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Mom
8th August 2008, 10:26
I recently asked Harry Dynhoven how many kilometres of WRB of any model are currently installed anywhere on New Zealands roading network and received this answer today in the mail.

..."Transit New Zealand tells me that there is 152 kilometres of wire-rope barrier installed on State Highways. This includes 84.5 kilometres of median barrier and 67.5 kilometres of side-protection barrier. I also understand that there are small amounts of wire-rope barrier installed on local authority roads. I trust this information is useful."


Well about as useful as tits on a bull really. What part of the question did he not understand? Must have been where I asked anywhere on New Zealands roading network I guess.

*sigh*

So people, when you are out and about around the country, can you measure (as best you can by odometer reading) how many K's of WRB you pass in the middle of the road, and post back here your estimates and the road name and location of the barriers.

Lets see how accurate this answer from Mr Dynhoven is.

MSTRS
8th August 2008, 10:35
152 kms? There would be more than that on Aucks MW system alone surely?
Mmmm...I asked this question last year (although it was put to him as 'brifen barriers' and the answer came back 124kms. I thought he was playing semantics when he knew what the real question was.

Mom
8th August 2008, 10:42
152 kms? There would be more than that on Aucks MW system alone surely?
Mmmm...I asked this question last year (although it was put to him as 'brifen barriers' and the answer came back 124kms. I thought he was playing semantics when he knew what the real question was.

The Auckland motorway is about 84 kms long from Orewa to Bombay, median WRB's on most of it, apart from in the city proper where there are concrete dividers.

Interesting answer though. I am going to get REALLY specific with my next question, I am going to ask him for road names and lengths of WRB not only on the SH network but anywhere on New Zealand roads. I will also ask for the specific brand of WRB used, where and why?

Lets see if I can get him to answer that one properly...LOL

Katman
8th August 2008, 10:46
Well about as useful as tits on a bull really. What part of the question did he not understand? Must have been where I asked anywhere on New Zealands roading network I guess.

*sigh*



It looks to me as if he answered exactly the question you asked. What part of his answer did you not understand?

MSTRS
8th August 2008, 10:48
This includes 84.5 kilometres of median barrier and 67.5 kilometres of side-protection barrier.




The Auckland motorway is about 84 kms long from Orewa to Bombay, median WRB's on most of it, apart from in the city proper where there are concrete dividers.


There ya go then...

I also understand that there are small amounts of wire-rope barrier installed on local authority roads.

Transit won't know much if anything about roads that are not under their direct control. I doubt that there is any of this shit on non-numbered roads.

Deano
8th August 2008, 10:52
Katman - there is a WRB installed on SH1 just North of Peka Peka. It is on the LHS of the road when heading South.

On the other side of the barrier is a ditch, barely a couple of feet deep (1 to 2ft deep) . What on earth is the purpose of the WRB ?

If a vehicle hits the WRB it will be projected back into traffic - personally I'd rather take my chances with the 'tiny' ditch.

Tell me this is not a crazy place to put a WRB ? (With evidence as to why not)

Katman
8th August 2008, 10:55
Tell me this is not a crazy place to put a WRB ? (With evidence as to why not)

I'm not denying that in the slightest.

I'm suggesting that those placing themselves at the forefront of the WRB campaign should at least be able to understand basic English.

MSTRS
8th August 2008, 10:59
Katman - there is a WRB installed on SH1 just North of Peka Peka. It is on the LHS of the road when heading South.

On the other side of the barrier is a ditch, barely a couple of feet deep (1 to 2ft deep) . What on earth is the purpose of the WRB ?

If a vehicle hits the WRB it will be projected back into traffic - personally I'd rather take my chances with the 'tiny' ditch.

Tell me this is not a crazy place to put a WRB ? (With evidence as to why not)

And that is on a straight section of road. What about all the right-hand bends this crap is being installed on the outside? Sometimes a flat grassy runoff is all that is behind it. Nice move Transit.

MSTRS
8th August 2008, 11:01
I'm not denying that in the slightest.

I'm suggesting that those placing themselves at the forefront of the WRB campaign should at least be able to understand basic English.

It's not the basic English in question here. It is the political English that we have trouble with. If not the out and out lies/obfuscations...

avgas
8th August 2008, 11:05
what part of the big concrete barrier between auckland city to Albany, auckland city to bombay, Auckland city to New Lynn is WRB.
Sorry im a little confused as you said that most between Orewa to Bombay is WRB?

I recall all of this simply because i cant see the cars on the other side on occasion

I would put Mr Transit NZ calculations about correct

avgas
8th August 2008, 11:09
Katman - there is a WRB installed on SH1 just North of Peka Peka. It is on the LHS of the road when heading South.

On the other side of the barrier is a ditch, barely a couple of feet deep (1 to 2ft deep) . What on earth is the purpose of the WRB ?
That is a bit silly - but to be highly expected when you let morons make the world safer for us.
Blaming the tool however gets us nowhere - it is people who are accountable really.
Would you blame the hammer if you hit yourself on the thumb?

MSTRS
8th August 2008, 11:13
That is a bit silly - but to be highly expected when you let morons make the world safer for us.
Blaming the tool however gets us nowhere - it is people who are accountable really.
Would you blame the hammer if you hit yourself on the thumb?

You are correct. And it is the people behind the decisions to use this crap that we are trying to 'reach'.
FYI a Transit official I have had reason to speak to directly about the subject tells me that he "will not have this shit in his region on his watch, but is more than his job is worth to openly support us tho". That tells you that there is an agenda in high places.

avgas
8th August 2008, 13:12
That tells you that there is an agenda in high places.
No it doesn't - it just tells you that some moron graduate roading engineer got it wrong.....again.
There is no plan, no scheme - Transit is not out to "get us"
I mean think about - why spend money on a redundant resource? to be scornful.

You sir obviously have not dealt with the morons that were given the pen before the shovel. They are everywhere (and some have been in their respective industry for over 20 years)

If you have friends in the industry and want to kick up a stink about it - do it right, get someone with qualifications to state why a particular site is a HAZARD.
H&S 1992 states that all Hazards should be contained, removed or sign posted.

I'm so sick of the Keyboard heroes that email stating "We are angry because the whole road is build wrong" - realistically it is impossible to make this scale of changes by just saying "Its wrong, change it".
If you want to get them - tell them why "site a" is bad, get your evidence accredited - nail them to the fucken wall and they will shift the blame to the project engineer, designer......the guy that made that decision.

Once that site has been cleaned up - move on to another.

Deano
8th August 2008, 13:15
Blaming the tool however gets us nowhere - it is people who are accountable really.
Would you blame the hammer if you hit yourself on the thumb?

When did I blame the WRB ?

I said it was located in a stupid place. It obviously didn't put itself there.

FFS - Keep it real.

MSTRS
8th August 2008, 13:33
No it doesn't - it just tells you that some moron graduate roading engineer got it wrong.....again.
There is no plan, no scheme - Transit is not out to "get us"
I mean think about - why spend money on a redundant resource? to be scornful.

You sir obviously have not dealt with the morons that were given the pen before the shovel. They are everywhere (and some have been in their respective industry for over 20 years)

If you have friends in the industry and want to kick up a stink about it - do it right, get someone with qualifications to state why a particular site is a HAZARD.
H&S 1992 states that all Hazards should be contained, removed or sign posted.

I'm so sick of the Keyboard heroes that email stating "We are angry because the whole road is build wrong" - realistically it is impossible to make this scale of changes by just saying "Its wrong, change it".
If you want to get them - tell them why "site a" is bad, get your evidence accredited - nail them to the fucken wall and they will shift the blame to the project engineer, designer......the guy that made that decision.

Once that site has been cleaned up - move on to another.

Are you for real? What is so hard to understand about what we are asking for? We do not want to deal site by site. It is a worldwide problem, that some countries have recognised and have done/are doing something about. But some prat(s) in this country have decided this WRB shit is the shizz and should be installed all over the place, needed or not. And I do mean 'or not' - refer Deano's post re Pekapeka. We are not up against an engineer...we are up against a taxpayer-funded organisation, with blind deaf idiots making decisions on our behalf.
Talked to the people who install/repair this shit? ...I have, and 9 out of 10 just shudder...they hate it, but need the wages.
Talked to people who have a few engineering clues?...I have and they know how to fix things.
Talked to truckies? ...I have and they know this shit is useless in stopping them.
Talked to anyone who knows the circumstances around Daniel's tragedy? ...thought not.
I resent the implication of 'keyboard heroes'
124 or 156 kms of this shit...the amount, in a lot of ways, doesn't matter. If you run into it on your bike, you are likely to be sliced'n'diced.

Deano
8th August 2008, 13:33
If you have friends in the industry and want to kick up a stink about it - do it right, get someone with qualifications to state why a particular site is a HAZARD.
H&S 1992 states that all Hazards should be contained, removed or sign posted.


Tui anyone ?

I just rang OSH and described that particular situation - they referred me to the Police, who promptly referred me to Transit...........:weird:

MSTRS
8th August 2008, 13:48
I just rang OSH and described that particular situation - they referred me to the Police, who promptly referred me to Transit...........

Typical.
Perhaps you could get someone who makes decisions at Transit HQ to instruct his department to all ride/pillion - watch the attitude to WRB change then....

Actually, what about FairGo?? If they ran a segment, the whole country would be made aware of our concerns, and why. Transit's 1 minute right of reply (justifying and extolling the virtues of this crap) could be dealt with right then.

cooneyr
8th August 2008, 13:53
The Auckland motorway is about 84 kms long from Orewa to Bombay, median WRB's on most of it, apart from in the city proper where there are concrete dividers.

Interesting answer though. I am going to get REALLY specific with my next question, I am going to ask him for road names and lengths of WRB not only on the SH network but anywhere on New Zealand roads. I will also ask for the specific brand of WRB used, where and why?

Lets see if I can get him to answer that one properly...LOL

Problem is there is a dosconnect between central government and local government when it comes to roading. Transit is a government agency so Harry can ring up Rick at Transit HO and get the answer for kms of WRB on State Highways peice of cake.

For Harry to ring each of the other Road Controlling Authorities (all 73 of them) is not really practical.

There is no reliable central repository of info on road data. There is a central database of sorts but it is pretty unreliable. Besides as others have said there is not a whole heap of WRB on local roads (non state highways). You probably have your answer to withing 10%.

Cheers R

McJim
8th August 2008, 13:58
There's about a kilometre of the stuff as a road edge protection in various lengths between Invergiggle and Bluff.

avgas
8th August 2008, 14:37
Are you for real? What is so hard to understand about what we are asking for? We do not want to deal site by site. It is a worldwide problem
Did it just get to cold for global warming?
I'm sorry i shouldn't discredit what you are doing - its not that i am completely against it, its just that you are, well to put it bluntly trying to piss against the ocean.

Surely you must see my reasoning that stating
"WRB's are bad..... m'kay" rather than actually taking a systematic approach to the situation is only going to get you looking like some kind of loopy.

If you dont believe me then look at the past. Look at where all the greenies are, look at Greenpeaces, WWF, CCF, Salvation Army, Anti-bikers, Pro-bikers, Anti-government, Anti-Boy racers, Anti-1080, Ride-to-survive, Anti-Teflon, Organic demanding people out there........now tell me you will clear all NZ roads of WRBs within 10 years.....the world within 20.

Please don't take it personally - i just stating without specific reasons for change why would they? Where is the cost benefit analysis? How many people will have to die until you have some statistics? 50? 100? 1000?
Right now the figures dont match up - but specific sites such as Deano addressed can be sort.....RIGHT NOW.....not in 20 years when its apparently "uncool" to have WRB.

avgas
8th August 2008, 14:39
Tui anyone ?
I just rang OSH and described that particular situation - they referred me to the Police, who promptly referred me to Transit...........:weird:
The bright side of this is - if you rip it out yourself, then their is no legal jurisdiction against you.
So whats stopping you do this is?

MSTRS
8th August 2008, 14:55
Surely you must see my reasoning that stating
"WRB's are bad..... m'kay" rather than actually taking a systematic approach to the situation is only going to get you looking like some kind of loopy.
.....
Please don't take it personally - i just stating without specific reasons for change why would they? Where is the cost benefit analysis? How many people will have to die until you have some statistics? 50? 100? 1000?
Right now the figures dont match up - but specific sites such as Deano addressed can be sort.....RIGHT NOW.....not in 20 years when its apparently "uncool" to have WRB.
This is one of those situations where one is either for or against. Your (first) post wasn't clear and you seemed to be putting down the efforts of those who are definitely against....
The thing is, Transit are well aware of what these things do to motorcyclists...they said in a report on barriers in general that they removed all references to motorcycle vs. WRB because "the figures skewed the findings" That would be the findings that Transit wanted. No study etc is needed - it's all been done before. And the figures don't lie. How do you think we know that at 70kph you will lose limbs - or that at 95-100kph you will die??

The bright side of this is - if you rip it out yourself, then their is no legal jurisdiction against you.
So whats stopping you do this is?

Tempting. And has been put forward before. The thing is, we want the general public on our side. And until they realise the dangers, we are only going to be 'bikies, and who cares...and now look what they're doing'.
Still mighty tempting....

avgas
8th August 2008, 16:30
Getting the public on your side, while is beneficial in the long run - actually is distracting you from getting resolutions right now.
Unless your burning cars in the street, pulling out the riot police while you throw molotov cocktails at buildings - the high powers to be will not pay any attention to you. I have seen very little change in NZ due to "Walks/hikois(sp)/signed pieces of paper", but i have seen a lot change with small movements, people protesting against 1 particular factory, 1 particular windfarm, 1 particular roading project.
The reason for this being is when it gets to that level - individual people are held accountable. Once you have bowled 2 or 3 of these things - you may even find that the companies will no longer fight against you - and may even seek some kind of common ground.
Think about how easy it has been for you to react to my comments in this thread? Now put yourself in Transit NZ's shoes - you have just been told that you are wrong - you would react exactly the same as what has happened in this thread.
To be defensive is to be human

RiderInBlack
8th August 2008, 16:57
Actually, what about FairGo?? If they ran a segment, the whole country would be made aware of our concerns, and why. Transit's 1 minute right of reply (justifying and extolling the virtues of this crap) could be dealt with right then.
Not that silly really, but think that "Target" might be closer. "60mins" or "Sunday" would be even better. How the hell do we get them interested though?

yungatart
8th August 2008, 17:07
Not that silly really, but think that "Target" might be closer. "60mins" or "Sunday" would be even better. How the hell do we get them interested though?

Jees, nothing like asking the tough questions first, eh?

TBH, I wish I knew....surely someone knows the producer of one of these shows and will sleep with him/her to get our story aired??

RiderInBlack
8th August 2008, 17:11
surely someone knows the producer of one of these shows and will sleep with him/her to get our story aired??:doctor:I'd even wear my Nursing Uniform for them (But do think that the idea of me sleeping with them would work better as a threat ;-) LOL).

McJim
8th August 2008, 20:10
Jees, nothing like asking the tough questions first, eh?

TBH, I wish I knew....surely someone knows the producer of one of these shows and will sleep with him/her to get our story aired??

I could always offer NOT to sleep with them - that's usually a far more persuasive argument than offering them my body :rofl:

Skyryder
9th August 2008, 19:57
You'd be better directing your questions to your MP. Somewhere in the system there will be the right answer. Tell your MP the reason you want to know this.

The question you need to ask Transit is how many kilometere's of wire rope the have ordered in the past and projected forcasts (how much rope) for the next financial year and any other pertinent information that may allow you to determine the extent that transit is intent on using the wire ropes for barriers on NZ roads etc. Send a copy of the letter that you send to transit to you MP.

Getting this information can be a long drawn out process. You questions have to be accurate. Bueaocrats go to great lengths to withhold information from the public and will fudge you at every opertunity. They no better than to treat MP's that way. Your MP is representative make him/her do the work for you.

Good luck. Skyryder