A question to IT KBers, part II

[Street Gerbil]

Ok, boys and girls, thank you for the bits and bytes of information you have provided so far. Here is the deal. After 10 years of working at the same place I am rusty. I know our infrastructure class library by heart and I can recite business rules until the next week without pausing. Outside my former employer's company it is worth squat. I have mental capacity to learn one thing. Now please vote and explain your choice, what should I focus on to get a decent job. Please elaborate.

1) General C++ - 7.5 years of "experience" working with corporate infra. I dread C++ questions on the interview, because our company only used a small subset of features, e.g. I never used templates in my life. I am not familiar with the std library. I have no idea what is "smart pointers" and I have never used boost in my life. On the other hand, when I code, I think in C++ and I love dealing with pointers.

2) Java - a few months of experience maintaining a fairly large web-based application. I know very little, apart from the fact that I like this language.

3) VB and/or C# .NET - I know enough VB to code on an amateur level and I can put together an application in C# if I keep my nose in the manual. I love C#, but I have very little practical experience.

4) ASP.NET - seems like quite an exciting technology but I am worried about it being limited to Microsoft technology. I do not want to repeat an error of sticking myself into a niche.

5) Something else


EDITED----
Oh, and if your company is recruiting, feel free to PM me so I can forward them my resume. There will be beer. I promise.

[scracha]

Logo .....10 chars

[Street Gerbil]

Logo .....10 chars
Or may be forth?

[limbimtimwim]

Become a Perl guru.

Not being extremely common means you can be paid more, but Perl isn't obscure enough you can't get a job. And it's fun to write in, you get results quickly. On the other hand, reading other people's code is...... well...... can be difficult. And reading your own 6 months later can be frightening.

[Street Gerbil]

Become a Perl guru.

Not being extremely common means you can be paid more, but Perl isn't obscure enough you can't get a job. And it's fun to write in, you get results quickly. On the other hand, reading other people's code is...... well...... can be difficult. And reading your own 6 months later can be frightening.

I can code in Perl. Any leads?

[RantyDave]

I'd say C#. This makes me scum, clearly, but I have my reasons.

First C++. I loves me some C++ and am in a similar (ish) position in that I didn't have much time with STL before leaving the language. I don't think there is a non-maintenance C++ project left on the planet. OTOH the cool kids all want to learn Ruby which means that somebody somewhere has to still be able to code C++. Under the circumstances I wouldn't worry about not knowing STL. Besides, it's only fairly recently that STL has got to the point where it's actually halfway usable IMHO.

ASP? Fuck that.

A lot of Java is retarded. Good language, 'orrible libraries and all this J2EE shit really made a mess. OTOH they get awesome development tools now - I work with a guy who pines after IntelliJ almost daily. Quite a few bucks in Java too - people rely on it now. Less obnoxious than C++, clearly.

So, C#. Much as I hate Microsoft I think it's become apparent that C# is a less retarded Java. Good dev tools and a healthy market within gullible corporate cunts ... I mean enterprise development teams ... that tend to be overstaffed, overpaid and low on expectations. Sweet place to learn a language while drinking nice coffee I reckon.

Of course all this good advice comes from someone who hasn't written a line of C++ in two years, kinda writes Objective-C, spends far too much time with maths, algorithms and bastard OpenGL, and is getting into Python. None of which are sensible skills from a 'nice safe career' perspective. But hey. Fuck it. It pays the bills.

Dave

[Street Gerbil]

None of which are sensible skills from a 'nice safe career' perspective. Dave
Ok, Dave, so you are saying C# is career-safe.
Other opinions? Please?
Does any of you gentlemen have any C# training videos I can borrow?

[jrandom]

Ok, Dave, so you are saying C# is career-safe.
Other opinions? Please?
Does any of you gentlemen have any C# training videos I can borrow?

You may have noted that I also voted for C#. Similar reasons, it's the development platform du jour.

Videos? No. Can you even get programming language training videos?

I suspect that everything you need to teach yourself C# will be findable on msdn.microsoft.com.

[-df-]

.....Lots of stuff....


Was going to write out my opinion...but that sums it up.

I'd vote for C# after using it for 3 years. I switched from C++ and never looked back (except for some performance issues...but thats what unmanaged C++ DLL's are for are they not?)

So basically...if you can code C# and C++ you are set in todays world. Rapid dev with C#, and for the things that need performance do it in C++ and call it from C#.

If you did a MSCD course (or what ever they call it now) in C# I'd say you'd get a job without much problem.

Most companies look for programming ability...not just knowledge of a language...anyone can use google to find what method to call ;)

[Her_C4]

Become a Perl guru.

Not being extremely common means you can be paid more, but Perl isn't obscure enough you can't get a job. And it's fun to write in, you get results quickly. On the other hand, reading other people's code is...... well...... can be difficult. And reading your own 6 months later can be frightening.

My 0.002c worth on this?

I have just spent the last month frantically looking for a perl guru for a short term contract. Sorted now but there are opportunities out there for the rarer technologies.:banana:

[avgas]

i have another question for you all.
how many people are ITIL accredited? is it worth it? seems a rather large sum of money for 3 days of "training"

[jrandom]

I have just spent the last month frantically looking for a perl guru for a short term contract. Sorted now...

IMHO, that's all that's ever likely to be out there that's Perl-specific, inasmuch as it's no sort of tool that anyone in their right mind uses for large commercial software projects.

Perl's designed to be text-manipulating scripting glue. Yes, it's a Turing-complete programming language, but so is Brainfuck. You could theoretically do anything in Perl that you could do in, say, C++, but anyone who'd try that when tasked with implementing a saleable maintainable product should be locked in a padded cell, IMHO.

So it's handy to know about, but not something you're likely to have much luck finding a job working with for any length of time.

[imdying]

I suspect there's no love for ASP.NET in the poll because once you know C#, ASP.NET is just a stepping stone away. All the important stuff (i.e. talking to SQL servers and webservices) is exactly the same :)

[xwhatsit]

It's very simplistic of course, but there's some introductory resources for C# targetted at Java programmers available here (http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/compsci335s2t/lectures/mano/) and here (http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/compsci335s2t/resources/mano/). Make use of all the education taxes you've been paying to universities!

C# is nice, .NET libraries are nice, Visual Studio is nice (what's wrong with vi though!), but why is the compiler so slow? Maybe to facilitate this (http://xkcd.com/303/)...

[mister.koz]

I'd say java because of my fairly strong hatred for c#

Its brilliant until you get down to speeding things up and you realize how completely hair-brained the .net environment really is i have had it firing events twice, not firing events when it should and even had it lock up while doing something as simple as processing the same string it has 1000s of times...

For design, deployment and managing code, c# is brilliant its very easy to use and quite scalable (providing you have good principles) the portability of code from desktop->pocketpc->web is very cool too although i would rather learn ruby on rails or write pages in html with notepad than write another asp.net website.

Java is the choice for me because it has true portability (apart from pocket pc) as in it runs on bloody everything and its consistant on everything (we use are about half and half windows for penguins here. Its not microsoft and it is open source.

Its not nearly as defined or simplified like c# which means the deeper you get into framework development the more you can find you have to re-write to make everything contiguous, though i think this is mainly my inexperience and my c#-way of thinking.

[jrandom]

Visual Studio is nice (what's wrong with vi though!)

You knew someone would post this, didn't you?

<img src="http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/real_programmers.png"/>

[jrandom]

I'd say java because of my fairly strong hatred for c#

Its brilliant until you get down to speeding things up and you realize how completely hair-brained the .net environment really is i have had it firing events twice, not firing events when it should and even had it lock up while doing something as simple as processing the same string it has 1000s of times...

With all due respect, I'd say that you probably didn't quite grok how the .NET Framework was meant to be used in those specific instances. Messrs Hejlsberg & Co know what they're doing.


... the more you can find you have to re-write to make everything contiguous, though i think this is mainly my inexperience...

A little bit, aye.

;)

[mister.koz]

With all due respect, I'd say that you probably didn't quite grok how the .NET Framework was meant to be used in those specific instances. Messrs Hejlsberg & Co know what they're doing.

I find it quite unlikely that firing the same event twice in the same thread when the condition only occurred once could be something that was intentionally.

[yod]

meh

give PHP a crack

[mister.koz]

meh

give PHP a crack

yeah PHP is great :) not so good on the desktop tho... even if you get php-gtk working!

[Ixion]

It's very simplistic of course, but there's some introductory resources for C# targetted at Java programmers available here (http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/compsci335s2t/lectures/mano/) and here (http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/compsci335s2t/resources/mano/). Make use of all the education taxes you've been paying to universities!

C# is nice, .NET libraries are nice, Visual Studio is nice (what's wrong with vi though!), but why is the compiler so slow? Maybe to facilitate this (http://xkcd.com/303/)...

:Oi: If the compiler was faster , I wouldn't have time for KB!

And, of course, you can use vi with Visual Studio. Just write your code using vi, and compile with the command line compiler (eg csc.exe for C#). You did know that you don't have to use the IDE didn't you. csc.exe can also use responsefiles (sort of a poor mans makefile), to automate the process.

(NB the slow compile problem is a recognised bugette. There's a bunch of tips to overcome it on the web. Simplest way is to open two VS sessions. One to work on your forms and code, the other WHICH HAS NO FORMS OR ANYTHING OPEN, is just used to compile)

[yod]

web based is the shiz

lovin it

[mister.koz]

And, of course, you can use vi with Visual Studio. Just write your code using vi, and compile with the command line compiler (eg csc.exe for C#). You did know that you don't have to use the IDE didn't you. csc.exe can also use responsefiles (sort of a poor mans makefile), to automate the process.

I dunno man, i reckon the best thing c#.net has going for it is the IDE, VS2005 (haven't used 2008 yet) has some really cool tricks and the syntax highlighting and code completion mean you can write when your eyes are tired!

Thats the only reason i haven't completely dropped c# for java, the java IDE's aren't quite as easy to use (opinion).

[enigma51]

The buzz word at the moment is Web 2.0 everyCEO/CIO has it on there lips at the moment and everyone wants a piece of the pie


To be Web 2.0 "ready" you will need to sadly go down the path of C# and J#. The .Net crap in other words

Java is also not a bad start at getting into the Web 2.0 bullshit.

Thats where the money is at the moment so if you are comfartable with Java go down that path

Just do a search on seek and see how many bloody .net and java roles are out there

[imdying]

i have had it firing events twice, not firing events when it should and even had it lock up while doing something as simple as processing the same string it has 1000s of times...

i would rather learn ruby on rails or write pages in html with notepad than write another asp.net website.PEBKAC methinks...

[imdying]

To be Web 2.0 "ready" you will need to sadly go down the path of C# and J#. The .Net crap in other wordsYou do if you're smart... I've worked on a web2.0 ASP application, ewwww.

[enigma51]

You do if you're smart... I've worked on a web2.0 ASP application, ewwww.

From what i have seen most companies starting from scratch like to do with .net but those that are "rebuilding" try and do a combined pain in the ass method.

I avoid all that crap like the plague I hate web programing. Give me unix vms or anything and im happy.

Ooooo one more eve kicks VI's ass

and sed is for dorks!

[mister.koz]

PEBKAC methinks...

I've been writing c# and php professionally for 6 years, i checked my code quite a bit before i realizing that the .net framework wasn't perfect, its a known fault.

AND ruby looks pretty cool :)

[jrandom]

I find it quite unlikely that firing the same event twice in the same thread when the condition only occurred once could be something that was intentionally.

Oh well, fair call then.

Unfortunately you're never going to find a framework with zero bugs in its implementation.

[mister.koz]

Oh well, fair call then.

Unfortunately you're never going to find a framework with zero bugs in its implementation.

Yeah bit of a shame but the benefits of environment based languages are great, hence why i am looking at java. Also helps that i can host java on my servers :) asp.net doesn't do so well on linux :/ and writing business frameworks in 2 languages and using bridging api's is a nightmare i would sooner avoid!

[xwhatsit]

And, of course, you can use vi with Visual Studio. Just write your code using vi, and compile with the command line compiler (eg csc.exe for C#). You did know that you don't have to use the IDE didn't you. csc.exe can also use responsefiles (sort of a poor mans makefile), to automate the process.

(NB the slow compile problem is a recognised bugette. There's a bunch of tips to overcome it on the web. Simplest way is to open two VS sessions. One to work on your forms and code, the other WHICH HAS NO FORMS OR ANYTHING OPEN, is just used to compile)

I do write my C# code in vi actually -- at home, under Linux, and compile using Mono's gmcs. It does it in a blink of an eye -- try compiling the same thing at uni with csc.exe, and it's a factor of 100x slower.

I love vi (vim, actually) and GNU screen and all of that, but I expect once I start out working on horrible convoluted bloated stuff in RL with a decade-old codebase an IDE might be sort of necessary. Or maybe not -- I'm doing CS, not SE <_<

[jim.cox]

AND ruby looks pretty cool :)

Ruby IS cool :)

[jrandom]

Or maybe not -- I'm doing CS, not SE <_<

Do you think that will change the sort of work you'll end up doing?

Personally, I think that the VS 2005 and 2008 IDEs are really nice to work in.

Polished, even.

Eminently usable.

[xwhatsit]

Do you think that will change the sort of work you'll end up doing?
Well, if I wanted to be a day-in day-out code-monkey, I would've done SE. I'm hoping (naïvely, most likely) that doing CS would broaden my options a little. At least that's how it was sold to me :eek:

Personally, I think that the VS 2005 and 2008 IDEs are really nice to work in.

Polished, even.

Eminently usable.
It is! Very nice for a GUI IDE.

But if I want to do a :%s/foo/bar/gc I have to reach all the way over to the desk in the corner and pull out that dusty old mouse I haven't used since Word 97...:innocent:

[yod]

Do you think that will change the sort of work you'll end up doing?

Personally, I think that the VS 2005 and 2008 IDEs are really nice to work in.

Polished, even.

Eminently usable.

suck up the odd resource tho:shit:

[jrandom]

Well, if I wanted to be a day-in day-out code-monkey, I would've done SE. I'm hoping (naïvely, most likely) that doing CS would broaden my options a little. At least that's how it was sold to me :eek:

Oh dear.

...

Ten years from now, you will stare dully into the glow of a monitor filled with crap, memories of days when you rushed home to work on personal projects fading into the dim past, your mind collapsing under the dead weight of bug tracking reports, revision control server malfunctions, and endless project management meetings, longing only for the clock to tick past 5pm and send you to back to your mortgaged sliver of suburbia and the blessed solace of a bottle of cheap bourbon.

Then, and only then, will you realise that you really wanted to be a lumberjack.

[avgas]

Oh dear.

...

Ten years from now, you will stare dully into the glow of a monitor filled with crap, memories of days when you rushed home to work on personal projects fading into the dim past, your mind collapsing under the dead weight of bug tracking reports, revision control server malfunctions, and endless project management meetings, longing only for the clock to tick past 5pm and send you to back to your mortgaged sliver of suburbia and the blessed solace of a bottle of cheap bourbon.

Then, and only then, will you realise that you really wanted to be a lumberjack.
Holy shit its like you can see me right now.
It doesnt help the fact that i recently saw Wanted and now i think that i should be some kind exciting person like an assassin.
My new theme song is "Everyday is exactly the same" - NIN

[avgas]

Anyone got a pascal builder (you know from the IIC Macs of the 90's) or some sort of emulator that runs in XP,Vista......or an xbox.
I have a cool little game i made like a decade ago that i feel needs compiling.

[yod]

Oh dear.

...

Ten years from now, you will stare dully into the glow of a monitor filled with crap, memories of days when you rushed home to work on personal projects fading into the dim past, your mind collapsing under the dead weight of bug tracking reports, revision control server malfunctions, and endless project management meetings, longing only for the clock to tick past 5pm and send you to back to your mortgaged sliver of suburbia and the blessed solace of a bottle of cheap bourbon.

Then, and only then, will you realise that you really wanted to be a lumberjack.

got it in one

'cep the bourbon aint cheap

[jrandom]

'cep the bourbon aint cheap

Mine is.

I never saw the point of paying particularly good money for bourbon. No matter how they fiddle around with it, it's still just bourbon.

[yod]

Mine is.

I never saw the point of paying particularly good money for bourbon. No matter how they fiddle around with it, it's still just bourbon.

BLASPHEMY!! :shit:

[Street Gerbil]

Oh dear.

...

Ten years from now, you will stare dully into the glow of a monitor filled with crap, memories of days when you rushed home to work on personal projects fading into the dim past, your mind collapsing under the dead weight of bug tracking reports, revision control server malfunctions, and endless project management meetings, longing only for the clock to tick past 5pm and send you to back to your mortgaged sliver of suburbia and the blessed solace of a bottle of cheap bourbon.

Then, and only then, will you realise that you really wanted to be a lumberjack.
That's funny. That's exactly where I used to find myself, except that it is whiskey rather than bourbon and fishing charter operator rather than lumberjack...
Of course nothing revitalizes better than realization that there are interviews to be aced, and you are not certain of the order of execution of constructors in multiple inheritance, and cannot code a permutations function on a whiteboard within allotted time.

[Hawkeye]

OK. Here's my 2c worth.

Remember that language that would be dead and buried by the 80's. COBOL.

Well it is still around. There are so many legacy systems out there that rely on said code that the chances of it disappearing is extremely small due to the cost involved to redevelop.

Now everyone wants to code in all of the sexy bleeding edge languages so no one is training in the older languages. The ones that do have the skill set are getting older. All of the COBOL coder's in the place I work are in their mid to late 40's or older.

It is therefore opening up a huge market for the 'younger' developers to command extreme sums of money. Just look at what the market was like for the Y2K projects. Legacy systems had to be maintained and COBOL developers were paid very well because of it.
With the increasing age of the people with that skill set, now is the time to strike. Throw in some CICS and the odd bit of DB2 and you can live very comfortably.

You know I'm right. - Would I lie to you!

[imdying]

You know I'm right. - Would I lie to you!

You would think so, but the reality is, business are moving to enterprise level frameworks like there's no tomorrow.

[jrandom]

enterprise level frameworks

Buzzword alert! Motherfucker's obviously been possessed by a Pointy-Haired Marketing Imp. Exorcism kit, stat!

[hdus001]

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is the difference between CS & SE in terms of what sort of job a student of the discipline is trained for?

[jrandom]

Just out of curiosity, what exactly is the difference between CS & SE in terms of what sort of job a student of the discipline is trained for?

They're two different Auckland Uni majors. One's run by the science and math faculty, the other's run by the engineering faculty.

The BSc majoring in computer science is three years of papers about computer programming.

The BE majoring in software engineering is four years, including most of the same papers as above, but with a standard BE's first year of physics and math thrown in.

In reality, students will come out having learned the exact same things. The major difference is that getting into the BE programme is harder in terms of entry requirements. Couldn't have Hoodsie's (http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2007/nov/15/highereducation.administration) old faculty lowering its standards, after all!

Auckland Uni's software engineering major was started in an effort to get more students enrolling and get non-technical management at big employers excited. The substantial difference is minimal - you just get to burn an extra year doing the same papers as all the other engineering majors instead of jumping straight into learning about computer programming.

And the lecturers are all still just lame-arse motherfuckers who have trouble getting real jobs.

:msn-wink:

Edit: I'm just shittin' you, one of me best mates and most useful colleagues spent a couple of years working there.

[Street Gerbil]

OK. Here's my 2c worth.

Remember that language that would be dead and buried by the 80's. COBOL.

Well it is still around. There are so many legacy systems out there that rely on said code that the chances of it disappearing is extremely small due to the cost involved to redevelop.

Now everyone wants to code in all of the sexy bleeding edge languages so no one is training in the older languages. The ones that do have the skill set are getting older. All of the COBOL coder's in the place I work are in their mid to late 40's or older.

It is therefore opening up a huge market for the 'younger' developers to command extreme sums of money. Just look at what the market was like for the Y2K projects. Legacy systems had to be maintained and COBOL developers were paid very well because of it.
With the increasing age of the people with that skill set, now is the time to strike. Throw in some CICS and the odd bit of DB2 and you can live very comfortably.

You know I'm right. - Would I lie to you!
The funny thing is, 80% of the code that I worked with in New Zealand were written in Microfocus NetExpress COBOL. Its lack of local variables sucks, but it has got a half decent IDE and even a functional (most of the time) integrated debugger.

[xwhatsit]

They're two different Auckland Uni majors. One's run by the science and math faculty, the other's run by the engineering faculty.
You're not too far off the ball there -- see, I thought I was getting CS CS, you know, in the American sense of the word. Instead I got computer programming.

Still, CS is a lot more general than SE. More into the underlying theory and how it all works -- SE is more `how to write fast tight code in C# .NET 2.0', whereas CS will give you a broad-level overview of how exactly JIT/JVM sort of environments work, and teach you all about object-orientation. The idea being that in 5 years time, when Micro-Soft releases D-flat 8.8 .NET, you can buy a textbook and pick up all the individual peculiarites of the language over the weekend and be ready to go, whereas the poor SE chap doesn't know his lips from his arsehole.

And we get to write cool things like compilers and useless microkernel OSs, while SE students write endless front-ends to SQL Server databases. J -- you're depressing me -- if I end up doing shit like that for a decade, I'll blow my brains out.

[jrandom]

... we get to write cool things like compilers and useless microkernel OSs

Best you get your fill of it now, then, cos after you graduate it'll be SQL Server front-ends putting food in your cupboard.

:pinch:


J -- you're depressing me -- if I end up doing shit like that for a decade, I'll blow my brains out.

Embedded and internets-infrastructure-product type projects are your best hope of salvation. Get a job writing industrial control software, or crystal oscillator test systems at Rakon (they use C#), or something like that.

Don't ever work for a telecom company, no matter how honeyed their words and attractive their salary package.

Likewise, avoid like the plague any company in the MIS software business (the likes of Peace and Orion spring to mind).

Optima (http://www.theoptimacorporation.com/) are doing some sexy things. I'd get my CV to them ASAP. They're not good payers but that doesn't matter when you're a fresh grad.

Good luck. You'll be right. Maybe. Go for straight As, stay on and do a PhD, and then go work for Google, would be my advice.

[enigma51]

Something i found while looking for some BSD softare

http://www.freesoftwaremagazine.com/columns/does_anybody_still_develop_windows_applications_or _programming_world_has_gone_online

[avgas]

Haha so true.
I used to use only C, C++, C builder.........but i haven't been able to touch that for years. Last few project have been either online stuff (CS3, HTML) or bizzare stuff (H-Code, Digsi, protocol Bullshit).
I miss the good ol days

[scracha]

Don't ever work for a telecom company, no matter how honeyed their words and attractive their salary package.

Seconded. Don't ever work for an American company either. They're all arse licking "yes men" who can't call a spade a fuckin spade.

[xwhatsit]

Well I just went and saw Richard Stallman speak today (he's speaking tomorrow again at uni). The stirring of revolution is within me! I think I shall become...

A folk dancer...?

[jrandom]

Well I just went and saw Richard Stallman speak today (he's speaking tomorrow again at uni).

What did he talk about (I suppose that's a dumb question) and what time's his lecture today?

If I didn't have the kids staying this weekend and the Olympic road race on at 3pm I'd be tempted to wander along. Be nice to meet RMS in person.

<img src="http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/open_source.png"/>

I suppose this was inevitable shortly after that comic was published:

<img src="http://imgs.xkcd.com/blag/rms_katana.jpg"/>

[xwhatsit]

Er, I slept in, so a bit late for his lecture today.

Yesterday was on DRM and all of that stuff he finds so upsetting. Today was about free software.

My friend -- an arts student -- regularly reads XKCD, and drew some other cartoon (some amalgamation of your one and `Stand back -- I know Linux' (which I made him change to GNU/Linux for his own sake)), but after seeing how fearsome and angry a man RMS is he didn't hold it up or get him to sign it :laugh:

[disenfranchised]

Don't ever work for a telecom company, no matter how honeyed their words and attractive their salary package.

Do you mean a telecommunications company...or a department/partner of Telecom itself?

If the former....why not?
I work at one...we use .NET to build all our own applications, and handle all the B2B communication.

Deep in the depths of the network they'll still be using C++, Perl etc...

Plus all the languages to control calls and the like...SIP etc...


So there's pretty much the opportunity to use anything and everything.

[jrandom]

Do you mean a telecommunications company...

Yes.

Because the particular corporate flavour of a telecommunications company is anathema to a certain type of person.

One assumes you are not that type of person.

Which is good, because someone's gotta do it.

:sunny: