Ardmore - need support!

[cheese]

Just got this email ----

WE GOT HAMMERED


We had the first day of the resource consent hearings for the track yesterday, and the residents gave us both barrels.

One of the residents started off quoting riders comments from the Kiwi biker website bragging about how loud the bikes are, we had another telling the court about the native trees we had either mutilated or cut down as well as the 27 Wednesday nights we had gone over time over the last year and ridden in the dark, despite the fact that the Council have had a compliance officer checking on every ride for the last year.

We had reports of bikes riding up the road, massive clouds of dust contaminating the residents water tanks and how there isn't enough water in the ponds to keep the track watered anyway. On Monday we will probably hear about the vast quantities of rubbish and mud we deposit into the stream, dust contaminating the grass on surrounding farms and that John Cobb is a Satan worshipper.

I was last out of the hearing on Friday, half expecting to find a lynch mob armed with pitch forks waiting outside.

Fortunately we had Maurice, who is a former Police Officer, refuting many of the claims, but the residents seemed skilled at presenting evidence at hearings and its fairly obvious that telling the truth isn't a requirement at RMA hearings because there is no cross examination. Apparently the noise from the bikes has impaired the hearing of at least one resident who lives over a kilometre from the track. Interesting because I have been at the track for just about every event we have ever held and when I did my St John medical this year I was told that I have perfect hearing.

Anyway, thanks to Mark and Neville for presenting evidence, Reinard, Jeremy and Paula for coming out to give us some support and to Maurice for making a strong submission in support. A former councilor with 18 years experience, Glenn Archibald also came to the hearings with a lawyer and made a submission before the hearing that the Council should have had the case heard only by an independent commissioner, due to conflicts of interest. The council is making the decision on our lease, is also determining our resource consent, has fought a legal battle with us over closing the track and has been exposed to a lot of media coverage over the last 2 years.

I am still hoping we get a fair hearing. Monday will tell, because the residents are not supposed to be able to all turn up and repeat the same arguments, so all that leaves for discussion is rubbish in the stream, our underground asbestos-fired nuclear power station and Satan worshipping.

If you can get out to the hearings at any time during Monday, a bit of moral support would be good for the submitters who are going to speak in support of the track. The hearings start at 9.30 and will run through to 5.00 at (the Papakura Council buildings) 35 Coles Cresent. You can park across the road in the Woolworths car park.

THANKS

BORIS

[CookMySock]

owch. commiserations, bud. I live too far away and know too little about it to be of any use.

DB

[Danger]

What a shame this has come up again. Not really sure what I can do to help but I hope that the truth prevails to overcome the anti bike zealouts.

[charles23]

fuckin mother fuckers!!!
fuck them!


couldn't have put it better myself.............ditto

[charles23]

how about a protest in support of the track like a blockage on the road or pick on one of the farkers and camp out on their front lawn?????????????????

[DEATH_INC.]

I can't be there either.
I feel sorry for you guys, fighting the handfull of selfish pricks that have nothing better to do than complain about a bit of noise and dust. If it makes you feel better they'll probably move on to the airfield next, with all the noise and fumes those damn planes make.......:shit:
Some people really are pathetic. :2guns:

[M0T0MAN]

fuckin mother fuckers!!!
fuck them!


Damn right! they just got nothing better to do with their time. The planes make more noise.

[Dakara]

Goodlcuk with the Ardmore residents. As you rightly said, they have experience presenting 'evidence' in court.

They fought the Airfield a few years back bacuase of the noise. An Airfield dating back to WWII. If you don't like the noise then don't move there!

Working all day monday (at Ardmore funnily enough), but all the best!

[camchain]

Sadly mud sticks and these folks are grabbing big handfuls of it. A measured and level headed response is best way to deal with the nonsense - which, by and large reveals itself with dumb ideas like hearing damage at 1 km away. We can't allow ourselves to be too distracted by the other issues raised by the local Ardmore residents though (Suggest reading Sun Tzu's 'Art Of War'). These are mainly distractions. Dust on the daisies isn't the issue - noise is.

Unfortunately, people who complain about motorcycle noise don't give a second thought about the racket their neighbour's lawnmower makes. Helpful info might be gained by going around the neighbourhood with a Db meter collecting some comparison data to present at RMA hearings. Next summer might be too late though.

Our frustration about what is fair or not and hand wringing aside, the simple fact is either WE DO SOMETHING about the noise ASAP or Ardmore (and places like it) will close.

Mufflers such as the super quiet, mechanically baffled one on the KLX450 are the future for dirt bikes.
Been pondering this issue and thought of John Britten who famously added a tweaked baked bean can to the muffler at scrutineering. It was either sort the problem or no racing. It worked.


Attached is a drawing for an easy to make muffler insert that would definitely show the council that riders are serious about wanting to keep Ardmore open. The residents could hardly dismiss the idea without appearing unreasonable. Almost certainly it would at least buy some time. It's far from perfect but it is a workable solution to the immediate problem. It could easily be adapted for any muffler type. (I know about the DB Dawg insert but I don't know how many are being bought and fitted - apparently not enough yet)

I'm an ex fitter-turner and would be happy to volunteer some time (I just don't have access to a workshop) to make a bunch of them up for John Cobb to hand out at the track.

[scott411]

we can get the bikes down to about 96db fairly easy,

the drawing you made will make bikes run very hot, and they would need to be rejetted, but it would make a big difference to moise level, and performance,

[cs363]

[QUOTE=scott411;1636684]we can get the bikes down to about 96db fairly easy,

the drawing you made will make bikes run very hot, and they would need to be rejetted, but it would make a big difference to moise level, and performance,[/QUOTE


x2 - I can't see anyone that rides at Ardmore putting up with the severe drop in performance that system would bring. Not to mention the reliability issues that it could cause as per Scott's post.
In my experience and I'm sure Scott would agree, one of the biggest problems is that people don't repack their mufflers often enough, properly or use the correct materials.
Most of the aftermarket pipe companies are offering silencers that are 96db or less now but that doesn't stop people removing baffles, spark arrestors (they are good for 1db by themselves in most cases) or poorly maintaining them. Then you have the problem with people 'modifying' (I use the term loosely...) their stock silencers to make them louder.

The solutions are already available whether they be quality aftermarket silencers or the silencer inserts that Scott sells, the problem will remain the individuals who can't see that noisy bikes will impact on us all in the end, whether its off or on road.

What you should do is set a noise limit for riding there and enforce it, the same as MNZ are doing in competition and many trail rides are doing now. Everyone needs to be on the same page with this and not be scared to enforce the rules. Even older pipes some of which are rated at over 100db can be quietened down to an acceptable level.
Most dealers should be able to assist with making bikes quieter, especially if they know whats good for their business.
Like the old ad in Kiwi Rider used to say: 'Noisy bike? leave it on the trailer wanker!'

[B0000M]

yea, what those guys said. it also seems that usually the slowest bike on the track is the noisiest too, which probably comes down to poor maintenance. muffler packing isnt expensive, and its a quick easy task to do.

[telliman]

my view is that noise has nothing to do with it, its merely an excuse.
they just dont want a mx track in there neighbourhood point blank!!!
and eventually they will get there way.

[scott411]

my view is that noise has nothing to do with it, its merely an excuse.
they just dont want a mx track in there neighbourhood point blank!!!
and eventually they will get there way.


i disagree

since the four strokes became more popular, the tracks have got harder to keep open, noise is our biggest problem

[cs363]

Noise may be just an excuse in this case, however why give them the ammunition to shoot you with?
As Scott says the advent of 4-strokes has driven the noise issue and there is no point burying your head in the sand just because your pissed at a bunch of anti-bike types.
As with any issue, the first step to solving it is swallowing your pride and admitting there is a problem.

[dammad1]

my view is that noise has nothing to do with it, its merely an excuse.
they just dont want a mx track in there neighbourhood point blank!!!
and eventually they will get there way.

Yep, I agree, they could be dead silent and people would still find something to complain about.
Its human nature when your miserable and you see other people having fun you just have to moan your ass off.
The council needs to grow some balls and tell the pricks to fuck off!

[cs363]

With attitudes like this, eventually the 'pricks' will have their way. If you don't believe that noise issues are real you are paddling a one-man canoe up a big river in Egypt....

[Reckless]

Yep, I agree, they could be dead silent and people would still find something to complain about.
Its human nature when your miserable and you see other people having fun you just have to moan your ass off.
The council needs to grow some balls and tell the pricks to fuck off!

Oh i wish it happened that way but this is a council we are dealing with!

But firstly! These people are reading and probably printing everything on here so for goodness sake cut the swearing and the crap because they could put these forward as evidence to the character of the people that participate at Ardmore even if they are out of context and you don't ride there. They have done that already from Johns email.
Secondly John should have got a noise meter a long time ago and metered everyone as they entered the track there are still some quite loud 4 smokers out there. So the chickens maybe coming home to roost.
OK back to the council and the resource consent process. Well Helen and the greenies have got the tail wagging the dog and given these people real power. And pretty much all the council are concerned with are creating a paper trail so they can prove they have done due process. They really don't care whats right or wrong or who wins they just don't want to be in the shit for their decision later. And which ever way it goes they probably will be hated by someone. The ones they want to keep happy will be their rate payers even if its just a few stirring up the rest. Trouble is the resource consent process gives real power the the one or two that like to object to everything that happens anywhere. So the best way to win this is to factually show them as radicals and to show the track forms a community service that is indispensable to Papakura.
Unfortunatly this is harder to prove than mud in the creek and Thumper noise that you can probably hear from their balconies even if its not offensive.
Shit I hope that John Cobb's got his act together I better make more effort and turn up at least to show my presence for the next meeting!

[noobi]

hasnt the track been there alot longer than the people complaining??
why dont these people realise that if you buy a house with a motox track anywhere near it that people with motox bikes are going to congregate there and enjoy motox as a sport??
i can understand if long time land owners are complaining about the noise but i doubt that they are
also no one complains about the noise from rugby games ( ok not the best comparison ill admit ) but if motox was a more recognised sport (like rugby)and regular people like our lovely complainents understood that its what we love:love: and what we are passionate about then maybe they wouldnt be so quick to put there hands up and say those things about these reckless lunatics riding unmuffled, dangerous, polluting, native tree destroying and somehow devil supporting anti christ crotch rockets????:shutup: :wacko:
its just a sport, we love:love: it and we do it for enjoyment
not to try and annoy people:2guns:
but unfortunately some people are just too one eyed about these things and just believe there right and everyone else is wrong and should just piss off
i just think that everyone should TRY to see the big picture and TRY to see it from our (motox loving community) point of view :innocent::innocent::innocent::innocent::innocent:

[scott411]

yes ardmore has been there for a long time, and Ardmore Quarry rd has a lot more residents John has run it very well for a lot of years, i wish him all the best, i need as many tracks open as possible

[theblacksmith]

How many kids use Ardmore? Where would the council like to see them spend their time - tagging walls in Papakura and Drury or actively engaged in a very popular sport with their parents and friends.There are many positives you can put across to the panel but noise has to be reduced.

[DEATH_INC.]

How many kids use Ardmore? Where would the council like to see them spend their time - tagging walls in Papakura and Drury or actively engaged in a very popular sport with their parents and friends.There are many positives you can put across to the panel but noise has to be reduced.
Good point. Me 'n Draco were discussing this this morning. Get a few of 'em to the meeting, kids will be a great ally. Get them to ask the whingers why they are shutting their playground.
Have you checked into the council planning (or resource consents etc)? Often this stuff is motivated by developers....
Noise is an issue yes, but some people are very unreasonable about it. Sometimes you cannot satisfy people.

[DEATH_INC.]

yes ardmore has been there for a long time,
I think we all know that after western springs, the argument that we were here first doesn't work unfortunately...

[scott411]

yeah fair call,

[telliman]

Oh i wish it happened that way but this is a council we are dealing with!

But firstly! These people are reading and probably printing everything on here so for goodness sake cut the swearing and the crap because they could put these forward as evidence to the character of the people that participate at Ardmore even if they are out of context and you don't ride there. They have done that already from Johns email.
Secondly John should have got a noise meter a long time ago and metered everyone as they entered the track there are still some quite loud 4 smokers out there. So the chickens maybe coming home to roost.
OK back to the council and the resource consent process. Well Helen and the greenies have got the tail wagging the dog and given these people real power. And pretty much all the council are concerned with are creating a paper trail so they can prove they have done due process. They really don't care whats right or wrong or who wins they just don't want to be in the shit for their decision later. And which ever way it goes they probably will be hated by someone. The ones they want to keep happy will be their rate payers even if its just a few stirring up the rest. Trouble is the resource consent process gives real power the the one or two that like to object to everything that happens anywhere. So the best way to win this is to factually show them as radicals and to show the track forms a community service that is indispensable to Papakura.
Unfortunatly this is harder to prove than mud in the creek and Thumper noise that you can probably hear from their balconies even if its not offensive.
Shit I hope that John Cobb's got his act together I better make more effort and turn up at least to show my presence for the next meeting!

shut up and ride man!!!

[dammad1]

Noise is an issue yes, but some people are very unreasonable about it. Sometimes you cannot satisfy people.

Absouletly, some bikes may be a bit loud but rectifying this will not stop the complaints they will just find something else to complain about, these are the same people that after moving out to a rural communities start complaining about the next door neighbours roosters crowing and cows pooing.

I'm not condoning noisy bikes but people have to see the big picture this is just more PC crap and unfortunately I think this is a losing battle that we are going to see more and more often.

[cs363]

I don't doubt that most of the residents are complaining for reasons other than those publicly stated, but you need to play the game - take away the things they are complaining about, appear to be compliant with the council/ratepayers wishes and it will take a considerable amount of wind out of their sails. I think the 'fair and reasonable' approach is what works best in these situations, rolling over and saying that they are just complaining for the sake of it and not doing anything about what are obvious problems is just feeding their cause.
As population density increases issues like this will become more and more relevant, the motorcycling community needs to be seen to active in addressing the publics complaints if we don't want to lose valuable riding areas. The unfortunate thing is that it is almost inevitable that riding areas close to large centres are doomed in the long term due to pressures caused by increasing amounts of people wanting to live in the area, regardless of any other issues.
You only have to think back to Bay park or Western Springs to realise this.
But what do we do, ignore the issues and keep moving further away until there is nowhere left or address the issues now and try to all get along?

[camchain]

It seems to me the situation with Ardmore now requires immediate and serious effort. The existance of currently available methods of reducing noise doesn't appear to be solving the problem fast enough. The choice looks like lose some noise and some performance or lose Ardmore. What is the least 'restrictive' option?

What I've suggested is a principle of a muffler addition in the simplest and easiest to impliment form I could think of to start the ball rolling, and there are other possibilities. The number 8 fencing wire angle shouldn't be underestimated.

There are also plenty of examples around of really tiny exit holes on motorcycle exhausts. The baffle plate in that drawing could have any number of holes of any particlar size to ensure the engine still runs well.

I disagree that adding a baffle plate would automatically cause overheating. With most exhausts still being of 'straight through' design, they can stand a fair bit of baffling without causing any real problems. disrupting and breaking up the energy pulse of the exiting sound wave even by a even a fairly small amount could be useful. Especially where many bikes are being run at all at once in the same small area.

Using the same principle and with a couple more stacked baffle plates (with holes offset/not aligned between plates) you'd get better flow while maintaining a good sound wave disruption effect. I always liked the idea of adjustability of the old Super Trapp design (stacked discs) that some of you will remember. The ultimate muffler for these days might have an externally adjustable internal vane/s for running in stealth mode. Certainly do-able if expensive to manufacture.

Surprised to hear the club doesn't have a Db meter available at the track. Does anyone know how much they cost?

I think pushing the angle of healthy sport for kids is one to really emphasise at these hearings.

[scott411]

although i agree with your general line of thinking, the design will cause problems, also not all mufflers have the removeable plate like your diagram shows, that much back pressure and restriction will cause problems, put one into your bike, start it at night, and watch how quick the header will glow red. the reason supertrapp type system are not that popular now is that better designs have been made, and the supertrapp system does not work at the RPM that the fourstrokes pull.

we need to get quieter, all places that we ride have to start enforcing noise limits, but it comes down to numbers of organisers, if you have ever been to ardmore you shoudl have noticed that John is almost a one man band, if he starts noise testing bikes who does the rest of the stuff, i do not have the answer,
one of the problems is the way we test as well, we do a the FIM static test in the pits, that is time consuming, and easy to beat if you know how, we need to do a flyby test, and start black flagging guys that fail, unfortuanly Motorcycle riders are not used to be told no, and the first guy that you black flag will complain that everyone else is just as loud, and normally get abusive, unfortuanlty i do not have a magic answer, it will not be a 5 minute fix, but the first thing we need to do is educate. Do you know you get a performance gain from packing your muffler, i have the dyno charts to prove it.

[B0000M]

ban four strokes? :devil2:

but seriously, if we are seen to make an effort to reduce noise, that will help out cause, worldwide.

[cs363]

ban four strokes? :devil2:

but seriously, if we are seen to make an effort to reduce noise, that will help out cause, worldwide.


Ah...the voice of reason! Well at least on the second bit... :)

[Danger]

ban four strokes? :devil2:

but seriously, if we are seen to make an effort to reduce noise, that will help out cause, worldwide.

Give that man a cigar! The four stroke has really endangered the life of our sport. Heck even at the Sandpit the last few rides and there was a CRF250 roaring around the MX track and the noise we could hear from the carpark was way over the top. I caught this rider out on the trails and followed him for awhile and when we stopped I was surprised that it was not a 450 due to the amount of noise it pumped out. When I mentioned the fact that it was real loud the rider was boasting to me how it was all tricked out blah blah blah and was quite proud of the fact, even though I had caught him on my little quiet 200!:argh:
Then we stopped down at the old carpark area for a rest and could hear these two four strokes approaching from a distance (the trees really don't block any noise) and two young fellas show up and decide to start showing off to us in the old carpark and the noise was so obnoxious to us (two 2 stroke riders and another quiet four stroke) that we had to get out of there.
If we find it annoying, imagine what it is like to people that don't love bikes like us.
Four stroke riders really need to grow a brain and save our sport!

[Reckless]

I couldn't agree more Danger!!
They went out of two strokes for pollution reasons we are told YE! right! TUI!!
What about the noise polution that is causing all these problems. The promotion of 4 strokes by the manufacturers is for money and money alone. Four strokes (as I have stated B4) produce a much larger revenue stream for the manufacturers (in parts etc) and their shops (an valve jobs and labour) than 2 strokes. You can do anything with a 2smoker. Correct pipe, weighted fly wheel, power valve & timing settings etc etc. KTM have proved that. They just don't choose to because it doesn't make them so much money!!!!!

As stated on here by another KB'er that lives in the area at Ardmore. Its the boooom of the 4 stroke he can hear from his house not the reeving of the 2smoker.

I spent 2 hours in the saddle (According to the hour meter) at the Sandpit on Sunday and KTM boy will have to start looking at the noise out there as well I reckon. Nice sunny day, and saw my first deer out there!

[Husky125]

The problem with this hearing is that the people complaining can just make stuff up about whats happening and we have to prove that its not. This makes it almost impossible for John to win. Does this mean that we can complain about the noise the motorway makes if we live within a km of it and get it shut down. Or even the roads around us.

[camchain]

Back to the drawing board I guess. I suppose it stung a bit to have a suggestion kicked into touch given the current situation. My starting point was to try and come up with something quickly that really wasn't a design at all. It'd be laugh trying to patent a plate with some holes drilled in it though! I think the concept of muffler inserts is sound. It's just a matter of execution. I'd read a DB dawg test (KXF450) where dyno showed only about 1 1/2 horsepower loss at max rpm. I like the cone inserts idea in the '08 YZF450.

Sometimes 'quick and dirty' can work very well. I seem to remember the old days of scrutineering where for a while, handlebar ends had to be blocked off with a coin (In case of collecting a bar end on a body part)

Might be worthwhile to quietly start another thread on noise. It's a complicated and important subject. I have a couple of other thoughts about muffler tweaks/add-ons that I'm going to play around with anyway. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I realise that others could be reading these posts and I don't want to make a possible rod for our own backs but we need to be seen to be actively working towards improving things.

Ultimately the noise issue solution will include a range of different measures. Db testing is certainly not a straightforward thing to implement, there are a lot of angles to it. Please don't think I was running down John Cobb in any way. I have nothing but respect for folks who are willing to put time in like this.
Your hunch was right Scott, I've never been to Ardmore but I'd like to have the opportunity to. With fuel prices being the way they are, riding areas close to town are a real asset. It would just be a huge disappointment if Ardmore were to close.

That's interesting Re muffler repack being good for performance. I can well believe it. When I was at school I tried a few things out with making my own muffler to replace the boat anchor on the XL (No flames please - I was 15 and world was a different place back then). The bike definitely ran better with the right pipe length and finding optimum amount of back pressure.

I was surprised and interested to see these power bomb headers when they came out. You would think that every different possibility would have been tried with exhausts. More possibilities are out there, we just have to look for them.

The four stroke sound wave clearly has a very different profile and frequency to a 2 stroke yet there is still basically the same sort of bang going on in the combustion chamber, only half the amount of bangs. On paper 4 strokes should be half as quiet! It must be possible to modify the shape of that sound wave in a way that's not being done by current exhausts.

Fingers crossed for some better news on these hearings.

[Wellyman]

I havent seen someone come on this site ( VERY VERY much so the dirt area) about how loud their exhaust is. THEY ARE MAKING UP A BUNCH OF FUCKEN BULLSHIT, U WORTHLESS FUCKEN NATZIS!
Keep Ardmore open, so we can have a hobbie, while you can go fucken walk the dog and sip flat whites as your hobbie, we want a past time too.
Cheers,
WM

[cs363]

See you at the Ardmore closing party.....

[oldguy]

They just don't want bikes there, and that's final, so no matter what we do, they want them gone, its the sign of the times, hell they don't even like road bikes. I love riding that bit of road it gets nice and twisty up past the track. When I feel like taking the long way home from work I come down through there, I have heard the locals have been complaining.

[Buddy L]

Just got this email ----

WE GOT HAMMERED


We had the first day of the resource consent hearings for the track yesterday, and the residents gave us both barrels.

One of the residents started off quoting riders comments from the Kiwi biker website bragging about how loud the bikes are

THANKS

BORIS

Remember guys we're not realy helping John here by flapping our lips. Think alittle before you type.

[cs363]

Remember guys we're not realy helping John here by flapping our lips. Think alittle before you type.

Very politely put! :)

I assume the meeting was this Monday (today)? So does anyone have an update on proceedings?

[B0000M]

actually i dont recall anyone bragging about how loud anyones bike was, id be interested if anyone could quote it or link to the post, and i read every post in the offroad forum.

[Reckless]

As stated on here by another KB'er that lives in the area at Ardmore. Its the boooom of the 4 stroke he can hear from his house not the reeving of the 2smoker.

Hopefully you guys are not referring to this comment I made. If you are it does not say anyone was bragging about their bike at all. If you read it, it states that he could hear the 4 strokes from his house but not the 2 strokes. He stated as a rider it wasn't very loud and didn't offend him at all.
I distinctly remember the post and if I get time I'll try and sift through all the likely threads.

Here you go he was referring to what his mate who lives in the area had reported to him.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1108828&postcount=56

Hopefully this will clear the confusion if that's what you guys are getting wound up about! Jeepers guys! To much passion and to much swearing & slagging people off, you aren't doing anyone any good!

I must say if it doesn't go well I do feel sorry for all those families that go out there. A lot of the kids are able to practice after school on a Wednesday for competition on every 2nd Sunday. There's quite a few father son teams pitting out there. And I would say if Ardmore closes there will be a lot of kids missing out. The bond I formed with my son karting for all those years, is just unexplainable. The time with him, the challenge, the ups and down, the tears and highs. It has made him what he is today! It will be the same for MX, if these selfish people only new what they are robbing from these kids!!!!!

[theblacksmith]

We'll develop some nuclear bikes - they should be quiet and fast as.
Just joking!!

[B0000M]

i was referring to this


One of the residents started off quoting riders comments from the Kiwi biker website bragging about how loud the bikes are

and i totally back what reckless is saying. ive been thru juniors, and granted didnt live in auckland at the time, but without the local practise tracks it wouldnt've got where i got with the sport and i wouldn't have had heaps of cool times with my dad either.

[NordieBoy]

although i agree with your general line of thinking, the design will cause problems, also not all mufflers have the removeable plate like your diagram shows, that much back pressure and restriction will cause problems, put one into your bike, start it at night, and watch how quick the header will glow red. the reason supertrapp type system are not that popular now is that better designs have been made, and the supertrapp system does not work at the RPM that the fourstrokes pull.

Extra backpressure in general = more restriction = richer.
Glowing headers in general = leaner.

On a SuperTrapp the standard style packing is there for higher freq sound and the discs for lower freq sound.

SuperTrapp needs to drop the current IDS2 range and go with an IDS3 that has a larger diameter with more packing and still keep the discs to tune for application.

[Pierce]

any updates?

[Reckless]

Ah ha B000M that clears that up for me. I to cannot remember any posts of KB members boasting about how loud there bikes are out at Ardmore!



any updates?

I'm on John Cobbs email list because I'm a member out there and I haven't got anything through yet since the Sat email that was posted here.
I just called someone who was there at the meetings on Monday and the final decision won't come out for another 2 weeks or so. But he thought Monday went better for Ardmore than what John reported Friday went. So the juries out at the moment and until John Cobb puts his present feelings forward via email, we won't know. He may of coarse not venture a public opinion until after the council have done their thing. So its time for patience. Whats done is done! and we don't want to effect any decisions that may come out by stupid rantings on here that may or may not be monitored by the people making those judgments.

So get your shit together KB'ers the time for a rant is after we hear what the decision is!!!!!!!!!

I might go out for a practice tomorrow if its open and weathers fine.

[camchain]

RE Nordieboy - on Back pressure and Super Trapp

Sorry, really should start another thread for this stuff . When restricting exhaust problem is not just mixture, you have to get rid of the heat as well. Problem is restriction at small surface area really inhibits flow. My Pro Circuit has a spark arrestor that has a very fine mesh that's pretty restricive as well though.

Couple of times I've needed to check bike still runs (after carb out or similar job) before next days ride. In order not to annoy the neighbours I wrapped a 'T' shirt around muffler end (whisper quiet) but never ran it for more than a few seconds so avoided any probs. I reckon you might see a red hot header running it like that fairly quickly!

Yeah Nordie, the Super Trapp had quite a different higher frequency tone as well. I figured it was an outdated design, I didn't realise they still made them. That high adjustabilty factor could be really useful these days. I wish I had a better idea on how far you could push the silencing on an engine set up for a freer flowing exhaust. On newer EFI bikes, with maybe a dual mapping and an adjustable exhaust it might be possible to have an 'Ardmore mode' for certain ride areas. I have the feeling that even aiming well below 96 Db it might not be enough to save Ardmore though.

RE the 'boasting about noisy bikes' comments. I did a quick search of Off Road threads. There are a few comments that are a bit, lets say 'edgy' and wouldn't be ideal to have at these hearings, but those who made them had no idea where they ended up (I hope those councillers understand the concept of context), and those posts were heavily outnumbered by really positive stuff and far more accurately represents riders as a group. Here's one thread I looked at for example:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=71601&highlight=noise+loud


Quote Reckless: So get your shit together KB'ers the time for a rant is after we hear what the decision is!!!!!!!!!

Good call there Reckless. The walls have ears. Fingers crossed for a good result.

[NordieBoy]

I wish I had a better idea on how far you could push the silencing on an engine set up for a freer flowing exhaust. On newer EFI bikes, with maybe a dual mapping and an adjustable exhaust it might be possible to have an 'Ardmore mode' for certain ride areas. I have the feeling that even aiming well below 96 Db it might not be enough to save Ardmore though.

There is/was a guy in Engerland who went to a lot of trouble to make a mechanically baffelled pipe for his Berg 650 motard - Very good read if you can find it...

[cs363]

My Pro Circuit has a spark arrestor that has a very fine mesh that's pretty restricive as well though.

FYI: Those wire mesh spark arrestors make an average of 1db difference (quieter) and cost 1-2hp on most mid size bikes. Exhaust packing as Scott stated earlier will make way more difference one way or the other, whether its not enough packing, too much, wrong type or wet etc. You'd be surprised the difference in performance between different types of packing too.

[noobi]

when we went to repack my dads 350kitted ktm exc 4stroke
we bought the proper packing
pulled the muffler to part
and found that it was empty, had no packing
so we put the new packing in and it didnt make any difference to how loud the bike was and it still backfires sometimes, thats why we repacked(or to be fair packed)it in the first place
but maybe only motox 4stroke ktms, cuz the muffler internals on the sx and exc is different, the sx is straight thru
and the exc changes direction a few times

[cs363]

when we went to repack my dads 350kitted ktm exc 4stroke
we bought the proper packing
pulled the muffler to part
and found that it was empty, had no packing
so we put the new packing in and it didnt make any difference to how loud the bike was and it still backfires sometimes, thats why we repacked(or to be fair packed)it in the first place
but maybe only motox 4stroke ktms, cuz the muffler internals on the sx and exc is different, the sx is straight thru
and the exc changes direction a few times

I don't want to start an argument, but that is physically impossible.
Read this:

There are three ways to muffle the sound coming from the combustion chamber: restriction, reflection and absorption. Restriction means just that: The flow of exhaust gas is restricted. This method definitely makes for a quieter exhaust note, but it also chokes off any decent power the engine is trying to make.

Reflective technology involves splitting the flow path of the exhaust gases within the muffler and using wave-cancellation techniques to create a pressure drop within the muffler. That reduces sound pressure and, therefore, the noise level at the muffler’s exit. If you look at a cutaway of a reflective-type muffler, you’ll find a series of baffles and reflectors. That’s the maze the exhaust winds around to set up the wave reflection.

Absorption techniques have traditionally been typified by the “glasspack” straight-through mufflers. That type of muffler is basically a straight tube inside another tube. The inner tube is perforated with louvers, and between the tubes is a packing material, usually fiberglass. As the exhaust goes through the muffler, the packing material absorbs some of the sound.

As you can see from the above, by repacking the muffler you WILL have reduced the sound level - even if you repacked it with Mum's tea towel!
Nearly all popular late model (bar a few 2008/2009 models) use the absorption method of sound reduction, sometimes augmented with a small baffle/reflector section.
You may be confusing exhaust tone with sound level, the bike will still have a characteristic 4stroke 'bark' but the sound level (db rating) will have been reduced.

Now the question is, were you supplied the correct packing or were you just told it was the correct packing? I believe that KTM use Silent Sport packing (http://www.areapnolimits.com/silentsport.html) though I won't swear to it, however I'm 99% sure they use a similar product, did it look like this?
Just because someone in a bike shop has sold you packing and 'told' you its correct doesn't neccessarily make it so.

Exhaust packing will not affect backfiring, that is caused by either a fueling or ignition issue (usually ignition timing or lean mixture).
An incorrectly tuned four stroke engine can effect the noise output too believe it or not.

Unfortunately the human ear is not a reliable sound level meter, if you want to really know the difference you'll need to get it tested.

[noobi]

thats exactly what we both said
well we asked for the packing for a ktm 250exc muffler from triple x motosports on east tamaki and thats what we thought we got
if packing the muffler should make it quieter then a muffler with no packing would be really loud and packing it would make it at least quieter to notice with my ear(16yrs) even if dad didnt but we both thought it was the same and maybe it was 1 Db lower but packing over no packing should be at least a little notieably quieter
and yes we did put the muffler back together as per the manual
that probably being the next question

[cs363]

thats exactly what we both said
well we asked for the packing for a ktm 250exc muffler from triple x motosports on east tamaki and thats what we thought we got
if packing the muffler should make it quieter then a muffler with no packing would be really loud and packing it would make it at least quieter to notice with my ear(16yrs) even if dad didnt but we both thought it was the same and maybe it was 1 Db lower but packing over no packing should be at least a little notieably quieter
and yes we did put the muffler back together as per the manual
that probably being the next question


Hmm...something isn't right there. Either you have just got cheap two stroke style packing (does it look like pink batts material (only probably not pink)?) if so, you probably blew half the packing out the first time you started it and gave it a rev. That style packing cannot cope with 4 strokes. Does it look like the Silent Sport material (long strands of stringy white stuff?) if so, did you use enough? KTM's usually have quite large silencers that take more than the average Japanes bike silencers. Has the silencer been cut down or modified?
The other mistake that many people make is the opposite of underpacking - overpacking by ramming the material so hard down into the silencer body that it loses its sound absorbing qualities and effectively becomes a solid mass, thereby creating a strait-through silencer.

[noobi]

it looked like a pillow, and there were two seperate pieces for the two chambers of the muffler, and it was pretty hard to get it to fit like we has to ram it in, so maybe we got shafted??
not knowing, its not really loud so not really a problem
but just dissapointing

[cs363]

it looked like a pillow, and there were two seperate pieces for the two chambers of the muffler, and it was pretty hard to get it to fit like we has to ram it in, so maybe we got shafted??
not knowing, its not really loud so not really a problem
but just dissapointing

Well for what its worth, that does sound like the genuine item. Those are pre-prepared pillow packs that have the packing material inside them, mainly its just to make it easier to fit and avoid some of the pitfalls outlined above.
You shouldn't have had to 'ram' it in though they do require feeding in slowly and poking all the overlapping edges inside.
As long as when you finished the material was just poking out the end of the silencer so that it was snug to the end cap when bolted up you should be sweet.
The only other thing I can suggest is carefully checking you whole exhaust sytem for cracks or holes. Look carefull as hairline cracks can be almsot invisible when cold/engine off, but open up under operation.

[Husky125]

maybe they should have read out what where saying here if we had said this sooner to at least show that were making an effort to sort out the noise problem but from what johns said to me the noise testing that was done at the complainants boundarys was well within acceptable levels. At some you couldn't even hear the bikes and this was on a race day. All we can do is hope that the evidence that we had was better at depicting what was really happening.

[FROSTY]

Guys Im sorry reading this is just like reading about western springs speedway.
The same arguments from the drivers/riders--ohh ittll affect performance--ohh it isn't me etc etc.
Meanwhile they played right into the hands of the eco nazi's

Sorry to be blunt --but please pull ya heads outa yer asses.
If EVERYONE plays ball with the DBA levels then everybody has the same performance issue to work around.

DON'T let the bastards have an excuse to get ya's

[telliman]

so wth my new 250f im running a ti4 exhaust system,does this put me in the loud bike catagory? do i need to change?

[NordieBoy]

so wth my new 250f im running a ti4 exhaust system,does this put me in the loud bike catagory? do i need to change?

Depends.
Is it loud?

[telliman]

Depends.
Is it loud?

arnt they all??

[cs363]

so wth my new 250f im running a ti4 exhaust system,does this put me in the loud bike catagory? do i need to change?


If it has the longer cone shaped end cap and is properly packed (and has the spark arrestor installed) it is probably running around 97db.
There are new inserts available to further reduce the noise output now available from Pro Circuit, these will drop it to well under 96db which is now the legal requirement for MNZ events and is equal to or less than most stock exhausts.
Give MR Motorcycles a call they should be able to get one for you :)

(it's hard to be specific as there are also different length cans on those pipes as well - a lot depends on when it was manufactured as to what the noise output was, as the whole noise thing has been fluid in the last few years, all the new (08-09) pipes have the new insert/end cap. If you had one of the older pipes that had the stubby end cap and a short can these can be as loud as 102db)

[Reckless]

so wth my new 250f im running a ti4 exhaust system,does this put me in the loud bike catagory? do i need to change?

The talk is that even std exhausts are a bit loud for Ardmore ( and everywhere actually) and if Ardmore is allowed to continue there may have to be something done with some sort of insert. I had a discussion about the new CRF450 and the decrease in inner tube exhaust diameter on the latest model that has made it significantly quieter vs the older models. So it looks like manufacturers are tackling this issue. I was told there was some comments made about a perceived reduction in power. But even if we have to fit some sort of restrictor insert specially for Ardmore its the same restriction for everyone. And lets not kid ourselves who the heck gets to the end of their throttle stop in every gear at bloody Ardmore on a 450. Nobody anywhere I would pick. Shit even on a 250 four stroke you wouldn't tap it out at Ardmore would ya!!! I'd rather fit an insert than close the track thats for sure!

So Telliman the answer is it probably will be loud for Ardmore, especially if they put a DB level on the decision, but I think we just have to wait and see what they come up with. Its Looking like all the owners of pre 09 4stroke bikes are going to have to tackle their DB levels if they want to go anywhere. Hehe that'll teach you to go 4 stroke!!! HEHE looks like they'll be going "putt putt putt" in the future while real bikes will be going RING A TING TING!!!!!!
Whats it like to ride compared to your KX250, power? handling?

[NordieBoy]

arnt they all??

Not compared to a YZF passing you on a cross-country that's blown it's end-cap and packing somewhere on the course :oi-grr:

Scares the shit outa ya.

[clmintie]

RING A TING TING!!!!!! Bling.....

[B0000M]

im going to laugh the day everyone finally realises 4 strokes are shit and go back to 2 smokers. they are allready lighter, quieter, more powerful, cheaper to buy , cheaper to maintain, easier to work on, lower maintenance, more fun power to ride, shit what more do people want in a bike?

[Ktmboy]

RING A TING TING!!!... Lol
I think this means the same as " Check the Donkey"

[NordieBoy]

im going to laugh the day everyone finally realises 4 strokes are shit and go back to 2 smokers. they are allready lighter, quieter, more powerful, cheaper to buy , cheaper to maintain, easier to work on, lower maintenance, more fun power to ride, shit what more do people want in a bike?

More torque?

[Reckless]

More torque?

HAHa Nordie us 2smokers are sick of all the "talk". We know whats better on the wallet and the ears!!!! of to bed "ring a ting ting"!!!!!!!!!! night all!

[BIHB@0610]

PM me if you want any help. I know a bit about the RMA, especially the process from here on in.

[B0000M]

More torque?

another one who needs to ride a modern 2 smoker i guess.

the modern 2stroke DOESNT have a dyno graph that would resemble this diagram im going to draw with dashes and slashes ________/

[Reckless]

PM me if you want any help. I know a bit about the RMA, especially the process from here on in.


All done and dusted now Planna last meeting was last Monday. Thanx for the offer though!

[NordieBoy]

another one who needs to ride a modern 2 smoker i guess.

the modern 2stroke DOESNT have a dyno graph that would resemble this diagram im going to draw with dashes and slashes ________/

Untill a few weeks ago the only 2 strokes I'd ridden were modern ones apart from a 1974 TS400 which had good grunt down low and a PE175 that did have a torque graph like you drew.

[B0000M]

Untill a few weeks ago the only 2 strokes I'd ridden were modern ones apart from a 1974 TS400 which had good grunt down low and a PE175 that did have a torque graph like you drew.

yeah a lot of 2 stroker baggers seem to think all 2 strokes are liek the PE you refer to or "just like the 80 i rode 10 years ago"

regardless, this thread is about noise, and how we are going to make a difference in making it lower. i dont know anything about mufflers but there must be a way of making them quiet witout being too restrictive, those four stroke factory mufflers are physically quite large so theres a fair amount of room to play with.

http://www.walkerexhaust.com/images/support/exhaust101/exh101_mufflerConstruction.gif
(http://www.walkerexhaust.com/images/support/exhaust101/exh101_mufflerConstruction.gif)

theres some car exaust, could something similar be implemented?

[Danger]

Perhaps purchase a luxury exhaust of that guy off Trade Me?:blink:

[cs363]

Perhaps purchase a luxury exhaust of that guy off Trade Me?:blink:

Nooo - for Ardmore you will need the 'Super Luxury Exhaust'!!! :lol:

[camchain]

Some good discussion going on, mixed with a bit of humour. Those last two genuinely had me 'Laughing Out Loud.' I needed that. Visit to KB becoming a favourite work break of the day. Cheers.

RE Frosty Quote: "Guys Im sorry reading this is just like reading about western springs speedway."

Was thinking along these lines as well Frosty. I guess we might be discussing what tune the band should play next while our feet get wet but it's probably a good idea to make a grab for anything that might float as well. Hopefully there will be some good news on this RMA thing, or a lot more kids will be spending a lot more time on Play Station and X box instead of the real thing.
Our noise 'iceberg' isn't going to go away but at least we're breaking out the binoculars and looking in the right direction.

[mattwood]

just spent an hour or so reading this whole thread.. really disappointing to hear that someone else is trying to ruin this great sprot! I've never been down to ardmore but really would love to have the opportunity one day!

Hope it all works out great for you! With the rising petrol prices the sport its becoming more expensive, especially if you have to keep traveling further and further away to practice and race.

I'd love to get my bike noise tested, just really want to make sure that im doing my bit for the sport by keeping my bike quiet. I ride in a few paddocks that have people living on the other side of the fence. I just went around and talked to all of the people whop lived there, they were all happy to talk and we worked out hours that I could ride with out pissing anyone else off.

I'm only 15 and love every minute that I spend riding my bike, and being at rides with my dad and other mates who ride. Riding has encouraged, (well forced) me to get a job to pay for the maintanence and petrol, which in away I suppose has made me more resposible. If I wasnt/ didnt have a place to ride my bike I guess me and my friends would find alternative ways to have fun.. which in my case wouldnt lead to tagging or anything like that, but for some kids it might..

Any way, wish everyone the best of luck in sorting this out.. if I can help with like.. a statement from a kid who rides motorbikes or anything like that. Just ask.

[telliman]

Whats it like to ride compared to your KX250, power? handling?[/QUOTE]

dunno havnt riden it yet!
keeping the kx for a bit of fun!

i rode one of broxys bikes at his track for half a day and was loving it,
love my 2 stroke but figured theres a reaason why everyones racing them, and it aint cause there slow.

[camchain]

RE Quote Mattwood: "I just went around and talked to all of the people who lived there, they were all happy to talk and we worked out hours that I could ride with out pissing anyone else off."

Good to see this thread has produced some tangible results already. I'm impressed with what you did there young motorcyclist. You deserve a pat on the back, well done. Didn't take long to do and no doubt your neighbours were also impressed at your showing them some consideration. Hard for people to be angry at you. You're not some anonymous 'annoying-ratbag-noise-maker-who-doesn't-give-a-stuff-about-anyone-else' noise in the distance to them any more and they won't have too much of their attention focused on it at least (hopefully).

[cheese]

I'm just happy I've made a 6 page thread.... LOL

[mattwood]

RE Quote Mattwood: "I just went around and talked to all of the people who lived there, they were all happy to talk and we worked out hours that I could ride with out pissing anyone else off."

Good to see this thread has produced some tangible results already. I'm impressed with what you did there young motorcyclist. You deserve a pat on the back, well done. Didn't take long to do and no doubt your neighbours were also impressed at your showing them some consideration. Hard for people to be angry at you. You're not some anonymous 'annoying-ratbag-noise-maker-who-doesn't-give-a-stuff-about-anyone-else' noise in the distance to them any more and they won't have too much of their attention focused on it at least (hopefully).

Thanks Camchain, yeah i managed to please everyone except for the old man who lives nextdoor, hes complaining that I make to much dust.. when everyother day hes lighting huge ass fires that fill our house up with smoke :laugh: I guess you can never please everyone.

I think there should have been some sort of contract set up along time ago, that said something along the lines of anyone building or buying houses within a few KM of ardmore pretty much just have to deal with it. I suppose its way to late for that now though...:no:

Perhaps offer all of the people who are complaining a chance to ride at admore for free, so that they can experience motorcross, it might change their mind haha

[Reckless]

Been meaning to post for a week now!!

Was out at Ardmore last Wednesday (saw gtae and Teliman). Ardmore has had the resource consent approved in their favor. John didn't know what provisions would be put on as part of it but he doesn't have to close! The neighbours can still take him the the environment court but we shall have to wait and see!

YAHOOO!!! Now I can still ride 20mins from home rather than a bloody 2 hour plus round trip! And its a really good $10 bucks entry for Wednesday practice if your a member!

That is a shit hot result!!!
Bless John Cobb for stickig to his guns & fighting this through for the sake of us all!!!

[Teava]

That is awesome news!!! Well done to all involved:niceone:

[cheese]

might have to come out for a wed ride sometime soon.

[Atomic]

What time does ardmore run from and till on a wednesday practice? is it open practice all afternoon or does practice run the various classes?

[Reckless]

Generally open practice from about 2pm till 5:30/dark in winter. 4ish till 8 in summer I think. Check the raceline after lunch in this weather though 268-0886.

[theblacksmith]

Been meaning to post for a week now!!

Was out at Ardmore last Wednesday (saw gtae and Teliman). Ardmore has had the resource consent approved in their favor. John didn't know what provisions would be put on as part of it but he doesn't have to close! The neighbours can still take him the the environment court but we shall have to wait and see!

YAHOOO!!! Now I can still ride 20mins from home rather than a bloody 2 hour plus round trip! And its a really good $10 bucks entry for Wednesday practice if your a member!

That is a shit hot result!!!
Bless John Cobb for stickig to his guns & fighting this through for the sake of us all!!!

Cool to hear that!

[Pierce]

Man this is the best news i've heard in a while. Love riding ardmore and it was a bit upsetting knowing that yet another great track was up for being closed down. Just a reminder of how we need to keep our bikes at a reasonable level isn't it!

See you guys there soon! (tonight if I can get a car with a towbar haha)

[scott411]

i have heard there are some restrictions that might cause issues, but it is good to hear that justice has been done.

the adjudcatiors actually went up to ardmore on a practice day and to the neighbouring properties, to hear fro themselves what the effects were,

great news all in all, we do not need more riding area's closed down.

[Pierce]

Just called RACELINE and it's open tonight. Still under the environment court order as it takes 15 days (if the neighbours want to appeal it)

As Scott said, all in all a great result. Start repacking those mufflers people :wink:

[camchain]

That's great news. Was expecting to hear the worst. Well done to all involved who put in the effort at hearings etc to make this happen.
Be interesting to know how close the call was.

[xen]

Yeah good shit.. will like to check out ardmore soon, awesome.

[clmintie]

When I was lying in hospital one of the things that kept my spirits up was the hope of retuning to Ardy on Wednesday evenings... VERY cool news.... I'll run two mufflers if it helps..

[tommorth]

good to here the winging bastards havent killed it off will have to come have a play when i've fixed my bike

really what sort of tosser moves next to a mx track or airfield and then complains about the noise would you move next to a motorway then complain about that . maybe ask for it to be closed at night and weekends ??