Why the WRB campaign is going nowhere.

[Katman]

Until such time as motorcyclists as a whole accept that the greatest danger to our own safety comes, in fact, from our own attitudes and actions and not from cheesecutters, cagers or ginga coppers nothing is likely to change.

To fix a problem you must ultimately confront the base problem.

[White trash]

Katman, I surely admire your tenacity. No one on here repeatedly puts themself forward for the beating you clearly relish.

You da man.

You're a bit like those anti speeding campaign ads.

[yungatart]

Mate, you have no idea how the cheesecutter campaign is going.

Let me tell you, as one of the organisers of one of the "rescue helicopter fundraising and CC awareness rides" over the weekend, this thing is HUGE and about to get even bigger!

We all knew from the start that this would be a long campaign and appear to be going nowhere at times. We also knew that we had to commit for the long haul. Some of us were able to do that...we are slowly but surely getting results. Trust me on this!

[MSTRS]

here we fckn go again
Aint that the truth?
If you are not 'with us' then get the fuck out of the way.

[Sanx]

Katman, I surely admire your tenacity. No one on here repeatedly puts themself forward for the beating you clearly deserve.

Fixed your post for you, dude.

[Katman]

If you are not 'with us' then get the fuck out of the way.

See, that's half the problem. You don't even have the support of all motorcyclists.

Believe me - I'm not the only motorcyclist to have this opinion.

[BigG]

Well its hit the headlines on the news and the radio, it's big allright and it hasn't fallen on deff ears by the sounds of what I read.
When you come off its what you hit Kills you most times not the fall and I shure as hell wouldn't want to get decapatated by those wire ropes.:headbang:

[skidMark]

See, that's half the problem. You don't even have the support of all motorcyclists.

Believe me - I'm not the only motorcyclist to have this opinion.


Indeed you are not the only one.

The radio conversations with car drivers on newstalk ZB saying about what motorcylists do etc.

I am in full support of getting them banned, and full support of your persistance to get motorcyclists to clean up thier image Katman.

But.

It does not take very long to leave a bad impression. It takes a very very long time to change that impression and what is now a stereotype.

Good on ya Katman.

But those not in support of the campaign are the very bikers who are the hoons holding the campaign back from going "hey, as motorcyclists we deserve to be as safe as any other road user"

We can't do that when the very people tarnishing motorcycling are those that are not in support of the campaign.

I will leave it at that for now.

Skid.

[MSTRS]

Doesn't take half a brain to figure out what is an unsafe and short-sighted so-called 'safety' system.
The problem with that is there are a lot of people out there who fail to display even that much cranial capacity.

[skidMark]

Doesn't take half a brain to figure out what is an unsafe and short-sighted so-called 'safety' system.
The problem with that is there are a lot of people out there who fail to display even that much cranial capacity.


Too busy riding like idiots, because they are to busy holding onto thier small head they think with. going ooo ooo look at me i can ride fast.

When in the meantime you are really pissing people off.

I realised something about riding, would i do such and such overttake / lane splitting etc, if a cop was there...

If my mother was in one of the cars/grandmother/father/sister.

Because i know none of those listed above would think i was cool and "riding well"

Thats what racetracks are for.

I'm glad i woke up.

It's a shame a well raised, very polite, very responsible friend of mine was the one to loose his life to a cheesecutter, i have plenty more deserving riders of having this happen to them, but i would not wish that end to my worst enemy.

There are alot of riders out there that were more deserving of this end.

I used to be one of those riders.

Only the good die young.

[Mom]

Yes and I believe that there will be a further piece in tomorrows Herald too having just got off the phone for about the 3rd time this afternoon with the reporter.

As far as this comment goes "See, that's half the problem. You don't even have the support of all motorcyclists" I did not realise we actually needed it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about this or any issue.

Stop trolling Katman, no one is asking for your support though if I am not mistaken you attended a protest in Taupo against them not so long ago.

:done:

[madandy]

Until such time as motorcyclists as a whole accept that the greatest danger to our own safety comes, in fact, from our own attitudes and actions and not from cheesecutters, cagers or ginga coppers nothing is likely to change.

To fix a problem you must ultimately confront the base problem.

Ride as well as you like.
Sometimes shit happens and people may be killed, not due to their poor riding but by another road user and the fact a WRB was in place of a smooth concrete barrier.

Even if some naughty motorcyclist causes their own demise by loosing control and impacting a median barrier, does their action deserve death and or dismemberment by WRB?!

Serious carnage can, and has been suffered by 4 wheeled vehicles too.

I do not bebelive we should withhold our support of the Cheesecutter campaign, Katman just because we beleive others need to tone down their riding habits.

For me the two are separate issues and we should not allow the potential carnage that can be caused by WRB to exist any longer than necessary.

[Katman]

if I am not mistaken you attended a protest in Taupo against them not so long ago.

:done:

Do you truely think I am for the WRBs?????

What I'm suggesting is that there is a bigger problem that needs to be confronted and when that happens, and duly addressed, everything else will fall into place of it's on accord.

[MSTRS]

...I'm glad i woke up.... So are we. Well done on your new-found sense of responsibility and maturity.




Stop trolling Katman, no one is asking for your support though if I am not mistaken you attended a protest in Taupo against them not so long ago.



No-one ever asked directly for anyone's support. It is understood by a great many that certain things are obvious, and that those who fail to 'understand' will do so eventually. He did indeed attend the Taupo gathering and told me at the time he didn't support our cause. When I asked why he bothered turning up, I got no answer.

[Pussy]

I'm not trolling, or trying to discredit anyone, but I wholeheartedly support Katman's efforts to get motorcyclists to clean up their image

[skidMark]

Yes and I believe that there will be a further piece in tomorrows Herald too having just got off the phone for about the 3rd time this afternoon with the reporter.

As far as this comment goes "See, that's half the problem. You don't even have the support of all motorcyclists" I did not realise we actually needed it. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about this or any issue.

Stop trolling Katman, no one is asking for your support though if I am not mistaken you attended a protest in Taupo against them not so long ago.

:done:

Sorry i have to disagree with you on this one Mom.

He is not trolling at all, he is infact trying to gather support, he has attempted this multiple times, because he believes it is a worthy cause and i am on his side with it.

The problem is he gets shut down so much what is he to do, most people would go f**k ya and leave everybody to it, but he is passionaite about getting it sorted so he isnt giving up without pushing to the end an issue which i also believe has given motorcyclists a bad rep for a long time.

It is alot to as motorcyclists ask for alot to be done for us in regards to roading.

When riders ride the way they do on the road.

Idiotic actions of the few are alot more noticed than the many who are responsible. but unfortunately the majority always suffer over the foolish actions of the few, this is the way of the world unfortunately.

[PirateJafa]

What the fuck Katman? Hell I was hearing about the campaign on the radio this morning!

[dangerous]

They were talking about bikes and the barriers on the news to day... so the message is getting through be it on deaf ears or somewhat slow... but it is getting through.

Katman, point taken but you refer only to the minority.. not the majority, fuk man the kaikoura coast is covered in the WRB's and the coast road can be very slipery due to the seal sea spray etc, at times doing less than the speed limit thers every chance you could still end up on ya arse ans as these barriers are on the fog line in a lot of cases... a biker could very easly be cought up in them.

[Katman]

but he is passionaite about getting it sorted so he isnt giving up without pushing to the end

Thank you Mark.

That's it in a nutshell.

[skidMark]

What the fuck Katman? Hell I was hearing about the campaign on the radio this morning!


Yeah except if you listened to the opinions of car drivers the other day on newstalk ZB they all gave prime examples of riders being stupid. they will always remember the stupid ones over the responsible.

People are quick to complain about something.

But, they rarely will make comment when something is a good job.

We cannot expect gratitude for obeying the road rules instead of blatent disregard for them. when obeying the road rules is what we should be doing anyway, we are not doing anything beyond what we should be by obeying the road rules.

So they are not going to achknowledge it unfortunately.

EDIT: Katman check ya emails, (ya work xtra one i think)

[megageoff76]

+1 for me too.

In the past week ive seen some absolutley disgracefull riding on my daily commute. Most of them on seem to be on 250's who obviously have something to prove to either themselves and other bikers.

[Mom]

I'm not trolling, or trying to discredit anyone, but I wholeheartedly support Katman's efforts to get motorcyclists to clean up their image

He may be using the wrong vehicle to make his point though in this instance.

I too am for improving the image of motorcyclists, hence I was one of the primary instigators for the fundraising rides that took place around NZ yesterday, doing good things in the community. Positive spin and all that.

As I said to the herald reporter this afternoon, in general we (motorcyclists) take evey step we can to mitigate our personal safety when riding, but bad things can still happen that are outside of our control eg sudden extreme gusts of wind/mechanical or structural failure of our motorcycles. I acknowledge/d there are a percentage of bikers that tarnish our image by their stupidity but we can not all be held accountable for their actions. For what it is worth, he agreed.

[Tank]

Its really funny that Katman is going to cop more shit (again) in this thread than the five ATNR's riders that lost their license. Yet he is the one that is trying to get bikers to a position where they are seen in a more positive light by people.

Maybe - if more people listed to him (a little) *god forbid* and made honest attempts to ride better (better not meaning faster) - then:

a) People on bikes will be looked on in a better light by people
b) More of us will make it to the end of the year.

When I've talked to people about cheesecutters - almost without fail they say that "ohh the guy was going 150+kph" - The riders speed is the factor that they focus on - not the issue of the barriers themselves. Maybe if we are seen in a better light people may start giving a shit that the barriers are bad for bikers.

[Mom]

Sorry i have to disagree with you on this one Mom.

He is not trolling at all, he is infact trying to gather support, he has attempted this multiple times, because he believes it is a worthy cause and i am on his side with it.

The problem is he gets shut down so much what is he to do, most people would go f**k ya and leave everybody to it, but he is passionaite about getting it sorted so he isnt giving up without pushing to the end an issue which i also believe has given motorcyclists a bad rep for a long time.

It is alot to as motorcyclists ask for alot to be done for us in regards to roading.

When riders ride the way they do on the road.

Idiotic actions of the few are alot more noticed than the many who are responsible. but unfortunately the majority always suffer over the foolish actions of the few, this is the way of the world unfortunately.

Since when did you get so grown up sonny boy? LOL, I am enjoying seeing this side of you shown to more than just a few of us! Keep it up :clap:

Oh and read my next post, I am not knocking him at all.

[Katman]

As I said to the herald reporter this afternoon, in general we (motorcyclists) take evey step we can to mitigate our personal safety when riding

Do you truly believe that?

I don't.

[madandy]

"...motorcyclists as a whole accept that the greatest danger to our own safety comes, in fact, from our own attitudes and actions and not from cheesecutters, cagers or ginga coppers nothing is likely to change..."

So when do we start educating the masses?

I was under the assumption that those leading the cheesecutter campaign were infact, experienced, mature, responsible motorcyclists...

[Katman]

I was under the assumption that those leading the cheesecutter campaign were infact, experienced, mature, responsible motorcyclists...

And I haven't disputed that in the slightest.

I do however believe their efforts have been directed in the wrong direction.

[Mom]

He may be using the wrong vehicle to make his point though in this instance.

I too am for improving the image of motorcyclists, hence I was one of the primary instigators for the fundraising rides that took place around NZ yesterday, doing good things in the community. Positive spin and all that.

As I said to the herald reporter this afternoon, in general we (motorcyclists) take evey step we can to mitigate our personal safety when riding, but bad things can still happen that are outside of our control eg sudden extreme gusts of wind/mechanical or structural failure of our motorcycles. I acknowledge/d there are a percentage of bikers that tarnish our image by their stupidity but we can not all be held accountable for their actions. For what it is worth, he agreed.


Do you truly believe that?

I don't.

If you are going to quote my words, please do not be selective.

[madandy]

So while we embark on a ten year campaign to correct motorcyclists riding attitudes we accept a few deaths that may have been avoided had we actively campaigned to prevent more WRB installation and the eventual removal of said eyesore?

Can we not attempt both at the same time?

[Katman]

If you are going to quote my words, please do not be selective.

They were your words.

[MSTRS]

And I haven't disputed that in the slightest.

I do however believe their efforts have been directed in the wrong direction.

One hand washes the other. If you truly want to see bikers 'clean up their image', then organise some public rallies etc to promote this. If you are solely interested in sitting at your keyboard slagging the efforts of others on their chosen platform, then you are not doing any favours for any 'biker issue'.
Stand up and be counted (in the only way that has a chance of working), or shut the fuck up.

[NordieBoy]

When you come off its what you hit Kills you most times not the fall and I shure as hell wouldn't want to get decapatated by those wire ropes.:headbang:

The wires don't worry me much.
It's the posts that put the shits up me.

[The Lone Rider]

I haven't and don't plan on signing it.

Accidents happen, injuries don't need to. When I see majority of people with bikes not doing stupid things on their bikes, then I'd support it.

You can complain about metal nails spilt on the floor cutting into your feet at work, but if you refuse to wear the boots they tell you that you are suppose to wear you haven't much of a position to argue.

[skidMark]

I haven't and don't plan on signing it.

Accidents happen, injuries don't need to. When I see majority of people with bikes not doing stupid things on their bikes, then I'd support it.

You can complain about metal nails spilt on the floor cutting into your feet at work, but if you refuse to wear the boots they tell you that you are suppose to wear you haven't much of a position to argue.


Ahhh and what do we have to protect us like a boot to a nail when we are doing the legal speed limit or under it, and can still be killed if a car were to knock us off?

You find me the gear that will protect me against that, that of course i can still fully function to the task at hand with, as would a boot in a workplace with hazards like nails.

I really do not see your viewpoint.

[Katman]

Ahhh and what do we have to protect us like a boot to a nail when we are doing the legal speed limit or under it, and can still be killed if a car were to knock us off?



Our own common sense.

[dangerous]

I haven't and don't plan on signing it.

Accidents happen, injuries don't need to. When I see majority of people with bikes not doing stupid things on their bikes, then I'd support it.

You can complain about metal nails spilt on the floor cutting into your feet at work, but if you refuse to wear the boots they tell you that you are suppose to wear you haven't much of a position to argue.

What sort of fuking shit are you on now LLama... bloody hell at less than, shit Im not repeating my self read from the start of the thread.. if its still there.

[skidMark]

Our own common sense.


Ahhh but if a car hits us outta nowhere we are toast, ahh read my post again perhaps.

[Hitcher]

I've carved nearly 40 crap posts out of this thread to the Pointless Drivel thead in an attempt to keep this thread largely on song and relevant. If people persist in lame personal attacks and other schoolboy points-scoring, then this whole thread will be PDed. You have been warned.

[dangerous]

In the info we were given for the petition there is a picture of a car that has gone under the wire rope... the rope removed the roof of the car and Im betting the people inside it have no heads, its not just bikes that these WRB should be removed.

[Katman]

Ahhh but if a car hits us outta nowhere we are toast, ahh read my post again perhaps.

Believe me Mark, I read every post of yours these days very carefully.

I understand that WRBs aren't the best option but I am suggesting that we will not change the powers that be's minds until they see us as a more mature and responsible group of road users.

[The Lone Rider]

What sort of fuking shit are you on now LLama... bloody hell at less than, shit Im not repeating my self read from the start of the thread.. if its still there.

Can't fault you Darryl for your consistency in how you post, what you post about, and lack thereof taking it up in person :rolleyes:

Another problem with the campaign: Some people seem to not understand a good deal don't agree it's worth taking up on - to busy with their campaign to listen. Some... the rest don't mind others having an opinion that differs.

[skidMark]

Believe me Mark, I read every post of yours these days very carefully.

I understand that WRBs aren't the best option but I am suggesting that we will not change the powers that be's minds until they see us as a more mature and responsible group of road users.

I see, and that i am in agreement of.

Asking alot in an arena in which we have given nothing.

[dangerous]

Another problem with the campaign: Some people seem to not understand a good deal don't agree it's worth taking up on - to busy with their campaign to listen. Some... the rest don't mind others having an opinion that differs.
Untill some one they know is mained or killed... to late then to do anything about it... look at that car i posted above, could a been you.

PS: you want in person, well next time you got it... the hellie rescue run was not the place.

[Luckylegs]

Until such time as motorcyclists as a whole accept that the greatest danger to our own safety comes, in fact, from our own attitudes and actions and not from cheesecutters, cagers or ginga coppers nothing is likely to change.

To fix a problem you must ultimately confront the base problem.


...I understand that WRBs aren't the best option but I am suggesting that we will not change the powers that be's minds until they see us as a more mature and responsible group of road users.

And therein lies the problem, those two statements aren't the same... The former seems to imply we need to change so we never hit the WRB's whereas the latter says that we will but that we cant expect anyone to care while they think we are an unlawful bunch of sinners......

I suspect many more people will support (understand) the latter

[The Lone Rider]

PS: you want in person, well next time you got it... the hellie rescue run was not the place.

Yes... I bet it wasn't. :rolleyes:

[cowboyz]

Its really funny that Katman is going to cop more shit (again) in this thread than the five ATNR's riders that lost their license. Yet he is the one that is trying to get bikers to a position where they are seen in a more positive light by people.

Maybe - if more people listed to him (a little) *god forbid* and made honest attempts to ride better (better not meaning faster) - then:

a) People on bikes will be looked on in a better light by people
b) More of us will make it to the end of the year.

When I've talked to people about cheesecutters - almost without fail they say that "ohh the guy was going 150+kph" - The riders speed is the factor that they focus on - not the issue of the barriers themselves. Maybe if we are seen in a better light people may start giving a shit that the barriers are bad for bikers.

point noted that dangerous riding attracts more attention than responsible riding but how do you change the image by sitting back and trashing the efforts of so many to put safe riding into the public eye. I lead the experienced group on the chopper ride in Palmy on the weekend and it was fantastic to see so many bikes show up (in very dodgey weather) and all behaving themselves. Was also good to see the general public pointing at the bikes running through town.


Do you truly believe that?

I don't.

You cant make eveyone ride responsibly. There will always be the rogues out there. What you can do is organise public group rides and promote safe riding in the public eye.


One hand washes the other. If you truly want to see bikers 'clean up their image', then organise some public rallies etc to promote this. If you are solely interested in sitting at your keyboard slagging the efforts of others on their chosen platform, then you are not doing any favours for any 'biker issue'.
Stand up and be counted (in the only way that has a chance of working), or shut the fuck up.

exactly. And if rogues do attend rides and ride like dickheads then it is up to the group to stand up and say it is not acceptable. Peer pressure is the only way to get the message through.


I haven't and don't plan on signing it.

Accidents happen, injuries don't need to. When I see majority of people with bikes not doing stupid things on their bikes, then I'd support it.

You can complain about metal nails spilt on the floor cutting into your feet at work, but if you refuse to wear the boots they tell you that you are suppose to wear you haven't much of a position to argue.

So you are saying the majority of people you see riding are doing stupid things? Why dont you put numbers on that. How many people have you seen riding in the last month and how many were being irresponsible? I ride with all sorts of groups all the time and out of the (fuck knows but shitloads) of people I have ridden with I would have less than a handful of dickheads I have run into.

As for the nails on the floor thing. If someone is strutting round saying how cool they are that they are not wearing nails then do you let them know that is not ok or do you throw more nails on the floor?

[The Lone Rider]

point noted that dangerous riding attracts more attention than responsible riding but how do you change the image by sitting back and trashing the efforts of so many to put safe riding into the public eye. I lead the experienced group on the chopper ride in Palmy on the weekend and it was fantastic to see so many bikes show up (in very dodgey weather) and all behaving themselves. Was also good to see the general public pointing at the bikes running through town.

I don't - points for making some effort to making things safer but as said I think there are other ways to go and as I said at the Westpac Run when asked to sign it "I have a different opinion on them so I won't be signing".

Good tag: here we fckn go again

[cowboyz]

Oh right. So what you are saying is that a protest against the cheesecutters, people coming together all over the country involving the media and the general public to raise awareness is not doing enough so you might as well not support it. Maybe if we changed the world in 7 days it would be too long a wait and you wouldnt support that either?

[DEATH_INC.]

I would like to have the choice as to where and when I put myself at risk.
A basic human right.

[98tls]

Fwiw tonight on teletxt page 136 theres a mention "a new study is being carried out to get a better idea of what kinds of barriers are best for motorcyclists".

[Maha]

You cant make eveyone ride responsibly. There will always be the rogues out there. What you can do is organise public group rides and promote safe riding in the public eye.

exactly. And if rogues do attend rides and ride like dickheads then it is up to the group to stand up and say it is not acceptable. Peer pressure is the only way to get the message through.


It was asked of me after our 500k plus ride yesterday, ''why didnt I go faster at times''? there was no reason to, I kept to around 100/110 on open clear rode, to keep everyone together. And then I was asked '' why didnt you pass the cars on SH2''? um, because of the Double Yellow Lines? '' but there were no cars coming''..... I dont care, I wont pass on double yellow's. I know plenty who do. I didnt even take advantage of passing lanes. My main concern was to keep everyone together and, we made the whole ride in good time and on time at the other end. Cant ask for better than that.

[Headbanger]

Fwiw tonight on teletxt page 136 theres a mention "a new study is being carried out to get a better idea of what kinds of barriers are best for motorcyclists".

Big fluffy ones.....

[DEATH_INC.]

Big fluffy ones.....
A line of sheep?

[98tls]

A line of sheep? No good,my old man hit a few of them on an old 1100 Katana many years ago on the inland rd in Nth Cant,big mess and it hurt.

[cowboyz]

I get what you are saying. I designed the route for PN to some of the tightest roads around the area. Firstly because I really enjoy the tight stuff and secondly to make sure the speeds come down. The weather was the great leveler with everyone volunteering to ride alot slower but as lead I sat on 100k and let everyone else follow.

I really think one of the big obsticles is that people think "ride responsibly" means "ride like a nana" I say it all the time but speed it not a problem. The problem is the image. To clean up the image all you have to do is exercise a little restraint in built up areas, Dont do stunts in town, and be respectful of other drivers while lanesplitting/passing on the open road (which includes passing on yellows (big no no) Besides, I dont see the point in passing on yellows. It takes about 3 seconds to get past a car and (on a big bike anyhow) a very short stretch of road to do it. Just wait for the next short striaght. I dont pass on yellow and dont find myself getting stuck behind anything.

All in all, what I am saying is take it to the backroads. There is plenty of fun to be had away from watchful eyes.

[The Lone Rider]

Fwiw tonight on teletxt page 136 theres a mention "a new study is being carried out to get a better idea of what kinds of barriers are best for motorcyclists".

That is something good, so there may be some results



It was asked of me after our 500k plus ride yesterday, ''why didnt I go faster at times''? there was no reason to, I kept to around 100/110 on open clear rode, to keep everyone together. And then I was asked '' why didnt you pass the cars on SH2''? um, because of the Double Yellow Lines? '' but there were no cars coming''..... I dont care, I wont pass on double yellow's. I know plenty who do. I didnt even take advantage of passing lanes. My main concern was to keep everyone together and, we made the whole ride in good time and on time at the other end. Cant ask for better than that.

Someone buy this man a beer.

:niceone:

[Robbo]

It was asked of me after our 500k plus ride yesterday, ''why didnt I go faster at times''? there was no reason to, I kept to around 100/110 on open clear rode, to keep everyone together. And then I was asked '' why didnt you pass the cars on SH2''? um, because of the Double Yellow Lines? '' but there were no cars coming''..... I dont care, I wont pass on double yellow's. I know plenty who do. I didnt even take advantage of passing lanes. My main concern was to keep everyone together and, we made the whole ride in good time and on time at the other end. Cant ask for better than that.

Excellent response Maha and it is this attitude that has kept me out of trouble for my over forty years of motorcycling and i think that this is also what Katman is referring to in us taking responsability for our own actions and those riders around us.
There is a time and place for fast and dangerous riding and that is NOT on the public roads as they are full of many obstacles that can and will kill us if we come unstuck, even more so if it is due to our stupidity and attitude.
Ride sensible and safe and there's a very good chance that you will still be alive at 90+ to talk about "The Good Old Days" while hooning around the rest home grounds in your mobility scooters.
:scooter:

[Skunk]

That is something good, so there may be some resultsI wonder if that's because of people signing the petition (you didn't support) and the organised rises?

[skidMark]

Big fluffy ones.....

LMFAO


A line of sheep?

Crying with laughter...



No good,my old man hit a few of them on an old 1100 Katana many years ago on the inland rd in Nth Cant,big mess and it hurt.

OWIE.

Hang on..katana, inland road, groundhog day.

[skidMark]

Someone buy this man a beer.

:niceone:

Worthy of a stella artois.

[Maha]

I get what you are saying. I designed the route for PN to some of the tightest roads around the area. Firstly because I really enjoy the tight stuff and secondly to make sure the speeds come down. The weather was the great leveler with everyone volunteering to ride alot slower but as lead I sat on 100k and let everyone else follow.

I really think one of the big obsticles is that people think "ride responsibly" means "ride like a nana" I say it all the time but speed it not a problem. The problem is the image. To clean up the image all you have to do is exercise a little restraint in built up areas, Dont do stunts in town, and be respectful of other drivers while lanesplitting/passing on the open road (which includes passing on yellows (big no no) Besides, I dont see the point in passing on yellows. It takes about 3 seconds to get past a car and (on a big bike anyhow) a very short stretch of road to do it. Just wait for the next short striaght. I dont pass on yellow and dont find myself getting stuck behind anything.

All in all, what I am saying is take it to the backroads. There is plenty of fun to be had away from watchful eyes.


Excellent response Maha and it is this attitude that has kept me out of trouble for my over forty years of motorcycling and i think that this is also what Katman is referring to in us taking responsability for our own actions and those riders around us.
There is a time and place for fast and dangerous riding and that is NOT on the public roads as they are full of many obstacles that can and will kill us if we come unstuck, even more so if it is due to our stupidity and attitude.
Ride sensible and safe and there's a very good chance that you will still be alive at 90+ to talk about "The Good Old Days" while hooning around the rest home grounds in your mobility scooters.
:scooter:

Both the above post are worthy for the 'Bikers Bible''....:clap:


Worthy of a stella artois.

Bourbon or Appletons Mark........you know that!

[FJRider]

Perhaps we should start a campain to ban SHEEP from 100 metres from ANY road. I know MORE bikers hurt or killed after hitting sheep than wire rope barriers. In Central Otago, WRB's are everywhere... YET in the 23 YEARS, I have heard NO motorcyclists being killed, or injured, or even involved in "accidents" with WRB's. Queenstown is the tourist destination of MOST tour groups (four and TWO wheeled), yet NO problems down here. WHY ??? Perhaps the Katman MAY be RIGHT ( did I just say that ??? ) WRB's may NOT be the BASE problem.
Motorcycling is by nature, inherently DANGEROUS... and those that ride... percieved by general public... DITTO !!! (an image SOME try to encourage) More effort should be put into ensuring road quality/conditions are improved to a standard, where "incidents" like Chancey's, in Turangi can not be repeated. Road construction companies need to learn to do it right by us TOO !!! How many road works site's have tipped YOU up ??? Those that are EXPERIENCED riders, should see potential danger in dangerous areas... and take MORE care. Those that ARE'NT... should be taking care anyway.
More often than NOT... your destiny is controlled by your RIGHT hand...or in the BALLOT BOX. YOU WANT CHANGE......VOTE FOR IT !!!

[The Lone Rider]

I wonder if that's because of people signing the petition (you didn't support) and the organised rises?

I'll sign one that calls for harsher penalties and better policing of idiots on the road.

[cowboyz]

Perhaps we should start a campain to ban SHEEP from 100 metres from ANY road. I know MORE bikers hurt or killed after hitting sheep than wire rope barriers. In Central Otago, WRB's are everywhere... YET in the 23 YEARS, I have heard NO motorcyclists being killed, or injured, or even involved in "accidents" with WRB's. Queenstown is the tourist destination of MOST tour groups (four and TWO wheeled), yet NO problems down here. WHY ??? Perhaps the Katman MAY be RIGHT ( did I just say that ??? ) WRB's may NOT be the BASE problem.
Motorcycling is by nature, inherently DANGEROUS... and those that ride... percieved by general public... DITTO !!! (an image SOME try to encourage) More effort should be put into ensuring road quality/conditions are improved to a standard, where "incidents" like Chancey's, in Turangi can not be repeated. Road construction companies need to learn to do it right by us TOO !!! How many road works site's have tipped YOU up ??? Those that are EXPERIENCED riders, should see potential danger in dangerous areas... and take MORE care. Those that ARE'NT... should be taking care anyway.
More often than NOT... your destiny is controlled by your RIGHT hand...or in the BALLOT BOX. YOU WANT CHANGE......VOTE FOR IT !!!


While chanceyys lie down was shocking (and BTW, they are paying for it) that is another issue that needs to be addressed. This does not negate the need for awareness for the cheesecutters. It just shows there are many issues that need to be addressed.
Other issues are as follows off the top of my head.

Why do power poles have to be right on the side of the road? Surely if they were 50-100m into the paddocks then that could save alot of lives with cars having some runoff before hitting them?
Why cant roads be swept after road works?
Why cant we have free left turns at red lights? (no exclusive to bike BTW)
Why cant trackdays/rider training days become an part of getting your licence?



I'll sign one that calls for harsher penalties and better policing of idiots on the road.

Yes, and how do you define "idiots"

The pic in my profile was taken by menie (thanks dude) on a clear sunday morning on mountain road in taranaki (about 5km striaght). Meanie took the picture because I was busy getting a lecture about how dangerous and irresponsible I was being doing 121km/hr with a pillion on the back. This was being delivered by a cop that just did a U turn in front of me with such enthusiasim that he put his car half in the ditch and spread mud all over the road.

[DEATH_INC.]

Perhaps we should start a campain to ban SHEEP from 100 metres from ANY road. I know MORE bikers hurt or killed after hitting sheep than wire rope barriers.
Well, sheep are banned from the roads. Because they're dangerous..... :yawn:

[Renegade]

speaking of getting to the base of the problem, dont you just love the ad about side curtain airbags that the woman wished she had heard of before her crash?? why didnt she just give way at the intersection? wouldnt need side air bags would ya?

[FJRider]

While chanceyys lie down was shocking (and BTW, they are paying for it) that is another issue that needs to be addressed. This does not negate the need for awareness for the cheesecutters. It just shows there are many issues that need to be addressed.
Other issues are as follows off the top of my head.

Why do power poles have to be right on the side of the road? Surely if they were 50-100m into the paddocks then that could save alot of lives with cars having some runoff before hitting them?
Why cant roads be swept after road works?
Why cant we have free left turns at red lights? (no exclusive to bike BTW)
Why cant trackdays/rider training days become an part of getting your licence

TO ALL OF THE ABOVE QUESTIONS.... suprise suprise...COST !!! ... BUT which options have more chance of getting changed ???
Power and telephone are going underground and MADE to do so if they have'nt.
SUPPOSED to be required by law NOW.
A lot of intersections controlled by lights, have this already.
In leiu, of or as well as, defensive driving ??? (I vote as well as)

Awareness of ALL things that endanger OUR lives, whilst riding motorcycles, by ALL road USERS, is required. The policys and principals that endorsed their USE, and allowed their installment, need to be addressed FIRST. YOU guess where the "buck" stops ???

[dangerous]

I'll sign one that calls for harsher penalties and better policing of idiots on the road.
What about, just idiots

[gammaguy]

how about not letting them on the road until they are TRAINED not to be idiots.

i guess compulsory driver/rider training is more expensive than large speeding tickets and cheap wire barriers.

[James Deuce]

I do however believe their efforts have been directed in the wrong direction.
Working on that right now. Working on both things isn't mutually exlusive.

[imdying]

Well its hit the headlines on the news and the radio, it's big allright and it hasn't fallen on deff ears by the sounds of what I read.
When you come off its what you hit Kills you most times not the fall and I shure as hell wouldn't want to get decapatated by those wire ropes.:headbang:Personally, I hate those damn power poles. Those are evil, and a danger to motorcyclists... you guys gonna go something about those next? This should be even more important than a handful of WRBs... power poles are everywhere!

[MSTRS]

More effort should be put into ensuring road quality/conditions are improved to a standard, where "incidents" like Chancey's, in Turangi can not be repeated.


While chanceyys lie down was shocking (and BTW, they are paying for it) that is another issue that needs to be addressed. This does not negate the need for awareness for the cheesecutters.

And if she had gone into a cheesecutter as a result of her meeting with deliberately left unmarked gravel, who would still be thinking those fucken things are a good thing?
The whole point of our problem with cc is that there are numerous reasons for anyone colliding with them, yes - including being a dick (no sympathy there) - but innocent, unfortunate riders don't deserve that fate. We know there are many other ways for that fate to occur and we are just as vocal about them. It's just that cc is a static and obvious target for the safety-minded amongst us.

[The Lone Rider]

Personally, I hate those damn power poles. Those are evil, and a danger to motorcyclists... you guys gonna go something about those next? This should be even more important than a handful of WRBs... power poles are everywhere!

Yeah, and I think the paint they use on the road should be gritted paint. How wide spread is the slippery paint of death!

[BMW_RACER]

Cant be going that bad, it was all over the radio at work this morning.

Sick of hearing about it, so promplty changed to another station.

[Morcs]

Katman,

Your root cause analysis is incorrect.

A biker with an attitude is no harm to anyone (generally)

we have all ego's, its a trait of being a biker - we are superior road users.

Cars are the danger.

Ban cars, and all car-related motorcycle accidents will reduce :2thumbsup

then that leaves the very very very small amount of accidents involving just the rider - most of which the rider will pick him self up with a bruised ego and a broken bike.

[James Deuce]

then that leaves the very very very small amount of accidents involving just the rider - most of which the rider will pick him self up with a bruised ego and a broken bike.

Total bullshit. Most open road accidents are riders losing control on bends.

Most urban accidents are motorcyclists putting the rules ahead of their personal safety at intersections.

[Morcs]

Total bullshit. Most open road accidents are riders losing control on bends.

Most urban accidents are motorcyclists putting the rules ahead of their personal safety at intersections.

I agree with the second part Jim.

But are there really that many open road accidents because of corners?
I know theres always a few, but surely not as many as urban?

PS. love the avatar: 'hey-baby-wanna-have-your ass-licked-by-a-fat-man-in-an-overcoat?' :laugh:

[Katman]

Katman,

Your root cause analysis is incorrect.

A biker with an attitude is no harm to anyone (generally)

we have all ego's, its a trait of being a biker - we are superior road users.

Cars are the danger.

Ban cars, and all car-related motorcycle accidents will reduce :2thumbsup

then that leaves the very very very small amount of accidents involving just the rider - most of which the rider will pick him self up with a bruised ego and a broken bike.

You couldn't be much more wrong if you tried.

The general public's perception that motorcyclists are just a bunch of bikers with attitudes is the very reason we struggle to be taken seriously when we do have a grievance.

[James Deuce]

I agree with the second part Jim.

But are there really that many open road accidents because of corners?
I know theres always a few, but surely not as many as urban?

PS. love the avatar: 'hey-baby-wanna-have-your ass-licked-by-a-fat-man-in-an-overcoat?'

Waaaay more than you think.

Type of crash by speed limit area and crash severity, 2002 - 2006 (from Ministry of Transport Site fact sheet: http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/NewPDFs/Motorcycle-Crash-Factsheet-July-07.pdf)

Of 117 Rural fatal accidents total during that period 38 were down to riders losing control on a bend.

There were 17 of that kind of fatal accident in an urban area during the same period and 17 urban area fatal accidents at intersections during the same period.

More than twice as many fatal accidents for the period 2002-2006 just for riders losing control on a bend in a rural setting than combined for losing control on a bend and fatal accidents at intersections in an urban setting.

That's just fatals. Injury and non-injury single vehicle accidents in a rural setting will vastly outnumber their urban comparisons.

The loss of control on a bend also directly contributes to about 1/3rd of the fatal head-on collision stats as well.

[Maha]

Personally, I hate those damn power poles. Those are evil, and a danger to motorcyclists... you guys gonna go something about those next? This should be even more important than a handful of WRBs... power poles are everywhere!

Fuck yeah they should be made of rubber, non conductive and very safe.


Yeah, and I think the paint they use on the road should be gritted paint. How wide spread is the slippery paint of death!

Why would even comment on road marking paint?....if you are trying to draw parallels between paint and the 'subject matter', then you have FAILED!



Cant be going that bad, it was all over the radio at work this morning.
Sick of hearing about it, so promplty changed to another station.

With your driving abilities???..refer to this http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=76609 you for one, should be lisenting


Heres what was said yesterday about replies such as the ones above.

'' There are those around that, dont have the nouce, but what they do have is spare time. And what they would rather do with that 'spare time' is be obstructive to those who give a shit, or slag off at a cause that a percentage of us who are willing to devote our 'spare time' to. ''

[The Lone Rider]

Why would even comment on road marking paint?....if you are trying to draw parallels between paint and the 'subject matter', then you have FAILED!
''

Uh, no.

I think they should actually put grit in the paint

Haven't you ever ridden over iced and sodden arrows on a blind turn in the hills?

[BMW_RACER]

With your driving abilities???..refer to this http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=76609 you for one, should be lisenting


Heres what was said yesterday about replies such as the ones above.

'' There are those around that, dont have the nouce, but what they do have is spare time. And what they would rather do with that 'spare time' is be obstructive to those who give a shit, or slag off at a cause that a percentage of us who are willing to devote our 'spare time' to. ''


Yeah man I got so much spare time, I should be helping the WRB campaign. I could deliver flyers and everything.

But nah.

[Maha]

Uh, no.

I think they should actually put grit in the paint

Haven't you ever ridden over iced and sodden arrows on a blind turn in the hills?


Serious answer here
We dont get icey condition up here at all so no I have not....do they really have arrows on blind corners in the hills around CH-CH??
If so, then I put it to you, make some noise about it, or you could just accept thats the way it is.

[The Lone Rider]

If so, then I put it to you, make some noise about it, or you could just accept thats the way it is.

But.. but... I take responsibility for my riding.

I slow down. :cool:

[MSTRS]

But.. but... I take responsibility for my riding.

I slow down. :cool:

Yea. That'll stop anything bad happening. For sure.

[dangerous]

Yea. That'll stop anything bad happening. For sure.

He's not the full quid mate, he will learn about life one day, maybe... same goes for the darft post of imdying's poles are a problem, true but lets just start with the more basic and something that will be taken serious like the WRB's telegraph poles LMFAO.

[cowboyz]

of course it will. havent you seen the adverts on tv. Its all about the speed.

[Katman]

As far as this comment goes "See, that's half the problem. You don't even have the support of all motorcyclists" I did not realise we actually needed it.

I think that is exactly what you need to be aiming for.

Personally I think the weekends Rescue helicopter ride would have been better served had it not incorporated the WRB campaign at all. A totally self-less gesture by motorcyclists could have done wonders for the image of Motorcycling. Instead we now have some of the public refocusing on how we bring all our ills upon ourselves.

[Mom]

Personally I think the weekends Rescue helicopter ride ...


Good for you, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I personally am extremely proud of the part I played this weekend past in raising $10,000 odd for Rescue helicopters around the country, and the fact that so many of us managed to take part in rides without any stupidity or mishaps, despite the weather that some of us experienced.

The cheesecutter issue has been simmering along under the radar for months, it is now back upfront. I make no apology for that, in fact I am also feeling fairly content around my part in raising of the profile of this issue again. Your continued attempts to draw some of us into a shit fight is pathetic.

Sorry mate, not interested. Each to their own really.

[Katman]

I personally am extremely proud of the part I played this weekend past in raising $10,000 odd for Rescue helicopters around the country, and the fact that so many of us managed to take part in rides without any stupidity or mishaps, despite the weather that some of us experienced.



I, also, am extremely proud of (and grateful for) the effort that you, Maha and all the others involved put into that part of the event.

[FJRider]

And if she had gone into a cheesecutter as a result of her meeting with deliberately left unmarked gravel, who would still be thinking those fucken things are a good thing?
The whole point of our problem with cc is that there are numerous reasons for anyone colliding with them, yes - including being a dick (no sympathy there) - but innocent, unfortunate riders don't deserve that fate. We know there are many other ways for that fate to occur and we are just as vocal about them. It's just that cc is a static and obvious target for the safety-minded amongst us.

"Cheesecutters", in downtown Turangi.... ???? DONT THINK SO !!!!

[yungatart]

Katman, given all the national publicity about cheesecutters over the last few days, do you still say our campaign is going nowhere?

[imdying]

Katman, given all the national publicity about cheesecutters over the last few days, do you still say our campaign is going nowhere?

Stood up and took a quick poll of the office (10 here at the moment)... none knew what I was talking about. Sounds like it's going well :zzzz:

[Nasty]

Stood up and took a quick poll of the office (10 here at the moment)... none knew what I was talking about. Sounds like it's going well :zzzz:

Did the same here and everyone know ... maybe you haven't helped to raise awareness?

[MSTRS]

"Cheesecutters", in downtown Turangi.... ???? DONT THINK SO !!!!So? If cc are where 'it' happens, they will likely be a factor in the aftermath.


Stood up and took a quick poll of the office (10 here at the moment)... none knew what I was talking about. Sounds like it's going well :zzzz:
And as a dedicated, committed and safety-conscious biker...whose fault is that?

[The Lone Rider]

He's not the full quid mate, he will learn about life one day, maybe... same goes for the darft post of Imdieing's poles are a problem, true but lets just start with the more basic and something that will be taken serious like the WRB's telegraph poles LMFAO.

It's ok - cowards have more to prove. :pinch:

So I beg you Darryl, when you get a working bike... DON'T slow down. :tugger:

[Colapop]

When I read the first post of this thread, my immediate thougfht was that the writer was/is obviously a cynical antagonist aiming for a bite. Unfortunately his sentiments have been confirmed by at least one idiot in Dunedin.

[MSTRS]

When I read the first post of this thread, my immediate thougfht was that the writer was/is obviously a cynical antagonist aiming for a bite. Unfortunately his sentiments have been confirmed by at least one idiot in Dunedin.

He is. The really unfortunate thing is that 1 idiot is just that...1.

[imdying]

Did the same here and everyone know ... maybe you haven't helped to raise awareness?Nothing to raise awareness on imho.
And as a dedicated, committed and safety-conscious biker...whose fault is that?Only concentrating on making them aware of the true safety issues sorry.

[CookMySock]

grumble, too many good points to agree with them all, and too many great sayings to green everyone on, and too many pages to read about everyone agreeing with everyone else.

So we ALL AGREE that we are AGAINST cheese cutters ? Katman as well ?

So we ALL AGREE that when bikers misbehave they die ?

Do we ALL AGREE that we will never misbehave again ? :crazy:

So whats next ? Run a poll ? On what topic ? Then what do we DO about it, whatever "it" is ? Discussing it on an Internet Forum is Talk on the Cereal box - CheeseCutter campaign is out there walking the talk - what is this campaign called, and what is its' next step ?


DB

[Katman]

So we ALL AGREE that we are AGAINST cheese cutters ? Katman as well ?



No, I'm not against the WRB's. I believe the anti-WRB lobby needs to pull back from demanding their removal and concentrate on requesting that they be modified to make them safer.

[Mom]

CheeseCutter campaign is out there walking the talk - what is this campaign called, and what is its' next step ?
DB


The campaign is called

Cheesecutter Campaign Group - safer barriers for all road users.

Next step is to gather up all the petition signatures that were generated by these latest awareness rides and the subsequent publicity, count them into the tally, and continue to encourage people to sign. We have electrostatic stickers available to people to display on their bikes/cars etc. Flick me a PM if you want one.

Have a look at www.cheesecutter.co.nz it has a heap of information on it.

Actively encourage people to write to their MP's, Transit NZ, appropriate Ministers of Paliament and their opposition counterparts, requesting them to look into the road barrier issue. Letters to newspaper editors are also encouraged. We have gathered a bit of momentum in the past week or so, it would be a shame to see it slow down.

Approaches to other road user groups that are also vulnerable to these WRMB's like Heavy Transport Industry, Tour Bus companies, sports car enthusiasts to encourage them to join up with the push. This is not just a motorcycle thing, it is just that we are particularly vulnerable to the slicing effects of the ropes and posts.

[madandy]

That could work...
There are those things that cover the posts and fill the gap between the ground and the wires.
I still don't like the wires but the Katman has a valid point.

Edit: Thanks Mom.
I have started posting links and info on some car club forums I frequent.

[Mom]

No, I'm not against the WRB's. I believe the anti-WRB lobby need to pull back from demanding their removal and concentrate on requesting that they be modified to make them safer.

If you read what the petition is actually asking for, it clearly says a moratorium on the further installation of these things until a full safety investigation is completed. There is no request to have them removed or anything else.

I paste it here for everyones information and clarification.

We, the undersigned, are concerned about the safety of wire traffic barriers and their increasing presence on New Zealand roads and highways. We urge Transit New Zealand, Land Transport New Zealand and the Ministry of Transport to place a moratorium on the use of such barriers until a comprehensive review is undertaken into the effectiveness and safety of wire traffic barriers to all road users, particularly motorcyclists.

[Katman]

If you read what the petition is actually asking for, it clearly says a moratorium on the further installation of these things until a full safety investigation is completed. There is no request to have them removed or anything else.

I paste it here for everyones information and clarification.

We, the undersigned, are concerned about the safety of wire traffic barriers and their increasing presence on New Zealand roads and highways. We urge Transit New Zealand, Land Transport New Zealand and the Ministry of Transport to place a moratorium on the use of such barriers until a comprehensive review is undertaken into the effectiveness and safety of wire traffic barriers to all road users, particularly motorcyclists.

And you will find my name (signed online months ago) on that petition.

It's all the foaming at the mouth that's being displayed that sets my teeth on edge.

[Horse]

It's all the foaming at the mouth that's being displayed that sets my teeth on edge.

Magnetic anomaly readings are through the roof! High-concentration irony deposit detected!

[MSTRS]

So people who are passionate about something are now 'foaming at the mouth'? Hmmm....now where have I seen that phenomenon before?

[Katman]

So people who are passionate about something are now 'foaming at the mouth'? Hmmm....now where have I seen that phenomenon before?

If you're suggesting that I have ever foamed at the mouth when trying to get a point across you're very much mistaken. The only foaming that goes on in that instance is from the likes of yourself and Boob who try to win the argument by calling to have me silenced.

(The only time I'll concede to foaming at the mouth is when you succeed in getting me silenced.) :msn-wink:

[MSTRS]

If you're suggesting that I have ever foamed at the mouth when trying to get a point across you're very much mistaken. The only foaming that goes on in that instance is from the likes of yourself and Boob who try to win the argument by calling to have me silenced.

(The only time I'll concede to foaming at the mouth is when you succeed in getting me silenced.) :msn-wink:

There you go again. Popping yourself up on the PedestalOfRighteousnessAndNeverDisplayBadBehaviour .
News Flash. Whether we agree with all, some or none of what you say...we recognise you under that halo you purchased from some dodgy Nigerian.
:bleh::whistle:

[yungatart]

Katman, given all the national publicity about cheesecutters over the last few days, do you still say our campaign is going nowhere?

And, again, Katman, I ask the question. Do you still say our campaign is going nowhere, given all the national publicity it has had in the last few days?

[Maha]

No, I'm not against the WRB's. I believe the anti-WRB lobby need to pull back from demanding their removal and concentrate on requesting that they be modified to make them safer.

Theres is no demanding .....thats for kids when they want an ice-cream.
The second part of your statement, is on the money, and the Adult way to tackle this issue. And is exactly the line that is taken, we are all grown ups right?
BTW.....I like Hokey Pokey.

[Katman]

BTW.....I like Hokey Pokey.

I shall come bearing gifts.

:msn-wink:

[dangerous]

He's not the full quid mate, he will learn about life one day, maybe... same goes for the darft post of imdying's poles are a problem, true but lets just start with the more basic and something that will be taken serious like the WRB's telegraph poles LMFAO.

Seems imdying broke down at my comment LOL and dished out the reps... you asked whats darft... think about it mate, do you really think your Einstein idea of banning power poles is remotley possible :clap: perhaps we should have bashed you with a red for being so bloody DARFT the WRB after all is a serious debate.


Personally, I hate those damn power poles. Those are evil, and a danger to motorcyclists... you guys gonna go something about those next? This should be even more important than a handful of WRBs... power poles are everywhere!

Actually thinking about your comment... sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

Why do the people that disagree never have something half decent to contribute? they might aswell just stay silent

[MSTRS]

Katman, given all the national publicity about cheesecutters over the last few days, do you still say our campaign is going nowhere?


And, again, Katman, I ask the question. Do you still say our campaign is going nowhere, given all the national publicity it has had in the last few days?

You don't really expect an answer, do you? The question is too complex.

[FJRider]

And if she had gone into a cheesecutter as a result of her meeting with deliberately left unmarked gravel, who would still be thinking those fucken things are a good thing?
The whole point of our problem with cc is that there are numerous reasons for anyone colliding with them, yes - including being a dick (no sympathy there) - but innocent, unfortunate riders don't deserve that fate. We know there are many other ways for that fate to occur and we are just as vocal about them. It's just that cc is a static and obvious target for the safety-minded amongst us.

Which is more dangerous... Cheesecutters, or UNMARKED gravel on PUBLIC sealed streets and roads. (This ALSO includes long stretches of road works with deep loose gravel.)
Perhaps a poll or THREAD on what we would class as the biggest problem regarding ROAD SAFETY.... TO MOTORCYCLISTS !!!
The instalment(removal or alteration) of cheesecutters is due to GOVERMENT influence and funding. Is this what the "campaign" is about ??? POLITICAL ???

[DEATH_INC.]

No, I'm not against the WRB's. I believe the anti-WRB lobby needs to pull back from demanding their removal and concentrate on requesting that they be modified to make them safer.
Ummm I've stated MANY times that this is exactly what we are asking for. We aren't bloody stupid, the barriers are there for a reason. All we want is for them to be replaced with or modified in such a way that they are something safer.....
(edit: I see others have pointed this out too...)

[DEATH_INC.]

Is this what the "campaign" is about ??? POLITICAL ???
No. Not at all. I hate politics.

[DEATH_INC.]

Look, one thing at a time. If we can win this one it will open the doors to all the other stuff, white lines and power poles and all.
But we need to stick together and make it happen.

[Headbanger]

Amazing, all these good people doing good work for a common cause. Respect to you all.

And then righteous wankers start attacking them for not righting every wrong in the world at the same time, or getting petty of the direction of the effort, even though they haven't taken 3 seconds to read and comprehend before posting weak bullshit.

Katman, Show some fuckin respect and shut the fuck up.

Wait, Aplogise to Mom first, shes "good people", and the world doesn't have enough good people in it.

[FJRider]

No. Not at all. I hate politics.

So you won't vote ??????
Change of goverment, MAY mean change of POLICYS.
Find some CAGE drivers that have hit the WRB's... see what THEY say on the matter.
Talk to your MP's... see what they say.
And I'm curious to hear how WRB's could be made SAFER, maybe I missed that explanation... who else missed it ???

[FJRider]

So? If cc are where 'it' happens, they will likely be a factor in the aftermath.


And as a dedicated, committed and safety-conscious biker...whose fault is that?

Perhaps more could/should be done to reduce "likely" cause's of accidents, rather than "likely" factors in the "aftermath".
Helen recently gave aproval for load weight increase, on some trucks, in some areas.... and not a peep out of ANYBODY.

[Mikkel]

Which is more dangerous... Cheesecutters, or UNMARKED gravel on PUBLIC sealed streets and roads. (This ALSO includes long stretches of road works with deep loose gravel.)

That is something I have been pondering lately! How easy would it not be to make grit red, blue, yellow or any other conspicious colour? Thus making it visible from a decent distance.


Find some CAGE drivers that have hit the WRB's... see what THEY say on the matter.

It's not so much that the WRB are good for cars and trucks as it's a matter of cost I believe. They are the cheap option just like chip-seal and having no formal driver training.

And it's not like it ought to end with the WRB - armco barriers that does not go all the way to the road surface are just about as bad as far as motorcyclists are concerned. Anything which is upright, rigid and bolted down is bad news when you're sliding on your arse TBH.

[dangerous]

Helen recently gave aproval for load weight increase, on some trucks, in some areas.... and not a peep out of ANYBODY.

I often drive 44T the limit is now *50T the difference is squart... trucks handling, braking abilitys these days are as good as the average car, increasing the weight was a good thing, less trucks.


Find some CAGE drivers that have hit the WRB's... see what THEY say on the matter.
Let me remind the troops again, I dont think the people in the car below have anything to say on the matter...


*50T This is only a trial in a selected area, being canty rubbish trucks going to the landfill site

[Mom]

And I'm curious to hear how WRB's could be made SAFER, maybe I missed that explanation... who else missed it ???

Curious is all good.

There are various commercial products that have been developed specifically to be retro-fitted to wire rope median barriers to make them safe for motorcyclists and other vulnerable road users.

These include:

HIASA - Spanish motorcycle protection system

BikeGuard by Highway Care (UK), manufactured by SGGT
Strassenausstattungen GmbH, Germany - listed in the UK Highways Agency 'Approved Road Restraint Systems' application list.

Moto-Shield by Prins Dokkum B.V. (Netherlands) - as fitted to median and crash barriers in the Utrecht region of Holland.

go to www.cheesecutter.co.nz

Go to the tab called barrier information and scroll down, there are links with more information on these systems there.

[MSTRS]

Go to the tab called barrier information and scroll down, there are links with more information on these systems there.

Come on, Mom. Do you really think the nay-sayers are remotely interested in doing some research for themselves. Much easier to keep their narrow-minded opinion and toss barbs at those of us prepared to work for all.

[madandy]

Perhaps more could/should be done to reduce "likely" cause's of accidents, rather than "likely" factors in the "aftermath".
Helen recently gave aproval for load weight increase, on some trucks, in some areas.... and not a peep out of ANYBODY.

Ride in 2-4 lanes of hopeless traffic for a few thousand kms and witness all that could be done to reduce road carnage.
Fixing the WRB issue NOW is doable.
Fixing the attitudes of typical Kiwi raods users is gonna take a lot longer.

We can all work on our own attitudes on the roads :sunny:

[Katman]

If you read what the petition is actually asking for, it clearly says a moratorium on the further installation of these things until a full safety investigation is completed. There is no request to have them removed or anything else.



Then perhaps more could be done to rein in the rabid few who call for civil disobedience and want nothing less than the complete removal of the WRBs.

[vifferman]

Then perhaps more could be done to rein in the rabid few who call for civil disobedience and want nothing less than the complete removal of the WRBs.
You perhaps do not realise that change rarely comes about by people being quiet, calm and restrained. It usually takes a few radicals on either side of an issue to bring the salient points into focus, and to create enough impetus that something actually gets done. Especially in UnZud, where the bureaucrat is king, and the general hoipolloi whinge about stuff but don't do anything to actually make stuff happen. It takes a TREMENDOUS amount of noise and pressure to get the faceless, nameless grey-suited bureaucrats to do anything. Unless of course, it's to make more rules and regulations and/or increase their own power and status.

[Katman]

You perhaps do not realise that change rarely comes about by people being quiet, calm and restrained.

Hey, you're speaking to Katman here.

:msn-wink:

[Ixion]

Then perhaps more could be done to rein in the rabid few who call for civil disobedience and want nothing less than the complete removal of the WRBs.


No indeed, because it is the noise created by the radicals that frightens the Sheeple and makes them think that maybe the more reasonable calls of the petition might be not such a bad idea.

[Mom]

Then perhaps more could be done to rein in the rabid few who call for civil disobedience and want nothing less than the complete removal of the WRBs.

Why? They have their opinions of these barriers as do I. We all are entitled to hold our own opinions. Some people feel very strongly on this issue and express themselves very forcefully. Nothing wrong with that at all.

The Campaign for Safer Barriers is very clear in its message on the petition.

EDIT: I was responding to a quote notification and did not see Ixions post above this one. That is a good reason too!

[madbikeboy]

Too busy riding like idiots, because they are to busy holding onto thier small head they think with. going ooo ooo look at me i can ride fast.

When in the meantime you are really pissing people off.

I realised something about riding, would i do such and such overttake / lane splitting etc, if a cop was there...

If my mother was in one of the cars/grandmother/father/sister.

Because i know none of those listed above would think i was cool and "riding well"

Thats what racetracks are for.

I'm glad i woke up.

It's a shame a well raised, very polite, very responsible friend of mine was the one to loose his life to a cheesecutter, i have plenty more deserving riders of having this happen to them, but i would not wish that end to my worst enemy.

There are alot of riders out there that were more deserving of this end.

I used to be one of those riders.

Only the good die young.

Mark, is this for real? This post is refreshing for me, there is hope that young and stupid grows up to be older and wiser... Humility is good for the soul.

[The Stranger]

I'm not trolling, or trying to discredit anyone, but I wholeheartedly support Katman's efforts to get motorcyclists to clean up their image

You do?
Excellent!
As it is a whole hearted support, what do you propose to do about it?

Katman's is an arm chair effort, provided it doesn't take any energy or cost he is all for it.

We eagerly await your vision.

[FJRider]

Ride in 2-4 lanes of hopeless traffic for a few thousand kms and witness all that could be done to reduce road carnage.
Fixing the WRB issue NOW is doable.
Fixing the attitudes of typical Kiwi raods users is gonna take a lot longer.

We can all work on our own attitudes on the roads :sunny:

THIS is why I... and many OTHERS, choose to live in the SOUTH island. Still a rat race... but the rats run a lot SLOWER.

[FJRider]

I often drive 44T the limit is now 50T the difference is squart... trucks handling, braking abilitys these days are as good as the average car, increasing the weight was a good thing, less trucks.


Let me remind the troops again, I dont think the people in the car below have anything to say on the matter...

More weight to push OTHER vehicles, including "smaller" trucks into OUR path.

I'm sure "surviving" rellie's WILL...

[dangerous]

More weight to push OTHER vehicles, including "smaller" trucks into OUR path.
NO man, the braking systems and handling abilitys are up to it these days... anyway its only being triled down here at the moment, if ya drive into a truck be it 10T or 50T, the out come will be about the same :mellow:

[Mom]

THIS is why I... and many OTHERS, choose to live in the SOUTH island. Still a rat race... but the rats run a lot SLOWER.

Got to love slow running rats!

You have no idea how lucky you lot are down there to not have the proliferation of these WRK's (wire rope killers) down there. Dont get too complacent though, now is the time for you guys to really get behind this initiative/campaign to stop Transit from installing anymore around the country.

If you dont, you will find them down your local highways, middle and roadside, to improve the roads safety you understand.

Dont dissmiss this campaign as not involving you, or it will!

[FJRider]

Got to love slow running rats!

You have no idea how lucky you lot are down there to not have the proliferation of these WRK's (wire rope killers) down there. Dont get too complacent though, now is the time for you guys to really get behind this initiative/campaign to stop Transit from installing anymore around the country.

If you dont, you will find them down your local highways, middle and roadside, to improve the roads safety you understand.

Dont dismiss this campaign as not involving you, or it will!

WE DO KNOW how lucky we are, and they ARE getting (a lot of km's of them already).
I DO NOT DISMISS this campaign, but steps taken so far won't do it. Motorcyclists are seen by many as the "alternitive" lifestyler's and trouble making hoons.
WE NEED BIG POWERFUL FRIENDS IN HIGH PLACES, and lots of NON motorcycling friends... with GOOD images/reputations.

[Mom]

WE DO KNOW how lucky we are, and they ARE getting (a lot of km's of them already).
I DO NOT DISMISS this campaign, but steps taken so far won't do it. Motorcyclists are seen by many as the "alternitive" lifestyler's and trouble making hoons.
WE NEED BIG POWERFUL FRIENDS IN HIGH PLACES, and lots of NON motorcycling friends... with GOOD images/reputations.

Excellent, we agree!!!... So how many of these "BIG POWERFUL FRIENDS IN HIGH PLACES, and lots of NON motorcycling friends... with GOOD images/reputations" can you introduce me to? LOL. This is not an over night thing, this will take time and effort and perserverance. I am in for the long haul heaven help me.

[madandy]

THIS is why I... and many OTHERS, choose to live in the SOUTH island. Still a rat race... but the rats run a lot SLOWER.

I'm a born & Bred South Islander...I visit home every couple of years...SLOWER? Not when I was there on my Duc 3 months ago...


More weight to push OTHER vehicles, including "smaller" trucks into OUR path.

I'm sure "surviving" rellie's WILL...

6000kg wont make much difference to a car or bike. 13.6% fewer rigs might however.
As Dangerous alluded to, US and European trucks are designed for up to 55,000kgs. Some, like my old mans FH12 Volvo would just about out brake your Yamaha.


WE DO KNOW how lucky we are, and they ARE getting (a lot of km's of them already).
I DO NOT DISMISS this campaign, but steps taken so far won't do it. Motorcyclists are seen by many as the "alternitive" lifestyler's and trouble making hoons.
WE NEED BIG POWERFUL FRIENDS IN HIGH PLACES, and lots of NON motorcycling friends... with GOOD images/reputations.

OK!!! LOL.

ENOUGH YELLING, OK? Time for action not words...

[FJRider]

Excellent, we agree!!!... So how many of these "BIG POWERFUL FRIENDS IN HIGH PLACES, and lots of NON motorcycling friends... with GOOD images/reputations" can you introduce me to? LOL. This is not an over night thing, this will take time and effort and perserverance. I am in for the long haul heaven help me.

Have you spoken to YOUR MP lately... oops,... somebody with a GOOD reputation preferred aye..
What is the Automobile Association (New Zealand) saying about them ???
Car clubs(including 4wd ones) ???
St Johns ambulance opinions ???
Courier companies ????
Official letters to these people to at least get FEEDBACK.

[Mom]

Have you spoken to YOUR MP lately... oops,... somebody with a GOOD reputation preferred aye..
What is the Automobile Association (New Zealand) saying about them ???
Car clubs(including 4wd ones) ???
St Johns ambulance opinions ???
Courier companies ????
Official letters to these people to at least get FEEDBACK.

My MP is Lockwood Smith. He has a waiting list of about 7 weeks to get an appointement to see. I write letters though and send emails.

The AA, I spent quite a bit of time talking to Mike Noon, I think his title is National Motoring Affairs Manager. The AA originally came out quite strongly in favour of concrete barriers, but have modified their stand now. The cheesecutter on the highway heading into Wellington has (when I talked to Mike anyway) stopped 12 potential head on collisions since it was installed. As an organisation that promotes road safety they can not now come out against the WRSB's as it has been proven they do work in some situations. I got the distinct impression that AA not as sympathetic to motorcyclists as they could be, we are after all a tiny minority user of NZ's roads.

I like the St Johns/courier company idea though, will add that to my list of "things to do". I have talked to patrick McGuire the chairman of the Cement and Concrete Assn of NZ. He had an editorial piece in the herald in April? staing very firmly his preference of r concrete over wire. Of course he has an agenda, but nothing wrong with that, I do too. I am a motorcyclist first and foremost and as such am very concerned about these killer barriers. I also drive a car, so can approach this from 2 angles.

Heavy Transport industries and Bus companies are also on my contact list, along with car clubs and the like. I encourage everyone to write to their MP, contact the relevant portfollio MP's and their opposition counterparts about their concerns.

[FJRider]

I'm a born & Bred South Islander...I visit home every couple of years...SLOWER? Not when I was there on my Duc 3 months ago...

6000kg wont make much difference to a car or bike. 13.6% fewer rigs might however.
As Dangerous alluded to, US and European trucks are designed for up to 55,000kgs. Some, like my old mans FH12 Volvo would just about out brake your Yamaha.

OK!!! LOL.

ENOUGH YELLING, OK? Time for action not words...

Duc's were'nt made to go slow...which part of the south ???

Big(and even bigger) rigs do more harm to bikers than WRB's...ever tried to pass one in the wet on a two lane road or passing bay. Even one going the other way.

ALL things work perfectly in perfect conditions. Add roadworks(or bad roads),rain, hills,pea brained drivers,tourists in campervans, with a few motorcyclists... all traveling faster and or slower than the law "suggests" at the same time. Talk about trouble brewing...
Usually one (any one) is not enough to cause serious problems for a motorcyclist, but any combination of the above. And some I have'nt listed.

Bad decision making by riders do more harm to our public profile than anything else. Many try to "encourage" this attitude and act accordingly.

As you found recently (the ODT photo) the "actions" of a few don't help.

[FJRider]

I have had personal "experience" with concrete barriers, with ended with my bike on one side and ME on the other. Have also SEEN bikes bounce off them into the path of traffic. I have survived (more good luck on my part)... others have not. Motorcycling is inherently dangerous, with due care needed in the MORE dangerous areas. Experienced/smart riders KNOW when they're in one and take appropriate action to reduce risk.
Oh... we ALL have agenda's, we just have to make people think/believe, our agenda, is theirs too.
Maybe find/talk to a Motorway patrol "guy" (off the record if necessary) to get their observations/opinions. Even if the various people can't help, you'll know what your up against, as far as opinions go.

SORRY...forgot to mention .... HAPPY BIRTHDAY... have a good one...or two.

[Ixion]

.. I got the distinct impression that AA not as sympathetic to motorcyclists as they could be, we are after all a tiny minority user of NZ's roads.

...

Shit. Y'reckon :rofl:

I suppose next thing y'll be telling me George W is not as sympathetic to Al Queda as he could be.

[madandy]

Duc's weren't made to go slow...which part of the south ???

Big(and even bigger) rigs do more harm to bikers than WRB's...ever tried to pass one in the wet on a two lane road or passing bay. Even one going the other way.

ALL things work perfectly in perfect conditions. Add road works (or bad roads),rain, hills,pea brained drivers,tourists in camper vans, with a few motorcyclists... all travelling faster and or slower than the law "suggests" at the same time. Talk about trouble brewing...
Usually one (any one) is not enough to cause serious problems for a motorcyclist, but any combination of the above. And some I haven't listed.

Bad decision making by riders do more harm to our public profile than anything else. Many try to "encourage" this attitude and act accordingly.

As you found recently (the ODT photo) the "actions" of a few don't help.

Christchurch to Picton.
I wasn't riding slow but the traffic in Chch was just like Wellington, Hamilton, Tauranga, Auckland. They speed between lights, change lanes, disobey 50, 70 & 80 km/h speed limits just like the rest.
Then fall asleep on the open road and become bike fodder at the first sign of hills & bends just like their Northern counterparts :cool:

Big rigs can shroud the immediate area in spray and make overtaking challenging yes. We get a lot more rain up here than most of the south Island so Northern riders are well used to oevertaking trucks in the rain.
Increasing their mass will not change that.
Even a 2.5 ton SUV will make a mess of us so you could argue that all vehicles do more harm to motorcyclists than WRB's but that doesn't make their use.

While I agree with many of your points , and they are part of the attitude adjustment that is long overdue, a WRB will never work perfectly for a motorcyclist regardless of conditions.

[FJRider]

Picton to Christchurch is one of, if not THE busiest, road in the south island. State highway one main route to or from the ferries. Night time is even worse.
I saw the "light(s)" and kept going SOUTH. The nearest set of traffic lights(to me) is 220 km's away...still too close.
Speak to a few who have ridden on the south's WEST coast, narrow roads, in the "rain". We do know about rain. Admittedly I do believe motorway riding, in traffic, in the rain...well you can have it.
Hit ANYTHING at 100 km/h, and it gets messy...fast !!!
As I have said... In perfect conditions, it will work perfectly. Less than perfect conditions....
COMPROMISE has always been the "order of the day" in most of goverment policys to "help" road safety
My initial mention of the "increase of mass" of some trucks, was not road safety orientated, but highlighted change of policys by goverment. WITHOUT warning, in such a way, without full realisation of the public, what the changes could mean to them. Such has happened, with the installation or WRB's

[MSTRS]

Back to the original premise of this thread...that the cc campaign is going nowhere.
It's easy to think that is the case. Transit are asked by the campaign to stop installing more of this crap until etc etc....
Transit announced a few days ago that they are undertaking a joint study with Oz into the effectiveness of WRB esp as it pertains to us. BUT they have not stopped installing the crap.
The cynics amongst us (me included) will say 'Study? Yea right. A sop to shut us up. The outcome can be accurately guessed right now.'
The fact the Transit have made such an announcement is proof that the campaign is making some difference. So the campaign IS going somewhere.
For all the differing opinions as to the dangers of WRB, the fact remains that none of us want to be exposed to any more danger than is absolutely necessary, and the different factions amongst us can collectively do their bit to achieve better outcomes for all. Instead of viciously deriding this one or that, what is wrong with pulling together, each in their own way? Support is a 2-way street, and the ModerateYourBehaviourBrigade might find less resistance to their proposals if they give a nod to the SaferBarrierBrigade, who might find backing from the BeNiceToCagersBrigade.
Or is this just a bit too wooly?

[Oscar]

Until such time as motorcyclists as a whole accept that the greatest danger to our own safety comes, in fact, from our own attitudes and actions and not from cheesecutters, cagers or ginga coppers nothing is likely to change.

To fix a problem you must ultimately confront the base problem.

Well said.

Whereas the cheesecutters are a danger to us all, we need to address the biggest problem first - those motorcyclists who appear hellbent on proving Darwin correct.

To those that say the campaign is going OK, how come this is the only place I've heard of it? Despite being on the alert for bike related stuff in the media like most of us, the only thing I've heard in the mainstream media is the Canadian Prick from LTSA commenting on the death on the Southern Motorway. He indicated that the guy was travelling so fast that he was probably dead before he hit the barrier.

[MSTRS]

Despite being on the alert for bike related stuff in the media like most of us, the only thing I've heard in the mainstream media is the Canadian Prick from LTSA commenting on the death on the Southern Motorway. He indicated that the guy was travelling so fast that he was probably dead before he hit the barrier.

We're getting there. Keep watching.
And who takes any notice of the Canadian prick? Every time he opens his mouth, it's an embarassment to sentient beings.

[Oscar]

We're getting there. Keep watching.
And who takes any notice of the Canadian prick? Every time he opens his mouth, it's an embarassment to sentient beings.

I realise what you're trying to do is laudable, but we have one major problem - Motorcyclists are not a homogeneous group.

What do you or I have in common with the 19 year old pulling wheelies on his GSXR Rat Bike up the motorway?
With the fuckwit on the unmuffled mini-chopper up your street?
With the Outcast/Filthy Few gang member on his HD?
The spotty wanker rarking up the park down the road on his 20 year old KDX175?

I'll tell you what we have in common.
As far as the great unwashed are concerned, we're all members of that group knwon as Fucking Bikies, Bikers, Organ Donors, Stupid Motorcyclists and Temporary Citizens.

And who represents us?

Alan R Kirk?
MNZ?
BRONZ?

How drepressing.
I may have just talked myself into buying a car...

[MSTRS]

Motorcyclists are not a homogeneous group.

What do you or I have in common with .....
As far as the great unwashed are concerned, we're all members of that group known as Fucking Bikies, Bikers, Organ Donors, Stupid Motorcyclists and Temporary Citizens.

And who represents us?

Alan R Kirk?
MNZ?
BRONZ?

How depressing.
I may have just talked myself into buying a car...

Put that way, it is depressing.
HOWEVER, part of the total package we are trying to achieve is to 'educate' the great unwashed that we are as varied as they are, and that we have as much right to official safety initiatives as they do, albeit better installations than are currently employed. Once the public are educated and realise that anything that is better for us, is also going to be good for them, our job is done.

[Katman]

I had to wait this long to lose enough infraction points to be able to edit the tags.

:msn-wink:

[Deano]

I realise what you're trying to do is laudable, but we have one major problem - Motorcyclists are not a homogeneous group.

What do you or I have in common with the 19 year old pulling wheelies on his GSXR Rat Bike up the motorway?
With the fuckwit on the unmuffled mini-chopper up your street?
With the Outcast/Filthy Few gang member on his HD?
The spotty wanker rarking up the park down the road on his 20 year old KDX175?

I'll tell you what we have in common.
As far as the great unwashed are concerned, we're all members of that group knwon as Fucking Bikies, Bikers, Organ Donors, Stupid Motorcyclists and Temporary Citizens.

And who represents us?

Alan R Kirk?
MNZ?
BRONZ?

How drepressing.
I may have just talked myself into buying a car...

But it's the same with ANY group.

A couple of truckies didn't stick to the agenda in the protest.

Some Maoris give the entire culture a bad name.

Some cops give Police a bad name.

Doesn't mean you should be racist or make generalisations ??

[Katman]

Doesn't mean you can be racist or make generalisations ??

Doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

[Deano]

Doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

But you have to keep it in context. Something that you seem to find hard to do. Personal agendas make it difficult eh.

[Katman]

Personal agendas make it difficult eh.

And what exactly are you suggesting is my personal agenda?

[dangerous]

I'll tell you what we have in common.
As far as the great unwashed are concerned, we're all members of that group knwon as Fucking Bikies, Bikers, Organ Donors, Stupid Motorcyclists and Temporary Citizens.
...

Thats crap... and its so bloody 80's, I dont believe that is the general opion of bikers at all.

[Katman]

Thats crap... and its so bloody 80's, I dont believe that is the general opion of bikers at all.

Wake up Rip Van Winkle.

[dangerous]

Wake up Rip Van Winkle.
HUH? whats some tulip muncher sound asleap in the Catskill Mountains got to do with anything:beer:

[Katman]

HUH? whats some tulip muncher sound asleap in the Catskill Mountains got to do with anything:beer:

I think Oscar's picture of how the general public view motorcyclists is spot on.



Edit: And there's far too many motorcyclists that thrive on that very viewing.

[Deano]

And what exactly are you suggesting is my personal agenda?

You seem hell bent on preaching to ALL bikers that EVERY biker is THEIR own worst enemy.

[Katman]

You seem hell bent on preaching to ALL bikers that EVERY biker is THEIR own worst enemy.

Every biker is their own worst enemy.

The only saving grace is that some motorcyclists realise that they're their own worst enemy.

[Deano]

Every biker is their own worst enemy.

The only saving grace is that some motorcyclists realise they're their own worst enemy.

:clap:

Every ? You therefore mean inherently ? LOL

So do the ones who have realised it still need to agree with your rantings and assumptions ?

[dangerous]

Every biker is their own worst enemy.

The only saving grace is that some motorcyclists realise that they're their own worst enemy.

na, this is weird shit... your threory could go for every person on this planet.

[Deano]

na, this is weird shit... your threory could go for every person on this planet.

That's right D.

"Why Katman's Campaign is going Nowhere"

Katman would do better in reaching his target audience and have a more credible argument if he stopped generalising and making sweeping assumptions.

Hell, I would even agree in part with him.

[Katman]

Katman would do better in reaching his target audience and have a more credible argument if he stopped generalising and making sweeping assumptions.

Hell, I would even agree in part with him.

Ok, I'll amend my statement.

Every motorcyclist has the potential to be their own worst enemy.

I'm sure you can agree with that.

[Katman]

And regarding my propensity for generalisations it follows that I include myself in those same statements.

(A fact that may shock Mom - because she thinks I'm perfect).

:msn-wink:

[dangerous]

Ok, I'll amend my statement.

Every motorcyclist has the potential to be their own worst enemy.

I'm sure you can agree with that.

That is beter, the way it read before seemed like you have very little self esteem in your riding skills and every other rider in NZ, I for one are my 'best allie' on the road, for if I am not I am history.

But yes I understand were you are comming from, however no petitioning the WRB's would mean nothing is done about then if nothing else at least those involved can have the kudos to know thay had the guts to try.

[Katman]

I for one are my 'best allie' on the road, for if I am not I am history.



And it's our choice between 'best ally' or 'worst enemy' that determines our longevity on the road.

[dangerous]

And it's the choice between 'best ally' or 'worst enemy' that determines our longevity on the road.

Bloody right you are there, but when not on the road you can also be a allie (y) by making the roads safer... hell its worth a try.

[MSTRS]

Bloody right you are there, but when not on the road you can also be a allie (y) by making the roads safer... hell its worth a try.

It's called leading by example.
*Some* people just like to talk, but fail miserably when it comes to 'walk'.
Others do it the other way round.
Come on people...its a package deal, and one without the other is selling yourself and others short.

[Oscar]

Edit: And there's far too many motorcyclists that thrive on that very viewing.

Exactly right.

There are to many sad bastids out there living out their adolescent dreams of being a badass rebel or making up for the fact that they've got a small willy.

[James Deuce]

Exactly right.

There are to many sad bastids out there living out their adolescent dreams of being a badass rebel or making up for the fact that they've got a small willy.
The huge number of people riding around on 1000cc + bikes is testament to that. IF people had any personal integrity they'd acknowledge the fact that they couldn't master a 400cc 4 let alone something that would be winning GPs/Superbike/TT races 15 years ago in stock form. I was hesitant about buying the Zed, but finding something comfortable and versatile in the 4-600cc market a couple of years ago was pretty flipping difficult.

[MSTRS]

I was hesitant about buying the Zed, but finding something comfortable and versatile in the 4-600cc market a couple of years ago was pretty flipping difficult.

Uh-Huh...I've heard that before...:jerry:

[Oscar]

Thats crap... and its so bloody 80's, I dont believe that is the general opion of bikers at all.

Why is it crap?
Ask any Ambulance Crew, Cop or Emergency Doctor or Nurse.

The underlying problem is that Motorcycle Licenses are too easy to get, and that the minimum age is waaay too low. There is also a problem at the other end of the ledger with idiots re-entering the community ("The last bike I had a CB125 at University 30 years ago, but I'll be sweet on my new HD/BMW/Yamasusaki 1900...")

[FJRider]

na, this is weird shit... your threory could go for every person on this planet.

Katman's signature explains it quite well. If you read it. and STILL don't understand... let him know, and he'll draw you a picture.

[dangerous]

Katman's signature explains it quite well. It does... and I kinda like it. (dont mean I like him tho ;)



Why is it crap?
Ask any Ambulance Crew, Cop or Emergency Doctor or Nurse.

The underlying problem is that Motorcycle Licenses are too easy to get, and that the minimum age is waaay too low. There is also a problem at the other end of the ledger with idiots re-entering the community ("The last bike I had a CB125 at University 30 years ago, but I'll be sweet on my new HD/BMW/Yamasusaki 1900...")

Ask the ambo crew what?... do they not attend car wrecks, truck accos etc?
Bike licences are NOT easy to get in fact bloody hard considering 30yrs ago they gave me mine... what is wrong is the bikes that are able to be riden by greenies, and also i hold bike dealers as bad advertising to eg: an Aprilla 125 that was advertised as a learners bike cant remember the price but it wasnt cheap and the shop would tic it to the max.

[Bonez]

Why is it crap?
Ask any Ambulance Crew, Cop or Emergency Doctor or Nurse.

The underlying problem is that Motorcycle Licenses are too easy to get, and that the minimum age is waaay too low. There is also a problem at the other end of the ledger with idiots re-entering the community ("The last bike I had a CB125 at University 30 years ago, but I'll be sweet on my new HD/BMW/Yamasusaki 1900...")

Some pretty sweeping statements there. Hell Katman would be proud.

You only need to read KB to realise lot of born agains usually have a transitional ride before getting something newer.
You see most folks have more common sence than you seem to give them credit for.

As for motorcycle licences being easier to get. Have you read the grumblings on KB about how long folk have to wait to get their full m/c licence?

[Katman]

Katman's signature explains it quite well. If you read it. and STILL don't understand... let him know, and he'll draw you a picture.

And regarding my signature.........

It is a direct quote taken from a post by dipshit (don't remember where he got it from and I didn't have the room at the time to include credit to the originator) that I felt stated by belief of motorcycling perfectly and consicely.

[Oscar]

Some pretty sweeping statements there. Hell Katman would be proud.

You only need to read KB to realise lot of born agains usually have a transitional ride before getting something newer.
You see most folks have more common sence than you seem to give them credit for.


As for motorcycle licences being easier to get. Have you read the grumblings on KB about how long folk have to wait to get their full m/c licence?

Anyway what are you actually doing, other than blabbering on a public forum doing to help sort out these "issues".

The comment about blabbering on a public forum works both ways.

The fact is that I've done more 'n my far share over three decades through my Club, Rider Training and Racing activities.

As for the grumbling - so what? Firstly, I doubt that "KB Folk" are anywhere near typical, and secondly - just 'cause they whine, does it make 'em better riders? Any study of MC fatalities will show you that inexperience is a factor, as is rider overconfidence.

[98tls]

The huge number of people riding around on 1000cc + bikes is testament to that. IF people had any personal integrity they'd acknowledge the fact that they couldn't master a 400cc 4 let alone something that would be winning GPs/Superbike/TT races 15 years ago in stock form. I was hesitant about buying the Zed, but finding something comfortable and versatile in the 4-600cc market a couple of years ago was pretty flipping difficult. Whilst i agree in part with what your saying the idea of loading up any 600 with gear and pillon and heading off on a trip does nothing for me.

[Oscar]

Whilst i agree in part with what your saying the idea of loading up any 600 with gear and pillon and heading off on a trip does nothing for me.

DL650 V Strom

[FJRider]

And regarding my signature.........

It is a direct quote taken from a post by dipshit (don't remember where he got it from and I didn't have the room at the time to include credit to the originator) that I felt stated by belief of motorcycling perfectly and consicely.

I often agree with a statement made...no matter how big a dipshit they are :whistle:

[98tls]

DL650 V Strom Great bike i am sure....i have only ridden the 1000.If on my own would be happy to on the 650 but am sure a pillon would make it annoying on a long trip.Mind you thats only my opinion.

[Bonez]

The comment about blabbering on a public forum works both ways.

The fact is that I've done more 'n my far share over three decades through my Club, Rider Training and Racing activities.

As for the grumbling - so what? Firstly, I doubt that "KB Folk" are anywhere near typical, and secondly - just 'cause they whine, does it make 'em better riders? Any study of MC fatalities will show you that inexperience is a factor, as is rider overconfidence.You don't need to be a rocket scientist to realise this has been the case since folk first started using motorcycles.

From what I've seen and a folk I've meet/riden with KB seems to represent quite a good cross section of riders.

Well done for helping follow m/cist. Every little bit helps.

[Katman]

I don't necessarily suggest that size has anything to do with a persons ability to ride a particular bike. I ride a bike that 25 years ago was the bike to beat on the racetrack. I, however, choose to ride that bike in a way that I believe will allow me to easily enjoy it's rewards for the extent of my lifetime.

[FJRider]

Any study of MC fatalities will show you that inexperience is a factor, as is rider overconfidence.

The biggest, most important "factor" in any accident is the rider.
Confidence levels are directly proportional to ignorance.

[James Deuce]

Whilst i agree in part with what your saying the idea of loading up any 600 with gear and pillon and heading off on a trip does nothing for me.
Yeah, but I was talking about me and I don't do pillions (except on very rare occasions) so I don't factor that into my purchase decision at all. The gear isn't a problem because 99% of my riding is to and from work. In Summer I use a wee tail pack and in Winter I use the Ventura rack and an expandable Rally bag so I can carry all my wet & cold weather crap with me.

There are a lot of bikes that are just sex on wheels that would be fantastic to own, but factor in experience, capability, TCO, actual usage, and financial constraints and you end up at a very different place to an R1.

[Mom]

There are a lot of bikes that are just sex on wheels that would be fantastic to own, but factor in experience, capability, TCO, actual usage, and financial constraints and you end up at a very different place to an R1.

And that really sums it up. You can not lump all bikers into one pile. We all have different reasons for making the bike choice we do, be it financial/experience/pillion considerations/seat height in my case/or the size of penis that some need to prove to the masses. Most of us are indeed "sensible" there are always going to be the ones that aren't.

I personally have no problem telling someone straight to their face what I think about their riding. Sometimes it is a bit of advice, using my experience. Sometimes it is a serve for totally unacceptable and out of order riding. Trust me, if I see it I will say something.

I dont have a problem standing up to try to improve the safety of our roads. I detest people that sit back, moan like anything about image, and criticise any effort others make to attempt to make some changes, without demonstrating in any concrete way what they are actually doing about it.

I myself have been teased and given shit for the way I ride. I dont care!! I am happy and safe in my space.

[98tls]

I myself have been teased and given shit for the way I ride. I dont care!! I am happy and safe in my space. At the end of the day that is the only thing that matters.How many times when out riding with mates have i seen the small head take over the thinking from the big head when having fun in the twisties,more than once ive been following a guy that instead of backing off has ignored all the signs of "this is getting out of control" kept charging with the inevitable result.a couple of times i have thought this is going to end badly and sure enough it did.The human ego is a wonderful thing as once i was informed it was my fault.lol.

[Katman]

I detest people that sit back, moan like anything about image, and criticise any effort others make to attempt to make some changes, without demonstrating in any concrete way what they are actually doing about it.


Ummm........

Let me guess.

:msn-wink:

[carver]

do you n00bs belive that anyone has a right to disagree with your campaign, even fellow bikers!
fuck that "lets clean up our image shit, lets make it worse!

the mormon few are dedicated at doing this, spreading the word of bad ass motorcycling!

[98tls]

do you n00bs belive that anyone has a right to disagree with your campaign, even fellow bikers!
fuck that "lets clean up our image shit, lets make it worse!

the mormon few are dedicated at doing this, spreading the word of bad ass motorcycling! Funny really as its probably only a matter of time until you make a very valuable contribution to the cause.

[MyGSXF]

Not interested in trolling back through 13 pages of shyte to check.. so these may be reposts.. :whocares:

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=139917

http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=139890

[carver]

Funny really as its probably only a matter of time until you make a very valuable contribution to the cause.

everyone dies buddy , as does everything, but id rather spend my time living and having fun, as opposed to thinking about death

[FJRider]

the mormon few are dedicated at doing this, spreading the word of bad ass motorcycling!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[DEATH_INC.]

The biggest, most important "factor" in any accident is the rider.
Confidence levels are directly proportional to ignorance.
What do you mean? I'm not too bad at pedaling a cycle and am pretty confident of being able to beat most of the riders on this forum at the track or on the road. I also have a very good understanding of the dynamics of a bike and the consequences of a crash.... Ignorant? Far from it really.
You are generalizing again...
I don't have the figures to back me up, but I've had at least 3 crashes from cars pulling out in front of me, and not being able to avoid them. How is this rider error?

[98tls]

What do you mean? I'm not too bad at pedaling a cycle and am pretty confident of being able to beat most of the riders on this forum at the track or on the road. I also have a very good understanding of the dynamics of a bike and the consequences of a crash.... Ignorant? Far from it really.
You are generalizing again...
I don't have the figures to back me up, but I've had at least 3 crashes from cars pulling out in front of me, and not being able to avoid them. How is this rider error? It isnt,as you say sooner or later chances are you will encounter something that is unavoidable,no different in a car only its usually less painful.

[dipshit]

And regarding my signature.........

It is a direct quote taken from a post by dipshit (don't remember where he got it from and I didn't have the room at the time to include credit to the originator) that I felt stated by belief of motorcycling perfectly and consicely.

I got it from a July 2007 SuperBike magazine article.

http://www.photoshare.co.nz/PhotoShareGallery1/100366/100974/IMG_5040ul1803.jpg

http://www.photoshare.co.nz/PhotoShareGallery1/100366/100974/IMG_5041ul6173.jpg

http://www.photoshare.co.nz/PhotoShareGallery1/100366/100974/IMG_5042ul1119.jpg

[98tls]

I got it from a July 2007 SuperBike magazine article.

http://www.PhotoShare.co.nz/PhotoSha...5040ul1803.jpg

http://www.PhotoShare.co.nz/PhotoSha...5041ul6173.jpg

http://www.PhotoShare.co.nz/PhotoSha...5042ul1119.jpg Forget that shit you got my gold yet?

[dipshit]

Forget that shit you got my gold yet?

Yeah sure. How much you want?

[FJRider]

What do you mean? I'm not too bad at pedaling a cycle and am pretty confident of being able to beat most of the riders on this forum at the track or on the road. I also have a very good understanding of the dynamics of a bike and the consequences of a crash.... Ignorant? Far from it really.
You are generalizing again...
I don't have the figures to back me up, but I've had at least 3 crashes from cars pulling out in front of me, and not being able to avoid them. How is this rider error?

After the first car pulled out in front of you, you would expect more to do so ...wouldn't you ??? You weren't expecting them, which does not equate to WONT HAPPEN to "me" again. You chose to ignore the "fact" that it may happen again. And it did...twice more. Amongst traffic, I can get a little paranoid. Watching for things that MAY happen. It doesn't work all the time...but it helps reduce the number of times you prang, when it does...and you're there.
I have survived 46 years or legal, open road, motorcycling. Having the "right of way" or being "in the right" doesn't make the prang any softer. Or the end result(ing) mayhem any easier to bear. Nor is compensation from those "responsible", any easier to get.
Knowing how "accidents" finish, should help learning how "accidents" BEGIN. If you choose to ignore the FACT, someone will pull out in front of you (and twice you have already) again... it will be the fourth time. If that is not ignorance ...
On the track, you would expect a degree of skill / ability by all participant's, (grading levels etc). On the road, however, skill levels (of some) and variety of vehicles that "share" the road, make this expectation impossible.
Ignoring warnings is ignorance. I hope I dont see a post from you... its happened again...

[98tls]

Yeah sure. How much you want? Will bring the ute down.Want to buy a Duc,no worries buying the bike its paying for the expensive coffee thats got me fucked.

[Headbanger]

After the first car pulled out in front of you, you would expect more to do so ...wouldn't you ??? You weren't expecting them, which does not equate to WONT HAPPEN to "me" again. You chose to ignore the "fact" that it may happen again. And it did...twice more. Amongst traffic, I can get a little paranoid. Watching for things that MAY happen. It doesn't work all the time...but it helps reduce the number of times you prang, when it does...and you're there.
I have survived 46 years or legal, open road, motorcycling. Having the "right of way" or being "in the right" doesn't make the prang any softer. Or the end result(ing) mayhem any easier to bear. Nor is compensation from those "responsible", any easier to get.
Knowing how "accidents" finish, should help learning how "accidents" BEGIN. If you choose to ignore the FACT, someone will pull out in front of you (and twice you have already) again... it will be the fourth time. If that is not ignorance ...
On the track, you would expect a degree of skill / ability by all participant's, (grading levels etc). On the road, however, skill levels (of some) and variety of vehicles that "share" the road, make this expectation impossible.
Ignoring warnings is ignorance. I hope I dont see a post from you... its happened again...

Why would you assume he isn't intelligent enough to be aware it could happen "again"?

Arrogance?

[FJRider]

OR ignorance of the fact it may happen again??? ...and it did... TWO more times...

[Headbanger]

I don't think your assumption was based on ignorance.

[98tls]

Bit off topic here but anyone else had one the "6th sense shit happen" do do do do do do do dodo etc,yea sounds like shite but after 30 something years riding ive encountered it a few times.....anyone else?

[FJRider]

I think its called "experience"... ignore it at your peril

[skidMark]

Bit off topic here but anyone else had one the "6th sense shit happen" do do do do do do do dodo etc,yea sounds like shite but after 30 something years riding ive encountered it a few times.....anyone else?


Yeah sixth sense, 90% of car drivers are fuckwits. The other 10% are bikers, have been bikers, or are family/ friend of a biker. The 10% bother to look.

The 90% are blind morons who should be treated as such.

[98tls]

Yeah sixth sense, 90% of car drivers are fuckwits. The other 10% are bikers, have been bikers, or are family/ friend of a biker. The 10% bother to look.

The 90% are blind morons who should be treated as such. Sorry Mark not what i meant but hope you get there.

[dangerous]

I don't have the figures to back me up, but I've had at least 3 crashes from cars pulling out in front of me, and not being able to avoid them. How is this rider error?

After the first car pulled out in front of you, you would expect more to do so ...wouldn't you ??? You weren't expecting them, which does not equate to WONT HAPPEN to "me" again. You chose to ignore the "fact" that it may happen again. And it did...twice more.

Ignoring warnings is ignorance.

hmmm... this is getting tricky, FJ you have a very good point and one i agree with, Death, I dont believe it should have happend two more times, you should have fore seen it, I can only asume you were away with the feeries or booting it.

But FJ, it is NOT ignorance... but inexperance on the road (riding ability on the track is 90% eralervant on the road) its about having the fore site of whats about to happen.

yeah death is the same age as me, and possibly covered the same milage I dont know and am only asuming, however I learnt after one acco were a car turned in front of me and seeing it happen to others that I expect it to happen, this is not a lack of ignorance but inexperance, cos I sure as hell can still be an ignorant prick :msn-wink:


NB: sometimes suituations can be out of ones control

[DEATH_INC.]

After the first car pulled out in front of you, you would expect more to do so ...wouldn't you ??? You weren't expecting them, which does not equate to WONT HAPPEN to "me" again.
Wrong again. I saw all of them coming, only too late to avoid them. In all three cases the cars were stationary and then shot in front of me at the last second. Unless I had stopped in the middle of the road on the off chance they were gonna do it, and risked being run over from behind, they were unavoidable. Only one was from the left, the others shot across from the right.
There is a reason I drive a farkin big UAV when not on the bike (or in the work ute), and strangely enough, in the 10 years I've owned it I've only ever had to avoid 1 or 2 cars...but that's another story...

[carver]

Yeah well can you go fucking die already instead of fucking up everything for the rest of us?

no..........

[DEATH_INC.]

Just thought I'd point out that I do accept 'rider error' in some cases, I have 'been there done that' too....

[Headbanger]

Just thought I'd point out that I do accept 'rider error' in some cases, I have 'been there done that' too....

Shouldn't have to defend yourself, These jokers have hopped off their bikes and are now perched on high horses......

[James Deuce]

There's no high horse. Every accident I've had has been my fault including the one where the drunk ran me over.

Beats me why no one seems to be able to see how everything they do contributes in a lesser or greater way to every outcome.

It's called personal responsibility, but the reality of having to take ownership of the very simple concept of personal responsibility is why we're afflicted with a grossly disproportionate welfare system and a Govermental system, irrespective of its position on the political spectrum, that tries to create legislation and systems for every eventuality that a minority of New Zealanders seem to create. No one actually wants to be "personally responsible".

I managed to put myself in a physical place and an ego driven headspace by having an argument with my wife and then celebrating doing just what she said I had no hope of doing. I wasn't my normal timid self, wasn't scanning side streets and never saw the car with its headlights off exit the side street controlled by a stop sign. My fault. I was too busy mentalling dancing to the "nyah nyah" tune in my head to be running through the normal list of checks and disaster anticipations that I normally do and got nailed.

To the casual observer, and indeed the legal and ACC systems, I was the victim. I wasn't. I was dick with a small penis and a bad attitude and I paid for it.

I'm sitting here with a neck brace on, drugged to the eyeballs, and waiting to hear about my scan appointments because my neck has collapsed for the first time in 10 years. I had 4 compression fractures in my back and a whiplash injury in that accident. The drunk guy that hit me and then ran me over was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[MSTRS]

You're being too hard on yourself there, Jim. Sure, your mindset at the time may have had a hand in things...but honestly, Expecting to see a car, in the dark with no lights on, pulling out as you describe is beyond the point of personal responsibility. Fuck, if that was the case (responsibility-wise) everytime 'we' got caught, then why would we even get out of bed?

[James Deuce]

My fault. I should have stayed another night in Christchurch with my wife and had a pleasant time, but I had to prove I was a "man" and make it to Picton for the ferry so I could go to work the next day. I didn't go to work for 3 months.

I don't think people are hard ENOUGH on themselves when they are involved in ANY accident. They shouldn't happen. They should be a mark of shame and incompetence. Instead they seem to be an excuse factory.

[Katman]

I don't think people are hard ENOUGH on themselves when they are involved in ANY accident. They shouldn't happen. They should be a mark of shame and incompetence. Instead they seem to be an excuse factory.

Let it all out Jim. :msn-wink:

(And of course, I agree with you completely).

[MSTRS]

I just don't buy into the theory that 100% of things that happen are 'our' fault, Certainly we can own our part in it, but to own all of it just belittles us, and allows the real 'offender' the luxury of being fault-free.
That is the actions of a masochist and I just don't accept it.

[James Deuce]

There's nothing masochistic about it. I was stupid and paid for it. The guy at the other end got punished, but the ultimate responsibility lies with me. I certainly didn't bear him any ill will, even at the time. Weird, eh?

2 of my other accidents were caused by being late for work. Not really worth it. Broken wrist for one of them and a written off bike for the other. The fact that someone changed lanes far too quickly and nailed me in one of them is most likely because I was accelerating hard and he didn't check his mirrors properly. The other one served me right. I smelled the diesel. I saw the landslide caused by the truck hitting the cliff face as he rounded the bend. I still fell off. That one was caused by a habitual mindset. A road I knew and a mental refusal to use the other side of the road to avoid the hazard, despite the way through being perfectly visible. My fault. I should have been riding within myself both times, but was rushing to work instead.

Another one by me being too sick to be riding. Pneumonia and motorcycles don't go together.

[Katman]

I just don't buy into the theory that 100% of things that happen are 'our' fault, Certainly we can own our part in it, but to own all of it just belittles us, and allows the real 'offender' the luxury of being fault-free.
That is the actions of a masochist and I just don't accept it.

But far too few motorcyclists are prepared to even consider that there might have been something that they could have done to avoid an accident and instead just fall back on the catch cry "But it wasn't my fault".

[MSTRS]

But far too few motorcyclists ...

Less than you think, I'd say, however Jim is at the other end of the scale for accepting responsibility...and would be in limited company.

[Katman]

Less than you think, I'd say, however Jim is at the other end of the scale for accepting responsibility...and would be in limited company.

Are you suggesting the problems worse than I imagined?

And if Jim were in far greater company motorcyclists would be in a position where the powers that be might begin to take us seriously.

[MSTRS]

Obtuse, as usual...

[Headbanger]

Beats me why no one seems to be able to see how everything they do contributes in a lesser or greater way to every outcome.



That's the horse I'm talking about.

That aside, Your logic is extreme, You consider yourself at fault for being there at that place and time?

Doesn't that hold true then for anyone getting out of bed and going about their day?, Or what about someone whose too scared to get out of bed and then dies in a house fire?

[James Deuce]

That's the horse I'm talking about.

That aside, Your logic is extreme, You consider yourself at fault for being there at that place and time?

Doesn't that hold true then for anyone getting out of bed and going about their day?, Or what about someone whose too scared to get out of bed and then dies in a house fire?
Read what I wrote and try to understand it. You're applying your own analysis because what I've said strikes too close to home. I did not say anything that relates to your second paragraph at all. You chose to interpret that way. This is the common reaction I get when I posit this argument.

I had an ego burp and it almost killed me. Ego has no place on a motorcycle. Why can you guys not see that making a bad decision at the start of journey can lead to a bad outcome?

Drider87 said the same thing I said a couple days ago and people were lauding his decision to go home and park the bike, yet for some reason you're trying to defend my bad decision because I chose to put myself in the worst position a motorcyclist can - riding when the bad voices are in charge.

[Headbanger]

Read what I wrote and try to understand it. You're applying your own analysis because what I've said strikes too close to home. I did not say anything that relates to your second paragraph at all. You chose to interpret that way. This is the common reaction I get when I posit this argument.

I had an ego burp and it almost killed me. Ego has no place on a motorcycle. Why can you guys not see that making a bad decision at the start of journey can lead to a bad outcome?

Drider87 said the same thing I said a couple days ago and people were lauding his decision to go home and park the bike, yet for some reason you're trying to defend my bad decision because I chose to put myself in the worst position a motorcyclist can - riding when the bad voices are in charge.


I don't quite know how to answer you, Though after reading your post through a number of times I stand by what I have posted.

I'm sure just about everyone (with a few exceptions) is aware their well being is their own responsibility, If you want to beat yourself up over the incident where you clearly were not at fault then I dunno, have you considered counselling?, Sounds to me like you have a few things to deal with.

Please don't take this has a snarky post, Its not intended that way.

[James Deuce]

Well that's an interesting approach. Someone doesn't share your zeitgeist, so they must be insane. Which I guess is technically the very definition of insanity.

But so is trying to blame everyone else for issues you've created for yourself. Every time you give yourself a little fright on a bike you screwed up. But the way I read it, every time a KBer gives themself a little fright, it's the road's fault, the barrier's fault, it's other road user's fault, it's LTNZ's fault because I should be allowed to travel in excess of twice the national speed limite everywhere, or Transit's fault for not spending their ever decreasing budget in a way designed to specifically benefit motorcyclists.

[vifferman]

That aside, Your logic is extreme, You consider yourself at fault for being there at that place and time?
I guess you don't get it, but I do.
I have had a number of "not my fault" incidents, but like James the Deuce, I considered that every one was avoidable and therefore my fault. It's just taking responsibility and being accountable for my actions, including being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm sure that the right mindset before or during the incident may have prevented it, whereas the fact it happened was a combination of factors, most of which were under my control. Including the time I embarked, the speed I was traveling, my attitude, my expectations, etc. This even includes one time when I was rear-ended at a stop sign (no damage to me or the bike).
I have had collisions with four cars, a cyclist and a pedestrian, and in every case, legally I was in the right (apart from the first car I hit, which I didn't see). In none of them did I consider myself innocent or absolve myself from blame. It was convenient that I was legally not at fault as far as insurance purposes were concerned, but that's it.

[Katman]

I've said it elsewhere but I'll add it here.....

Over an almost 20 year period (since coming back to NZ I've changed my riding style from that which I was guilty of in London) I had countless accidents. Try as I might, I can't think of one single one that was, if not my fault entirely, at least avoidable by some action that was within my scope of responsibility.

[Katman]

And furthermore, the lack of accepting personal responsibility shown in statements like "the cheesecutter killed Daniel and NOTHING else" (voiced by a number on here) is one of the main reasons the WRB campaign is struggling to gain even the support of all motorcyclists.

If statements like the above were to to be voiced to the general public the WRB campaign would risk becoming a laughing stock.

[Firefight]

Well that's an interesting approach. Someone doesn't share your zeitgeist, so they must be insane. Which I guess is technically the very definition of insanity.
.






F/F shit posted twice, sorry

[Firefight]

Well that's an interesting approach. Someone doesn't share your zeitgeist, so they must be insane. Which I guess is technically the very definition of insanity.
.






yeah totally agree Jim/James what ever your new name is

and as always well written, agree with the whole post,, rep earned.


F/F

[Maha]

And furthermore, the lack of accepting personal responsibility shown in statements like "the cheesecutter killed Daniel and NOTHING else" (voiced by a number on here) is one of the main reasons the WRB campaign is struggling to gain even the support of all motorcyclists.

If statements like the above were to to be voiced to the general public the WRB campaign would risk becoming a laughing stock.

Going to War didnt kill many Soldiers.......bullets did.

[Pwalo]

Going to War didnt kill many Soldiers.......bullets did.

Nah, I think you'll find it was mainly diseases, infections, etc that have killed most soldiers. Sad but true.

I have no idea what relation that has to this thread.

[Headbanger]

I guess you don't get it, but I do.


His point being he wasn't paying attention so its his fault?

If he wants to feel that way then good for him, Sounds to me like the lot of you need to give up bikes, Not only do you all seem to suck at it you want to preach to everybody that they suck at it to but they just haven't realised it yet.And no salvation for anyone until they break down and admit it.

[Deano]

Did anyone else see the show on TV last night (sorry didn't catch which channel), which was all about making road sign poles safer for vehicles ? (Europe I think)

They showed a small car hitting a steel pole -it careened off to the side and rolled - possibly killing the driver.

They then showed an 'aluminum concertina' type of pole, which was flattened when the small car collided with it. No injury to occupants.

I thought it was quite interesting and had parallels with the WRB issue.

[James Deuce]

His point being he wasn't paying attention so its his fault?

If he wants to feel that way then good for him, Sounds to me like the lot of you need to give up bikes, Not only do you all seem to suck at it you want to preach to everybody that they suck at it to but they just haven't realised it yet.And no salvation for anyone until they break down and admit it.

You didn't read it. You can't have if you keep saying things like that. You've got to stop misquoting and paraphrasing me.

[Maha]

Nah, I think you'll find it was mainly diseases, infections, etc that have killed most soldiers. Sad but true.

I have no idea what relation that has to this thread.

You totally missed the point, clear your head and I will explain.

Katman beleives that the actions of a biker killed him, not the fact that the biker died as a result of coming into contact with a WRB.
With me so far?
I used the analogy that, It wasnt the act of going to war that killed soldiers (not all of them) it was (in most cases) bullets.. WWI and WWII.
Didnt really think I had to spell it out but just for you...I did.

[Katman]

Katman beleives that the actions of a biker killed him, not the fact that the biker died as a result of coming into contact with a WRB.


Close.

Katman believes that the actions of a biker contributed to the cause of his death.

If you want to take it to it's base level, his injuries caused his death - the WRB and his actions contributed to his death.

[Maha]

Close.

Katman believes that the actions of a biker contributed to the cause of his death.

If you want to take it to it's base level, his injuries caused his death - the WRB and his actions contributed to his death.




Certainly.....they call that....'The sequence of events'


Yeah not much chance of survival when you are in two piece's I guess.
So if we can eliminate the 'contributing factor' in any accident, would it be fair to say that, most would have real chance of seeing another day?

[ManDownUnder]

Surely there's 2 bases of risk. Intrinsic and extrinsic.

We do what we can to reduce both types... which includes raising awareness of external factors that increase the chances of a fatal outcome (with the aim of getting the f'kin' things removed or made safer)

... no?

[Katman]

So if we can eliminate the 'contributing factor' in any accident, would it be fair to say that, most would have real chance of seeing another day?

Which contributing factor are you talking about though?

If you're talking about the "sequence of events" - by eliminating the first contributing factor all other factors are therefore automatically eliminated.

[Headbanger]

You didn't read it. You can't have if you keep saying things like that. You've got to stop misquoting and paraphrasing me.

Obviously then its just well beyond my scope.

The way I read it your attributing far to much blame on a minor contributing factor in your accident, a factor so minor that it wouldn't even get a reference (and appears it didn't get a reference). Taking the event as you have outlined it then the fact you didn't see the car is no more a contributing factor then being alive and capable of starting your bike.

It's unreasonable to expect even the most experienced and cautious of riders to take the blame for being run over by a car breaking nearly every road rule ever written.

You appear to be basing your point of view on hind-sight, Which doesn't alter a course already taken.

The rest of your waffle about what you claim everyone else doesn't realise, if it was directed at me then its just a little mis-guided. Though if you ever see me cause an accident and then blame it on Transit I'll come and talk to ya.

That aside, My apologies if you think I'm a little harsh or just incapable of getting your point. Perhaps your right on both counts.

[Headbanger]

Which contributing factor are you talking about?

If you're talking about the "sequence of events" - by eliminating the first contributing factor all other factors are therefore also eliminated.

Stay in bed?

[Mom]

Which contributing factor are you talking about though?

If you're talking about the "sequence of events" - by eliminating the first contributing factor all other factors are therefore automatically eliminated.

You are so right! If the first contributing factor was removed nothing else would have happened. Sadly for Daniel he decided to go for a ride on his motorbike. If he had not done that on the night in question the accident would not have happened.

[Katman]

You are so right! If the first contributing factor was removed nothing else would have happened. Sadly for Daniel he decided to go for a ride on his motorbike. If he had not done that on the night in question the accident would not have happened.

The difference being that some of us are actually trying to discuss the issue sensibly.

[Maha]

Which contributing factor are you talking about though?

If you're talking about the "sequence of events" - by eliminating the first contributing factor all other factors are therefore automatically eliminated.


The contributing factor (which ended his life) in this case would be a length of WRB. If it had been a section of Concrete Barrier, he would have stood a better than even chance and been able to reflect on the stupidity on why he ended up there in the first place. Fact is, that didnt happen.
My view is.
The wheelie (at whatever speed) didn't kill him
The landing didn't kill him.
The slide along the road that followed, didn't kill him.
Coming into contact with the WRB did kill him.

Now, (just like you) I wasn't there at the time/scene and I am under no illusion that the events on that night were avoidable.