When stunting goes wrong...

[Katman]

........should we learn something from it or just pretend it never happened?

(I mean really wrong).

Apparently it's off topic to talk about irresponsible behaviour resulting in death in a thread about a stunting video so here's the thread you've probably all been expecting.

[AllanB]

Ah if it goes really wrong I guess you won't be worried about riding again......

Are you on a wind-up again? :laugh:

[Patch]

do the same thing when you get fired from ya job . . .

[Katman]

Are you on a wind-up again? :laugh:

No wind-up.

It's something I think needs serious discussion.

[dipshit]

It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt... then all of a sudden they aren't such big "tough motorcyclists" anymore. :crybaby:

[RiderInBlack]

OK but I've not seen the vid ya talking about. Link please.

[FJRider]

Stunting is no different to "pushing the envolope) in other aspects of motorcycling... it has its risks, other people MAY be involved(intentionally or otherwise) so be prepared to TAKE the consequences when the shit happens...

[Katman]

And just to clarify - I'm talking specifically about stunting on public roads where others safety is also being put at risk.

[Patch]

And just to clarify - I'm talking specifically about stunting on public roads where others safety is also being put at risk.
thought you had moved the topic to aeroplanes???


so the 'geek' hasn't removed your isp connection yet??

[madandy]

Stunting is no different to "pushing the envolope) in other aspects of motorcycling... it has its risks, other people MAY be involved(intentionally or otherwise) so be prepared to TAKE the consequences when the shit happens...

I love to see a good display of skilful wheelies and stoppies etc. Some of the KB guys I've seen in action are truly masterful and bring a smile to my face everytime but for those up & coming young riders who practise on public roads and occasionally get it wrong - if me or mine was one of the other people effected, the stunter would be well advised to prepare for the consequences alright!

Practise in safe areas like the track please.

[RiderInBlack]

And just to clarify - I'm talking specifically about stunting on public roads where others safety is also being put at risk.
View it the same as any risky riding. Ok if the road is clear and ya will only hurt ya self. Not ok if ya put others at risk.
Now in saying this there a riders I would happily share the road with while they are on the back wheel (and are safer than many that are still on two). And then again there are some I wouldn't ride close too at all. I have been saved from riding one rider over only because I had seen him cock up stunting before, and therefore as soon as I saw him go up on the back wheel I start backing off straight away. Good thing too, cause a light gust caught him and down he went. Had I not backed-off I would have hit him and his downed bike. Down I would have come pillion and all too. Yes I was pissed off with him, But not as much as He was with himself. So in that case I left it alone. Had he thought it was funny, it would have been different.

[Sparky Bills]

It can be looked at two ways...

I spose you never speed either?? Speed kills ya know. Have you learnt from that? Or is that not what you mean?

Stunting is dangerous no doubt. But I find doing a wheelie safer than riding at 200+.
But of course since its SOOOO dangerous, we shouldnt do it.

SHIT! We may aswell hang up our keys and never ride again!

[JMemonic]

Apparently it's off topic to talk about irresponsible behaviour resulting in death in a thread about a stunting video so here's the thread you've probably all been expecting.

Yes it was way off topic regarding the posts that were made about some of those no longer with us.


No wind-up.

It's something I think needs serious discussion.

Perhaps you are right however no amount of discussion on a forum is going to change the mind set of the folks who are both greatly skilled at this and those who just think they have great skills at this.


And just to clarify - I'm talking specifically about stunting on public roads where others safety is also being put at risk.

Ok the nuts and bolts, I understand where you are coming from, I for one could not perform some of the stunts in question, not my skill set and I know my limitations, one of the things about stunting is to display your skills to an audience and the greatest chance of an audience must be the public road.

It must be difficult for the folks that practise this art anywhere in the world, here in NZ one can not use a car park as it is technically a road and as such you can get prosecuted, unless you have it blocked off to public access, then to comply with the regs you must have marshals to ensure that the public do not enter the danger area, the list goes on, and even when you comply with all the rules should and idiot member of the public enter the safe zone and get hurt due to an accident the organisers can be prosecuted, hell of a risk to pull a wheelie or stoppie isnt it.

Sit back relax and admire the skill and practice of those who are good and displaying good judgement, cringe when you see some practising idiotic behaviour, and realise there is nothing you can do to change these things.

[dipshit]

Yes it was way off topic regarding the posts that were made about some of those no longer with us.

The relevance is... where in all of those how to ride more safely books and pamphlets and videos and classes - does it say to stand up on your seat and pull a wheelie while on the motorway? I am pretty sure it doesn't.

Stunting is safe responsible riding antimatter.

So why do people think it is funny and cool and "good skills" when they see a video of other people doing this on public roads?

[Katman]

I doubt anyone who has been killed whilst riding in an irresponsible manner would come back (if they could) and say "fuck yeah, stunting's cool".



Stunting is dangerous no doubt. But I find doing a wheelie safer than riding at 200+.
But of course since its SOOOO dangerous, we shouldnt do it.


And the attitude that motorcycles are just an extension of our penises is the greatest insult we can give to Motorcycling.

[JMemonic]

The relevance is... where in all of those how to ride more safely books and pamphlets and videos and classes - does it say to stand up on your seat and pull a wheelie while on the motorway? I am pretty sure it doesn't.

Correct it possibly does not, but where does someone get the idea that its good taste to make statements about folks who have died either stunting or not in accidents that could have other factors involved. Regardless of what the books say that was beyond bad taste.


Stunting is safe responsible riding antimatter.

How, in the right place and right time its great to watch folks display skills beyond the norm. Time and place.


So why do people think it is funny and cool and "good skills" when they see a video of other people doing this on public roads?

See above and please go back to the original post and reread what my self and other posted.


I doubt anyone who has been killed whilst riding in an irresponsible manner would come back and say "fuck yeah, stunting's cool".

Hard to say really, I am sure you have heard the saying they died doing what they enjoyed. I don't have a line to the afterlife so I cant say for sure but they knew the risks, as you do every time you hop on the bike.

Potentially the skill to do a stoppie could be a life saver, what happens when you lock the front brakes and the rear wheel comes up those guys know what to do, I dont, oh and before you say that can not happen by accident ask around there are some here who have had it happen.

[Katman]

I am sure you have heard the saying they died doing what they enjoyed.

The only time I believe the saying "he died with a smile on his face" is when the person's found in bed.

[dipshit]

How, in the right place and right time its great to watch folks display skills beyond the norm. Time and place.

Well any public road is never the right place. Otherwise no one would care less.

[AlBundy]

Katman.

NO ONE has EVER made it out of life alive.

DEAL WITH IT! Be careful all you want but you'll still go out in a box...

Life is what happens while you're making other plans... Death is what happens in life...

[Katman]

I guess what prompted this thread was the realisation of how many on here leap at the chance to post in RIP threads while continuing to take the attitude that stunting on public roads is way cool.

[sinfull]

I guess what prompted this thread was the realisation of how many on here leap at the chance to post in RIP threads while continuing to take the attitude that stunting on public roads is way cool.
My votes are >>
No to carving through traffic on one wheel !
Yes to stunting !

I would be the first to admit my skills as a rider are just average, perhaps slightly above average !
I am far from being a saint as my avatar statement will attest to, i do enjoy riding at above the limits ! But i do know my own limits and you wont catch me pushing it in rush hour, splitting traffic to the point where it frightens those i pass taking stupid chances ! But give me a clear run down the desert road and i will take the bike to its maximum limit ! Or with a clear back road in front of me, i could be encouraged to pop the odd wheelie !
But I am gettin on now and that could have a little to do with keeping it seemly !
I do however wish there were more controlled areas, where i could safely go and practise this sort of thing, just as i wish there were more track days !
First track day i attended at manfield had a few guys doing their stuff in the lunch break ! It was impressive and i thoroughly enjoyed the show !
If there were such areas to go and practise, i would prolly set up a bike for stunting ! Same as if there were more track days, i'd have bike that was set up for the track and just the track, so to improove my skills there to a point where i'd be confident to race competitively !
But then i wish for a lot of things !

[Katman]

just as i wish there were more track days !


Couldn't agree more.

[dipshit]

I guess what prompted this thread was the realisation of how many on here leap at the chance to post in RIP threads while continuing to take the attitude that stunting on public roads is way cool.

It has always struck me as if people are only giving lip service with their "RIP, our prayers are with the family" crap that they copy and paste from one week to the next... then the next minute are saying "good skills!" to someone's video of them passing between a line of cars on a double yellow on the back wheel.

I don't think they really do care at all. It's all part of being a big tough motorcyclist isn't it?

[ManDownUnder]

I guess what prompted this thread was the realisation of how many on here leap at the chance to post in RIP threads while continuing to take the attitude that stunting on public roads is way cool.

People who risk death they have sympathy for those that get killed.

I admire people with those skills and I know it takes a lot of cash and practise to get that good. No problems giving credit there. What pisses me off is when people go stunting and put innocents at risk (no matter how good they are). That's just selfish.

When does "look at me, look at me" ever become more important than the safety of others?

[R6_kid]

If an aerobatics pilot crashes and dies at an Airshow does everyone else stop doing Aerobatics for good?

[Sully60]

Ok Katman, I agree with the premise that stunting on the road is a bad idea. My rap sheet in court goes a long way to prove that.

Anybody who knows how I ride would attest to my affection performing such antics so at the risk of appearing hypocritical at least I know first hand the consequences of this practice in both the positive and negative (which I almost get the impression are reversed for you and I?).

This is obviously something you feel strongly about or at least you feel strongly for posting on KB about it. My question to you is apart from starting threads like these and posting in the stunting threads raising the ire of said stunters, what are you doing about it?


This sort of behaviour will never go away, despite, no sorry, in spite of the nanny state world which we now live in and I can almost guarantee that its’ incidence will only increase.(There are much bigger forces (http://www.google.co.nz/search?q=stunt+clothing&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a) at work than either you or me here)

We live in a world of Extreme sports this and excessive that, you just have to look at the progression of freestyle motocross in the last ten years for instance.
I don't think that it is a too tenuous link to see stunting as its 'Urban' equivalent but being a sport that uses flat pavement as opposed to a paddock down the back of the Smiths property, guess where it’s going to happen?

Thank You Mr Ford for mass producing motorcars that went so much better on sealed roads so governments of the past created all these areas of lovely smooth road just so perfect for stunting :love:

I’m pretty sure you won’t disagree with what I’ve stated above so my next question is, are you familiar with OSH procedure?

You’ve rightfully identified a hazard, no question.

As I said in my fourth paragraph I would pretty much rule out any chance of the first step: elimination.

So the next two options are isolation and minimisation.

Minimisation is difficult as it is subjective. Oh, I was only doing a short stoppie or I only did a ten o’clock wheelie, or only ten of the 250 bikes that went past did wheelies!

Isolation, hmmm, put them all on a island made of tarmac and let them all stunt until they’ve killed each other, I know the concept appeals (settle down dipshit!) but again this is the nanny state so the tarmac island will just end up having under floor heating and flat screen TV’s that you and I paid for:mad:

As I stated earlier I see that this is something you are passionate about, hell you must be considering the grief you get on here and I honestly admire you for sticking to your guns. It all means nothing though Katman, like this post just text stored away on a server in some deviant’s back room unless you do something actively in meat space to minimise or isolate the risks involved. I think there is some merit in your theory that no one should ever die in a road accident, 100% responsibility and all that, the question is how far are YOU prepared to go to make that happen? If you CAN do something and you to stop one accident or RIP thread and you don’t, does that make you in some way responsible?

How about talking to your local council or racetrack/driving facility about organising regular events on a closed road or other suitable venue? It may actually be cathartic for you to deal directly with some of the people whom you’ve shown so much derision (correct me if I’m wrong) for on KB. You’ll get at least some of these heathens to stop doing it on the road (minimisation) and if you get somewhere where the public can be safe when things go wrong then you’ve managed to isolate the risk posed at that time. There are lots of other things that could be very positive for motorcycle safety but I want to go to bed soon and I type too slow to add too many bells and whistles.

Like I said I’m no angel to profess otherwise would demonstrate hypocrisy in the magnitude of the average Supernova but I don’t want to impose the results of my love for pushing the boundaries on the innocents of this world.


Help me, please?

[Katman]

(I thought long and hard about whether or not to include the last sentence because I’m not sure that you don’t get some sort of pleasure from seeing someone suffer the ultimate consequence as a result of an illegal stunt)


I appreciate the time and though that went into your post Sully (even though the above quote couldn't be further from the truth and I suspect it was just a dig that you couldn't resist).

What am I doing about it? I'm trying to get people talking about the deaths that result from irresponsible behaviour on our roads. If we don't talk about them, nothing is learned and nothing changes.

As I said once before in one of my other threads, drink driving has become totally unacceptable in most peoples eyes over the last 20 years or so. Acting like clowns on motorcycles on public roads could eventually be seen the same way. If enough people want it that way.

I'll stick my hand up and say "I do".

[dipshit]

If an aerobatics pilot crashes and dies at an Airshow does everyone else stop doing Aerobatics for good?

Its people's own personal choice if they want to partake in that particular sport or not. Just like any other sport. Playing rugby, mountain climbing, motor racing.

However a public road is not a sports field. Other people using it do not wish to share in the added risk (and costs involved through ACC road user charges, bad press/public image, stricter policing and laws and such) of your extreme sport. It would be the same as an airline pilot trying to do some aerobatics he saw on a youtube video with a plane full of passengers. If he joined an aerobatic club and tested his skills at a staged venue, then no one would care less.

[Katman]

If an aerobatics pilot crashes and dies at an Airshow does everyone else stop doing Aerobatics for good?

Aerobatics is quite different. They are done in as controlled an environment as possible and if a pilot is seen to be performing stunts irresponsibly with total disregard for others they will be in a power of shit (as I'm sure you're well aware).

[Tank]

Its people's own personal choice if they want to partake in that particular sport or not. Just like any other sport. Playing rugby, mountain climbing, motor racing.

However a public road is not a sports field. Other people using it do not wish to share in the added risk (and costs involved through ACC road user charges and such) of your extreme sport. It would be the same as an airline pilot trying to do some aerobatics he saw on a youtube video with a plane full of passengers. If he joined an aerobatic club and tested his skills at a staged venue, then no one would care less.

ahhhhh fuck it. I actually agree with one of your post. :blank:


By stunting when there are others around - you are forcing your views and behaviour onto them - some people don't like that - I'm one.

As far as I'm concerned - its no different to boi racers speeding / drifting etc in their POS cars - they all think its perfectly safe - until it goes wrong.

How many of us have seen them driving around like clowns (normally with duff-duff music blaring) and think 'bloody wankers'.

Yet when someone does 'close to the edge' riding - its cool - whats the difference - just because they are on a bike?

On the other side of the coin - I love watching stunts - I cannot do 'em and I appreciate the skill others have that can - Id pay money to go watch (and have) - I just dont like it when Im right next to the buggas.

[Sully60]

(even though the above quote couldn't be further from the truth and I suspect it was just a dig that you couldn't resist).

To be honest it was, I'd like to give you more credit than that but I'm only human and struggling to resist the temptation of becoming a (KB)sheep I will edit the post and retract it.




What am I doing about it? I'm trying to get people talking about the deaths that result from irresponsible behaviour on our roads. If we don't talk about them, nothing is learned and nothing changes.



There's a little more merit in the results of stunting than there is in drunk driving(like that's not causing deaths anymore despite being socially unacceptable), though the road is not the place for both, equally.

Fair enough, but I would urge you to consult with local riding instructors, the people who organise the Streetwise? courses, ACC and various other interested parties.
You may have taken this path but as I have no idea I can only go on what I see here, words on a server.

Unfortunatley the timing of your cause may be it's biggest downfall, people are getting sick of big brother telling them how to live and it's my feeling that stunters already demonstrate that real :finger: attitude and I'm sure some of the exchanges that have occured on here only add to the ferver that their stunts are performed, still you've got a long term plan so all the best.

As good as your efforts turn out to be I still don't think you will eliminate the fact that people will use the roads as playgrounds.

Those who are wise don't want innocent and unaware little kids to play on the road so they build them playgrounds....



BTW: I haven't done a wheelie in nearly a month of riding on the road, is there hope for me yet?

[JMemonic]

Aerobatics is quite different. They are done in as controlled an environment as possible and if a pilot is seen to be performing stunts irresponsibly with total disregard for others they will be in a power of shit (as I'm sure you're well aware).

Sorry the difference is what? Some of those fines if the police charge you could be considered a "power of shit", potentially the same loss of licence applies, or of course the death of the pilot and or innocent bystanders.

[Bass]

Well for starters, there are designated practice areas where you can go to polish your aerobatic skills, that other aircraft stay away from. A bit like taking your stunting practice to the track really.
The whole point of this thread is "take it to the controlled environment" which is the bit you have ignored.
Aerobatting is permitted in general aviation space, but one of the first drills you perform before commencing a manoeuvre is to check that there's no-one else around - exactly the opposite of what this thread is about.

[avgas]

A wise person learns their lesson. A smart ass will try and learn others.

[JMemonic]

Well for starters, there are designated practice areas where you can go to polish your aerobatic skills, that other aircraft stay away from. A bit like taking your stunting practice to the track really.

Yeap, and anyone wishing to practice said skills only has to fly to said area, announce their presence and check for other users, try that on a track.


The whole point of this thread is "take it to the controlled environment" which is the bit you have ignored.

Nope not ignored at all, hell its one of the best things that has been said, stunting is fine in time and place, the highway is not the place, perhaps if you read the whole thread.


Aerobatting is permitted in general aviation space, but one of the first drills you perform before commencing a manoeuvre is to check that there's no-one else around - exactly the opposite of what this thread is about.

??? several folks including myself have mentioned things like time and place, I guess you did not get that.

[Racer X]

Did Dipshit and Katman have a civil union or something?

[Bass]

Yeap, and anyone wishing to practice said skills only has to fly to said area, announce their presence and check for other users, try that on a track.
Have been to several "stunt only" sessions at the track. It worked quite well.
I don't think that anyone is seriously suggesting trying it during a race.




Nope not ignored at all, hell its one of the best things that has been said, stunting is fine in time and place, the highway is not the place, perhaps if you read the whole thread.



??? several folks including myself have mentioned things like time and place, I guess you did not get that.

Yes I got that (and commend it), I just didn't see (and still don't) how you can compare "irresponsible" motorcycling with aerobatics - one of the most controlled and regulated activities that I know of.

[The Pastor]

I find the best place to do wheelies are

Outside girls high schools.
near construction workers
and out side hospitals.

[sinfull]

Aerobatics ? Now we're talkin lol just so happens there's a bit of air space out here on the coast where low flying and such is allowed !
Was about 10 yr ago i made up my mind to start doin shit that scared me (was bored shitless) so went down the local airport to see about throwin myself out of a perfectly good plane !
Unfortunately they had stopped that here in pram, but the young pilot i was talking to piped up and said, ya ever tried aerobatics, well nah hello !
Hours flying later, i looked like a dog with my head out the cesna's window ! Wasn't the Aerobatics, but he was starting out as a top dresser so showed me a few dressing passes lol that brought on a tinge of green !~
But again, a designated area !
Bling to you Sully, almost wish i had more organisation skills and more nice ashfelt areas to hire, borrow or whatever ! I might even be tempted to go talk to the council !
Edit ; I i were allowed to bling ya again !