Racetech gold valve install - self-install?

[CookMySock]

"Racetech kits are designed to be installed by home/hobbiest mechanics - comes with instruction DVD etc etc"

Anyone installed these themselves ? Did your forks ? Shock ? How hard is it to do ?

The racetech bits themselves aren't pricey, but by the time I have someone do the front and rear its touching 2k.


DB

[Cajun]

suspension is a very very dark art. one small mistake can be huge problems.
get someone who does it, even if its your local bike shop will know someone local he might be able thelp

[CookMySock]

Well, here I am told two conflicting things - there is a huge discrepancy between it "being a very very dark art", and "designed for the home mechanic". One of these things does not fit.

Can we hear from a "home mechanic" who has done it ?


DB

[Cajun]

install parts and doing the manual work isn't that hard, its the stuff like setting them up, and tweaks that only people who deal with all the time know/learn.

And one small mistake can cause big issues. in handling, know this from past experence

[CookMySock]

And one small mistake can cause big issues. in handling, know this from past experenceLike what sort of mistake ? What problems did you see ? Share your experience.


Steve

[xwhatsit]

10... 9... 8...

(counting down til when Robert Taylor appears and lambasts all us gumbies for even thinking we could fiddle with suspension without 20 years of experience and a gold-edged certificate from that Swedish company whose name I forgot...)

[CookMySock]

I invite his, or anyones, constructive criticism. "Don't do it coz u will die" is not helpful. But mostly, I'd just like to hear from someone who has done it - someone on KB will have.. If the kit comes with DVDs, written instructions, graphs for setting it up and so on - how hard can it be ? Its not for race use, and it only has to be 4-5 times better than the standard hyo shock (shudder..)

DB

[R6_kid]

I think the consensus is buy local, get local support.

[forkoil]

I've installed the racetech emulators in sv650 forks with handwritten instructions from RT. No problems but of course you should be confident with the spanners. If you are a gumboot who overtightens, burrs off bolt heads etc then dont try it. One tricky bit was having to drill out the oil holes in the existing damper rod (in effect to negate it low speed damping effect), it was for an 11mm hole, now its damn hard to get an 11mm bit for yer avg home drill which has a 10mm chuck. I also installed the spring kit which is step one before the emulators really. This is tricky in that you have to get the spacer length right so the static sag is within the fork head adjustor range, and the sag that RT gives is without rider, the spring rate is the bit that varies by rider weight, so I presume you got the correct spring rate for your weight. Make sure you put the emulators in the right way up, its obvious when you see how they work. I also reset the sprint tension on them according to the racetech instructions.
Keep everything clean, and follow the instructions, use common sense and bobs yer uncle.

[Pussy]

I've installed the racetech emulators in sv650 forks with handwritten instructions from RT. No problems but of course you should be confident with the spanners. If you are a gumboot who overtightens, burrs off bolt heads etc then dont try it. One tricky bit was having to drill out the oil holes in the existing damper rod (in effect to negate it low speed damping effect), it was for an 11mm hole, now its damn hard to get an 11mm bit for yer avg home drill which has a 10mm chuck. I also installed the spring kit which is step one before the emulators really. This is tricky in that you have to get the spacer length right so the static sag is within the fork head adjustor range, and the sag that RT gives is without rider, the spring rate is the bit that varies by rider weight, so I presume you got the correct spring rate for your weight. Make sure you put the emulators in the right way up, its obvious when you see how they work. I also reset the sprint tension on them according to the racetech instructions.
Keep everything clean, and follow the instructions, use common sense and bobs yer uncle.

The Gold Valve cartridge kit is WAY more fiddly. The shim combination possibilities in them are huge. Plus there can be real bastard staked nuts etc to remove.
I'm not trying to spend your money, DB, but quite honestly for the cost of the labour content, I'd be inclined to send the forks to Robert to have the valves fitted. It has the very real danger of being an easily fucked up job... and Robert has done literally hundreds of them

[vifferman]

As I own a VFR, I have access to an illustrated "How To" on one of the VFR forums with explicit details on what to do, which shims to use in the stack, what order to put them in, where to drill holes, what size, etc etc. Because of that, and having done a fair amount of work on my own bikes over the years, I would consider doing the job myself. However, I am leaning towards getting RT to do it, because I'm sure I can trust him to do a better job.
Plus my wife gets pissed off when I "fiddle" with what used to be "our" bike (it has now reverted to being my bike, due to unauthorised "fiddlings" having somehow sullied it.
Plus I'm getting sick of doing stuff like this.

[CookMySock]

I've installed the racetech emulators in sv650 forks with handwritten instructions from RT. No problems but of course you should be confident with the spanners. [....] Keep everything clean, and follow the instructions, use common sense and bobs yer uncle.Hrm that sounds like me. Cant see why I cannot do that.


The Gold Valve cartridge kit is WAY more fiddly.. [....]staked nuts etc to remove. [....] for the cost of the labour contentWay more fiddly than forkoils emulator install ? They are not the same units ?


As I own a VFR, I have access to an illustrated "How To" on one of the VFR forums with explicit details on what to do [....]Plus my wife gets pissed off when I "fiddle" with what used to be "our" bike

Can I just join that forum and view said instructions ? Or do I have to buy a VFR first ? :blink:

Er, I don't mean to advise, but it sounds to me like you need another bike.. I wouldn't dare touch my wifes bike without her express invitation. :whistle:


Steve

[Pussy]

Way more fiddly than forkoils emulator install ? They are not the same units ?




Yes! Modifying damper rod forks to take cartridge emulators is a completely different kettle of fish to revalving cartridge forks

[AllanB]

Ah bring back the early 80's when you just added heavier oil and a stack of coins on top of the springs to improve your front end.

If your bike was really fancy it may have had air caps on the top of the forks!

[Kickaha]

Ah bring back the early 80's when you just added heavier oil and a stack of coins on top of the springs to improve your front end.


I know when I took my LC forks apart there was $1 of 20cent coins in each fork leg

[CookMySock]

Yes! Modifying damper rod forks to take cartridge emulators is a completely different kettle of fish to revalving cartridge forksI agree there, er but hold on, I am told the GT650R are cartridge forks.

"Suspension: 41mm inverted cartridge forks adjustable for compression and rebound damping"

http://www.motoring.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=759&fArticleId=2839090
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1639928#post1639928
http://www.pashnit.com/forum/showthread.php?p=213121
http://www.ridermagazine.com/output.cfm?id=1201879


Steve

[Pussy]

I agree there, er but hold on, I am told the GT650R are cartridge forks.

"Suspension: 41mm inverted cartridge forks adjustable for compression and rebound damping"

http://www.motoring.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=759&fArticleId=2839090
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1639928#post1639928
http://www.pashnit.com/forum/showthread.php?p=213121
http://www.ridermagazine.com/output.cfm?id=1201879


Steve

It won't be as easy as it sounds, DB, to disassemble, modify, and reassemble cartridges. It is VERY easy to fuck it up.
Fitting emulators to damper rod forks is quite easy, in comparisson.
Quite honestly, get RT or someone VERY familiar with cartridge forks to do the job for you, and save a shitload of grief

[tri boy]

My experiences with Race tech kits, and fitment have been told here before.
I have been in the bike trade, mechanic for quite a few years on lots of different gear, and I still think that having guys like RT around are a great thing.
Yes, you can do it yourself, or even get a half competent mechanic to install it for you, but I would say that the result will be approx 50% as good as what you hope for, and you will ride the bike for a few months trying to dial the suspension in, then get the shits and get someone like Robert to redo it.
I take pride in my work, but I'm not so big headed to think I can compete knowledge wise with RT etc in the suspension game.
It's like bypassing a great plumber to get a electrician to install all your pipes/hot water/sewage system. Sure, they can do a pretty good job because they work closely with plumbers, but when it rains heavily, and poos start floating down your driveway, what would you say to yourself?
(something like "damn, should of used that plumber).
Bedtime story over:rockon:

[Robert Taylor]

10... 9... 8...

(counting down til when Robert Taylor appears and lambasts all us gumbies for even thinking we could fiddle with suspension without 20 years of experience and a gold-edged certificate from that Swedish company whose name I forgot...)

Flippancy is not always an endearing quality and I was guilty of that in my younger years. But hey, Ive had worse and last week was indirectly accused of being ''holier than thou''. If that is a negative form of response to aspiring for myself and my staff to achieve excellent work whilst being scathing of substandard work and poor backup then I plead guilty.

But anyway, to the question which was a very fair one. I know Paul Thede ( Race Techs founder ) personally and you couldnt hope to meet a nicer guy. But I am at odds with ''you can do it yourself'' and have expressed these concerns directly to him. There are a lot of people who can diligently fit these kits but there are a whole load more that simply, stuff it up.
To attempt to do so with inadequate tools and the finesse of an elephant is inviting disaster. But if you are prepared to have the correct tools, have experience of detailed intricate assembly and are diligent and FUSSY then yes you can do an acceptable job.
Frankly there are a lot of precautions and things to watch for that only comes with repetitive experience. It would take many A4 pages to detail every single precaution. We see quite a number of home fitments every year that have come to us for correction, fact. Further to this, the setting chart specs are a guideline only and we have found a number that have not worked so well and have corrected using our suspension dyno before delivery to the customers.
With the Hyosung improved front fork damping control ( properly set ) will yield a very good improvement, but the first issue to address is to fit front fork springs that are appropriate to your personal height and weight. Just changing the fork springs alone will yield a big improvement to that bike as the stock ones are woefully weak.
DB, if you want to pm me your regular e-mail adress I can forward you a draft article about the negative consequences of incorrect springing.
As for the rear shock, I am at odds to know if you can modify that one relative to the ratio of cost to result, as you are looking at springing, piston kit, labour oil and gas. I now have some trade in Ohlins shocks that may be able to be modified to fit at reasonable cost.
Hope this helps......

[Robert Taylor]

Ah bring back the early 80's when you just added heavier oil and a stack of coins on top of the springs to improve your front end.

If your bike was really fancy it may have had air caps on the top of the forks!

And oh my giddy Aunt, mullets! If only I still had hair as well..

Personally, I think that without engineers who are forever pushing the boundaries the world would be a poorer place. This is where I think in reality many people struggle to understand, we want improved performance but many are not prepared to accept that we also have to be as smart as the product, so to speak.

[slowpoke]

I think you have to decide what you want to achieve before contemplating such a task. The options as I see them are:
A) If you just like getting your hands under your bikes skirt then have a play.
B) If you want the cheapest result, have a play
C) If you like working through problems and (hopefully)learning by yourself, with no urgency for optimum performance, have a play
Bearing in mind that with options A-C a substandard result could cost you far more than the cost of a professional install
D) But, if you want the best result, in the shortest time, pass the responsibilty on to Dr Bob or a simialrly qualified professional.
From my experience as an occasional racer he got me within the ballpark of optimum settings far quicker than if I had blundered about on my own. As a result what I had thought to be a virtually knackered torn up rear tyre has been rehabilitated to something I'll get a lot more use out of. The guy pays for himself, how good is that?

[cs363]

Don't do it!!! If you feel the need to ask about the job then I would put money on that you will at best end up with suspension that's not as good as it could be (so why spend the money?) or at worst a complete cluster fuck! :)
While if you have correct, good quality tools and enough knowledge to be dangerous you could certainly fit them, the problem is that unlike the Emulators they are not really a drop-in, fit and forget type part. The shim stacks need to be built to suit your weight, bike, riding style etc - this is where the so called 'dark art' comes in, or to put in more realistic, simple terms - experience. There are often other modifications that can be made to the fork internals to further improve compliance, performance and those other big words the Dr bandy's about with ease :) Not to mention spotting worn/damaged/faulty components.
Also, before you even go that way you'd want to make sure your spring rates are correct in relation to weight & riding style.

Getting the equation right with all the above items is what you pay people like Dr Bob for, and it's worth every penny! I really do believe that when it comes to suspension it pays to get the professionals on the job, you won't regret it.

[cs363]

Ah bring back the early 80's when you just added heavier oil and a stack of coins on top of the springs to improve your front end.

If your bike was really fancy it may have had air caps on the top of the forks!


Ah.....that brings to mind one of Paul Thede's (Race Tech founder) favourite sayings - 'the best you've ridden is the best you know'
Never a truer word spoken IMHO :)

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

fucken easy as to install emulator kit and spring kit to sv650. and even drilling out the holes is childs play. the most testing bit is undoing the each allen bolt at the bottom of each fork leg without deforming. this just comes down to technique.

[vifferman]

Can I just join that forum and view said instructions ? Or do I have to buy a VFR first ? :blink:
You can just go and have a look. But bear in mind the details apply to a VFR800, not a HyoSilverAndAway.

Cartridge Installation. (http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=9592)
Cartridge fork service.
(http://www.vfrdiscussion.com/forum/index.php?autocom=ineo&showarticle=9)

[vifferman]

Further to this, the setting chart specs are a guideline only and we have found a number that have not worked so well and have corrected using our suspension dyno before delivery to the customers.
To be honest, Racetech have a reputation for their charts and guidelines being very race-biased. F'rinstance, if you use their suspension guide to work out what fork springs you need, they'll end up WAY too stiff. For me on the VFR, they'd recommend 1.00kg/mm springs, when in fact the best fit would be more like 0.90 (standard is 0.74).
So... if you're doing it yourself, unless you can get reliable information from someone who's also done it and knows unequivocally what's best for your riding style, roads, weight, etc., the most you're likely to be able to hope for is that it will be better than it was stock (and potentially worse).

[Pussy]

fucken easy as to install emulator kit and spring kit to sv650. and even drilling out the holes is childs play. the most testing bit is undoing the each allen bolt at the bottom of each fork leg without deforming. this just comes down to technique.

Yep, emulator kit reasonably simple... fitting pistons/shims to cartridges not so simple. As mentioned above, getting the valving calibration right can be challenging, too

[pritch]

This is where I think in reality many people struggle to understand, we want improved performance but many are not prepared to accept that we also have to be as smart as the product, so to speak.

This is a continuing problem for the USAF. The 'planes are designed by a guy with a doctorate, built by a guy with a masters degree, flown by a guy with a bachelors degree, and kept in the air by a guy who went to high school.

Without meaning to tell my grandmother how to suck eggs :whistle:

[CookMySock]

ok found this also - it looks particularly easy to follow.

http://zrxoa.org/webpages/techinfo/shocks/RaceTech.html


Steve

[Pussy]

DB, be aware that the valving specs on the Racetech site can be quite unsuitable for what you might need. I have personally seen one of their rebound valving specs that was slower than the second coming of Christ. I have no idea what practical application it would have. And also bear in mind that oils ain't the same. You may have to do LOTS of trial and error

[CookMySock]

DB, be aware that the valving specs on the Racetech site can be quite unsuitable for what you might need. [...] You may have to do LOTS of trial and errorYes I picked that earlier. I think you might see by now, money is my issue, not time. I would dearly love to chuck a grand at the front, and then again at the rear, but the bike isn't worth that much, and I don't have the cash anyway. I can't even buy the racetech stuff until I have cleared up some other toys. It's 300 ish to do it myself, 900 ish to have it done for me. The 600 difference comes straight out of my arse.

If my setup is crap, and the forks have to spend $300 worth of time on Roberts Dyno, then its still much cheaper.

The only problem I have, is if I bork the install badly, and thats looking more and more unlikely.

DB

[Squiggles]

Yes I picked that earlier. I think you might see by now, money is my issue, not time. I would dearly love to chuck a grand at the front, and then again at the rear, but the bike isn't worth that much, and I don't have the cash anyway. I can't even buy the racetech stuff until I have cleared up some other toys. It's 300 ish to do it myself, 900 ish to have it done for me. The 600 difference comes straight out of my arse.

If my setup is crap, and the forks have to spend $300 worth of time on Roberts Dyno, then its still much cheaper.

The only problem I have, is if I bork the install badly, and thats looking more and more unlikely.

DB

If you screw the install, what they're going to have to do to fix it will be more work than just having them install it, because they'll have to check your doubtful standard of work at the same time. How do you rate your chances of not only getting the install correct, but getting the correct settings at the same time? Are you going to be able to afford to pull them apart again if you arent quite right?

I wouldnt follow yank guides on forums, they seem to butcher alot of stuff without a clue...

[Robert Taylor]

fucken easy as to install emulator kit and spring kit to sv650. and even drilling out the holes is childs play. the most testing bit is undoing the each allen bolt at the bottom of each fork leg without deforming. this just comes down to technique.

Indeed but have you also accounted for all of the following detail points that are not so well mentioned or not mentioned at all;

1) If you drill the extra holes in the bottom of the damper rods exactly as Race Tech describe how to do it do you realise that you in fact end up with a ''dead'' area of rebound damping on initial return from at or near full closed position? And that dead area of rebound is exactly proportional to the distance that the furtherest new hole is displaced from the original holes.
In a short stroke road race fork that becomes a real issue. If you are skeptical about what I say get a set of forks dyno'd that have been modified the way the instruction sheet says and then a second set that takes well into account what I have just stated.

2) Do you also realise that many damper rods dont pull centrally into line with the main tubes when the lockbolt is torqued up? If the damper rod is offset to one side ( they very often are ) that impacts quite noticably on damping performance. The top hat piston ring on the damper rod is squeezed to one side and doesnt seal on the opposite side giving a lot of uncontrolled bleed on both compression and rebound strokes

3) Rebound control is in fact the biggest achilles heel of damper rod forks, whether an emulator is fitted or not. I wonder aloud how many have installed oil ''weight'' according to the attached gospel and in fact the result has been either overfast or overslow rebound, if overslow that is always a recipe for crashing. Only experience engenders a feel for correct rebound speed

4) Precise setting of preload turns on the poppett, its amazing how many get this wrong

5) Main spring preload setting to achieve correct sag ratios

ETC.....

Emulators are a LOT simpler to instal than piston kits and valving into cartridge forks.

What I am saying here is that the success of the job lies in experience ( no apologies for stating that ) and a keen attention to detail that the instruction sheets are unable to engender.

[Robert Taylor]

DB, be aware that the valving specs on the Racetech site can be quite unsuitable for what you might need. I have personally seen one of their rebound valving specs that was slower than the second coming of Christ. I have no idea what practical application it would have. And also bear in mind that oils ain't the same. You may have to do LOTS of trial and error

INDEED!!!!!!!!!! If we had implicitly trusted the setting progression chart it would have been all too easy to crash that bike. We have a very extensive database of dyno graphs of very well tested Ohlins damping curves, so what we did was to play with the valving on those Race Tech pistons until we were able to closely emulate the Ohlins curves and to have a decent response range. The shimming combination ended up being different to any of the Race Tech setting specs. That bike was taken to the track, the rider professed himself very happy with it and we made a very minor clicker change probably more because I was being fussy.
We can also achieve this with road going specs. The Race Tech stuff is good but like anything does also rely on the settings being dialed. This ( unapologetically ) relies on experience and careful attention to detail.

[Ivan]

I agree with Robert on correct sags.

I set the sag up on my bike and rode it and it was out by miles Robert did them for me and what a differnce completly differnt front end.

I say as a racer. Suspension is important in feeling comfortable and it may cost that extra ammount but get it done properly goign the quick way around costs alot more in the long run especially if something goes wrong and you crash or excessive tire wear not good

Go to a pro

[FROSTY]

Dude you've had a bunch of answers from different people.
I'd suggest you have a look at the suspension experience level of all of them.
Heres my lil bit of feedback.
Very much like the racers advice of "go slower to go faster"
I'd suggest that you will actually find you in this case should "spend money to save money"

[CookMySock]

I'd suggest that you will actually find you in this case should "spend money to save money"Yeah mate, I agree with you. But I think I'm a little like you, where I'd like to either do it myself and learn from the process even if it costs more, or at least have it explained to me, rather than hand over the cash and ride the product home. Am I right here ? So theres my problem. The head wins or the heart wins - which one do you follow ? Yup.

Thanks Frosty.

DB

[Katman]

The only problem I have, is if I bork the install badly, and thats looking more and more unlikely.

DB

You seem to be the only one on here who thinks so highly of yourself.

[FROSTY]

Yeah mate, I agree with you. But I think I'm a little like you, where I'd like to either do it myself and learn from the process even if it costs more, or at least have it explained to me, rather than hand over the cash and ride the product home. Am I right here ? So theres my problem. The head wins or the heart wins - which one do you follow ? Yup.

Thanks Frosty.

DB
in a nutshell bro--
If yer thinking like me then FFS learn frm MY mistake,
a full season on a front end that whilst mechanically in really nice condition was set up so badly it was dangerous. Wrong springs foe my weight and internal damping up the shit.
Shaun got it to a level that was ridable by optimising what I had.
Chris Osborne (ozzy) stripped the forks down and BUILT a front end that actually works --No more sledging front end.
I'd put a HUGE chunk of money that robert or Chris would happily explain exacxtly what and why they do stuff to your forks

[CookMySock]

Ok FROSTY. I hear ya.


DB

[erik]

"Racetech kits are designed to be installed by home/hobbiest mechanics - comes with instruction DVD etc etc"

Anyone installed these themselves ?

I haven't.

From what's been posted, it seems the only person in this thread that has installed the Gold Valve kits is Robert Taylor.

Most other people have had him install the kits for them and are now recommending you do the same.

Robert Taylor has said:

But if you are prepared to have the correct tools, have experience of detailed intricate assembly and are diligent and FUSSY then yes you can do an acceptable job.

It's interesting that so few people have actually fitted the kits themselves. The only thread I've found about it on kiwibiker is the one by Pixie:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=52932

Maybe you'd be better off searching international forums for info?

If you do fit them yourself, it'd be interesting to see a report/photos of how it went.

[Pixie]

neve
I invite his, or anyones, constructive criticism. "Don't do it coz u will die" is not helpful. But mostly, I'd just like to hear from someone who has done it - someone on KB will have.. If the kit comes with DVDs, written instructions, graphs for setting it up and so on - how hard can it be ? Its not for race use, and it only has to be 4-5 times better than the standard hyo shock (shudder..)

DB

Don't do it,you'll die!!!
Or worse!
I did it and look at me ( see avatar )

If you won't listen to reason then see the post below (Forks will vary)

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=52932&highlight=racetech&page=2

Or you could be a good,compliant 21st century man and pay someone to do it for you and never learn anything and believe that you are inadequate

Michelangelo had never painted anything in the 20 years since his apprentiship,when he took on the commission to paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.
When he needed advice,he asked.

RaceTech's settings were pretty good (I told them the details of the bike,my riding style and our excuse for roads in NZ)

[NordieBoy]

Ah bring back the early 80's when you just added heavier oil and a stack of coins on top of the springs to improve your front end.

If your bike was really fancy it may have had air caps on the top of the forks!

I've got air caps and a 15mm thick nut on top of the springs :D
New coins just arn't as good as the old coins.

[CookMySock]

From what's been posted, it seems the only person in this thread that has installed the Gold Valve kits is Robert Taylor.Hi Erik. Yes I had hoped this procedure was a lot more common. Talking to a number of people, including suspension techs, it is clear the procedure is perfectly straight forward for them, so I doubt it is any more than a "head scratcher" for me. The hard part is the initial shim stack recipie and customising it for my bike without the use of the dyno, and further setup assistance. However, I don't need or care about a "ten orders of magnitude" improvement - a "two orders of magnitude" improvement will suffice.

I spoke to the friendly local suspension tech bloke, and he suggests to not even waste money on the racetech pistons.. "quite a lot can be done with the stock internals - mods etc." Total cost $250 all up. I am sorely tempted to take his offer up and just see how good it is. This is almost a quarter of the cost of the full racetech setup.


Robert Taylor has said:
It's interesting that so few people have actually fitted the kits themselves. The only thread I've found about it on kiwibiker is the one by Pixie:
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=52932I wonder why it is so "interesting". It seems that the job is non-trivial, but so is riding a sportbike, or bringing up kids. Thanks for drawing that link to my attention. I don't know how I missed that.


Maybe you'd be better off searching international forums for info? If you do fit them yourself, it'd be interesting to see a report/photos of how it went.Yes I did some googling and came with some great documentation. It all suggests that the procedure is indeed something that can be carried out in a home workshop, and many if not most of the tools can be improvised, provided there are no pipe wrenches, adjustable spanners, and other garden implements used.



http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=52932&highlight=racetech&page=2


Michelangelo had never painted anything in the 20 years since his apprentiship,when he took on the commission to paint the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.

Thank you Pixie. Thank you very much, actually. Will read and digest.

Steve

[tri boy]

Lets all put this back in perspective for a minute aye. (I know it's not the KB way, but let's try).
Many riders, across most disciplines of the sport, have fitted various brands of after market valving/springs/dampening units, and with pretty good results.
ie, there forks have worked, the front wheel hasn't fallen off,etc.
However, if you wish to get the best result from the kit, and have a superior job done, then it is common sense to use those that do this stuff day in day out, and tap into their historic records, charts, industry inside knowledge.

I hope those that do their own suspension mods enjoy the process, and get a kick out of a successful rebuild, but I doubt very much that the end result will match the quality of pro's like RT and other dedicated men.
(I'm sure everyone has lathes, specialist digital measuring equipment, and a huge database of settings to fall back to).:yes:

[cowpoos]

Yeah mate, I agree with you. But I think I'm a little like you, where I'd like to either do it myself and learn from the process even if it costs more, or at least have it explained to me, rather than hand over the cash and ride the product home. Am I right here ? So theres my problem. The head wins or the heart wins - which one do you follow ? Yup.

Thanks Frosty.

DB

I reckon go for it Steven!! whats the worst that can happen??

Also I reckon you should remove all the warning lables off your bike and safety gear and household appliances,Tools infact anything with safty instructions and or warning labels...I think it would bode well for you to learn the hard way...after all all these people with mountans of years of experience [centrys in Dr Bob the tory pheasent plucker's case ;) ] giving you advice are obviously full of themselves.


Okay...now for my unsarcastic opinion...sell the hyosung and upgrade. they are good bikes for the price....but are built to that price. the upgrade difference between yours as a trade and upgrading suspension...would probally net you a very nice second hand 600 or maybe a nice ducati 600ss or a cheap 748...all which would run rings around the hyosungs handling.

[TLDV8]

Fitting (fork) Goldvalves is not that hard if you have a lathe and mill to construct the tools needed to disassemble the forks which i think is a key part.

You need a spring compressor for starters on USD forks.

<img src= http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/manurewa/Comp12.jpg> <img src =http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c345/manurewa/Comp5.jpg>

Once you have removed the cartridge you need to remove the carrier (hardly the right description) from the damper tube without damaging it in any form as it has a 2mm wall thickness (or less) the Goldvalve is fitted to that item.
You would need to check the condition of the fork while there,seals,bushs,run out etc etc.
You then rely on the stack recommended by RaceTech,i used a a C35 in the 2002 GSXR1000 forks on the yellow TLS,it is not quite right and this is where experience comes in,i am not sure what shim stack would be an improvement.:crazy:
Not to mention,the GSXR Kayaba's (like TL1000 Kayaba's) seem to have a tolerance problem with the rebound needles,the compression needles also perhaps so they might need aftermarket replacements.
Be assured although i have good mechanical experience and the ability to make the needed tools and reassemble things,you would not want me to set the suspension settings on your bike :laugh:
I can follow directions though which is why i will rely on Robert Taylor when it comes time to fit the suspension package he is constructing for my DR650.
There is no real harm (if sensible) in doing things yourself but quite often the most realistic route can be using a professional. (in my opinion only)
(Taking for granted the professional knows what they are doing)
It is somewhat a double edged sword as i am all for the Kiwi have a go tradition.
Only you know what you can or can't attempt.
Rear coil over dampers i guess are similar but from my experience are hard to bleed properly.(which means it wont work so off to a professional to do < am sure they love that :laugh: )
Obviously any changes to shimming means total disassembly over and over.
I guess your own time is free,depending on your patience. (if you get it right in the end) :eek5:

Robert is sending Emulators for the forks which i have not fitted before so that will be something new. (I am guessing the DR fork is old school damper rod.)

[Squiggles]

However, I don't need or care about a "ten orders of magnitude" improvement - a "two orders of magnitude" improvement will suffice.

Seeing as there is a fair bit of economics in your decision, say it costs a grand to do it professionally, and 300 to do it yourself. With a 10 fold improvement from the pro's, or a 2 fold improvement from you... You're loosing out a little there :clap: Only one of the options guarantees improvement without seat of the pants testing... "I spent all this money on it, it must be better!" :rolleyes:

I'm quite happy to attempt work unless i think its out of my league (there are also those times when i just want it done by someone else, to save me the time/hassle)
I look at this, see i could do the install they've given, but i would want the best i could get from the product, and knowing that the install guides still arent going to give me that, i would entrust it to someone who could. :)

[CookMySock]

So I spend 300bux on my bike, learn something new, bike goes better, and I have fun. Not good value ?

If anything, I'll pull them apart and get my local techie to cast his beady eye over it and see what can be done with the cartridges. In a few months I'll be in a better position to choose too.

Anyone wanna buy some scuba units ?

DB

[Squiggles]

So I spend 300bux on my bike, learn something new, bike goes better, and I have fun. Not good value ?

Depends what you want from the bike, i hate having to touch my tl when it comes to things like this, ill take the advice of the pros on the options available, then have them do it

Got other bikes, $300 ones, to have fun and fiddle with :laugh:

Enjoy your wee adventure

[Robert Taylor]

Robert Taylor said ''Its interesting that so few people have fitted the kits themselves'' Well, in fact I absolutely did not make that statement and who can reasonably tell what percentage of kits have been ''home fitted'' ?????

DB, I know its tempting to listen to everyones 2 cents worth but often its a little akin to going to your hairdresser for legal or medical advice. Sure a number of people will have successfully fitted kits and I suspect a good many had to swallow their pride and ask for help because the instructions by no means cover every little detail and eventuality.
There are so many subtle differences in flow path variations etc that the generic valving curves can often be several steps away, or as we have found in a number of instances we end up with a completely different valving arrangement to what Race Tech suggest in the progression curves.
The danger lies in listening to those who maybe have fitted one or two kits and then have made a blanket assumption that its simple and straightforward for everything. ( and then needlessly embellished their position with a little bit of sarcasm ) In my unapologetically considerable experience that is absolutely not so!
In the case of the Hyosung it is an ''orphan'' as far as ready documentation of the standard components as a term of reference, but I can tell you that the front fork springs are the first thing you should be ditching, $300 on just a gold valve kit is not going to adequately do the job, it may address the compression damping issue but it doesnt address the fork spring issue or any rebound issues.
Please note that any advice I am offering is in good spirit even though suggesting more money be spent is not always music to the ears. I make no apology to anyone for offering the technically correct solutions and for stressing the desirability of quality control.

[CookMySock]

Yes, no worries Robert. I make no bones about your expertise, experience, or any part of your operation.

Yes, I have read this evening that a correct rebound curve is vital to the successful operation of the damper, and a gold valve kit doesn't add this. I'm rather stumped by this revelation actually.

It is just a matter of following my heart on things. Is there any other way ?

I'll consider my many options and make my choice. Thank you to all.

This thread is about cars, but the suspension/tech side of it was VERY interesting.
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=166909

Steve

[Robert Taylor]

Yes, no worries Robert. I make no bones about your expertise, experience, or any part of your operation.

Yes, I have read this evening that a correct rebound curve is vital to the successful operation of the damper, and a gold valve kit doesn't add this. I'm rather stumped by this revelation actually.

It is just a matter of following my heart on things. Is there any other way ?

I'll consider my many options and make my choice. Thank you to all.

This thread is about cars, but the suspension/tech side of it was VERY interesting.
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=166909

Steve

Thats an interesting forum, thanks. Mirrors the same dealings we have with car shocks and yes the issues and techniques are pretty much the same, just a few different chassis dynamics to contend with.

[CookMySock]

Thats an interesting forum, thanks. Mirrors the same dealings we have with car shocks and yes the issues and techniques are pretty much the same, just a few different chassis dynamics to contend with.Loving those graphs.. What a difference the rebound curve seems to make, and how similar the compression curve is over many digressive shocks - almost as if the compression curve is non-critical. Rebound is where the magic happens Robert ?

See, now I'm all tempted to find a geared electric motor, load cell, A/D card and make a dyno for fun.

Gah, reality check, brokeass! No workshop. Dreaming.. :no:

DB

[Robert Taylor]

Loving those graphs.. What a difference the rebound curve seems to make, and how similar the compression curve is over many digressive shocks - almost as if the compression curve is non-critical. Rebound is where the magic happens Robert ?

See, now I'm all tempted to find a geared electric motor, load cell, A/D card and make a dyno for fun.

Gah, reality check, brokeass! No workshop. Dreaming.. :no:

DB

In truth we do a lot of work with both but yes, there is a lot more importance to the shape and force values of the rebound curve than many give credit to.
Digressive compression curves are also not a ''holy grail'' Very often you need appreciable slope to the curve beyond the initial hold up knee and nose. This to ''catch'' over sudden movements and on a race track to aid brake dive resistance. This is where 25mm aftermarket cartridges have an advantage because there is more surface area of piston and more mass flow.

[DEATH_INC.]

I'm gonna say have a go at it yourself. Haven't done a hyosung but been inside a few shocks/forks and with common sense and a reasonable mechanical ability the install is easy enough. This isn't taking into account the 'black art' that is suspension tuning though....that's RT's department....

[XP@]

I've just had emulators fitted on my Transalp and it's made a massive difference. I've got one hell of a lot more confidence in the corners now, much nicer ride!

No, I did not fit them myself, deciding I would buy a bit of expertise from Kerri Dukie ( http://www.dukicperformance.com/ ) at the same time. The result is if they were set up correctly (well as far as i can tell!) the first time. I also had a very good, personal, "suspension 101" thrown in. Totally worth the extra fitting costs for reduced risk and right first time factors.

DB did you get yours sorted? if so, what was the verdict?

[CookMySock]

Naw we ran outa money and ended up in hibernate mode. Growl.

How much did you spend? Did you take the forks off and send them away, or did they do the whole job ?

Steve

[Shaun]

I'm gonna say have a go at it yourself. Haven't done a hyosung but been inside a few shocks/forks and with common sense and a reasonable mechanical ability the install is easy enough. This isn't taking into account the 'black art' that is suspension tuning though....that's RT's department....


And RT is the best in the country

[Robert Taylor]

I've just had emulators fitted on my Transalp and it's made a massive difference. I've got one hell of a lot more confidence in the corners now, much nicer ride!

No, I did not fit them myself, deciding I would buy a bit of expertise from Kerri Dukie ( http://www.dukicperformance.com/ ) at the same time. The result is if they were set up correctly (well as far as i can tell!) the first time. I also had a very good, personal, "suspension 101" thrown in. Totally worth the extra fitting costs for reduced risk and right first time factors.

DB did you get yours sorted? if so, what was the verdict?

Were they genuine brass Race Tech emulators or were they the mainland Asian rip off copies? If they are the Asian ones ask that they are swapped for the long term reliable US product. The Asian ones wear quickly and the poppet springs sack out. We know, we tested and analysed them.

[mossy1200]

I just got mine done by RT and guess what ,they already had emulators so poorly installed you couldnt tell they were there at all.Now my 20 year old bike will ride like a new bike and the money has been well spent rather than a 50% result from me doing it myself.Get it wrong and you spent money achieving nothing.
Id rather go earn the money and get it right 1st time.I would be 90% likely to stuff something anyways.
Confidence in a job well done is worth the expence.

[Shaun]

Were they genuine brass Race Tech emulators or were they the mainland Asian rip off copies? If they are the Asian ones ask that they are swapped for the long term reliable US product. The Asian ones wear quickly and the poppet springs sack out. We know, we tested and analysed them.



r, but the ASIAN ones are cheaper for the fitter to buy, givin a better profit margin though

[Robert Taylor]

r, but the ASIAN ones are cheaper for the fitter to buy, givin a better profit margin though

It matters not how much cheaper they could be, theres always a price to be paid with cheapness. Poor performance and poor reliability.

[CookMySock]

Who supplies the asian knock-off ones? The genuine article isn't that expensive I thought.

Steve

[TZ350]

10... 9... 8...

(counting down til when Robert Taylor appears and lambasts all us gumbies for even thinking we could fiddle with suspension without 20 years of experience and a gold-edged certificate from that Swedish company whose name I forgot...)

Sure you could pay to have it all done......but RT is ok about people having a go, so long as they don't grump at him if it all goes tits up. Bucketracer brought a set of gold valves of RT and RT has been helping all the way as Bucketracer rebuilds his forks and dials them in. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=102171&page=1

RT didn't have to do it and there was no real $$$ in it but he has helped Bucketracer heaps.

[mossy1200]

I think RT likes the everyone, unless they are trying to sell a budget crap knock off product that attempts to replicate years of resurch with a "copy it cheep and sell it to the unaware public approach".

[Skunk]

Sure you could pay to have it all done......but RT is ok about people having a go, so long as they don't grump at him if it all goes tits up. Bucketracer brought a set of gold valves of RT and RT has been helping all the way as Bucketracer rebuilds his forks and dials them in. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=102171&page=1

RT didn't have to do it and there was no real $$$ in it but he has helped Bucketracer heaps.
I got some off RT too. He set them up at a 'best guess' (CB125T forks on an Ax100 with shortened springs isn't the best start point - without even seeing the bike!). He's helped me adjust them ever since.

I think I've used the cost of them in labour alone!

Best thing I ever did for the bikes handling. Bang for buck they couldn't be beaten.

[Shaun]

It matters not how much cheaper they could be, theres always a price to be paid with cheapness. Poor performance and poor reliability.



of course! That was just me taking the piss at a person who tried so hard to rock the boat once,

[CookMySock]

unless they are trying to sell a budget crap knock off product that attempts to replicate years of resurch ...Cough, racetech didn't invent shim stack suspension valving, they copied it off off someone else actually.. Didn't they Robert.. :bleh:

I watched my Dad tuning shim stack suspension 30 years ago.

In all fairness, it was racetech that converted the technology into a simple consumer product (the emulator) that works.

Steve

[Robert Taylor]

Cough, racetech didn't invent shim stack suspension valving, they copied it off off someone else actually.. Didn't they Robert.. :bleh:

I watched my Dad tuning shim stack suspension 30 years ago.

In all fairness, it was racetech that converted the technology into a simple consumer product (the emulator) that works.

Steve

Exactly, I think it was the French? The emulator ( as opposed to bending shim stack pistons) doesnt use a shim stack as such and is for use with old style damper rods only. Bending shim stack piston kits are used to respec cartridges.
But the essence of what I was trying to say is that the cheap knock offs provide commensurately ''cheap'' performance and reliability.
Re SELF INSTALS it can very fairly be stated that the success of the job is to a large degree dependent on attention to detail. If the installer has the finesse of an elephant then the end result will be horrible. And whilst the instructions are reasonably explicit there is so much that is not detailed that can also impact on the success or otherwise of the job. Experience does count for a lot.

[Pixie]

...now 'es 'avin' a go at the Elephants:devil2:

[Shaun]

Exactly, I think it was the French? The emulator ( as opposed to bending shim stack pistons) doesnt use a shim stack as such and is for use with old style damper rods only. Bending shim stack piston kits are used to respec cartridges.
But the essence of what I was trying to say is that the cheap knock offs provide commensurately ''cheap'' performance and reliability.
Re SELF INSTALS it can very fairly be stated that the success of the job is to a large degree dependent on attention to detail. If the installer has the finesse of an elephant then the end result will be horrible. And whilst the instructions are reasonably explicit there is so much that is not detailed that can also impact on the success or otherwise of the job. Experience does count for a lot.


Self installations of the emulators is a piece of piss to a compitent fitter BUT

The only way to get the very very best out of them, is to fit them professionally/correctly, which does involve machine work of the Forks to Gauarantee that all faces are 100% Square/flat?true!

If this is not done, You are Not getting any where near the full benifit of your purchase ie, money spent.

Some times shopping at Farmers is better than the whare house for true Quality control, and if you are going to bother to try and improve your bike and make it safer, you may as well spend just a few more dollars and Guarantee succes!

[Viscount Montgomery]

WTF is so mysterious and tricky about dropping a pair of race-tec gold valve emulators into a pair of damper rod forks???? Stick the emulators onto the damper rod, check they're sitting flat, bung the springs on top and screw the effing fork caps back on. Repeat - WTF is difficult about that??? As for drilling the compression holes, again, WTF is the problem??? The emulators come with instructions showing any half-witted monkey what to do. Slam an 8mm bit in ya drill and ream the fuckers out. What's so effin' hard and hi-tech about all this????

[Shaun]

WTF is so mysterious and tricky about dropping a pair of race-tec gold valve emulators into a pair of damper rod forks???? Stick the emulators onto the damper rod, check they're sitting flat, bung the springs on top and screw the effing fork caps back on. Repeat - WTF is difficult about that??? As for drilling the compression holes, again, WTF is the problem??? The emulators come with instructions showing any half-witted monkey what to do. Slam an 8mm bit in ya drill and ream the fuckers out. What's so effin' hard and hi-tech about all this????


As you obviously fully understand engineering and proffesinal fitting work, carry on driver

[Viscount Montgomery]

There's nothing 'professional' about fitting emulators to damper forks, next we'll be getting advised to pay some parasite consultant to 'setup' the job because "only the professionals are qualified for the job" or some similar shyte..

[CookMySock]

Yeah emulators look simple enough. The original question was about cartridge valving.

Steve

[Shaun]

Yeah emulators look simple enough. The original question was about cartridge valving.

Steve


What and where is your original question mate?

[Shaun]

There's nothing 'professional' about fitting emulators to damper forks, next we'll be getting advised to pay some parasite consultant to 'setup' the job because "only the professionals are qualified for the job" or some similar shyte..


I look forward to reading more of your constructive intelligent posts dude, Not a bad start though after 25 posts

[lukemillar]

front fork springs that are appropriate to your personal height...

I don't doubt your experience but I found this comment curious!? Could you please elaborate?

Thanks
Luke

[dipshit]

WTF is so mysterious and tricky about dropping a pair of race-tec gold valve emulators into a pair of damper rod forks???? Stick the emulators onto the damper rod, check they're sitting flat, bung the springs on top and screw the effing fork caps back on.


There's nothing that much technical about refilling a sump with oil or refitting the bodywork either... but i have seen so called professional mechanics in NZ with their "she'll be right, number 8 wire, quick the rugby is on in 30 minutes" mentality make a hash of these too.

Whoever i get to work on the insides of my suspension will be someone that takes their work very seriously and professionally.

[Shaun]

I don't doubt your experience but I found this comment curious!? Could you please elaborate?

Thanks
Luke



TYPO mate, I think he meant to say WEIGHT- He does silly hours in the work shop and the internet

[Shaun]

There's nothing that much technical about refilling a sump with oil or refitting the bodywork either... but i have seen so called professional mechanics in NZ with their "she'll be right, number 8 wire, quick the rugby is on in 30 minutes" mentality make a hash of these too.

Whoever i get to work on the insides of my suspension will be someone that takes their work very seriously and professional.


well said Sport.

[dipshit]

I don't doubt your experience but I found this comment curious!? Could you please elaborate?

I would like to hear the correct answer myself... but i would guess it would be to do with that a taller rider say, would be sitting further back on the seat... thereby placing more of their weight further towards the back... thereby perhaps requiring a slightly heavier rear spring and/or lighter fork springs.

[Rodney007]

you guys are typical bikers lol, someones always right,

well you dont have to be a mechanic to rip out an engine and put one in,

but you may need a dynojet technicial to tune your powercammander!

EVEN IF YOUR AN OLD CU*T!!!!!!!

[mossy1200]

TYPO mate, I think he meant to say WEIGHT- He does silly hours in the work shop and the internet
RT did my forks a week ago and requested both weight and height for spring choice.I guess the height at which the weight is carried would effect the force on the front end.
Will have the onboard camera on this weekend so we can see the difference in front end from poorly installed emulators and a RT install.
The front end dive was very noticable from round three.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Jvd8zUPIXA round three old set up with poorly installed emulators and incorrect spring rate.First half is scrubbing tyres.Start half way in.Will post new footage after round four.

[Skunk]

You don't just drop emulators into the damper rods.

The oil control holes in the damper rod HAVE to be modified to suit the emulator and the weight etc of the bike and the oil being used. I have just been though this with RT and although the original setup was good we are still fine tuning it which means the oil control holes have been changed again - even though the emulator has not needed adjusting.

Knowing what must be done to the damper rods and what weight springs etc to put in the emulator is the expertise you are paying for.

[Viscount Montgomery]

This is such a crock of bullshit, we're talking about plain basic damper forks used on the roads on a common 'normal' everyday motorcycle, anyone telling me you need 'special' people with 'special' skills to bung in a pair of emulaters on an old outdated roadbike is talking sewerage. These 'paid experts' all seem to think everyone rides the latest and greatest hyper-sport machines at 160mph with their knees down on racetracks. My message to these self proclaimed experts is get your heads outta yer self-important backsides and come down and join the real world and stop treating joe public like we're all clueless morons lacking any common sense or practical ability...

[The Stranger]

stop treating joe public like we're all clueless morons lacking any common sense or practical ability...

Your posts do absolutely nothing to dispel the myth.

[tri boy]

This is such a crock of bullshit, we're talking about plain basic damper forks used on the roads on a common 'normal' everyday motorcycle, anyone telling me you need 'special' people with 'special' skills to bung in a pair of emulaters on an old outdated roadbike is talking sewerage. These 'paid experts' all seem to think everyone rides the latest and greatest hyper-sport machines at 160mph with their knees down on racetracks. My message to these self proclaimed experts is get your heads outta yer self-important backsides and come down and join the real world and stop treating joe public like we're all clueless morons lacking any common sense or practical ability...
Care to enlighten us with your knowledge on the subject.
And I hardly think guys like Shaun and RT are "self proclaimed". More like praised for their years of dedication to their similar, but different approaches to suspension work.
What do you do?
Deliver small goods? Carpenter?

[Skunk]

This is such a crock of bullshit, we're talking about plain basic damper forks used on the roads on a common 'normal' everyday motorcycle, anyone telling me you need 'special' people with 'special' skills to bung in a pair of emulaters on an old outdated roadbike is talking sewerage. These 'paid experts' all seem to think everyone rides the latest and greatest hyper-sport machines at 160mph with their knees down on racetracks. My message to these self proclaimed experts is get your heads outta yer self-important backsides and come down and join the real world and stop treating joe public like we're all clueless morons lacking any common sense or practical ability...
I'm no 'clueless moron'; I have seen my damper rods and have adjusted them with Robert Taylors advise. I know what standard ones look like too.

If you think all you do is drop emulators in and everything is fine then you wouldn't be able to find your arse with written directions.

Tell me you have and your forks are now great. If you can do that then your advise isn't worth the shit that comes out said arse.

[Shaun]

This is such a crock of bullshit, we're talking about plain basic damper forks used on the roads on a common 'normal' everyday motorcycle, anyone telling me you need 'special' people with 'special' skills to bung in a pair of emulaters on an old outdated roadbike is talking sewerage. These 'paid experts' all seem to think everyone rides the latest and greatest hyper-sport machines at 160mph with their knees down on racetracks. My message to these self proclaimed experts is get your heads outta yer self-important backsides and come down and join the real world and stop treating joe public like we're all clueless morons lacking any common sense or practical ability...



Ha Ha, you are O so funny, and obviously very intelligent:niceone:

Please stay on KB making a fool of your self, I am enjoying you being here, it is normally me or Drew making dicks of our selves


Love Ya Drew

[madbikeboy]

This is such a crock of bullshit, we're talking about plain basic damper forks used on the roads on a common 'normal' everyday motorcycle, anyone telling me you need 'special' people with 'special' skills to bung in a pair of emulaters on an old outdated roadbike is talking sewerage. These 'paid experts' all seem to think everyone rides the latest and greatest hyper-sport machines at 160mph with their knees down on racetracks. My message to these self proclaimed experts is get your heads outta yer self-important backsides and come down and join the real world and stop treating joe public like we're all clueless morons lacking any common sense or practical ability...

There's no difference between the stereo's at the Warehouse and my $30k system. Functionally, they do the same thing.

There's no real difference between a BMW and a Toyota, 4 wheels and all that.

There's no difference between a Versace suit, and a Barker's off the rack.

Keep posting - you'll give Carver a run for his money in the Village Idiot stakes...

[Robert Taylor]

This is such a crock of bullshit, we're talking about plain basic damper forks used on the roads on a common 'normal' everyday motorcycle, anyone telling me you need 'special' people with 'special' skills to bung in a pair of emulaters on an old outdated roadbike is talking sewerage. These 'paid experts' all seem to think everyone rides the latest and greatest hyper-sport machines at 160mph with their knees down on racetracks. My message to these self proclaimed experts is get your heads outta yer self-important backsides and come down and join the real world and stop treating joe public like we're all clueless morons lacking any common sense or practical ability...

Well..... with comments like that I sincerely hope you are neither an aircraft engineer or in any diplomatic corp. We are talking standards here and not only about the predisposition of some to espouse verbal sewerage and insults. But thats forums I guess, especially if doing so behind a shroud.
Most of my customers are like me very much in the real world, I treat them with respect and with very few exceptions thats reciprocated in kind. If someone is going to act like a moron then it will always be reciprocated in kind. Especially if they make stupid way off the mark assumptions. Most of my customers are also everyday road riders who dont travel at warp speeds and simply want suspension that is both more compliant and controlled.
Its all in the detail and just for you I will spell it out ( again ) but Im not giving all of my trade secrets away. Bear in mind also that I have over the years fitted literally thousands of valving kits and emulators so I think I can justifiably comment from that experience, which in any event was originally offered in the spirit of helping people.

When fitting emulators the truth of fitting and therefore sealing on the top rod is ( almost ) EVERYTHING. In greater than 80% or so of stock damper rod type forks the damper rod when torqued up does not sit concentric to the inner tube. That means that the top hat piston ring does not seal all the way round. That impacts primarily on a major loss of rebound damping control. So machining and careful clocking of the rod is always neccessary. Its seldom possible to attain perfection as often the rods are not straight! Springs are also seldom perfectly flat on their ends, so combine an off centre rod that is bent and whose sealing surface is not perpendicular to the inner tube with an unsquare spring....thats a further recipe for uncontrolled bleed. I favour as much as possible the emulator being a semi snug overlapping fit into the top hat of the rod.
Lower damping holes, adding extra. I dont favour this, especially with road bikes that have often only 120mm travel. I favour as much as possible enlarging the existing holes so that their total flow area just exceeds the internal bore size of the rod. If you have extra holes upwards of the existing you have just reduced the high speed rebound damping, not so much issue on a dirt fork with 300mm of travel, but a big issue on a damper rod fork that is being used for road racing in our budget level classes. Incidentally, there are still a good many new models with damper rod forks, we are not just talking old bikes.
Paul Thede ( owner / founder of Race Tech ) stayed at my house for a week approx 1 year ago. I had a conversation with him about the position of extra holes and he totally agreed with what I have said above. We pull apart more than a few forks that have had self instals and seen how these extra holes have been added, the scary part is that all too often the burrs have been dressed off in a grinder on the outside surface that is also a sealing surface! It passes in close proximity to a spring loaded check plate or fixed seal ring encapsulated in the bottom of the fork inner tube. This regulates / seals the flow path inbetween chambers. Many Yamaha forks are badly afflicted with poor sealing control in this area.
Traxxion Dynamics do among others replacement damper rods for SV650s, as so many of these bikes get raced. These damper rods are actually straight and true and will torque up into the forks concentrically! The piston ring recess is processed slightly less deeply so that the seal on the piston ring is improved. The rod diameter is also a little larger to improve the seal on the bottom chamber checkplate system. The bottom feed holes dont radiate up the rod and the rebound hole is carefully calibrated to work with a specific centistroke rating of oil, reference temperature 40 degrees celsius.
Poppet bypass bleed holes are reworked in size to suit the application, that is not in the attached literature.
Even with all of the careful machining, care of assembly etc that is never any guarantee that the rebound speed will be ''correct''. This is fine tuned in the end by the size of the rebound bleed hole. This often needs bronzing up with its attendant risk of rod distortion and reworked. It is also fine tuned by oil viscosity selection, and Im NOT talking SAE ratings, which are misleading. Silkolene 5 weight for example has the same approximate flow rate as most of the 10 weight oils. Many have come unstuck on that alone.
And then there are other examples that you have to be wary of, for example many Harleys have so much weight acting upon the ''raked out'' forks that the rebound speed on the push test has to feel a lot faster than the feel we get with most Japanese road bike forks.
If you are a one off installer how well developed is your perception of rebound feel, etc etc?????
And so on, I am pointing out that there are many fish hooks with installing emulators. As there are with cartridge piston kits.

[Robert Taylor]

I don't doubt your experience but I found this comment curious!? Could you please elaborate?

Thanks
Luke

Okay, 2 riders, both 85 kg, one is 6 feet tall and the other 5 feet 2 inches.

Effect on front: The taller rider will have more upper body weight that will cause the bike to pitch forward more under especially heavy braking.

Effect on rear: The taller rider will often sit slightly further back to actually fit the bike and that places a little more leverage on the rear end.

The real world effect can often be small or reasonably significant and then there is the often stated factor of ''rider feel'' or what they want.

Spring selection charts are a guideline, they are not gospel. When we go to a road race track and work with the top riders we take alternative spring options and test them. Rider feel and lap times and the two major pre-requisites, not ''THE'' numbers.

The difference is rear spring rate requirement on a GSXR1000K7 between rear axle fully forward to rear axle fully back is 1/2 a full spring rate. LEVERAGE.

[Fatjim]

What I think VM is getting tat is that the bits can be fitted by almost anybody. I'm not to sure if he was commenting, or cares, or even could tell about how well it works afterwards.

[Robert Taylor]

What I think VM is getting tat is that the bits can be fitted by almost anybody. I'm not to sure if he was commenting, or cares, or even could tell about how well it works afterwards.

Yes that is what he was saying but did he have to do so in a such a manner? If thats HIS real world then he can be happy with his low standards, I have merely spent a lot of time detailing the many fish hooks and undocumented issues to look for.

[JD Racing]

Well..... with comments like that I sincerely hope you are neither an aircraft engineer or in any diplomatic corp. We are talking standards here and not only about the predisposition of some to espouse verbal sewerage and insults. But thats forums I guess, especially if doing so behind a shroud.
Most of my customers are like me very much in the real world, I treat them with respect and with very few exceptions thats reciprocated in kind. If someone is going to act like a moron then it will always be reciprocated in kind. Especially if they make stupid way off the mark assumptions. Most of my customers are also everyday road riders who dont travel at warp speeds and simply want suspension that is both more compliant and controlled.
Its all in the detail and just for you I will spell it out ( again ) but Im not giving all of my trade secrets away. Bear in mind also that I have over the years fitted literally thousands of valving kits and emulators so I think I can justifiably comment from that experience, which in any event was originally offered in the spirit of helping people.

When fitting emulators the truth of fitting and therefore sealing on the top rod is ( almost ) EVERYTHING. In greater than 80% or so of stock damper rod type forks the damper rod when torqued up does not sit concentric to the inner tube. That means that the top hat piston ring does not seal all the way round. That impacts primarily on a major loss of rebound damping control. So machining and careful clocking of the rod is always neccessary. Its seldom possible to attain perfection as often the rods are not straight! Springs are also seldom perfectly flat on their ends, so combine an off centre rod that is bent and whose sealing surface is not perpendicular to the inner tube with an unsquare spring....thats a further recipe for uncontrolled bleed. I favour as much as possible the emulator being a semi snug overlapping fit into the top hat of the rod.
Lower damping holes, adding extra. I dont favour this, especially with road bikes that have often only 120mm travel. I favour as much as possible enlarging the existing holes so that their total flow area just exceeds the internal bore size of the rod. If you have extra holes upwards of the existing you have just reduced the high speed rebound damping, not so much issue on a dirt fork with 300mm of travel, but a big issue on a damper rod fork that is being used for road racing in our budget level classes. Incidentally, there are still a good many new models with damper rod forks, we are not just talking old bikes.
Paul Thede ( owner / founder of Race Tech ) stayed at my house for a week approx 1 year ago. I had a conversation with him about the position of extra holes and he totally agreed with what I have said above. We pull apart more than a few forks that have had self instals and seen how these extra holes have been added, the scary part is that all too often the burrs have been dressed off in a grinder on the outside surface that is also a sealing surface! It passes in close proximity to a spring loaded check plate or fixed seal ring encapsulated in the bottom of the fork inner tube. This regulates / seals the flow path inbetween chambers. Many Yamaha forks are badly afflicted with poor sealing control in this area.
Traxxion Dynamics do among others replacement damper rods for SV650s, as so many of these bikes get raced. These damper rods are actually straight and true and will torque up into the forks concentrically! The piston ring recess is processed slightly less deeply so that the seal on the piston ring is improved. The rod diameter is also a little larger to improve the seal on the bottom chamber checkplate system. The bottom feed holes dont radiate up the rod and the rebound hole is carefully calibrated to work with a specific centistroke rating of oil, reference temperature 40 degrees celsius.
Poppet bypass bleed holes are reworked in size to suit the application, that is not in the attached literature.
Even with all of the careful machining, care of assembly etc that is never any guarantee that the rebound speed will be ''correct''. This is fine tuned in the end by the size of the rebound bleed hole. This often needs bronzing up with its attendant risk of rod distortion and reworked. It is also fine tuned by oil viscosity selection, and Im NOT talking SAE ratings, which are misleading. Silkolene 5 weight for example has the same approximate flow rate as most of the 10 weight oils. Many have come unstuck on that alone.
And then there are other examples that you have to be wary of, for example many Harleys have so much weight acting upon the ''raked out'' forks that the rebound speed on the push test has to feel a lot faster than the feel we get with most Japanese road bike forks.
If you are a one off installer how well developed is your perception of rebound feel, etc etc?????
And so on, I am pointing out that there are many fish hooks with installing emulators. As there are with cartridge piston kits.

Robert makes some excellant points here, I end up finishing off lots of self installs that have gone wrong. In addition to the above, the most common "have a go yourself" fault is a complete lack of cleanliness, rods installed in dirty sliders, swarf inside the damper rod after drilling etc, other problems are not changing worn bushes whilst the forks are apart, new seals fitted to stone chipped stanchions, not shortening the preload tube.

Racetech make some good products but their philosophy that anyone can fit the stuff themselves is ludicrous, it also adds to the problem that Robert has spoken about many times where a builder can get bored with laying bricks, decide he's going to become a suspension tech, buy half a dozen kits of Racetech and bang he's in business.

[madbikeboy]

Well..... with comments like that I sincerely hope you are neither an aircraft engineer or in any diplomatic corp. We are talking standards here and not only about the predisposition of some to espouse verbal sewerage and insults. But thats forums I guess, especially if doing so behind a shroud.
....And so on, I am pointing out that there are many fish hooks with installing emulators. As there are with cartridge piston kits.

I think that has to be the nicest way I've ever seen "you're an idiot" written.

[Robert Taylor]

Robert makes some excellant points here, I end up finishing off lots of self installs that have gone wrong. In addition to the above, the most common "have a go yourself" fault is a complete lack of cleanliness, rods installed in dirty sliders, swarf inside the damper rod after drilling etc, other problems are not changing worn bushes whilst the forks are apart, new seals fitted to stone chipped stanchions, not shortening the preload tube.

Racetech make some good products but their philosophy that anyone can fit the stuff themselves is ludicrous, it also adds to the problem that Robert has spoken about many times where a builder can get bored with laying bricks, decide he's going to become a suspension tech, buy half a dozen kits of Racetech and bang he's in business.

Thanks JD. With respect to your second paragraph it pretty much mirrors what I have said to Paul Thede on a number of occassions.

[Shaun]

Thanks to Rob and JD for making this crystall clear to the people on here.

Safety is very very important to me, perhaps I should have used different words.

Not off subject, just high lighting the importance of doing these mode professionally

[pritch]

My message to these self proclaimed experts is get your heads outta yer self-important backsides and come down and join the real world and stop treating joe public like we're all clueless morons lacking any common sense or practical ability...

Some members of the public though seem to fall over themselves in their rush to look like clueless morons? :whistle:

As a matter of interest, do you actually have a clue as to who these "self proclaimed" experts are? A little time with the Search facility could prove enlightening. :sherlock: Or then again...

[HenryDorsetCase]

I know when I took my LC forks apart there was $1 of 20cent coins in each fork leg

did you play some spacies, au?

[Shaun]

Some members of the public though seem to fall over themselves in their rush to look like clueless morons? :whistle:

As a matter of interest, do you actually have a clue as to who these "self proclaimed" experts are? A little time with the Search facility could prove enlightening. :sherlock: Or then again...


Carefull mate, you will recieve a red rep for taking this off subject

[Robert Taylor]

Carefull mate, you will recieve a red rep for taking this off subject

I think the infraction you received for earlier comments in this thread were well worth the price, you stated the bleeding obvious.
On subject, if anyone has any questions about emulator installation I am happy to answer.

[dipshit]

What I think VM is getting tat is that the bits can be fitted by almost anybody. I'm not to sure if he was commenting, or cares, or even could tell about how well it works afterwards.

And here lies the problem with your typical NZ motorcycle mechanic.

As a consumer I would want them installed and tuned in a way that would improve the handling of my bike as best as possible in order to actually get value for money from purchasing the bits in the first place.

Too many mechanics think that simply fitting the parts and having no oil leaks and the forks still go up and down when he pushes on the bars afterwards is a successful job and he can go make the bill up.

[Pixie]

What I think VM is getting tat is that the bits can be fitted by almost anybody. I'm not to sure if he was commenting, or cares, or even could tell about how well it works afterwards.

Me,I uses a brick an' a chisel to doos me mechanicin'

[Shaun]

And here lies the problem with your typical NZ motorcycle mechanic.

As a consumer I would want them installed and tuned in a way that would improve the handling of my bike as best as possible in order to actually get value for money from purchasing the bits in the first place.

Too many mechanics think that simply fitting the parts and having no oil leaks and the forks still go up and down when he pushes on the bars afterwards is a successful job and he can go make the bill up.



I understand what you are saying here mate BUT, mechanics are just that Mechanics only, they are not trained Fitters as such, am sure you understand what I am saying there. ( some of them are, out of dedication to there work) NOT JUST A JOB!

A Trained Mechanic to do Fitting work is great, but need the thourough training of the product they are dealing with, so as to maximise the safety and performance of the product.

Race tech build and sell a fantastic product, but have pushed the barrow a little, re, jo blog fitting them! That really is a marketing tool for them to increase sales.

If Robert ( CKT) was not so thourough with there assembly practise, and learned of the potentuall loss issues with just any one fitting them, there product would never have been as great as what it actually is.

I have won NZ Titles using Race tech stuff, and Jason Mccewan only ever liked to race usin Race Tech kitted forks.

So, the product is fantastic, but not maximised untill professionally fitted.

[dipshit]

So, the product is fantastic, but not maximised untill professionally fitted.

Precisely. But would this stop a local mechanic from taking the job on if i asked him if he was up to fitting them? What would he care if i got maximum performance or not? So long as his workshop got a job and he gets to make another bill up. He would probably automatically say "yes, we can do that"

[Robert Taylor]

And here lies the problem with your typical NZ motorcycle mechanic.

As a consumer I would want them installed and tuned in a way that would improve the handling of my bike as best as possible in order to actually get value for money from purchasing the bits in the first place.

Too many mechanics think that simply fitting the parts and having no oil leaks and the forks still go up and down when he pushes on the bars afterwards is a successful job and he can go make the bill up.

Actually, there is precious little in the training syllabus beyond replacing seals and setting oil level.
Arguably it has become a trade in itself. Then we can get beyond the deriding self proclaimed jibes.

[Sidewinder]

i herd it was the suspension that makes your ride better and faster but have the right tyres!

[Robert Taylor]

Precisely. But would this stop a local mechanic from taking the job on if i asked him if he was up to fitting them? What would he care if i got maximum performance or not? So long as his workshop got a job and he gets to make another bill up. He would probably automatically say "yes, we can do that"

Thankfully theres choice. You can see through the limitations but many think its just a straightforward job, which it is not.
BTW to anyone reading this, if we do a job ( be it with Ohlins, Race Tech or whatever ) and you subsequently think the selected spring rate is not quite right for you or the valving action is a little ''off'' we correct it at no further charge sans courier costs. Everyone is different with the perception of what they want, therefore valving and springing reccommendations are just a guideline only.

[Robert Taylor]

Me,I uses a brick an' a chisel to doos me mechanicin'

Many have said so, allegedly!!

[Robert Taylor]

i herd it was the suspension that makes your ride better and faster but have the right tyres!

Good suspension also means that when you fall off it will be at a higher speed.

[Sidewinder]

Good suspension also means that when you fall off it will be at a higher speed.

and good rubber will mean you will have a greater chance of a highside!!!!!!
i like that idea

[Shaun]

Good suspension also means that when you fall off it will be at a higher speed.


WOW, is all I can say to that one mate:2guns:

[Sidewinder]

WOW, is all I can say to that one mate:2guns:

mmm be nice to have self tunning suspension

[mossy1200]

Me,I uses a brick an' a chisel to doos me mechanicin'


Many have said so, allegedly!!

Please bring thy magic brick and chisel to track on Saturday to fine tune my steed Robert.Garage 12

[HenryDorsetCase]

Me,I uses a brick an' a chisel to doos me mechanicin'

thats cos you're a professional. We amateurs have to use sticks and rocks and fire. A lot of fire.

[mossy1200]

Thanks RT for the final fine tune and check up on front end at track.
Can confirm front end is awesome and well worth the money spent on getting it done correctly.Lap times two seconds faster than last long track effort.

[alm8@hotmail.co.nz]

Race tech have taken alot of guess work out of it for you when they recommend settings based on your details. This is a good starting point especially if you are doing all the valves at the same time. But, Its not quick nor simple to do the job or analyse what the feedback the bike is giving you means in terms of shim stack arrangement. Race Tech suspension tuning bible is a great insight to all of this.

[Robert Taylor]

Race tech have taken alot of guess work out of it for you when they recommend settings based on your details. This is a good starting point especially if you are doing all the valves at the same time. But, Its not quick nor simple to do the job or analyse what the feedback the bike is giving you means in terms of shim stack arrangement. Race Tech suspension tuning bible is a great insight to all of this.


The reality is that sometimes the settings are okay but also they are sometimes ''off the wall''. Our suspension dyno certainly sifts through what is on the money and what isn't.
Brutally, the biggest problem with self instal is that too many people have the finesse of an elephant. I make no apologies in saying that because we evidence this on a near daily basis

[NordieBoy]

Yep, their recommend DR650 settings are totally "off the wall".

[Robert Taylor]

Yep, their recommend DR650 settings are totally "off the wall".

Yes but thats not an issue with experience and equipment.

We investigated Intiminators amid all of the so typical Yankee hype ( that is always prevalent ) and we were less than impressed with those. There are possibilities to make something that is a lot better but so much of it is down to cost and to that end nasty compromises are always evident.

[NordieBoy]

Cogent ( www.motocd.com ) are doing their own "emulators" now that they say are better than RaceTech or Ricor's ones.

[pete-blen]

Cogent ( www.motocd.com ) are doing their own "emulators" now that they say are better than RaceTech or Ricor's ones.

I used the NZ made ones in my XR

[NordieBoy]

Not pete-blen specials?

[Robert Taylor]

Cogent ( www.motocd.com ) are doing their own "emulators" now that they say are better than RaceTech or Ricor's ones.

Yes they look interesting. The Intiminator ''valving'' is frankly a joke. It looks like Cogent have proper deflective shim stacks. While I havent analysed these thoroughly where they all fail is they rely on spring pressure to hold them onto the top of the damper rod ( whose top surface is very rarely totally perpendicular to the centreline of the fork ) With Intiminators you can hear them ''clack'' as they unseat.

[pete-blen]

Not pete-blen specials?

yep those are the ones.... could never get the return damping right..
to limited on springs for the valve plate with the internal space..
compression damping was easy...

[mossy1200]

Interesting stuff:shit:

[Robert Taylor]

yep those are the ones.... could never get the return damping right..
to limited on springs for the valve plate with the internal space..
compression damping was easy...

Yes, we know whats required re the return damping , but divulging that knowledge ( from hard experience ) is a line we will not cross.

[pete-blen]

Yes, we know whats required re the return damping , but divulging that knowledge ( from hard experience ) is a line we will not cross.

god dam man... chill out...
I was in fact replying to Nordie.... I don't recall asking for secret squirrel info...

[Drew]

god dam man... chill out...
I was in fact replying to Nordie.... I don't recall asking for secret squirrel info...The good Dr tends to be wound tighter than a piano string, and busier than a one legged man in an arse kicking contest.

We make concessions, he's a tortured soul.

[Robert Taylor]

god dam man... chill out...
I was in fact replying to Nordie.... I don't recall asking for secret squirrel info...

No you didn't but I was pointing out that it was fixable.