Road user charge increase truckies' drive/march this Friday 4 July

[MissFitz]

:2thumbsup All main centres on Friday 7.30am to 9.30am 4th July 2008 truckies will be converging on main centres like Queen Street Auckland to show there disgust at the recent user charge increase by the government after absolutely no consultation as promised! show your support...these charges will be passed onto YOU the customer...if you think that times are hard now, & if the government keeps making its own decisions things are going th get even harder!

[MisterD]

Ha. We are taxpayers, we own the railways. Can't you see it's in our interests now to make life harder for road freight?:wacko:

[Quasievil]

I reckon each one of us thinking people should be getting right behind the truckies on this one.
Trucks delivery everything except babies, with trucks we all suffer hugely, if there costs go up so do ours.


this is one campaign that should be able to trigger the revolution now where is me rifle !!!!

[kave]

Lets get behind the truckies on this one. I will do a lap or two of queen street just after 7:30am to show my support, wish I could do something more useful, but I have work that morning and start relatively early. It is a bloody good cause, and if we help out the truckies when they need it, they might return the favour when we need a hand.

[CookMySock]

Lets get behind the truckies on this one.Wish I could be there. I'm sick of these govt cunts changing the rules over and over again. I wish there was some mechanism whereby we could tell them to FUCK OFF.

growl!

DB

[Finn]

I wish there was some mechanism whereby we could tell them to FUCK OFF.

I think they call it an election and I believe there is one this year. It's time to rid ourselves of Mugabe Clark.

[martybabe]

Quite right, it's a bloody stealth tax on everything we buy, food and petrol prices have gone crazy enough without this crafty shiftyness. :girlfight:

[HornetBoy]

I think they call it an election and I believe there is one this year. It's time to rid ourselves of Mugabe Clark.

Meh,they're all the bloody same ,all promises of cheaper rates etc up until the election then once they get in full of excuses :bash:

I think its just that Clark is unfortunatly in government during a world economy dip/crisis so is being blamed for all the price hikes ,ie: petrol ,when in reality it may be out of her control :yes: getting pretty shocking tho with the recent rego hike

Ill be voting for Keys tho ,time for a change i guess

[nighthawk]

Some time ago I heard a comment on the radio (by I don't know who):confused: they elluded to the government buying the railways and the perfect timing of the new road user charges and ACC levy:blink:

There was a suggestion of we ain't seen noting yet about it.

It may appear we are in for more surprises post ellection depending on the result

[R6_kid]

There was supposed to be months warning, and it's been changed without any consultation at all. I dont care if John Key doesn't know sweet fuck all about maori history... i'm voting for him, even if just for a change.

[pete376403]

Ill be voting for Keys tho ,time for a change i guess


Do you REALLY think things will change that much?

"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss" (Won't Get Fooled Again - The Who)

[merv]

Go KiwiRail.

Besides how many KBers whine on about trucks clogging the highways, and bloody diesel vans and 4x4s going too damn slow and taking bikers out at roundabouts etc etc.

If this is about charging closer to the true cost of using the roads I'm all for it and if it helps reduce the volume of those vehicles on the roads yippee.

As for the lack of warning they said last time they gave warning all the pricks went out and bought stacks of RUC in advance. So whoopdeedoo to the lack of notice.

[CookMySock]

If this is about charging closer to the true cost of using the roads I'm all for it and if it helps reduce the volume of those vehicles on the roads yippee.Thats a daft statement. The govt collects FAR more money from road taxes etc than they spend on the roads. Its a fucking ripoff.

DB

[Swoop]

Go KiwiRail.
I have been wondering...
There is always a train heading up or down the country and invariably you see a lot of empty flatbed rail wagons. If kiwirail were smart, they would allow (for a minimal fee, of course) people to park their cars on them and move them around the country. Throw on a passenger carriage for the cage occupants to amuse themselves and hey-presto! another income stream for them.

[Shadows]

Good on them. It's about time NZ grew some fucking nuts.

[trustme]

Our economy is reeling so the govt decides to increase tax on transport which will result in a price increase on everything we buy that has a transport component . Great way to stimulate the economy
Wonder if Merv will still be going Yippee as he finds his dollar continuing to buy less & less while his pay stays the same
So there will be less trucks.
Too bad you won't be able to afford the fuel to ride down those unclogged roads to buy goods from empty shops because there is no rail siding to your local shopping centre for delivery of stuff you can no longer afford
Hope you are good at gardening Merv or you going to get fucking hungry.

[smokeyging]

It seems a coincidence that the RUCs went up at the same time the government took over the railways doesn't it?...

[trustme]

Stop being so cynical.
Its Labours arrogance that makes them think they can get away with it.
What they forget is that fuel costs have risen dramatically for truckies ,many an OD is already struggling & if they were honest with themselves they would be better off on wages. These guys run fine margins then the govt hits them with another tax increase without warning that many will not be able to recover for some time . The govt is probably stunned at the reaction, they have pushed once too often
This demonstrates to me just how far out of touch this govt really is.

So who is catching the train to work tomorrow to help pay off the billion or so or would you rather just pay it off with a tax increase to offset the tax cut Sullen might give you next year if you reelect him.

Me ,cynical, NEVER

[merv]

Thats a daft statement. The govt collects FAR more money from road taxes etc than they spend on the roads. Its a fucking ripoff.

DB

Ah are you dafter than me and drinking too much Tui or something? Ever read this http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Images/NewFolder-2/Overview-for-pdf.pdf ?

Key point being:

3.3 Who pays for the roading network?

Road users pay 62% ($2.3 billion per annum) and ratepayers pay 8% ($0.3 million per
annum). The main components of the user and related charges are:

• Fuel Excise Duty $1079m
• Road User Charges $584m
• Motor Vehicle Fees $568m
• Other charges (Fire Service Insurance levy, Policy fines) $99m
• TLA Roading rates $288m

Note that these figures include the proportion of fuel excise which goes to the Crown
Account as well as that going to the National Land Transport Fund.

This leaves a shortfall of 30% ($1.1 billion per annum) which is primarily linked to two
areas of costs. These are the imputed costs of environmental and accident externalities (total cost $1.8 billion per annum), and the rate of return on investment ($750 million per annum). Air pollution costs of $442 million per annum are partially paid for by the health system, while climate change costs are not paid for by anyone. Water quality and quantity costs are not fully paid for by anyone either. This is because although local councils remove the flow of water, it is not generally treated to reach a specific quality. Noise pollution costs and their distribution are the subject of further work by the Ministry of Transport.

[merv]

Our economy is reeling so the govt decides to increase tax on transport which will result in a price increase on everything we buy that has a transport component . Great way to stimulate the economy
Wonder if Merv will still be going Yippee as he finds his dollar continuing to buy less & less while his pay stays the same
So there will be less trucks.
Too bad you won't be able to afford the fuel to ride down those unclogged roads to buy goods from empty shops because there is no rail siding to your local shopping centre for delivery of stuff you can no longer afford
Hope you are good at gardening Merv or you going to get fucking hungry.

Well I was around for the '74 oil crisis and just loved driving/riding on the uncluttered roads and I also enjoy riding on nice twisty roads.

My earlier comments were geared towards the few I keep seeing comment on "more money needed for roads to make them safer - blah blah", "get the other bloody vehicles out of my way blah blah".

I personally think too much has been invested in roads to make them straight and boring and if that is kept up how long before motorcycling will be a boring form of transport and not a nice leisure activity? Its bad enough the gravel roads are being sealed over let alone all the curves that are being cut out. Too much has been invested in trucking already therefore - time it should pay.

p.s. I could do with going hungry I'm too lazy to go to the gym to get weight off.

[Sanx]

This leaves a shortfall of 30% ($1.1 billion per annum) which is primarily linked to two
areas of costs. These are the imputed costs of environmental and accident externalities (total cost $1.8 billion per annum), and the rate of return on investment ($750 million per annum). Air pollution costs of $442 million per annum are partially paid for by the health system, while climate change costs are not paid for by anyone. Water quality and quantity costs are not fully paid for by anyone either. This is because although local councils remove the flow of water, it is not generally treated to reach a specific quality. Noise pollution costs and their distribution are the subject of further work by the Ministry of Transport.

So this shortfall they talk about is entirely fake. Air pollution costs of $442 million? Sure it's not $443 million? Or $441 million? That will be a figure extrapolated out from some pretty wishy-washy data and then simply fudged to make it as high as possible. Climate change costs not paid by anyone; exactly, so it isn't a cost and cannot be counted.

As for environmental and accident externalities ... whatever they are ... ACC pays for the treatment, rehabilitation and incidental costs resulting from injuries. So counting them as a transport cost is double-dipping. As for environmental externalities - if they cost $1.8 billion, then I'd love to see the receipts. Sounds like typical government bullshit to me.

[Ixion]

Highly creative accounting!

What is the actual total of the cheques written out from the accounts into which petrol and road tax income is paid. Only including cheques for actual road expenses. ?

[BiK3RChiK]

It's all a freakin ripoff! Fuel has increased out of sight for truckies. Then the re-licencing goes up, now the RUC. Many truckies are on the knife-edge already. This is going to mean many of them going out of business. Also, it will mean increased cost to consumers. Quite possibly it will also mean less goods for sale at your local shops as there are fewer ways of getting goods in.

The government has it's head in the sand! And the next one will be no different... But that's ok, they are set for the rest of their life, so they don't care!:Oi: I'd like to give them a reality check for the average person on the street!

[merv]

Ha ha and clogging the rush hour streets with vehicles belching diesel fumes into the air is really going to make the point that these things that motorcyclists complain about dropping diesel on the Rimutaka Hill among other things (I never mentioned that earlier), is really going to endear us to their presence. Get as many trucks off the road as we can I say and come up with a proper plan around balanced transport solutions, not just kneejerk over only the second rise in RUC in 19 years.

Here's a few examples found on a quick search as to how KBers in Welly just love trucks and that was only looking for the spill element:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=53017

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=50467

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=29166

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=23316

Anyway this country has freedom of speech, so sure, they can protest if they like, but there will be totally mixed reactions to them similar to what occurs with union strikes.

[imdying]

They should try driving at 90 instead of 110 if they want to decrease their costs. Truckies have lobbied for years to control transport in NZ, and helped turn out rail service shite as a result, a little pain won't hurt them. Everything will go up a result... well news flash, it's going up anyway.

[cooneyr]

LOL - having fun merv :D Want to explain to the others what you do for a job. Funny thing is I'm on the other side of the same fence and I agree. Trucks do not pay their way at the moment.

Pavement damage for example. A pavement (road surfacing, base course, sub base and sub grade) has a finite life (the gravels eventually break down and are no longer strong enough). One fully laden truck does approximately as much damage to the pavement as 5000 cars (note I said approximate because it depends a lot on what the pavement is made off). From what I can figure from this document (http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/publications/docs/road-user-charges.pdf) there is a factor of about 65 (type 1 2 tonne veh compared to 23 tonne type 14 (truck) plus a 23 tonne type 28 (trailer))

Second example is roadway capacity. If the traffic stream is entirely trucks the capacity of road is significantly less than if the traffic stream is cars i.e. around 1/2.

Freight should be on facilities that are much more capable of carrying it than roads. Yes the price of goods will increase but in case you haven't noticed fuel has the same effect. I believe we are in for a time of significant change with respect to transport and while it is going to be hard for some to accept thats the way it is.

I'm not that close to these things but it seems to me that somebody so figure out how much the latest 10c increase in fuel is going to cost a trucking firm per year then compare that to how much the latest increase in RUC is going to cost the firm per year. This would be very interesting because I dont see the trucking firms protesting the fuel prices! All we need is the KM's a truck covers per year, the fuel consumption per km of a truck and the weight of the truck.

Taking of the professional hat for a bit - For to long we have followed the American development model (1/4 section, low density, poor public transport urban sprawl). We do not, repeat do not, want out cities to end up like LA with all its transport problems (and the unbelievably large investment to try and counter them). I seriously believe that we will in 20 years be well and truly along the path towards the European model of development with good public transport and high density development. All these changes of increased fuel costs, increased RUC, more stringent regs for car re safety, emissions etc are the stick in the equation and if you have been observant you would have noticed that PT services have been improving significantly, there are more cycle ways more pedestrian friendly facilities i.e. the carrot (you can beat the donkey with a stick to get it to do something and you can lead the donkey with a carrot - humans are more complex so it requires a bit of the stick and the carrot). The key thing that isn't keeping up is the public and their perception of what is "right". Times are a changin, get with the game.

/rant

Cheers R

[merv]

Well I used to work for the rail industry until 1999 and sit outside it now.

I never heard the truck lobby on here shout out loud how great the Labour Government was for agreeing to go into trials with 50 tonne instead of 44 tonne trucks http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0805/S00606.htm. (Note in NZ typically one rail wagon alone is 72 tonnes - about a 56 tonne payload - light by world standards)

If the tare is say 10 tonnes, then the load increases from 34 to 40 tonnes - that's an almost 18% productivity improvement. Funny I wasn't hearing anyone talk about reduced costs over this one.

Greens don't like it of course http://www.greens.org.nz/node/19113

Bloody juggernauts :yes:.

[Mr Merde]

Wish I could be there. I'm sick of these govt cunts changing the rules over and over again. I wish there was some mechanism whereby we could tell them to FUCK OFF.

growl!

DB


There is, its called an "ELECTION"

[Jorja]

:2thumbsup All main centres on Friday 7.30am to 9.30am 4th July 2008 truckies will be converging on main centres like Queen Street Auckland to show there disgust at the recent user charge increase by the government after absolutely no consultation as promised! show your support...these charges will be passed onto YOU the customer...if you think that times are hard now, & if the government keeps making its own decisions things are going th get even harder!

Rather than doing a rolling strike which will inconvenience the general public I recon they should all drive to the beehive and start dumping their loads on the lawns. :lol:

No one has mentioned the $60 rise in registration fees for diesels. Or the $30 rise for bikes and cars. That came into effect 1/7/08 and it was kept very quiet. For someone like me with a diesel van it is a hugh increase. Plus I also get the ruc increases!!!:eek5:

FOR SALE: 1 Toyota Liteace Noah 8 seater van

[tri boy]

The Govt knows the economy has slowed to a crawl. Hence tax intake from GST on spending etc is about to dry up, so they will be raising ALL forms of set tax as quickly as they can.
Remember, govts do not decrease there earnings no matter what is happening in the real world. You can expect booze, smokes, road user, rego, etc to keep climbing while YOUR income in real terms is diminished.
Welcome to the recession.:argue:
There is also the major capital works program that is "Transmission Gully" that govt is finally admitting the country needs. (50yrs after the US was going to build it for free:brick:). That will end up costing double the $Billion odd that they claim. Guess who is paying for that.........

[imdying]

*snip stuff about density etc*Do you think we'll actually get there (baaad traffic) given the price of gas? I see bugger all cars on my way to work every morning... it's been getting better and better since the price of gas got to $2 :D What's happened in Auckland? You guys are a lot more screwed than us for public transport + Auckland is much larger... but have you guys noticed a reduction in the amount of vehicles commuting every morning?

[Pixie]

I have been wondering...
There is always a train heading up or down the country and invariably you see a lot of empty flatbed rail wagons. If kiwirail were smart, they would allow (for a minimal fee, of course) people to park their cars on them and move them around the country. Throw on a passenger carriage for the cage occupants to amuse themselves and hey-presto! another income stream for them.

What's this Kiwirail shit?

As far as I'm concerned it's LeftRail
Just as the bank is LeftBank in my book

[Nasty]

I have recieved on email re the protests:


Just spoken to the people in the know - tomorrow the truckies - are going to drive below their speed limit - so below 80k and they are going to drive 2 a breast on the passing lanes etc - so our trip to town would be lower than 80k when we can.

The night drivers are going to meet in paek/pram and start from there 6.30 - 7.00 start and head to town in convoy below speed limits - the are expecting over 1000 trucks + the night drivers

[imdying]

I can see into the future... yes... my ride to work tomorrow will include some footpath action... yes... :yes:

[mowgli]

Quite right, it's a bloody stealth tax on everything we buy, food and petrol prices have gone crazy enough without this crafty shiftyness. :girlfight:
Stealth tax indeed. Raising RUC pushes up the costs for consumables which in turn increases the GST take. Govt gets two bites of the cherry.

[Swoop]

What's happened in Auckland? You guys are a lot more screwed than us for public transport + Auckland is much larger... but have you guys noticed a reduction in the amount of vehicles commuting every morning?
Personally, I have seen a massive reduction in congestion and quantity of vehicles on the road each morning. The afternoons remain the same however. This is West Auck. but I would be interested in North + South views on this.
You are correct. Auckland's public transport infrastructure is mediocre at best.

[Flatcap]

I have to have a giggle - everything Labour touches at the moment turns to shit.

It's almost like slapstick

[Tank]

Thats a daft statement. The govt collects FAR more money from road taxes etc than they spend on the roads. Its a fucking ripoff.

DB


Ah are you dafter than me and drinking too much Tui or something? Ever read this http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Images/NewFolder-2/Overview-for-pdf.pdf ?

Key point being:

3.3 Who pays for the roading network?

Road users pay 62% ($2.3 billion per annum) and ratepayers pay 8% ($0.3 million per
annum). The main components of the user and related charges are:

tadda yadda yadda

.


Yeah 'ol DB's never been big on facts - he prefers to rely on sweeping generalities, hearsay, rumour and urban legends.

[merv]

I have recieved on email re the protests:

So will the cops ping them for failing to keep left unless passing etc etc while other motorists :angry2:?

Me, I'll take it easy and take the train :woohoo:.

[Patch]

not too many peeps are travelling Ti Rakau Drive any more.


If this crazy extortion of our money continues, we'll experience a recession shortly - then we might know what hard is.

Something has to give.


Kissing China's ass won't help much either.

[merv]

OK here's an update for the Welly folk straight from our friendly Police.

They are letting the right to protest over-rule the lives of ordinary folk - nice guys the Police huh!

Now will it be 100 trucks or 1,000 trucks like Nasty's informant said?

[Toaster]

Hmmm maybe tomorrow is a bad day to go to work in the CBD then! Its going to be either a very early or a late start!

[jafar]

[QUOTE=merv;1632479]Well I used to work for the rail industry until 1999 and sit outside it now.

I never heard the truck lobby on here shout out loud how great the Labour Government was for agreeing to go into trials with 50 tonne instead of 44 tonne trucks http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0805/S00606.htm. (Note in NZ typically one rail wagon alone is 72 tonnes - about a 56 tonne payload - light by world standards)

If the tare is say 10 tonnes, then the load increases from 34 to 40 tonnes - that's an almost 18% productivity improvement. Funny I wasn't hearing anyone talk about reduced costs over this one.

Greens don't like it of course http://www.greens.org.nz/node/19113

Well @ least your consistant Merv, twisting facts & throwing absolute bullshit out there to justify your one eyed view that the Road Transport industry is satans spawn & the Rail is virtue personified. :spanking:

Fact of it is that costs for ALL operators including RAIL have gone way up & your going to pay for it @ the cashiers desk , just like everyone else.:devil2:

If a 'B train' can be found with a TARE of 10 tonnes then it is probably a toy one. You can expect the TARE on a 'B train' to be around 18 tonne, this is in a large part due to believe it or not , "Road User Charges".This system is designed around the concept that the more tyres on the road the less damage will be done to that road. This is why we have truck & trailer units running around @ only 44 tonnes when they have the axle & tyre capacity to operate well over 70 tonnes. :stupid:

[Toaster]

Good on them. It's about time NZ grew some fucking nuts.

Agreed and well said, we need NZ'ers to start protesting a lot more! - the Govt and big companies have gotten away with it too long and we just took it in the arse and have ended up paying way too much for everything.

Look at the electricity industry - was deregulated to provide lower prices and all we got was rampant premium hikes and profiteering by foreign owned companies.

Rail was the same - run down to nothing and profits flogged in exchange for little or no service.

[enigma51]

They have my support even if it means i have to sit with the misses 207 in the traffic

[jafar]

Hmmm any day is a bad day to go to work in the CBD!

Much better :whistle:

[merv]

OK jafar if a B Train really is 18 tonnes then the payload goes from 26 tonnes to 32 tonnes, a 23% improvement. Now are they twisted or bullshit facts or are you just being stupid? So you have been such a nice chap to point out I was being far too conservative with my numbers and the real answer is some much better figure.

Again I will say - where were the positive comments from the road industry about this? No champagne celebrations hit the news that I was aware of.

As for the wheels and damage stuff cooneyr has already laid that out for you.

p.s. is this why you are USA bound - to go where the rail wagons run at gross weights of more like 125 tonnes.

[trustme]

I'm part of that nasty transport industry although my income is not derived from transport as such , it is merely a component of what I do
Ultimately I dont give a shit how much they charge for RUC as I can just charge it on, but I do get tired of all the talk of damage to the roads
In the UK you see single screw tractor units & 2 axle semis in the US , its tandem drive tractors & 2 axle trailers , they carry the same weight as us & the roads cope . They build better roads designed for more severe weather & traffic conditions, they do it right unlike our cheapskate roads. I have seen reworked sections fall apart in 2 weeks ,[ the old tar hill sth of Kinlieth comes to mind ] Trucks are hard on roads I dont deny that but we build shit roads that dont last
Trucks can carry more legally but dont think for one minute that means more profit for the transport company, their rates have stagnated for years
15 years ago we got around $ 200 for a 20' off the wharf to Sth Ak & empty return [$400/40'] These rates are still fairly close to current market rates although they are starting to climb.
Merv are you still working for the same pay u got 15 years ago. Have the transport company wage bills , fuel bills, R&M, capital invested in plant all stayed constant, I don't think so, that is possible because the tranport industry has increased its efficiency & productivity
I refuse to cart off the wharf any longer , there is no money in it , I get the other dummies to do it for nothing , but I sure as hell understand why they have got the shits

[merv]

Nah told you I was in rail until '99, now relaxing on a whole lot less pay than I used to get - for a while I was on half, now crept back up to about 2/3. Kids have left home, son already working, daughter started working having just finished Uni so my costs might finally go down. I'm off on holiday next week. If it wasn't for my Bro' getting cancer life could be sweet right now.

Besides, I'm not a protesting type :whistle:

I've never said truckers are bad either, I've just said there needs to be a balanced approach approach to transport in this country. In the end if there isn't we all pay - the pollution, safety etc issues do matter - we end up paying somewhere for it.

[trustme]

So you reduced running costs, good on ya , so have I
I have tried to use rail on quite a few occasions over the last 5/6 years , I am not bonded to trucks & will use whatever is the most cost effective.
Almost without fail they fucked it up, they failed to complete tasks , their invoices were b/s & at times incomprehensible. failed to supply rolling stock when promised

Picture this , 50 x 40' containers to be delivered to wharf for a specific vessel . Rail promises to provide wagons to an agreed schedule
Rail fails to supply,so 10 x 40' go by road because if we dont meet the vessel we don't get paid & we go broke
Rail invoices for 50 containers , we refuse to pay so they heavy us with a statutory demand
Call their bluff with lawyers etc , rail come to senses & we pay for 40

This was not an isolated incidence , we had numerous situations like it
I dont expect it to improve with the buy out , rail will be back to being a political football , with decisions being made for political reasons & sound financial management will come a distant second

[Qkchk]

I will be dusting off the logbook and changing out of my office clothes into my Hi-Vis tomorrow. Will be out in my old truck (DAN96) but will be staying well clear of the CBD! (Co-Mingle Recycle never sleeps!) No doubt I will hear all about it on the RT.... Feel bloody sorry for the OD's, they are getting raped from each and every side!

[jafar]

OK jafar if a B Train really is 18 tonnes then the payload goes from 26 tonnes to 32 tonnes, a 23% improvement. Now are they twisted or bullshit facts or are you just being stupid? So you have been such a nice chap to point out I was being far too conservative with my numbers and the real answer is some much better figure.

Again I will say - where were the positive comments from the road industry about this? No champagne celebrations hit the news that I was aware of.

As for the wheels and damage stuff cooneyr has already laid that out for you.

p.s. is this why you are USA bound - to go where the rail wagons run at gross weights of more like 125 tonnes.

Ok I'll break it down into really small words so you can understand :msn-wink:
Yes a "b train" average TARE weight is around 18 tonnes.
The 50 tonne was NOT introduced so what savings ?
The damage to the roads from trucks is more than paid by RUC / Fuel Tax.
Re your p.s. sorry mate but I heard that you might be bored if I stayed away so ...... I'M BACK :bleh:

[Street Gerbil]

I think tomorrow I will commute to work from Mt. Welly to Penrose via Queen St. just for the heck of it. Go truckies!

[PirateJafa]

They should try driving at 90 instead of 110 if they want to decrease their costs. Truckies have lobbied for years to control transport in NZ, and helped turn out rail service shite as a result, a little pain won't hurt them. Everything will go up a result... well news flash, it's going up anyway.
Rail has obvious disadvantages over road in both time (a couple of hours per load from Auckland to Tauranga and vice versa on a truck), and in rail's amazing ability to lose our containers. Usually several at once. You'd think several 25 tonne forty-foot equivalent units would be hard to misplace. Yet they still manage it.

[Motu]

The poor truckies are powerless now.Back in the good old days of unions,Bob Anderson would of called them all out on strike and crippled the country.

[jafar]

Rail has obvious disadvantages over road in both time (a couple of hours per load from Auckland to Tauranga and vice versa on a truck), and in rail's amazing ability to lose our containers. Usually several at once. You'd think several 25 tonne forty-foot equivalent units would be hard to misplace. Yet they still manage it.

Now that takes teamwork :devil2:

[jafar]

The poor truckies are powerless now.Back in the good old days of unions,Bob Anderson would of called them all out on strike and crippled the country.

Ahh the good old days, when the NDU ruled the roads & Bob was treated as a God. The union made sure that driving was the best paid occupation out there & if the boss got up your nose you could call BOB & have the whole union in the carpark within seconds. The boss would have to back down ,either that or be forced out of business.:devil2:

Bring back BOB

[skidMark]

I have been wondering...
There is always a train heading up or down the country and invariably you see a lot of empty flatbed rail wagons. If kiwirail were smart, they would allow (for a minimal fee, of course) people to park their cars on them and move them around the country. Throw on a passenger carriage for the cage occupants to amuse themselves and hey-presto! another income stream for them.


They send the empty ones for the return trip for the other goods.

IE more stuff to pickup in welly than chch....train leaves chch with extra empty wagons so there will be enough in wellington.

[Robert Taylor]

It's all a freakin ripoff! Fuel has increased out of sight for truckies. Then the re-licencing goes up, now the RUC. Many truckies are on the knife-edge already. This is going to mean many of them going out of business. Also, it will mean increased cost to consumers. Quite possibly it will also mean less goods for sale at your local shops as there are fewer ways of getting goods in.

The government has it's head in the sand! And the next one will be no different... But that's ok, they are set for the rest of their life, so they don't care!:Oi: I'd like to give them a reality check for the average person on the street!

It also shows just how totally out of touch these morons are that are ''running'' the country. I hope that they get the biggest electoral drubbing that they have ever had. November cannot arrive soon enough.

[The Stranger]

Now that takes teamwork :devil2:

Aye, that it does. As a lad I was contracted to work at the marshalling yards at Otahuhu.
What an experience.
Amazing how the manager could never find a wagon parked on a siding along side the car park - until it had been emptied that is. Then it was conveniently found again.
It was always interesting when a wagon came through and no one knew the contents. It you ram it hard enough viola, the contents appear before your eyes. Looks rather cool when it happens to be crates of beer.

[Quasievil]

It seems that already that this thread has turned away from the focus, we should actually be suporting anyone or any group that has the balls to stand up to this un democratic government, but looking at the thread so far a few of you seem hellp bent on proving each other wrong, but then again this is KB where its "full of love and disrespect" !

I for one dont give a rats monkeys about damage to the roads or train vs truck efficency, thats not what this is about, I will be there on the side of the road tomorrow morning applauding the few who are making a stand, I will leave the keyboard squaller to some of you lot.

:oi-grr:

[trustme]

Bob was a waste of space . Drivers were poorly paid & still are .
Bob got them a drivers day picnic , whoopdee shit
Drivers have compliance issues that few understand, CVIU are jack booted , boiler suited revenue gathering gestapo
How can drivers be controlled in the number of hours they can work but doctors in a hospital can work all the hours under the sun
Go the truckies, a little bit of civil disobedience never hurt anyone.

[cooneyr]

.....This system is designed around the concept that the more tyres on the road the less damage will be done to that road. This is why we have truck & trailer units running around @ only 44 tonnes when they have the axle & tyre capacity to operate well over 70 tonnes. :stupid:

See below.


....... but I do get tired of all the talk of damage to the roads
In the UK you see single screw tractor units & 2 axle semis in the US , its tandem drive tractors & 2 axle trailers , they carry the same weight as us & the roads cope . They build better roads designed for more severe weather & traffic conditions, they do it right unlike our cheapskate roads....

Nothing to do with what the trucks are capable of carrying - its all about the ability of the pavement to carry the loads. For our pavements to carry more load we need 150 to 200 mm thick concrete pavements or 100-150mm thick hotmix (asphalt) pavements like they do in the States/Europe etc. Problem is to do this would cost much more than a current pavement will cost (some where in the order of 10 times more). Only way to fund this is increased RUC, petrol tax etc i.e. user pays.


..... I have tried to use rail on quite a few occasions over the last 5/6 years , I am not bonded to trucks & will use whatever is the most cost effective.
Almost without fail they fucked it up, they failed to complete tasks , their invoices were b/s & at times incomprehensible. failed to supply rolling stock when promised.....

So there is nothing wrong with rail other than it is run poorly - seems simple too to me, it needs provide a good service it needs to be profitable. One way to do that is to get more goods on it - higher RUC will do that.


......
The damage to the roads from trucks is more than paid by RUC / Fuel Tax.......

Ah - no its not. You obviously didn't read Merv's post quoted below or the link in it.


.... read this http://www.transport.govt.nz/assets/Images/NewFolder-2/Overview-for-pdf.pdf ?

Key point being:

3.3 Who pays for the roading network?

Road users pay 62% ($2.3 billion per annum) and ratepayers pay 8% ($0.3 million per
annum). The main components of the user and related charges are:

• Fuel Excise Duty $1079m
• Road User Charges $584m
• Motor Vehicle Fees $568m
• Other charges (Fire Service Insurance levy, Policy fines) $99m
• TLA Roading rates $288m

Note that these figures include the proportion of fuel excise which goes to the Crown
Account as well as that going to the National Land Transport Fund.

This leaves a shortfall of 30% ($1.1 billion per annum) which is primarily linked to two
areas of costs.


It seems that already that this thread has turned away from the focus, we should actually be suporting anyone or any group that has the balls to stand up to this un democratic government, but looking at the thread so far a few of you seem hellp bent on proving each other wrong, but then again this is KB where its "full of love and disrespect" !

I for one dont give a rats monkeys about damage to the roads or train vs truck efficency, thats not what this is about, I will be there on the side of the road tomorrow morning applauding the few who are making a stand, I will leave the keyboard squaller to some of you lot.

:oi-grr:

We personally I'm on the side of the Goverment. We all want better roads, less congestion, better services yet none of us want to pay for it. Grow up people - the governments money (our money) all comes from us so if we want more we have to pay. What is far more relevant is excess bureaucracy we currently have to endure.

Cheers R

[Patch]

Glad I'm not an OD anymore, its hard enough now without all those overheads going up and having the parent company expect you to keep working longer hours for no increase in delivery rate.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee149/patchTLR/Truckbullbars.jpg

<object height="344" width="425">

<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MRrIhWLu0-Q&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" height="344" width="425"></object>

[MD]

It also shows just how totally out of touch these morons are that are ''running'' the country. I hope that they get the biggest electoral drubbing that they have ever had. November cannot arrive soon enough.

+1
Day after day the current Goverment seem hell bent on pissing off as many voters as possible until election day! Go labour keep it up!! And thanks Labour for helping those opposed to your draconian rule to awaken the other misguided fools that voted you in - to vote you out. A little pain now is worth it to ensure an election landside kick up Labour's arse.

In a week they increased vehicle registration; then increased the ACC levy in petrol sales and just in case they hadn't upset everyone in the country, they increase RUC. What's for tomorrow?

[Qkchk]

Would be interesting to see how many on this thread have actually been in a truck let alone drive/driven one as a professional................ :dodge: Just with all these quotes flying around... :whistle:

[trustme]

So there is nothing wrong with rail other than it is run poorly - seems simple too to me, it needs provide a good service it needs to be profitable. One way to do that is to get more goods on it - higher RUC will do that.


So increasing RUC will result in a more efficient rail system

WAHOO , I can't wait , This I gotta see

[Kickaha]

Would be interesting to see how many on this thread have actually been in a truck let alone drive/driven one as a professional

Any time I do it just reminds me what a fuckwit the average motorist is





So there is nothing wrong with rail other than it is run poorly - seems simple too to me, it needs provide a good service it needs to be profitable. One way to do that is to get more goods on it - higher RUC will do that.



Why not just go back to the old 120km rule then?( I think it was 120)

If it could be carted on a train then you couldn't do it by truck if it was more than 120km (or something like that) although there were a few exemptions

I can remember Dad getting a ticket for it

[sinfull]

It seems that already that this thread has turned away from the focus, we should actually be suporting anyone or any group that has the balls to stand up to this un democratic government, but looking at the thread so far a few of you seem hellp bent on proving each other wrong, but then again this is KB where its "full of love and disrespect" !

I for one dont give a rats monkeys about damage to the roads or train vs truck efficency, thats not what this is about, I will be there on the side of the road tomorrow morning applauding the few who are making a stand, I will leave the keyboard squaller to some of you lot.

:oi-grr:
Yeah sort of wishing i had a coffee machine that would run in my car, sure there are gonna be a lot of coffee drinkers at parliment morra morn, as after all the ruc increase is gonna hit me in the pocket too driving a deisel aint it ?

[Meekey_Mouse]

I say go the truckies :D Wish I could be up there to support them!!

[tri boy]

So there is nothing wrong with rail other than it is run poorly - seems simple too to me, it needs provide a good service it needs to be profitable. One way to do that is to get more goods on it - higher RUC will do that.

Cheers R

Sorry mate, your comparing apples with oranges.
NZ Rail/ Toll/ Kiwi Rail, call it what you wish, will only be competitive with heavy, bulk items, in high tonnage/volume.
(Been debating, and learning this subject through my bro in law who has been a contract manager with rail for 20+yrs).

[Kickaha]

One thing about getting more freight on trains is that while it may result in less trucks on the main transport routes it will need more trucks in the urban areas to cart the increased freight volume to and from rail

[Ocean1]

NZ Rail/ Toll/ Kiwi Rail, call it what you wish, will only be competitive with heavy, bulk items, in high tonnage/volume.


Now that 90% of the local infrastructure has been abandoned.

NZR is a macro version of the rest of NZ, there are so many regulatory constraints it's actually not possible to do anything. I wanted to put a non-scheduled rail delivery on the local line a couple of years ago, would have been easier to get clearance for a fookin' loco to depart Heathrow.

[imdying]

One thing about getting more freight on trains is that while it may result in less trucks on the main transport routes it will need more trucks in the urban areas to cart the increased freight volume to and from rail

Why's that? The big ones on the main transport routes are only going to depots (sort of like a train station!), not door to door?

[Pedrostt500]

Go the Truckies, If you can get to 80kmph down SH2 between lower hutt and wellington 7.30am to 9.30 am then you are doing well.
my memory of rail in the 70s and 80s was that most bussnesses avoided using rail because of Theft, it was hard to send goods by rail say Auckland to Wellington, with out your consighnment being tampered with or lost. If the government realy wanted to improve rail they would have allowed competition of a second or third rail provider, and just kept the tracks.

[tri boy]

Now listen very carefully class, choochoo trains are not designed to pick up, and drop off mrs Jones poodle food, or master Bates's subscriptions to hog farmers weekly. (these are low weight, low volume items that burn more man hours, and rolling stock space than they are worth).
Please turn to page 5 of your colouring books, and colour in the BIG LONG choo choo train, and then the little biddy road truck.
Afterwards you can have a glass of milk, and a sleep/wee on the mat.
Johnny! Stop scaring the goldfish!
:calm:

[Kickaha]

Why's that? The big ones on the main transport routes are only going to depots (sort of like a train station!), not door to door?

I haven't had anything to do with the heavy truck industry for a few years, but when I did a lot used to load at Major clients yards direct onto the B train or 43 footer and unload at the clients yard in whatever main centre they're going to, or would load direct from the client at one end and unload at the Depot to tranship at the other

With Rail you don't have that option, you have to have trucks at both ends to service the freight

[trustme]

Lets put Thomas away for a moment.

We have an economy that is in recession , part of the reason for our economic downturn is sky rocketing fuel prices , has any one filled the bike lately ?.
Winners out of the fuel increase3 has been the govt , dearer the fuel the more money they get , they profit from our pain.
At the coal face is the transport industry , fuel costs arguably hurt them more than anyone else although eventually we all pay.

So explain to me ,Fuel costs rise, the economy dies , we suffer , the govt profits, & then they line up for some more. The economy is limping so lets just kick it in the knees !!
What is the rationale behind this thinking.

[cooneyr]

Would be interesting to see how many on this thread have actually been in a truck let alone drive/driven one as a professional................ :dodge: Just with all these quotes flying around... :whistle:

Actually I drove for a firm for 6 months 8 years ago but it was so dodgy it got closed down by LTNZ (LTSA back then). I regularly did 20+ hour days carting apples around Tasman. Any guesses who I'm talking about.


So increasing RUC will result in a more efficient rail system

WAHOO , I can't wait , This I gotta see

Less price difference or possibly a positive price difference for rail will encourage more goods onto rail which one can only hope will mean that the rail service provider will have to pick up their game. I know this is a tenuous relationship and it will take a long time to improve but increased road freight charges can only help rail if the rail service providers have any brains (the lack thereof is the real problem though I think).


Sorry mate, your comparing apples with oranges.
NZ Rail/ Toll/ Kiwi Rail, call it what you wish, will only be competitive with heavy, bulk items, in high tonnage/volume.
(Been debating, and learning this subject through my bro in law who has been a contract manager with rail for 20+yrs).

True to an extent. Palatalised and containerised freight has made a huge difference to the ability of rail to carry non "bulk" goods.


One thing about getting more freight on trains is that while it may result in less trucks on the main transport routes it will need more trucks in the urban areas to cart the increased freight volume to and from rail

How - the major trucking firms have been running the hub based system for a while now i.e. use local trucks to deliver from a hub. With a rail system local trucks deliver from the rail hub. Difference is that the rail yards are controlled by a monopoly and it makes life hard for private firms to get access to the containers, goods, etc. This (along with scheduling) is one of the key issues.

Cheers R

[Genestho]

This govt is committing continual election suicide! Or theyre extremely cocky?

Fancy not warning the Industry of the price hike?


As an official ex labour supporter, I say bonvoyage to this arrogance and good riddance!

RockOn Truckies! Make Some NOISE!!!!
Oh the times they are changin

[trustme]

Raising RUC to make trucks less cost effective simply enshrines rails lack of efficiency because it gives them a protected market , maybe we should go back to transport liscensing & the 100 km limit . Think how efficient rail would be then, you guys are probably too young to remember
I must be an old fart to remember those days. old & cynical.

[BiK3RChiK]

Did anyone see Annette King on the news tonight? She needs either the :bash: or :2guns: because her attitude just sucks! She needs a massive wake-up to reality for the average person on the street. She thinks this only affects trucking companies! and they don't pay enough towards our roads!! It's called 'Justification' Ms King and kiwi's are utterly sick and tired of hearing it! What bloody planet is she on? Because it sure isn't the same one I'm on!!!

If I say any more, I'll never stop!:mad:

[merv]

As for the surprise thing that sounds like a load of crap because it sounded like King and Friedlander had been talking about this for a while and even the protests were said to have been planned weeks ago.

[Street Gerbil]

This govt is committing continual election suicide! Or theyre extremely cocky?


Or should we say "penisy"?..

Labor is soooo going down!
However from my overseas experience, the first thing Nat's do after wining the elections, is expressing their willingness to stand by decisions of the previous "democratically elected government". I waited for so many elections in the past twenty years. And my favorite candidates went into office and nothing ever changed... Please, please, this one time, prove me wrong!

[Motu]

... Please, please, this one time, prove me wrong!

I suspect (in fact I know!) that you will be among the millions of disappointed voters.There will be changes,and a small amount will be good.....only the colour of the ties will change.

[MaxB]

One thing I heard from the pollies on the radio was the blaming of trucks for harming the environment. (As a reason to reclaim costs like RUC from the industry to clean up their "mess"). BUT the Euros have just passed regs stating that the air coming out of a truck has to be cleaner than that going in. Heaps of Euro trucks here already confrom to this. I know M.A.N. and Scania do, not sure about the rest. Trucks are way cleaner than our locos.

People just don't know that our rolling stock is shit. Most engines are diesel electric from the 60s with clapped out technology. Also what do they think burns to provide the 1000kW for each prime mover?

This Govt and their advisors are the worst combination of arrogance and ignorance. I hope that the truckies bring the cities to their knees for a short time. Some folks need that wake up call.

[Rollestonchick]

Truckies have my support:2thumbsup. Wish i could be there.

[Patch]

Interesting to hear King and the other idiot disputing about which pricing model they should be using to calculate the fee structure.
Put a Business Owner (BO) & an Owner Driver (OD) in the mix and they'll have something different as well.

The pricing model has always been a contentious argument. Half the problem is these idiots have no fucking clue what it takes to run a truck.

They also blame the trucks for screwing up the road - more bullshit. Sure they do add more wear and tear to bitumen (compared to the Jones' remuera tractor) but not to the extent they make out.
If we had half decent road crews who knew how to lay a decent fucking piece of bitumen - but instead we have monkeys who don't give a shit.

Europe does not have the bitumen problems we do and there rigs are bigger, heavier and travel a lot faster.


Fuck u labour.

[cooneyr]

....They also blame the trucks for screwing up the road - more bullshit. Sure they do add more wear and tear to bitumen (compared to the Jones' remuera tractor) but not to the extent they make out.
If we had half decent road crews who knew how to lay a decent fucking piece of bitumen - but instead we have monkeys who don't give a shit.

Europe does not have the bitumen problems we do and there rigs are bigger, heavier and travel a lot faster......

Dude read some of my posts. The trucks do fuck the road much much faster than any private vehicle ever will. Cars basically do not damage the roads. The weather and trucks are pretty much the only things that ruin roads. And don't compare our roads to the USA/Europe. Our roads are not designed to be anywhere near as strong as theirs cause we simply cannot afford it.

Going back to the point of the thread I have no trouble with the truckies protesting but if they are going to get upset about the RUC then protest about the fuel increase as well. We as a nation have decided that people trying to make a buck is OK (i.e. fuel price rises) but if the government decides that they need to increase prices (taxes) then the get the shit kicked out of them.

As far as road building materials are concerned there has been huge jumps in the price of steel and bitumen (these cost ~2x what they did only 3 to 5 years ago) and in case you hadn't noticed diesel, all of which are required to build roads. How is the government suppose to afford these super highways if they can't get a bit more money in the coffers. The one thing I think the government could do is explain this a little better with some real numbers. The data is there just get somebody to crunch it.

Cheers R

[Flatcap]

As far as road building materials are concerned there has been huge jumps in the price of steel and bitumen

I thought our roads were made out of whatever shit rock had just been blasted from the nearest hill.....

[jim.cox]

just makes me more even more convinced...

...that rail is a better way to move freight

[Murray]

Lets put Thomas away for a moment.

So explain to me ,Fuel costs rise, the economy dies , we suffer , the govt profits, & then they line up for some more. The economy is limping so lets just kick it in the knees !!
What is the rationale behind this thinking.

Quite simple - more people unemployed and dependent of social welfare governmenet handouts therefore tied into having to vote for a labour government.

[Sanx]

Dude read some of my posts. The trucks do fuck the road much much faster than any private vehicle ever will. Cars basically do not damage the roads. The weather and trucks are pretty much the only things that ruin roads. And don't compare our roads to the USA/Europe. Our roads are not designed to be anywhere near as strong as theirs cause we simply cannot afford it.

Oh bullshit. NZ can afford decent roads. It's just that the authorities concerned know that they can get away with doing the cheapest nastiest shitiest job possible preferring short-term gain to long-term savings.

Sure - the initial capital costs would go up, but the savings resulting from not having the road crews out every two weeks to patch up jobs done only six months previously would more than likely cover it. The more decent roads you build, the fewer repairs you need. Do what every other country in the world does and absorb those costs over the expected lifetime of the road itself. It's simple economics, but obviously not quite simple enough for Komrade Helen and Politburo-of-fools to understand.

[Patch]

Dude read some of my posts. The trucks do fuck the road much much faster than any private vehicle ever will. Cars basically do not damage the roads.
Fuckoff Noddy. Anybody using our shit roads will fuck them - they're crap cause the monkeys making the roads are fuckin useless.


Can't afford it?? How the fuck does Grandpa Cullen end up with a 4 billion dollar surplus then??

$4,000,000,000

Who the hell are you trying to kid??

[Street Gerbil]

Just arrived to the office after my morning commute from Mt. Welly to Penrose via CBD. The truckies were awesome. Took some photos too but no card reader at work.

[cooneyr]

I thought our roads were made out of whatever shit rock had just been blasted from the nearest hill.....

There is a lot of bitumen in the surfacing and steel in the bridges/culverts/guardrails(dear I say it WRB), price increases in these goods are causing significant grief to the road construction industry.

In the north island that is what is used for aggregate and it is not actually that shitty. The Basalt rock blasted from the volcanoes is pretty bloody good, there aint that many volcanoes that the greenies will let us blow up though.


Oh bullshit. NZ can afford decent roads. It's just that the authorities concerned know that they can get away with doing the cheapest nastiest shitiest job possible preferring short-term gain to long-term savings.

Sure - the initial capital costs would go up, but the savings resulting from not having the road crews out every two weeks to patch up jobs done only six months previously would more than likely cover it. The more decent roads you build, the fewer repairs you need. Do what every other country in the world does and absorb those costs over the expected lifetime of the road itself. It's simple economics, but obviously not quite simple enough for Komrade Helen and Politburo-of-fools to understand.

All good in theory but where is all this additional money going to come from for the significantly larger up front capital costs? A loan, that's a bright idea - NOT. You are right that a better built road that will last longer but it is just not a financially viable option for NZ. Work investigating this was done right through the 70/80/90's. The expense of better pavements is not worth it.


Fuckoff Noddy. Anybody using our shit roads will fuck them - they're crap cause the monkeys making the roads are fuckin useless.


Can't afford it?? How the fuck does Grandpa Cullen end up with a 4 billion dollar surplus then??

$4,000,000,000

Who the hell are you trying to kid??

Whatever dude - you ever worked in a road crew or as professional engineer - I have/do. Yes there are monkeys in every profession but our roads are built to a good quality and to their design, which in turn is driven by the financial situation i.e. be we build the best roads we can afford. Call me noddy again when you have actually done some research and know what you are talking about - twat.

We have a surplus right - but you lot want a tax cut - make your minds up.

R

[trustme]

Estimated surplus 2.6 billion ,Actual surplus well over 5 Billion ,figures out this morning The economy is shrinking , but the govt take is increasing
I know !!! , why don,t we raise taxes
Still waiting for an explanation, besides that of my fellow cynic Murray.

My dearest Cooney , this is a recipe for a major recession
when an economy goes sour most governments take actions to stimulate an economy , our govt has taken the option of punishing the economy to preserve their surplus
Its the govt that wants it both ways, & we get it no ways
The truckies like everyone else just want a fair shake , that is why the public are so fiercely behind the truckies, the public also are sick of being screwed
Sullen is philosophically opposed to tax cuts, any reduction in personal tax cuts will be off set by an increase in indirect tax like RUC
These idiots in power have lost touch.

[Pixie]

They build better roads designed for more severe weather & traffic conditions, they do it right unlike our cheapskate roads. I have seen reworked sections fall apart in 2 weeks ,[ the old tar hill sth of Kinlieth comes to mind ]

They probably don't use the "roll the clay flat and paint it black" construction technique pioneered by Transit NZ.

[tri boy]

A bit off topic, but I think one of the reasons the govt/Cullen a bleeding more dollars out of joe average is that the huge Japanese Irradashi Bond investments in NZ are due to roll over Aug-Sept this year.(this investment is huge).
If they do not reinvest, (and why would they, things are getting shaky), then our dollar will plummet damn near overnight. (good stimulus for exporters, but the lag time could be an economy breaker).
I predict a Aus/NZ exchange at sub 75cents, closer to 70, or possibly less.
I'm wrong often though:pinch:(but I did predict the downturn 6months prior to main stream reporting):zzzz:

[cooneyr]

......My dearest Cooney , this is a recipe for a major recession
when an economy goes sour most governments take actions to stimulate an economy , our govt has taken the option of punishing the economy to preserve their surplus
Its the govt that wants it both ways, & we get it no ways
The truckies like everyone else just want a fair shake , that is why the public are so fiercely behind the truckies, the public also are sick of being screwed
Sullen is philosophically opposed to tax cuts, any reduction in personal tax cuts will be off set by an increase in indirect tax like RUC
These idiots in power have lost touch.

The timing is terrible, I agree completely.

Cheers R