Demerit points remaining after licence suspensions - how it works [Archive]

jrandom

14th July 2008, 10:00

I've encountered some confusion on this subject, recently, so I thought I'd clarify this question once and for all for anyone who's interested.

I'm about to hand over my licence for three months after going over 100 points.

I received two new speeding tickets last weekend, and I wasn't sure whether paying them straight away would help anything. Naturally, I don't trust anything you bush-lawyer c00nts on the internet say, so I just rang LTNZ for a quick chat about how it all works.

The way the system goes is:

All demerit points recorded against your licence at the time it is taken from you are wiped when your licence is returned.

So, as recommended by the nice lady on the phone, I'll be paying both of those tickets this week before I hand over my licence to the licence collector man, and I'll have a zero-point licence back in my hands in October. If I paid the tickets after my licence was collected, the demerit points would be waiting for me when I got it back.

Good to know.

bungbung

14th July 2008, 10:13

As I understand, the points are recorded against your licence at the time of infringement (near enough). You cannot vary the date the points are applied by paying sooner or delaying payment.

pritch

14th July 2008, 10:20

I received two new speeding tickets last weekend,

Ummmmm have you considered obtaining a radar detector?

But condolences on the loss of licence meantime.

Mikkel

14th July 2008, 10:29

What happens if you get done for 41+ km/h above the limit while you are waiting for your license to be taken off your hands?

What if it's a 41+ km/h offense that will see you go above 100 demerits?

But yes, if you have exceeded 100 demerits and are waiting for your license to be taken off you, you have no excuse to observe the speed limits... :D

jrandom

14th July 2008, 10:29

You cannot vary the date the points are applied by paying sooner or delaying payment.

That is not strictly correct.

What you cannot vary is whether or not you receive a licence suspension for going over 100 points. Delaying payment of the tickets in such a situation only delays an inevitable back-dated check. If you commit more than 100 points worth of traffic offenses within two years, you will always get a licence suspension, end of story.

However, what I've described above in relation to what happens after a licence suspension does in fact constitute an exception to the apparent sensibleness of the system.

I triple-checked all this with the lady from LTNZ on the phone.

As you are no doubt aware, the points are recorded in the system when you pay the ticket, or after two months from the date of offense when the ticket is transferred to the courts for collection, whichever comes first.

Any points already recorded in the system against your licence when it's taken off you are wiped when it is returned. This is the one part of the system that works off the date the points are entered in the system rather than the date of the offense.

jrandom

14th July 2008, 10:31

What happens if you get done for 41+ km/h above the limit while you are waiting for your license to be taken off your hands?

What if it's a 41+ km/h offense that will see you go above 100 demerits?

Who knows. Probably a big mess. Fortunately I'm not dealing with anything involving a roadside licence suspension.

... if you have exceeded 100 demerits and are waiting for your license to be taken off you, you have no excuse to observe the speed limits.

Yes.

So long as you are still holding your licence and you stay within 40kph of the speed limit to avoid a roadside licence suspension, and so long as you pay any tickets you receive during that period before your licence is eventually taken off you, that is correct.

MSTRS

14th July 2008, 10:31

As I understand, the points are recorded against your licence at the time of infringement (near enough). You cannot vary the date the points are applied by paying sooner or delaying payment.

Ah - no. Points are recorded when you pay the fine.
Until then, you are assumed to be innocent and the offence is alleged. Payment confirms guilt. Or you take it to court. If dismissed, the points are gone. Otherwise...
However, I did think that the oldest demerits totalling +100ish were dropped off with a 3 month, but anything over that remained in force?

jrandom

14th July 2008, 10:33

Ummmmm have you considered obtaining a radar detector?

Yes (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=77413).

Betty will have a Beltronics STi on her when my licence is returned.

:niceone:

jrandom

14th July 2008, 10:36

I did think that the oldest demerits totalling +100ish were dropped off with a 3 month, but anything over that remained in force?

And that common misconception is why I posted this thread - LTNZ has just confirmed that you thought wrong.

So long as all outstanding tickets are paid up and recorded in the system by the time your licence is taken off you, you get it back with zero demerit points.

:first:

Mikkel

14th July 2008, 10:41

What you cannot vary is whether or not you receive a licence suspension for going over 100 points. Delaying payment of the tickets in such a situation only delays an inevitable back-dated check. If you commit more than 100 points worth of traffic offenses within two years, you will always get a licence suspension, end of story.

...

As you are no doubt aware, the points are recorded in the system when you pay the ticket, or after two months from the date of offense when the ticket is transferred to the courts for collection, whichever comes first.

Any points already recorded in the system against your licence when it's taken off you are wiped when it is returned. This is the one part of the system that works off the date the points are entered in the system rather than the date of the offense.

I had got the impression that this loophole had been patched recently to avoid people stalling the procedure and thus avoiding getting their license suspended.

I think that, now, the demerits are recorded as per the date on the ticket. I am however not 100% sure...

jrandom

14th July 2008, 10:49

I had got the impression that this loophole had been patched recently to avoid people stalling the procedure and thus avoiding getting their license suspended.

I think that, now, the demerits are recorded as per the date on the ticket. I am however not 100% sure...

The loophole that allowed people to avoid a suspension has been patched.

The 'loophole' that allows people to get their licence back with zero points on it even after incurring tickets beyond the first 100 points has not been patched.

Is that even a 'loophole', per se? It makes good sense to me; once someone exceeds a certain threshhold, set the system in motion, give him a three-month walking holiday to cool down and then let him back out onto the road with a clean slate.

Anyway, I queried the LTNZ lady in precisely these terms and she confirmed that this is indeed the case.

Right.

Is that clear?

If anyone else skim-reads this thread and adds another 'But I thought...' post, I swear I will track them down and give them the atomic wedgie from hell.

Mikkel

14th July 2008, 10:52

If anyone else skim-reads this thread and adds another 'But I thought...' post, I swear I will track them down and give them the atomic wedgie from hell.

But I thought you were such a friendly guy.

(See you in Chch - I'll buy the first round...)

Swoop

14th July 2008, 11:12

That is surprisingly good news. Very good news on your part!

The only concern is the office efficiency that makes sure your payment is registered, so the associated demerits are able to be wiped.

vifferman

14th July 2008, 11:49

Weren't "they" (i.e., the Goobermint) talking about amending things so that the points thing was date-related? That is, in your case, Mr jrandom, Sir, you would have got to keep the bonus points. Lucky for you (and great for everyone except the gnarsty bureaucrats) that that isn't the case then.

So... are you going to apply for a limited licence?

jrandom

14th July 2008, 12:16

The only concern is the office efficiency...

Indeed.

I shall be paying the tickets post-haste, and then getting on the phone daily until I can confirm that the points have indeed been fed to The Computer.

I shall then hand in my licence.

Y'know, at times like this, one might consider oneself fortunate to have recently moved house and to be quite absent-minded when it comes to such things as updating one's contact details.

:innocent:

Edit: Re. the limited licence, yes, I'll be getting one to cover picking my kids up from their mother on the weekends and ferrying them around. I don't anticipate any hassles with that. I shall contact the Police Prosecutor shortly to grease the necessary wheels.

Swoop

14th July 2008, 12:28

Y'know, at times like this, one might consider oneself fortunate to have recently moved house and to be quite absent-minded when it comes to such things as updating one's contact details.
Lucky you are near the cycleway into town...:buggerd:

Mountlocal1

14th July 2008, 15:58

On the subject of no license....

I drive for a living and am reaching the magical 100 marker point. Anyone know what a work license costs?? Im being a good boy with my 75points but it dont take much... Ive been told not indicating can cost you 25!:blink:

Tank

14th July 2008, 16:36

Mr Skid

14th July 2008, 22:53

Lucky you are near the cycleway into town...:buggerd:Mr Random will have to up his racing pie intake over the next three months if he wants to keep from wasting away. :banana:

jrandom

14th July 2008, 23:02

Mr Random will have to up his racing pie intake over the next three months if he wants to keep from wasting away.

I am, quite seriously, pondering a set of 'before' and 'after' photos taken alongside the Trek at either end of my licence suspension.

I would, of course, have to send large prints thereof to The Hon. Harry Duynhoven and the Editoral Departments of the New Zealand Herald and the Dominion Post, alongside, perhaps, a photograph of the very dirty interior of Betty's muffler.

The war against climate change starts now, at a pie shop near you!

jrandom

14th July 2008, 23:12

I drive for a living and am reaching the magical 100 marker point. Anyone know what a work license costs??

You need this link (http://www.communitylaw.org.nz/fileadmin/documents/a_guide_to_applying_for_a_limited_licence..pdf).

:niceone:

Owl

15th July 2008, 07:27

Cheers jrandom for clearing up some confusion!:niceone:

I certainly have nothing to add, as I wouldn't want to risk the "Atomic Wedgie".:lol:

TimeOut

15th July 2008, 07:37

However, I did think that the oldest demerits totalling +100ish were dropped off with a 3 month, but anything over that remained in force?

That is what they are proposing to bring in with the new law changes i.e.you only lose 100 points

sinfull

15th July 2008, 09:19

As I understand, the points are recorded against your licence at the time of infringement (near enough). You cannot vary the date the points are applied by paying sooner or delaying payment.
The points are back dated to the time of the offence WHEN the fine is paid or when it goes to court as JR said so trying to stall the payment till a few of your old points fall off dont work no more !

But yes, if you have exceeded 100 demerits and are waiting for your license to be taken off you, you have no excuse to observe the speed limits... :D
And wear yr seat belt in the car ! Was a checkpoint i got pinged !

And that common misconception is why I posted this thread - LTNZ has just confirmed that you thought wrong.

So long as all outstanding tickets are paid up and recorded in the system by the time your licence is taken off you, you get it back with zero demerit points.

:first:
The carrying on of points after the initial 100, is a law change that some are trying to bring in along with a 6 month loss of licence !
So if you get another two big tickets while waiting for them to collect it, you may well (in the future) lose it for 6 months and get it back with 60 or 70 points on !
Jesus !~!

Edit: Re. the limited licence, yes, I'll be getting one to cover picking my kids up from their mother on the weekends and ferrying them around. I don't anticipate any hassles with that. I shall contact the Police Prosecutor shortly to grease the necessary wheels.

On the subject of no license....

I drive for a living and am reaching the magical 100 marker point. Anyone know what a work license costs?? Im being a good boy with my 75points but it dont take much... Ive been told not indicating can cost you 25!:blink:

Be interested how ya get on with the limited licence JR !!
Last time i applied for one (dif circumstance) there was a 3 month stand down before i could apply ! Lucky i had an understanding boss as i was driving for a living !

I take it you gave the lovely lady at the ltsa your cell number ?
I did the same back in august last year and the gentleman from the collection agency kept ringing me (3 or 4 times over a couple of months) through summer, to see if i was home so he could come collect it lol ! Well hello, like i was gonna say yeah maaaate, lovely day to hand it in, come on over ! Eventually he told me he was gonna have to hand it back to ltsa !
Ltsa then of course flagged my licence number with the police, who in turn caught up with me 11 days ago at a checkpoint !
So i have gone from a six speed to a 24 speed ! WANNA RACE ???

jrandom

15th July 2008, 09:22

I take it you gave the lovely lady at the ltsa your cell number ?
I did the same back in august last year and the gentleman from the collection agency kept ringing me (3 or 4 times over a couple of months) through summer, to see if i was home so he could come collect it lol ! Well hello, like i was gonna say yeah maaaate, lovely day to hand it in, come on over !

Yeah, I gave her my number. Got no problem with the guy calling me. I'll go pay my two outstanding tickets this arvo and then make a time for him to take the licence as soon as I've confirmed that the points from them are on it.

I want to get this shit out of the way ASAP before summer!

Mikkel

15th July 2008, 09:23

And wear yr seat belt in the car ! Was a checkpoint i got pinged !

That's not a worry - I put on my seatbelt even if I'm just shifting the car around in the driveway. :rolleyes:

Not because of safety - it's just a reflex. The seatbelt comes on as I'm twisting the key in the ignition...

jrandom

15th July 2008, 09:27

i have gone from a six speed to a 24 speed ! WANNA RACE ???

And here's me about to go to a '20' speed. I feel inferior.

<img src="http://www.jejamescycles.com/reviews/images/trekMadone59.jpg"/>

:love:

I've missed pedalling my baby.

sinfull

15th July 2008, 09:34

And here's me about to go to a '20' speed. I feel inferior.

<img src="http://www.jejamescycles.com/reviews/images/trekMadone59.jpg"/>

:love:

I've missed pedalling my baby.

Wow check out your seat lol ! Words ducks arse springs to mind !
Mine has had mods as in the seat is twice as wide though the bruising on my arse is twice as wide

sinfull

15th July 2008, 09:36

That's not a worry - I put on my seatbelt even if I'm just shifting the car around in the driveway. :rolleyes:

Not because of safety - it's just a reflex. The seatbelt comes on as I'm twisting the key in the ignition...
Gettin a lesson on reflex these days myself ! Mrs wont twist the key till i have mine on !
Too many years in a truck have me forgetting to reach for it as 90% of the trucks i've driven dont have them !

Mikkel

15th July 2008, 09:41

Gettin a lesson on reflex these days myself ! Mrs wont twist the key till i have mine on !
Too many years in a truck have me forgetting to reach for it as 90% of the trucks i've driven dont have them !

That's a funny thing innit? I mean, if you hit something solid, a truck will still go from 100 km/h to zero in just about 2 meters - there are other things to hit on the road than just cars!

Storm

15th July 2008, 10:24

But a truck usually wins the physics battle by virtue of being several tons heavier and the resulting ploughing of most objects is the result

Mikkel

15th July 2008, 10:33

But a truck usually wins the physics battle by virtue of being several tons heavier and the resulting ploughing of most objects is the result

Not my point - if a truck hits a tree, the truck looses...

Same goes for:

-Large rocks
-Power poles
-Bridges
-Other trucks
-Tanks
-Churches
-etc (pretty much anything solid you could consider bolted down.)

sinfull

15th July 2008, 10:35

But a truck usually wins the physics battle by virtue of being several tons heavier and the resulting ploughing of most objects is the result
Yeah several like in usually 39 odd ! still like the old long nose rigs ! its like a ford or holden compared to a suzki swift !~ Always a nice feeling having that extra steel tween you and the grille !

Ahhhh lovely day ! I think i might go out riding today, but the *to wheres* are endless ! Shame i have 3 or 5 ks in each direction b4 i get to a, as the crow flies road to the beach ! Bloody dogs missing my licence more n i am (LIER !!!!!)

sinfull

15th July 2008, 10:37

Not my point - if a truck hits a tree, the truck looses...

Same goes for:

-Large rocks
-Power poles
-Bridges
-Other trucks
-Tanks
-Churches
-etc (pretty much anything solid you could consider bolted down.) Then add the 30 odd ton of physics still travelling at 90 k at the back of ya !

avgas

15th July 2008, 10:44

nice one - so it seems to me you can collect more than 100 points before they take the license off you. So when ever i go over 100 next i will try and set a record. i bet i could get 400 before they just plain arrest me.

FJRider

15th July 2008, 10:50

I think when you get a ticket, they check your demerit point status. Arrest may be sooner than you would like.....

Mikkel

15th July 2008, 11:32

I very much doubt they could do an arrest based upon demerit points - speeding in and of itself does not give a constable the power of arrest.

They might be able to suspend your license right then and there - whether you exceeded the limit by 41+ km/h or not.

Morcs

15th July 2008, 12:48

jrandom

15th July 2008, 12:54

What if you get some tickets, and at the same time the license is taken?

Then yer fucked, ain'tcha, because the licence is gone before you can pay the tickets and get the points recorded.

Also, the cops don't automatically take your licence off you if you get a ticket when you're over 100 points. I know, because one of the guys who ticketed me last weekend did a QP and commented that I was on 125 and should keep an eye open for the licence suspension guy knocking on my door.

They do, however check to see whether the licence collection has been referred over to them from LTNZ, and if so they will take your licence off you then and there.

Apparently that referral happens if the LTNZ collection man can't get it within four weeks of the suspension letter being issued.

You may occasionally get lucky and have a cop ticket you on the roadside without running a QP, in which case you'd escape being relieved of your licence even if collection thereof had already been referred to the cops.

The second ticket I got on the weekend went that way. It was fairly close to Dunkin Donuts closing time, so fair enough.

Chrislost

15th July 2008, 12:56

The Pastor

15th July 2008, 12:57

However, I did think that the oldest demerits totalling +100ish were dropped off with a 3 month, but anything over that remained in force?

And that common misconception is why I posted this thread - LTNZ has just confirmed that you thought wrong.

So long as all outstanding tickets are paid up and recorded in the system by the time your licence is taken off you, you get it back with zero demerit points.

:first:

I had got the impression that this loophole had been patched recently to avoid people stalling the procedure and thus avoiding getting their license suspended.

I think that, now, the demerits are recorded as per the date on the ticket. I am however not 100% sure...

The loophole that allowed people to avoid a suspension has been patched.

The 'loophole' that allows people to get their licence back with zero points on it even after incurring tickets beyond the first 100 points has not been patched.

Is that even a 'loophole', per se? It makes good sense to me; once someone exceeds a certain threshhold, set the system in motion, give him a three-month walking holiday to cool down and then let him back out onto the road with a clean slate.

Anyway, I queried the LTNZ lady in precisely these terms and she confirmed that this is indeed the case.

Right.

Is that clear?

If anyone else skim-reads this thread and adds another 'But I thought...' post, I swear I will track them down and give them the atomic wedgie from hell.

They are wanting to fix this law - it will be updated with the new demerit laws (75 for running a red or having a radar dector). As it stands, its as its always been.

Chrislost

15th July 2008, 13:00

SPman

15th July 2008, 14:36

Yes (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=77413).

Betty will have a Beltronics STi on her when my licence is returned.

:niceone:

And when are they banning radar detectors..............?

rphenix

15th July 2008, 15:29

Bloody dogs missing my licence more n i am (LIER !!!!!)

Solution tie dog leash to your 24speed :clap:

Mikkel

15th July 2008, 15:44

They do, however check to see whether the licence collection has been referred over to them from LTNZ, and if so they will take your licence off you then and there.

Apparently that referral happens if the LTNZ collection man can't get it within four weeks of the suspension letter being issued.

I guess that wouldn't be too bad - of course a roadside suspension is always a hassle, but if you can dodge the collection fella long enough, the first infringement will tick away while you're walking. Then you'll only have to wait 21 months for the demerits to disappear :D

75 demerits for running the reds sounds fair - for having a radar detector, ridiculous!

avgas

15th July 2008, 15:48

you best be coming on a few thursday night rides and befriending ginger:drool:
Nah you guys are too flash for me, with your non-scratched bikes and your brakes

sinfull

15th July 2008, 16:15

Solution tie dog leash to your 24speed :clap:

Haha she half husky !
Ya don't think my arse geting bruised cause i'm standing up peddling hard out do ya !
Working well for the first k or so, then i have to start peddling ! Need a pack of em and a cut to shreads trike frame mmmmmm nah stick to the side car idea lol 3 months is gonna go like wow its been 11 days 6 hours and 3 minutes already !
Grabs the bong ! Followed smartly by another bourbon !
Wow its been 11 days 6 hours and 4 minutes already !
Aww shit when did i say that already ??

FJRider

15th July 2008, 22:29

Just keep saving money for gas then, in a few months it will cost more than it is now...think of the money you've "saved" already...

Swoop

16th July 2008, 13:30

And when are they banning radar detectors..............?
With an election coming up, not in the immediate future.:niceone:

jaykay

25th July 2008, 13:32

As you are no doubt aware, the points are recorded in the system when you pay the ticket, or after two months from the date of offense when the ticket is transferred to the courts for collection, whichever comes first.

I checked this point recently - and points don't appear to be added when an unpaid fine is passed to the courts. In one of my cases the Police (as usual), ignored a request for a hearing, so the fine was passed to the courts for collection. The eventual hearing date was eleven months later, the Police dropped the case four days before the hearing date. When I phoned recently there was no record of any points being added whilst the courts were chasing me for the money (which I never owed as the Police couldn't prove the allegation).

If points are added before payment or being found guilty - and the police subsequently cannot prove the charge - someone could be in the absurd position of losing their licence if these points puts them over 100 and then having the points removed later on.

From what I can gather it is the paying of money that means you are admitting guilt, and points are added then.

peasea

25th July 2008, 20:47

And when are they banning radar detectors..............?

Who gives a toss? I haven't got one yet but when they ban them I'm going to go out, buy one and hide it just to be the rebel. Fuck 'em! Who are those twats making up dumb rules anyway? Who's going to police that ban? the cops? They have to find it first.........

"Unlawful search" and shit like that is only going to further clog the system. A blitz on "lack of indication" would go further to saving to lives, I'd wager.

Cocks.

Ixion

25th July 2008, 20:54

Hm

If they ban radar detectoes , most people will compliantly junk theirs. So, if some rebellious souls were to obtain the junked detectors (for free, I'd guess), and rip the guts out of them, then mount them on their bikes, when stopped by the fuzz for having an illegal detector, they could quite truthfully claim "No , I have no such thing. Look, this is just an empty case, Move along officer, nothing to see here.".

Now, if hundreds of rebellious people did this (let alone thousands) the police would very soon get tired of stopping people who appeared to have a detector. Meanwhile, the said rebellious persons could take the ripped out works, and incorporate them into the superstructure of their motorcycles in such a way as to be unfindable without major dismantling. We already use ear pieces and such like ("For listening to my GPS/MPS, of course, officer"), we do not have to have the detector in sight.

Nobody would be so rebellious as to do anything like that, would they.

Motorcyclists nowdays are all good lawabiding compliant souls, who know that whatever the Sheeple decree is for the good of all, and applaud and obey. Aren't they ?

scumdog

25th July 2008, 21:07

Hm

Now, if hundreds of rebellious people did this (let alone thousands) the police would very soon get tired of stopping people who appeared to have a detector. Meanwhile, the said rebellious persons could take the ripped out works, and incorporate them into the superstructure of their motorcycles in such a way as to be unfindable without major dismantling. We already use ear pieces and such like ("For listening to my GPS/MPS, of course, officer"), we do not have to have the detector in sight.

Nobody would be so rebellious as to do anything like that, would they?

Nah, you're talking about Kiwis here - they'd never 'get it together' -couldn't organise an attack of the scours in a prune factory, never mind an orchestrated protest in any meaningful way...