A question to IT KBers - what are prospects of finding an IT job in Auckland?

[Street Gerbil]

After being stuck in a very narrow ecological niche for 10 years, and
becoming highly specialized in a very specific area of business
knowledge only a few companies in the world might be interested in,
I found myself at risk of becoming a corporate dinosaur (you know, like
experience with COBOL and C/C++ etc).
Do you guys believe that it is possible to find an employer willing to mentor me and let me grow into 21st century (Java/J2EE, .NET, and suchlike) or do you know of anyone seeking a person with experience in supporting large scale projects at all stages of SDLC? Please feel free to speculate or PM. There will be beer, I promise.

[jrandom]

C/C++ etc

You're wrong to think that C++ is somehow 'out of date', given that the vast majority of the world's systems software is still being written in it. It just depends what kind of industry you want to work in.


21st century (Java/J2EE, .NET, and suchlike)

So I take it you're an experienced programmer, but have no experience with the language products of the last decade?

Just spend a couple of weeks dumping some relevant books into your brain and then rock up to interviews. You might have to take a salary hit if you're moving to a job using products you haven't done real projects in before, but it shouldn't be too bad.

Heck, it's not as though there's no work out there for C++ programmers. I needed a new day job at the beginning of this year, had no interest in moving to any of that J2wossname webby bullshit, and it took me just on a month to find a decent permanent contract.

The programming tools you mention there have fairly specialised applications. They're not 'taking over' general-purpose software development; they just apply to certain types of product, so don't panic if you find yourself not ever using them.

[dhunt]

You're wrong to think that C++ is somehow 'out of date', given that the vast majority of the world's systems software is still being written in it. It just depends what kind of industry you want to work in.

Yeah I'll agree with jrandom on this. We use C pretty much exclusively in our products here. All embedded stuff.

I had to learn C# recently to make a basic GUI app to interface to our embedded product and like mostly languages once you learn one language it is easy to learn the basics of another language.

It depends really on what sort of job you are after. I'm sure you'll have no problem finding jobs doing C/C++ programming if that's what you want to do. But if you want to do something slightly different it's not hard to pickup a new language. Personally I prefer C to C#/java although I do enjoy doing the odd perl script :laugh:.

[scracha]

C....dinasaurs. Whit? You won't find Java or much C++ in embedded apps.
C# and .net framework.....why bother...in a few years it'll be about as useful as knowing MFC & ATL.

You'll pickup Java pretty quickly if you're familiar with C++. Uni's use it now so that $hit lecturers don't get confused with things like pointers and memory allocation.

[enigma51]

Uni's use it now so that $hit lecturers don't get confused with things like pointers and memory allocation.

And make it harder for people to find desent coders!

[dhunt]

C# and .net framework.....why bother...in a few years it'll be about as useful as knowing MFC & ATL.

Yes and no. C# seems to be gaining momentum with the open source crowd via the mono project. So being able to run the same app on Windoze,Linux and Mac OS in theory will definitely help it a long.

[aroberts]

I agree with most of the above. If you know C++ you will pick up Java. Just get a book, do some playing around at home and then be honest with a new employer.

The fact that you know development (i.e. the SDLC) and have taught yourself Java will be a drawcard for some employers.

[scracha]

Coding is a fucked industry anyway. Half my mates are managing software teams in Bangalore and Eastern Europe. The other half are on the dole.

Ho home...happy hacking all.

[xwhatsit]

Yes and no. C# seems to be gaining momentum with the open source crowd via the mono project. So being able to run the same app on Windoze,Linux and Mac OS in theory will definitely help it a long.
Errrr.... Java?

The point's moot anyway, all of these JIT-style things end up in the real world running about as slow as interpreted Python anyway. You can show me all the benchmarks you like, but in my small still-at-uni brain, nothing can touch ASM/C/C++ yet for anything serious.

[imdying]

C# and .net framework.....why bother...in a few years it'll be about as useful as knowing MFC & ATL.There's whole heap of MFC stuff still out there en masse... one of the largest courier companies in NZ has recently installed a new system with a lot of MFC components. .NET is firmly embedded into the corporate world on many levels, it won't disappear overnight... Look at COBOL, we're still supporting that crap.


The point's moot anyway, all of these JIT-style things end up in the real world running about as slow as interpreted Python anyway. You can show me all the benchmarks you like, but in my small still-at-uni brain, nothing can touch ASM/C/C++ yet for anything serious.Hahahahahah, so much to learn....

[jrandom]

The point's moot anyway, all of these JIT-style things end up in the real world running about as slow as interpreted Python anyway.

In the 'real world', it's cheap as chips to double the processing power of a server, and hellishly expensive to double the development time of a project.

You do the math.

:sunny:

[xwhatsit]

In the 'real world', it's cheap as chips to double the processing power of a server, and hellishly expensive to double the development time of a project.

You do the math.

:sunny:
And that's why I'm still the small-brained student and you're the one with the real-world experience :laugh:

Might explain the performance of the msc.exe compiler -- to save money, they wrote it in Ruby <_<

Street Gerbil should wait for the Y10K bug to surface, then pull out that COBOL experience again...

[scracha]

And that's why I'm still the small-brained student and you're the one with the real-world experience :laugh:


Yeah mate, I spent fuggin weeks knocking up interfaces in Visual C++. Then the management decided to let the visual basic guys do the front end. Fark, it was knocked up in about 1/6 of the time. I guess using the most appropriate tool for the job comes with experience. Knock the code up and if it's too slow then just optimise a few of the subroutines or make some assembley language calls. The old 80/20 rule apples

I must get around to learning VB.

[vifferman]

And make it harder for people to find desent coders!
A prerequisite for decent coders should be an ability to spell, (or at least to misspell consistently, I guess).
Reminds me of the first software company I worked for - there was one set of programs we had problems with (when editing or searching for them), as the first word of each program name was "RECIEVE".

[avgas]

In the 'real world', it's cheap as chips to double the processing power of a server, and hellishly expensive to double the development time of a project.

You do the math.

:sunny:
I understand that, but what i dont understand is why the hell does Microsoft like "discontinuing" API's !?????
Its fucking awesome when you get 2/3rds the way through a project only to find the API you have been basing on is now non-existent in windows.

[imdying]

I understand that, but what i dont understand is why the hell does Microsoft like "discontinuing" API's !?????
Its fucking awesome when you get 2/3rds the way through a project only to find the API you have been basing on is now non-existent in windows.
Can you a cite an example? The APIs don't actually go anywhere...

[Street Gerbil]

Can you a cite an example? The APIs don't actually go anywhere...
Actually I can see where he is coming from. Remember how System.getenv() has suddenly become deprecated in java 1.4.2 and undeprecated back in 1.5.0?


first word of each program name was "RECIEVE"
Well, I have to admit RECEIVE and RETRIEVE are my favorite nightmare words from hell. But at least I have mitigating circumstances: I am not an English speaker.

[scracha]

A prerequisite for decent coders should be an ability to spell, (or at least to misspell consistently, I guess).
Reminds me of the first software company I worked for - there was one set of programs we had problems with (when editing or searching for them), as the first word of each program name was "RECIEVE".

Ye gads, a pedantic paleontologist programmer is in our midst.

[scracha]

Actually I can see where he is coming from. Remember how System.getenv() has suddenly become deprecated in java 1.4.2 and undeprecated back in 1.5.0?
That's what preprocessor macros are for innit :baby:

[Street Gerbil]

That's what preprocessor macros are for innit :baby:
Oh, and how exactly do you prevent their values from being visible in the process list?

[-df-]

After being stuck in a very narrow ecological niche for 10 years, and
becoming highly specialized in a very specific area of business
knowledge only a few companies in the world might be interested in,
I found myself at risk of becoming a corporate dinosaur (you know, like
experience with COBOL and C/C++ etc).
Do you guys believe that it is possible to find an employer willing to mentor me and let me grow into 21st century (Java/J2EE, .NET, and suchlike) or do you know of anyone seeking a person with experience in supporting large scale projects at all stages of SDLC? Please feel free to speculate or PM. There will be beer, I promise.

if you have experience in C++ and want to get into .NET their are alot of companies that are coverting their code to .NET. I know of one in albany that is hiring at the moment.

Just remember .NET is a M$ thing so as long as there is Windows...there will be .NET (within reason)

I got into C# from C++ by jumping teams within a company (after teaching myself)...seems to be the best way if its a posibility.

Good luck!!

[imdying]

Anyone that knows C++ should be able to hose through C# :yes:

Framework is lovely, does most of your work for you :D

[enigma51]

A prerequisite for decent coders should be an ability to spell, (or at least to misspell consistently, I guess).
Reminds me of the first software company I worked for - there was one set of programs we had problems with (when editing or searching for them), as the first word of each program name was "RECIEVE".

Since when do you need to be able to spell to wright desent code

I rather have 1 non speller that can code than one that cant wright code for shit!

[Cajun]

Since when do you need to be able to spell to wright desent code

I rather have 1 non speller that can code than one that cant wright code for shit!


i concur i am disylex, and a coder.

[jrandom]

Since when do you need to be able to spell to wright desent code

It's not a matter of direct causality; the simple fact is that a high level of literacy is correlated with high general intelligence.

Being able to 'write code' is only a tiny first step towards being able to design and implement robust and efficient solutions to complex software problems.

I would never hire anyone into one of my teams who was lazy and/or stupid enough to be sloppy in the written communication of their native language.

[enigma51]

i concur i am disylex, and a coder.

I cant spell for shit but yet i manage to write code


how is it possible? :gob:

[enigma51]

It's not a matter of direct causality; the simple fact is that a high level of literacy is correlated with high general intelligence.

Being able to 'write code' is only a tiny first step towards being able to design and implement robust and efficient solutions to complex software problems.

I would never hire anyone into one of my teams who was lazy and/or stupid enough to be sloppy in the written communication of their native language.

My native language aint english! :eek5:


and on your comment

the simple fact is that a high level of literacy is correlated with high general intelligence.


BULL FUCKIN SHIT!

[Cajun]

It's not a matter of direct causality; the simple fact is that a high level of literacy is correlated with high general intelligence.

Being able to 'write code' is only a tiny first step towards being able to design and implement robust and efficient solutions to complex software problems.

I would never hire anyone into one of my teams who was lazy and/or stupid enough to be sloppy in the written communication of their native language.

I had speech problems as a kid, there are words this day i can not say. you have meet me you would have noticed i also talk fast, this is also due to my speech problems.

I can read words find, i just can't put them down correctly.

This does not stop me knowning 20+ programming languages fluently

My spelling has got better since i have been in a business environment, but still not great. Some very smart, rich men/woman can't read/write very well today some very smart people thru out history couldn't either.

[jrandom]

i manage to write code

how is it possible? :gob:

There's code, and then there's code...

One of the above sorts of 'code' is the reason for budget blowouts, company failures and the general perception of computers as piles of unusable shite.


the simple fact is that a high level of literacy is correlated with high general intelligence.

BULL FUCKIN SHIT!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_and_thought

Literacy and general cognitive capacity are inextricably intertwined. National literacy rates are, in fact, generally used to estimate national average IQs.

Before you yell 'bullshit' at that again, go check out the data for yourself. Go find me one single psych study showing that literacy is not correlated with IQ.

[Drunken Monkey]

My native language aint english! :eek5:


and on your comment

the simple fact is that a high level of literacy is correlated with high general intelligence.


BULL FUCKIN SHIT!

If you're not stupid, you must just be lazy. I agree with JRandom.

[jrandom]

I had speech problems as a kid, there are words this day i can not say. you have meet me you would have noticed i also talk fast, this is also due to my speech problems.

There's a big difference between diagnosable speech/reading disabilities and general illiteracy.

:hug:

Also, I never implied that literacy or cognitive capacity is an infallible predictor of material success in life.

I just implied that a lack of literacy (not counting speech disabilities, etc) almost always implies a lack of cognitive capacity, which implies that the person is not well suited to computer programming as a profession.

I hate to be a PC party pooper, but it's true.

[enigma51]

I had speech problems as a kid, there are words this day i can not say. you have meet me you would have noticed i also talk fast, this is also due to my speech problems.

I can read words find, i just can't put them down correctly.

This does not stop me knowning 20+ programming languages fluently

My spelling has got better since i have been in a business environment, but still not great. Some very smart, rich men/woman can't read/write very well today some very smart people thru out history couldn't either.

The name Jon Britten comes to mind ...... according to JRandom statement he must be an idiot


I never could spell properly and putting words in the correct order ..... time waster for me cause no matter how times i look at a sentence it always look the same

So i tend to write like I speak (according to my wife) which is apparently wrong as well ...... go figure

[enigma51]

There's a big difference between diagnosable speech/reading disabilities and general illiteracy.

:hug:

Also, I never implied that literacy or cognitive capacity is an infallible predictor of material success in life.

I just implied that a lack of literacy (not counting speech disabilities, etc) almost always implies a lack of cognitive capacity, which implies that the person is not well suited to computer programming as a profession.

I hate to be a PC party pooper, but it's true.

Mate your full of shit if you believe the crap you just spoke


I know some people are very well educated in the english language and they are still idiots!

[Cajun]

The name Jon Britten comes to mind ...... according to JRandom statement he must be an idiot


I never could spell properly and putting words in the correct order ..... time waster for me cause no matter how times i look at a sentence it always look the same

So i tend to write like I speak (according to my wife) which is apparently wrong as well ...... go figure

when i read books, i put extra words in them automatically so my head understands them better.

[enigma51]

So let me get this right

If you cant spell or have the ability to write what is considered proper english your either lazy or a idiot and should not work in IT

JRandom the reason why IT budget always get blown out is not because of people who cant spell or put sentences togethar.

[jrandom]

Mate your full of shit if you believe the crap you just spoke

I know some people are very well educated in the english language and they are still idiots!

Being able to write computer programs well is a particular skill, which there are particular indicators of the likelihood of. An affinity for those particular mental gymnastics has no general bearing on the rest of one's life.

Fact is, after just under a decade in the biz, I've never seen a good software engineer who wasn't also good at written communication with other people. The ones who had difficulty expressing themselves also appeared to have difficulty dealing with formal logic representing multiple layers of abstraction.

I'm not drawing any further conclusions from those observations, just reporting what I've seen.

[Fatjim]

So let me get this right

If you cant spell or have the ability to write what is considered proper english your either lazy or a idiot and should not work in IT

JRandom the reason why IT budget always get blown out is not because of people who cant spell or put sentences togethar.

"Never, in the field of human endeavour has so little been done, by so many, for so much, so poorly, as in IT."

[jrandom]

If you cant spell or have the ability to write what is considered proper english your either lazy or a idiot

Yup. Nail on head.

Unless you're still learning English, of course. Just apply the principle to whatever language you claim to speak fluently.

[enigma51]

Being able to write computer programs well is a particular skill, which there are particular indicators of the likelihood of. An affinity for those particular mental gymnastics has no general bearing on the rest of one's life.

Fact is, after just under a decade in the biz, I've never seen a good software engineer who wasn't also good at written communication with other people. The ones who had difficulty expressing themselves also appeared to have difficulty dealing with formal logic representing multiple layers of abstraction.

I'm not drawing any further conclusions from those observations, just reporting what I've seen.

Communicating with other people has no bearing on spelling. As long as i get what the person is trying to get accros I realy dont give a shit if he can or can not spell.

[enigma51]

"Never, in the field of human endeavour has so little been done, by so many, for so much, so poorly, as in IT."

Thats cause of arrogant people like JRandom who believe they are fucking special!

[jrandom]

Communicating with other people has no bearing on spelling. As long as i get what the person is trying to get accros I realy dont give a shit if he can or can not spell.

It's nothing personal. I don't like or dislike people based on how they spell.

I'm reporting on a correlation I've observed between quality of written communication and ability to write computer programs.

[enigma51]

It's nothing personal. I don't like or dislike people based on how they spell.

I'm reporting on a correlation I've observed between quality of written communication and ability to write computer programs.

and I have a serious issue with people like you in the IT industry.

Arrogant people who think they are Gods

[vifferman]

Ye gads, a pedantic paleontologist programmer is in our midst.
Nup. Used to be sort of a programmer, but haven't done any for at least 10 years. Paleontology? Hmmm... I do happen to have some geological education (6 years at a tertiary institution, or thereabouts).

Since when do you need to be able to spell to wright desent code
That's not what I said - I said, "it should be a prerequisite" to at least misspell consistently. Makes things tidier and all that.
Besides, you obviously ignored my disclaimer/signature. Everything I write is bollocks, usually impeccably spelled, except when I choose to mangle it.


i concur i am disylex, and a coder.
Yeah, but you're different, or summat.

I had speech problems as a kid, there are words this day i can not say. you have meet me you would have noticed i also talk fast, this is also due to my speech problems.
I thought it was hyperactivity, too much "V" or summat...

Some very smart, rich men/woman can't read/write very well today some very smart people thru out history couldn't either.
Fairy Nuff. I'll let you off this one time (in band camp).

There's code, and then there's code...

One of the above sorts of 'code' is the reason for budget blowouts, company failures and the general perception of computers as piles of unusable shite.

That was the generalisation I plucked out of the air, or my arse, or summat. Glad someone else thinks that - makes me look slightly less of a plonker for making such sweeping generalisations.


Literacy and general cognitive capacity are inextricably intertwined. National literacy rates are, in fact, generally used to estimate national average IQs.

Before you yell 'bullshit' at that again, go check out the data for yourself. Go find me one single psych study showing that literacy is not correlated with IQ.
Yeahorright.

[jrandom]

and I have a serious issue with people like you in the IT industry.

Arrogant people who think they are Gods

Geh.

If it offends you that I pointed out that all the people I've met in my life who can't spell have been fairly thick, and that thick people don't make good programmers, I'm not quite sure what I can do about that, because it's true.

:pinch:

[Cajun]

Yeah, but you're different, or summat. always knew i was different



I thought it was hyperactivity, too much "V" or summat... nah i don't drink v's very often now



Fairy Nuff. I'll let you off this one time (in band camp). check out -> http://www.torsopants.com/bandgeekhero

[jrandom]

The name Jon Britten comes to mind ...... according to JRandom statement he must be an idiot

You've read the Tim Hanna biography?

I'm pretty sure that Britten would have made a fuckin' awful computer programmer.

[imdying]

The name Jon Britten comes to mind ...... according to JRandom statement he must be an idiot


I never could spell properly and putting words in the correct order ..... time waster for me cause no matter how times i look at a sentence it always look the same

So i tend to write like I speak (according to my wife) which is apparently wrong as well ...... go figure

You're taking his statement as an absolute, which as he's clearly pointed out, it isn't. Fact is, it is used as an indicator, as he said.

[-df-]

It's not a matter of direct causality; the simple fact is that a high level of literacy is correlated with high general intelligence.

what a load of crap...

Based on what you have said you must have a low level of literacy...considering I've seen and had to work with your code.

Get off ya high horse

EDIT: I've seen some good code you have produced....but I've also seen some shockers.

[jrandom]

I've seen and had to work with your code.

Small world, eh? What project(s) would that be on, then?


I've seen some good code you have produced....but I've also seen some shockers.

I never claimed anything in particular about myself. You gotta try and read my statements on this subject without taking it personally or looking to 'take me down a peg'. I'm just reporting on what I've observed.

Goodness knows I've learned and grown over the years.

I'd be fascinated to hear your comments in detail...

[enigma51]

A good programmer (embedded or "general") is someone with the ability to look at all the issues and make decisions that will give the required outcome and more. If those issues are related to the limitations of the coding language then a good programmer will find a way to make it work. If its a hardware issue (ex 32bit memory allocation) then a good programmer has the ability to overcome those issues.

Everthing else is a plus.

I have worked with people who have perfect english written and spoken but yet there ability to problem solve is about as good as 5 year old. On the other side of the scale is people that i have worked with who's english (or native language) written skills are way shiter than mine but yet they are some of the most inteligent people i have ever met.

the one thing i have found is (espically amongst english speaking people) that the better the english the more arrogant the person.

[enigma51]

what a load of crap...

Based on what you have said you must have a low level of literacy...considering I've seen and had to work with your code.

Get off ya high horse

EDIT: I've seen some good code you have produced....but I've also seen some shockers.

I would put money on the fact that JRandom's code is one of those where a simple printf("Hallo world"); becomes a 1000 line piece of code.

[jrandom]

I would put money on the fact that JRandom's code is one of those where a simple printf("Hallo world"); becomes a 1000 line piece of code.

Except I'd spell it 'hello'.

:lol:

[enigma51]

Except I'd spell it 'hello'.

:lol:

Okay that is funny i will give that one!

[avgas]

I'm reporting on a correlation I've observed between quality of written communication and ability to write computer programs.
Can retards write programs? Shit i thought they only made Java games?

[enigma51]

Classical case of spelling being no use in coding

Hallo is a salutation or greeting in the German language

Which mean even though Hallo is german your could still undertand it!

[enigma51]

Can retards write programs? Shit i thought they only made Java games?

dont forget java websites!

[avgas]

Can you a cite an example? The APIs don't actually go anywhere...
Been a while - but last one i recall was i lost some serial comms stuff (it was 5 years ago).
Then NETBUEI went by-by.
have always scraped through though - internet is fulla people who are smarter than I. I leave the PC on occasion to get pussy and do manly things.
Oh and while im here talking about crap i hate....
Fuck PROTOCOLS!

[jrandom]

Been a while - but last one i recall was i lost some serial comms stuff (it was 5 years ago).
Then NETBUEI went by-by.

Be grateful, that shit keeps us in a job auw.

If everything worked properly and didn't need changing we'd have to go do some real work for a living instead.

[avgas]

dont forget java websites!
yep some dumbass things float out their in the web:

- "Should i make my website completely flash?"

- ' Array_1[your entire memory] ' - thanks JAVA

- Code with no description at all

- H-Code with an H-List, P-list.....

- "I have an idea - i will build my website starting with a Table"

- Programs written WITHOUT a flow diagram, then fixed, then debugged, then fixed, then compiled, then fixed, then built, the released only to find the whole thing could be half as many lines if you just did it right from the start (and did a plan first).

- I have an HMI, now how do i do the rest of the code.

[avgas]

Be grateful, that shit keeps us in a job auw.

If everything worked properly and didn't need changing we'd have to go do some real work for a living instead.
Lol its funny how right you are.......i no longer do much programming as i found myself out of work

[enigma51]

yep some dumbass things float out their in the web:

- "Should i make my website completely flash?"

- ' Array_1[your entire memory] ' - thanks JAVA

- Code with no description at all

- H-Code with an H-List, P-list.....

- "I have an idea - i will build my website starting with a Table"

- Programs written WITHOUT a flow diagram, then fixed, then debugged, then fixed, then compiled, then fixed, then built, the released only to find the whole thing could be half as many lines if you just did it right from the start (and did a plan first).

- I have an HMI, now how do i do the rest of the code.

I have managed to stay well clear of web development for a long time

Now every CIO and IT architect think web apps are the way to go :angry2:


Why is it that in the IT industry there is so much new buzz things out there for example Web 2.0
I love sitting in meeting hearing some idoit go and on about how we need to be Web 2.0 compliant blah blah blah. I usauly bring the meeting to an end with one simple question.
"Can you please explain what you think Web 2.0 is?"

[Ixion]

I never yet did work with a compiler that returned messages like "Variable not declared - but I figured out what you meant, you just mis-spelled it" .As someone who has spent literally a week debugging to find the mis-spelled variable name that caused a hideous intermittent bug, I'd certainly say that an ability to spell, or mis-spell CONSISTENTLY is essential. Or at least an ability to review each line as it's written and correct errors.

[Ixion]

..
"Can you please explain what you think Web 2.0 is?"

I wish someone would tell me what it is . For practical purposes.

And I am determined to strangle the next person who says "Web Services"

[jrandom]

And I am determined to strangle the next person who says "Web Services"

I think Web 2.0 is anything that doesn't work unless you have 5TB/s bandwidth everywhere along the way.

[-df-]

I never claimed anything in particular about myself. You gotta try and read my statements on this subject without taking it personally or looking to 'take me down a peg'. I'm just reporting on what I've observed.

Goodness knows I've learned and grown over the years.

I'd be fascinated to hear your comments in detail...

lol, never took it personally...if I did I'd have to admit you are correct...which I don't.

I myself think English is the lest important thing in the world...as long as I know enough to express myself and my ideas I'm happy. I prefer to concentrate on things that matter to me (science, tech etc). What’s important to you may not be important to the next person.

I just think you are being small minded is all, sure this could fit to some people...but with the way you are looking at things, does that mean all Muslims are terrorists? All Americans are redneck morons? I think not.

Will PM ya in a min about the rest.

Anyway....I'm sure you will find lots of mistakes in the above...but do I care? no.

[imdying]

I never yet did work with a compiler that returned messages like "Variable not declared - but I figured out what you meant, you just mis-spelled it" .As someone who has spent literally a week debugging to find the mis-spelled variable name that caused a hideous intermittent bug, I'd certainly say that an ability to spell, or mis-spell CONSISTENTLY is essential. Or at least an ability to review each line as it's written and correct errors.A good IDE will save you from most of that sort of bother. Doing much by hand these days is a pretty poor use of time.

[jrandom]

lol, never took it personally...if I did I'd have to admit you are correct...which I don't.

I myself think English is the lest important thing in the world...as long as I know enough to express myself and my ideas I'm happy. I prefer to concentrate on things that matter to me (science, tech etc). What’s important to you may not be important to the next person.

I probably generalised overmuch.

The one comment I'd make and stand by is that you can tell a lot about how well someone's mind works after you read enough of what they write or listen to enough of what they say.

Spelling and grammar are only a small part of the whole deal.

[-df-]

Adding to this, almost every coder has done some shockers in the past...either due to time constrantes or lack of knowledge (or just lazy).

I know I have.

[scracha]

Web 2.0: A meaningless term used to describe websites with "applications" that look reasonably pretty. When does an HTML page hooked up to some sort of database become Web 2.0? Nobody knows. If it's got Ajax, RSS, DHTML, ActiveX or Applets then you can probably tell the boss it's Web 2.0. Doesn't mean it'll actually work though :first:

[-df-]

I probably generalised overmuch.

The one comment I'd make and stand by is that you can tell a lot about how well someone's mind works after you read enough of what they write or listen to enough of what they say.

Spelling and grammar are only a small part of the whole deal.

Yes...but when has English been logical?

You have to have a logical mind for programming...I think alot of people miss this fact and thats one of the reasons there are alot of dodgy programs out there.

But anyway...agree to disagree on this one :niceone: