DIY carbon fibre

[skelstar]

Without being able to ride my bike and no commitments, I've got a fair bit of time on my hands now and am considering giving Carbon Fibre fabricating a bit of a nudge. I remember watching a YouTube video on how to do it (maybe before my accident not sure) and it does look a little involved but I was wondering what you guys thought.


Had a go and found it too difficult?
Materials just too expensive/hard to obtain?
Have a garage to do this in, but not a huge amount of space... problem?
Watch more YouTube vids to learn how, or maybe a book?


Thought I would start with something simple like some heal-guards, ultimately nothing more serious than a hugger, or front-guard I think.

Thoughts?

[Qkchk]

Id be interested in finding this out myself. I used to deliver carbon fibre / fibreglass / resins by the truckload to boatbuilders and always wondered how difficult it would be to DIY.

Nuplex in Patiki Road (AKL) used to have a treasure trove of CF......

[imdying]

Definitely give it a go, it's fun. Probably burn no more than a grand getting started, by the time you have the tools and have made half a dozen moulds and parts.

[skelstar]

Hmmm, a grand. I'm am cheap but was hoping to spend little less before I found out the intricacies I suppose.

[Skunk]

Talk to nudemetalz, he does carbon fibre stuff.

[imdying]

Well, carbon is around $80-120 a square metre, but fibreglass is nice n cheap. Do everything you were going to do, but in fibreglass. Once you've mastered that, then move to carbon... less expensive waste :)

You want to be vacuum bagging your stuff, so you want to get a vacuum pump as cheaply as possible. They're around $400 new, so look for a second hand one.

Rollers... brushes... resins... cleaning stuff... the list of stuff you need is endless.

[imdying]

Oh, and get used to seeing the word poison everywhere :blink:

And do not fuck with the MEK, it's not very nice to humans.

And do not sand your carbon bits without wearing a respirator... it's called the black death for a pretty good reason.

Other than that, have fun!

[skelstar]

Sounds like bags of fun :) ...yeah like the look of CF, not trying to save weight. I'm shallow like that.

[Freakshow]

As they suggest playing with glas first is a cheap and easier way to start.
There are also some nasty shortcuts like we are using a few frdge compressors in reverse to make the vacum pump.

[imdying]

Well in that case, you can do the outside layer in carbon, and the internal layers in fibreglass... that'll save many dollars :yes:

You can get woven fibreglass, which effectively is like carbon to work with (as opposed to the chopped strand mat).

[imdying]

There are also some nasty shortcuts like we are using a few frdge compressors in reverse to make the vacum pump.Yep, that'll work... a nasty big rotary would probably be good, although a little noisy :s

[skelstar]

Awesome write-up in that link you sent imdying. Shit... looks scary, and to be honest not having a license to drive and source this shit is going to be more difficult than buying groceries. Might have a think about it for a bit, was going to wait until the weather heats up a bit anyway :)

[imdying]

Yeah, I've been hibernating over winter, it's a very time consuming process, sitting in a garage sanding stuff isn't the most fun you'll ever have.

[imdying]

Here's a little more light reading that will help: http://www.harveyscomposites.co.za/Information/troubleshooting_table.aspx

[dilz]

Ever considered asking a local boat yard if it would be possible to watch/participate in a cf lay up every other satday?I know my boss would be sweet if someone asked as long as we didnt have any confidential work going on.
they may even flick you some scraps that you could use on small pieces,or cost materials if your lucky..

just a thought:rockon:

[hayd3n]

yeah mek is bad it eats your fatty tissue drys your hands out real quick give ya dermatitis i work with this shit everyday wear gloves chemical resistant stuff and its also good for fixing crack in your abs fairings you can mix it with abs offcuts and make a great glue for repairs and it sandable/ paintable

[hayd3n]

bump !@#$%^

[98tls]

Without being able to ride my bike and no commitments, I've got a fair bit of time on my hands now and am considering giving Carbon Fibre fabricating a bit of a nudge. I remember watching a YouTube video on how to do it (maybe before my accident not sure) and it does look a little involved but I was wondering what you guys thought.


Had a go and found it too difficult?
Materials just too expensive/hard to obtain?
Have a garage to do this in, but not a huge amount of space... problem?
Watch more YouTube vids to learn how, or maybe a book?


Thought I would start with something simple like some heal-guards, ultimately nothing more serious than a hugger, or front-guard I think.

Thoughts? Good luck and post up the results of your toil,fwiw heres a pic of a carbon screen i bought.

[Madness]

Here (http://yellow.co.nz/companies/Fibre-Glass/Carboglass-Mouldings/100270292_804.html) is someone close to where you are Skel that might be worth a visit?. Viv is the guy's name from memory.

[nudemetalz]

I got a tabletop made by that person Madness mentions and I had to cut it up for scrap as the weaves were not parallel and all over the place. Was very unimpressed.
So, I got a new one made by Brian Terry (brianterry1013@hotmail.com).
He does a lot of Racetech stuff and did an excellent job of my new tabletop.


I don't actually mould it myself but fabricate shapes from my carbon fibre pieces for bracketry for Lady Penelope (the Bucket racer).

[ManDownUnder]

a wee note of caution. I understand it were CF (and/or the chemicals involved?) that brought Britten's life to an untimely end.

I hope I'm wrong - but it's a caution worth checking out...

[Ocean1]

Sounds like bags of fun :) ...yeah like the look of CF, not trying to save weight. I'm shallow like that.

Fashion victim huh? *sigh*

I've got some woven stuff here you can play with if you want dude.

Might be able to scare up a vacuum pump...


Well in that case, you can do the outside layer in carbon, and the internal layers in fibreglass... that'll save many dollars :yes:

You can get woven fibreglass, which effectively is like carbon to work with (as opposed to the chopped strand mat).

Can get glass designed to look indistinguishable from CF, quite likely most items you think look like CF actually aint.

[imdying]

Can get glass designed to look indistinguishable from CF, quite likely most items you think look like CF actually aint.Yep, black dyed 2x2 twill woven glass is a pretty close match, and very hard to tell apart. There's also other stuff like the texaluminum which although isn't carbon, is still kinda neat.

[pete376403]

a wee note of caution. I understand it were CF (and/or the chemicals involved?) that brought Britten's life to an untimely end.

I hope I'm wrong - but it's a caution worth checking out...

C/F causes melanoma?

[imdying]

If working with carbon fibre helped contribute to his cancer, then it wasn't the materials themselves that were to blame (if his biographies are to be believed), it was just improper handling that did it. A respirator is cheap, use one.

[skelstar]

Can get glass designed to look indistinguishable from CF, quite likely most items you think look like CF actually aint.
Well I'm not too fussy to take this route as its more form/function for me.

O1, where is the source for this stuff?

[driftn]

Deano and myself have found that fiber glassing is not all that hard. One one would assume that it is pretty much the same. We could help you mate cause we are good bastards

[skelstar]

you are a good mate :)

[Ocean1]

Well I'm not too fussy to take this route as its more form/function for me.

O1, where is the source for this stuff?

Pretend carbon?

For the quantities you want best go talk to Viv at Carboglass in Peterkin St.

I've got some heavy woven E glass at home if you want to practice different techniques.

Important to realise that, generally speaking if you're working with polyester you're using chopped strand mat. If you're using woven roving then you're using epoxy. Quite different methods req'd.

[CookMySock]

Layups for beginners are easy.

Get this stuff ;

Flat sheet of glass about 300mm square and get it really clean and dry.
one meter of fibreglass cloth - preferably stuff thats not been folded into a tiny square, ugh..
500mL tin of polyester resin + MEKP catalyst (Repco et al)
75mm ish plastic scraper (Mitre 10 et al)
ten small paper cups (beg some off your mobile espresso vendor)
a bag of ice block sticks from the supermarket
Sharp box cutter
Clean and dry 50mm paint brush (cheap one)
Material called <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taffeta">Tafetta</a> - cut to 30mm larger than your fibreglass cloth square. You can skip this stuff if you like, but its the fun part I reckon.

To do a trial learner-layup ;

Cut out three squares of glass cloth 1cm larger than the glass square and set them down where they wont get get dirt on them or get knocked on the floor.

Get a clean paper cup and ice block stick and put two fingers (only!) of resin in the cup, and when you are ready, set the resin off by adding catalyst and stirring it in promptly. Don't whisk it or you will add lotsa bubbles. Scrape the sides and stir in well. 60 seconds stirring time ish.

Spiral half of the catalyzed resin onto the glass and spread with the scraper. Drop a layer of cloth accurately into place and tamp it down with the tip of the brush - try not to wet the brush. Scrape (with the scraper!) the cloth down gently until it goes clear-coloured. You dont need much resin! Add another layer of cloth, tamp down, and scrape until the resin comes through. If the layup wont wet properly, then add a little resin. Overall, you will be surprised by how little resin you need. Make sure each layer is fully transparent and wetted (no opaque dry spots) before you add another later of glass cloth. Repeat for all the layers, making the last layer a little wetter. If you run out of resin (you will) use a clean cup and stick and make a fresh batch. Dont make large batches! It will go off in the cup in only minutes coz of the heat it generates.

Now lay the Taffeta over the top and stretch it out and tamp/scrape it down quite firmly. Resin will come through this new layer.

If the layup is not starting to set after 15-20 mins, the put the whole layup somewhere warmer (15 degC ish).

Once it starts to set like firm toffee, use the sharp box cutter to knife the edges along the edges of the glass. Skip this step if your layup is much smaller than glass. Be careful, the spikes are sharp.

Leave it until its fully set hard, 2-5 hours depending on temperature. Best leave it until the next day.

Peel the edge up carefully on the taffeta and tear it back - sticking-plaster stylez.

Slip a blade in between the layup and the glass pane, and seperate the two, and carefully pull them apart. Sand the edges smooth and you have your first practice layup.

Using a release agent (like PVA glue, but solvent based), you can mold a part off anything at all using the same or similar procedure. Glass doesnt really need a release agent coz glue has problems sticking to it anyway.

Corrections invited. Abuse will be completely ignored.

Fibreglass is fun.
Steve

[skelstar]

For the quantities you want best go talk to Viv at Carboglass in Peterkin St.
Right, will get Drew motivated about this Pretend CF. I'm not too proud.

[imdying]

ten small paper cups (beg some off your mobile espresso vendor)It's worth spending a little extra, imho, and getting cups with graduations marked on them. You'll find out why :lol: :soon:

/edit: No, not you, skel* :lol:

[CookMySock]

It's worth spending a little extra, imho, and getting cups with graduations marked on them.Yeah, but its ok for newbies mixing polyester, as long as they follow the destructions on the tin. For mixing EPOXY, yes, but I'd go a step further and borrow the kitchen digital scales (loosely wrap them in clingwrap.) which is why I didnt make my example based on epoxy, even though it sets more slowly. Polyester isnt going to set fast this time of year anyway, and prolly it wont set at all under 12 deg C.

The most important thing, is to do it, and see that its easy and fun.

Steve

[hayd3n]

and watch out as it can go on fire (very hard to tell) just put it out with a bit of water i always put water over my leftovers

and also a lil (drop or 2) of cobolt can help on cold days to help harden to resin!!!

[CookMySock]

and watch out as it can go on fire Yes, this is why you mix up little amounts at a time. A good reason to NEVER put your cup of resin on your workpiece, LOL.

Anyway, all the warnings are not a good enough reason not to try it. It is perfectly straight forward, and so much fun to do.

Wait until you try using dry micro - just like icing a cake!


Steve

[imdying]

Yeah, but its ok for newbies mixing polyester, as long as they follow the destructions on the tin.Yep, it's just easier as a newb to know exactly how much MEK is required :)



For mixing EPOXY, yes, but I'd go a step further and borrow the kitchen digital scales (loosely wrap them in clingwrap.) which is why I didnt make my example based on epoxy, even though it sets more slowly.Yep, I'd recommend scales for epoxy. Mess that up and much heat will ensue :D Kitchen scales are cheap as chips now, something from the warehouse will suffice fine :)

[fLaThEaD FreD]

If anyone wants any imfo on carbon, or anything else to do with resins and composites, they can call me next week. tollfree on 0800 80 3001 at Nuplex Industries and I will e-mail them all the HOW TO DO IT sheets etc.
I'm currentley on sick leave after having a plate put on my collarbone but will return to work next Monday.
Or you can e-mail me with your details at peterc@nuplex.co.nz and I will reply then...cheers Peter

[flyingbrick]

earlier in the thread someone mentions $400 for a vac pump. I have seen an old fridge compressor used for this purpose. Is there any reason why this is not a good idea?

[Ocean1]

No reason at all a'tall.

Fridge compressor, washing machine motor, the Kiwi way.

Best consider what the resin solvents might do to the pump though. Pay to fit a vacuum resevoir between the sucky thing and the mould, couple of litres with a lid big enough to clean inside.

[CookMySock]

Fridge compressor, washing machine motor, the Kiwi way.You can, but the compressor will overheat, run out of oil, suck down way too hard etc.

If you use a pressure switch to regulate it, then it will cycle on and off moving the layup and probably borking it.

You MIGHT be able to use a vacuum pump, reciever, and vac regulator, and that might keep things constant without cycling the layup pressure to much.

Maybe an automotive airco compressor.


DB

[Ocean1]

You can, but the compressor will overheat, run out of oil, suck down way too hard etc.

If you use a pressure switch to regulate it, then it will cycle on and off moving the layup and probably borking it.

You MIGHT be able to use a vacuum pump, reciever, and vac regulator, and that might keep things constant without cycling the layup pressure to much.

Maybe an automotive airco compressor.


DB

Meh.

Wee flow control valve on the reservoir, controled leak, cools compressor too.

Want to experiment with req'd suction, apart from that what's to lose?

[imdying]

You can, but the compressor will overheatNaw, you're not running it hard.

run out of oilNaw, in fact you'll need to remove a little from it before you can use it.

suck down way too hard etc.Naw, more likely now hard enough.

If you use a pressure switch to regulate it, then it will cycle on and off moving the layup and probably borking it.Naw, but you'd use a trap in any case.

[flyingbrick]

OK well i did some research just incase anyone is interested.
http://www.dream-models.com/eco/vacuumpump.html
http://www.paragoncode.com/shop/vacuum_pump/
http://www.badger.rchomepage.com/vacbag.html
http://www.belljar.net/refrig.htm

im going to try grab one soon for a play.

[birdhandler]

Fridge compressor, washing machine motor, the Kiwi way.

Best consider what the resin solvents might do to the pump though. Pay to fit a vacuum resevoir between the sucky thing and the mould, couple of litres with a lid big enough to clean inside


Is there any reason you could not just use a vacuum cleaner apart from spousal disapproval ?

[Ocean1]

Is there any reason you could not just use a vacuum cleaner apart from spousal disapproval ?

Yes. The motor in a vacuum cleaner is... not safe in close proximity to flamable vapours. Can't remember what the LEL is for the solvents involved, but there's a reasonable chance the gas flow through the pump will drop into that range at some point during the pull-down. The motor would almost certainly ignite it when that happens, seen it happen on an industrial scale, major bang.

Besides, spousal approval don't come that clearly defined. "Fine" usually don't mean what you think it does...

[imdying]

So I found a rotary compressor from a fridge, works a treat... pulls nearly as good a vacuum as the real deal (vacuum pump). The difference between the two is insignificant in this application (i.e. pulls down to over 29", it's only microns worth of difference we're talking about). Also have a vac switch to turn it on and off, a thermostat to turn the oven and venting on and off. Experimented with a couple of techniques found a few things that improved surfacing and reduce bridging. Also tried the Duratec surfacing primer for finishign plugs with... magic stuff, worth every cent.

[skydog]

http://www.webbikeworld.com/t2/carbon-fiber-motorcycle-parts/

Found this very interesting link.... pretty much explains the process step by step... hope it is of interest....

other great stuff there too... gotta love the internet!!

regards
Ian

[imdying]

That's an overlay.

[gixxer-king]

Without being able to ride my bike and no commitments, I've got a fair bit of time on my hands now and am considering giving Carbon Fibre fabricating a bit of a nudge. I remember watching a YouTube video on how to do it (maybe before my accident not sure) and it does look a little involved but I was wondering what you guys thought.


Had a go and found it too difficult?
Materials just too expensive/hard to obtain?
Have a garage to do this in, but not a huge amount of space... problem?
Watch more YouTube vids to learn how, or maybe a book?


Thought I would start with something simple like some heal-guards, ultimately nothing more serious than a hugger, or front-guard I think.

Thoughts?

would also be keen if someone in welly has experiance and wants to teach a noob. I may come in handy should your arms get ripped off!

[gav]

http://www.bayarearidersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=145975&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

All ya need to know right here! :Punk:

[imdying]

Repost....