Riding in a Cagers blindspot

[Ms Piggy]

I had been reading about this in 'Two Wheels' and realised how important it is to be aware.

On Sunday riding up Victoria St a driver started indicating and slowly changing into the lane I was in and basically into me. I tooted and she was going very slowly and got a fright and stipped moving over but, it (once again) made me aware of how careful I have to be as a rider and how aware I have to be of my surroundings and where I am positioned on the road. :ride:

[Devil]

I had been reading about this in 'Two Wheels' and realised how important it is to be aware.

On Sunday riding up Victoria St a driver started indicating and slowly changing into the lane I was in and basically into me. I tooted and she was going very slowly and got a fright and stipped moving over but, it (once again) made me aware of how careful I have to be as a rider and how aware I have to be of my surroundings and where I am positioned on the road. :ride:
Sometimes you just cant do anything about it.
I was cruising along on a dual lane road, in the left lane minding my own business. The next thing I know, a car in the right lane who had come up from BEHIND me(!!!) started to change lanes into mine, right next to me.
Mass tootling ensued and the guy stopped coming over any further, but didnt turn back either.
*insert remark about ethnic origin here*.

[Sniper]

Yep I have seen that once too often.

Taxi drivers are remarkably bad at it. Shows how we should also try educate the morons by way of losing a mirror a slight damage to personal property of them you know. :shifty:

[James Deuce]

Always ride as if a car driver has no vision whatsoever. Then you won't be surprised when it does run you over.

[TonyB]

Sometimes it doesn't matter what you do. Some people never seem to check their mirrors. I followed a car for about 10 mins once on a windy road, when I finally got the chance to pass there was only a short straight so I chocked down a few gears and fed it copious amounts of throttle. A bit later I stopped to admire the view when the same car turns up. Out hops a bloke, who say's in a thick Aussie drawl "Nice day for a ride. You're in a bit of a hurry there aren't you tiger? I thought you'd come out of me boot!" He had no idea that I'd been behind him for 10 mins. The bikes headlight was on (couldn't be switched off). How he couldn't notice a 90 watt halogen head light in his mirrors is beyond me...

[crashe]

It happens all the time on the motorways... even in the suburbs when there is two lanes....

I guess they just want our lane.... or is it becos that they want to say hello...
I just wish that they would be happy to stay in their own space in their own lane... lol.

MY SPACE IS MY SPACE... and I aint sharing it...

I toot as long as.. hmmm I would like to have a truck horn on my bike...

[Coyote]

I toot as long as.. hmmm I would like to have a truck horn on my bike...
or one of those novelty horns with the 3 red sirens :p

[Ms Piggy]

Sometimes it doesn't matter what you do. Some people never seem to check their mirrors.
Actually what they should be doing is checking their blind spot by turning their head and physically looking - like I always do on my bike. Relying on mirrors alone is what causes accidents. Although I do realise that I should avoid riding in a blind spot b/c motorists do just rely on their mirrors.

[TonyB]

Actually what they should be doing is checking their blind spot by turning their head and physically looking - like I always do on my bike. Relying on mirrors alone is what causes accidents. Although I do realise that I should avoid riding in a blind spot b/c motorists do just rely on their mirrors.
Ahhhh but....I was alway's taught to turn my head and have a look before changing lanes, still do, but when I first moved to the big smoke I discovered you've got to do it really quick- the people in front of you often seem to hit the brakes while you've got your head turned :eek: Never had an accident because of that, but I bet that's why a lot of cagers don't check.

[F5 Dave]

Just the point I was about to make in relation to the mirrors comment earlier.

Even on a bike people do it esp. in a group, they assume they are the only one going to pass & someone a little further behind gets impatient & is just about beside them as they pull out.

It is easier to do in a car but the fabled ‘Messerschmitt Flick’ Brit fighter pilots were taught saved lives then & is still doing so now (though maybe should be called the 4WD flick for bikers).

[F5 Dave]

I think they don't check because they are unaware that anything exists out of their field of vision. Life only occurs to the front.

Plus the seat locks your shoulders a bit.

[jrandom]

With regard to head-turning, I've always found it vital to do it only when I have sufficient stopping space in front of me, PLUS sufficient carrying-on-at-current-speed space for a second or two's inattention. If I'm running out of room in front, I'll take care of that before I start waving my noggin around. I just assume something deadly is in my own blind spot until proven otherwise.

And yes, cage drivers are trying to kill you. It has become evident to me over the last two years that the best course to take is simply assuming that as soon as you come within range, they will immediately attempt to swerve and crush you.

It does get me occasional funny looks when I wildly dodge to the other side of the road after an innocent low-speed pull-out maneuver from someone 200m away, but what the hell. I've never crashed in traffic when I was being paranoid. Only when I was riding like a git. I'll stick with paranoia.

[**R1**]

As someone has said "ride as if they cant see at all" i do but i have still been run onto roundabouts coz some 4x4 driving dickhead changed lines half way through,..... so i re-educate them one driver at a time....amazing how even when your bashing on their window and screaming loads of nasy abuse at them they still cant see you :bash: ..man i hate cagers....

[TonyB]

On the subject of blind spots: ever been riding with a freind, looked in the mirrors, couldn't see them, looked over both shoulders- still can't see them...where the f---k have they gone...then they ride past you?

Or this: done a brake test on the bike, check mirrors, pull to the left, hit anchors...and a car sails past. :eek5: :blink:

Bikes have terrible blind spots behind you. Or at least every one I've owned does.

[Sniper]

On the subject of blind spots: ever been riding with a freind, looked in the mirrors, couldn't see them, looked over both shoulders- still can't see them...where the f---k have they gone...then they ride past you?

Or this: done a brake test on the bike, check mirrors, pull to the left, hit anchors...and a car sails past. :eek5: :blink:

Bikes have terrible blind spots behind you. Or at least every one I've owned does.

Its called selective sight, or low perephiral vision in men (Its a good thing) but its a useful skill, like selective hearing :Offtopic:

[ajturbo]

toughen up girl..
kick the fuckers... don't use the horn......

:2thumbsup :ride:

[FlyingDutchMan]

I've had the same thing happen to me, but it was from both sides at the same time (Yaldhurst road merging with main south to make riccarton road). I came from yaldhurst road side, was goind round the side of a bus at the bus stop, and cage came in from the right, right beside me. Cage changed into my lane just as the bus started pulling out into my lane. I stood on the horn and the brakes. The bus stopped (even if he hadn't indicated to start off with), but the cage just kept going without ever noticing anything. The cage got past me and I had about 1/2 a foot on either side. Talk about fucken unpleasant... I'm always very weary when going past there when theres a bus.

[Skunk]

but its a useful skill, like selective hearing :Offtopic: :killingme Use it a lot myself.

What? :spudwhat:

[Hitcher]

I plan to buy some of those stick-on "blind spot reducing" mirrors for the ST. While its mirrors are pretty darned good, they give a reasonably narrow band of rear vision and head turns are even more vital when lane changing.

[Ms Piggy]

toughen up girl..
kick the fuckers... don't use the horn......

:2thumbsup :ride:
I'm faaaaaaaaaaaaar tooo much of a lady to be kicking off peoples mirrors! :bleh:

[vifferman]

I plan to buy some of those stick-on "blind spot reducing" mirrors for the ST. While its mirrors are pretty darned good, they give a reasonably narrow band of rear vision and head turns are even more vital when lane changing.
Surprising, that, given that the VifFerraRi's mirrors are the best I've had for a long time. I kind of expected the St's would be the same only more betterer.
Is it related to them being of the 'underarm' type?

The last three bikes before the VifFerraRi had absolutely abysmal mirrors, with the VTR being the worst of the lot. Pretty mirrors, but next to useless except for using as 'whiskers' to gauge the width of the bike when lane-splitting. :laugh:

Still, at least that (further) developed the habit of checking by looking over my shoulder (or under my arm, depending on the bike). This habit started when I first started to ride, when my father (who'd flown Harvards after the war) told me about it being drilled into fighter pilots, and that I should adopt the same habit.

[F5 Dave]

Yeah & let’s be honest, that sort of facker is likely to swerve in attack if you do kick their car & you will come off pretty bad. Even if they don’t get you they won’t think they were in the wrong & the next biker they come across they will take their revenge upon.

[Hitcher]

Is it related to them being of the 'underarm' type?

Indeed. Unlike "normal" handlebar-mounted mirrors, you can't appreciably change your field of view by sitting forward or moving from side to side. Hands, knees and boops-a-daisy (aka panniers) feature large in the view rearwards.

Nonetheless they are great mirrors -- the first time on a bike I've been able to read the rego plates on vehicles 100m astern, at highway speeds!

[Kickaha]

I've always thought that a cars blind spot extended through a full 360 degrees and ride accordingly

[mangell6]

I've always thought that a cars blind spot extended through a full 360 degrees and ride accordingly

Exactly!!! :mad:

[toads]

I have found a few cage drivers look straight at me and then try to shove me off the road, but the blind spot issue is something all motorists have to contend with, I tend to use my mirrors far too often and not turn my head, as you say it's something we should all do!

[El Dopa]

If I'm in a stream of traffic on the motorway or highway, I'm checking my mirrors every few seconds, and I've got a pretty good picture in my head of what the traffic stream around me is doing relative to me.

If the blue subaru, or bike, or 4x4 isn't there next time I look, then I don't do what I was going to do, like change lane or whatever. It usually turns out they were in the blind spot and we would have made a close acquaintence if I had pulled out.

I've given up being surprised that other road users can't seem to remember what they were looking at more than 4 seconds earlier.

I ride/drive like they will all do the stupidest and most dangerous thing they possibly can do in any given situation.

[sels1]

I've always thought that a cars blind spot extended through a full 360 degrees and ride accordingly

LOL that is so true. Another thing I do if I have to follow a car for a while is wander about the lane shining my headlight in each of its 3 mirrors....somethimes they actually see me and pull over a bit and let me past

[TwoSeven]

As a biker you shouldnt assume the cager or anyone else is using their mirrors - neither should you assume they are looking since many dont even do that - just because someone is looking directl at you doesnt mean they see you.

Basically, never follow behind a car and always leave a 2 - 3 second gap. If you have to get close to the back of the car, always ride about a foot to the right of the drivers side.

The reason behind it is that if the car stops dead, you'll go along side at worst, rather than run into its rear. The only rule behind this is london taxis which can turn on their axis - so you should only ever follow those using a 2 sec gap.

Also, if you cannot see the drivers face in their mirrors you are in their blind spot. Its important to watch the drivers face as where they look will tell you what their next move will be or at least give a good hint.

And remember motorcycles have blind spots too. I often ride in them to see how long it takes the rider to see that I am there. Kiwi riders seem to have this habbit of not looking behind them.

I did some recent driving up napier way at xmas and on the way to the boxing day racing and we were appalled at the poor quality of Kiwi bike riders. I think it was just pure luck there were no serious crashes - just about every bike we saw was tailgating traffic at 100kph and the ones that overtook on blind bends made us really cringe.

[Bounty]

What amazes me the most is that when they try and move into your lane they think its your fault for you being there not their fault for not seeing you!

[Indiana_Jones]

I just pretend that Ray Charles is everywhere, behind the wheel, crossing the road, chasing a ball :sly:

-Indy

[pete376403]

Latest "Two Wheels" (with MV Ago on cover) notes that "Volvo have launched "BLIS" - BLind spot Identifiaction System as an option. Used two digital cameras, and computer software to recognise presence of another vehicle or bike in the drivers blind spot. Will add $1200 to the cost of the car" TW also notes that drivers could simply adjust the mirrors and turn their heads... see also http://www.mynrma.com.au/blis.asp

[Holy Roller]

Even with ones headlight on full and the driver being aware that you are there is no comfort as drivers tend to cut corners on windy hilly roads. I followed a cage up one side of the Rotoma's and when a passing place came up the cage driver just cut the corner as I was passing him forcing me into the loose stuff on the righthand side of the road :angry2: Later he mentioned that he had seen me behind him and indicate to pass but as was his habit to cut that paticular corner he forgot that I was there until my horn woke him up to the fact that I was beside him.
One needs to treat every other road user as if they are out to get ya.

[F5 Dave]

The reason they see you but ‘don’t see you’ is you don’t present much of a threat.

If you were a truck they would SEE you. If you were a Hells Angel back in the 70s they would SEE you. If you were a Traffic Cop on a Bike they would SEE you.

[Hooks]

The reason they see you but ‘don’t see you’ is you don’t present much of a threat.

If you were a truck they would SEE you. If you were a Hells Angel back in the 70s they would SEE you. If you were a Traffic Cop on a Bike they would SEE you.


EEEggggzacary !!.... :argh: what we need to do is start a nationwide campaign that states that if they move over we will retaliate :kick: .... the look out for bikes campaign never did much ... :brick: so lets try a more pro-active one !! :whistle:

[MSTRS]

I'm buying shares in the replacement mirror & panelbeating industries. Retirement here I come

[SlashWylde]

There's a couple of elements to this:

First, all humans suffer from selective awareness. We all have a subconcious prioritised list of things we expect to see and watch out for. Motorcyclists, cyclists and pedestrians just aren't up there. This is why a cager can look straight at you then calmly change lanes into the space you are occupying. Their eyes have seen you but the information has been rejected by the brain because it wasn't a priority on the list - assuming it was there at all. A good example of this is bikers and cyclists who get hit in bus lanes, they weren't on the mental list 'cause the cagers were looking for big buses (which can hurt them) not bikes which are 'just a nuisance' - assuming they were looking for anything at all.

Second, try this sometime you are out on a ride with your wife/GF/buddy: Find a nice empty stretch of carpark, stop the bike and straddle it engine off. Get wife/GF/buddy to step to your left by about 2 meters then walk away behind you in a straight line parallel to your wheel track whilst you look in your mirror. Get them to drop a marker on the ground when they dissapear from your mirror. Continue on till they reappear in mirror - drop another marker. Repeat on RHS of bike.

Next, turn around and prepare to be amazed at the amount of space occupied by that rectangle marked out on the ground.

Just shows how important those inclined head-flicks are to check the ole blind spot.

[thehollowmen]

The reason they see you but ‘don’t see you’ is you don’t present much of a threat.

If you were a truck they would SEE you. If you were a Hells Angel back in the 70s they would SEE you. If you were a Traffic Cop on a Bike they would SEE you.

Maybe we should import some C90's airsoft guns and strap them to our chests as we ride ....?

Also the stainless BBs might be useful to take out windows...

(disclaimer, I'm just taking the shit here)

[Clockwork]

I used to read a UK biker site where they were continually bitching about the enforcement of strict noise regulations and how they felt the after-market exhausts made them safer. For the last twelve months I've been riding a 1000cc twin with Two Brothers after-market pipes.... I commute into Wellington daily and can say I can't recall ever being cut up by anyone.......... there may be a connection.

[FROSTY]

well all good feedback-sounded really good -Untill some fuckwit pulled a U turn right in front of me today. I had eye contact with the guy. I had headlight on and i was doing the speed limit. Still he just pulled his uey
I found out just how fast my reactions can be and just how good XJ900 brakes can be when they have to be.
Sure sure its just another car V bike story-- But My front wheel ended up buried in his passenger door -Damged nasty dent that. -No bamage to the bike but He's up for a decent panelbeating bill.

[Posh Tourer :P]

Always ride as if a car driver has no vision whatsoever. Then you won't be surprised when it does run you over.

Does being unsurprised help significantly?

[Monsterbishi]

Gotta say, as far as Blindspots go, the huge ears that my YZF has for wingmirrors give a full field of view...

And I think there should be a law change requiring all bikes to have at least semi-loud exhausts for safety reasons!

[dhunt]

I don't have any blind spots on my bike, the whole thing is a bit of a blind spot behind me, Only time I can really see well behind me is mid corner, so I have to turn my head to really see anything. Stupid aftermarket mirrors that look better than orginals.

[Mongoose]

I used to read a UK biker site where they were continually bitching about the enforcement of strict noise regulations and how they felt the after-market exhausts made them safer. For the last twelve months I've been riding a 1000cc twin with Two Brothers after-market pipes.... I commute into Wellington daily and can say I can't recall ever being cut up by anyone.......... there may be a connection.

Unless your zorst is meggy loud it would make no difference, the noise is behind you and not heard by a cage driver, specially with the windows up and the CD playing.

[James Deuce]

Does being unsurprised help significantly?

Once more you have earned your epithet, O Most Observant one.

Actually it does. I find I break fewer bones when I relax, instead of tensing up. If I take the impact in a "Meh" state of mind I usually bounce better.

[Paul in NZ]

For a variety of reasons I have been forced to spend a lot of time commuting in our cars lately. While stuck in traffic I have observed a lot of riders filtering and the behavior of both myself and my fellow motorists. My observations are:

Blind spots.
All bikes (and full face helmets) and other vehicles have blind spots big enough to hide a full sized FWD. Turning your head is not only a good idea but should be essential BUT doing so does NOT guarantee that there is nothing in you blind spot.

When riding a bike with clipons etc most riders will find it very difficult to turn their heads enough to cover that spot. In fact on some bikes it’s had to see traffic coming from the left at intersections

Cars have their own issues. Cars with overstuffed side bolsters at the top of the seat make if really difficult to turn enough to cover the spot. Other cars have badly positioned A and B pillars which makes it even worse.

Couple bad seat design, poor pillar location and an older driver and you have a recipe for disaster for someone passing with out making allowances.

Note: I found that even after checking all my mirrors AND turning my head I could loose a full sized Mitsi Pajero in the blind spot on my Magna SW. I could not believe it was possible but it is!

Mirrors.
In heavy traffic, your following distance is really the only thing you can control and most of the activity is happening up front. Indeed, what is happening in front of you is determining the speed and safety of your vehicle so it is utterly reasonable to concentrate on the area.

An attentive driver (in traffic) will consciously check their mirrors (say) every 20 seconds? (rough guess)

Most drivers seem to give priority to centre mirror and drivers side wing mirror.

The motorways around Wellington and not straight and even when they ARE people do not travel line a stern. Ie some are more to the left and some are more to the right and some people drive very large vehicles wider than my Starlets field of rearward vision, I’m generally lucky to get a clear view of more than 6 vehicles behind me. (lets say 50M)

Note: This is in heavy traffic crawling at rush hour OK. Not the usual 85kph slog.

Filtering
How fast do you ride when filtering?

Lets say 50kph in slow moving to stopped traffic. That is (correct me if my maths is wrong here guys) 13.8 Meters per second. That means you will cover the 50M I can see in 3.6 seconds.

Even if I could see 200M you would travel that in 14.5 seconds. That’s less than the period between mirror scans. Most people will not know you are there because you are not visible! (they can only pick you up from when you appear from around the bend / from behind the Van etc to when you enter the blind spot.

Think about it. I check my mirrors. No bike. Heck my mirrors again 15 sec’s later, no bike and yet a bike could easily be in my blind spot!

Note: 50kph differential between traffic is quite high, normally it would be lower I think.

Changing Lane
Heavy traffic is difficult. The fact is people DO need to change lanes to get to off ramps. It can’t be helped. In heavy traffic, IF a lane change opportunity opens up (in the direction you need to go) you will take it. You will check your mirrors, you may turn you head but that does not means you will see anyone in your blind spot. But you will change lane once you have committed to the maneuver unless some compelling event forces you to stop.

Conclusions.
If you do the maths and study how you yourself drive, you will realize that if you filter through traffic you need to assume everyone in front of you has no idea you are there. They are looking, they are not bad drivers, they are human beings in a high stress environment doing their best but there is a REALLY high chance that they will NOT see you.

[Biff]

As I general rule of thumb I always avoid riding next to any vehicle if I believe I'm in their blind spot (see the "have you ever" thread as to my reason why). I agree with the comments made here so far, assume the worst and you won't get any nasty shocks.

Another rule I have (off topic a bit) is that I always avoid pulling up to a junction without a cage, or preferably a lorry next to me. When I pull out I like to keep beside the other vehicle, using them as a shield to protect me. Sounds a little weird doesn't it? I got taught this by a bikey cop while on my advanced riders course back in the UK. A useful, potentially life saving tip I guess.

[MSTRS]

Us 'older' bikers tend to do all sorts of safety-related manoeuvres without actually being conscious of doing them. Part of the reason we got to be older bikers?? Is there a book or website whatever that lists all the little things that increase our chances?

[Biff]

Us 'older' bikers tend to do all sorts of safety-related manoeuvres without actually being conscious of doing them. Part of the reason we got to be older bikers?? Is there a book or website whatever that lists all the little things that increase our chances?

Yes - I'm buggered if I can remember what it's called though, but OAB has a copy of it at the moment and Motomail sell it.

R1Aaron - did you lend it to OAB?

[bugjuice]

I had someone pull onto me yesterday. They passed underneath me, then the traffic slowed, so I passed them again, then they indicated while moving across. I hit the horn as fast as I could, then the driver swerved back a few inches from me.. All over too quickly and could have been messy.. So many don't check at all, or often enough. You just have to assume never, and be ready for it.. Like has been said before, ride like your invisable (but this theory doesn't work going past cops. They often see you..).

As for Paul in NZ, about the filtering facts etc, very interesting about the calculating.. I've always made it a rule to go no faster than 20kph, regardless if the traffic is moving or not, all depending of course. I rode past 3 cops on Friday doing this, and none gave me any jip whatsoever, but interesting to figure out how doing 50 is really that quick.. I'm happy to stick to 20 and only when I want to be passing..

[Motu]

Keeping an eye on the driver is a good giveaway,but you can't give it to some people.Coming down the Mway a few days ago,not peak hour,but quite a few cars around - I spot a bike way back,he's really cutting the traffic,making big exagerated swoops to change lanes and cut up traffic,having fun.I'm in the middle lane just getting past a slower vehicle as the bike nears me - in front of me is all clear,I turn my head to look out my left mirror to judge when it's safe to move over to the left lane and I see the bike heading for the gap! dick head,I have indicated by this time and he has to swerve to the otherside.He probably thought ''what a wanker in the Pajero'' but my intentions were clear,if he was looking at what I was doing he wouldn't of aimed for a disapearing gap.It was 250 sports bike,enjoying the thrill of the learning curve,hope he gets through it ok.

On the same subject - heading south in the mighty Paj on sunday,lot's of bikes heading south for some get together I presume - not a good look guys,I don't think the cars enjoyed being buzzed by bikes every few minutes,every passing manouver exagerated and close to dangerous.If you thought they were all jealous thinking they wished they could be on a bike enjoying themselves,I don't think so - I'm glad I wasn't on my bike getting tarred with your brush.

[Wolf]

I have found a few cage drivers look straight at me and then try to shove me off the road, but the blind spot issue is something all motorists have to contend with, I tend to use my mirrors far too often and not turn my head, as you say it's something we should all do!

LOVE the look straight at the biker and drive in front of him anyway manoeuvre </sarcasm>

I use mirrors and turn head but you've gotta be quick - I arse-ended a car through not being sharpish on looking forward again.

I get seriously annoyed with the guys coming out of side roads in front of you that stare at you for three to six seconds and then decide to pull out into your lane (then come to a full stop, select neutral, reselect first and accelerate away at 1/4 throttle). Even more "fun" when they do it in a truck-and-trailer - the puzzlement you get from them when you go past them with one finger extended is a joy to behold.

I've had very few problems with people merging in front of me as I'm generally expecting them and I automatically assume that (as cagers) they have their heads up their fundamentals, it's those who come past from behind me then lane switch in front of me that I've had the most problems with