Paper/Legal roads - Cadastral Map

[monchopper]

Hi Guys.
Has anyone seen this product ?http://www.freshmap.co.nz/products/cadastrals.htm

It says it gives all legal roads based on cadastral data from LINZ. It also looks like you can overlay this to topo maps. Which mean you can plan your routes over legal roads, upload to GPS and off you go.

I've been using Memory Map along with a handheld computer with GPS for a while to plan routes. The problem is always that I never know if roads are private or public. From reading many posts on here it's a common problem.

At $99 could this be pretty cheap answer?

Thanks for any insight.

[cooneyr]

This looks like a lot of useful info but users should be careful with it. Things change i.e. land owners and potentially road reserves are sold off. Also road reserves can be converted to nature reserves and yet still be in government title so the look like a road but they are not.

Besides if a road reserve is unmarked across a farm I'd still be asking the farmer for access especially during lambing/calving etc. Cant hurt to get denied occasionally rather than risk loosing access for good.

Cheers R

[paulj]

Besides if a road reserve is unmarked across a farm I'd still be asking the farmer for access especially during lambing/calving etc. Cant hurt to get denied occasionally rather than risk loosing access for good.

Cheers R

I agree 100% - I deal a lot with land issues - a proper approach and 'farm gate' chat with the farmer will usually get you much further than a presumption of access rights. And ... if you snap a chain, can off ... it's likely to be the farmer concerned who will come and get you!

[monchopper]

It looks like the freshmaps cadastral tool is useful for identifying potential routes and used in conjuction with some common courtesy (a phone call/chat), could open up a few new riding possibilities.

I agree mostly with the softly softly approach but thats not always going to happen. I think you've got to stick to your guns/rights sometimes.

If for example you've done the research, the piece of dirt you want to ride is 100% legal access, you've contacted the farmer and he tells you to piss off and gives no other reason than he doesn't want you riding that road.
Do you ride or not? Some say fuck 'em, some say I'll find somewhere else to ride.
What do you say?

[Winston001]

Nothing wrong with your idea. Good find.

I'm inclined to think the main purpose would be to argue rights when you think you are entitled to follow an unformed road, but have been denied permission.

That's the sort of discussion the free access to land people are having with Government and Federated Farmers.

Better to simply ask the land owner because that will have long-term goodwill consequences.

One thing to be aware of: I occasionally ride on a paper road in Central Otago, pretty remote. There is a track. But I'm fully aware that if the farmer told me to piss off and I pulled the paper road argument out - he could say "Fine - it runs up that bluff, make sure you stick to the survey!"

In other words, farm tracks are usually vague approximations of the legal road and you have no way of knowing exactly where you are. Often it will be on private land and the road will run across some impossible country.

[Racing Dave]

I agree with the theory that using cadastral maps is a good way of getting the lie of the land, and I've been using them for years when exploring for BMW (previously) Safari and now Yamaha Safari. Most District Councils have a chap whose passion is the mapping department, and if you can latch onto him then lots of good advice is at your finger tips. Next January's Yamaha Safari is based in Hanmer Springs, so I've been talking to the Hurunui Council about paper roads and access, and they've been most helpful. As have the majority of landowners that I've spoken to. However, I have never found that the actual track on the ground, and the track on the map are the same, and without exception permission will be needed, even if the alleged road appears to be public. Most farmers are approachable, and the very few who have been difficult about access are best forgotten, there's always somewhere new (and legal) to ride if you put the effort in.

[warewolf]

I've heard of one instance where the farmer moved the track from one side of the paddock to the other. He then tried to deny use of the new track as "he built it and it runs through his property, and it is not a paper road at that point." He changed his tune when it was pointed out to him that a group of upset motorcyclists cutting his (new) illegal fence at the paper road, and possibly riding less than gently up the paddock following the now disused paper road route, was less desirable than him kindly letting them use the new route that he'd built. And dobbing him in to the council for putting a fence across a roadway.

There are tossers on both sides of the fence.

I do a lot of asking for permission from farmers (for other reasons) and most are more than helpful. It is interesting to note that the ones that object for no apparent reason usually have no right to deny access in the first place eg that land is not theirs to deny.

[monchopper]

I agree with the theory that using cadastral maps is a good way of getting the lie of the land, and I've been using them for years when exploring for BMW (previously) Safari and now Yamaha Safari. Most District Councils have a chap whose passion is the mapping department, and if you can latch onto him then lots of good advice is at your finger tips. Next January's Yamaha Safari is based in Hanmer Springs, so I've been talking to the Hurunui Council about paper roads and access, and they've been most helpful. As have the majority of landowners that I've spoken to. However, I have never found that the actual track on the ground, and the track on the map are the same, and without exception permission will be needed, even if the alleged road appears to be public. Most farmers are approachable, and the very few who have been difficult about access are best forgotten, there's always somewhere new (and legal) to ride if you put the effort in.

I've read some write ups on those trips and they sound great (Not quite shoestring budget stuff). Any chance of you enlightening us on a couple of the routes? I'm particularly interested in the trail route from Maheno to Maniatoto (not Danseys), I'm looking into 2 possibilities One goes via Pisgah Spur (McKenzies Rd - Mt Pisgah Rd) the other is in the Ken Sibley book called Dunrobin Rd.

[Racing Dave]

Hi Simon,

You're right in that the Safari's are not shoestring affairs, but you get what you pay for. Accommodation and meals are deliberately of a high quality, as that's the type of event it is. The entry fee also includes the payment of private land access fees, sweep crews, bike rescue if possible, exploring costs, and the 101 other expenses that crop up. If there's any profit then Mike Britton can feed his family for another week, or two.

The route of next January's Yamaha Safari is a secret for now, but I can tell you that on the day that I am putting together, all the private properties are new to adventure riding and have views and tracks that you'll never get permission for unless on an organised trip. I'm deliberately choosing routes that will be fun and exciting on light trail bikes, yet totally rideable on big bikes, too. No unfortunate rocky/shaley/hairpinned/excessively steep surprises, this time! Knobblies are, as always, necessary, as is some off-road riding skill. My day's loop will be of about 350km, and as usual there'll be shortcuts and add-ons to make the day suitable for all abilities and experience. Like last year, all the route finding is being carried out on a Yamaha XT660R.

I'm not familiar with the Pisgah Spur, but on last year's Safari we used part of the Dunrobin Road route you mention, heading west from Herbert on Tulliemet Road (I think), then northwest up Cayenne Spur to Obi (Trig B at 1425m) and then south to SH85. Permission (and a fee) was required for this access, but not obtained by me, as this was not part of the Safari I was responsible for.

[clint640]

I've read some write ups on those trips and they sound great (Not quite shoestring budget stuff). Any chance of you enlightening us on a couple of the routes? I'm particularly interested in the trail route from Maheno to Maniatoto (not Danseys), I'm looking into 2 possibilities One goes via Pisgah Spur (McKenzies Rd - Mt Pisgah Rd) the other is in the Ken Sibley book called Dunrobin Rd.

Hi Mate, send Oldrider a PM, he lives in Otematata & knows most of the tracks in that area, who to ask permission from etc.

Cheers
Clint

[monchopper]

Hi Mate, send Oldrider a PM, he lives in Otematata & knows most of the tracks in that area, who to ask permission from etc.

Cheers
Clint

The following is an extract from http://www.publicaccessnewzealand.com

RECREATION:

Legal Access:

Legal access to Dome Hills is available on roads from Livingstone via the McKenzies Road and from Tokarahi via the Balmoral Road. McKenzie Road is metalled for about 4 km beyond Dome Hills homestead and from there a 4WD track continues up the ridge to Mt Pisgah. The road is surveyed as far as Trig D. From there the paper road is unsurveyed, however the Cadastral plan coincides almost exactly with the formed track apart from a stretch between 4 km and 3 km below Mt Pisgah. That section deviates by up to 500 m though an older track continues on the legal line.

From Mt Pisgah the paper road dives directly over the Kakanuis on to the Kyeburn Flats below, before joining up with the Mt Pisgah Road.


Has anyone ridden this road? Looking at Google Earth the terrain looks awesome.

[cooneyr]

The following is an extract from http://www.publicaccessnewzealand.com

RECREATION:

Legal Access:

Legal access to Dome Hills is available on roads from Livingstone via the McKenzies Road and from Tokarahi via the Balmoral Road. McKenzie Road is metalled for about 4 km beyond Dome Hills homestead and from there a 4WD track continues up the ridge to Mt Pisgah. The road is surveyed as far as Trig D. From there the paper road is unsurveyed, however the Cadastral plan coincides almost exactly with the formed track apart from a stretch between 4 km and 3 km below Mt Pisgah. That section deviates by up to 500 m though an older track continues on the legal line.

From Mt Pisgah the paper road dives directly over the Kakanuis on to the Kyeburn Flats below, before joining up with the Mt Pisgah Road.


Has anyone ridden this road? Looking at Google Earth the terrain looks awesome.

I'm interested but lazy at the moment - can you draw up a map and post it?

Cheers R

[monchopper]

I'm interested but lazy at the moment - can you draw up a map and post it?

Cheers R

Hi cooneyr

I attached a KMZ file with this post (hopefully). I've created the file from a mixture of maps/google earth and memory map. Heading north to south the final part of the road doesn't appear to be formed (google earth) from the just past Mt Pisgah to the formed part of Mt Pisgah Rd. The kmz I've created is a rough idea (Getting ready for All Blacks game) but doesn't represent the 'legal line'. Which is kinda the reason for my first post regarding the cadastral maps. I've also converted it to GPX but for some reason I can't upload that file format? Send me a PM and I'll email the gpx or you can use this freeware converter
http://groups.google.com/group/kml-support-getting-started/browse_thread/thread/e4aeef708194cfab/ec5e2ae637ed4bfc?#ec5e2ae637ed4bfc

cheers
Simon

[Winston001]

Haven't opened your attachment but assuming this is the 4wd road in the Kakanuis, I've always been curious about it. The only reason I even know it exists is because its described in the South Island 4WD book.

Anyway good on you for making the effort. I'm curious - can't a .kmz file be saved as a .tiff or .doc? Not that I've ever played around with Google Earth or topographic data - Quickmap is good enough for me. :D

[monchopper]

Haven't opened your attachment but assuming this is the 4wd road in the Kakanuis, I've always been curious about it. The only reason I even know it exists is because its described in the South Island 4WD book.

Anyway good on you for making the effort. I'm curious - can't a .kmz file be saved as a .tiff or .doc? Not that I've ever played around with Google Earth or topographic data - Quickmap is good enough for me. :D


Hi.
Get Google Earth on your computer if you've got broadband it's really good (and free). Just Google, Google Earth (if that makes sense) and download the installer and install. My previous attachment will open automatically in Google Earth. Give it a go you won't be disappointed (unless your PC come off the Ark!!)

I'm not sure which book you have, but it's not the same road (Titled Dunrobin Rd) in my 4wd book by Mark Wilson. That road(s) are slighly east/south east of the Pisgah rd. The route RacingDave describes earlier in the post that was used for the 2008 Yamaha Safari is a variation of the route in the book.

I've mapped those 2 routes (Best guess on the Cayenne Spur Racing Dave describes)

[marks]

Hi.
Get Google Earth on your computer if you've got broadband it's really good (and free). Just Google, Google Earth (if that makes sense) and download the installer and install. My previous attachment will open automatically in Google Earth. Give it a go you won't be disappointed

I didn't know that you could do this - its brilliant - thanks.

[cooneyr]

Hi cooneyr

I attached a KMZ file with this post (hopefully). I've created the file from a mixture of maps/google earth and memory map. Heading north to south the final part of the road doesn't appear to be formed (google earth) from the just past Mt Pisgah to the formed part of Mt Pisgah Rd. The kmz I've created is a rough idea (Getting ready for All Blacks game) but doesn't represent the 'legal line'. Which is kinda the reason for my first post regarding the cadastral maps. I've also converted it to GPX but for some reason I can't upload that file format? Send me a PM and I'll email the gpx or you can use this freeware converter
http://groups.google.com/group/kml-support-getting-started/browse_thread/thread/e4aeef708194cfab/ec5e2ae637ed4bfc?#ec5e2ae637ed4bfc

cheers
Simon

Gidday Simon,

Thanks for the KMZ file. I find GPSBabel (http://www.gpsbabel.org/) is a pretty good tool for converting to GPX files (can do batch converts if you know how to use DOS).

I'm really interested in this route for my web site (see my signature). I want to confirm access details before I will put it up on the ADVroutes site though.

I'm currently 2 weeks off having to submit my masters degree research report so I'm not really in a position to do much with this at the moment but if you ever get to ride the route and have a GPS I'd love a track file (GPX, GDB or whatever format). Also would be good if you can find out more about access, landowners details etc etc.

Cheers R

[Winston001]

Hi.
Get Google Earth on your computer if you've got broadband it's really good (and free). Just Google, Google Earth (if that makes sense) and download the installer and install. My previous attachment will open automatically in Google Earth. Give it a go you won't be disappointed (unless your PC come off the Ark!!)

I'm not sure which book you have, but it's not the same road (Titled Dunrobin Rd) in my 4wd book by Mark Wilson. That road(s) are slighly east/south east of the Pisgah rd. The route RacingDave describes earlier in the post that was used for the 2008 Yamaha Safari is a variation of the route in the book.

I've mapped those 2 routes (Best guess on the Cayenne Spur Racing Dave describes)

Thanks Mon. I used to have Google Earth on my old lappie but after an update, it wouldn't display properly. Haven't downloaded it on this new machine because I seldom use it so I'll chew it over.

Big ups to you for doing the mapping. I need to get an updated Quickmap application for property info and it will import data from Google Earth. However it comes with aerial pics anyway so that should do the job.

[Skinny_Birdman]

Nothing wrong with your idea. Good find.

I'm inclined to think the main purpose would be to argue rights when you think you are entitled to follow an unformed road, but have been denied permission.

That's the sort of discussion the free access to land people are having with Government and Federated Farmers.

Better to simply ask the land owner because that will have long-term goodwill consequences.

One thing to be aware of: I occasionally ride on a paper road in Central Otago, pretty remote. There is a track. But I'm fully aware that if the farmer told me to piss off and I pulled the paper road argument out - he could say "Fine - it runs up that bluff, make sure you stick to the survey!"

In other words, farm tracks are usually vague approximations of the legal road and you have no way of knowing exactly where you are. Often it will be on private land and the road will run across some impossible country.

Just saw this thread, which CooneyR originally linked me to while I was overseas and not in a position to answer. As someone who works in the field, I would agree wholeheartedly with comments such as those above - far better to exercise courtesy and tact, than barge on in with what you consider to be your legal rights (not that any KB adventure rider would do this, I'm sure). You should also be aware that the plotting of paper roads, even from Landonline, (Land Information NZ's supposedly authoritative record, from which any commercial cadastral data product will be sourced) is frequently distorted due to entry errors, dodgy adjustments, and a host of other reasons. These distortions are usually quite small, but can be as much as 50 - 100m. This, combined with the true accuracy of handheld GPS receivers probably rarely being better than +/- 5m, means that you can never be sure that you are actually on the paper road, even if it doesn't point you over a bluff. In the highly unlikely event that it were to go to court, you could find yourself in a hard position to defend. Just my $0.02.

Cheers
A