Have you used the Northern Busway on your motorcycle yet? [Archive]

nudedaytona

29th July 2008, 13:14

It's not legal. We've been over this. Do a forum search for the relevant details. Transit control that road, and it's for buses only. If you're seen by a cop on it, you'll be ticketed.

Anyway, what are you doing wanting to use the buslane? Filter through the traffic properly, you candy-arse faggot.

I can filter fine thanks. But why should I have to deal with traffic if its safer and faster to use busway? I'm sure you would be more comfortable doing 80km/hr on open road than filtering through motorway traffic at that speeds. Saying a shouldn't be able to is a fag cager attitude

I have done a forum search, there was quite a bit of debate about its legality. And if its not legal, what are the chances of getting caught? If more bikers use it, the authorities will see that its not a problem and this will create pressure on them to legalise it.

jrandom

29th July 2008, 13:19

I have done a forum search, there was quite a bit of debate about its legality.

It's not legal or illegal in the criminal law sense; the point is, Transit own the road, and if they say that only certain vehicles can use it, that's what goes.

... if its not legal, what are the chances of getting caught?

There was a chap in the news recently who got nicked sneaking around orange roadworks cones in the general Harbour Bridge area after hours.

A traffic camera operator spotted him and alerted HP.

You can almost guarantee you'd get similar treatment if you tried to use the northern busway on a motorcycle during rush hour.

If more bikers use it, the authorities will see that its not a problem...

Dunno about that.

I see the point of the bus operators not wanting bikes whizzing around their buses as they trundle along, stop at the stations, etc.

And you just know that most of the bikes would speed along there, and Highway Patrol cars can't just cross over into it to pull them over, etc, etc. It'd be a huge pain in the arse to manage.

Ain't gonna happen.

Suck it up and filter.

merv

29th July 2008, 13:42

Weren't Transit the ones that said motorcycles were welcome in bus lanes while the Councils were the ones that did not.

I thought Transit said a bus priority lane is a lane reserved by a marking or sign installed at the start of the lane and at each point at which the lane resumes after an intersection for the use of buses and cycles, mopeds and motorcycles (unless either or all of the last three modes are

specifically excluded by the sign). Note the "unless".

Then they say a busway is a segregated section of carriageway from general traffic for bus use only. No mention of signage but I presume your northern Busway has signs telling cars, motorcycles etc to F'off.

So I'm guessing if there are no signs then you're OK.

nudedaytona

29th July 2008, 13:44

It's not legal or illegal in the criminal law sense; the point is, Transit own the road, and if they say that only certain vehicles can use it, that's what goes.

Transit is a government department. I, and all motorcyclists pay general and fuel taxes, so we should have a say in what happens in our own country and neighborhood. Its a bit like the cheesecutter campaign - we don't like the wire rope barriers, so many motorcyclists have been protesting against these.

There was a chap in the news recently who got nicked sneaking around orange roadworks cones in the general Harbour Bridge area after hours.
A traffic camera operator spotted him and alerted HP.

This is illegal, yes, but has nothing to do with the busway.

I see the point of the bus operators not wanting bikes whizzing around their buses as they trundle along, stop at the stations, etc.

And you just know that most of the bikes would speed along there, and Highway Patrol cars can't just cross over into it to pull them over, etc, etc. It'd be a huge pain in the arse to manage.

Ain't gonna happen.

The bus drivers can handle it. Bikers will be responsible around buses because in a bike versus bus accident the bus will always win.

Enforcing speeding restrictions on the busway is no different from enforcing it on the motorway. Currently, its not easy for cops to chase someone going in the other direction on the motorway because of the barrier in the middle. So its no different on the busway. And of course, they can use the cameras you mentioned to help the cops chase any busway speedsters.

With your sort of fatalistic, bend over and take it attitude, its no wonder Transit and other govt agencies think they can ignore motorcyclists.

jrandom

29th July 2008, 13:45

Weren't Transit the ones that said motorcycles were welcome in bus lanes while the Councils were the ones that did not.

Other way round.

(unless either or all of the last three modes are specifically excluded by the sign).

Yeah.

Unfortunately, the northern busway has big signs up everywhere saying 'BUSES ONLY'.

jrandom

29th July 2008, 13:46

This is illegal, yes, but has nothing to do with the busway.

Has everything to do with whether you're likely to get nicked and ticketed every time you try to use it.

Bikers will be responsible...

:killingme

*wipes tears from eyes*

I'm sorry, where were we?

With your sort of fatalistic, bend over and take it attitude...

I pick my fights.

I guess I just don't mind filtering that much.

Mikkel

29th July 2008, 14:02

The bus drivers can handle it. Bikers will be responsible around buses because in a bike versus bus accident the bus will always win.

So this is specific for buses in your opinion?

Hit just about anything on a motorcycle = you loose!

If more bikers use it, the authorities will see that its not a problem and this will create pressure on them to legalise it.

From that perspective weed would have been legalised long ago and we wouldn't have the speed limits we have today.

I suspect like most other traffic offenses - you'd get away with it most of the time. Cameras or no cameras - stopping a motorcycle in heavy traffic is not that easy I would think.

nudedaytona

29th July 2008, 14:02

The proportion of bikers in NZ is so small that we are having a hard time getting any movement from the government on a nationwide issue like the wire rope barriers.

So with a local issue like the Northern Busway, perhaps the number of north shore bikers is so small and there just is not enough noise from them to get transit to change its rules about the busway.

It will be interesting to see if any bikers try to use the busway once summer returns and the weather improves for an extended period.

jrandom

29th July 2008, 14:04

The proportion of bikers in NZ is so small that we are having a hard time getting any movement from the government on a nationwide issue like the wire rope barriers.

Maybe it's just the proportion of bikers who are against wire rope barriers that's small?

So with a local issue like the Northern Busway, perhaps the number of north shore bikers is so small and there just is not enough noise from them to get transit to change its rules about the busway.

Well, you're not going to change the status quo by posting about it on KB.

Try writing to your MP.

nudedaytona

29th July 2008, 14:12

Well, you're not going to change the status quo by posting about it on KB.

Try writing to your MP.

Yes, true, but it would be good to know that I had some support. That's partly why I posted this poll, so I could see what sort of support there was for using the busway.

If I got the rules changed so that bikers could use the busway, I bet you'd be the first one to ride along it, and probably the first one to speed along it too. You'd be freeriding on my efforts to change the status quo.

Or would you persist in filtering?

jrandom

29th July 2008, 14:19

If I got the rules changed so that bikers could use the busway, I bet you'd be the first one to ride along it, and probably the first one to speed along it too.

Probably. And that'd be lovely. Feel free to put that effort in so that I may benefit from it.

I can't personally be arsed with it, though. Attempting to create genuine political pressure is difficult and very time-consuming.

If getting Transit to agree to let motorcyclists use the busway instead of filtering is more important to you than all the other things you could be doing with your spare time, then I wish you the best of luck.

nudedaytona

29th July 2008, 14:35

Probably. And that'd be lovely. Feel free to put that effort in so that I may benefit from it.

I can't personally be arsed with it, though. Attempting to create genuine political pressure is difficult and very time-consuming.

If getting Transit to agree to let motorcyclists use the busway instead of filtering is more important to you than all the other things you could be doing with your spare time, then I wish you the best of luck.

We all know that the politicians can't be arsed changing anything when the people who think they might want change don't even know if they want change and can't be arsed doing anything about it.

When presented with the opportunity to change something like the busway, the first thing any politician would ask is, is there support for it? And without wider support its not going to happen

Here is what I think the opinions from different groups would be for letting bikers use the busway:

Car drivers: Don't really care, but if it takes those pesky bikers off the motorway then it's probably a good thing.

Bus drivers: Don't really like it, but I generally have to deal with a lot worse traffic than a few bikes so I don't really mind

Cyclists: Want to use busway too but can't pedal fast enough!

Motorcyclists: We don't know if we want to use busway or not, and can't decide because we're too busy bitching about it and would rather filter.

jrandom

29th July 2008, 14:41

Motorcyclists: We don't know if we want to use busway or not, and can't decide because we're too busy bitching about it and would rather filter.

You're the one bitching about it!

Fine. Show me a petition and I'll sign it. Mm kay?

Sanx

3rd August 2008, 00:39

Unfortunately, the northern busway has big signs up everywhere saying 'BUSES ONLY'.

If the Northern Busway has been declared a bus lane, then it's entirely legal for motorbikes to use it until such time as Transit learn what a 'specific exclusion' is. A sign saying Buses Only is not a specific exclusion; it's a specific inclusion and, as such, is not sufficient to override the bus lane-related provisions of the Land Transport Act.

The same applies to every bus lane that has 'Buses Only' signs.

However, it would depend on whether the Northern Busway is actually an official bus-lane. Other bus lanes on motorways can be legally used. This isn't Transit's intention and you could still very well get tickets for doing so, but they've been overturned due to incorrect signage before and they will be in the future.

Big Dave

5th August 2008, 13:31

I got the irony of the post, random.

We are excluded from using the freeway bus lane due to a 'risk factor' - yet the road code allows for passing within the same lane - as long as it is done on the right hand side - even though there is always significantly more room on the left.

The laws are collective asshats. Fortunately most coppers are appropriate in their administration of them.

coop

5th August 2008, 20:44

NodMan

6th August 2008, 19:43

I was pulled over this morning on my way to work. South bound on the Auckland Harbour bridge, stayed in the far left lane past Shelly Beach off ramp and then around the blind left hander. I was not aware that the bus lane had started at the off ramp, I thought it was after the bridge. Anyway copper was around the corner, on his bike waiting to meet his quota.

He was pretty good about it, gave me a warning and continued on his revenue raising ways in cutting down fatal crashes on Aucklands motorway.

Hey mate get our stories right!!!
I dont have a quota...I can write as many notices as I like till I run out of customers!

I dont gain any revenue from my interaction with the public BUT....

I have peoples details noted down that hopefully I dont have to transfer to a toe tag down at the morgue on a later date!!(No fatal crash is a pleasure to attend and especially a fellow motorcyclists!)

fLaThEaD FreD

6th August 2008, 19:51

Hey mate get our stories right!!!
I dont have a quota...I can write as many notices as I like till I run out of customers!

I dont gain any revenue from my interaction with the public BUT....

I have peoples details noted down that hopefully I dont have to transfer to a toe tag down at the morgue on a later date!!(No fatal crash is a pleasure to attend and especially a fellow motorcyclists!)

Hopes NodMan dosent have my details noted down.....:innocent:

Devil

8th August 2008, 13:44

southernmike

8th August 2008, 13:52

Wots a bus lane? Wots traffic congestion? Oh, that's right I'm in the SI.

McJim

8th August 2008, 14:08

Filtering was fun - don't take away our excuses for fun....oh, I live in Invercargill...I can't filter any more (note to self ..move back to London :rofl:)

Sanx

11th August 2008, 19:34

I thought the rather large overhead sign about Bus Lane was pretty unambiguous. Lucky you got a warning!

Yeah. The Land Transport Act is pretty unambiguous about the types of vehicles allowed to use a bus lane too.

Have a look here (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2004/0427/latest/DLM302197.html#DLM302197) and scroll down a bit. It says that bus lanes can be used by:

buses; and
cycles, mopeds, and motorcycles (unless one or more are specifically excluded by the sign)

I have never seen a sign on any bus lane anywhere that says, either in words or pictorially, no motorcycles. Unless the sign says no motorcycles, motorcycles are legally allowed to use the bus lane.

So, actually, no warning should have been given at all.

Big Dave

11th August 2008, 23:10

Yeah. The Land Transport Act is pretty unambiguous about the types of vehicles allowed to use a bus lane too.

Have a look here (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2004/0427/latest/DLM302197.html#DLM302197) and scroll down a bit. It says that bus lanes can be used by:

buses; and
cycles, mopeds, and motorcycles (unless one or more are specifically excluded by the sign)

I have never seen a sign on any bus lane anywhere that says, either in words or pictorially, no motorcycles. Unless the sign says no motorcycles, motorcycles are legally allowed to use the bus lane.

So, actually, no warning should have been given at all.

My guess is that there are by-laws that apply to the motorways authority that supplement the act.

MarkH

12th August 2008, 10:24

The proportion of bikers in NZ is so small that we are having a hard time getting any movement from the government on a nationwide issue like the wire rope barriers.

Does anyone know where to find the figures on number or motorcyclists in NZ?

I gotta figure that there has been a decent increase over the last 3 or 4 years. Even though the price of petrol has gone down a little recently I think it is only a temporary reprieve. Supply/demand forces mean that petrol will get more expensive and that will push more motorists to bikes & scooters.

Jantar

12th August 2008, 10:30

My guess is that there are by-laws that apply to the motorways authority that supplement the act.
You are right Dave. Unfortuantely for the roading authorities, bylaws do not take precedence over legislation, and may only supplement it. All that is needed, if they don't want motorcycles in the bus lanes, is a sign saying "Motorcycles Prohibited". As there is no such sign then motorcycles can legally use the bus lane.

Big Dave

12th August 2008, 10:38

You are right Dave. Unfortuantely for the roading authorities, bylaws do not take precedence over legislation, and may only supplement it. All that is needed, if they don't want motorcycles in the bus lanes, is a sign saying "Motorcycles Prohibited". As there is no such sign then motorcycles can legally use the bus lane.

So from that one of us could ride up the bus lanes - get a ticket - take it court - and get off?

That could be a publicity and profile exercise etc he thinks.

But then 2 weeks later they'll just put up the sign.

Jantar

12th August 2008, 10:49

So from that one of us could ride up the bus lanes - get a ticket - take it court - and get off?

That could be a publicity and profile exercise etc he thinks.

But then 2 weeks later they'll just put up the sign.

I believe that many have already got off simply by writing in and quoting the legislation. Transit (or whatever it is called now) do not want a court case and the resulting publicity.

Grub

12th August 2008, 10:50

I have never seen a sign on any bus lane anywhere that says, either in words or pictorially, no motorcycles. Unless the sign says no motorcycles, motorcycles are legally allowed to use the bus lane..

The practical application of that is as documented by the Welly CC.
- "Bus Lane" includes bikes as per your quote from LTNZ
- "Buses Only" excludes all vehicles other than buses and therefore qualifies as the 'sign' that you're referring to above. Buses Only means only buses.

Ragingrob

12th August 2008, 10:53

This is pretty confusing stuff...

As the motorway "bus only" lanes on the left shoulder only show "bus lane" signs also don't they? They don't specifically exclude motorbikes... I don't think. But as has already been said, people are being ticketed for it.

I can't recall ever seeing a bus lane sign which specifically excludes motorbikes/mopeds or cyclists.

Hmmm. Guess I'll just stick to lane-splitting, where the legalities seem just as ambiguous!

Jantar

12th August 2008, 11:18

The practical application of that is as documented by the Welly CC.
- "Bus Lane" includes bikes as per your quote from LTNZ
- "Buses Only" excludes all vehicles other than buses and therefore qualifies as the 'sign' that you're referring to above. Buses Only means only buses.

The "Buses Only" sign does not meet the legal requirement of "specifically excluding" motorcycles. To be "specifically excluded" then motorcycles must be specified on the signage.

"Buses Only" specifically includes buses, but doesn't specify any other vehicle, so the normal legislation applies.

Swoop

12th August 2008, 12:17

I can't recall ever seeing a bus lane sign which specifically excludes motorbikes/mopeds or cyclists.
Have a look on the on-ramps to the motorway. There is usually a picture of a person walking, with a large red circle and bar over the pedestrian.
There is also a sign saying "No pedestrians on the motorway - fine $200"

This sign specifcally excludes "someone" from "somewhere".

The "busses only" signs are inclusive and not exclusive, as required by the law.

Grub

12th August 2008, 16:28

To be "specifically excluded" then motorcycles must be specified on the signage..
Oh for gawds sake .... says yoU? The "Buses Only" has been tried and tested by the courts in Welly. "Only" was deemed to be quite a clear interpretation of the law.

Jantar

12th August 2008, 16:44

Oh for gawds sake .... says yoU? The "Buses Only" has been tried and tested by the courts in Welly. "Only" was deemed to be quite a clear interpretation of the law.

Ok, can you refer me to a defended case where this ruling was made?

Fatjim

12th August 2008, 17:16

- "Buses Only" excludes all vehicles other than buses and therefore qualifies as the 'sign' that you're referring to above. Buses Only means only buses.

Yes, but not specifically, this is implicitly specified. This is because the legislation regards a bus lane as for the use of motorcycles as well. Therefore to say buses only in this context means "Buses, motorcycles, mopeds only" The legislation is clearly written so that to exclude motorcycles from a a bus lane it should say "No motorcycles" i.e explicitly.

boostin

12th August 2008, 17:25

Anyone actually have a copy of the Transit bylaws that control the busway?

Also interesting that the North Shore City Council bylaws state that you must have a particular vehicle specified before it can use the bus lane.

Sanx

14th August 2008, 14:24

My guess is that there are by-laws that apply to the motorways authority that supplement the act.

Bylaws Act 1910, section 14, would tend to indicate that national statute takes precedence over bylaws where the bylaw is repugnant (http://www.answers.com/repugnant&r=67) to national law. Land Transport Act is national. Transit's bylaws are not. Therefore where Transit's bylaws contradict (are repugnant to) the Land Transport Act, the Land Transport Act wins.

The practical application of that is as documented by the Welly CC.
- "Bus Lane" includes bikes as per your quote from LTNZ
- "Buses Only" excludes all vehicles other than buses and therefore qualifies as the 'sign' that you're referring to above. Buses Only means only buses.

Yeah - it's the same as Auckland City Council's documentation. Doesn't change the fact that the documentation is wrong and any ticket resulting can be fought and won.

Oh for gawds sake .... says yoU? The "Buses Only" has been tried and tested by the courts in Welly. "Only" was deemed to be quite a clear interpretation of the law.

Any proof? And who did the interpretation? A real judge, or some complete lay person sitting as a magistrate who conveniently ignores everything other than that stated by Officer Plod and the prosecutor, no matter how accurate it is?

Anyone actually have a copy of the Transit bylaws that control the busway?

Also interesting that the North Shore City Council bylaws state that you must have a particular vehicle specified before it can use the bus lane.

Transit Regulations:
Transit Bylaw 2002/19 as amended by this (http://www.dia.govt.nz/Pubforms.nsf/NZGZT/NZGazette123Aug05.pdf/$file/NZGazette123Aug05.pdf) (scroll to page 56). If anyone can find a copy of Transit Bylaw 2002/19, I'd like to see it. Every place I can think of to search (NZ Gazette, NZ Legislation website, Google) comes up short.

Transit have also claimed (http://www.transit.govt.nz/news/MediaReleaseView.do?MediaReleaseId=nz.govt.transit .transweb.content.news.MediaRelease-7507) that bus lanes on motorways are not actually bus lanes, but emergency lanes that are used as bus lanes during certain times of the days. But then they go and shoot themselves in the foot by calling them bus lanes in the bylaws themselves.

And again, doesn't matter what the bylaw says. If it contradicts the Land Transport Act then the contradiction is dealt with by Section 14 of the Bylaws Act 1910; the Land Transport Act wins.

Big Dave

14th August 2008, 18:48

So what is the conclusion drawn from this research?

Swoop

14th August 2008, 20:18

That there is too much legislation in this country.

Ragingrob

15th August 2008, 10:21

Lol imagine all of us being able to boost down the side of the motorway in the bus lane, that would be awesome!

Although if it was to be the bus lane on the shoulder I'd be a bit skeptical about all the gravel/glass/debris that ends up on shoulders.

Sanx

15th August 2008, 13:02

So what is the conclusion drawn from this research?

That it's perfectly legal, despite Transit's best efforts, for motorbikes to use bus lanes that state "Buses Only". However, you'll still get a ticket because cops don't know any better or don't care, and you'll have to fight it.

And then you'll have to try to persuade a magistrate who has little interest in ascertaining the truth and very little understanding of the law.

Your mileage may vary.
Not tested on animals.
May contain traces of nuts.

skidMark

16th August 2008, 01:32

Bikes cannot use it as it is a private road owned by the bus company...

...Yet the tax payer paid for it, and pays for it's maintenaince.....hang on....:mellow:

rwh

16th August 2008, 15:19

Yeah. The Land Transport Act is pretty unambiguous about the types of vehicles allowed to use a bus lane too.

Have a look here (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2004/0427/latest/DLM302197.html#DLM302197) and scroll down a bit. It says that bus lanes can be used by:

buses; and
cycles, mopeds, and motorcycles (unless one or more are specifically excluded by the sign)

I have never seen a sign on any bus lane anywhere that says, either in words or pictorially, no motorcycles. Unless the sign says no motorcycles, motorcycles are legally allowed to use the bus lane.

So, actually, no warning should have been given at all.

Here's a thought.

That rule applies to a 'bus lane', marked with a sign saying 'BUS LANE'. If the sign says 'BUSES ONLY', it doesn't say 'BUS LANE', does it? So perhaps different rules can apply there?

And to the comment that bylaws can't override Acts of Parliament, well, the Road User Rule isn't actually an Act, is it? It refers to one, but isn't one.

IANAL.

Richard

matdebat

17th September 2008, 14:42

Yeah. The Land Transport Act is pretty unambiguous about the types of vehicles allowed to use a bus lane too.

Have a look here (http://www.legislation.govt.nz/regulation/public/2004/0427/latest/DLM302197.html#DLM302197) and scroll down a bit. It says that bus lanes can be used by:

buses; and
cycles, mopeds, and motorcycles (unless one or more are specifically excluded by the sign)

I have never seen a sign on any bus lane anywhere that says, either in words or pictorially, no motorcycles. Unless the sign says no motorcycles, motorcycles are legally allowed to use the bus lane.

So, actually, no warning should have been given at all.
I have been pulled over 3 times for riding on the Esmonde bus lane. I have a print out of the law stated above in my jacket pocket that I show the cops and they have let me off all 3 times. The law does clearly state that unless theres a sign saying "no motorcycles" you can use it.

DevoDave

16th January 2009, 20:53

The road code is specific on this subject, but it also recommends that you check your territorial authorities regs, in the case of the North Shore City Council on the subject of Esmond Rd approaching the motor way Motor Bikes can use the bus lane to a point 100 m from the western exit from the Assembly of God Church. that said; I doubt if there are many cops who would be au fait with the regs so I take the chance in shitty weather when the motor way approaches are clogged.