VMCC Round III points question.

[White trash]

Hoping one of our top notch VMCC officials can shed some light on a query I have from yesterdays racings points taly.

From http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=885087 it shows the second Superbike race points split in half after a red flag on lap three of the 10.

Why does the crasher causing the red flag get credited with second place for that part of the race, gaining 11 points for it?

No disrespect to Sam, I hope he's feeling better but I'm not sure how the system works. Especially so early in the race, I could perhaps understand is we were 2/3 of the way through or some thing. Anyone wanna explain?

Chur.

[Shaun]

Hoping one of our top notch VMCC officials can shed some light on a query I have from yesterdays racings points taly.

From http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=885087 it shows the second Superbike race points split in half after a red flag on lap three of the 10.

Why does the crasher causing the red flag get credited with second place for that part of the race, gaining 11 points for it?

No disrespect to Sam, I hope he's feeling better but I'm not sure how the system works. Especially so early in the race, I could perhaps understand is we were 2/3 of the way through or some thing. Anyone wanna explain?

Chur.

NOT A TOP NOTCH VMCC MEMBER, but an old has been, who knows the rule book well mate


Simply because the results stand from the lap before the RED flag was put out, even if the rider who causes the flag is out!!

WSS, just stay lying on the ground long enough, and RE start will be had, with all the NON injured crashed riders.

SAM WHO CRASHED, and is he OK??

[White trash]

Suspected cracked wrist yesterday, dunno how he's doin yet.

Got tossed off the top of the R6 comin outta Higgens, poor bastard. He has worse luck than any other racer I reckon.

[kickingzebra]

bugger!! yeah, it is a rooted rule, but it is a rule.
a bit crap down there huh?

[Shaun]

Suspected cracked wrist yesterday, dunno how he's doin yet.

Got tossed off the top of the R6 comin outta Higgens, poor bastard. He has worse luck than any other racer I reckon.


An extremelly talented rider, who has a LOT of bad luck. But he will be back no doubt, he is still very young

[GIXser]

no disrespect to Sam and i hope he heals fast, but what a crock of shit rule.... how the fuck can a crashed rider get points?!!!?

again Sam i hope ya heal fast, but i would have bitched about this regardless of person that crashed!!

[Drew]

It happens with regular frequency, and since I crash a lot...

Dont rock the fuggin boat!

[Burrt Badger]

It is the same rule as used in MotoGP, WSB, BSB, AMA, Australia etc. There is no other way of doing it that is fair in all situations, and believe me when I say, a number of people have tried to come up with a replacement.

[GIXser]

eeeermmmm... what about the obvious.. like...... restart and count the points fromt the race that finishes!!!

[Shaun]

eeeermmmm... what about the obvious.. like...... restart and count the points fromt the race that finishes!!!




eeermmmmm. what about the obvious? If a rider crashes and takes out an innocent party

this way all get points that they have worked for, and it is a fair way of doing it

I actually lost the NZ Superbike championships by 3.5 points, due to a rider being allowed to restart in the re start of a race, after his bike had broken down 2 laps before the RED flag was put out, NOW THAT WAS UN FAIR, and I had not noticed that the rider had been allocated points for his race, untill SUZUKI asked me where my lead had gone

My bad management.

[Sparky Bills]

I actually lost the NZ Superbike championships by 3.5 points, due to a rider being allowed to restart in the re start of a race, after his bike had broken down 2 laps before the RED flag was put out, NOW THAT WAS UN FAIR, and I had not noticed that the rider had been allocated points for his race, untill SUZUKI asked me where my lead had gone
.

GEEZ! That sounds extremely unfair!
How did they get away with that? Doesnt fit into the restart rule at all.... or does it??

[Shaun]

GEEZ! That sounds extremely unfair!
How did they get away with that? Doesnt fit into the restart rule at all.... or does it??



My bad management, I did not check the points allocation after the race, I knew the rider was in the RE start race, but thought it was just for testing purposes, due to his machine failure!- Thought this was good of the club at ch ch to do this.

So I should have actually protested the results, and would have won the SB champs by 9 points, to go with the 600ss title and F2 Title I won that year

O well

[White trash]

It is the same rule as used in MotoGP, WSB, BSB, AMA, Australia etc. There is no other way of doing it that is fair in all situations, and believe me when I say, a number of people have tried to come up with a replacement.
Since when, have they ever alocated a 50/50 points split on a MotoGP restart? I have no problem with someone restarting a race, then getting points for the scond part. But I don't understand how you get a points split when a race is only 2 laps long. Theoretcially, if you're going to play those games the first two laps should only count for 20% of the points.

This isn't worrying me by the way, I'm just thinking that in the interests of fairnes this rule needs a little fine tuning.

[svr]

no disrespect to Sam and i hope he heals fast, but what a crock of shit rule.... how the fuck can a crashed rider get points?!!!?


Has happened a few times over the years.
There is a `no fault' implementation of the red flag rule for the reason that it gets messy assigning `fault' to a crash - say the rider is lapping a back-marker and gets taken out, or hits oil or whatever - its turns into an argument requiring witnesses, someone gets a lawyer etc.
20+ years ago you never saw red flags - bad luck for the crasher but avoided extra re-starts - the most dangerous part of the race. Nowadays there seems to be heaps of re-starts with resultant extra crashes.
Remember, if you're in front after 2/3 of the race and crash - stay down -you'll get the win. Hopefully its a win some, lose some deal.

[GIXser]

eeermmmmm. what about the obvious? If a rider crashes and takes out an innocent party

this way all get points that they have worked for, and it is a fair way of doing it

.

if an inncocent party gets taken out thats just the way the cookie crumbles after all it is racing, we all crash, or get crashed into sooner or later i believe its part of racing, otherwise dont go racing!!
anyways like you say the rule has probably been discussed many times before and so it is...
)

[Frenchy]

I was just looking at mylaps and asked Nicki the same Question then seen this thread, it seems a little stink. If i'd knowing this i would of stayed down in the mud after colliding with john on the middle straight and then i would of bet Doggy Mat and Luke!!!!!!!! :confused:

[scrivy]

Simply because the results stand from the lap before the RED flag was put out, even if the rider who causes the flag is out!!
Remember the debacle at Bathurst when godzilla won in the wet after DNFing the lap earlier?!!!


I should have actually protested the results, and would have won the SB champs by 9 points, to go with the 600ss title and F2 Title I won that year


Ya greedy bistard!! Sound like a trophy hunter to me!!! :bleh::laugh:

[cowboyz]

from the mouth of the uneducated....


Didnt this cause a ruckuss at the bathurst that the skyline won in the wet.

(dont follow bathurst or V8s but I remember one year it pissed with rain and the race was stopped but he (skaife?) crashed on the out lap. It was taken back to the last lap where he was winning)

[speedracerjimmy]

this is one of the dumbest rules and i totally disagree with it...
but then again this rule may one day benefit you..

[k14]

It is the same rule as used in MotoGP, WSB, BSB, AMA, Australia etc. There is no other way of doing it that is fair in all situations, and believe me when I say, a number of people have tried to come up with a replacement.
No sorry mate, you've got it wrong there. Yes it is a total crock rule, I have had a lot of dislike for it ever since i started racing, never been on the right end of it either.

In auzzie the person causing the red flag gets disqualified from the results. Which is the best way to do it I reckon. In world superbike/supersport they restart the race (so long as its less than 2/3rds distance) and it is agregated on total race time. In motogp/250/125 the race is stopped and everyone starts again in the place they finished the first part of the race in.

I am quite happy to have the half points system, although sometimes it is a bit of a crock. At ruapuna nationals this year the 600 race, one of the sadowski's crashed on the 2nd lap and got credited with half points for a race win. He was the rider that caused the red flag too.

[boomer]

Jimmy, i wouldn't argue the rule bro, with your good starts and ability to bin you should be sharing pole ( or the points ) on every race bro :whistle:

[Burrt Badger]

Here is the rule guys.
If you can come up with something better, do so, but consider that not all events are transponder or computer timed or timed at all, so make sure that your revision will work in ALL Road Race Situations .
This is based on the FIM rules.
Think back to the Phillip Island round of Superbikes. Major crash on the start line and another major crash at Lukey heights. Most of the riders at the start line restarted, as did the Luke heights guys. To be able to participate in a re start, you MUST have been racing at the point the race is taken back to (1 lap prior to the red flag being displayed). If you were parked trackside with a machine fault, on your back or did not start the race, you are not eligible to compete in the restart..

6-13 `Stopping and Restarting a Race`
Road Race Events
Should it be necessary to stop a race due to an accident or if climatic or other conditions
make it hazardous to continue, a red flag will be displayed by the steward, or his deputy,
at the finish line. A minimum of 3 (three) more red flags are to be displayed
simultaneously around the circuit, one of which shall be the last flag point before the
finish line. In addition, all flag points not displaying red flags are to wave yellow flags.
Upon sighting the red flag riders are to cease racing immediately and, after passing the
finish line red flag complete 1 (one) further lap at touring pace before returning to the pit
lane, or the safest point on the track at the discretion of the steward (this point to be
announced at riders briefing), grid where they will stop and await further instructions.
The decision to stop a race for whatever the reason can only come from the Steward or in
his/her absence the Clerk of the Course. For climatic reasons the race can only be stopped
once. The conditions under which the race will be restarted are as follows: the number of
laps referred to in A and B is the number of laps effected before the lap in which the race
is stopped.
A. If two laps or less are completed:
a. The original start shall be declared null and void.
All riders taking part in the original start shall be allowed to restart either on the
original machine or on another machine provided it has been approved as fit to race
by the machine examiners. The restarted race shall be for the full race distance and
the original grid positions will be used. The place of any motorcycle unable to take
part in the restart shall be left vacant.
b. If it is not possible to restart the race, no points will be awarded towards the
championships.
c. In all cases where a restart takes place, this will be 30 minutes at the latest after
the initial race has been stopped.
B. If three or more laps but less than two thirds of the race distance have taken place.
a. The race shall be considered to be more than one part. The race positions at the
end of the lap preceding the stopping of the race. In all cases where a restart takes
place, this will be 30 minutes at the latest after the previous part has stopped.
b. The distance of the restarted race will be that required make up the initial full race
distance.
c. The grid for the restart will be in the order of the machines at the end of the
preceding part.
d. Only those riders who have accomplished at least 65% of the laps realised by the
first rider of the proceeding part will be authorised to restart. Machines may be
repaired or replaced.
e. Half points will be awarded to each part. If it is impossible to restart the race, half
points only will be awarded towards the championship.
C. If two thirds of the race distance is completed:
a. This shall be declared a full race. The finishing order shall be at the end of the lap preceding the stopping of the race.
b. Full championship points will be awarded.

[enigma51]

Jimmy, i wouldn't argue the rule bro, with your good starts and ability to bin you should be sharing pole ( or the points ) on every race bro :whistle:

You should be well ahead!

[k14]

Here is the rule guys.
If you can come up with something better, do so, but consider that not all events are transponder or computer timed or timed at all, so make sure that your revision will work in ALL Road Race Situations .
This is based on the FIM rules.
Think back to the Phillip Island round of Superbikes. Major crash on the start line and another major crash at Lukey heights. Most of the riders at the start line restarted, as did the Luke heights guys. To be able to participate in a re start, you MUST have been racing at the point the race is taken back to (1 lap prior to the red flag being displayed). If you were parked trackside with a machine fault, on your back or did not start the race, you are not eligible to compete in the restart..

When someone crashes and causes the red flag then you don't need a transponder to know who it was! It is quite simple, work out who caused the red flag and they get removed from the results. At club racing it isn't really a big issue cause the races are generally approx 6 laps. But at nationals it can cause quite a dramatic difference in the overall championship etc.

[Drew]

When someone crashes and causes the red flag then you don't need a transponder to know who it was! It is quite simple, work out who caused the red flag and they get removed from the results. At club racing it isn't really a big issue cause the races are generally approx 6 laps. But at nationals it can cause quite a dramatic difference in the overall championship etc.

But if the person crashing is "taken out", then ya can hardly disqualify them. So there would be punch ups over who caused a crash if more than one bike were involved.

[k14]

But if the person crashing is "taken out", then ya can hardly disqualify them. So there would be punch ups over who caused a crash if more than one bike were involved.
Yeah agreed, in auzzie its up to the stewards to decide if the red flag causer is excluded from the results or not. IMO it is a much fairer way to do things!

[wharfy]

Yeah agreed, in auzzie its up to the stewards to decide if the red flag causer is excluded from the results or not. IMO it is a much fairer way to do things!

At VMCC rounds there is only one steward - what if hes in the bog when it happens ? There is no video ref and even when there are slowmo replays available (as in motogp) it is a very hard call sometimes who is at fault.

I like the idea of a "no fault" rule.