Beliefs on the afterlife

[SpeedyGirl]

So I am sitting here, contemplating life in general and was wondering what are your beliefs about the here after??? I’m sorry if this offends anyone, I am not out to do that at all.

The reason for this thread … in the last 3 weeks I will have attended 4 funerals, and I don’t think that this will be the last in the near future but crossing fingers that it will be.

All had an effect on me in different ways, ages ranged from 45 to 70, none were really religious and I wondered, what do you think is out there?? And what brings you comfort? With the diversity of people on this site it got me wondering about what you all think….

Now I was brought up in a catholic family and know the basics from that religion…and I have my own non religious thoughts on what happens when you go, and some people that I have spoken to call me morbid as I don’t find death a taboo subject… actually I am probably the most organised if anything does happen to me, its all written down… just interested to see what people believe.

So help me out peeps, what are your thoughts/beliefs and please try to keep it on topic I genuinely want to know!

[yod]

there isn't one

[Nagash]

Personally,

I don't believe there is an after life. When you die, you're conciousness ceases to exist and there is nothing more.

Not a too cheery way of looking at death but you can't expect to live forever in one plane of existance or another..

[CB ARGH]

Humans are no more superier than the average goat. If a goat dies, it won't go to goatie heaven. However it may re-appear during Moevember (haha, goatie, get it? Ha. Ha. Ha... no.)

Sorry, this is a serious topic. So I will have to be straight up and say, maybe. I personally have never felt a ghost, but my mother swears to have felt one when we went to my great grandparent's house to clean it up (and to nick their golf clubs :P), and I believed her.

I'm on the fence. I believe in the almighty in the sky, but I don't believe in hell, or heaven. It's complicated. Scientifically there would be proof to every single theory that has ever existed, so it's hard to not fall off that fence.

[peasea]

When you're gone you're gone, compost, worm fodder etc.
There is no god either, religion is just a punchup to see who has the best imaginary friend.

Want something to do on a Sunday? Drill holes in your back yard and look for either oil or water. If you strike gold by accident hide in in your teeth or up your arse but don't put it with a finance company.

I looove philosophy.

[awayatc]

i am however a firm believer in life before death!

So better use it.....:sweatdrop

[Cajun]

i don't believe in heaven/hell

but i believe in more underworld, aka aicient greek styles.

My wife knows i want to be burned with two gold pieces to pay the boatman to cross the river styx

[peasea]

Humans are no more superier than the average goat. If a goat dies, it won't go to goatie heaven. However it may re-appear during Moevember (haha, goatie, get it? Ha. Ha. Ha... no.)

Sorry, this is a serious topic. So I will have to be straight up and say, maybe. I personally have never felt a ghost, but my mother swears to have felt one when we went to my great grandparent's house to clean it up (and to nick their golf clubs :P), and I believed her.

I'm on the fence. I believe in the almighty in the sky, but I don't believe in hell, or heaven. It's complicated. Scientifically there would be proof to every single theory that has ever existed, so it's hard to not fall off that fence.

Tell that to Humpty Dumpty

[nallac]

jeeze i'll have to go with every one else
theres nothing ....

its a nice thought ,heaven/god

but i don't beleive in that stuff.

[Ixion]

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son , that whomsoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but shall have eternal life.

And I have seen a long dead chief sitting on his tomb outside St Faith's church.

[Quasievil]

There is alot of beliefs in this world many conflict with each other, my belief is firm and strong and I know in my after life I will be looked after by big breasted woman who serve me beer and give blow jobs on demand, I will have a choice of bikes and my own race track to play on, and when my lights go out I want you all to take comfort that I am being looked after in the heaven I refer to as BLISS

FFS what is this womans fucking weekly :Pokey:

[nallac]

There is alot of beliefs in this world many conflict with each other, my belief is firm and strong and I know in my after life I will be looked after by big breasted woman who serve me beer and give blow jobs on demand, I will have a choice of bikes and my own race track to play on, and when my lights go out I want you all to take comfort that I am being looked after in the heaven I refer to as BLISS

FFS what is this womans fucking weekly :Pokey:

i wanna go there when i die, woohoo:drool::drool::drool:

[98tls]

i wanna go there when i die, woohoo:drool::drool::drool: There advertising for truck drivers in Pakistan:niceone:

[peasea]

i wanna go there when i die, woohoo:drool::drool::drool:

Me too, what say we start our OWN version of a Destiny (type) Church?

Kicking off the ten commandments:

1) Thou shalt not stop
2)

[erik]

I haven't experienced anything that proves (or makes me believe) either way that an afterlife exists or doesn't exist. I'm agnostic.

However, I do like the idea that some sort of afterlife exists. And I figure if I like the idea and it makes me a little happier, then it's a good thing. Because when I die, if I find out there is an afterlife, then cool (unless one of the religions that say non-believers will go to hell are actually right. but I don't believe they are). And if it turns out there isn't one, I won't exist to care about being wrong. ;)

[Quasievil]

There advertising for truck drivers in Pakistan:niceone:

Bro, keep the dream alive, lets keep it alive:drool:

[Sanx]

I'm with Peasea. When you die, you become a sack of rapidly degenerating meat.

Which is something else my wife and I don't agree upon.

[pzkpfw]

Which is something else my wife and I don't agree upon.

Me too.

She says I'm degenerating now.

[rachprice]

Yeah im agnostic....think that there might be a higher power but dont necessarily believe in a particular god or heaven/hell etc.
I like the idea of an afterlife (it makes death a much less scary thing) but i just cant quite convince my scientific-orientated mind of it.
Its always interesting to see what other people/religions believe, I have just started doing a buddhism paper which is super interesting!

[NOMIS]

Says in the bible Death is final to.. cant remember the vs or book but its in the old testemant.

But Im a strong believer in my Christian faith.. I believe in Heaven and in Hell but you only have to accept Jesus and God before you die in order to get there as what Hitcher said " God gave us his only begotten son" He already forgave us for all of our sins. ( doesn't make it right to go around sinning and that )

But yeh Just how I see it. I'm not exactly perfect 2mins ago I just told Carver to shut the fuck up. All I can do is try my best

But - Heaven = yes hell = yes.

My views as asked

[peasea]

I haven't experienced anything that proves (or makes me believe) either way that an afterlife exists or doesn't exist. I'm agnostic.

However, I do like the idea that some sort of afterlife exists. And I figure if I like the idea and it makes me a little happier, then it's a good thing. Because when I die, if I find out there is an afterlife, then cool (unless one of the religions that say non-believers will go to hell are actually right. but I don't believe they are). And if it turns out there isn't one, I won't exist to care about being wrong. ;)

ummmm

What?

[inlinefour]

So I am sitting here, contemplating life in general and was wondering what are your beliefs about the here after??? I’m sorry if this offends anyone, I am not out to do that at all.

The reason for this thread … in the last 3 weeks I will have attended 4 funerals, and I don’t think that this will be the last in the near future but crossing fingers that it will be.

All had an effect on me in different ways, ages ranged from 45 to 70, none were really religious and I wondered, what do you think is out there?? And what brings you comfort? With the diversity of people on this site it got me wondering about what you all think….

Now I was brought up in a catholic family and know the basics from that religion…and I have my own non religious thoughts on what happens when you go, and some people that I have spoken to call me morbid as I don’t find death a taboo subject… actually I am probably the most organised if anything does happen to me, its all written down… just interested to see what people believe.

So help me out peeps, what are your thoughts/beliefs and please try to keep it on topic I genuinely want to know!

Thought I might do some haunting then come back as something else, just have not decided what. Maybe a hot chick with big boobs, a fine arse, hot looks, legs to die for, just so I can be a lesbian. :love:

[nallac]

#2 thou shalt do what ever thy fookin wants to do....

[fire eyes]

:calm:

(*takes a deep breath in & out .. 5 ..4..3..2..1 ..)

Now remember ... these are my beliefs .. I speak for no one but myself (obviously lol) .. I feel I am a woman who stands in her own right, makes up her own mind and who questions conditionings that are self limiting & restricting. I am not religeous at all .. but I am spiritual .. now .. let me clarify my definition of 'spiritual'. Spiritual, to me, is a natural state of being .. a natural awareness that we are more than just physical form .. that we have an energy/spirit/soul/life force within us that is connected to something more. It is a simplistic view point. It is MY definition that I have come to understand through living my life thus far, empathy, questioning old belief systems that were no longer serving me & turning inward .. seeking my own truth.

Yes I absolutely believe in the after life. Why? I FEEL .. yes FEEL .. that there are things we need to experience .. both those which are pre-destined and those that are not. For me .. the journey into the after life simply means that in pastlives we have fulfilled the learnings which were 'needed'. This can sometimes go a long way into placing some logic into why some people die young/old/before thier time/horrific or unexplained deaths .. for me .. there is no 'before your time' ... when you have done what is needed here in this lifetime, you move on.

I also believe the existance of heaven and hell is a state of mind. We have all experienced 'hell' at some point in our lifetime. We have all experienced heaven in our lifetime. To believe we are damned, sinful & undeserving of bliss is fear driven & unjust.

:hug: My thoughts.

[Sanx]

However, I do like the idea that some sort of afterlife exists. And I figure if I like the idea and it makes me a little happier, then it's a good thing. Because when I die, if I find out there is an afterlife, then cool (unless one of the religions that say non-believers will go to hell are actually right. but I don't believe they are). And if it turns out there isn't one, I won't exist to care about being wrong. ;)

The reverse of Pascale's wager. Nice theory though.

[jrandom]

deep breath... I feel... I am spiritual .. now .. let me clarify... more than just physical form... energy/spirit/soul... empathy... I FEEL .. yes FEEL...

You is a fruit loop, lady.

[nallac]

You is a fruit loop, lady.

well said.....

[fire eyes]

well said.....
:niceone:

Wow .. I have never been called a fruit loop before! twice even! Must be my night.

[erik]

The reverse of Pascale's wager. Nice theory though.
:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

I don't think I've read that before. It's not exactly the reverse, it's kind of just similar, except that I'm not arguing to believe, just that I might as well entertain the thought of some sort of spiritual existence/afterlife if it suits me.

I like the Calvin and Hobbs parody of Pascal's Wager (found the link on the wikipedia page):
http://picayune.uclick.com/comics/ch/1987/ch871223.gif

[Dave-]

it is my belief that the after life is a comfort reaction to help people (myself included) cope with the harsh realities of life and subsequently death.

death is absolute, when you die there is nothing, infact there's no nothing because you no longer have a concept of nothing, you no longer have a concept. anything.

[fireball]

i believe ill find out when i get there, as there is no way of knowing what is on the other side.

my whole purpose of life is to live with no regrets and experience everything that i want to, and when i die there will be someone to take my place and carry on.








when i get to the otherside i'll call JRandom and gloat about all the ladies:laugh:

[EJK]

You can buy/ reserve a place in heaven!
http://www.reserveaspotinheaven.com/

[Sanx]

You can buy/ reserve a place in heaven!
http://www.reserveaspotinheaven.com/

Thta's just class! But no-one ever lost money under-estimating the stupidity of the average American.

[ynot slow]

When a friend died,his partner was taken by her sister to buy a new black top for the funeral,she wasn't into the idea,her sister was a little pissed off over the time taken to suss out a top.The guys partner grabbed a top randomly,said this will do,turned out it was low cut and sexy,they both looked skywards and said (deceased)get it above the gutter.

And when my wife and myself visited the partner shortly after the funeral,we were walking to our car,the day was fine,after talking about things relating to the funeral and hassles getting casket into the home,the girls were hit with water spots,not me and I was beside them,they both thought fucken seagulls,but none were around,no one was hosing the garden or cars,really strange,as if he was saying I'm fine.

Do I believe in the afterlife?Was brought up believing in such things,so will sit on the fence.

[jrandom]

when i get to the otherside i'll call JRandom and gloat about all the ladies:laugh:

I could think of worse fates than being haunted by a lesbian ghost gloating about sex in the afterlife.

[Skyryder]

Death is but the door to another existance. To refuse to accept is to deny the obviouse. That there is a 'nothingness' for want of a better word, is not only illogical but science can not show such a state. All things are transformed, mutated, changed etc. This is the Bhuddist basis of reincarnation. It is the essence of life and death:change The body that you have now is not the one that you were born with. Every single cell is different. But there is more to life than mere cells. The one thing sets the animal kingdom above the plants is consciousness. We are 'aware' as are all those of the animal kingdom. It's the ‘degree’ of awareness that sets us apart.

To deny the fundamental truths of life and its complexity is to acknowledge that life and all its myiad of surroundings is but an accident. The complexity of cell division that produces an oak from an acorn to the geometry of planetary orbits nuclear fusion of stars and the laws of physics is proof of some kind of planning and by the very nature of planning a creator.

In our ignorance we worship and kill each other in the mistaken belief that 'our' religion is the right religion and all others are wrong but what we fail to see is what they all have in common, One God that is love, forgiveness and a belief in a better place than what we have at the moment. If only we could understand that we are all one species made up of multi coloured hues and not a culture or of a nation, we could all live in paradise. I do.




Skyryder

[Toaster]

I believe in taking action when challenged.

I believe in free will and freedom of choice and I believe that is what we all individually have.

I believe we are free to live our lives any way we wish. However we are not free from the consequences of those choices.

[Flatcap]

If only we could understand that we are all one species made up of multi coloured hues and not a culture or of a nation, we could all live in paradise. I do.


Where do you purchase your psychedelic pharmacuticals?

[scumdog]

Personally,

I don't believe there is an after life. When you die, you're conciousness ceases to exist and there is nothing more.

Not a too cheery way of looking at death but you can't expect to live forever in one plane of existance or another..

My thoughts too.

If there IS an 'afterlife? - I don't give a rats arse, I'm here to enjoy myself RIGHT NOW, not wait for some mythical 'afterlife'.

[MSTRS]

That there is a 'nothingness' for want of a better word, is not only illogical but science can not show such a state.

Nor can it show there isn't.
Let's face it...one has to 'go there' to find out, and no-one has ever come back with a full report including pictures.
We all find comfort (if you will) in what we believe and who are we to say to others that this or that is the case?
I live here and now, and when I go I've been good enough to enjoy the rewards of an afterlife, but bad enough to have no regrets if there isn't one.

[cowboyz]

You can buy/ reserve a place in heaven!
http://www.reserveaspotinheaven.com/

Is there a refund policy if you miss the flight?


Of course there is a higher power. She got up this morning and went to work and left me with the kids for the day.

[Headbanger]

You live, You die, You rot.

[cowboyz]

You live, You die, You rot.

well all going well it happens in that order.

[Number One]

:lol: been here before and can't be arsed going there again :rolleyes:

What I will say is that it astounds me how some posters seem to be almost rabid about their views being accepted as 'true and right' and anyone not agreeing gets ridiculed for not seeing 'sense'

...does it really matter what any of us think...personal choice is best owned in our thoughts and what anyone else 'thinks or knows' is almost irrelevant...whatever floats your boat I say.

[yod]

yeah

lets not discuss anything

shut down the forum i say

[Steam]

I must join the majority in saying there's nothing after death, we are just patterns of neurons and electrical signals in the brain that stop working when the body does.

I read somewhere that Kiwis are among the top five least religious countries in the world. The other ones were Norway and Sweden and Denmark I think.

[Number One]

yeah

lets not discuss anything

shut down the forum i say
:rolleyes:

All for discussion but some seem to think that discussion involves putting others down in order to add strength to their own 'argument'.

[Headbanger]

double post

[cowboyz]

:rolleyes:

All for discussion but some seem to think that discussion involves putting others down in order to add strength to their own 'argument'.

Putting together a convincing argument is ok.

There are too many in-consistancies to believe in god.

For instance, if something good happens, its gods will, if something bad happens, god works in mysterious ways

If you talk to god your sane, if he talks back your crazy.

You can take the most arbitory comment and say it is correct because God said so, I thought only mothers had reserved that right.

The whole idea that I am answerable to someone (thing) else is unacceptable to me. The whole idea that I should be grateful for shitty things that happen because I deserve to be tested doesnt sit well with me.

I will take my chances and be responsible for my own actions. If one day I do meet "the maker" then I will tell her (if god exists you know its a woman because a man would just come down and introduce himself, not sit up in heaven saying, you do whatever you want as long as it is what I want you to do but I am not telling you what to do but if you dont do what I want you to do then I will turn you into salt or something like that) everything she has been doing wrong and apply for the job.

[Number One]

Agree convincing reasoned arguments are good...and a good read often too. Nastiness and name calling are not.

BTW I don't believe in GOD

[fire eyes]

:rolleyes:

All for discussion but some seem to think that discussion involves putting others down in order to add strength to their own 'argument'.
Its all good durty .. :yes: .. I don't mind being called a fruit loop at all .. I still respect everyones opinions regardless of weather I agree with them or not .. its called freedom of expression & acceptence in many ways. The original post by Speedygirl was her just asking what peoples thoughts were about the subject. I guess some have gone a bit overboard but that can sometimes be good if the conversation expands into something meaningful eh. :love:

Good thing Im a balanced kinda person LOL. ok I lean over a little sometimes but generally balanced. :shit:

[Number One]

Its all good durty ..

Yeah if you aren't resilient you wouldn't bother posting on here at all :lol: my comment was more general than just referring to the responses to you

...this thread could probably go Scottish though :whistle:.

[NinjaNanna]

Have a think about this http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1643164&postcount=10282

[SixPackBack]

What we believe means jack shit in the bigger scheme of things. What we know and can prove should be the baseline for such discussion.

Google near death experiences. Several books have been written by neutral scientists and the results are surprising, many individuals speak of being beckoned or walking towards 'the light', a minority report a terrifying experience with monsters and suchlike.

Wish I could find a link to a fascinating documentary first aired in the late 90's. In essence multiple experiments concluded that upon death the human body becomes lighter by [from memory] a matter of ounces.

Guess this gives the jesus brigade ammunition for their collective delusions, but my own opinion is science has given us all we have and will solve the question of what happens to us when we die and that fact is often stranger than fiction,consequently I do not know and therefore have no opinion.

[Gubb]

Agree with Nagash here.

I'll be nothing more than worm food. Consciousness ends, just as it was before you were born (Reincarnation? pfffft. Not on my watch!) .

"Live in the now!" - Perhaps the greatest philosopher of our time. (Garth Algar)


Wish I could find a link to a fascinating documentary first aired in the late 90's. In essence multiple experiments concluded that upon death the human body becomes lighter by [from memory] a matter of ounces.
21 Grams (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0315733/). (This is the movie, not the aforementioned documentary)

[fire eyes]

Yeah if you aren't resilient you wouldn't bother posting on here at all :lol: my comment was more general than just referring to the responses to you

...this thread could probably go Scottish though :whistle:.
true! ... Iv learnt pretty quick smart resilience plays a big part in these forums! ... this thread makes for good reading though.

[rachprice]

What we believe means jack shit in the bigger scheme of things. What we know and can prove should be the baseline for such discussion.

Google near death experiences. Several books have been written by neutral scientists and the results are surprising, many individuals speak of being beckoned or walking towards 'the light', a minority report a terrifying experience with monsters and suchlike.

Wish I could find a link to a fascinating documentary first aired in the late 90's. In essence multiple experiments concluded that upon death the human body becomes lighter by [from memory] a matter of ounces.

Guess this gives the jesus brigade ammunition for their collective delusions, but my own opinion is science has given us all we have and will solve the question of what happens to us when we die and that fact is often stranger than fiction,consequently I do not know and therefore have no opinion.
Yeah I have come across that too. I think its 21 grams. Interesting topic the soul...

[jrandom]

does it really matter what any of us think...

Of course it does.

This is not a game.

Thoughts motivate actions.

Actions affect all humanity.

Actions motivated by thoughts that are not based on reason lead to very concrete problems.

Most of the world has spent the last half-millennium painfully and bloodily struggling up out of the darkness and into the light.

It behooves us to fight the shadow wherever it appears.

Belief without reason is the first step on a road to fear, hatred, oppression and slaughter. I will never fail to raise my voice in dissent against it.

[Mikkel]

I have trouble enough planning for next week - and fuck me if I'm even going to waste a single thought on retirement plans yet.

So where does that leave "the afterlife"?

[Number One]

Of course it does.

This is not a game.

Thoughts motivate actions.

Actions affect all humanity.

Actions motivated by thoughts that are not based on reason lead to very concrete problems.

Most of the world has spent the last half-millennium painfully and bloodily struggling up out of the darkness and into the light.

It behooves us to fight the shadow wherever it appears.

Belief without reason is the first step on a road to fear, hatred, oppression and slaughter. I will never fail to raise my voice in dissent against it.
You are over thinking my statement

[jrandom]

You are over thinking my statement

No, you are under thinking it.

[oldrider]

So I am sitting here, contemplating life in general and was wondering what are your beliefs about the here after??? I’m sorry if this offends anyone, I am not out to do that at all.

The reason for this thread … in the last 3 weeks I will have attended 4 funerals, and I don’t think that this will be the last in the near future but crossing fingers that it will be.

All had an effect on me in different ways, ages ranged from 45 to 70, none were really religious and I wondered, what do you think is out there?? And what brings you comfort? With the diversity of people on this site it got me wondering about what you all think….

Now I was brought up in a catholic family and know the basics from that religion…and I have my own non religious thoughts on what happens when you go, and some people that I have spoken to call me morbid as I don’t find death a taboo subject… actually I am probably the most organised if anything does happen to me, its all written down… just interested to see what people believe.

So help me out peeps, what are your thoughts/beliefs and please try to keep it on topic I genuinely want to know!

Do you think it would help you believe in the here after, if you really knew what I was here after? :shifty: (lol) John.

[Number One]

No, you are under thinking it.

:lol: unlike your user name that response was completely predictable. I see where you are coming from and I don't disagree however in this instance you are overthinking it

I should be clearer when I said 'you are overthinking my statement' you clearly didn't pick up on the subtlety of the statement that I was making...let me bold the bits I felt were key in this message...


it astounds me how some posters seem to be almost rabid about their views being accepted as 'true and right' and anyone not agreeing gets ridiculed for not seeing 'sense'

...does it really matter what any of us think...personal choice is best owned in our thoughts and what anyone else 'thinks or knows' is almost irrelevant

If I have to be blunt what I was saying was...who is anyone to judge someones elses opinion just because it doesn't match with theirs.

But I have taken your bait sir, which I know is your game :rolleyes: and I have other things to get on with so I say Good day :sunny:

[EJK]

Is there a refund policy if you miss the flight?


The flight will wait for you.
One way ticket to hell anybody? :devil2:

[MisterD]

Of course it does.

This is not a game.

Thoughts motivate actions.

Actions affect all humanity.

Actions motivated by thoughts that are not based on reason lead to very concrete problems.

Most of the world has spent the last half-millennium painfully and bloodily struggling up out of the darkness and into the light.

It behooves us to fight the shadow wherever it appears.

Belief without reason is the first step on a road to fear, hatred, oppression and slaughter. I will never fail to raise my voice in dissent against it.

Someone translate that into Yoda-speak...it's crying out for it.

[Max Headroom]

This is a big topic, one which will more than likely get moved to PD before long.....

As jrandom suggests, this isn't a game. Nobody Gets Out Alive.

Our "world view" (our take on life in general) is our internal guide. Regardless of how well defined or fuzzy it is, we all have some idea of how life should be for us as individuals, as members of society, and as part of a global community. We might not be able to define our values clearly let alone explain them to someone else, but those values are how we measure whether our own actions or those of another person's are acceptable or not, help us decide what we want out of life and how we're going to achieve those things. It encompasses our "outlook on life" and includes our moral code. As such, it also includes what happens to us when we die.

Ultimately we sift through our life experiences, relationships, media messages, books, movies, friends, enemies, and various other external influences and weigh up for ourselves what's important. We adopt our take on life after death according to how it fits with our world view.

None of us knows for sure what will happen to us when we die, because none of us has died and come back. (And I'm not trying to sound clever or cynical here.)

I'm rapidly approaching my 50th birthday in the next few years, so I suppose I've had plenty of time to reflect on this stuff. I've developed a view based on quite a bit of reading and personal observations. The position I've come to is that for me it would require more faith to believe in random chance/evolution theory than to believe in a Creator.

Unfortunately, these days admitting publicly that one is a Christian is a bit like admitting to an STD. There's so much crap that's been done in the name of God that He had nothing to do with. There's also the belief by many that those who claim to be Christian are insecure, unstable, weak, untrustworthy or deceived. Apparently we're just looking for a crutch because we can't handle reality. And unfortunately for some, that would be true. Equally there are many misconceptions about Christianity that the media enjoy expoiting, and clowns like Bishop Tamaki don't help one iota. I for one resent the media referring to Tamaki as though he's the national spokesman for all Christians in NZ. Many of us have had a bad experience with a particularly annoying religious freak ramming it down our throat, and obviously that experience affects or influences our view of religion. My personal experience suggests there's a gulf of difference between "religion" and "christianity".

So, who's right about God/life after death and who's wrong? And how would we know? And even if we did know, would we change our position? Heck, there's plenty of evidence to suggest smoking has no medical benefits and plenty of drawbacks but folk still do it......

See, we rationalise our position to suit our world view, and it often takes a personal crisis to challenge that view. So just because a belief is commonly held by the majority doesn't make it true or correct. It wasn't that many centuries ago that the generally held belief was that the earth was at the centre of our universe, and before that, it was that the earth was flat.

[Grub]

.... I heard it on the radio ....

Rowan Atkinson: “Devil Sketch”

Hello, nice to see you all again.
Now, as the more perceptive of you have probably realised by now, this is Hell, and I am the Devil. Good evening. You can call me Toby, if you like – we try and keep things informal here, as well as infernal. That’s just a little joke.

Now, you’re all here for eternity, which I hardly need tell you is a sod of a long time, so you get to know everyone pretty well by the end, but for now I’m going to have to split you up into groups. Are there any questions? Yes?

Um, no, I’m afraid we don’t have any toilets. If you’d read your Bible you would have seen that it was damnation without relief. So, if you didn’t go before you came then I’m afraid you’re not going to enjoy yourself very much … but then, I believe that’s the idea.

Right, let’s split you up then.
Can you all hear me still?
CAN YOU HEAR ME AT THE RACK?

All right, off we go …
Murderers, over here. Looters and pillagers – over there please, thieves if you could join them. Ah yes, Lawyers and bank managers … princes among thieves, you can join them as well thank you. Fornicators, if you could step forward – my God there are a lot of you. Could I split you up into adulterers and the rest? Adulterers if you could just form a line in front of that small guillotine there.

Okay …
Americans, are you here? Look, I’m sorry about this, apparently God had some fracas with your founding fathers and damned the entire race into perpetuity. He sends particular condolences to the Mormons who He realises put in a lot of work. That’s the way the wafer crumbles. The Iranians, I’m afraid, can’t be with us – someone’s been holding them in purgatory for about nine months. Seventh Day Adventists? Look I'm dreadfully sorry to tell you this but there's been a bit of a mixup. It wasn't the chosen 144,000 it was .144 thousand. Someone got thier decimals mixed up and you're from 145 and up.

Sodomites, over there against the wall.
Atheists! Atheists? Over here please. You must be feeling a right bunch of charlies. Okay, and Christians! Christians? Ah yes, I’m sorry, I’m afraid the Jews were right. Now, Moonies, maniacs, marmite eaters, male models, masochists, mass murderers and masseurs, if you could take a pew at the back - yes yes, there with the Methodists.

Now, where's that lot who used to kill whales? Ah, yes, I must remember - I’ve got some strips to tear off you bastards later. Everyone who saw Monty Python’s “Life of Brian” – I’m afraid He can’t take a joke after all. Firefighters? that should be all of them ... what on earth could you have been thinking!

Alright now, one final thing. We’re trying to implement some kind of exchange scheme with the Lord God Almighty, or Cliff as we know him. Some of you will travel up and have a decade in heaven and we’re having some angels down here. Now, I hardly need tell you that in heaven you will be expected to behave in an exemplary manner, so I hope you will do the exact opposite – tear off their wings, use their haloes for frisbee practice, that sort of thing.

Well, I have to go now unfortunately, but Beelzebub here will show you the ropes ... and the chains, and electrodes.

I’d just like to leave you with a favourite joke of mine, if I may. Quite apt to the circumstances, I think, which goes something like:
“Knock, knock.
Who’s there?
Death.
Death wh…”

[1 Free Man]

:msn-wink:Yes I believe in the after life and reincarnation.
When I come back I'm going to be a girls bike seat:rolleyes:

[Sully60]

:msn-wink:Yes I believe in the after life and reincarnation.
When I come back I'm going to be a girls bike seat:rolleyes:

Be careful what (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=99519&d=1215079973) you wish for!

[1 Free Man]

This is a big topic, one which will more than likely get moved to PD before long.....

As jrandom suggests, this isn't a game. Nobody Gets Out Alive.

Our "world view" (our take on life in general) is our internal guide. Regardless of how well defined or fuzzy it is, we all have some idea of how life should be for us as individuals, as members of society, and as part of a global community. We might not be able to define our values clearly let alone explain them to someone else, but those values are how we measure whether our own actions or those of another person's are acceptable or not, help us decide what we want out of life and how we're going to achieve those things. It encompasses our "outlook on life" and includes our moral code. As such, it also includes what happens to us when we die.

Ultimately we sift through our life experiences, relationships, media messages, books, movies, friends, enemies, and various other external influences and weigh up for ourselves what's important. We adopt our take on life after death according to how it fits with our world view.

None of us knows for sure what will happen to us when we die, because none of us has died and come back. (And I'm not trying to sound clever or cynical here.)

I'm rapidly approaching my 50th birthday in the next few years, so I suppose I've had plenty of time to reflect on this stuff. I've developed a view based on quite a bit of reading and personal observations. The position I've come to is that for me it would require more faith to believe in random chance/evolution theory than to believe in a Creator.

Unfortunately, these days admitting publicly that one is a Christian is a bit like admitting to an STD. There's so much crap that's been done in the name of God that He had nothing to do with. There's also the belief by many that those who claim to be Christian are insecure, unstable, weak, untrustworthy or deceived. Apparently we're just looking for a crutch because we can't handle reality. And unfortunately for some, that would be true. Equally there are many misconceptions about Christianity that the media enjoy expoiting, and clowns like Bishop Tamaki don't help one iota. I for one resent the media referring to Tamaki as though he's the national spokesman for all Christians in NZ. Many of us have had a bad experience with a particularly annoying religious freak ramming it down our throat, and obviously that experience affects or influences our view of religion. My personal experience suggests there's a gulf of difference between "religion" and "christianity".

So, who's right about God/life after death and who's wrong? And how would we know? And even if we did know, would we change our position? Heck, there's plenty of evidence to suggest smoking has no medical benefits and plenty of drawbacks but folk still do it......

See, we rationalise our position to suit our world view, and it often takes a personal crisis to challenge that view. So just because a belief is commonly held by the majority doesn't make it true or correct. It wasn't that many centuries ago that the generally held belief was that the earth was at the centre of our universe, and before that, it was that the earth was flat.
:doh:Too deep Max!!! I'm coming up to 55 going on 30 next month.
When ya number comes up you take your ticket and go. No drama! Here one minute gone the next. That's how my Dad went and I hope to follow in his footsteps in that regard.
The other option is how my older brother went with cancer of the apendix. 1 in 15,000,000 chance of getting that. Long slow death over 7 years. Eaten away from the inside. If any one out there has been and come back please start a thread to let us all know what lies beyond.:sleep:

[Grub]

Be careful what (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=99519&d=1215079973) you wish for!

On the other (http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h156/theonlydanielo/babes%20on%20bikes/bicycle_race_large.jpg) hand....

[Grub]

If any one out there has been and come back please start a thread to let us all know what lies beyond.

Yes, please post it in http ://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/Forums/Meetings_and_Events/The Ride_Tour Report

[1 Free Man]

Be careful what (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=99519&d=1215079973) you wish for!
WHOA FUCK That's scary ain't it. Might have to rethink on that. Might be better being worm fodder LOL

[1 Free Man]

On the other (http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h156/theonlydanielo/babes%20on%20bikes/bicycle_race_large.jpg) hand....
See I told you that there could be a good life after death. Now ya got me wanting to go early:2thumbsup

[Forest]

I believe that when a person dies, their mental existence ceases and there is no afterlife.

However I also believe that the decisions and actions we make during our lifetimes have a profound influence on the people around us, and that this is a part of us that will live on after we die.

[Quasievil]

Fuck what shall I have for tea tonight

[enigma51]

Wait till edbear gets hold of this thread!

[Oakie]

I don't believe in an afterlife myself ... however ... the place I work at is founded on a philosophy that believes in reincarnation and that the soul is on a journey which involves many reincarnations. Not so much an afterlife but many lives. Fortunately those of us who don't follow the philosophy don't have to pretend we do. It is enough to understand the philosophy.

[Sanx]

I don't believe in an afterlife myself ... however ... the place I work at is founded on a philosophy that believes in reincarnation and that the soul is on a journey which involves many reincarnations. Not so much an afterlife but many lives. Fortunately those of us who don't follow the philosophy don't have to pretend we do. It is enough to understand the philosophy.

Well my wife has decided that in her next life, she wants to come back as a higher species.

So she's going to come back as one of our cats. Life of absolute luxury, no work, no taxes, no stress.

I think she might be right.

[SixPackBack]

Yeah I have come across that too. I think its 21 grams. Interesting topic the soul...

The soul?........look at the issue in isolation. 21 grams is unaccounted for at death, exactly what is contained within that 21 is unknown.

[Trudes]

I haven't experienced anything that proves (or makes me believe) either way that an afterlife exists or doesn't exist.

However, I do like the idea that some sort of afterlife exists. And I figure if I like the idea and it makes me a little happier, then it's a good thing. Because when I die, if I find out there is an afterlife, then cool (unless one of the religions that say non-believers will go to hell are actually right. but I don't believe they are). And if it turns out there isn't one, I won't exist to care about being wrong. ;)

Exactly how I look at it too. It gives me comfort and that's the main thing.:bye:

[rachprice]

Im pretty sure that the people who did they whole 21 gram thing explained it as the weight of the soul but who knows....I meant its interesting in the way its very debatable that we have one.
You release a lot of bodily fluids when you die
Though I doubt that it would amount to exactly 21 grams between people

[RantyDave]

admitting publicly that one is a Christian is a bit like admitting to an STD.
Oh, please. Nobody deliberately contracts an STD. Nobody spends Sunday singing about how cool STD's are and absolutely nobody is under the impression that are in any way a superior being due to their having crabs.

The afterlife? (says he, wandering back on topic) ... remember what it was like before you were born? Exactly. We, as bikers, should attempt to bear this in mind on a day to day basis IMHO. You may never exit the next corner. Seriously.

Dave

[ElCoyote]

:niceone:

Wow .. I have never been called a fruit loop before! twice even! Must be my night.

Make it 3, you're on a roll

[rottiguy]

I believe in religion and an afterlife as much as I believe in any other fantasy or science fiction story. There just simply is no evidence what so ever. People are free to believe what ever they like but the ones who try to convince others piss me off. you can not convince anyone of a belief and no amount of saying "well it says in this book, blah blah" is proof of anything.

BUT if you believe in something that makes you happy and "tells" you to not go around killing people or being a shit head, that is all good. Doesn't make yourbelief any more important than anyone else's. So just be happy with your own thoughts and don't try to push them on anyone else.

Although the law of thermodynamics comes to mind, " energy is neither created nor destroyed but merely converted into another form" and we have electrical energy in our bodies but I believe when we die that leaks away to earth, maybe it ionizes the air and buzzes around the place ( there that should give a glimmer of hope to the "soul" crew :) )

[Swoop]

Someone translate that into Yoda-speak...it's crying out for it.
"Do, or do not, there is no try".
Will that do for now?

[rottiguy]

mmm "belief foolish without reason it is"
can't work out how to spell in yodas voice :)


Someone translate that into Yoda-speak...it's crying out for it.

[fire eyes]

Make it 3, you're on a roll
:cool: it can only get better.

[Shadows]

:msn-wink:Yes I believe in the after life and reincarnation.
When I come back I'm going to be a girls bike seat:rolleyes:

Having to put up with that sweaty fishiness being smeared all over you day after day and and not having any appendage available to plug it up?

Sounds like hell to me, mate!

[oldrider]

Having to put up with that sweaty fishiness being smeared all over you day after day and and not having any appendage available to plug it up?

Sounds like hell to me, mate!

There's only two things that smell like fish and fish is one of them! :yes: John.

[candor]

In times of grief I can and will strongly believe in an afterlife as it is my deepest wish to see them again. This desire fades with the grief which fades with the memories - the memories you add to your grief with by struggling to cling to.

I believe in a limited afterlife in that it may take some spirits a while to dissolve in which time contact may be made - or even some of their personal essence may be absorbed by others if the world still needs it - their future influence.

For myself I'd hope for afterlife merely so as to be with loved ones again. But I think it prolly does not exist if being perfectly rational. Not in the way of continuing as a personal entity. I think it exists in that your life energy is added back into the pool like compost for recycling. An afterlife exists in legacies good or bad.

It would be beter if noone believed in afterlife for the sake of a better society. People would realise that if heaven or punishment does not come later they'd best get on and live spiritually and create a heaven on earth.

This isn't my original theory but really aligns with the jist of gnostic christian scriptures such as dead sea scrolls, and probably aligns best with my core belief system. So my answer is both yes and no and within gnostic belief that is no contradiction. All things can be reconciled.

[DMNTD]

What happens? Dunno...don't care either as I'm too busy living the now and near future.
I mean why burden one's self with "maybes"?
Life's short...have fun...remove any stresses(if at all possible) and own and thrash as many bikes as possible!

[1 Free Man]

Well my wife has decided that in her next life, she wants to come back as a higher species.

She's a woman aint she? I though they were the higher species??

[avgas]

I fear death, not because of what i do not know what happens next, but purely because i know that death means that i can no longer complete my goals alive.
However with that said (it is what i believe), i also believe in second chances - so the next obvious thing i know is reincarnation.
Don't ask me what type of reincarnation - i haven't got that far yet.

[cowboyz]

its a panda. trust me on this one. Ive seen it on tv.

[avgas]

its a panda. trust me on this one. Ive seen it on tv.
Well fuck dying if you only get shit beer

[Ixion]

I ain't coming back as no panda. Their sex life stinks.

[James Deuce]

Life really is shit and then you die. The part of the world you are born in literally determines just how much of a shit farmer you'll have to be and for how long. Which really means the more shit the shorter and more brutal the life.

The measure of a life lived well is whether or not you made it less shit for anyone else, not how many brownie points you racked up with your imaginary friend.

[rottiguy]

Yep that is exactly how religion gets a foothold on people, when they are at their most vulnerable and asking "why has this happened" in swings some god botherer and says it's all in gods plan and don't worry cause they are in a better place, twat twat etc... and people grasping at straws think well maybe there is something else cause it just can't be all over when you die....Just wishfull thinking I'm afraid.

one of the ways that religions manage to capture the poor down-trodden vote, they tell them not to worry cause even though your life is complete shit now, when you die it will be all better and you will have everything you want.

In times of grief I can and will strongly believe in an afterlife as it is my deepest wish to see them again. This desire fades with the grief which fades with the memories - the memories you add to your grief with by struggling to cling to.





It would be beter if noone believed in afterlife for the sake of a better society. People would realise that if heaven or punishment does not come later they'd best get on and live spiritually and create a heaven on earth.



This isn't my original theory but really aligns with the jist of gnostic christian scriptures such as dead sea scrolls, and probably aligns best with my core belief system. So my answer is both yes and no and within gnostic belief that is no contradiction. All things can be reconciled.

[oldrider]

Prior to my conception I knew not of life.(or anything else for that matter)

The opportunities that life has presented have been phenomenal and in the main, extremely enjoyable!

I know a little "about" death but nothing "of" death and accept only that it is inevitable and unavoidable.

Comparatively, I do sometimes wonder just what opportunities death may present but as with conception, I simply prefer to be surprised.

For now, I shall continue to enjoy the certain known fruits of life, rather than waste my time trying to second guess the next great unknown, the fruits of death!

One of the great "fruits" of life for me, is to ride my bike! :ride::blip: Cheers, John.

[sinfull]

Think life and don't dwell on the lost, (cellibrate their life, then move on) you may live long enough to see science prove one way or the other !
Focus on the ditch and you may well find yourself there !

[Edbear]

Wait till edbear gets hold of this thread!

Who, Moi..?


Yeah if you aren't resilient you wouldn't bother posting on here at all :lol: my comment was more general than just referring to the responses to you

...this thread could probably go Scottish though :whistle:.

I'm rather surprised it hasn't...


Thought I might do some haunting then come back as something else, just have not decided what. Maybe a hot chick with big boobs, a fine arse, hot looks, legs to die for, just so I can be a lesbian. :love:

My issue here, is that it's that something important is missing - a small important thing, I kinda like being male....

[fire eyes]

;).. I don't believe anyone is faulting the 'live in the here and now' I completely agree that energy is beneficial channelled into in expanding our potential ... its just an open discussion about our thoughts about the 'after life' and its relevence there of, I have read some great posts in here .. and have even considered a few other possibilities through these posts that I did not before .. and I am very happy to admit that .. so awesome .. and much appreciation for that .. as for the fruit loop references ... it could have been worse! so big hugs for that to .. :hug:

[peasea]

I ain't coming back as no panda. Their sex life stinks.

Perhaps they should bathe more often?

[peasea]

She's a woman aint she? I though they were the higher species??

OMG another drug addict.

[sels1]

Although the law of thermodynamics comes to mind, " energy is neither created nor destroyed but merely converted into another form" and we have electrical energy in our bodies but I believe when we die that leaks away to earth, maybe it ionizes the air and buzzes around the place ( there that should give a glimmer of hope to the "soul" crew :) )
I remember that as the Law of Conservation of Energy....4th form science I think..(too long ago)
Certainly the phsysical body decomposes and rots after death- we have seen the bones, but that bit of energy does, as you say, give some hope to the "soul crew',as you put it.
Could that be the soul/spirit/atman/etc that every religion refers to and every language has a word for in every culture since the dawn of time???
Christians say the soul goes to Heaven or Hell....depending on your deeds
The Buddists and the Hindus (a fair slice of the worlds population) believe in reincarnation, spending life after life learning and evolving, and suffering for misdeeds according to the Law of Karma.
"Death is inevitable for the living, birth is inevitable for the dead" it says in the 5000yr old Bhagavad Gita. Ancient wisdom or old rubbish??
I guess most of us will only find out when we kick the bucket.

But ponder this...to say something dosent exist, when you have absolutely no proof, scientific or otherwise, is an agument based on an absence of knowledge.
I prefer to keep an open mind.......:)

[sinfull]

Agree convincing reasoned arguments are good...and a good read often too. Nastiness and name calling are not.

BTW I don't believe in GOD


I remember that as the Law of Conservation of Energy....4th form science I think..(too long ago)
Certainly the phsysical body decomposes and rots after death- we have seen the bones, but that bit of energy does, as you say, give some hope to the "soul crew',as you put it.
Could that be the soul/spirit/atman/etc that every religion refers to and every language has a word for in every culture since the dawn of time???
Christians say the soul goes to Heaven or Hell....depending on your deeds
The Buddists and the Hindus (a fair slice of the worlds population) believe in reincarnation, spending life after life learning and evolving, and suffering for misdeeds according to the Law of Karma.
"Death is inevitable for the living, birth is inevitable for the dead" it says in the 5000yr old Bhagavad Gita. Ancient wisdom or old rubbish??
I guess most of us will only find out when we kick the bucket.

But ponder this...to say something dosent exist, when you have absolutely no proof, scientific or otherwise, is an agument based on an absence of knowledge.
I prefer to keep an open mind.......:)

I believe .... I will die !
I believe .... I have wasted too much time doing nothing !
I believe .... I will die with an open mind, but I will die none the less !
I believe .... I will make the most of what time i have left !
I believe .... I need no crutch !
I believe .... I will die before needing crutches !
I believe .... I know many who are afraid to die and will never trully live !
I believe .... I have 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours till i feel alive again !

[ynot slow]

Motto-live every day as if it is your last.
Sounds corny,but when your surgeon says after surgery,mate if you left that another month or so,you would be dead by xmas,this was in September,so good reminder of your mortality.4 1/2 years on woohoo.

[Marmoot]

Humans are so arrogant thinking that they have the best intellect and can explain/prove any theories or otherwise the theories do not hold true.

In reality, the odds of human understanding divine issues most likely to just be as big the odds of a particular ant deep in African jungle understanding grammatically-correct English language.

He may not believe in the existence of human beings, let alone one that speaks English, but that does not make humans non-existent. And when the two get to meet, good luck trying to appeal to the human and not get squashed.

Disbelieving something does not make it disappear, as much as believing something may not make something appear either.
But in the end, if there is God, I probably have a better chance of a million years of happiness than you.

Perhaps, religion is something of an insurance.

[Marmoot]

on the lighter side, my friend is a dyslexic and he always wonder whether there is a Dog

[vifferman]

I'm not telling you what I believe.

[rottiguy]

True, of course conversely to say something does exist despite any evidence, is also folly. I do have an open mind which is something people who have a belief can not have, and even if there is evidence which disproves their belief they can simply say that it is not true. Hence most people search for things which "prove" their beliefs instead of gathering all the information and deciding from there. Even more difficult to do if you have had a belief instilled in you as a child from your parents who have exposed you to their way of thinking from the day you were born. It takes a very strong personality to buck the trend and make an objective decision without being "tainted" by your upbringing.
Having had a non religious upbringing I can look at all the religions and assess them without any prior "colouring" to my glasses :) Although in saying that I may have been somewhat tainted by having a scientific upbringing which tends to make me want to be able to test out any hypothesis and perhaps I am a bit of a cynic where I can not just accept something because someone says that is the case.







But ponder this...to say something dosent exist, when you have absolutely no proof, scientific or otherwise, is an agument based on an absence of knowledge.
I prefer to keep an open mind.......:)[/QUOTE]

[rottiguy]

Insurance yes perhaps, I just don't like the premiums :)



Humans are so arrogant thinking that they have the best intellect and can explain/prove any theories or otherwise the theories do not hold true.

In reality, the odds of human understanding divine issues most likely to just be as big the odds of a particular ant deep in African jungle understanding grammatically-correct English language.

He may not believe in the existence of human beings, let alone one that speaks English, but that does not make humans non-existent. And when the two get to meet, good luck trying to appeal to the human and not get squashed.

Disbelieving something does not make it disappear, as much as believing something may not make something appear either.
But in the end, if there is God, I probably have a better chance of a million years of happiness than you.

Perhaps, religion is something of an insurance.

[Nagash]

Woo, a repost of Religious ravings without being required to read through 694 pages.

[Racey Rider]

....
Christians say the soul goes to Heaven or Hell....depending on your deeds
....

Slight Correction: Doesn't depend on good works or deeds.
Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works....

[Ixion]

I'm not telling you what I believe.

That's OK I'm not believing what you tell me.

[rottiguy]

haha that is exactly what I was going to post :) or I'm not believing what I tell you


That's OK I'm not believing what you tell me.

[Gareth51]

putting together a convincing argument is ok.

There are too many in-consistancies to believe in god.

For instance, if something good happens, its gods will, if something bad happens, god works in mysterious ways

if you talk to god your sane, if he talks back your crazy.

You can take the most arbitory comment and say it is correct because god said so, i thought only mothers had reserved that right.

The whole idea that i am answerable to someone (thing) else is unacceptable to me. The whole idea that i should be grateful for shitty things that happen because i deserve to be tested doesnt sit well with me.

I will take my chances and be responsible for my own actions. If one day i do meet "the maker" then i will tell her (if god exists you know its a woman because a man would just come down and introduce himself, not sit up in heaven saying, you do whatever you want as long as it is what i want you to do but i am not telling you what to do but if you dont do what i want you to do then i will turn you into salt or something like that) everything she has been doing wrong and apply for the job.



well said my freind

[rottiguy]

yes there is a dog, and here he is


on the lighter side, my friend is a dyslexic and he always wonder whether there is a Dog

[Marmoot]

Insurance yes perhaps, I just don't like the premiums :)

As with insurance, better hope you don't screw up then....like, by dying?

:innocent:

[Marmoot]

One thing I can't stand is when someone of different religion trying to preach to me and convince me of what they belief is true...

Another one that's just as bad is also when an atheist trying to preach to me and convince me of what they belief is true...

Those atheists, jehovah's witness, jihadists and some christians can be as bad as each other at times :Pokey:

[Sanx]

Humans are so arrogant thinking that they have the best intellect and can explain/prove any theories or otherwise the theories do not hold true.

There's another species that does better? Humans in general are not arrogant; they're inquisitive. People like to understand how things work: from the way chemicals in the body interact to how the seasons affect nature to the meaning of life. To question is not to criticise (though religion in general does not appreciate either).


In reality, the odds of human understanding divine issues most likely to just be as big the odds of a particular ant deep in African jungle understanding grammatically-correct English language.

You're analogy fails on the simple assumption that there is a 'divine' for it to have issues. The question is much more fundamental than that.


He may not believe in the existence of human beings, let alone one that speaks English, but that does not make humans non-existent. And when the two get to meet, good luck trying to appeal to the human and not get squashed.

He? Who is 'he'? If it's the god you believe in, then - provided you also believe that god created man in his image, god must be remarkably stupid or remarkably forgetful for him to not believe in his greatest creation.

And again, you've assumed too much by saying 'when they get to meet'. 'If' would be more accurate as it does not assume there is a god.


Disbelieving something does not make it disappear, as much as believing something may not make something appear either.

Throughout the ages, humans have attributed that which they cannot understand or explain to higher powers, usually deities. Not so long ago in evolutionary terms, humans prayed that the sun would rise every morning and light would return, and prayed that the seasons would appear in the right order. Humans attributed almost all natural events, from the passing of the tides to thunder storms to earthquakes on a selection of deities. But thanks to humans' inquisitive nature and their desire to understand, we now know that the tides are caused by the gravitational pull of the moon, thunderstorms are caused by a build up of static electricity caused by excited water molecules bumping against each other and that earthqakes are caused by tectonic plates moving against each other.

Any true scientist will admit that there are things they don't know about how the universe works. For some reason, there also seems to be a primal desire amongst some to attribute that that is not known to some higher power, rather than simply just accepting there are things that are unknown. But science also teaches us to look for proof and despite many many many years of looking, no-one's ever come up with any evidence (that stands up to the most basic elementary examination) that any form of higher power exists. The absence of proof cannot be taken as proof of non-existence - to do so is a logical impossibility - but the chances of a higher power existing lessen with each new scientific advancement.


But in the end, if there is God, I probably have a better chance of a million years of happiness than you.

Perhaps, religion is something of an insurance.

Pascale's Wager, then...


If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is...

..."God is, or He is not." But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up. What will you wager? According to reason, you can do neither the one thing nor the other; according to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.


Do not, then, reprove for error those who have made a choice; for you know nothing about it. "No, but I blame them for having made, not this choice, but a choice; for again both he who chooses heads and he who chooses tails are equally at fault, they are both in the wrong. The true course is not to wager at all."


Yes; but you must wager. It is not optional. You are embarked. Which will you choose then? Let us see. Since you must choose, let us see which interests you least. You have two things to lose, the true and the good; and two things to stake, your reason and your will, your knowledge and your happiness; and your nature has two things to shun, error and misery. Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose. This is one point settled. But your happiness? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is.


"That is very fine. Yes, I must wager; but I may perhaps wager too much." Let us see. Since there is an equal risk of gain and of loss, if you had only to gain two lives, instead of one, you might still wager. But if there were three lives to gain, you would have to play (since you are under the necessity of playing), and you would be imprudent, when you are forced to play, not to chance your life to gain three at a game where there is an equal risk of loss and gain. But there is an eternity of life and happiness. And this being so, if there were an infinity of chances, of which one only would be for you, you would still be right in wagering one to win two, and you would act stupidly, being obliged to play, by refusing to stake one life against three at a game in which out of an infinity of chances there is one for you, if there were an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain. But there is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite.

Stating a belief in a god is a form of insurance is nothing new, since Pascale proposed his wager sometime in the last five years of his life - between 1657 and 1662. Imam al-Haramayn al-Juwayni (who died in about 1080) also gave a similar argument. But Pascale's wager was not intended to be an encouragement to believe, but rather an indication of what happens when reason and logic cannot be trusted. He starts with the premise that if there is a god, he is sufficiently different from us as to be incomprehensible. (God works in mysterious ways.) His wager assumes a number of stock Judeo-Christian (specifically, Catholic) beliefs: that there is only one god or that if there is more than one, you've picked the 'right' one to believe in; or that upon death, one enters an afterlife where one spends all eternity; and that one must decide between faith and atheism as agnosticism is not an option. It should also be noted that Pascale does entertain the notion of a hell; the eternal life he mentions is only for believers. Punishment of those who don't believe is death or limbo, not an eternity of torment.

Richard Dawkins suggests that Pascale's wager also does not contend with the notion that a god would reward honest attempts at reason and instead punishes blind faith. This argument was further expanded by Richard Carrier thus:


Suppose there is a God who is watching us and choosing which souls of the deceased to bring to heaven, and this god really does want only the morally good to populate heaven. He will probably select from only those who made a significant and responsible effort to discover the truth. For all others are untrustworthy, being cognitively or morally inferior, or both. They will also be less likely ever to discover and commit to true beliefs about right and wrong. That is, if they have a significant and trustworthy concern for doing right and avoiding wrong, it follows necessarily that they must have a significant and trustworthy concern for knowing right and wrong. Since this knowledge requires knowledge about many fundamental facts of the universe (such as whether there is a god), it follows necessarily that such people must have a significant and trustworthy concern for always seeking out, testing, and confirming that their beliefs about such things are probably correct. Therefore, only such people can be sufficiently moral and trustworthy to deserve a place in heaven — unless god wishes to fill heaven with the morally lazy, irresponsible, or untrustworthy.

Pascale himself did specifically state, however, that application of his wager rests on the premise that 'honest attempted reason' about god's existence is impossible.

Other subtleties exist too. Should belief in the wrong god be punished by a vengeful god (as the god of the old testament most certain is), it can be argued that belief in Christ, Allah or Jehova - given that they're all derived from the god of Abraham - are all mutually acceptable. Apologists of the wager have also stated that only belief in another god that awarded a heaven-like state of eternal life create a problem, so that the finite afterlife or semi-blissful promise offered by Kali or Odin drop out of consideration.

And then there's the biggest assumption Pascale makes; that the one loses nothing if they believe in god during their lifetime. I'd argue that by believing and following the particular religion's rules, one loses the very essence of humanity - the ability to come to your own decisions and exercise free will; ironically, the very thing that is often described as god's greatest gift to mankind.

[avgas]

Imagine theres no heaven,
its easy if you try,
no hell below us,
above us only sky........

[avgas]

There's another species that does better? Humans in general are not arrogant; they're inquisitive. People like to understand how things work: from the way chemicals in the body interact to how the seasons affect nature to the meaning of life. To question is not to criticise (though religion in general does not appreciate either).
Sadly part of Marmoot says is true.
Learning how the universe fits together Man has "created" solutions to make the puzzle pieces fit.
Universal Global Constant i found was the most confusing of the lot to get my head around.........its like they had the answer, the question - but couldn't join the 2.

[Lissa]

I myself am not sure if there is a god or even a heaven so I must be agnostic? There are some things that have happened in my life that I believe that someone/something was looking out for me in some way. I also believe that god doesnt make things happen, we do, we make the choices in the way we live.

My nine year old doesnt believe in god, ever since he fell over and hurt his leg, he said if there was a god then he wouldnt have made him fall over :shutup: I tried to make him understand that God doesnt generally work in that way. What makes me sad is he also believes that when we die, thats it, we no longer exist and we have no soul.

My seven year old though believes that we get reincarnated, and when she does I have to still be her mum, but she wants blue eyes instead of brown. When I told her she might just come back as a boy, she got a weee bit upset. But my daughter doesnt like the thought of dieing, or anyone she knows dieing, so reincarnation makes her feel better about things.

I want my kids to grow up with an open mind, and whatever they believe in is ok, even if I dont believe in it myself.

[Sanx]

I myself am not sure if there is a god or even a heaven so I must be agnostic?

Nope - you're a sceptic. You haven't made up your mind one way or the other. An agnostic is, essentially, someone that accepts that it is impossible to prove the existence or non-existence of a god. There have been a number of types of agnostic further defined; a good list of them can be found here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism). (The best of them - in my opinion - is the apathetic or pragmatic agnostic who holds the view that there is no proof of either the existence or nonexistence of God or gods, but since any God or gods that may exist appear unconcerned for the universe or the welfare of its inhabitants, the question is largely academic anyway.)


My nine year old doesnt believe in god, ever since he fell over and hurt his leg, he said if there was a god then he wouldnt have made him fall over :shutup: I tried to make him understand that God doesnt generally work in that way. What makes me sad is he also believes that when we die, thats it, we no longer exist and we have no soul.

Your nine year old has it sorted. He's applied rational thinking based upon the Judeo-Christian definition of a god - i.e. omnipotent, omniscient and benevolent - and tried to weigh that up with what has happened to him. In his view, that a benevolent and omnipotent god would not allow him to fall over and hurt himself, so therefore this god does not exist (or at the very least does not possess at least one of the three qualities Judeo-Christian dogma assigns him). Not many kids are capable of applying such logic at that early an age, especially given the supposed importance of such a decision.

Following the Boxing Day Tsunami in 2004, the BBC had a documentary where they asked a very similar question of leading clerics in the UK; Catholic, CofE, Muslim and Jewish. If god is benevolent and omniscient and omnipotent - something all three religions claim - how is it that god could let a natural disaster wipe out 300,000 people? The answers were quite funny to watch, if only to see the respondents babble incoherently before claiming, essentially, that god works in mysterious ways; the religious universal get-out clause.


I want my kids to grow up with an open mind, and whatever they believe in is ok, even if I dont believe in it myself.

Fantastic attitude. Shame more parents do not believe that and think that pushing their religious beliefs on their children is acceptable.

[Marmoot]

There's another species that does better? Humans in general are not arrogant; they're inquisitive.
Inquisitive refers to acknowledging there are things they do not know and yearn to learn about it.
Dismissing a hypothesis (in this case the existence of God) simply due to perception of no empirical evidence is an arrogance, not inquisitive nature. An inquisitive nature would motivate further reflection, study and/or discussion to pursue real knowledge.




You're analogy fails on the simple assumption that there is a 'divine' for it to have issues. The question is much more fundamental than that.
Not sure I understand what you mean, but it is irrelevant since you already assume there is no divine issues while I assume there is possibility of divine issues. Regardless what we discuss in this point it will not meet in the middle since unfortunately we are too polarized in the issue.


He? Who is 'he'?
The ant. Please read my post properly line by line.



And again, you've assumed too much by saying 'when they get to meet'. 'If' would be more accurate as it does not assume there is a god.
If, When, consequences, schmonsequences. Potatoe, potato.
I'm an immigrant and English is not my first language.



Throughout the ages, humans .....
Pascale's Wager, then...
.....
Stating a belief in ...

Too long, didn't read. My beliefs do not involve Pascale and I couldn't care less about what he believes. But great effort deserves a bling, so here you go.

[Marmoot]

Sadly part of Marmoot says is true.
Learning how the universe fits together Man has "created" solutions to make the puzzle pieces fit.
Universal Global Constant i found was the most confusing of the lot to get my head around.........its like they had the answer, the question - but couldn't join the 2.

What I don't comprehend is how can someone who sits around making crazy theories in mathematical equations that are vaguely right and only proves that x do not equal y (and does not seem to have any real world usage) gets huge sum of money while we who breaks our back on the rock gets little (and not to mention the tax! THE TAX!)

I might be able to smoke some ganja and make the same equations...

[avgas]

What I don't comprehend is how can someone who sits around making crazy theories in mathematical equations that are vaguely right and only proves that x do not equal y (and does not seem to have any real world usage) gets huge sum of money while we who breaks our back on the rock gets little (and not to mention the tax! THE TAX!)
Might be supprised to find out that the so called mathematicians of this world actually make f-all.
It is the decision makers, supposed leaders of this world that make the coin. I was fortunate enough to live by the shovel, learn by the pen - but i am shocked that the people on the highest places are not only the laziest, but the most stupid as well.
Take politicians for instance. I wouldn't let them run a dairy let alone the country. Yet look how much coin they rake in.

[Marmoot]

Take politicians for instance. I wouldn't let them run a dairy let alone the country. Yet look how much coin they rake in.

ooooo please don't get us started on this....

[fire eyes]

:msn-wink: I was just wondering ... if you took just a minute .. and quietened all the logic in your mind ... what that little inner voice or inner knowing would say if you asked it .. "is there an afterlife"

:niceone: Now that would be interesting

[Murray]

If theres "nothing" after death, isn't that something??? Therefore there is something. Bit like where does the universe end, it ends in nothing which is something!

[Number One]

If theres "nothing" after death, isn't that something??? Therefore there is something. Bit like where does the universe end, it ends in nothing which is something!
:lol:

This is the song that never ends.....it just goes on and on my friend...some people, started singing it not knowing what it was...and now they can't stop singing it forever just because this is the song that never ends.....This is the song that never ends.....it just goes on and on my friend...some people, started singing it not knowing what it was...and now they can't stop singing it forever just because this is the song that never ends.....

[mstriumph]

:msn-wink: I was just wondering ... if you took just a minute .. and quietened all the logic in your mind ... what that little inner voice or inner knowing would say if you asked it .. "is there an afterlife"

:niceone: Now that would be interesting

mine would say something like "who cares? today is good"

but mebbe that's just me ........