That's it. Not voting for Nat

[RiderInBlack]

"If elected, National would require those on the DPB to undertake part-time work once their youngest child is aged six or over. It will set a 15 hour a week minimum work requirement."
Have they no thought of what pressure that will put on genuie Solo Parents? Kid care as far as I am connerned is a full time job. It's an 24hr 7day-a-week on-call job. Reward those that do find work but back off those that find being a Solo Parent hard enough.

see:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/story.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10526362
&
http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/mp/4882067/national-focus-getting-beneficiaries-work

[ambler]

Once your youngest child is six or over, they will usually be at school for about 6 hours a day - is that really a 24/7 job then?

[tide]

mmm not wanting to bash on anybody... no I don't have any kids, but aren't kids older than 6 at school... so no day care etc.

drop kid off do 3 hours and head home or what ever...

[davereid]

The kiwi bludger system at work.

Why should I work to pay 38% tax so solo mums can stay at home with their kids ?

Maybe, I should be able to work 38% less, and spend some time with mine.

This is a very timid step, not a great raving bold one.

I can't understand why ANY benefit would be paid without effort from the recipient.

[Trudes]

Once your youngest child is six or over, they will usually be at school for about 6 hours a day - is that really a 24/7 job then?

My thought exactly. About time some people stopped thinking that having kids was a full time job. Parenting is a full-time job yes, but spitting another one out to a different fella every six years is not!
I watched this on the news just now about National's proposed welfare legislation if they are elected and now I think I may just vote for them.

[gunnyrob]

I reckon it's a good idea. If your ex is on the DPB all your child support payments go into a central slush fund to pay for the losers who don't pay. The ex was constantly bleating that she couldn't pay bills on the DPB, but after much cajoling, she finally got off her arse & got a job. She earns money, she gets my child support (much more than the DPB) and is now much more empowered

Fuck all the arseholes living on the dole for years too. Her first husband "retired" when he was made redundant at 40. He moved to Foxton beach & was on the dole until he reached 65 "because there weren't any jobs in his local area". Loser.

[RiderInBlack]

Why should I work to pay 38% tax so solo mums can stay at home with their kids ?Probably because the other half of that kid's gene make-up are not helping enough in the financial raising of the kid, and often the solo parents need to.

[Dave Lobster]

Why should anyone get free money just because they've got a child?

If they can't afford to take the time off to have them, it doesn't take a genius to work you should wait until you can..

[Sketchy_Racer]

I think that more people should see the DPB as a luxury that other working people pay for, and NOT a right to have.

It is there to help those that are in need, but don't try kid yourself that there arent thousands and thousands of people in this country bludging it. Just the same as the doll and acc.

I think that it is a a great idea from national.

[RiderInBlack]

Once your youngest child is six or over, they will usually be at school for about 6 hours a day - is that really a 24/7 job then?So what about the parents with special needs kids then?

[ambler]

Probably because the other half of that kid's gene make-up are not helping enough in the financial raising of the kid, and often the solo parents need to.

All the more reason to do some part time work. Or are you saying the other half should be required to pay 100% of the costs?

[rachprice]

Hmmm I agree it doesnt seem too much to ask to get them to work 15 hours a week after they are six, though I wonder why they are just picking on DPB? why not tackle dole as well.

[Str8 Jacket]

So what about the parents with special needs kids then?

I dare say they would have to make allowances for genuine needs. That's why there doing this in the first place. For every DPB recipient with a special needs child there is most likely a recipient who actually could work but can get away with not.....

[davereid]

Probably because the other half of that kid's gene make-up are not helping enough in the financial raising of the kid, and often the solo parents need to.

So.. I'm not related to the kid...

But I have to spend extra time at work, away from my kids so that the solo parent can watch Oprah ?


Thats what benefits are... extrahours at work for those not on them.

This proposal asks only for 15 hours. Less than 2 days work.

...Sounds like a fucken extra bloody ordinary good deal to me...

[Mom]

Probably because the other half of that kid's gene make-up are not helping enough in the financial raising of the kid, and often the solo parents need to.

I hear you Doug, but...

The reality is that a solo parent on the DPB gets a max payment of $12.50 per week (or it was recently) regardless of the amount of money that the other parent is bled dry by the system! Seriously, it is a terrible system, specially for the children!

I support having to work a few hours to maintain your benefit, particularly for solo parents. Keeps the brain engaged in what is required when you have to go out to work when your kids are no longer dependant and your DPB stops.

[Trudes]

Hmmm I agree it doesnt seem too much to ask to get them to work 15 hours a week after they are six, though I wonder why they are just picking on DPB? why not tackle dole as well.

They are. Unemployment beneficiaries that have been on it for more than a year and it was either the invalid's or sickness beneficiaries that will also have to be proved worthy. (I worded that badly, but I'm tired from working for my money)

[RiderInBlack]

My thought exactly. About time some people stopped thinking that having kids was a full time job. Parenting is a full-time job yes, but spitting another one out to a different fella every six years is not!Not all solo parents have "choosen" on purpose ta have kids on their own. I know so many that have have their child to someone they thought they would be with for a long time only ta have life pull that plug out on them one way or another.

By the way, I a single 45yr old male that has not kids of my own (that is just the way life has gone for me), BUT I have so many friend that are solo parents and most of them are struggling ta get by. They do not need smart arses that have had better luck in life giving them a hard time about not pulling their weight. It will not help them and does not help their kids. Reward those that make the effort, but don't knock those that are just trying ta get by.

[Sanx]

Sounds like a bloody good idea to me, tempered only by the fact it doesn't go anywhere near far enough. I'm entirely in favour of cutting benefit to absolute subsistence levels provided in the form of food and children's clothing vouchers. There are way too many people who simply can't be arsed to go find themselves a job and are content to sit there claiming every benefit known to man. Once these people find their smokes and booze is no longer available and they have no cash at all, perhaps they'd go and find some work.

Good start National, but take it to its logical conclusion.

[davereid]

I can't even really see why we need "sit down money" benefits.

What we really need is guaranteed employment.

Got no job ? No income ?

Show up at the job centre at 8am. Get allocated a job that meets your ability. Go home at 5pm with money you earned.

Got a bad back ? No worries. Got a don't-bend-down job for you.

Got kids ? No worries, put them in the creche, like other working mums do. Maybe if you are good, you can get a job there.

[pete376403]

So where are all these 15 hour per week jobs come from? Is there a large pool of part time jobs crying out to be filled at present?

[Trudes]

Not all solo parents have "choosen" on purpose ta have kids on their own. I know so many that have have their child to someone they thought they would be with for a long time only ta have life pull that plug out on them one way or another.

By the way, I a single 45yr old male that has not kids of my own (that is just the way life has gone for me), BUT I have so many friend that are solo parents and most of them are struggling ta get by. They do not need smart arses that have had better luck in life giving them a hard time about not pulling their weight. It will not help them and does not help their kids. Reward those that make the effort, but don't knock those that are just trying ta get by.

Chill out. I completely agree that there are people that have had kids and the situation changes for them and they are left on their own to look after and provide for the children, however National are not proposing to cut the DPB entirely, merely once your oldest child is 6 you need to participate in paid employment. There are a lot of people that continue to have children to stay on the DPB and not get a job, having more and more children is not an employment option. And believe me, I know people who have done this and are still doing it!

[MSTRS]

Sounds like a bloody good idea to me, tempered only by the fact it doesn't go anywhere near far enough. I'm entirely in favour of cutting benefit to absolute subsistence levels provided in the form of food and children's clothing vouchers. There are way too many people who simply can't be arsed to go find themselves a job and are content to sit there claiming every benefit known to man. Once these people find their smokes and booze is no longer available and they have no cash at all, perhaps they'd go and find some work.

Good start National, but take it to its logical conclusion.

Yep. Except those hardened bludgers (and we all know that there are entire family generations making a career that way) will just go out stealing etc.
The idea is good, :nono: you want to keep getting this or that benefit then you must be prepared to work x number of hours:nono:
The reality is that if no job happens, but the person is available for some (mythical?) job, then they will stay on their benefit at whatever level it always was. The important clause is 'must be able to work x number of hours if offered such work'...

[Naki Rat]

Not all solo parents have "choosen" on purpose ta have kids on their own............. .................... They do not need smart arses that have had better luck in life giving them a hard time about not pulling their weight. It will not help them and does not help their kids. Reward those that make the effort, but don't knock those that are just trying ta get by.

People don't just have kids by 'accident', it should be a conscious action with an awareness of its repercussions. Always consider the implications of being poked in fun being taken seriously.

"Better luck in life", is a crock in most cases, the harder you work the luckier you get. Genuine cases of bad fortune will be caught in a social safety net but the idea of the poor taxpayer having to support all in sundry is totally abhorent.

And it will help the 'paid to breed' brigade by forcing them to adopt an attitude adjustment that hopefully will be passed onto their offspring who will otherwise be raised in a house that considers sitting around as a normal way of life. Perhaps also getting in the way of the under the table jobs that beneficiaries all too often undertake as they rape the taxpayer from both ends simultaneously.

[Nasty]

Isn't it a labour policy that allows the taxpayers to support all parent with reduced childcare costs for 3 plus year olds for 20 hours a week ...

I have also known people on the DPB who have used the system to help them better themselves through training ... and that there is a HUGE benefit to them and society. They do say work OR study/training.

[Maha]

So where are all these 15 hour per week jobs come from? Is there a large pool of part time jobs crying out to be filled at present?


If someone cant find two days work per week then I beleive they dont deserve any handout/benefit/free coin, whatever you want to call it. Naturally, there are those that cant work (I am not talking about those people) but those that can?, theres work out there, most of it aint pretty, but its work.

When I left school, streight on the Dole. That was short lived, back then (late 70's) you had to accept a job offer or you lost the Dole for 26 weeks. I was put into a Parks and Reserve Gang.....cleaning creeks and pulling lake weed from the shores of Lake Rotorua. I didnt like it but I did it.

On the news tonight, a Farmer is having trouble by himself clearing debris from his fence's, needs extra hands, theres an opening for a few to get off their arse's and help a tax payer out. Who knows, it may even lead to a 'part time' job.

[Dave Lobster]

Surely they're not planning to 'force' people into work, merely take away their free money if they don't.

[DMNTD]

They do not need smart arses that have had better luck in life giving them a hard time about not pulling their weight.

It will not help them and does not help their kids. Reward those that make the effort, but don't knock those that are just trying ta get by.

But so many are NOT pulling their weight Dougy.
Before I met her Miss Unit was a solo parent but still managed a full time professional job earning good money.

Kids NEED to see their parents "working" in some context of the word or they will simply think that it is "normal" not to.

I too have seen it all too much Dougy...FFS 15 hours per week?

[scracha]

Not all solo parents have "choosen" on purpose ta have kids on their own. I know so many that have have their child to someone they thought they would be with for a long time only ta have life pull that plug out on them one way or another.

Yep, people get made into solo parents for various reasons. Contrary to popular belief, most solo parents want to be out working and hate bludgers as much as the next person....it's the crazy benefits system that effectively penalizes them for working that needs sort out.

And as for deadbeat dads, make them pay for their kids. Don't pay for your kid to the best of your abilities, you don't get visitation and you get chemically castrated.

[MadDuck]

Well its about time a government made this call. There people out there working one and two jobs just to feed the kids but get such minimal help.

Personally I prefer to help someone that is prepared to help themself. Bring on National i say ....

Problem is that means voting for Lockwood Smith for our local MP and that kind of sucks

[ambler]

Hmm... I think the 'x hours a week' requirement is missing the point. Why the need to confiscate peoples time like that?
What if the requirement was to earn the equivalent of 15 hours at minimum wage per week. In most cases this would provide incentive to find a job with a better earn/time ratio, instead of just 'doing the time'.
Actually I wouldn't be surprised if this is actually how the policy is intended...
Taking it one step further, the more the person earns you could increase the DPB given at the same rate (to some limit obviously). This would provide a whole lot more incentive. As long as you kept the DPB increase less than the income tax earned, it wouldn't cost anything either.

[DMNTD]

Yep, people get made into solo parents for various reasons. Contrary to popular belief, most solo parents want to be out working and hate bludgers as much as the next person....it's the crazy benefits system that effectively penalizes them for working that needs sort out.

The system is a lot better re helping people( on DPB,Invalids/Sickness) into work than what many realise...especially when it comes to training/preparing for the work force...
If someone wants I job,they should get one and utilise the options given to them.
If one does NOT want to get a job...they should fend for themselves.

[The Stranger]

So history repeats about every 40 years.

I'm all for the sentiment, I just hope it's not the absolute disaster and financial burden on the tax payer that it was last time they tried something similar.

[Skyryder]

Yep Sue Bradford sumed it up on the new tonight. Here we are heading for a recession and Key and his cronies come up with 'go look for a job' or get some training. Not hard to see where that is heading.


Skyryder

[The Stranger]

Kids NEED to see their parents "working" in some context of the word or they will simply think that it is "normal" not to.

I too have seen it all too much Dougy...FFS 15 hours per week?

Very wise words there sir. Many's the time I have thanked my father for showing me how to work hard. I have also seen a lot of kids with absolutely no idea what hard work is.

[Toaster]

The kiwi bludger system at work.

Why should I work to pay 38% tax so solo mums can stay at home with their kids ?

Maybe, I should be able to work 38% less, and spend some time with mine.


Well said!! Completely agree. Especially when they then go on to have multiple kids STILL getting the DPB!

Some long time beneficiaries even consider their taxpayer funded benefits as a "wage" - it is about time the workers got some back - we work so hard for what we have and have so much taken off us - yet we make so many sacrifices to get where we are.... including missing out on seeing our kids.

[MadDuck]

I have also seen a lot of kids with absolutely no idea what hard work is.

I have the absolute dispair of being in a work place where young people are hired on a part time basis. I cant agree more with your sentiment.

Not only do they not know hard work but they get a real shock when discipline is instilled in them. Even just their lack of respect for their seniors is quite shocking!

[DMNTD]

When I was on a "long term" Invalids Benefit due to acute spinal issues (yes genuine too mofo's) ,one case officer told me that I would never have to work again...it was the best motivation that I have ever received!

Life is full of choices...I chose flash bikes and living without my hand out.

[MD]

I'm surprised how gentle and fair Nats proposals are! Definitely a move in the right direction.

There's been some silly knee-jerk 'mis-information' responses as expected from Helen almighty and Sue fatfoot.
Helen bleated about the poor solo parent with a severely sick/disabled child - read it again Aunty- subject to comprehensive assessment'

Sue- where are these thousands of jobs going to come from..."
Dipshit, National aren't proposing that benficiaries MUST get a job. They MUST undergo suitable training to help them get a job, or under go free drug/alcohol treatment to HELP make them more likely to get a job, and they MUST accept any suitable job offer.
Sounds fair to me, particular since taxpayers MUST donate a share of their hard earned wages to these people.

From the release statement:
They would face a "comprehensive work assessment" and would be made to take steps to secure work, including practical training, basic skills courses or drug and alcohol rehabilitation.
"After that, they will be required to actively look for a job, go to any job interview they are referred to, and accept any suitable offer of employment. If they don't comply with these obligations, their benefits will be reduced in the first instance, then suspended, then cancelled.''

[Dave Lobster]

Even just their lack of respect for their seniors is quite shocking!

Punch them. Little c*nts.

[Big Dave]

I chose flash bikes and living without my hand out.


Now if you could just get it off your.....good onya.

I'm 95% recovered from a minor spinal injury. Ferk ya up hey.
Toughed it out because for the money it wasn't worth having the Govt and ACC in my life.

[Gremlin]

a lot of kiwis have no idea what REAL poverty is. Real poverty is living in a "house" made of scraps/rubbish salvaged from wherever, no running water, no electricity etc. The benefits that are "paid" to people are taken from those working hard, the theory being that it helps those who need it. Not a career, with a part time job in theft (which does happen).

Yes, there are those that RiB mentions... however, there is also the flip side of the coin. My mother is a special education advisor for the ministry, assisting the kids with special needs stay in school, customising programs for them, helping them learn etc. She did a home visit to one house, who claimed they couldn't afford food for school, and appropriate clothing, yet they had a flippin great LCD TV. We survive on a 25" Flat screen CRT just fine...

The rules are subject to assesment anyway, and I'd be fucked if my taxes are going to people who don't like working.

[avgas]

Kids should be like bikes.
If you cant afford them you cant have them.
Don't even get me started on animals.
Yes i am biased and bitter. And no i dont have kids - what to know why its called respect and its in line 2.
Some day i will have kids, and i will MAKE time for them. Until them im saving my coins so i dont have to ride someone elses horse.

[MisterD]

Yep Sue Bradford sumed it up on the new tonight. Here we are heading for a recession and Key and his cronies come up with 'go look for a job' or get some training. Not hard to see where that is heading.


Skyryder

What? People with skills ready and waiting to work when the economy picks up?

How many Islanders do we bus in every fruit picking season? There are still plenty of jobs out there (http://tvhe.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/june-08-labour-market-part-two-revenge-of-the-hours-worked/) don't believe everything the MSM tells you.

[Swoop]

So, currently we (the dumb arse taxpayer) are paying for people to sit on their arse watching oprah winfrey while their 6yr old is off at school.

15hrs. What a huge burden for them.<_<

[ajturbo]

when i was on the DPB.. i was needing a help, a new 9 year old... had NO IDEA WTF to do.. mentally fucked. couldn't work if i wanted to!..

that lasted less than a year..
how much tax did i pay before that?... 100's of thousands!!

(i used to be on 110k AFTER tax... you work it out)

i needed "time out".. and the state was there..

but
i support the Nat's on this one..

while Luke was at school i should have been doing SOMETHING apart from spotting the talent at the beach...
and if i had been pushed into something (re-training, part time work) would i be in a much better position now?...
not sure.. but it would have been better for me mentaly...

[jrandom]

It's a great policy.

I know a fair few single mums who hold down jobs and are far better for it, both financially and mentally.

The fact that the policy's only applied to those on the DPB without any kids under 6 is what makes it fair and intelligent.

Makes great sense. Frankly, anyone with kids to provide for who can happily stay home alone all day from 9 to 3 without working or studying needs a good hard kick up the arse.

[ajturbo]

It's a great policy.

Frankly, anyone with kids to provide for who can happily stay home alone all day from 9 to 3 without working or studying needs a good hard kick up the arse.

and that is what i needed....

i was looked after.. mothered..

i didn't need that.. i needed a good kicking to get back to the real world...
a world where I supported myself and luke.. on my own..

sure i still get $64/month from his mother what does that cover?????

err .. the milk he drinks.... thats all...:girlfight:

[ajturbo]

And as for deadbeat dads, make them pay for their kids. Don't pay for your kid to the best of your abilities, you don't get visitation and you get chemically castrated.

hey big guy.. don't forget the
"deadbeat MUM"S!!!!".. they TOO should be made to pay!!!!!:bash:

yer a nerve,,:pinch:

[jrandom]

and that is what i needed....

i was looked after.. mothered..

i didn't need that.. i needed a good kicking to get back to the real world...
a world where I supported myself and luke.. on my own..

:yes:

I was speaking from personal experience, too, of watching the personal progression of my ex-wife over the last couple of years.

She has full-time custody of our kids (I get them every second weekend), and over the last year has finally motivated herself into getting off her arse (after all this time - woulda been nice if she'd done it while she was with me instead of just bleeding me dry, but, oh well, ho hum) and has actually made something of her life.

She still gets a fair amount of financial support from me, but it's not so much about money as it is about self-respect.

Being self-sufficient, instead of just having me or the Gubmint giving her handouts every week, has made her a better person. More independent, happier, more fulfilled.

It's easy to get stuck in a rut and fail to realise the benefits of getting out of it. This new policy from National will undoubtedly do thousands of single parents a world of good.

[James Deuce]

My word. The sheer range of assumptions raised is breathtaking. Lots of them from blokes who have no concept of what bloody hard work looking after kids is. "I've been at work 8 hours, and the house is STILL a tip." Arrogant wanker.

The basic assumption is that there are employers out there able to employ ALL the "unemployed" DPB "bludgers" in a job that has hours that won't conflict with school hours. I can guarantee that most 15 hour jobs out there, WON'T be child friendly. It'll be stacking supermarket shelves at midnight or cleaning toilets at Sky City. In 25 years of working I've seen one employer make allowances for one employee who had kids whilst working for that same employer and employer wanted them back. The worker managed to negotiate 9am to 2:30pm. National are the sort of people who legislate this sort of thing and then stand back and roundly criticise the people who fail to take advantage of their munificence.

What about the DPB "bludger" with a disabled kid. Childcare won't take them, unless you pay for the "specially" trained worker who gets $2/hour more than the rest of the daycare workers. State schools are increasingly refusing to take disabled children, citing safety and funding. Increasingly, the schools that do take them on are wanting $250 per week to help fund the Education Support Worker supposedly funded by a Govt. organisation called Special Education Services.

Helen Clark, John Key, it doesn't matter. One is childless and has no idea. The other is so mind numbingly rich that the fact that someone ran out of money three days before pay day or "bludger" day is dismissed as being typical lower socio-economic stupidity. It couldn't possibly be the fact that an After-hours clinic costs $50 for a kid at 11pm, and that $50 would have comfortably done the job of feeding everyone. No. They're all smoking, drinking, gambling losers, and none of them have a genuine reason for being on the DPB.

Ivory tower, brioche munching upper middle class attitudes. If you can afford a bike you're upper middle class. Stop looking down your bloody sniffy noses and pontificating about stuff you know nothing about. If my wife went back to work full time we'd be worse off. I'd have to get a job with regular hours and lesser pay, and all of her wages would be gone in after school care and specialist day care, plus some of mine. She'd also be on rostered rotating shift work, so my workload would be phenomenal.

Why should you pay tax so people can "sit on their fat lazy arses"? Because one day it might be you.

[Dave Lobster]

Why should your pay tax so people can "sit on their fat lazy arses"? Because one day it might be you.

No, it wont. Because if we ever have children, we'll make damn sure we can afford them first.

[BIHB@0610]

My word. The sheer range of assumptions raised is breathtaking. Lots of them from blokes who have no concept of what bloody hard work looking after kids is. "I've been at work 8 hours, and the house is STILL a tip." Arrogant wanker.

The basic assumption is that there are employers out there able to employ ALL the "unemployed" DPB "bludgers" in a job that has hours that won't conflict with school hours.
.........
What about the DPB "bludger" with a disabled kid. Childcare won't take them, unless you pay for the "specially" trained worker who gets $2/hour more than the rest of the daycare workers.
.....
Ivory tower, brioche munching upper middle class attitudes....... If you can afford a bike you're upper middle class. Stop looking down your bloody sniffy noses and pontificating about stuff you know nothing about.

Why should your pay tax so people can "sit on their fat lazy arses"? Because one day it might be you.

For a start, they're not telling people they have to work. They are saying work OR study. Study is a good thing - far from the idyllic existence, being a stay-at-home mum can be incredibly isolating and a lot of women lose confidence after a few years. Study can help ease you back into the work-force - is good for you.

I agree with you about disabled kids (but I'm not sure they wouldn't treat caregivers of disabled kids differently??. But instead of looking at this like a punishment, look at it as an opportunity for the parent of the disabled child to get back on their feet, get a break, and get a life of their own through study or part time work. Of course, Govt needs to ensure proper care for the child .... whole other story.

I don't think it's an ivory tower attitude - and I know a lot about it, having been a stay-at-home mum for five years, and now working full time while raising my three boys on my own. Look for the positives, instead of criticising. It's a good opportunity for a lot of parents to better themselves - one day their kids will leave home and they'll need a life of their own :yes:

Oh and I will never be lazy - so it will never be me. I will happily pay my tax to help someone get back on their feet, but some NZers seem to forget these benefits are supposed to be a temporary measure, a stop-gap - not a way of life!

[emaN]

Why should your pay tax so people can "sit on their fat lazy arses"? Because one day it might be you.
ya got some good points in there JD...only thing/change I would point out is:

"Why should you pay tax so people can "sit on their fat lazy arses" indefinitely?"

There's a time for everything; there's a time to work hard-out, raise a family with all the hectic-ness that goes hand in hand with it, and there's quite possibly a time to be unemployed.

As long as,
this unemployed time period doesn't drag on indefinitely.
As long as, it doesn't become a lifestyle.

I resent paying tax (and having vehicle & fuel taxes siphoned off towards) a pool of money which is weekly dished out to those for whom it has become (out of choice) a lifestyle.

[alanzs]

If you can afford a bike you're upper middle class.

Not necessarily true. I rode a bike for many years because it was cheaper than a car and I was not middle class, by any means or measure.

[emaN]

I recently found out my cousin & his partner (&five kids) are getting close to $1,000 per week!!
They are 'registered as' living at different addresses...
I am ashamed of them and their 'thieving' attitude.
I'm this close to saying something to the family; if that don't help, I'll be taking it further.

[Brett]

That policy is one of the reasons I WILL be voting Nats. Once a kid is at school, 15 hrs per week is EASILY achievable, and every person able should contribute.Too many young teen mums have gotten knocked up because of the benefits they recieve. I know a family where both daughters have got preggy just for the easy cash. Got to remove this mindset. yesterday would not have been soon enough in my opinion.

[devnull]

Why should your pay tax so people can "sit on their fat lazy arses"? Because one day it might be you.

Not bloody likely pal... We made sure we could afford kids before we had them.
And if I should ever end up out of work, NO job would be beneath me if it means being able to put food on the table

Too many kiwis have no pride any more...

And you can thank the DPB for aiding in getting those child abuse stats up
Some key risk indicators:
low maternal age at birth
low maternal education level

Well done socialists....

[Brett]

Not bloody likely pal... We made sure we could afford kids before we had them.
And if I should ever end up out of work, NO job would be beneath me if it means being able to put food on the table

Too many kiwis have no pride any more...

And you can thank the DPB for aiding in getting those child abuse stats up
Some key risk indicators:
low maternal age at birth
low maternal education level

Well done socialists....

Here here mon frer.

[jrandom]

I can guarantee that most 15 hour jobs out there, WON'T be child friendly. It'll be stacking supermarket shelves at midnight or cleaning toilets at Sky City.

Like Planna said, you forget the 'study' option.

To expand on my earlier post, my ex-wife is halfway through a two-year full-time diploma in sports massage therapy, and is already taking clients on for relaxation massage work.

On the days when she needs to be in town for lectures and whatnot, the kids stay at after-school care at their primary school until 6pm. It's cheap and well-run.

When we were together, she always threw the "we'd be worse off if I worked" line at me (it was motivated by her fear of getting out there rather than by any real financial analysis). But being on her own has forced her to think laterally, hence the full-time study (funded via an interest-free student loan, naturally) for a profession that doesn't force her into a 9-5 office job.

There are many ways of earning a living that do not involve sitting at a desk for set business hours or performing menial labour in the middle of the night.


Why should your pay tax so people can "sit on their fat lazy arses"? Because one day it might be you.

Indeed.

Right this minute it's my kids living off it. I'm not in a position to fully support them and their mum from where I stand now, so I'd be fucked without it.

Nobody's saying that the DPB is a bad idea, but effective management of it to ensure that it remains a safety net rather than a lifestyle choice is an excellent goal, and this policy furthers that goal very nicely, IMHO.

[R1madness]

Go national. The more they put the pressure on bludgers the more hard working kiwis will vote for them. I am sick to death of hearing about the poor single parents, dole bludgers, criminals, and all the others that rip off my taxes and do nothing for the country. We need a system that rewards hard work, not bludgers.

[Brett]

It seems that in life there are two kinds of person (as a generalisation).

1) Those who go out into the world determined to make something of themselves and wo make the very best of their life possible, while not expecting anyone else to make it happen for them or to be the wave that they can surf.

2) Those who want to ride the system, happy to be the status below quo and who are basically non-productive. There are plenty of solo mums out there who hold down 75% - full time jobs and make the very best of what is really a fairly difficult situation. These I would not put into the same category as a DPB bum.

Now, what would be fair, is if the mum who goes out and works for and does her best to priovide for her family (while also being a mum who balances life and is at home with the kids to do homework, make sure healthy food is eaten etc.) is given some extra incentive. If she is doing the very best for her family, then shit...if the bills are coming in a bit short now and again, I beleive she should be helped. But to sit on ones arse and expect it to be coming their way...that is puire arrogance and laziness.

[puddy]

I'll be voting National again.............. but what worries me is that as long as your youngest is younger than six...........(solution-just keep having kids!)...........we sterilise animals............more's the pity! Yes ....I know, I'm a NAZI! (FU##EN liberals!)

[Robert Taylor]

Go national. The more they put the pressure on bludgers the more hard working kiwis will vote for them. I am sick to death of hearing about the poor single parents, dole bludgers, criminals, and all the others that rip off my taxes and do nothing for the country. We need a system that rewards hard work, not bludgers.

Absolutely. They talk about stress on DPB mums, what about stress on businessmen? Oh sorry thats right, being in business is a license to print money.
Actually working for a living is a concept foreign to too many of our countrymen and it is high time that we get back to reality. The Government is there as a safety net, not as a means of living.
National will gain more votes than lose them on this policy.

[RiderInBlack]

No, it wont. Because if we ever have children, we'll make damn sure we can afford them first.
I have seen life twist that one around so many times. How can you be so sure that you will be able to "afford" kids until they can support themselves? What if one of you leaves, You get badly injured and need care yourself, you get made redundant or are fired, after you have had the kids?
Are you not going ta have sex or have ya tubes tired until ya can afford kids? Don't be so sure that having "protected sex" is going ta work 100% at stopping pregnancy. Have friends with kids due to failed condoms and pills not working. One of them only got pregnant on the pill.

[yungatart]

So where are all these 15 hour per week jobs come from? Is there a large pool of part time jobs crying out to be filled at present?

Plenty of schools are crying out for trained teacher aides. A maximum of 26 hours per week, term time only. A lot of schools will even fund the training.

[davereid]

Somehow there seems to be an attitude from Sue Bradford and some others posting here, that working for a living is punishment !

Almost like the Nats are trying to ruin peoples lives by leading them by the nose to work.

I've always seen work as opportunity, a way of improving my life, and my families life.

New Zealanders are slowly but surely becoming addicted to welfare, possibly encouraged by policies like the DPB and working for families.

For my money, this policy by the Nats is a small, and timid step in the right direction !

[MSTRS]

Whilst there are many people who need (rather than want) the DPB, which is what it, and the dole, was designed for, the problem is that it became the easy option and open to abuse. There are 3rd generation benefit kids now spitting out the next round of future recipients. Something has to change. Now.
The biggest problem that I have with any benefit is that everytime a recipient has another kid, the amount they receive is increased. That right there is all the incentive anyone could want to stay on to bludger lists. My opinion is that the system should be changed to negate entitlement to extra with kids (conceived) produced whilst on said benefit. Perhaps that will be the next move in breaking the cycle of dependency?

[Oscar]

"If elected, National would require those on the DPB to undertake part-time work once their youngest child is aged six or over. It will set a 15 hour a week minimum work requirement."
Have they no thought of what pressure that will put on genuie Solo Parents? Kid care as far as I am connerned is a full time job. It's an 24hr 7day-a-week on-call job. Reward those that do find work but back off those that find being a Solo Parent hard enough.

see:
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/story.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10526362
&
http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/mp/4882067/national-focus-getting-beneficiaries-work


Why should parents on the DPB have the luxury of making that choice?
There are plenty of working parents who don't get to stay at home at all. The kid goes to a creche ASAP so as the parents can make ends meet.

[Pixie]

If one DPB recipient can manage to work in his/her spare time,they all fuckin' can

[Oscar]

BTW: Who heard our wonderful Prime Minister refer to solo parents on RNZ as "Heroines"?!

[McDuck]

Ifi can do 30+ hours a week of work plus a 'full time' course why cant a mother get of there bums and do somthing? I am not saying full time-hell 3 days a week of 5 hours a day would do? I know of two single mothers that have full time jobs as well as 3 kids each. And the kids are absolutly fantastic, they live in a nice but not swankey house etc and it is BECAUSE of the mothers hard work they got where they are and the kids as like they are. The apple dosnt fall far from the tree, if the tree is a lazy arssed dole bludger then the apple will be to (90% of the time).


I know there are special scercemstances where this dose not apply but there cant be that many.

[Jorja]

I was a solo mother for 10 years. During that time I worked full time as a chef. The boys were below school age and the child care was crippling. But I prefer my independance.

Changed careers when they went to school so I could spend more time with them.

It is possible to work while being a solo parent and my kids have a very good work ethic and my 12 year recently got himself a paper route to earn enough money for a laptop.

Would he have had the same drive if I had stayed home? I have no idea. But I am really proud of how hard he works.

[awayatc]

Good on ya Jorja.....and your boys.

You want something, you gotto work for it
you want more, you gotta work more.....
Or work smarter.....

Handouts are crippling

[McDuck]

I was a solo mother for 10 years. During that time I worked full time as a chef. The boys were below school age and the child care was crippling. But I prefer my independance.

Changed careers when they went to school so I could spend more time with them.

It is possible to work while being a solo parent and my kids have a very good work ethic and my 12 year recently got himself a paper route to earn enough money for a laptop.

Would he have had the same drive if I had stayed home? I have no idea. But I am really proud of how hard he works.

Congrats. The comment regarding the apple dosnt fall farr from the tree gos both ways.

[Maha]

Anthem for all those who dont work.


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[mark247]

I think it's a great idea. I'm going to vote for National twice!

[shafty]

I was a solo mother for 10 years. During that time I worked full time as a chef. The boys were below school age and the child care was crippling. But I prefer my independance.

Changed careers when they went to school so I could spend more time with them.

It is possible to work while being a solo parent and my kids have a very good work ethic and my 12 year recently got himself a paper route to earn enough money for a laptop.

Would he have had the same drive if I had stayed home? I have no idea. But I am really proud of how hard he works.

Congratulations Jorja, - I too reckon gettin kids earn pocket money is the best start in life they could get. Not always poss I know, but the National approach is aimed at the mainstream career Benefit claimant

[MIXONE]

Fully 1/3 of our tax take goes on benefits of some kind.
Less people on benefits=more tax $ for education,health,roading etc.

[Skyryder]

Not all solo parents have "choosen" on purpose ta have kids on their own. I know so many that have have their child to someone they thought they would be with for a long time only ta have life pull that plug out on them one way or another.

By the way, I a single 45yr old male that has not kids of my own (that is just the way life has gone for me), BUT I have so many friend that are solo parents and most of them are struggling ta get by. They do not need smart arses that have had better luck in life giving them a hard time about not pulling their weight. It will not help them and does not help their kids. Reward those that make the effort, but don't knock those that are just trying ta get by.

I'm with you on this one RB. There's too much generalization with Keys policy but it's there only for those that see all beneficiaries as being in the same basket. Once they bring in the core policy they will rachet it up even further. Fifteen hours will upped to twentyfive, given over to private enterprise to administer with bonuses to the CEO for savings etc. Having said that there are far too many young teenage girls who do see the DPB as a free ride. They are far too young to understand the implications of deliberatley getting pregnant for a free ride. I would have liked to see some policy and resourses for combating this. Key has just 'lashed out' at all beneficiaries for no other reason than political purposes. For someone who takes pride that he came from a 'benifit' family it would be interesting to know the working circumstances of his family.


Skyryder

[Skyryder]

What? People with skills ready and waiting to work when the economy picks up?

How many Islanders do we bus in every fruit picking season? There are still plenty of jobs out there (http://tvhe.wordpress.com/2008/08/07/june-08-labour-market-part-two-revenge-of-the-hours-worked/) don't believe everything the MSM tells you.


Treasury's view of last month's indicators add to a growing body of opinion the economy is in recession and it says things might not improve until towards the end of the year.

from http://www.stuff.co.nz/4644005a13.html

Cullen believes it will pick up but at present treasury is of the opinion that we are now in a recession which is what Bradford said on the News 11-8-08.


Skyryder

[MSTRS]

Key has just 'lashed out' at all beneficiaries for no other reason than political purposes. For someone who takes pride that he came from a 'benifit' family it would be interesting to know the working circumstances of his family.


Bullshit. No matter the background of a polly, if the idea is sound it will work on it's own merits.
And the idea of breaking the benefit cycle is good. Time someone did something. If nothing changes, then guess what...nothing changes.

[mstriumph]

People don't just have kids by 'accident', ..........

unfortunately they do
and the current system, both in nz and oz, encourages them to turn that one mistake into a lifelong career financed from the public purse

reform is necessary - compassionate reform that breaks the cycle without penalizing the minority special needs cases

[Swoop]

Cullen believes it will pick up...

Cullen is a fuckwit who struggles to count to ten using his fingers. Mr Cheshire Cat should be minister of paper clips.


Anyway, back on topic.
Sanx posted a superb comment regarding another similar topic (the dole).
Paraphrased and adjusted to relevance here: "The (DPB) should be there as a safety net, not a hammock".
Quite true!
NZ has a "breeding industry" that established itself as a lifestyle choice for some.

[Skyryder]

Bullshit. No matter the background of a polly, if the idea is sound it will work on it's own merits.
And the idea of breaking the benefit cycle is good. Time someone did something. If nothing changes, then guess what...nothing changes.

If Keys ideas are sound why does he do so many U Turns. This is not about getting benificeries into the work force and any one who believes that needs dose of reality pills. This policy is for the Provider Industry. It is simply there to change subsidy(benifit) of the indaviduls to the Provider sector. This was tried once before and it was a disaster.
As to the Keys background I agree that ideas must be sound but the childs background sets the tone for adult life. Key comes from a background of social benifits which he 'trades off' politicly. His working life is that of a money trader who contributes nothing to the economy. Like I said the background sets the standard for Adult life.


Skyryder

[Dilligaf]

If Keys ideas are sound why does he do so many U Turns. This is not about getting benificeries into the work force and any one who believes that needs dose of reality pills. This policy is for the Provider Industry. It is simply there to change subsidy(benifit) of the indaviduls to the Provider sector. This was tried once before and it was a disaster.


Skyryder


Then why are so many providers now moving to an outcomes based model? I know in the Waikato, over half of the providers have gone out of business simply because they were not outcome based and could not provide results for the MSD.

[Skyryder]

Cullen is a fuckwit who struggles to count to ten using his fingers. Mr Cheshire Cat should be minister of paper clips.


Anyway, back on topic.
Sanx posted a superb comment regarding another similar topic (the dole).
Paraphrased and adjusted to relevance here: "The (DPB) should be there as a safety net, not a hammock".
Quite true!
NZ has a "breeding industry" that established itself as a lifestyle choice for some.


Yes I agree that the DPB should be used as a safety net. However that was not it's intention when Kirk bought this in. I think it was Kirk. The DPB was a benifit to give married woman, not solo mothers, a benifit so that they could get out of violent and bad marriages. At present both Labour and National have not made any significant attempts to bring the DPB back into line for it's intended purpose. If Key had focused on unmarried mothers, those that deliberaltly get pregnant for a free ride, instead of lumping all solo parnets into the same basket I might have been a bit more sympathetic to this but he has not. Instead this has all been lumped together as one.


Skyryder

[MSTRS]

If Keys ideas are sound why does he do so many U Turns.

Cos he hasn't learned the black art of teflon....
I agree sort of re the back into work thing, but wanting to break the cycle of state dependency has to start somewhere. Ultimately, it is the state telling lazy arses that the writing is on the wall for their choice of lifestyle. How many people do you know that feel useless without a job, and will do almost anything to change that? There are great wodges of beneficeries that feel no such thing, and there is no incentive for them to change anything.

[Skyryder]

Then why are so many providers now moving to an outcomes based model? I know in the Waikato, over half of the providers have gone out of business simply because they were not outcome based and could not provide results for the MSD.


That's the way it should be but I see no policy that Keys Providers need to be outcome based. So far all that he has said it that benificieries must enroll in some kind of training. I suspect that Schools may be employed in this training which in itself is an improvement from the past. But given that there is a perception that Key wants to privatise the education system it seems to me (early that it is) that many providers will simply just set themselves up as schools for the cash cow than private education will become.


Skyryder

[Swoop]

At present both Labour and National have not made any significant attempts to bring the DPB back into line for it's intended purpose.
Well labour has had nine years to attend to it, but there is bugger all chance of them doing anything like that.
They have to build the perfect nanny state to protect us from ourselves and encourage this.

National will have a massive task, when elected, of changing the mindset of the population away from the "big brother" state mentality.

[Lias]

Where's the party that wants to require manadatory licenses to breed!

They'll get my vote.. Some people just shouldnt breed.

[Guitana]

Receiving a benefit in this country shouldn't be a right it should be a privilege!
Labour started wiping the lifers off it's books by shifting them sideways onto the sickness benefit.

Doctor: What seems to be the problem?

Beneficiary: Oh bro I can't get up in the mornings and everytime I do some manual labour i get bad headaches and feel really sick!

Doctor: You seem to be allergic to any type of employment! Heres an ounce of the best dak this side of the bombay hills and two crates of Lion Red!:doctor:

Everytime I get payed I'm not only supporting my family but two other families with my tax! Time for change this country needs to move ahead without the weight of freeloaders holding it down!
And I don't mean those mothers who need assistance either, and I think you'll find they are not the target of this policy.:niceone::niceone:

[avgas]

Why should your pay tax so people can "sit on their fat lazy arses"? Because one day it might be you.
Nah allready been past that point before in my life, income was $150 (student loan) + 10+hours x $8/hr (before tax).
On a bad day/week where i had to call in sick i couldn't get your "benefit" as i was on casual income.
Out goings were always a minimum $175+ / week.
I was at Uni 8am-8pm, so work had to fall outside those hours. Study likewise.
You can live for about 8-10 months getting less that 5 hours sleep.
To top things off i am now paying all that money back into the system.
I hope to have a house within 10 years time, then i will look at having a kid hopefully in the next 5-10.

While i never claimed that life is easy for mums/dads (infact watching my sis become a young mum takes years off my life)..... i do believe that if you have the will, you can work 10 hours minimum a week. I would rather pay my money to see a parent get some time away from the kids everyday - getting some work skills into them.
But then again that does come down to self improvement - if you only see yourself as a parent, you will only be a parent. The job will consume you if you allow it.

[peasea]

Receiving a benefit in this country shouldn't be a right it should be a privilege!
Labour started wiping the lifers off it's books by shifting them sideways onto the sickness benefit.

Doctor: What seems to be the problem?

Beneficiary: Oh bro I can't get up in the mornings and everytime I do some manual labour i get bad headaches and feel really sick!

Doctor: You seem to be allergic to any type of employment! Heres an ounce of the best dak this side of the bombay hills and two crates of Lion Red!:doctor:

Everytime I get payed I'm not only supporting my family but two other families with my tax! Time for change this country needs to move ahead without the weight of freeloaders holding it down!
And I don't mean those mothers who need assistance either, and I think you'll find they are not the target of this policy.:niceone::niceone:

Well said. I've been down and broken arsed, climbed back out etc. The dole is a hand up, not a hand out, therein lies the difference. It's too easy to get and too easy to stay on.

I have a sister who was a deserving case for the DPB, abusive hubby (wanker) three neat kids, she had to walk out, she was living in fear and so were the kids.

She worked while on the DPB (just cleaning etc for a pittance) and while that might be illegal she had to do that in order to pay the bills, the DPB didn't cover it all. Nothing came from the hubby and how he got away with it I don't know. My well-heeled brother helped her heaps, so did my olds and I fixed her (small) car when required.

She lived with truckloads of hand-me-downs, scummy furniture, basic food, a crap tv and so on. It drives me nuts seeing people on the dole/DPB watching SKY, drinking piss and sitting on their arses all day.

I have no problem helping people out in tough times (or with genuine disablities) but once the able bodied are over that hurdle it has to be back to work.

[Murray]

It drives me nuts seeing people on the dole/DPB watching SKY, drinking piss and sitting on their arses all day.


Unfortunately its quite easy when you get a group of friends/mates or extended family together. I remember the case of the 15 or so people living in the same housing corp house and garage and getting over $2k in benefit payments a week.

Unfortunately making these sort of people work employed does not work. Whose going to employ someone going for a job interview wearing a bandanna or the like?? May all that will happen is that they have a life of continual training just to remain on the benefit.

Conspiracy theory here but could the Labour Govt be encouraging people to continue on the benefit and keep having kids because they know they will vote for them in the future???? Long term planning???

[peasea]

Unfortunately its quite easy when you get a group of friends/mates or extended family together. I remember the case of the 15 or so people living in the same housing corp house and garage and getting over $2k in benefit payments a week.

Unfortunately making these sort of people work employed does not work. Whose going to employ someone going for a job interview wearing a bandanna or the like?? May all that will happen is that they have a life of continual training just to remain on the benefit.

Conspiracy theory here but could the Labour Govt be encouraging people to continue on the benefit and keep having kids because they know they will vote for them in the future???? Long term planning???

I love conspiracy theories and that sounds like a viable one.

[MSTRS]

Conspiracy theory here but could the Labour Govt be encouraging people to continue on the benefit and keep having kids because they know they will vote for them in the future???? Long term planning???

You want the short answer? Or the long one? Or the obvious one?
hint - they are all the same answer

[RiderInBlack]

Tell ya what if Nat wanted my vote then if anyone on ACC or Sickness Benefit was caught at criminal activity that required a degree of fitness, then they should loose ACC or Sickness Benefit and have ta work for the unemployment benefit or get a job. Had a guy growing Pot in the ranges behind my Dad's farm (Not easy country ta get to), who was on a Sickness Benefit. Can't tell me that he was not fit enought ta work.

I admire those that find time ta work, raise their kids and be there when their kids when they need them. That's one hell of an acheivement and ya should take a bow. It's hard in a World where ya need two incomes to raise a family (that was not the case once). But I do find that there are a lot of people that pass judgement on others without realising that they are only lucky that their lives have not ended up down that track themselves.

[DMNTD]

But I do find that there are a lot of people that pass judgement on others without realising that they are only lucky that their lives have not ended up down that track themselves.

Dougy...I do see your angle mate however as a X sole parent and invalid beneficiary I can assure you that without a shadow of a doubt that luck has sweet f'a to do with anything.
It is called choice...

However....parents with "challenged" kids should be given a brake yet still be given training IMO.

[avgas]

She worked while on the DPB (just cleaning etc for a pittance) and while that might be illegal she had to do that in order to pay the bills, the DPB didn't cover it all. Nothing came from the hubby and how he got away with it I don't know. My well-heeled brother helped her heaps, so did my olds and I fixed her (small) car when required.
If she buys a new car, tell her to spend OVER $15,000.
My sister didn't, she was responsible and bought a newish, cheap, reliable little mazda for $3,000.
Walked into WINZ with the loan details and they told her becuase she had spent less than $15,000 on a car that wouldn't cover all of the repayments.......becuase she spent less than $10,000 that wouldn't cover ANY of the repayments.
Fucking Joke!!!!
Becuase the car was in the economical bracket (1.3L) they would not cover a fuel allowance.
FFS!!!
If she had bought a brand new EVO they would have covered the whole lot.

Like i've said before, its not a case of the system being the ultimate evil, but as someone who has experienced the lowest incomes in NZ due to trying to my family trying to make something of ourselves I'm at the point where i wish the whole thing was gone. Not to dissadvantage those that do need it - to filter off those that do not.

Lets say there was a press release saying all benefits are to be cancelled, however 400,000 living allowances positions are now on offer. Please apply via an interveiw and have monthly meetings at the WINZ office.
It would filter the assholes that just recieve a letter in the mail saying they are getting free money.....without even lifting a finger

[Forest]

I can't remember who it was that suggested it here, but I support mandatory drug tests for all people receiving state benefits.

If you want my tax dollars, you should be able to prove that you deserve them.

[avgas]

Can't tell me that he was not fit enought ta work.
He was working, illegally (for more reasons that one).
However i am very curious to see the number of solo parents/beneficiaries/ACC clients.... who make coin via trademe in NZ?????

I have nothing wrong with these people - except the fact that i pay their bills.
My father was a solo parent, who could not claim - he was living on a kiwifruit orchard.....a bussiness......with negative figures in the books for many years.

Who is more deserving, someone who finds it hard to work and look after the kids.......or someone flicking goods in cash convertors so they can buy the groceries (due to no benefit)?

My answer to this question is neither - but if you remove the benefit, they would be on a even playing field.

Darwin and all that.

[scracha]

Whose going to employ someone going for a job interview wearing a bandanna or the like??
They can cut trees, pick fruit, dig holes, remove graffiti, clean up dog shit, hold lollypops at roadworks etc. I'm sure for persistent work dodgers the armed forces would find good use for them.

Speaking as a kid from a single parent household where nobody was working...I'm all for it. I totally agree with DMNTD....kids need to see parent working.

Why the hell should any mentally sound and able bodied person under 25 be able to claim dole? It's not like they've paid into the system.

[peasea]

If she buys a new car, tell her to spend OVER $15,000.
My sister didn't, she was responsible and bought a newish, cheap, reliable little mazda for $3,000.
Walked into WINZ with the loan details and they told her becuase she had spent less than $15,000 on a car that wouldn't cover all of the repayments.......becuase she spent less than $10,000 that wouldn't cover ANY of the repayments.
Fucking Joke!!!!
Becuase the car was in the economical bracket (1.3L) they would not cover a fuel allowance.
FFS!!!
If she had bought a brand new EVO they would have covered the whole lot.

Like i've said before, its not a case of the system being the ultimate evil, but as someone who has experienced the lowest incomes in NZ due to trying to my family trying to make something of ourselves I'm at the point where i wish the whole thing was gone. Not to dissadvantage those that do need it - to filter off those that do not.

Lets say there was a press release saying all benefits are to be cancelled, however 400,000 living allowances positions are now on offer. Please apply via an interveiw and have monthly meetings at the WINZ office.
It would filter the assholes that just recieve a letter in the mail saying they are getting free money.....without even lifting a finger

Ya f*&n what?
That's the kind of b/s that my sister came up against.
She had to drop her kids at a North Shore school in a god damned Vauxhall Victor 101 (after upgrading from a Morrie Minor) then go off to (secret/illegal) work to fund the privilege with the youngest in tow.

That, however, is the tip of the iceberg. In later years, when her eldest (who had left school to work during the school holidays, looking to go full time in the next year) was a passenger in a horrific car accident she didn't qualify for ACC coz she wasn't full-time. The daughter was released from hospital and into the care of my sister who had to give up work to care for her. WTF????

Sometimes a vision of a gun springs into the grey matter.

[MisterD]

I'm sure for persistent work dodgers the armed forces would find good use for them.

Target practice springs to mind.

[Dave Lobster]

unfortunately they do
and the current system, both in nz and oz, encourages them to turn that one mistake into a lifelong career financed from the public purse

reform is necessary - compassionate reform that breaks the cycle without penalizing the minority special needs cases

NO! Sterilisation of the sort of people that have accidents they can't afford is necessary!!

[SPman]

Well, this seems to be a common response
That policy is one of the reasons I WILL be voting Nats., as if it's all new.
They are already doing all this stuff.
"The days of high unemployment where people signed on and sat at home forever without hearing from WINZ has been over for some time. Forcing people on to courses, cutting people off who refuse to go to interviews - all those things are routine now. The only new thing Key offers is to make the unemployed re-apply after one year, which is another bureaucratic procedure that one would have thought National would want to reduce."
I don't know about at the moment, but the average time a person was on the DPB used to be about 18 months - most people I know, apart from my druggy sister, got off as soon as possible. Yet, the old fear, the self righteous indignation, about millions of bludgers breeding for profit and using MY money to do it, always seems to strike a reactionary chord with people who think with their arse! Or hind brain...or something, because they sure as hell don't normally use what passes for a brain! It's knee jerk, fuck them, I'm alright so they should be too, lynching time, whenever the subject comes up.
Of course we all know the exceptions, but, believe it or not, they are actually in the minority, yet they seem to be what a lot of people take as normal.
Interesting seeing the knee jerkers on here...........

[James Deuce]

Stuff about finding it hard to make ends meet for yourself. - Please don't take the following rant as directed at you mate. It's just "my way" OK?

We're talking about the DPB. You know, parents who suddenly find themselves in sole charge and needing time to get some sort of life in order. Divorce, death, vegetative state, sudden disappearance, prison terms, stuff that one half of the parenting equation has no control over when it happens to the other half.

You can plan all you want. Things turn to shit, but you lot would rather chuck good people into the gutter to let "Darwin" sort it out.

That is an unspeakably horrible attitude. Anyone sitting here reading this and having their indignant ire raised by what I've just said should reflect on the fact that I wouldn't wish the last 14 years of my life on even you. Ever held a twitching dying 3 month old foetus and wondered what could have been? Ever held an 8 month old baby struggling to breathe and had him stop? Ever wondered why the Geneticist was laughing at you as she delivered the news about Trisomy 21? Ever watched 75% of the coffee group you find yourself going to to share some of the shit around lose their partners (invariably pathetic men) because they can't "cope"? Ever seen the bashing society gives those people (invariably women) left holding the can because they have a kid who will be a "drain" on society their whole life and they're on the DPB too? Ever watched those people who have the capacity to do so go back to their job as a CEO, hire a live in nanny and never even spend any time whatsoever with their broken kid?

I'd guess not. Life has been really, really good to most of you, and just like Marie Antoinette, it is beyond your comprehension when "they" don't cope. There's more of them, of us, out there than you think. Your scorn and derision, and righteous indignation at them being such abject visible failures is not only damaging it speaks volumes about your lack of compassion, of empathy, of understanding, and explains why we still struggle so much with the negative aspects of our society. You all talk about helping people out, but when it's really needed you just melt away because it doesn't suit the self-picture of the heroic effort you think you are meant to give. "They used to have a good job and live well, what's wrong with them? They should get their shit together!"

I have about the right number of fingers to add up the number of people who've helped me keep the tattered remains of my personality together. A couple of them reside here. A couple of them were a complete surprise. I can't describe what some of these people have done for me. Suffice to say none of them were from the Government, none of them were the people you would think felt they needed to step up. But I'm still married, still enjoying my kids, still riding my bike to and from work and I've not strangled a single short-sighted, small-minded, arse-brained Government flunky yet.

I'm doing the best I can. If that doesn't meet your expectations, well, in all seriousness, it doesn't matter, does it?. If I suck a kumara on the way home in that really heavy rain/hail out there, I'll just be another annoying Internet denizen with high expectations of his fellow humans NOT wasting characters on a computer screen anymore.

I don't expect anything from you, but how many cries for help have you missed? How many times have you let your personal "life's good, don't waste it" filter interpret a vision of someone's life as pathetic and useless and below your help (including tax) because it's a waste of time helping out those darkies/beneficiaries/DPB bludgers/mental patients?

We're supposed to be "evolving", developing a society with room for different expressions of a meaningful life and supporting people to do that. For 99% of people, "Good one mate" is good enough. Some people need a LOT more.

[avgas]

Sometimes a vision of a gun springs into the grey matter.
Make sure you bring enough bullets so we all can vote.
We'll call it a reforendom. Except this time we will actually get heard.

[Big Dave]

No right thinking individual can bemoan a social security safety net, and the hope it is deployed with due compassion.

What causes rancor in your hard working taxpayer is if it's mailed out as a reward for simple can't be arsedness.

[avgas]

James Deuce.
You obviously did not see/read or follow any of my comments - i suggest you do so. As it clearly states it more descript terms.
- Wipe benefit slate clean
- Get people to apply and maintain relationship with Govt
- Remove the drains from the system

Or are you quite happy to see genuine mums/dads struggle for meals while the rich list live on a benefit in their $$$,$$$ houses?

You will be amazed by the survival mettle of people when hardness are put in front of them. But i am not even asking that level of dedication.

[James Deuce]

James Deuce.
You obviously did not see/read or follow any of my comments - i suggest you do so. As it clearly states it more descript terms.
- Wipe benefit slate clean
- Get people to apply and maintain relationship with Govt
- Remove the drains from the system

Or are you quite happy to see genuine mums/dads struggle for meals while the rich list live on a benefit in their $$$,$$$ houses?

You will be amazed by the survival mettle of people when hardness are put in front of them. But i am not even asking that level of dedication.

You didn't read mine, so we're even.

[BIHB@0610]

I'm sure for persistent work dodgers the armed forces would find good use for them.



Target practice springs to mind.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Mom]

Not long after my first marraige went splat I was working 25 hours a week, had a bit of income from rental property, I was making my way, no more, no less. I had 3 children ages 14, 12 and 9 to support. The job I was doing became redundant due to the sale of the business. I got 6 weeks notice.

Because I was sole supporter of my kids and I live in a small town that can limit employment opportunities I decided to investigate some state support on the off chance I did not find another job in time.

Conversation went a bit like this...

Amounts may be wrong due to recall, but that wont matter.

WINZ: Your base benefit will be $145 per week
ME: Great my rent is $240 per week
WINZ: you are eligible for accomodation suppliment of $100 per week
ME: Excellent, I now have $5 for food, power, telephone etc
WINZ: You can get Family support for each of the children
ME: Sadly I am not eligible for family support due to winding up of business my anticipated income precludes any family support
WINZ: You can earn $80 perweek without affecting your entitlement - have you any other income?
ME: Yes, but it is a bit over $80 per week
WINZ: you wont get accomodation supplement then
ME: hmmmmmm, so I am back at $145 per week then?
WINZ: yes, it appears that way
ME: Fuck the benefit then, I will go pack shelves at the supermarket!

I did not have to go pack shelves, though I would have happily.

Where did I go wrong...LOL

[Speedracer]

What we really need is guaranteed employment.

Show up at the job centre at 8am. Get allocated a job that meets your ability. Go home at 5pm with money you earned.

Got a bad back ? No worries. Got a don't-bend-down job for you.

Got kids ? No worries, put them in the creche, like other working mums do. Maybe if you are good, you can get a job there.

Didn't Hitler use this to rebuild Germany?
Didn't Russia try this on with Communism?

Some of the issue is $ and c. How much would you pay someone to sleep for an hour, lean on a shovel for a 2 hour chin wag, grudgingly do an hour of work, have an afternoon nap, do a few laps in the company truck and then woohoo it's knock off time.:niceone:

Or more realistically, what about handicapped people? or people who need constant supervision?

The other problem is temping doesn't give you a salary. If you get sick you're screwed. If you need a holiday, forget it. On the dole you've got all the time in the world, just no money. Finally there is the issue of training. Every job requires some training - if a new guy comes on the job every day, either the job is so simple it doesn't require training (which is getting rare these days) or you'll spend half their time training them.

What about work for the dole? wasn't that the same idea?


In principle I agree, but I'm not sure it will work in reality, given that only the people who have no skills and no motivation will use it, finding jobs to give to the workers will prove very hard. The only way you will give everyone a job is if there are excess jobs available. Lets face it, you'll get a bigger bang for your buck if you pay someone who's motivated for $20 an hour than someone who will sit on their shovel all day because they're not used to work coming off the dole for minimum wage... The only way you will get excess jobs is if they are paid peanuts or the govt 'makes up' jobs i.e. subsidises the cost or creates rubbish jobs. I think there are subsidies available to employers taking on people off the dole for this reason. And WINZ people are always trying to find a job for people on the dole to move into.

In summary WINZ is that place with a long term view. And the jobs otherwise simply don't exist unless the govt creates them, at a huge cost, possibly more than the dole?

[Fatjim]

- Please don't take the following rant as directed at you mate. It's just "my way" OK?

We're talking about the DPB. You know, parents who suddenly find themselves in sole charge and needing time to get some sort of life in order. Divorce, death, vegetative state, sudden disappearance, prison terms, stuff that one half of the parenting equation has no control over when it happens to the other half.

You can plan all you want. Things turn to shit, but you lot would rather chuck good people into the gutter to let "Darwin" sort it out.

That is an unspeakably horrible attitude. Anyone sitting here reading this and having their indignant ire raised by what I've just said should reflect on the fact that I wouldn't wish the last 14 years of my life on even you. Ever held a twitching dying 3 month old foetus and wondered what could have been? Ever held an 8 month old baby struggling to breathe and had him stop? Ever wondered why the Geneticist was laughing at you as she delivered the news about Trisomy 21? Ever watched 75% of the coffee group you find yourself going to to share some of the shit around lose their partners (invariably pathetic men) because they can't "cope"? Ever seen the bashing society gives those people (invariably women) left holding the can because they have a kid who will be a "drain" on society their whole life and they're on the DPB too? Ever watched those people who have the capacity to do so go back to their job as a CEO, hire a live in nanny and never even spend any time whatsoever with their broken kid?

I'd guess not. Life has been really, really good to most of you, and just like Marie Antoinette, it is beyond your comprehension when "they" don't cope. There's more of them, of us, out there than you think. Your scorn and derision, and righteous indignation at them being such abject visible failures is not only damaging it speaks volumes about your lack of compassion, of empathy, of understanding, and explains why we still struggle so much with the negative aspects of our society. You all talk about helping people out, but when it's really needed you just melt away because it doesn't suit the self-picture of the heroic effort you think you are meant to give. "They used to have a good job and live well, what's wrong with them? They should get their shit together!"

I have about the right number of fingers to add up the number of people who've helped me keep the tattered remains of my personality together. A couple of them reside here. A couple of them were a complete surprise. I can't describe what some of these people have done for me. Suffice to say none of them were from the Government, none of them were the people you would think felt they needed to step up. But I'm still married, still enjoying my kids, still riding my bike to and from work and I've not strangled a single short-sighted, small-minded, arse-brained Government flunky yet.

I'm doing the best I can. If that doesn't meet your expectations, well, in all seriousness, it doesn't matter, does it?. If I suck a kumara on the way home in that really heavy rain/hail out there, I'll just be another annoying Internet denizen with high expectations of his fellow humans NOT wasting characters on a computer screen anymore.

I don't expect anything from you, but how many cries for help have you missed? How many times have you let your personal "life's good, don't waste it" filter interpret a vision of someone's life as pathetic and useless and below your help (including tax) because it's a waste of time helping out those darkies/beneficiaries/DPB bludgers/mental patients?

We're supposed to be "evolving", developing a society with room for different expressions of a meaningful life and supporting people to do that. For 99% of people, "Good one mate" is good enough. Some people need a LOT more.

Somehow, I doubt, that all 320 odd thousand people on the the benefit (apart from the dole) have had it as bad as you. And just think how much better it could have been for you in terms of govt support, if there wasn't so many people willing to bludge! (I'm not saying they all are, but there are many).

I spent some time unemployed once. I had to wait 10 weeks to get anything from them. I had 3 kids and a wife, and a $800 a week mortgage. Then I had to pay a whole lot of it back because I actually got a job! When you actually pay taxes, and lots of them, you get pissed at people who are STEALING your money. And then when you need the system yourself, it says "FUCK OFF! We're too busy paying solo mums who are pumping out children to help you".

So yes, you've had some hard times. BUT ITS NOT THE POINT! The point is that there are lots of people out there ripping the system off at working peoples expense and the system has got out of hand!

[RiderInBlack]

Urban Myths and Spin Doctoring.

There are a lot posting on here that think that there is a lot of Women getting pregnant on purpose so that they can live on the DPB. To those I ask:
How many Solo parents have you meet that have purposely chosen to have kids so they can get the DPB?

I have not meet one. Most of the ones I have meet would rather had work than had kids, but once the kids have come in to the picture, have put the kids before themselves. Child Rearing is not an easy "job". It is the most important job you will ever have in ya life. It is the job that nobody is going ta get right, especially Child Psychologist.

I would argue that those that want ta believe the "Spin Doctoring" that Women are purposely chosing ta get pregnant so they can live on the DPB, are doing so to justify they poor attiute to those that are on the DPB. I would also suggest that they have no idea how little DPB actual covers the day to day cost of supporting a child.

[James Deuce]

Somehow, I doubt, that all 320 odd thousand people on the the benefit (apart from the dole) have had it as bad as you. And just think how much better it could have been for you in terms of govt support, if there wasn't so many people willing to bludge! (I'm not saying they all are, but there are many).


Two of my kids are included in those stats. The issue is not clear cut and dried.

A big chunk of the people in those stats have had it much worse.
I've been out of work for months on end and sold stuff to keep going rather than go on a benefit. For some people it gets to the no other choice point fairly rapidly.

[davereid]

No right thinking individual can bemoan a social security safety net, and the hope it is deployed with due compassion.

What causes rancor in your hard working taxpayer is if it's mailed out as a reward for simple can't be arsedness.

Exactly true.

The Nats plan does not cut any benefits.

It doesn't reduce the value of the safety net.

What it is starting to do, and IMHO should increasingly do, is offer that support by way of guaranteed employment, rather than simple handout.

The genuine, who want a job, will be pleased to take the opportunity to earn their own money.

The policy perhaps should be "A job for everyone who wants one" and we should consider the issue of those incapable of work quite differently from those unmotivated to work.

[MSTRS]

Urban Myths and Spin Doctoring.

There are a lot posting on here that think that there is a lot of Women getting pregnant on purpose so that they can live on the DPB. To those I ask:
How many Solo parents have you meet that have purposely chosen to have kids so they can get the DPB?

I have not meet one. Most of the ones I have meet would rather had work than had kids, but once the kids have come in to the picture, have put the kids before themselves. Child Rearing is not an easy "job". It is the most important job you will ever have in ya life. It is the job that nobody is going ta get right, especially Child Psychologist.

I would argue that those that want ta believe the "Spin Doctoring" that Women are purposely chosing ta get pregnant so they can live on the DPB, are doing so to justify they poor attiute to those that are on the DPB. I would also suggest that they have no idea how little DPB actual covers the day to day cost of supporting a child.

I have personally (over)heard a bloke, who was on some sort of benefit, advising his 15yo daughter to get pregnant so she could go on the DPB (just like her older sister) and stay living at home (just like her older sister) in order to boost the family income. What really appalled me was that he explained to her that cos she was a 'dumb Maori' she would never get a job and as long as she kept having kids, she'd be set for life.
So don't tell me that there are no bludgers out there milking the system.
I don't have a problem with assistance for those that find themselves in 'a situation'...that's what it is there for...but I do have a problem with those that target that assistance, or who become dependent on it longterm.

[RiderInBlack]

So don't tell me that there are no bludgers out there milking the system.
I don't have a problem with assistance for those that find themselves in 'a situation'...that's what it is there for...but I do have a problem with those that target that assistance, or who become dependent on it longterm.I'm not, BUT so many are making out that many of those on DPB have done so on purpose and there by justifying their attitude toward DPB.
I would be fully behind any policy that increased the amount a person could earn on the DPB with better scaling as their income increased to help encourage seeking work and to get off DPB.
As for Nat's policy, I would feel better if the age of the youngest child was 13yrs plus, not 6yrs, to better match the amount of independe ce one could expect the child to have. Don't forget there are a lot of home-schooled kids out there now too.

[alanzs]

Maybe the next government will do things which stimulate the economy to create jobs at all levels.

As Bill Clinton said "Its all about the economy"

[James Deuce]

Maybe the next government will do things which stimulate the economy to create jobs at all levels.

As Bill Clinton said "Its all about the economy"
Indeed. I don't see it happening. People are not spending money and the flexibility they had in equity if they were home owners has eroded significantly. Wages haven't kept up with inflation and we're in a recession. Recessions take time to stabilise and recover from. We have no local export businesses left that aren't primary produce, and primary produce exporters always get a hiding during a global recession.

I'm still not getting the study thing. Why would someone earning a small Government funded income be encouraged to take on a large debt? How would National balance the books on that one? It looks like increasing Government debt to me. During a recession. We've been down the path of compounding debt errors before. I lot of you guys won't remember interest rates in the 20s and what that means for mortgage holders and capital generated in NZ.

[Big Dave]

As Bill Clinton said "Its all about the economy"

Close, but no Cigar.

[James Deuce]

Damn thing won't light.

[Jantar]

How many Solo parents have you meet that have purposely chosen to have kids so they can get the DPB?
I know three. Two were friends of my daughter, and sadly the third was my daughter.

I can say though that my daughter has seen the light, and is now with the father of her two children. They each hold down full time jobs, and pay for a full time child sitter for the few hours per day that their shifts overlap.

Her two friends are still solo mums. and still pumping out children to increase their benefit.

[RiderInBlack]

It looks like increasing Government debt to me. During a recession.Don't worry Mate, Nat is going ta increase the debt anyway just so those how have been whining:baby: about Taxes can get a little small weeny bit back:stupid:
Live though The Muldoon "Think Big" years, which drove the Country in ta massif debt and helped Whangarei become the "Dole Capital" of NZ due ta the horrendous unemployment levels. A lot of Companies up here went under. It was why at 18 I got made redundant, pushing me into shitty jobs and unemployment for many years before I could get myself out of it.
At 45yrs I have no property, one hell of a Student Loan, but at least (if I last this time) now have a OK paying job (even if I have ta work dam hard doing it).

[RiderInBlack]

I know three. Two were friends of my daughter, and sadly the third was my daughter.....Her two friends are still solo mums. and still pumping out children to increase their benefit.Dam sad ta hear that Jantar.

[MisterD]

Close, but no Cigar.

(Insert Monica joke here)Or should that be insert cig.....:shutup:

[Dave Lobster]

What really appalled me was that he explained to her that cos she was a 'dumb Maori' she would never get a job and as long as she kept having kids, she'd be set for life.


Well.. he's right there.

[SixPackBack]

NO! Sterilisation of the sort of people that have accidents they can't afford is necessary!!


Well.. he's right there.


Proclaiming yourself a racist and nazi is unlikely to gain you any freinds.:mellow:

[Dave Lobster]

Funny you should say that. You're the only one red repping..

Ha ha.. racist.. that's funny.. you should see the ethnic background of my family..

[doc]

I lot of you guys won't remember interest rates in the 20s
Don't think many here would.
Bashing the beneficieries is a popular vote grabber.

Fact is for example if the average DPB is $450 wk , equates to $11.25 hr after tax means they have to give up being at home to get close to $16.00 hr. Take child care costs out of it, where is the sence in getting a job. The Nats think there are 33,000 in this situation. Where are there 33,000 casual jobs out there, when we are heading in to a recession.

:Pokey:

[SixPackBack]

Funny you should say that. You're the only one red repping..

Ha ha.. racist.. that's funny.. you should see the ethnic background of my family..

Well deserved Dave Lobster.

[Jantar]

...Take child care costs out of it, where is the sence in getting a job. ...
there is 20 hrs of free child care available under Nats policies. So 15 hrs of work or training is under that limit.

[doc]

there is 20 hrs of free child care available under Nats policies. So 15 hrs of work or training is under that limit.

So you are are a supporter of this policy ?

If they can get 33,000 of the benefit. Imagine the tax cuts. That could be the next Tui add. :shit:

[davereid]

Fact is for example if the average DPB is $450 wk , equates to $11.25 hr after tax means they have to give up being at home to get close to $16.00 hr. Take child care costs out of it, where is the sence in getting a job. The Nats think there are 33,000 in this situation. Where are there 33,000 casual jobs out there, when we are heading in to a recession.
:Pokey:

You have just hit the nail on the head.

What you have demonstrated is that a basic benefit like the DPB is worth much more than a low skill job.

That seems to explain why many New Zealanders are happy to stay on a benefit. Because, if they have no skills, so they are much better at home watching TV.

But the New Zealanders who choose to work are penalised as a result.

For a beneficiary to take home $11.25 in a benefit, a worker on $16 an hour had to work for 3.5 hours to pay the tax to pay them.

Who is really the victim here ?

Is it too much to ask that we all work for our pay?

[Qkkid]

Life is not meant to be simple or easy .Having kids is a choice. People should consider them selves lucky to have help for 6 years. If you are worried about havin a kid dont take the chance of having sex. Its simple really. To many people bleed the system and i cant be fucked paying for it . I say get off your arse and work. If you dont like it i dont care some countries have no welfare system at all. Work to eat or starve, you then would soon learn to work, learn to work hard then you might get somewhere.:yes: If we did not have so many hand outs our taxes would be alot less and i am all for that. Nothing should be free in life.

[southernmike]

"If elected, National would require those on the DPB to undertake part-time work once their youngest child is aged six or over. It will set a 15 hour a week minimum work requirement."
[FONT=Comic Sans MS]Have they no thought of what pressure that will put on genuie Solo Parents? Kid care as far as I am connerned is a full time job. It's an 24hr 7day-a-week on-call job. Reward those that do find work but back off those that find being a Solo Parent hard enough.

That's the pressure TWO WORKING parent families have to deal with now. Been there. The result: It creates SOLO parents.

[doc]

You have just hit the nail on the head.

What you have demonstrated is that a basic benefit like the DPB is worth much more than a low skill job.

That seems to explain why many New Zealanders are happy to stay on a benefit. Because, if they have no skills, so they are much better at home watching TV.

But the New Zealanders who choose to work are penalised as a result.

For a beneficiary to take home $11.25 in a benefit, a worker on $16 an hour had to work for 3.5 hours to pay the tax to pay them.

Who is really the victim here ?

Is it too much to ask that we all work for our pay?

My take on the situation is that those on a benefit are basically on survival mode they aren't rolling in it, if they get a real job there is very little advantage. I'm on well above the average wage and feel if I could get the DPB with my assets I'd kick back and do the same.

DPB wise don't attack the reciever, why not attack the cause of the problem . The fathers who avoid their responsibility.

Someone has to carry the can in our society. The taxpayer is the only option at present. :argue:

[Qkkid]

My take on the situation is that those on a benefit are basically on survival mode they aren't rolling in it, if they get a real job there is very little advantage. I'm on well above the average wage and feel if I could get the DPB with my assets I'd kick back and do the same.

DPB wise don't attack the reciever, why not attack the cause of the problem . The fathers who avoid their responsibility.

Someone has to carry the can in our society. The taxpayer is the only option at present. :argue:

Simple you get preggy as a women dob the guy in dont shelter him. If you cant come up with a dad then no benefit. You cant tell me Women dont know what night they got pregnant on they are pretty accurate these days. We pussy foot around to much.
Take the benefit away you will work i gaurantee it. So then there will be no disadvantage. Its the family support/society have broken down these days. Why should i pay for someone elses kid.
There is no easy answer but hand outs are not the answer.

[Jantar]

....DPB wise don't attack the reciever, why not attack the cause of the problem . The fathers who avoid their responsibility. ...

No, Don't blame the fathers. Many fathers are paying considerably more than the mothers are receiving. In my case, back in 1996, after splitting from my ex, I had one child, she had two, and I was paying $1200 per month. She was receiving just over half of that amount on DPB, and she didn't contribute anything to the child I was supporting.

[doc]

No, Don't blame the fathers. Many fathers are paying considerably more than the mothers are receiving. In my case, back in 1996, after splitting from my ex, I had one child, she had two, and I was paying $1200 per month. She was receiving just over half of that amount on DPB, and she didn't contribute anything to the child I was supporting.

Well explain why you didn't just give her 1200 a month and avoid the Taxpayer being involved.
Not trying to wind you up , but if you gave her the money legitit. why do we have to pay as well

[Jantar]

Well explain why you didn't just give her 1200 a month and avoid the Taxpayer being involved.
Not trying to wind you up , but if you gave her the money legitit. why do we have to pay as well
I offered a private arrangement, but she preffered the DPB. Maybe that indicates part of the reason we split.

[Robert Taylor]

I would likle to see an incoming Government really target ACC fraud, for example ''Ive got a bad back and cannot work'' Hard one to prove and just how many over the years have got away with it?

[Movistar]

The whole DPB/Child support system is pathetic.
I could ramble on for hours my views on these "support" systems - none of which are favourable to the way they are calculated, or given out!

I was a young father at age 17 (just) and it was a tough time. From the birth of my daughter through till the time she came to live with my wife and I last August.
Yes there were options (abortion) that could have been taken, but I/we were young and naive and thought 'we can work through this.'

I am all for people receiving a benefit, that are capable, earning that benefit, and not just people on the DPB but also Unemployment Beneficiaries.

After the spell of recent weather, with people that work full time needing assistance to get there properties/businesses back up to pre-storm condition, this would be an excellent opportunity for insurance companies, government and private people to seek assistance from those that fill in their days by less proactive activities.

You are never going to come to an agreement that suits everyone, but steps need to be put in place to prove that if you want to live in New Zealand, or move to our fair shores, that you have to be prepared to earn your keep, not just expect a handout.

[Movistar]

I would likle to see an incoming Government really target ACC fraud, for example ''Ive got a bad back and cannot work'' Hard one to prove and just how many over the years have got away with it?

I second that RT, how many people do you know of that you are convinced are ripping the ACC system for "bad backs" alone...

[Deviant]

I was going to vote for the Nats last time, but they ripped each other apart in the lead up then put up a website that told me I'd have $56 per week more in my pocket under Labour- The taxcuts.co.nz site.

Not the type of intelligence or behaviour I want running my country...

We need a change, but it needs to be the right one.

[The Tazman]

My take on the situation is that those on a benefit are basically on survival mode they aren't rolling in it,

That's cause they spend it all on fags, booze Sky TV big screen TV's and everything but getting themselves on their feet. I can't afford sky, I have a 15 year old TV and struggle to have a ride out on my bike which I spent years saving to buy. I only have a car because I haven't had more than 4 days off in a row for 3 f**king years and got enough holiday pay when I left my last job to buy a 14year old car.

I'm sick of these f**ks getting everything for nothing and I'm helping to pay for these things for other people that I can't afford for myself.

As for kids you should have to have a license to have them. You have to for a car or bike!!!! Yet something as important as a life, no lets not worry about that, we'll just have all the low life f**ks just pop them out to get more money where as all the hard working people plan and wonder how the hell they can afford it.

I fully agree with someone (sorry can't remember who) that said they should get vouchers for food and cloths for the kids. It's about time people were made responsible for their own actions instead of always blaming someone else or relying on someone else to pay or do everything for them.

Makes my blood boil.

I hope National start to stop all this PC crap and start getting back to reality.

They'll be getting my vote on this matter

[Rookie Rider]

I understand that people will be frightened at such changes - people get set in their ways. HOWEVER there are MANY families in New Zealand that have 2 parents that are working just to keep their heads above water, It is surely not the ideal situation for anyone and we ALL would like to be available to our kids 24/7 but that is not even a reality for 2 parent families!!!!!! Get a life and get real join the rest of us and help our country grow - taking without giving back tires everyone. Oh and i believe that if you are on the DPB and have another child - then you should not get any more money for doing so - that is your responsibility!!!!!
There is a very genuine need for some to use the DPB - keep it genuine.

[SixPackBack]

I would likle to see an incoming Government really target ACC fraud, for example ''Ive got a bad back and cannot work'' Hard one to prove and just how many over the years have got away with it?

I think you will find the government is not that naive, in order to qualify medical testing must take place-Doctor, Muskoskelatal specialists, X-ray, MRI. etc...in virtually all cases physical evidence is available

'Bad backs' are usually characterised by 'pinched/trapped nerves' this causes inflammation and as a result medication and rest must be undertaken, once the patient has rested for a while the inflammation subsides. This allows resumption of normal activities as the nerve is freed up a little, however the underlying cause is still present and soon returns. This why we see folk with bad backs apparently seem normal some of the time.

I can attest to the depths of pain trapped nerves cause and the bizzare manner in which the pain is present; additionally [in my case] I applaud ACC in getting my surgery promptly, supporting and rehabilitating me; their performance was flawless.

[Zuki Bandit]

So what about the parents with special needs kids then?
My 5 year old son is special needs, I work full time, my wife works until lunch time when she goes to pick him up from school. Maybe it's harder for solo's to do? Im not so sure.

[Big Dave]

applaud ACC in getting my surgery promptly, supporting and rehabilitating me; their performance was flawless.

I injured my spine in a motorcycle accident and they offered me $112 per week and a heap of paperwork. It's a Joke if you are self employed.

[MSTRS]

DPB wise don't attack the reciever, why not attack the cause of the problem . The fathers who avoid their responsibility.


Really? You remember that (slightly) drunk one night stand you had last year...she had a kid from that root of yours and you still can't remember her name and never did get her phone number. Oh, and she moved so you don't know where she lives. Guess what, sunshine...you were a sperm donor for her lifestyle. (story made up, for purposes of arguing a point only)
Harsh? Yes, perhaps...but this sort of thing happens more often than you'd think. Along with the 1000's of fathers who would rather not be absent, but aren't wanted by the mother :angry2:

[marty]

Ifi can do 30+ hours a week of work plus a 'full time' course why cant a mother get of there bums and do somthing? I am not saying full time-hell 3 days a week of 5 hours a day would do? I know of two single mothers that have full time jobs as well as 3 kids each. And the kids are absolutly fantastic, they live in a nice but not swankey house etc and it is BECAUSE of the mothers hard work they got where they are and the kids as like they are. The apple dosnt fall far from the tree, if the tree is a lazy arssed dole bludger then the apple will be to (90% of the time).


I know there are special scercemstances where this dose not apply but there cant be that many.


I'm saving this one for Hitcher.....

[jrandom]

I injured my spine in a motorcycle accident and they offered me $112 per week and a heap of paperwork. It's a Joke if you are self employed.

The 'income protection' side of ACC appears to be a bit less than perfect, but the cover for medical treatment for injuries is second to none in the world.

[Big Dave]

The 'income protection' side of ACC appears to be a bit less than perfect, but the cover for medical treatment for injuries is second to none in the world.

Sure it is.

[jrandom]

Sure it is.

I like it when you agree with me.

[alanzs]

I like it when you agree with me.

Don't get any ideas, but I agree with you as well. :hug:

[Oscar]

The 'income protection' side of ACC appears to be a bit less than perfect, but the cover for medical treatment for injuries is second to none in the world.

Also, don't forget the "no blame" nature of the Act.
This saves us squillions on legal fees and insurance premiums...

[SPman]

I hope National start to stop all this PC crap and start getting back to reality.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::killingme

[alanzs]

:rofl::rofl::rofl::killingme

There is no reality. Everything is just as it should be, always will be. Reality? What a concept! :eek:

[Sollyboy]

The kiwi bludger system at work.

Why should I work to pay 38% tax so solo mums can stay at home with their kids ?

Maybe, I should be able to work 38% less, and spend some time with mine.

This is a very timid step, not a great raving bold one.

I can't understand why ANY benefit would be paid without effort from the recipient.

This all so true

[placidfemme]

Hmmm. I'm not a national fan, but this is something I do agree with.

As most have already said, this isnt about the solo parents with special needs kids.

Its about those people who are simply taking advantage. Its about those people who CAN work, but dont because... well why should they? No-ones going to make them and they get a cheque for sitting on thier asses.

I work my ass off and always have, and it bites knowing that my taxes from my hard work are going to some tosser who cant be screwed getting a job.

Yeah the economy is crashing. Yeah part time "kid friendly" jobs arnt easy to find. But you have to start somewhere, and when your not going to make an effort off your own bat, then good on National for being the pushing hand getting people out there.

[jrandom]

I work my ass off...

Ah, so that's where it went.

[placidfemme]

Ah, so that's where it went.

lol yeah I feel cheated!

[BIHB@0610]

Sure it is.


I like it when you agree with me.


Don't get any ideas, but I agree with you as well. :hug:

Oooh ..... a manly threesome! :grouphug:

That's kinda hot ...... :blink:

[doc]

Really? You remember that (slightly) drunk one night stand you had last year...she had a kid from that root of yours and you still can't remember her name and never did get her phone number. Oh, and she moved so you don't know where she lives. Guess what, sunshine...you were a sperm donor for her lifestyle. (story made up, for purposes of arguing a point only)
Harsh? Yes, perhaps...but this sort of thing happens more often than you'd think. Along with the 1000's of fathers who would rather not be absent, but aren't wanted by the mother :angry2:


Sorry don't understand whether you support or disagree with my comment. I can't support the idea that because of one night stands, absolves said stud from any responsibility of the outcome. He could be a multiple stud. Why should the taxpayer pickup the tab.

My stand on the whole idea its not her or him in this , it's the fact that the progeny is what DPB is about. Right or wrong. :doctor:

[BIHB@0610]

the progeny is what DPB is about. Right or wrong. :doctor:

Agree 1000% - which is why I support helping parents on the DPB to get a life, a passion, a vocation, to become contributing members of the community that has helped them through a tough time in their life. And why I support prompting and supporting those parents into either work or study - for a manageable portion of their time, while their children are at school. No-one suffers, everyone gains - especially the progeny, who acquire a work ethic and an expectation that everyone has and fulfils a vital role in society :done:

[Patrick]

Without reading the whole thread, that is the reason why I am voting Nat.

Kids are at school, have been for a year. Time to get a job. Like most.

Now, if someone was to do away with the Invalids / Sickness Benefits entirely for the gangs and druggies out there....

[Max Preload]

Why the need to confiscate peoples time like that?

Emotive choice of word there. Allow me to use it too. Why should decent working folk have their money confiscated to pay for the often simply irresponsible choices made by others?


No, it wont. Because if we ever have children, we'll make damn sure we can afford them first.

You won't go far with THAT attitude here in Aotearoa! :oi-grr:


I'm still not getting the study thing. Why would someone earning a small Government funded income be encouraged to take on a large debt?

How about self-improvement, life and employment prospects, self-respect & pride, pulling your own weight and contributing to society...


Simple you get preggy as a women dob the guy in dont shelter him. If you cant come up with a dad then no benefit.

Under current legislation some slapper they've never even rooted can name a man as the father and there ain't a god-damed thing that man can do about it. How fucked up is that? My point being, that's only going to encourage that behaviour if not accompanied by a law change giving accused fathers basic rights of appeal.


The 'income protection' side of ACC appears to be a bit less than perfect, but the cover for medical treatment for injuries is second to none in the world.

The income side is a joke - as a self-employed person I've had first hand experience of that. Initial emergency care, perhaps, but ongoing physical rehabilitation is also a bad joke.


Also, don't forget the "no blame" nature of the Act.
This saves us squillions on legal fees and insurance premiums...

No blame only in marketing. Every person's premium is apportioned to 'blame'. Higher premiums due to higher income, different vehicle license costs, multiple vehicles...

[Big Dave]

Oooh ..... a manly threesome! :grouphug:

That's kinda hot ...... :blink:

sarcasm
noun
derision, mockery, ridicule, scorn, sneering, scoffing; irony; cynicism. See note at wit .

[ambler]

Emotive choice of word there. Allow me to use it too. Why should decent working folk have their money confiscated to pay for the often simply irresponsible choices made by others?hm... the line you quote was taken quite out of context with both the post it was in, and my previous posts in the thread.
My main point was that simply dictating a time to spend working misses the point that the goal is productivity, not just filling time. I also think requiring a certain amount of productivity rather than a certain amount of time would cause less resentment towards the plan.

[McDuck]

I'm saving this one for Hitcher.....

Good thing this thread aint on spelling ay...

[MSTRS]

Sorry don't understand whether you support or disagree with my comment. I can't support the idea that because of one night stands, absolves said stud from any responsibility of the outcome. He could be a multiple stud. Why should the taxpayer pickup the tab.

My stand on the whole idea its not her or him in this , it's the fact that the progeny is what DPB is about. Right or wrong. :doctor:

I thought what I said was pretty clear...I take issue with your statement that the problem lies with the father(s). In some instances, you will be right. However, I was citing the situation where the father is innocent of any bad intent other than getting his end away and has/can have no idea of the outcome.
I agree with your idea that the progeny are what it is about. Which is precisely why the system is open to such abuse. I applaud National for at least proposing to try and put the brakes on. But it will not work in the case of 'professional' breeders. They will simply pace their production at 5 year intervals.

[R1madness]

This is a true story.

A good mate got a chick pregnant. Had been going out with her about a year. She already had 2 kids (to 2 different guys). He moved in with her and tried to make a go of it but after a year he found out she was rooting around so moved out. She got pregnant to another guy. Thats 4 kids to 4 different fathers. All paying 19% of their pre tax income directly to her. The guys are all professional people with good jobs and pay their $$$$ without fail.
She is a lazy slut that sits around waiting for the next victim while earning good money.
:argh:

[Trudes]

Not to mention the cases of people that are still in a relationship but "have split up and live in different houses":msn-wink: and collect the DPB.

[Oscar]

No blame only in marketing. Every person's premium is apportioned to 'blame'. Higher premiums due to higher income, different vehicle license costs, multiple vehicles...

Would you prefer the US system?
The system may be flawed, but I have yet to see a better one.

[Big Dave]

Would you prefer the US system?
The system may be flawed, but I have yet to see a better one.

You do know the public health system here is so overloaded and underfunded that they have a triage system operating - if you are not in 'enough' pain you get pushed right off the elective list at Middlemore?

Life threatening or serious and it's first world indeed.
Not so and it's becoming a bit 3rd.

[Oscar]

You do know the public health system here is so overloaded and underfunded that they have a triage system operating - if you are not in 'enough' pain you get pushed right off the elective list at Middlemore?

Life threatening or serious and it's first world indeed.
Not so and it's becoming a bit 3rd.

I was referring to the ACC "no blame" system, and the fact that we don't spend as much time suing each other for personal injury as other Western Democracies.

The public health system is a disgrace.

Speaking of disgraces - Stretch on the cover?
The new format is good, though...

[Patrick]

Under current legislation some slapper they've never even rooted can name a man as the father and there ain't a god-damed thing that man can do about it. ...

Huh????? Deoxy (mumble, mumble, something a rather...) Nucleic Acid... DNA...


I thought what I said was pretty clear...I take issue with your statement that the problem lies with the father(s). In some instances, you will be right. However, I was citing the situation where the father is innocent of any bad intent other than getting his end away and has/can have no idea of the outcome.
.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.... shite that is funny.......

[MSTRS]

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.... shite that is funny.......

Ya what? Put the nitrous down, fella. A stiff one has no conscience 'n all that, but not all of them would shirk their responsibility if they found out later.
There, but for....:sweatdrop

[Max Preload]

Huh????? Deoxy (mumble, mumble, something a rather...) Nucleic Acid... DNA...

But you have no right to challenge the 'mothers' refusal to allow a paternity test even entirely at your expense. She says you're the father, you say you're not, her word is law, you pay. You better believe it.


hm... the line you quote was taken quite out of context with both the post it was in, and my previous posts in the thread.
My main point was that simply dictating a time to spend working misses the point that the goal is productivity, not just filling time. I also think requiring a certain amount of productivity rather than a certain amount of time would cause less resentment towards the plan.

Not out of context at all. Inclusion by incentive (equally disincentive to refuse to participate) is the only road to productivity. It cannot be separated.

[SixPackBack]

But you have no right to challenge the 'mothers' refusal to allow a paternity test even entirely at your expense. She says you're the father, you say you're not, her word is law, you pay. You better believe it.

I find that impossible to believe.

[Big Dave]

Speaking of disgraces - Stretch on the cover?
The new format is good, though...

I heard they have to chuck him out of newsagents at closing time.

[Oscar]

I heard they have to chuck him out of newsagents at closing time.

I heard that he's locked in his garage with 50 copies and 2 gallons of hand cream...

[Skyryder]

I find that impossible to believe.


I've heard something simular. I can remember reading about a guy in Timaru who wanted a test from the mother who was based in Australia. She refused but he still had come up with child support.


Skyryder

[doc]

I was citing the situation where the father is innocent of any bad intent other than getting his end away and has/can have no idea of the outcome.
.

Aye ???? ...... Well first there was this real cool bird and he met this real hot bee.....Ferk someone help me out here. :gob:


Agree 1000% -

Well would you support the idea that the male must spend x no of years raising the child by himself. While the wanton husseies retrain . Of course this involves. MSTRS original quote. Partying at all those end of course functions. With no responsiblities of course. :woohoo:

[BIHB@0610]

Well would you support the idea that the male must spend x no of years raising the child by himself. While the wanton husseies retrain . Of course this involves. MSTRS original quote. Partying at all those end of course functions. With no responsiblities of course. :woohoo:

Where's Hitcher ....? :thud:

You may be surprised but I do partially support your idea - the ideal is that both parents are involved in raising a child, so yes, ideally the male would spend some time raising the child by himself (whether it's week on, week off, month on, month off, or year on, year off). Though I disagree with your label - I don't think a woman should be labelled a wanton hussy just because she falls pregnant - after all, it takes both sperm and egg to make a baby ....

And just quietly, from my experience (I completed an honours degree during my kids' early years - and they were never in daycare more than 15 hours a week) it's not all end of course functions and no responsibility - it's damned hard work. But the sense of achievement and fulfillment is worth it :first:

[doc]

But the sense of achievement and fulfillment is worth it :first:

Well I will agree with you on that one. But in our Rugby orientated society. (Kiwi) male's don't. :yes:

[Patrick]

She says you're the father, you say you're not, her word is law, you pay. You better believe it.

But surely there has to be a way... and if she is proved wrong, she pays your costs etc etc?


I find that impossible to believe.

+1.....................


Aye ???? ...... Well first there was this real cool bird and he met this real hot bee.....Ferk someone help me out here. :gob:

Dunno. MSTRS doesn't know either...:bleh:

[Patrick]

Ya what? Put the nitrous down, fella. A stiff one has no conscience 'n all that, but not all of them would shirk their responsibility if they found out later.
There, but for....:sweatdrop

You said it!!! It was funny.... You don't know the outcome.... Hillarious!!! "Getting his end away and having no idea of the outcome..."

Hah... made the bourbon come out me nose laughing at it again... shit!!!

Got an ex brother in law who has 4 kids to three women. Went the DNA way for one, so he didn't have to pay out for one he genuinely thought was not his. The little takka walked in and shite - they were identical twins 35 years apart!!!!!

Could have stopped there and then and saved the $2000 for the DNA test, but nooooooo......:bash:

[Max Preload]

I find that impossible to believe.


But surely there has to be a way... and if she is proved wrong, she pays your costs etc etc?

Ye have altogether too much faith in the system... see here (http://tinyurl.com/6drkyj).