG_5042ul1119.jpg

And for those that haven't already, I'd recommend everyone reads the article that dipshit has posted.

The Stranger

7th July 2008, 19:57

Two hundred and fifty-five posts later, I'm still not sure I understand all this.

Don't worry, you're not alone.
katman is even more confused than you are.

dangerous

8th July 2008, 06:33

Drove part of the Kaikoura coast yesterday... only one WRB left (in a straight section well of the road edge) and it is the 3 cable type that dosent cross over (IMO a beter idea)
Brand new barriers are most of the way through the Hunderleighs they are the old style.

:niceone:so something is working:niceone:

Wasp27

8th July 2008, 07:03

If you don't believe in the campaign, fair enough, just stay away from it.

Why enter into any correspondence with this faction????....it's obvious they're getting off on the controversy. It's quite simple...just ignore em. Better to focus on the positive....surely:yes:

MSTRS

8th July 2008, 08:45

Why enter into any correspondence with this faction????....it's obvious they're getting off on the controversy. It's quite simple...just ignore em. Better to focus on the positive....surely:yes:

There is some sense in that...but it's still better to stand up to their particular form of ignorance and bullying. Otherwise they might think we agree with their spoutings.
"All it takes...is for good men to do nothing"

Katman

8th July 2008, 08:49

their particular form of ignorance and bullying.

Oh, you poor petal, you.

:rofl:

MSTRS

8th July 2008, 08:52

Oh, you poor petal, you.

Oh that's right...I forgot to mention the self-serving holier-than-thou arrogance - as witness the above quote

yungatart

8th July 2008, 09:31

Re personal responsibility..yesterday I had the opportunity to ride my bike to farewell a very much loved friend, the last ride I would ever have with this friend after so many funfilled excursions in the past.
My friend's death affected me deeply and caused quite some loss of sleep. On top of that my daughter has been critically ill, leading to much stress and even more sleepless nights.
I chose to lend my bike to someone else and pillion instead. Not heroic or sefless, more like self preservation and common sense...the thing is, most of the people I ride with, or know from these forums, given the same shit, would have made the same decision.
Maybe I am blessed in that I surround myself with decent, sensible folk or maybe most people do exercise personal responsibility....

Katman

8th July 2008, 18:20

Maybe I am blessed in that I surround myself with decent, sensible folk or maybe most people do exercise personal responsibility....

I'd suggest it's the first option.

(There ya go MSTRS - that's the closest you'll get to a compliment from me).

:msn-wink:

FJRider

8th July 2008, 18:31

Maybe I am blessed in that I surround myself with decent, sensible folk or maybe most people do exercise personal responsibility....

Personal responsibility is at the discretion of each person. Usually dependant on percieved level of risk.

MSTRS

8th July 2008, 18:33

FJRider

8th July 2008, 19:25

So you DO worship the ground I walk on!! :killingme
Actually, what people would really like to hear you admit is that there are valid points from many of us (you included) as to how our chosen sport/mode of transport can be made safer for the individual, and by extension, all.

not quite...yet.
VALID points are made by many of "us"... but there is a difference between in the LEGAL right... therefore not my fault or rider error, if "something happens".
And
"In the right", but looking for / expecting, trouble...and when you see "it" happening... react in time, to reduce or avoid the problem.

Personal responsibility also means, when in "Areas of most known dangers"... TAKE MORE CARE !!!

Motorcycling is dangerous...thats why we love it / do it ?????

MSTRS

9th July 2008, 09:28

not quite...yet.
....

Motorcycling is dangerous...thats why we love it / do it ?????

:slap: Should have quoted...wasn't 'aimed' at you...
And yes, we know motorcycling is dangerous. But I do not accept Transit making it more so, in the name of 'safety', when there are viable alternatives or retrofittable products to shield the posts. Again, the wires aren't great but it's the posts that present the real danger (same as armco).

Katman

9th July 2008, 09:34

But I do not accept Transit making it more so, in the name of 'safety', when there are viable alternatives or retrofittable products to shield the posts. Again, the wires aren't great but it's the posts that present the real danger (same as armco).

Once again, I think you'd have more luck getting a favorable response by reining in those who are screaming to have them completely removed and actively stress to those people and Transit NZ that you're happy to compromise by having the existing barriers modified to make them safer.

Can I assume you're open to compromise?

yungatart

9th July 2008, 10:05

Can I assume you're open to compromise?

There is no way I'd let you compromise my old man.....nor would he be willing to entertain such thoughts with you:whistle: It will take much more than a compliment, trust me!

Katman

9th July 2008, 10:35

There is no way I'd let you compromise my old man.....nor would he be willing to entertain such thoughts with you:whistle: It will take much more than a compliment, trust me!

Careful, that almost sounds like we might be able to pass light hearted comments between us without biting each others heads off.

MSTRS

9th July 2008, 11:06

Once again, I think you'd have more luck getting a favorable response by reining in those who are screaming to have them completely removed and actively stress to those people and Transit NZ that you're happy to compromise by having the existing barriers modified to make them safer.

Can I assume you're open to compromise?I thought that something like compromise was all we ever asked for? Mom has quoted the stated aim several times for those a bit slow on the uptake. To paraphrase - 'We want no more WRB installed until studies are done to identify a safer system for motorcyclists'

Careful, that almost sounds like we might be able to pass light hearted comments between us without biting each others heads off.

Far cough. He whose name is legion is still warm...

vifferman

9th July 2008, 13:06

Sounds to me like the lot of you need to give up bikes, Not only do you all seem to suck at it you want to preach to everybody that they suck at it to but they just haven't realised it yet.And no salvation for anyone until they break down and admit it.
Did I say "I suck at bikes"?
Did Jim say that?
Did either of us say anyone else sucked?

I won't presume to speak for Jim (although I think I'm on the same wavelength) but my point would have to be that until you have a sober and accurate estimation of both your skills and shortcomings/limitations, you can't really become a better rider and learn from your mistakes.

If it's always someone / something else's fault, there's no acknowledgement of mistakes made, and no scope for improvement.

I can only speak for myself about MY mistakes, and it would be foolish and judgemental to point the finger at anyone else and say they need to "break down and admit" their mistakes so they can have "salvation". However, your analogy (if that's what it was) is perhaps an apt one.

As far as WRBs are concerned, I would say that we as motorcyclists can only be responsible for our own actions in keeping ourselves safe on the road. If we do all we can in this regard and are then maimed or killed because we hit a WRB, then that's an unnecessary tragedy. Transit (or whoever is responsible for ensuring that they are upholding the "Engineering" part of the "Three E's" the Gubmint espouses) will have failed in their task because they've opted for an inferior solution.

What's wrong with "Do it once, and do it right?"
And isn't saving lives and suffering better than saving money?

Headbanger

9th July 2008, 17:06

Did I say "I suck at bikes"?
Did Jim say that?
Did either of us say anyone else sucked?

Pretty much how I read it.

Have you considered knitting?

You could rant at the other knitters about the sharp ends on their knitting needles?, That is if you consider them so dumb and fucked up they can't work it out for themselves.

FJRider

9th July 2008, 18:02

Again, the wires aren't great but it's the posts that present the real danger (same as armco).

The "posts" in the cromwell gorge barriers, are made of the same stuff the marker "posts" are made of... just slightly thicker. Designed to break on impact. Only the wire remains intact.

MSTRS

9th July 2008, 18:17

Are you sure about that? They are usually made of 'frisible' steel...they will bend/break/shatter when hit by a car, but don't blink at human bodies.

Mom

9th July 2008, 20:21

The "posts" in the cromwell gorge barriers, are made of the same stuff the marker "posts" are made of... just slightly thicker. Designed to break on impact. Only the wire remains intact.

A post that snaps on impact! Perhaps you can confirm this to us? If so then why aren't all posts made of this miracle product? Please, if this is true then we have yet another string to our "make the barriers safer for all" message.

Can you please find out who I can direct this question to? This sounds like a breakthrough product! I am being serious here.

reofix

9th July 2008, 20:34

Mom

9th July 2008, 20:41

reofix

9th July 2008, 20:45

Katman

9th July 2008, 21:11

listen mate... personal attack is fine if you need it...

Get used to it reofix.

It seems it's all they have left to fall back on.

Mom

9th July 2008, 21:50

listen mate... personal attack is fine if you need it... i am just trying to contributre intelligently ... i do around 30000 k a year about half of that at legal speeds ... neverthless i take alot of care around wire barriers, icy roads, and loose units... seems only sensible

Glad to hear it. You ride as I suspect most of us here do. Sensibly and according to the conditions. Who was personally attacking you? I have read your post here and cant see who would? Couple of questions though...

You state "people hit trees and die every week" I dont hear of them, can you please provide details?

You also state "since these went up on deadly bits of nz roads they have saved a lot of lives"

Can you please also give me details?

You talk about deadly bits of NZ roads, perhaps that is a fair call, what about the installations on other roads around NZ?

Last question here you say you "i do around 30000 k a year about half of that at legal speeds"

I assume you do the rest at non-legal speeds?

Personal responsibility is all yours.

reofix

9th July 2008, 22:02

Yip... i take responsibility for what i say ... for what i do... and for what happens to me... anybody would think i wasnt a proper comrade of "its da gummints fault" party.... grow up

Mikkel

9th July 2008, 22:55

I am with katman on this... i ride like my life depends on it round wire barriers but then i ride like that all the time ... since these went up on deadly bits of nz roads they have saved a lot of lives (head ons over centre line eliminated)... one motorcyclist has died in a loss of control situation.. (so happened he hit a wire barrier)... people hit trees and die every week ... does it follow we should have a "no trees near roads ride"....

I don't know if you are just a new member or a lurker who haven't paid attention...

However, it's not that people generally disagree with what Katman is trying to get across. It's more the way he tries to get his message through that is the issue here. Combined with the fact that he's busy dissing people who actually put in an effort to try and enact a change while not putting his, proverbial, money where his mouth is.

Hopefully, anyone with more than half a brain will ride like their life depended on it - because it does. Those with less - well Darwin has got to take his share one way or the other.

listen mate... personal attack is fine if you need it... i am just trying to contributre intelligently ... i do around 30000 k a year about half of that at legal speeds ... neverthless i take alot of care around wire barriers, icy roads, and loose units... seems only sensible

You have got to be new around here if you consider Mom's post a personal attack. My only advice is HTFU - that, and take care around cars as well.

Katman

9th July 2008, 23:05

However, it's not that people generally disagree with what Katman is trying to get across. It's more the way he tries to get his message through that is the issue here.

Utter crap.

The very word Katman is enough to send some on here into a paroxysm of rage.

The fact that my delivery has in fact changed over the last few months while the reaction of the Rabid Few (T/M) remains the same shows that the (ever diminishing) 'I Hate Katman Club' is, as ever, just feverishly clutching at straws.

Mikkel

9th July 2008, 23:18

Utter crap.

The very word Katman is enough to send some on here into paroxysm.

The fact that my delivery has in fact changed over the last few months while the reaction of the rabid few remains the same shows that the (ever diminishing) 'I Hate Katman Club' is, as ever, just feverishly clutching at straws.

Perhaps that shall teach you a lesson about the challenges associated with changing people and their perceptions. Something which lies at the very heart of your "campaign" and something you will need to understand on a very intimate level if you should ever hope to succeed.

What do you yourself consider the reason for reasonable people to take exception to your reasonable message if not your delivery?

BTW have you considered that some of us might not even give a fuck about you or your opinions? That what you are spouting is quite simply neither profound nor provoking - simply a logical conclusion to engaging in any imaginable kind of risky behaviour.

But yes, your delivery has changed somewhat I'll give you that. It still leaves a lot to be desired. Keep changing though! :niceone:

Mikkel

10th July 2008, 09:18

Perhaps that shall teach you a lesson about the challenges associated with changing people and their perceptions. Something which lies at the very heart of your "campaign" and something you will need to understand on a very intimate level if you should ever hope to succeed.

What do you yourself consider the reason for reasonable people to take exception to your reasonable message if not your delivery?

BTW have you considered that some of us might not even give a fuck about you or your opinions? That what you are spouting is quite simply neither profound nor provoking - simply a logical conclusion to engaging in any imaginable kind of risky behaviour.

But yes, your delivery has changed somewhat I'll give you that. It still leaves a lot to be desired. Keep changing though! :niceone:

Your red rep was expected Katman - I'll take it as a compliment of my astute observation skills. You truly are a little scared man aren't you?
And as for there only being MSTRS, Yungatart, Mom and myself left with that opinion I shall consider myself in very good company indeed. However, I think you are incorrect about that as well.

No public comeback?

yungatart

10th July 2008, 09:25

Your red rep was expected Katman - I'll take it as a compliment of my astute observation skills. You truly are a little scared man aren't you?
And as for there only being MSTRS, Yungatart, Mom and myself left with that opinion I shall consider myself in very good company indeed. However, I think you are incorrect about that as well.

No public comeback?

My mother always said I was indecently stubborn and would never give up. She said it like it was a negative thing...I prefer to see it as a positive.
Determined and persistent, I will stick with this till my dying day or we get results, whichever comes first.
See Katman,I do surround myself with illustrious company!!:Pokey:

Katman

10th July 2008, 09:39

Determined and persistent, I will stick with this till my dying day or we get results, whichever comes first.

Maybe we're both a little more similar than either of us would care to admit.

:msn-wink:

MSTRS

10th July 2008, 09:46

Maybe we're both a little more similar than either of us would care to admit.

:msn-wink:

As much as you might wish, I'm not going to sleep with you.

Katman

10th July 2008, 09:48

And as for there only being MSTRS, Yungatart, Mom and myself left with that opinion I shall consider myself in very good company indeed. However, I think you are incorrect about that as well.

Yeah, you're right - how could I forget Boob?

:msn-wink:

Katman

10th July 2008, 09:48

As much as you might wish, I'm not going to sleep with you.

Can I have that in writing?

MSTRS

10th July 2008, 09:57

... people hit trees and die every week ... does it follow we should have a "no trees near roads ride"....
In cars perhaps, with their greater kinetic energy they will travel further off the road and into tree country. How many trees do you see down the centre of roads, and on numbered roads (Transit controlled) how many do you see with trees a couple of feet off the road edge?

listen mate... personal attack is fine if you need it... i am just trying to contributre intelligently ... i do around 30000 k a year about half of that at legal speeds ... neverthless i take alot of care around wire barriers, icy roads, and loose units... seems only sensible

I fail to understand why you would think anyone was attacking you. And what's this 'grow up' shit? Apart from the obvious stirrers, the posters in this thread and others like it, all have valid points to make, and are all reasonably (at least) passionate about safety issues. The specifics might alter, but the message is fairly similar...personal responsibility coupled with calls to stop making things more dangerous in the form of inappropriate barriers.

yungatart

10th July 2008, 10:12

Maybe we're both a little more similar than either of us would care to admit.

:msn-wink:

But MSTRS says my arse is cuter....:laugh:

Number One

10th July 2008, 16:37

Yeah, you're right - how could I forget Boob?

:msn-wink:
Hey don't forget ME TOO :msn-wink:

reofix

10th July 2008, 17:55

Number One

10th July 2008, 18:05

Stick around a while...you'll see it ain't that bad and if you had some history you'd have some context. You won't be the first noob Katman defender and you won't be the last.

If you read between the lines you'll see people don't necessarily have a problem with some of his messages just the time, place and way he couches it.

Grow up?! Ha - where's the fun in that :lol:

HAHAHAHAAA 0 bet I can guess where you two rep points have come from too! :lol:

Mom

10th July 2008, 18:06

what a cute little forum... lots of abuse (mostly self)... i see i made a classic mistake in trying to contribute .. a tight little group at war ( reasons long forgotten) .. you all enjoy the nonsense ... leave growing up till later

You have formed an interesting perspective about KB in a very short time of membership mate that is for sure.

Self abuse? I am not emo, but then again perhaps you meant wanking?

Group at war? Now see that is silly indeed, this is a very well behaved and reasoned argument taking place here, I am actually amazed that it has continued to go along with out any abuse hurled and hurt feelings (apart from your I guess) evident. Stick around a bit longer to actually really find out how bad this place can get.

Reasons long forgotten? There are no reasons for this debate apart from

"However, it's not that people generally disagree with what Katman is trying to get across. It's more the way he tries to get his message through that is the issue here."

As far as growing up is concerned, I am fairly certain that most of us are actually grown up. When you feel passionatly about something at my age mate, you tend to be in a position to actually do something about it as I am attempting to do.

It would be a pity if you dont use this thread as a benchmark for adult debate on KB. Best of luck finding too many others that have done it as well!

MSTRS

10th July 2008, 18:12

You're too nice Mom. Why don't you say what you really think...

MSTRS

10th July 2008, 18:22

what a cute little forum... lots of abuse (mostly self)... i see i made a classic mistake in trying to contribute .. a tight little group at war ( reasons long forgotten) .. you all enjoy the nonsense ... leave growing up till later

Pop over here - http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=3026 - you might find it more to your taste