Time to arm our guards

[davereid]

I watched the news tonight. A security guard responded to a call for help from a small retailer. The rat-bags said, we will be back with a gun. The police, as usual were busy at a check-point, and declined to attend.

1. The police want to be armed. Why ? They never show up. The private security guard is always first on site.

2. Give guards lights, sirens and the ability to speed. If a home invasion, or a burglary needs a speedy response, why can't private guards provide the service ? In this area police are firm - they DONT go to householders burglar alarms. Yet they will go at 100mph to a burglar alarm in a policemans house !

It seems to me, that police are useless, and terrified of competition. They make the rules based on who you work for. Not how good you are.

If a burglary is worth speeding for, a private secuity guard should be able to speed. If its not worth speeding for, no one should be able to speed.

Police will say.. training, competence.. ability..

Easily solved. Make the test external. Let policemen, and private guards sit the same test. If you pass you can speed to certain events. If you fail.. well you can't.

Even better. Establish a "police funding authority".

You have been burgled. Ring the police. They are too busy to come ? Ring an accredited security company. They will come, take your statement, take fingerprints, and send the bill to the funding authority.

No risk to the police. Unless they are hopeless.

[R6_kid]

Pfft most of the rent-a-cop guards I've seen couldn't chase me down on foot let alone point a gun straight enough to shoot me.

[Swoop]

Once upon a time in NZ, banks had revolvers to deter robbers.

[alanzs]

People can't rely on the police to protect them. Check out this article:

http://www.local10.com/news/13594353/detail.html

PLANTATION, Fla. -- The family of one of the men who was shot by a retired United States Marine while they attempted to rob a Subway sandwich shop said the customer shouldn't have pulled the trigger.

According to Plantation police, two armed men barged into the Subway at 1949 Pine Island Road shortly after 11 p.m. Wednesday, demanding money from the employee behind the counter. When they tried to force John Lovell into the bathroom, he pulled out a gun and shot both men, police said.

Donicio Arrindell, 22, was shot in the head and later died at the hospital. Fredrick Gadson, 21, was shot in the chest and ran from the Subway, but police found him in hiding in some bushes on the property of a nearby BankAtlantic.

Lovell, 71, was the lone customer at the time. Police said he had a concealed weapons permit.Gadson's grandparents told Local 10 on Thursday that Lovell was wrong for pulling the trigger."He should not have taken the law in his hands," said Rosa Jones, Gadson's grandmother.Her husband, Ivory Jones, also condemned the media for its portrayal of Lovell's actions."I don't condone what they did, (but) I definitely don't condone the news people making him out to seem like they're making a hero out of this man because he shot somebody down," he said.But Lovell's neighbor said he made the right decision."He did the right thing," said Wendi Hill. "I mean, I was glad that it was them that got shot and not him."Police said Lovell, a retired Marine, wouldn't be charged.

One less asshole preying on innocent people.:2guns:

[Naki Rat]

I watched the news tonight. A security guard responded to a call for help from a small retailer. The rat-bags said, we will be back with a gun. The police, as usual were busy at a check-point, and declined to attend.



That would be the same news that saw Uncle Helen ducking for cover over the suggestion that Triads would make a better job of law keeping than the current resources (police), and last week ducking for cover over truckies protesting over the treatment the politicians are serving them up?

Am I alone in seeing a pattern emerging here?

[Swoop]

That would be the same news that saw Uncle Helen ducking for cover over the suggestion that Triads would make a better job of law keeping than the current resources (police), and last week ducking for cover over truckies protesting over the treatment the politicians are serving them up?

Am I alone in seeing a pattern emerging here?
No. We have known that the Looney Labourite sect are fuckwits, for quite some time now. Any more "ducking" and Heilen will be classifed as a mallard.

[davereid]

Pfft most of the rent-a-cop guards I've seen couldn't chase me down on foot let alone point a gun straight enough to shoot me.
The recent case of the cops that could not shoot a dog ( a dog that didn't know it was being shot at, gave them 8 chances, and was never going to shoot back) shows the cops are no better.

All I'm suggesting is that the standard of your training and ability be the standard.

Not who your employer is.

Cos the current lot couldn't catch a cold at the rugby.

[CDFloss]

I had an alarm in my house in South Africa linked to an armed response company (via phone line & radio backup). It was great. Some people say "Oh, judging by the local security guards at XYZ mall down the road I wouldnt trust them with a gun!" - but they forget that if guards are going to be armed, then they need to be trained to a higher standard, and would be paid more. In SA lots of the guards were ex-cops, as the private companies paid better for experience.

The armed response cars had rotating roof lights, and would speed to confirmed "situations". Not sure if they were technically allowed to, but never saw them getting hassled about it.

Nothing like accidently setting the alarm off getting home late one night, and within 3 minutes hearing talking outside... open the front door to see who it is, and find one guard with a glock drawn about the ring the doorbell, and his partner taking cover behind the ute with shotgun at the ready. Very reassuring I can tell you. :sweatdrop

Can be expensive - but its worth it if the perceived risk is taking its toll on your quality of life. :msn-wink:

[Timber020]

Arm the security guards, then the parking wardens,arm the bouncers, then the bank teller, then the postman, then the taxi driver, then the gas station attendant, then the courier driver, then everyone else, then let me know if we all feel safer.

I lived in the states, I like guns, but they didnt make me feel safer. I might be biased because I had guns drawn on me by the cops, a security guard ("put down the weopon!" he screamed with Glock aimed at me while I was lying in a deck chair reading the hunt for red october) and a kid with a 38 police special.

I do think we should have more robust law in regard to defending people or property. Texas has some good uns, but arming security guards? Man not any of the ones I have come across, I would trust my postman more.

[CookMySock]

You can't just shoot people when they do something you don't like. Having said that, I am ready to arm myself. Maybe I shouldn't then.. :whistle:

DB

[Mikkel]

Privatised law enforcement is a slippery slope at best.

More guns does not equal more safety.

[Finn]

Privatised law enforcement is a slippery slope

Are you referring to the Asian vigilante crime fighting group?

[Mr Merde]

Once upon a time in NZ, banks had revolvers to deter robbers.

I first started work in the National Bank in Hunters Corner in 1974. The manager (Mr Nicholson) took great delight in showing me the revolver kept in the drawer of his desk. He was also very proud of the fact that once a year he had to spend a week shooting the thing so as to qualify.

Until 1920 in the UK it was perfectly legal for citizens to hold and carry firearms, this was changed as the government of the time was scared there was going to be an armed uprising by the lower classes so they started a register. If there were a revolution they could take the firearms from the lower cl;asses and pass them to the upper class. (Factual as recorded in Hansard).

As NZ was in the habit of adopting all UK laws until very recently I am assuming that is when they also stop trusting their population and took away the basic human right of self defence and self preservation of ones self and family.

Rant over

[firefighter]

I had an alarm in my house in South Africa linked to an armed response company (via phone line & radio backup). It was great. Some people say "Oh, judging by the local security guards at XYZ mall down the road I wouldnt trust them with a gun!" - but they forget that if guards are going to be armed, then they need to be trained to a higher standard, and would be paid more. In SA lots of the guards were ex-cops, as the private companies paid better for experience.

The armed response cars had rotating roof lights, and would speed to confirmed "situations". Not sure if they were technically allowed to, but never saw them getting hassled about it.

Nothing like accidently setting the alarm off getting home late one night, and within 3 minutes hearing talking outside... open the front door to see who it is, and find one guard with a glock drawn about the ring the doorbell, and his partner taking cover behind the ute with shotgun at the ready. Very reassuring I can tell you. :sweatdrop

Can be expensive - but its worth it if the perceived risk is taking its toll on your quality of life. :msn-wink:

dude that sounds great but N.Z isn't as dangerous as South Africa and doesn't require that sort or protection yet!

[Steam]

I was a supervisor for Chubb and I worked for ADT Armourguard. So belive me when I say giving guards guns would be a disaster.

Most of them can't read or write properly, a lot of them are WINZ rejects who were told to apply for the job by WINZ, and they get paid five cents more than minimum wage. A lot of guards just sleep.
Would you trust a guard who can't get any other kind of job, being paid minimum wage?

On the other end of the spectrum, the guards who really do their jobs well are pretty much nutbags, eccentric, obsessive guys who hint they are in the SAS or the Armed Offenders Squad in their spare time.
They do a great job of securing a site or patrolling, but you wouldn't want to invite them for dinner unless you wanted to talk about conspiracy theories and counter-terrorism tactics for several hours. If you don't want WINZ rejects with guns, you REALLY don't want these guys with guns.

It's a baaaad idea.

[firefighter]

Dude armed security guards that can speed around the place with guns........geeeezus mate no bloody way, sit outside a volunteer station and watch them respond, and you'll see what civilians do when given a little authority......not all the same of course, but man it would be chaos, you'd be frightened if the military were called in and armed, who are trained and disciplined, also so are the police (of course) and they aren't armed yet, as for a "trained" islander security guard who would remain a civilian with no real rank structure, a light bar on the roof a siren and a gun.....are you fucken nuts???

[Mr Merde]

Just came back from a 3 week holiday to Aussie.

Armed police and armed security guards.

Dont go near an ATM when they are filling it up.

If it works for one why cant it work here.

Oh I forgot, we cant be trusted by the powers that be, to actually look after ourselves and take some responsibility for our lives and actions.

[firefighter]

Just came back from a 3 week holiday to Aussie.

Armed police and armed security guards.

Dont go near an ATM when they are filling it up.

If it works for one why cant it work here.

Oh I forgot, we cant be trusted by the powers that be, to actually look after ourselves and take some responsibility for our lives and actions.

you ever watched the aussie news?........they actually need that over there.....I agree our police should definately be armed but I just can't accept having "Sefu pua" security guard carrying around a gun.....

[Roadrash]

The cops have been crying out for Tazors and still don't have them, the stink that was caused when people thought cops might get such a thing was huge, now they want the Cops to be armed, yet i have yet to meet a Cop who wants to carry a firearm full time, It isn't the Police who decide the politics, its the Politicains , if ya don't like the way things are being done coming up with ideas like arming sucurity gaurds isn't the answer, go see your local MP.

The WALLACE shooting is still being investigated now, maybe if people got there information from the right sources instead of what they see on tv , something constructive might be done.

[Steam]

Dont go near an ATM when they are filling it up.

If it works for one why cant it work here.


I used to fill up the ATMs, and trust me, you DON'T want the guys who do that to have guns. They are slightly smarter than trained monkeys. Slightly.

[Sanx]

Giving people more guns is never the answer to any problem. The gun-lobby in the USA loves to boast about how in areas with a high gun ownership rate, rates of assault and rape are lower. It's true, because in most cases what starts as rape or assault turns into murder. The gun-lobby also likes to claim that banning hand guns drives them underground. Yes - obviously some will go onto the black market, but in places where it's been tried (the UK being a pertinent example) the vast majority of hand guns simply get handed in and destroyed. It's also worth noting that the two major gun massacres in the UK - Hungerford and Dunblane - and the Virginia tech and Columbine massacres in the US were all carried out by people who'd obtained the guns legally. (OK, the Columbine shooters stole the guns from a grand-parent, but the grand-parent obtained them legally.)

It's precisely becaue of this that I am against arming the Police and vehemently against arming the mouth-breathing retards I see working for private security firms. Whilst it's certainly true the Police cannot (or will not) respond to burglar alarms and certainly don't seem to have the desire to actualy attend crime scenes unless there's a chance they might make some money out of it, handing the responsibility to private law-enforcement firms would be the start of a very slippery slope.

Oh, and if you need examples of why arming the Police is a bad idea, imagine what the ginga cunt would be like with a pistol?

[fire eyes]

why blame Labour? seems to me a majority of the country put them into power .. isn't that how they get there in the first place? ummm voted in by the majority? Armed Security Guards may not be such a bad idea if they have the proper training but then wouldnt they then be Policeman?

[scumdog]

Oh, and if you need examples of why arming the Police is a bad idea, imagine what the ginga cunt would be like with a pistol?

Well it might shut up all those moaning pricks...:shutup:

[Sanx]

Well it might shut up all those moaning pricks...:shutup:

A very good point you make, sir. I stand corrected!

This thread reminded me of something I heard on BBC Radio's From Our Own Correspondent programme a few weeks ago. The original story's here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/7359513.stm), but for those that can't be bothered...



Despite the fact there are more than 200 million guns in circulation, there is a certain tranquility and civility about American life.

Deepwater, Missouri has a motto: "A great lil' town nestled in the heartland."

Deepwater considers itself to be an exemplar of the best of American life. A place where outsiders - if they ever penetrated this far - would find home-cooked apple pie and friendly, warm, hard-working folk.

Among those folk, I have no doubt, is Ronald Long. Last month Mr Long decided to install a satellite television system in his Deepwater home. His efforts to make a hole in the outside wall came to nothing because Mr Long did not possess a drill.

But he did have a .22 calibre gun.

He fired two shots from the inside of the bedroom.

The second killed his wife who was standing outside. He will face no charges. The police accept it was an accident.

Do you really want people this dumb with guns?

[scumdog]

[QUOTE=Sanx;1638907

Do you really want people this dumb with guns?[/QUOTE]

Well they frikken well have cars - and kill with THEM.

And cars weren't designed to kill.

[devnull]

A good article on guns without the bullshit...

http://www.thebriefingroom.com/archives/2007/08/the_gun_debate.html

[Sanx]

And cars weren't designed to kill.

And you've got it in one. Cars aren't designed to kill people. Yes, they can be used for that purpose, but then if I put my mind to it, I could probably kill someone with just about half the objects I have on my desk if I put my mind to it.

The difference is that hand-guns are designed for one thing and one thing only. Killing people. You can go hunting with a rifle. You can use a shotgun for rabbit and possum control. But if you buy a hand-gun, it's because you forsee the time when you might have to use it to kill someone.

[Mr Merde]

..... But if you buy a hand-gun, it's because you forsee the time when you might have to use it to kill someone.

Sorry but I take exception to that part of your statement. I partake in the sport of target shooting with pistols. I happen to own 7 pistols, each suitable for different target disciplines. I never bought any of them with the idea of the time I was going to use them to shoot someone.

Actually if I was going out to shoot someone I would by preference be rather carrying my 12 guage shotgun with 00 buck shot.

[scumdog]

. But if you buy a hand-gun, it's because you forsee the time when you might have to use it to kill someone.

Or do as I have done: Used one to make a lot of holes in a lot of paper...

[ManDownUnder]

Sorry but I take exception to that part of your statement. I partake in the sport of target shooting with pistols. I happen to own 7 pistols, each suitable for different target disciplines.


Or do as I have done: Used one to make a lot of holes in a lot of paper...

You guys are doing nothing for the nasty reputation of reckless gun owners. I thought we were all mass murdering wannabes hoping to plunge the country into anarchy. :blink:

Are you saying rtesponsible people own guns?

As for arming guards. No. Two words for you - Arms Race. A fundamental of an arms race is the attacker has the advantage (time to plan, equip and gain surprise). The defender only has time to react.

Let's not up the ante if we don't have to.

And Steam's post worries me. If it's da boyz from da hood dat can't land da job - and we give them guns? FARK!

[Swoop]

(the UK being a pertinent example) the vast majority of hand guns simply get handed in and destroyed.
England is not a good example to use when thinking about "gun control".
Gun crime has risen dramatically since the "dis-arming of the population", but the criminals are happier.
GF was living in Sarf London and regularly went to sleep to the sound of gunfire.

The difference is that hand-guns are designed for one thing and one thing only. Killing people.
Buahahahahaha!!!:rofl:

You guys are doing nothing for the nasty reputation of reckless gun owners. I thought we were all mass murdering wannabes hoping to plunge the country into anarchy. :blink:
Sorry!
Hey youse muthaf*ckers, put your apostrophe's in da rite places or we'll bust a cap in yo ass!
Any better?

[ManDownUnder]

Gun crime has risen dramatically since the "dis-arming of the population", but the criminals are happier.

Let me guess - they broke the rules and didn't hand theirs in too? ... bastards...


Hey youse muthaf*ckers, put your apostrophe's in da rite places or we'll bust a cap in yo ass!


Hitch - is that you???

[Delerium]

I was going to rob a bank tomorrow with my hand gun, but no wait, I cant do that anymore, they want me to hand it in for destruction, thats after I put it on the national register, must be law abiding right up until the point the bank gets robbed FFS.

[Toaster]

I like the Saudi approach.

[Jiminy]

Time to call in OCP...

[CDFloss]

dude that sounds great but N.Z isn't as dangerous as South Africa and doesn't require that sort or protection yet!

True (thank goodness), and I'd hate to see it heading that way, but if the numpties in the beehive keep chasing bullshit policies, and rubishing the oposition instead of actually facing the REAL problems and giving those on the front lines (or behind the sentencing) real power, then it might come to this extreme one day. :buggerd:

But hey, at least NZ will still have it's GE-free, green, anti-smacking, super-PC, nanny-state image in tact! :clap:

[Mikkel]

Are you referring to the Asian vigilante crime fighting group?

Not in particular - one nice thing about triads and their ilk is that they are not officially condone organisations tasked with keeping order.


I used to fill up the ATMs, and trust me, you DON'T want the guys who do that to have guns. They are slightly smarter than trained monkeys. Slightly.

So by implication you used to be slightly smarter than a trained monkey. What happened? :p

[p/t] - couldn't help it.


But if you buy a hand-gun, it's because you forsee the time when you might have to use it to kill someone.

Or you just want something which is handy and can be used to make holes in walls - for putting up pictures, satellite dishes, etc.


Time to call in OCP...

Fuck yes!

Classic. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA2Zf_YHFRU&feature=related)
:Punk: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNckavq9fiY)

[imdying]

Hmmm, not sure that a 'Couldn't be a cop' is the best person to arm with a weapon of any sort.

[scumdog]

England is not a good example to use when thinking about "gun control".
Gun crime has risen dramatically since the "dis-arming of the population", but the criminals are happier.
GF was living in Sarf London and regularly went to sleep to the sound of gunfire.

True that - just Google up the stats, more killed with pistols (per capita) than in New Zealand by a considerable margin - and most of out 'handguns' are only that because of their dimensions (Cut down rifles etc)

And while handguns are totally banned ( even Olympic shooter have to practice on th econtinent) pistols flood in viw European smugglers.

[Mr Merde]

....
And while handguns are totally banned ( even Olympic shooter have to practice on th econtinent) pistols flood in viw European smugglers.

I know this for a fact.

Bought a black powder revolver in France (no licence needed) threw it into the boot of the car and travelled back to the UK.

No problem.

Result one more pistol in the illegal supply of handguns in the UK.

I have since brought this to NZ, registered it and sold it.

[slofox]

The police, as usual were busy at a check-point...

While waiting in line at a checkpoint, I watched a copper wandering down the line of cones, moving them one by one, about 10cm to the right.....VERY important job that - no wonder they are so busy at the checkpoints.....

[scumdog]

While waiting in line at a checkpoint, I watched a copper wandering down the line of cones, moving them one by one, about 10cm to the right.....VERY important job that - no wonder they are so busy at the checkpoints.....

Nice to see you getting top value for your tax-dollars...

[alanzs]

I thought this post was entitled "Time to guard our arms."
Sorry...
Carry on....

:lol:

[Swoop]

Hitch - is that you???
I'm standing in for him.
There is a big debate about what to pack for the American trip. Whether or not, to take the US English dictionary, or ours.
:rolleyes:

[ManDownUnder]

I'm standing in for him.
There is a big debate about what to pack for the American trip. Whether or not, to take the US English dictionary, or ours.
:rolleyes:

American. Their UK dictionaries got heaved overboard in Boston along with about 20 tonnes of tea a few years back.

It doesn't affect their use of apostrophies - so there's still considerable fun to be had.

[Sanx]

Sorry but I take exception to that part of your statement. I partake in the sport of target shooting with pistols. I happen to own 7 pistols, each suitable for different target disciplines. I never bought any of them with the idea of the time I was going to use them to shoot someone.

Actually if I was going out to shoot someone I would by preference be rather carrying my 12 guage shotgun with 00 buck shot.

So in order to take part in that sport, you need to own your own hand-gun and have it round the house? Plenty of people play rugby, but they don't own a pitch to play on. If you enjoy target shooting (and I'm sorry, but hand-guns are hardly accurate for the most part unless you buy a specific pistol designed specifically for target shooting) then you can buy a gun, and leave it locked up at a gun club, minus some crucial part that you take home with you and keep locked up there. You certainly don't need to be able to keep a couple of Glocks lying about the house.


Or do as I have done: Used one to make a lot of holes in a lot of paper...

Buy a hole punch.


England is not a good example to use when thinking about "gun control".
Gun crime has risen dramatically since the "dis-arming of the population", but the criminals are happier.
GF was living in Sarf London and regularly went to sleep to the sound of gunfire.

Oh bullshit. Gun crime may well have risen, but it's fuck all to do with gun control. Even before the current gun laws were enacted, owning a hand gun was a rarity. People didn't walk the streets armed to the teeth. In 27 years of living there, I never met one person who had any firearm other than a .22 rifle or a shotgun.

Criminals can get guns? Sure they can, but having them available only on the black market does limit their supply and also makes the Police's job easier when they know that all hand guns are illegal, instead of trying to establish if someone's got a licence to own one, and so on. You see a pistol, it's illegal and you call in the armed offenders squad.

[Swoop]

So in order to take part in that sport, you need to own your own hand-gun and have it round the house? Plenty of people play rugby, but they don't own a pitch to play on.
Hmm, a bit off target there. If you play thugby you take the ball home with you, but the field stays where it is... just like shooting sports really.
"Having it around the house?" Do you think that a pistol gets hung up on a hook next to the car keys when you get home?:rolleyes:

If you enjoy target shooting (and I'm sorry, but hand-guns are hardly accurate for the most part unless you buy a specific pistol designed specifically for target shooting)
A simple "Buahahahaha" will suffice to this comment.

then you can buy a gun, and leave it locked up at a gun club, minus some crucial part that you take home with you and keep locked up there.
This method has already been used (and has failed) in other countries.

You certainly don't need to be able to keep a couple of Glocks lying about the house..
You really do not know what the firearm's laws are, in NZ, do you?

Oh bullshit. Gun crime may well have risen, but its fuck all to do with gun control.
Unfortunately it has everything to do with gun control. If it weren't for the anti-fun brigade, the UK would still have competitive sportspeople. What has happened is that shooters who wish to compete, have to go overseas to practice, then compete, and then leave their guns overseas as well. The Olympic Games were a "special event" and surrounded with the PC bollocks we have come to know from western society.
Luckily the UK crims know that they are the only people with guns, so there isn't any worry when they go to rob someone.

I do have to ask what your experience is with firearms, particularly in NZ?
The security provisions??? What about those?

The laws in force here are some of the best in the world.
A particularly good example of the worst kind of law, is the Canadian example. Not only ineffective but also stupendously expensive for the country to maintain.
The UK example was a nice knee-jerk reaction to Dunblane. This incident was another police fuck-up, since they had AMPLE opportunities of prior warnings, and chances to pull his licence which would have dealt with that fuckwit. The sporting community suffered because of police incompetence.

[scumdog]

Hmm, a bit off target there.

"Must spread some bling"

Right on the button there matey, top stuff.

[scumdog]

People didn't walk the streets armed to the teeth. In 27 years of living there, I never met one person who had any firearm other than a .22 rifle or a shotgun.


Just check the number of firearm related homicides in say London compared to Auckland and see how they rate per capita.

And limiting guns to the black market means that only criminals will have guns, - and we all know why THEY want guns.

BTW: I work with UK guys that have attended more deaths relating to pistols than any cop in NZ will ever attend - and pistols are 100% banned in the UK, unlike in NZ.

[Sanx]

Hmm, a bit off target there. If you play thugby you take the ball home with you, but the field stays where it is... just like shooting sports really.
"Having it around the house?" Do you think that a pistol gets hung up on a hook next to the car keys when you get home?:rolleyes:[QUOTE]

Of course I don't. From what I understand about the gun laws in NZ, guns need to be kept unloaded in a locked gun cabinet, and I believe you're not allowed to keep the ammunition in the same place. Could be wrong, of course.

[quote=Swoop;1639514]A simple "Buahahahaha" will suffice to this comment.

Over what range is a normal hand-gun accurate compared to, for instance, a good .22 rifle? From a quick browse of indoor shooting range websites in the US, 50 foot ranges seem quite common. At 50 foot, even I could pick out a reasonable pattern with a decent rifle (and yes, I have shot rifles and enjoyed it). Olympic pistol shooting is carried out over three distances, the longest being 50m - and the guns they use are highly specialised for that exact purpose.

I just had a quick browse of the websites of a few major gun manufacturers. There was much mention of reliability, magazine capacity, the ability to carry the weapon concealed, and the suitability of weapons for different purposes including carrying it as a 'backup weapon'. Only on specific models designed for competition shooting was accuracy and suitability for that purpose mentioned.


This method has already been used (and has failed) in other countries.

And these countries are?


You really do not know what the firearm's laws are, in NZ, do you?

I was being slightly facetious, but you have actually proved a point. Given that you cannot carry a pistol with you when you take your kids to school or do the weekly shopping, what use is it as a defence weapon? Given that a firearm must be kept in a locked cabinet, and the ammunition kept seperately and securely, owning a pistol would be of limited use even in the event of a home invasion.


Unfortunately it has everything to do with gun control. If it weren't for the anti-fun brigade, the UK would still have competitive sportspeople. What has happened is that shooters who wish to compete, have to go overseas to practice, then compete, and then leave their guns overseas as well. The Olympic Games were a "special event" and surrounded with the PC bollocks we have come to know from western society.

Right - so competitive pistol shooters have suffered. Big fucken deal.


Luckily the UK crims know that they are the only people with guns, so there isn't any worry when they go to rob someone.

But even before the current level of gun control in the UK, it was extremely rare for a person to own a handgun. People just didn't own them. So the situation has not changed in 99.9% of cases.


The UK example was a nice knee-jerk reaction to Dunblane. This incident was another police fuck-up, since they had AMPLE opportunities of prior warnings, and chances to pull his licence which would have dealt with that fuckwit. The sporting community suffered because of police incompetence.

Well, given that the two biggest gun massacres in the UK were carried out by people who held their weapons legally - people of good social standing in the community - depriving those people of owning hand-guns (and it was just hand-guns - you can still own rifles and shotguns) seemed like a good idea. And there hasn't been another such incident since.

[sid201]

I'm responsible, my firearms are correctly and securely stored as is my ammunition(separately) which is required by law .
Sorry but I get really pissed off when some folks come to the conclusion that gun owner= future spree killer :2guns:
I think police should be armed with Tazers and more should be recruited -I've had two instances over the last month where police either didn't come at all(not a111 call) or the responce time was unacceptable (111 call35-40 mins before arrival)
It's highly unlikely that if there was an incident at my home I could gain access to a gun to defend myself (4 locks 3 keys and 2 rooms) and my family but I'd probably be able to do a hell of a lot of damage with a chair leg!!




The UK example was a nice knee-jerk reaction to This incident was another police fuck-up, since they had AMPLE opportunities of prior warnings, and chances to pull his licence which would have dealt with that fuckwit. The sporting community suffered because of police incompetence.
there was lot's of issues with Thomas Hamilton http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre

[Sanx]

Just check the number of firearm related homicides in say London compared to Auckland and see how they rate per capita.

And limiting guns to the black market means that only criminals will have guns, - and we all know why THEY want guns.

BTW: I work with UK guys that have attended more deaths relating to pistols than any cop in NZ will ever attend - and pistols are 100% banned in the UK, unlike in NZ.

The availability of guns in the UK has nothing to do with the gun-control laws, but the country's geographical poximity to mainland Europe. At its closest point, England's 42km from France. There is massive traffic by train, truck, car and on foot between the UK and Europe every day. It would simply be impossible for the Police to thoroughly search every vehicle coming in.

But the gun crime rates in the UK are still very low. 0.5% of all crime is gun-related. The per-capita gun death rates are also low compared to many other countries:

Gun murders per 100,000 population (2007)

USA: 3.92
Switzerland: 0.93
Italy: 0.81
Canada: 0.69
Finland: 0.61
Netherlands: 0.46
Germany: 0.33
Poland: 0.29
France: 0.28
Australia: 0.27
England and Wales: 0.1
Japan: 0.03

I can't find up to date figures for New Zealand, but in 2000 there were 0.12 gun deaths per 100,000 people in England and Wales (Scotland obviously doesn't count) and 0.18 gun deaths per 100,000 people in NZ.

Some caveats about the information above:


The figures do not differentiate between different types of firearm. If that information is recorded, I cannot find it.
The UK's figures include accidental deaths and 'firearms' are include all weapons for which one needs a firearms licences, including high-power air rifles. By contrast, the US figures are intentional homicides only.

Less than 0.5% of all crime recorded by Police in the UK is gun-related. That compares quite favourably to the 9% of crime in the US that's gun-related. In 2006 68% of murders, 42% of robberies and 22% of aggravated assaults in the US were carried out with a firearm. In the same period in the UK, there were 566 "serious or fatal" firearm injuries in the UK. I can't find figures for 2006 for the US, but in 2004 the FBI estimated that there were 10650 firearm homicides in the US. Now, the US population is about five times that of the UK, so on per capita terms, the US rate would equate to 2100 odd gun murders in the UK. There were actually just 59 gun deaths in the UK; approximately 2.8% of the US figure in per-capita terms.

Sources:


Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence)
Gun Control Network (http://www.gun-control-network.org/GF10.htm)
US Department of Justice Firearms and Crime Statistics (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm)
UK Home Office (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime-victims/reducing-crime/gun-crime/)



Just check the number of firearm related homicides in say London compared to Auckland and see how they rate per capita.

If you can find up to date figures for Auckland or even NZ as a whole, I'd be interested in seeing them. I simply cannot find them via Google, anyway.

[davereid]

The availability of guns in the UK has nothing to do with the gun-control laws, but the country's geographical poximity to mainland Europe. At its closest point, England's 42km from France.

If you are implying that guns are not freely available to bad guys in New Zealand due to our geographic isolation you are wrong.

Pick up the paper on any day, and you will read of criminals using handguns. A woman shot in the head, police looking for an armed bad guy, etc etc. Its just daily reading.

In spite of our best intentions borders are, always have been, and will always remain leaky.

I know exactly which pub to go to, which bad guy to see, and how much it would cost to get my hands on a handgun if I was so inclined.

You will never stop criminal violence of any kind by limiting the victims self-defence options.

[Mr Merde]

[quote=Swoop;1639514]....But even before the current level of gun control in the UK, it was extremely rare for a person to own a handgun. People just didn't own them. So the situation has not changed in 99.9% of cases.....

.

Bollocks

I started pistol shooting in the UK in 1980.

Every year I went to a competition at Bisley. This was a week long competition for all different types of pistol shooting. There was in the final years upwards of 2000 competitors. The Olympics only has about 7,000 -10,000 over 2 weeks.

When the government banned handguns totally it cost them approx 1 billion pounds in buy back. That was at the much reduced rate they paid in compensation (200 ukp for a full bore, 100 ukp for a smallbore, just one of my target pistols cost over 1000 ukp and I had 10 of the things for different events).

It was estimated that apart from the 200,000 pistol shooters in England, Scotland and Wales, that it would directly affect upon the livelyhood of 600,000 persons.

The shooting sports at the time was rated the second most participated sport in the UK. The most paricipated was angling.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Nice to see you getting top value for your tax-dollars...


:D ten characters blah blah

[HenryDorsetCase]

While waiting in line at a checkpoint, I watched a copper wandering down the line of cones, moving them one by one, about 10cm to the right.....VERY important job that - no wonder they are so busy at the checkpoints.....

did you roll the car window down and shout "Hey, you're a public servant, get me another beer willya?"

because they love that. Pleecemin and wimmin doing that job are just gagging for some light relief from the tedium of their humdrum existence. Trust me on this, try it next time.

[HenryDorsetCase]

"Having it around the house?" Do you think that a pistol gets hung up on a hook next to the car keys when you get home?:rolleyes:


Well, yeah: with a full mag, and one in the chamber and safety off. They're always bleating about getting kids off the couch and stop playing playstations and what not: giving them easy access to handguns like that would do that.

[HenryDorsetCase]

The cops have been crying out for Tazors and still don't have them, the stink that was caused when people thought cops might get such a thing was huge, now they want the Cops to be armed, yet i have yet to meet a Cop who wants to carry a firearm full time, It isn't the Police who decide the politics, its the Politicains , if ya don't like the way things are being done coming up with ideas like arming sucurity gaurds isn't the answer, go see your local MP.

The WALLACE shooting is still being investigated now, maybe if people got there information from the right sources instead of what they see on tv , something constructive might be done.

Just to go wildly off topic for a second: My view is that Wallace got exactly what he deserved, and crucifying Keith Abbott not only will not bring the waste of space back to life, but also does no one any favours. One mans opinion.

[portokiwi]

No we should not arm our security officers, Its true half the guards out there do not do the job they should be doing. Its true that a lot of them sleep on duty, a few of them also moonlight while they were on duty.
The training courses they do are a joke.
The after training for most are almost nonexsistant.
I would say they should be provided with stab proof vests as they are the front of most incidents.
The only problem I would see is some of the selling them. They are paid crap.
Its the old saying you pay for what you get.
They realy need to tighten up the security industry. But with WINZ chucking people in as security guards with very little training or motivation what do you expect.
Some firms are very good but they manly do VIP or close protection and private homes.
Those firms pay well and are very selective on who the employ.

[Swoop]

Of course I don't. From what I understand about the gun laws in NZ...
OK, so you are not conversant with what actually happens in NZ.
I would suggest that you go to a police station and apply for a licence. This will give you much more knowledge in what the rules are.
You will need to provide a range of character witnesses who will vouch for your good character.
The membership of a club is necessary if you want to own pistols, as will be membership of Pistol NZ, the governing body. More checks? You bet!

Over what range is a normal hand-gun accurate compared to, for instance, a good .22 rifle? From a quick browse of indoor shooting range websites in the US, 50 foot ranges seem quite common. At 50 foot, even I could pick out a reasonable pattern with a decent rifle (and yes, I have shot rifles and enjoyed it). Olympic pistol shooting is carried out over three distances, the longest being 50m - and the guns they use are highly specialised for that exact purpose..
Your average pistol is accurate out to 75metres or thereabouts. Accurised or specific target pistols are used out to 200 metres (http://www.pistol.org.au/Comps/Metallic_Silhouette.php).
50 metre ranges are quite common however 25 metre ranges are the most commonly found. Do not get into the type of thinking that a pistol is only accurate over those distances however.

I just had a quick browse of the websites of a few major gun manufacturers. There was much mention of reliability, magazine capacity, the ability to carry the weapon concealed, and the suitability of weapons for different purposes including carrying it as a 'backup weapon'...
That is marketing for you, especially if they are US manufacturers since they are catering to their market.


And these countries are?.
Predominantly European. I'll go and have a look for you.


I was being slightly facetious, but you have actually proved a point. Given that you cannot carry a pistol with you when you take your kids to school or do the weekly shopping, what use is it as a defence weapon? Given that a firearm must be kept in a locked cabinet, and the ammunition kept separately and securely, owning a pistol would be of limited use even in the event of a home invasion..
Quite correct. Since ownership in NZ is for sporting purposes (target shooting) they cannot be used as a defensive firearm. Also the hassle involved with getting all the bits, ammo, keys together, would take ages if the need arose.


Right - so competitive pistol shooters have suffered. Big fucken deal..
If litre bikes and/or WSB/Moto GP were banned, you would be having a whine as well if your sport or recreation was taken away from you.


Well, given that the two biggest gun massacres in the UK were carried out by people who held their weapons legally - people of good social standing in the community...
Actually you will find that those people were alien from their "community". Our local shooting at Aramoana is a classic case in point and another time where the police knew about the problem yet failed to act accordingly.
Your pommy mate at Dunblane... (covered in another members' post).

depriving those people of owning hand-guns (and it was just hand-guns - you can still own rifles and shotguns) seemed like a good idea. And there hasn't been another such incident since.
Yet.

The ownership of shotguns and rifles is severely limited as well. The whining anti-anything brigade will obviously want them done away with as well. The crim's will be sitting on the sideline, quietly watching with anticipation.