Has New Zealand gone soft?

[FROSTY]

I had a scarey conversation with baby bikie last night.
We were talking about the Limpics. I asked him if he knew what the most important thing he needed to be a real winnner.
he came up with good food and exersize as being important.
I told him no The most important thing was the desire,the need to win was most important.
He really struggled with that concept.

It seems just doing your best is really being drummed into our kids by teachers.
Winning isn't important.
Am I just cynical or are we teaching our kids to take the easy option?

[Ixion]

When that one Great Scorer comes to mark against your name,
He'll ask, not whether you won or lost,But how you played the game

[Mully]

Exactly right, Frosty. This country has been heading down this path for some time.

Everyone gets rewarded - there is no additional benefit to winning.

Seems to me to be a bad idea long term. We will have no John Britten's prepared to take a chance on a crazy idea.

[svr]

I know what you're saying Frosty, but to be world class there is the small issue of `learning' (= training)
Given good genes do something to which you are genetically suited for 10 years / 10,000 hours and all else being equal you will be able to compete at a world level.

[Flatcap]

It seems just doing your best is really being drummed into our kids by teachers.
Winning isn't important.
Am I just cynical or are we teaching our kids to take the easy option?

This is true. Having winners means having losers. This is bad for the losers self esteem.

We must bring winners down to the level of mediocrity to avoid hurting anyones feelings

[Bikernereid]

Yes. Over here teachers are teaching kids that everyone is equal. That is complete and utter BS. No everyone isn't equal and that kind of attitude will not help our kids when they get into the adult world and have to compete against others for jobs etc. I think the sooner we stop wrapping kids up in cotton woll and help then to understand that life isn't always nice, that everyone is unique and different and that no everyone is not equal then the better chance they will have in life. In my humble opinion.

[blacksheep]

When that one Great Scorer comes to mark against your name,
He'll ask, not whether you won or lost,But how you played the game

should be more of this attitude imho:first:

[FROSTY]

I know what you're saying Frosty, but to be world class there is the small issue of `learning' (= training)
Given good genes do something to which you are genetically suited for 10 years / 10,000 hours and all else being equal you will be able to compete at a world level.
No arguments here re training. But Im seeing kids giving up because its become "too hard"

[avgas]

could be worse - we could be like China where 99.9% are failures and the rest achieved victory......needless to say its very depressing

[Dave Lobster]

This is true. Having winners means having losers. This is bad for the losers self esteem.

We must bring winners down to the level of mediocrity to avoid hurting anyones feelings

If we don't have any losers, who'd join gangs?

[MVnut]

I think you have a good point there Frosty, at least some youngsters have the right attitude. My 12 year old daughter says "I will probably be an archaeologist, if I have enough time....being world champ and all" ....she certainly has the desire.

[FROSTY]

If we don't have any losers, who'd join gangs?
Lets not even go there dude.I've seen these teen gangs at work and it aint pretty.

[FROSTY]

I think you have a good point there Frosty, at least some youngsters have the right attitude. My 12 year old daughter says "I will probably be an archaeologist, if I have enough time....being world champ and all" ....she certainly has the desire.
well the archeology can be her fall back career once shes acheived greatness :innocent:

[Flatcap]

If we don't have any losers, who'd join gangs?

They're not losers - we have failed they as a community.....


......nah you're right, they're losers

[Winston001]

I told him no The most important thing was the desire,the need to win was most important.
He really struggled with that concept.


You are right - but I don't think it is something which can be taught, because the drive, the desire comes from within. Its a matter of personality coupled with good coaching. Passion.

Let me tell you a story. My daughter, 14 now, has/had the potential to be an international gymnast. At age 6 she was bloody good, and from age 8 - 12 nationally ranked. On her day over those years she was in the top 5 in the country and retired winning third at the National Gymn Champs - at age 12.

I had dreams of Commonwealth Games, trips to Australia, Europe..... :soon:

But. But. Love her as I do, I knew she did not have the killer edge to be the best. Blisters, sore ankles, wrists, etc etc, there was always something and she knew all the phyisios really well. She would not push through the pain barrier to fight for peak condition - and we didn't push her. Rather have a happy daughter than a miserable top athlete. No regrets.

So I don't think we are soft, its just a special talent which only a few people have that allows them to achieve.


Incidentally, womens gymnastics on TV right now.

[pete376403]

Real winners Chinese style - sports agencies seek out small children who look like they may have potential. They go into state funded sporting academies where they are 'developed" for a particular discipline, with very little emphasis on anything else. Children who fail to "make the cut" are ruthlessly weeded out. They get dumped, and having had virtually no education in anything other then their selected sport, they are effectively unemployable.
The ones who do perform are groomed further for sporting prowess, and compete until such time as they no longer are winners. At that point they also get dumped. Apparently every Chinese olympic medal has cost the country several million dollars.
Sounds like a real good scheme and one NZ should aspire to. (Tui)

[Her_C4]

........ I told him no The most important thing was the desire,the need to win was most important.
He really struggled with that concept.

It seems just doing your best is really being drummed into our kids by teachers.
Winning isn't important.
Am I just cynical or are we teaching our kids to take the easy option?

errrrm the teachers? The grounding of these concepts comes from home - not school. Where is the parents responsibility? Why is this the first time that you have had this conversation with baby bikie??:msn-wink::doh:

[McJim]

If you want to be the best of the best of the best you need a better masking agent than the last guy coz ALL the top athletes must be doping by now. The world records couldn't be beaten otherwise :Pokey:

Anyway - it's not the winning that counts, it's the taking apart of the opposition.

[Motu]

I've never had the desire to win or be the best at anything....gosh,maybe I'll never amount to anything....should I end it all now? Just do what you want to do,enjoy the view along the way.

[JimO]

No arguments here re training. But Im seeing kids giving up because its become "too hard"

well my boys have a win at all costs attitude, both play rep hockey,school 1st 11 hockey, club hockey, senior soccer, go hard out all the time not rough play but hard full on 100% dont give up attitude.

[98tls]

Off topic maybe but reading this thread reminded me of my early years at Medbury in Ch-Ch which was a prep school etc.For me anyway it was a great place to be as i was pretty good (for a 7 year old) at rugby/cricket ,as i was a border sport was what you did everyday when class was over.I can vividly remember the poor buggers that had no sporting skills,looking back it was pretty damn cruel what went on,many memories of one or another teacher screaming at some fat kid,oddly enough the school motto was "play the game".:oi-grr:

[Trudes]

I was never encouraged to do anything as a kid, in fact I believe that I was actually discouraged from getting involved in "extracurricular" activities because my parents didn't have time to take me to practices/meets/shows etc, so hence I had no interests as a kid apart from horses (which was discouraged also until I was old enough to sort out getting rides to and from horsey things I wanted to go to), and was never any good at anything and have no competitive drive although I do like to participate.
Anyway, what is my point? If the kid shows an interest in something they should be given the opportunity to decide how far they want to take it (within reason) with encouragement and help from their folks. It's important for kids to participate in all sorts of things and realise that you can't win them all, but it's good to try and to be a good sport.

[Flatcap]

Off topic maybe but reading this thread reminded me of my early years at Medbury in Ch-Ch which was a prep school etc.For me anyway it was a great place to be as i was pretty good (for a 7 year old) at rugby/cricket ,as i was a border sport was what you did everyday when class was over.I can vividly remember the poor buggers that had no sporting skills,looking back it was pretty damn cruel what went on,many memories of one or another teacher screaming at some fat kid,oddly enough the school motto was "play the game".:oi-grr:

That's terrible! The teachers should have made you all play at the level of the fat bastard to grow his self esteem!!!!

[McJim]

The whole "Drive to succeed om the sportsfield" has made me a bitter and twisted fucker in many ways. I was always the smallest kid in the year until I was about 14 (by which time everyone had decided who was good and bad at sports) Then I grew about 6 inches in one summer and bacame useful at long distance running, rugby, cycling, triathlon etc. to the point where I started to get picked for stuff (best achivement was winning a triathlon for under eighteens when I was 14 years old). Then one day I woke up, remembered what a bunch od c*nts they had been to me when I was no use and told them to shove it and took up music instead. I'm actually quite a useful trumpet player now.

[jafar]

The whole "Drive to succeed om the sportsfield" has made me a bitter and twisted fucker in many ways. I'm actually quite a useful trumpet player now.

I'm sorry , your point was ???????

[Trudes]

I'm sorry , your point was ???????
Kids are cruel and he likes to play with his horn to make him feel better.

[Dave Lobster]

I'm sorry , your point was ???????

People who are good at sport are c*nts. :)

[MadDuck]

Kids are cruel and he likes to play with his horn to make him feel better.

In a dark closet

[svr]

Epic story McJim, i cried, i laughed, etc...

Anyways the point is that to `build' a champion athlete in todays world is not `the honest hard work and attitude' type image that the olympics try to portray. Its the sacrifice of the normal development of many, many kids.

Sacrificing everyones fun in PE from age 5-15 just so one little johnny gets to top 5 in NZ probably aint worth it...
Better off with everyone enjoying sport and learning that life is good?

[avgas]

where have all the heroes gone?
that is the real question at the matter here.
think about who you wanted to be when you were young - who were the people you aspired to?
All we have these days are overpaid rugby/rowing whiners.
Yet the king brothers, the Millen family......and countless others who are great kiwis get how much press time?
We are even top of the world for computer games - ahead of China, Japan, Korea and USA....all of whome pay their competitors.
Allot more than bodies were buried with Sir Peter Blake, Sir Edmund Hilary and John Britten

[Meekey_Mouse]

I think it's very important that the help from the parents is there... But just at the same time that the parents don't give the kid every thing.

My parents encouraged me 100% in horse riding, but I knew if I EVER threw a hissy fit like some of the other kids, the gear and horse would be packed up before I knew it and we'd be on our way home. Taught me that if I wanted to get any where, I had to be determined and do it myself.. I'd get up at 4AM for shows, put the kettle on for mum, plait the horse, load the gear, put the horse float on, go back inside and get mum outta bed with coffee ready to go... From when I was 13yrs old :laugh:

[Skyryder]

While I acknowledge that the will to win is important for some it is not for all. Those that believe that winning is the be all to end all fail to understand there are no winners without losers


Skyryder

[Ixion]

Civilised society is marked by cooperation, not competition.

[MadDuck]

Civilised society is marked by cooperation, not competition.

What bollocks !

[Skyryder]

Civilised society is marked by cooperation, not competition.

Absolutley. The nature of man is that of one who need to live in a society where the indaviduals co-operate with each other to the betterment of the society.


Skyryder

[MadDuck]

A society that lives on co-operation and no competition would signify a society throwing flowers around and hugging each other. Maybe you need to head back to the hippy days of the 60's.

A healthy society has people that are willing to challenge and ask questions, take on a challenge and win or lose, learn to spell and be educated, succeed when others cant be arsed getting off their butts to do anything useful to add to that society.

We have lost that. You participate you get a pretty little certificate even if you came last....wtf!

[Skyryder]

What bollocks !

Mankind is not equiped as a solo gather/hunter. His success has been developed with the principles of co-operation within the family unit, tribe, clan and nation. The slow progress of technical development has been acheived with co-operation. Competition may improve an idea after development but competition does not invent. Co-operation does. That may be in the way of finance, technical support, etc.

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

A society that lives on co-operation and no competition would signify a society throwing flowers around and hugging each other.


I fail to see the releveance of hugging and throwing flowers at each other as a sign of co-operation.........love yes. :love:

Societies co-operate. That's how they function. Some laws are enforced to ensure that co-operation. Road rules would be one that comes to mind. We need to co-operate with other road users. Imagine the roads if competition:was to occur.

Skyryder

[Bikernereid]

I think it's very important that the help from the parents is there... But just at the same time that the parents don't give the kid every thing.

My parents encouraged me 100% in horse riding, but I knew if I EVER threw a hissy fit like some of the other kids, the gear and horse would be packed up before I knew it and we'd be on our way home. Taught me that if I wanted to get any where, I had to be determined and do it myself.. I'd get up at 4AM for shows, put the kettle on for mum, plait the horse, load the gear, put the horse float on, go back inside and get mum outta bed with coffee ready to go... From when I was 13yrs old :laugh:

+1. I was very lucky that my folks trapsed me round for music lessons, athletics comps etc. I was always encouraged to have a go and to try my best. Luckily I came from sporty and competitive parents who also were sensible enough to explain that noone can be excellent at everything and that team participation is also extremely worthwhile. I also benefitted a lot from a very supportive school sports teacher who was a very positive influence.

I am still extremely competitive and I think it is a good trait which has also fostered a get off your arse and go for it attitude which seems to be lacking in a lot of the youth today. So many kids seem to think that they are entitled to everything without having to earn it or work towards it. I think that the PC brigade and the politicians have a hell of a lot to answer to regarding the state of a large majority of todays youth.

[rustycharm]

This is true. Having winners means having losers. This is bad for the losers self esteem.
We must bring winners down to the level of mediocrity to avoid hurting anyones feelings

Nice ... that could be a labour election billboard

[Winston001]

Civilised society is marked by cooperation, not competition.

Say whut?? Ah...ok....a sound bite for fellow travellers. :clap:


Absolutely. The nature of man is that of one who need to live in a society where the indaviduals co-operate with each other to the betterment of the society.
Skyryder

Oh puleeesse. :D

Primarily man is selfish and out for himself. That is how any creature survives - look after number one.

However, one way of looking after yourself is to come to an agreement with others to work together. That way the sabretooth has a tougher time when he's feeling a bit peckish.

This co-operation is useful, enjoyed for its benefits, but it is born out of self-interest. Within the group, there are additional benefits. Trading your skills for work by others benefits everyone. If you are good enough at it, you'll find a margin where the total benefit for you is greater than the individual benefit to others. Bigger cave, more food, less work - that is exactly what any of us are trying to do daily.


All of which does not explain Goldwings. :buggerd:

[awayatc]

Civilised society is marked by cooperation, not competition.

Every society has leaders, who want the rest to obey and follow and serve.
Nanna state has taken it upon itself to be the allknowing and allmighty leader.....and consequently breeds a generation of mediocre servants....

It's in our nature to compete, be better, faster, first, smarter, prettier.....
Scary to see that people believe we should just vegetate somewhere in the unseen and unheard "middle".....

I want to be in front...and hope my kids want to overtake me.....

I have failed as a parent if they turn out meek sheep...

:scooter:

[Trudes]

Reading this reinforces for me why we have different political parties with variations of political ideaologies..... some social democratic views, conservative views, liberal views and some socialist views, it's what makes the world go round, awesome!:2thumbsup
Anyway, I reckon you can't win 'em all, but as long as you win sometimes and are good at something that gives you some satisfaction, then what more could you ask for?

[Grahameeboy]

No arguments here re training. But Im seeing kids giving up because its become "too hard"

Look at it inwardly.....if Kids are being trained to win and the don't...because the reality is that not everyone can be winners...then you will get the same effect i.e. "Too Hard"...peer pressure and all that.

Better to be a participant than not all all.

I have played a load of sports in my time, represented my County...played minor league football...I just enjoyed being a part of it..winning was great but losing was still fun...the important thing was I was taking part...I was a winner

[Grahameeboy]

Every society has leaders, who want the rest to obey and follow and serve.
Nanna state has taken it upon itself to be the allknowing and allmighty leader.....and consequently breeds a generation of mediocre servants....

It's in our nature to compete, be better, faster, first, smarter, prettier.....
Scary to see that people believe we should just vegetate somewhere in the unseen and unheard "middle".....

I want to be in front...and hope my kids want to overtake me.....

I have failed as a parent if they turn out meek sheep...

:scooter:

Do you really think so?

[Grahameeboy]

A society that lives on co-operation and no competition would signify a society throwing flowers around and hugging each other. Maybe you need to head back to the hippy days of the 60's.

A healthy society has people that are willing to challenge and ask questions, take on a challenge and win or lose, learn to spell and be educated, succeed when others cant be arsed getting off their butts to do anything useful to add to that society.

We have lost that. You participate you get a pretty little certificate even if you came last....wtf!

I guess you have to look at what "winning" really means..does it really mean coming first?

[Wingnut]

There is nothing wrong with a bit of healthy competition at all.

If you cant take the heat - get out of the fire.

Competition is the rivalry between individuals (or groups or nations) for territory or resources. It arises whenever two or more parties strive for something that all cannot obtain i.e., the rivalry of two or more parties over something. Competition occurs naturally between living organisms which coexist in the same environment. For example, animals compete over water supplies, food, and mates. In addition, humans compete for attention, wealth, prestige, and fame.

Competition can be remote, as in a free throw contest, or antagonistic, as in a standard basketball game. These contests are similar, but in the first one players are isolated from each other, while in the second one they are able to interfere with the performance of their competitors.

Competition gives incentives for self improvement. If two watchmakers are competing for business, they will lower their prices and improve their products to increase their sales. If birds compete for a limited water supply during a drought, the more suited birds will survive to reproduce and improve the population.


Go Wikipedia!!!

[Grahameeboy]

Is this really "too soft"..recognise this...I win I win!!

This was for your KIDS to get a taste of what it's like to ride a Trail bike/Quad in a safe controlled environment
:Punk::Punk:thank you everybody that came along and helped make it a fantastic day
SPECIAL thanks to
Gazzer--for setting up the track tapes at short notice
Grantman --for the fantastic little books for the kids
Littlejohn- for the barby,tent and mechanicing
Oldguy--for loaning a virtual stranger two bikes
MillarsCarCentre -for sponsoring the whole event- food,loan bikes,drink and venue:Punk::Punk:

[Grahameeboy]

There is nothing wrong with a bit of healthy competition at all.

If you cant take the heat - get out of the fire.

Competition is the rivalry between individuals (or groups or nations) for territory or resources. It arises whenever two or more parties strive for something that all cannot obtain i.e., the rivalry of two or more parties over something. Competition occurs naturally between living organisms which coexist in the same environment. For example, animals compete over water supplies, food, and mates. In addition, humans compete for attention, wealth, prestige, and fame.

Competition can be remote, as in a free throw contest, or antagonistic, as in a standard basketball game. These contests are similar, but in the first one players are isolated from each other, while in the second one they are able to interfere with the performance of their competitors.

Competition gives incentives for self improvement. If two watchmakers are competing for business, they will lower their prices and improve their products to increase their sales. If birds compete for a limited water supply during a drought, the more suited birds will survive to reproduce and improve the population.


Go Wikipedia!!!

Go Wingnutipedia

Healthy is the key

[portokiwi]

:( I know in Christchurch the schools promote its not winning its fair play they say you are not there to win but to enjoy.... Such BS.
I was coaching school teams. My approch was to win first train hard, play hard but fair.
when we won we reached that objective if we lost we lose nicely.
But only then.
It was very hard as the teachers thought I was being to hard on the kids.
Its a shame but thats the new zealand way of life here.

[Trudes]

Healthy is the key

Exactly, healthy competition is good, makes you a better person to have to try your best to do something and try to be the best, but it gets unhealthy when you only compete to win and can't see what you have gotten out of the game when you don't win.:bash:

[Grahameeboy]

:( I know in Christchurch the schools promote its not winning its fair play they say you are not there to win but to enjoy.... Such BS.
I was coaching school teams. My approch was to win first train hard, play hard but fair.
when we won we reached that objective if we lost we lose nicely.
But only then.
It was very hard as the teachers thought I was being to hard on the kids.
Its a shame but thats the new zealand way of life here.

I love it...:apint:

I have to say that I go for the enjoying...often this makes you a winner.

Give you a simple example:

Use to turn up to Sunday free squash where everyone just plays eachother in an afternoon.

I was a g ood player but just not serious...would often beat the top league players because they lost getting upset with themselves because they were not winning...I didn't care, just enjoyed playing and won....didn't help that I can play with both hands of course but hell I had fun and won sometimes...

[Grahameeboy]

Exactly, healthy competition is good, makes you a better person to have to try your best to do something and try to be the best, but it gets unhealthy when you only compete to win and can't see what you have gotten out of the game when you don't win.:bash:

Thats excactly trude....I mean true

[portokiwi]

But thats the problem with the schools. They are not promoting to win but to have fun. They say we dont care if you dont win?????
Where is the sporting attude in that?
Try to win but have fun doing it.

[Grahameeboy]

But thats the problem with the schools. They are not promoting to win but to have fun. They say we dont care if you dont win?????
Where is the sporting attude in that?
Try to win but have fun doing it.

Remember "Grasshopper" it is the journey not the destination....

[portokiwi]

Remember Grasshopper when your eyes are like mine..... Yes Master:2thumbsup

[Grahameeboy]

Remember Grasshopper when your eyes are like mine..... Yes Master:2thumbsup

Frisky from the sounds of it......

[FROSTY]

Is this really "too soft"..recognise this...I win I win!!

This was for your KIDS to get a taste of what it's like to ride a Trail bike/Quad in a safe controlled environment
:Punk:thank you everybody that came along and helped make it a fantastic day
SPECIAL thanks to :Punk:
Gazzer--for setting up the track tapes at short notice
Grantman --for the fantastic little books for the kids
Littlejohn- for the barby,tent and mechanicing
Oldguy--for loaning a virtual stranger two bikes
MillarsCarCentre -for sponsoring the whole event- food,loan bikes,drink and venue:Punk::Punk:
What on earth has this got to do with competing and winning?
seriously dude?

[Grahameeboy]

What on earth has this got to do with competing and winning?
seriously dude?

Nothing...that was my point...particpation is the key

[FROSTY]

errrrm the teachers? The grounding of these concepts comes from home - not school. Where is the parents responsibility? Why is this the first time that you have had this conversation with baby bikie??:msn-wink::doh:
Its not the first time but when he was younger he seemed to get the concept.
I guess its a case of -well Dad says and shows me this way. but all the teachers at school are saying /doing the oposite.
The mindset frightens me. and I've noticed it more and more in the 15-20year olds. Its become --Ohh I want it all I want it now and if I can't have it I'll throw a tanty. But if its too hard to acheive I'll just give up
Sport at the moment is a reflection of this I feel.

[DMNTD]

Real winners Chinese style - sports agencies seek out small children who look like they may have potential. They go into state funded sporting academies where they are 'developed" for a particular discipline, with very little emphasis on anything else. Children who fail to "make the cut" are ruthlessly weeded out. They get dumped, and having had virtually no education in anything other then their selected sport, they are effectively unemployable.
The ones who do perform are groomed further for sporting prowess, and compete until such time as they no longer are winners. At that point they also get dumped. Apparently every Chinese Olympic medal has cost the country several million dollars.
Sounds like a real good scheme and one NZ should aspire to. (Tui)

Tui?? I think not IMO. It's pretty much the way of the work force too. Keep getting better at your job or someone else will do it for you.

[Grahameeboy]

Its not the first time but when he was younger he seemed to get the concept.
I guess its a case of -well Dad says and shows me this way. but all the teachers at school are saying /doing the oposite.
The mindset frightens me. and I've noticed it more and more in the 15-20year olds. Its become --Ohh I want it all I want it now and if I can't have it I'll throw a tanty. But if its too hard to acheive I'll just give up
Sport at the moment is a reflection of this I feel.

Nats plays football and she doesn't have a cats chance of making the 1st grade....but she still wants to play and the school encourage it...

[Grahameeboy]

Tui?? I think not IMO. It's pretty much the way of the work force too. Keep getting better at your job or someone else will do it for you.

Can I have your job please....

[FROSTY]

Nothing...that was my point...particpation is the key3
Im not disagreeing that at step 1 just getting them trying it is important.--er uvverwise I wouldn't have bovvered
But from that point on --from there the desire to win is important

[DMNTD]

Complacency and acceptance scares the fark out of me :oi-grr:

[DMNTD]

Can I have your job please....

If you can do my job better than me...yes :cool:

[Grahameeboy]

Complacency and acceptance scares the fark out of me :oi-grr:

Like slow speeds you mean:rolleyes:

[FROSTY]

Tui?? I think not IMO. It's pretty much the way of the work force too. Keep getting better at your job or someone else will do it for you.
Dude you dont work in local gubbinment. There the way to get a payrise and get priomoted is to be demonstrably INcompintent. --the worse you are the higher you go

[Grahameeboy]

If you can do my job better than me...yes :cool:

Okay..you WIN....I think I am getting the concept...

[DMNTD]

Dude you dont work in local gubbinment. There the way to get a payrise and get priomoted is to be demonstrably INcompintent. --the worse you are the higher you go

Yeah but I was referring to the work FORCE...not farce :sunny:

[MSTRS]

Interesting thread....
My take is that life is a competition, with winners and losers. On many levels.
Sports, where one person/team is pitted against another, is just civilised war. You don't 'participate' in war. You win (live) or lose (die). Did our boys (and girls) call out to Hitler that it wasn't about winning, but taking part?
The defence rests....

[Firefight]

Interesting thread....
My take is that life is a competition, with winners and losers. On many levels.
Sports, where one person/team is pitted against another, is just civilised war. You don't 'participate' in war. You win (live) or lose (die). Did our boys (and girls) call out to Hitler that it wasn't about winning, but taking part?
The defence rests....



totally agree, dam good point !!!!! rep well earnt




F/F

[portokiwi]

Ohhh That is SOOOOOOOO Good.:first:

[eurodick]

Womans?? Gymn hmmmmmmmmmmm all the WOMAN I know are older than 12!! Yeha wait till we have MX as an Olympics sport ahhahahhah should just be track and field or at least just individual sports.. then maybe we might be able to afford to hold it here??? Even Nen Zud can do CGI opening ceremonies, with some ugly kids voice dubbed over for some pretty little kid to sing....:whocares:
But look I digress!!! Yes second place is first loser and Second is what Helen will be come election time.... second is good, look at war we won Germany got second, Japan got bronze yay thanks for participating!!! The point is who cares!!! We need Allblacks who eat raw meat and are prepared to kill for our glory because from my vantage point on the couch after a hard days ride they all look a bit soft to me... yeah they might be bulked up but in the immortal words of Jake the Muss " to many weights not enough speed work" hope they can do the deal tonight!!! I'll be sleeping cos some of us have to actually go and race tomorrow.:devil2::devil2::devil2:

[FROSTY]

Interesting thread....
My take is that life is a competition, with winners and losers. On many levels.
Sports, where one person/team is pitted against another, is just civilised war. You don't 'participate' in war. You win (live) or lose (die). Did our boys (and girls) call out to Hitler that it wasn't about winning, but taking part?
The defence rests....
BINGO matey.

[McJim]

Interesting thread....
My take is that life is a competition, with winners and losers. On many levels.
Sports, where one person/team is pitted against another, is just civilised war. You don't 'participate' in war. You win (live) or lose (die). Did our boys (and girls) call out to Hitler that it wasn't about winning, but taking part?
The defence rests....
So essentially if we don't win gold at the olympics they're gonna gas us? Interesting analogy but not entirely appropriate. The price of top level sports success is not, in my opinion worth it. The destruction of self worth for those that who do not excel at sports is quite horrific when balanced against the true lack of value of sporting achievement. Kids weilding guns in US high schools, teenage suicides etc. Of course many of these can be attributed to other social factors however I believe the whole success on the sports field (and lack of therein) can contribute to a lack of self worth.

A lot of this opinion derives from the culture of where I grew up. This is probably why Scotland never figures greatly in the sports history books but rather excels in the world of invention.

In brief - by all means reward winners but don't punish losers.

[Maha]

I always come last...........:crybaby:
Oh hang on......sometimes thats a good thing yes?.....:2thumbsup

[McJim]

I always come last...........:crybaby:
Oh hang on......sometimes thats a good thing yes?.....:2thumbsup

It would certainly go some way toward explaining Mom's cheery disposition ...yes :yes:

[awayatc]

As long as you come home..........
:scooter:

[awayatc]

Problem is not aiming high and missing.....


Problem is aiming low and hitting your target.....

[yungatart]

Not all of us are going to win in the sports arena..and I feel it is important that those who want to participate, are encouraged and allowed to. Heaven help us if only our elite could play primary/secondary school sport....

But, we need to look after our elite/up-and-coming sports people better.

The tall poppy system is alive and well and rears its ugly head too often in NZ. Kids are scorned for being achievers and put down for having lofty goals.

That is what we need to change!

[MSTRS]

.....
In brief - by all means reward winners but don't punish losers.

Of course. Goes without saying. 'We' have moved on from the practice of executing the losers on the battlefield. Mostly.

[MSTRS]

Mankind is not equiped as a solo gather/hunter. His success has been developed with the principles of co-operation within the family unit, tribe, clan and nation. The slow progress of technical development has been acheived with co-operation. Competition may improve an idea after development but competition does not invent. Co-operation does. That may be in the way of finance, technical support, etc.

Skyryder

Nope - necessity does.
You are looking at too narrow a picture with your co-operation analogy. At that level, you are right...but this family, tribe, village, nation IS vying against that one

[Big Dave]

Day 8: You're still equal with Canada. :whistle:

[Big Dave]

Another option:
New Zealand first sent athletes to the Olympics in 1908. New Zealand and Australia combined their athletes into a team called Australasia for the 1908 and 1912 Games.

[DMNTD]

Problem is not aiming high and missing.....

Problem is aiming low and hitting your target.....

100% agreed :cool:

[Big Dave]

It would certainly go some way toward explaining Mom's cheery disposition ...yes :yes:

Day 8: NZ and Scotland neck and neck.

[MSTRS]

Day 8: NZ and Scotland neck and neck.

Och noooo - ye've kilt the thread....

[portokiwi]

:2thumbsup Tonights the night We are going to win GOLD:2thumbsup

[Ixion]

Interesting thread....
My take is that life is a competition, with winners and losers. On many levels.
Sports, where one person/team is pitted against another, is just civilised war. You don't 'participate' in war. You win (live) or lose (die). Did our boys (and girls) call out to Hitler that it wasn't about winning, but taking part?
The defence rests....

The prosecution responds by pointing out that Dunkirk is one of our more respected battle honours. We lost. And Culloden one of the more despised. Cumberland won.

Oh, yes. And remember the Alamo. Some may also remember HMS Jervis Bay. The VC citation read "Valour in challenging hopeless odds and giving his life to save the many ships it was his duty to protect". Not the first time our highest award has gone to a loser.

[Swoop]

Did our boys (and girls) call out to Hitler that it wasn't about winning, but taking part?
The NAZI's didn't lose. They came second.

Good post mate!

New Zealand first sent athletes to the Olympics in 1908.
Wnston Peters' party was around waaaay back then???:shit:

[MSTRS]

The prosecution responds by pointing out that Dunkirk is one of our more respected battle honours. We lost. And Culloden one of the more despised. Cumberland won.

Oh, yes. And remember the Alamo. Some may also remember HMS Jervis Bay. The VC citation read "Valour in challenging hopeless odds and giving his life to save the many ships it was his duty to protect". Not the first time our highest award has gone to a loser.

Ah, but you see it's not always the winner that is feted. We know that. Does anyone remember the winners in that car race where one driver pushed his out of gas car across the line to record a finish. Some losers are winners by default, because they did more than just 'participate'.

[Grahameeboy]

Ah, but you see it's not always the winner that is feted. We know that. Does anyone remember the winners in that car race where one driver pushed his out of gas car across the line to record a finish. Some losers are winners by default, because they did more than just 'participate'.

We are all winners....

[mangell6]

"I told him no The most important thing was the desire,the need to win was most important."

Now that there has been a lot of discussion on the second part of Frostys' statement, anyone want to discuss the "MOST IMPORTANT THING"

BTW that was "Desire"

If an individual wants anything they have to desire it, if the desire is strong enough then the individual will do anything to achieve their desired goal. If that goal is to WIN (by what ever means) then . . . . . . .

[FJRider]

"I told him no The most important thing was the desire,the need to win was most important."

Now that there has been a lot of discussion on the second part of Frostys' statement, anyone want to discuss the "MOST IMPORTANT THING"

BTW that was "Desire"

If an individual wants anything they have to desire it, if the desire is strong enough then the individual will do anything to achieve their desired goal. If that goal is to WIN (by what ever means) then . . . . . . .

"Desire to win" is in all who compete, at any level, in any competition. This "desire to win", is usually overwhelmed, by the risk of "desire not to lose".

[FROSTY]

I guess Im a couple of generations behind the "times"
If I wanted anything in life I had to work for it.
I learned at a pretty early age that if I wanted anything badly enough I would find a way to get/do it.

[mangell6]

Exactly.

:yes:

[Big Dave]

If at first you don't succeed - so much for skydiving.

[scumdog]

I guess Im a couple of generations behind the "times"
If I wanted anything in life I had to work for it.
I learned at a pretty early age that if I wanted anything badly enough I would find a way to get/do it.

So, so true.

Determination and ingenuity have got me most of what I have.

(except the bad breath and gimpy knee..)

[MSTRS]

We are all winners....

No. We have to have done something outstanding (at least, for that person) to deserve the title 'winner'.

[Grahameeboy]

No. We have to have done something outstanding (at least, for that person) to deserve the title 'winner'.

Nope, still think we are all winners...:sunny:

[MSTRS]

That's just muddled thinking, g'boy. :blink:

[Grahameeboy]

That's just muddled thinking, g'boy. :blink:

Muddled or not it works for me...:sunny:

[FROSTY]

Nope, still think we are all winners...:sunny:
Try this one dude. we ALL have the POTENTIAL to be winners.
Weather or not we act on that potential is entirely in our own hands

[Grahameeboy]

Try this one dude. we ALL have the POTENTIAL to be winners.
Weather or not we act on that potential is entirely in our own hands

Doesn't work for me...sorry....I know I am odd but hey ho

[MSTRS]

Try this one dude. we ALL have the POTENTIAL to be winners.
Weather or not we act on that potential is entirely in our own hands
Exactly

Doesn't work for me...sorry....I know I am odd but hey ho

Now that I'll agree with:rolleyes:

[Grahameeboy]

Exactly


Now that I'll agree with:rolleyes:

So we are in agreement....cool....

[FROSTY]

Doesn't work for me...sorry....I know I am odd but hey ho
well I spose you do ride a SV thou :innocent:

[scumdog]

Nope, still think we are all winners...:sunny:

Hmmmm, soooo....what does it take to be descrbed as a loser then??:blink:

[Grahameeboy]

well I spose you do ride a SV thou :innocent:

What do you ride...mmm...mmm....it's on the tip of my tougue...okay I give up...lol

[Grahameeboy]

Hmmmm, soooo....what does it take to be descrbed as a loser then??:blink:

That's easy, there are none silly if we are all winners....

[FROSTY]

What do you ride...mmm...mmm....it's on the tip of my tougue...okay I give up...lol
It changes daily --or ya could say I change bikes more often than some change underwear.
--GWAN say it---Frosty rides a LIFAN :Punk:

[MSTRS]

So we are in agreement....cool....


That's easy, there are none silly if we are all winners....

Er...no.
I just can't get my head around the premise that 'everyone is a winner'. Logic says that for someone to win, then the others involved have to lose. Doesn't matter what the thing they are striving for is. To announce that everyone is a winner negates the efforts that some put in and gives false kudos to those that are just there.

[scumdog]

That's easy, there are none silly if we are all winners....

That's like saying 'we're all tall' - but we are all various hights.
SOMEBODY has to be short for others to be tall....

[awayatc]

We are all winners....

So that's an admission that there is such a thing as a competition then.......?

Sad never to experience the pride one gets from achieving something...........

Everybody can pick their own race, but if you never find your limits, how can push them.....and improve?
If we as a species would have thought like that, we'd still be crawling on all four.....

My kids are also winners, not because they also participated, but because they have on occasionc exceeded their OWN expectations....in an arena of their own chosing...

That makes people proud....
As does wearing that silver fern.....
justifiably so...

[slofox]

There is nothing wrong with striving to be THE best.....:first:
There is nothing wrong with striving to do YOUR best....:first:

In fact that is what it is all about - striving to do your best so that we can find the best...

If we don't encourage all to do their best we get fewer winners - we get a much smaller pool of talent because too many people drop out through lack of success. This is where encouraging participation comes in - we want to keep the pool as big as possible so that the true talent will emerge. But that should never stand in the way of acknowledging excellence.
So I want to see both sides of this - I want participation to be high but I also want talent to emerge - the best talent. To achieve this neither elitism nor total equality should dominate. We need both....

(Or something....I think....can anybody understand this drivel....am I making sense here or am I just full of shit as usual.....muttermumblennngngrrrrrroink...?)

[Grahameeboy]

Er...no.
I just can't get my head around the premise that 'everyone is a winner'. Logic says that for someone to win, then the others involved have to lose. Doesn't matter what the thing they are striving for is. To announce that everyone is a winner negates the efforts that some put in and gives false kudos to those that are just there.

That's the probs with logic....

[Grahameeboy]

So that's an admission that there is such a thing as a competition then.......?

Sad never to experience the pride one gets from achieving something...........

Everybody can pick their own race, but if you never find your limits, how can push them.....and improve?
If we as a species would have thought like that, we'd still be crawling on all four.....

My kids are also winners, not because they also participated, but because they have on occasionc exceeded their OWN expectations....in an arena of their own chosing...

That makes people proud....
As does wearing that silver fern.....
justifiably so...

How do you know I have not achieved...

[Grahameeboy]

That's like saying 'we're all tall' - but we are all various hights.
SOMEBODY has to be short for others to be tall....

We all stand tall...nothing to do with height and dimensions....

[MSTRS]

Perfect sense, Slofox. That is how it should be. Striving to be the best you can. Not this airy-fairy-we-are-all-winners tripe.

[MadDuck]

SOMEBODY has to be short for others to be tall....

Thats what I keep telling people.....

[MSTRS]

So we are in agreement....cool....


What do you ride...mmm...mmm....it's on the tip of my tougue...okay I give up...lol


That's easy, there are none silly if we are all winners....


That's the probs with logic....


How do you know I have not achieved...


We all stand tall...nothing to do with height and dimensions....

Katman? Is that you? Still marching to a drum that only you can hear?

[Grahameeboy]

Katman? Is that you? Still marching to a drum that only you can hear?

I don't care....

[FROSTY]

I dont get the -do your best mentality. No boy do BETTER than your best.

[Grahameeboy]

So that's an admission that there is such a thing as a competition then.......?

Did not mention a competition

Sad never to experience the pride one gets from achieving something...........

Don't have to be first to be proud.

That makes people proud....
As does wearing that silver fern.....
justifiably so...

To me there are more important things than a flag

...................

[Grahameeboy]

I dont get the -do your best mentality. No boy do BETTER than your best.

I understand....I just see life from a different perspective...I am happy, I am proud....

[98tls]

I dont get the -do your best mentality. No boy do BETTER than your best. I think it probably depends on the individual child and what he/she is doing at the time,a fattys not going to go to well in a sprint race so an over enthusiastic parent may well make things worse,same kid will excel at something else for sure so i guess its a matter of sorting strengths/weakness.Then again if a fatty enjoys sprinting what the hell.:2thumbsup.Bugger it what do i know:dodge::dodge:

[DMNTD]

I think it probably depends on the individual child and what he/she is doing at the time,a fattys not going to go to well in a sprint race so an over enthusiastic parent may well make things worse,same kid will excel at something else for sure so i guess its a matter of sorting strengths/weakness.Then again if a fatty enjoys sprinting what the hell.:2thumbsup.Bugger it what do i know:dodge::dodge:

Indeed but surely encouraging the voluptuous kid to do better next time is where it's at?

[McJim]

I think the battle cry for one side of the argument here should be
The meek shall inherit the Earth - if that's alright with you of course.

[98tls]

I think the battle cry for one side of the argument here should be
The meek shall inherit the Earth - if that's alright with you of course. Or at the very least Invergiggle.:wari:

[FJRider]

I think the battle cry for one side of the argument here should be
The meek shall inherit the Earth - if that's alright with you of course.

Katman's new sig....

[Ixion]

That's like saying 'we're all tall' - but we are all various hights.
SOMEBODY has to be short for others to be tall....

The implication being , of course, that tall is the winner and short is the loser. To which the obvious response is "Precious McKenzie"



No. We have to have done something outstanding (at least, for that person) to deserve the title 'winner'.


Perhaps. But the "something outstanding" may not be recoognised as such by the mob. There was a certain widow, a loser, who obtained the approval of another loser.

And the accolades of the "winner" may be brief. "Look upon my works, ye mighty, and despair".

[Katman]

Katman's new sig....

Sorry, but if you troll back through my posts you'll find one that says "I hate to break the news but..... the meek will never inherit the earth".

[Katman]

A couple of years ago my wife told me that her young cousin's school netball teams didn't even keep score in their games anymore. I thought "WTF!!!!!!!"

[scumdog]

The implication being , of course, that tall is the winner and short is the loser. To which the obvious response is "Precious McKenzie".

Awe contrair.

I could have just as easily said it the other way around for the comparison I was making.

[Trudes]

Day 8: NZ and Togo are equal. Is that how it goes?

[awayatc]

To go where...?

[Swoop]

The meek shall inherit the Earth - if that's alright with you of course.
Good on them, since they will not have it for long. The strong will take it from them.

[CB ARGH]

That's so the fat kids don't go emo and buy razorblades from the $2 shop. :shit:

[MSTRS]

The implication being , of course, that tall is the winner and short is the loser. To which the obvious response is "Precious McKenzie"


I'm sure that no such thing was implied. In fact, short people are likely to be the winners in a game of hide-and-seek...
It is hard to explain the titles winner/loser in terms other than coming first in a competition. I alluded to the driver who pushed earlier - what I was attempting to convey is that attitude defines a winner, coupled with endeavour and outcome.
Some winners are the biggest losers. And vikiverki.
Still does not mean that 'we are all winners'

[awayatc]

MSTRS......I don't think it can be made any clearer then that......

[FROSTY]

Sorry to do a classic thread dredge but this exact conversation came up again tonight.
One of the lads form teachers has pissed me off so much I almost hit her. and I never hit a woman.
The conversation went 'Oh the lad just has to accept hes not going to get top marks at school and aim just to pass"
What really frightened me was that she genuinely couldn't understand the concept of aiming to WIN. Aiming to be the best.
Set the bar at the highest level and falling short is a pass
Set the bar at "just passing" and falling short is to fail
"Ohh well he just has to accept he may have to redo the year." was the response.
Maybee I'm just too old for this world we live in today. maybee being mediocre is the norm.
But I'll be fucked if I'm gonna encourage any of my kids to strive to be average.

[short-circuit]

Sorry to do a classic thread dredge but this exact conversation came up again tonight.
One of the lads form teachers has pissed me off so much I almost hit her. and I never hit a woman.
The conversation went 'Oh the lad just has to accept hes not going to get top marks at school and aim just to pass"
What really frightened me was that she genuinely couldn't understand the concept of aiming to WIN. Aiming to be the best.
Set the bar at the highest level and falling short is a pass
Set the bar at "just passing" and falling short is to fail
"Ohh well he just has to accept he may have to redo the year." was the response.
Maybee I'm just too old for this world we live in today. maybee being mediocre is the norm.
But I'll be fucked if I'm gonna encourage any of my kids to strive to be average.

Maybe she doesn't believe in setting people up to fail? Maybe she's attempting to temper your expectations?

Take a few breaths and reflect on why you had such a strong reaction to what she said.

[mashman]

But I'll be fucked if I'm gonna encourage any of my kids to strive to be average.

If the father is anything to go by, they'll achieve that standard by default, why raise their hopes :shifty:. Meh, it must get boring being a teacher, picking the losers in every class and wondering why one would waste their energy trying to help them to achieve when they clearly don't have the mental faculty to be exceptional. She probably knows how the kid will turn out, the job he will do, the number of kids he will have etc...

[Road kill]

Sorry to do a classic thread dredge but this exact conversation came up again tonight.
One of the lads form teachers has pissed me off so much I almost hit her. and I never hit a woman.
The conversation went 'Oh the lad just has to accept hes not going to get top marks at school and aim just to pass"
What really frightened me was that she genuinely couldn't understand the concept of aiming to WIN. Aiming to be the best.
Set the bar at the highest level and falling short is a pass
Set the bar at "just passing" and falling short is to fail
"Ohh well he just has to accept he may have to redo the year." was the response.
Maybee I'm just too old for this world we live in today. maybee being mediocre is the norm.
But I'll be fucked if I'm gonna encourage any of my kids to strive to be average.

Maybe she's trying to send you a message without hurting your feelings,,,too much.

Maybe the kids simply not the big winner,,,after all,,,,what do you do for a living ?

My old man was a truck driver<_<

[Road kill]

If the father is anything to go by, they'll achieve that standard by default, why raise their hopes :shifty:. Meh, it must get boring being a teacher, picking the losers in every class and wondering why one would waste their energy trying to help them to achieve when they clearly don't have the mental faculty to be exceptional. She probably knows how the kid will turn out, the job he will do, the number of kids he will have etc...

Beat me too it,,,,must spread rep.

[FROSTY]

Maybe she doesn't believe in setting people up to fail? Maybe she's attempting to temper your expectations?
Take a few breaths and reflect on why you had such a strong reaction to what she said.
Holey cow you really don't get it. Aiming to be the best -striving to be the best means that is what you are aiming for. Falling short is still passing. Aiming to "just pass" means falling short is actually failing.
Would you enter a race to finish or to win?

[oneofsix]

Sorry to do a classic thread dredge but this exact conversation came up again tonight.
One of the lads form teachers has pissed me off so much I almost hit her. and I never hit a woman.
The conversation went 'Oh the lad just has to accept hes not going to get top marks at school and aim just to pass"
What really frightened me was that she genuinely couldn't understand the concept of aiming to WIN. Aiming to be the best.
Set the bar at the highest level and falling short is a pass
Set the bar at "just passing" and falling short is to fail
"Ohh well he just has to accept he may have to redo the year." was the response.
Maybee I'm just too old for this world we live in today. maybee being mediocre is the norm.
But I'll be fucked if I'm gonna encourage any of my kids to strive to be average.

Turns out my mum had the same shit when I was a lad in intermediate. She didn't accept it. we were streamed at high school. Top stream :woohoo: Good work mum.


Maybe she doesn't believe in setting people up to fail? Maybe she's attempting to temper your expectations?

Take a few breaths and reflect on why you had such a strong reaction to what she said.
Typical modern teacher. Can't have kids feeling they have failed :bs: Tell him to try harder, all reports used to have that standard line in my day. :Punk:


Holey cow you really don't get it. Aiming to be the best -striving to be the best means that is what you are aiming for. Falling short is still passing. Aiming to "just pass" means falling short is actually failing.
Would you enter a race to finish or to win?
Enter the race to do my best. If racing Rossi or Stoner, don't expect to win but want to do the best and see how close I can get. Sometimes finishing is a win, like the Muslim female runner in the Olympics, but agree with your point, you don't aim to finish last.

[wysper]

What was it one of our top triatheletes (sp?) said, Winning isn't everything, wanting to is.

There are plenty of times I will do something and not expect to win. But yes I try to. There are times where I am doing something just for fun, and I could care less if I won (well.. mostly, even want to win those ones).

While my kids are little, I want them to try things because they are fun, they enjoy it etc. As they get older the winning or losing side will come into it.
Already though, they prefer to be on the winning side!

It is harder when it is something like music, where there isn't a winning and losing, there is an improving performance. It is harder to set a bar for achievement in this case. And there is no way I want to hot house my children. That is when there needs to be drive from the child them selves, and simply for some, that drive won't be there.

[FROSTY]

Wysper I dig the triathletes point and your point re music etc. Maybee I'm just not phrasing it correctly.Aim to be the best in whatever you do is all I ask for.
Emphasis on the word AIM

[short-circuit]

Holey cow you really don't get it. Aiming to be the best -striving to be the best means that is what you are aiming for. Falling short is still passing. Aiming to "just pass" means falling short is actually failing.
Would you enter a race to finish or to win?

1) Learning isn't competing. The analogy is a stupid one.
2) That notwithstanding, Fat Albert vs Usain bolt...not much point in talkin up Fat Albert (he might be fat but it doesn't mean he's dumb)
3) You obviously think his teacher's opinion is more influential than yours. I tend to think she has a better idea of his academic capacity...and perhaps level of interest in school
4) Your child's life is his life - not an extension of yours

[merv]

Wysper I dig the triathletes point and your point re music etc. Maybee I'm just not phrasing it correctly.Aim to be the best in whatever you do is all I ask for.
Emphasis on the word AIM

Simple, the old man (you) and old lady need to ask their kid is he doing his best? Is he getting to where he is aiming? If not why not? Does he need to try harder and have a better attitude towards school? What's holding him back?

There is a damn good chance the teacher can't change this kid if he doesn't want to be changed. The teacher sure as hell can't raise his IQ, though I hear dope can lower it forever.

If the kid sees the light, he will kick arse to prove the teacher wrong because she has laid down a challenge really as to what level she sees him at. If he doesn't agree with her it is in his hands to make the difference. Take responsibility for his own actions. How often do we hear that, but it is the only answer?

Someone mentioned losers in youth gangs - well its all in the mind - they see themselves as the winners, smarter and tougher than the rest, rebellious, cool etc not the losers. Its a mind game, and clearly your boy has taken the easy route at the moment and that's how the teacher sees him.

Remember the saying "if you say you can, or you say you can't, you are right" that's because the individual is the main driver of their personal outcomes. No use blaming it on someone else like a teacher.

In summary - kick his fricken arse and tell him to pull finger so he aint a loser.

[scumdog]

Someone mentioned losers in youth gangs - well its all in the mind - they see themselves as the winners, smarter and tougher than the rest, rebellious, cool etc not the losers. Its a mind game, and clearly your boy has taken the easy route at the moment and that's how the teacher sees him..

Sadly so true Merv - too many only look inward at their 'cool' mates - they don' realise that there's a great big world out there, most of which doesn't even realise these 'cool' kids exist.

[FROSTY]

Remember the saying "if you say you can, or you say you can't, you are right" that's because the individual is the main driver of their personal outcomes. No use blaming it on someone else like a teacher
Hey I agree with about all you posted merv. My view always is "the buck stops here" I just hate someone with influence over how a kid thinks is actively encouraging them to accept being average or even below average.
The way I see it -if enough people tell you that you are stupid or ugly etc eventually you start to believe it. It takes towering self confidence not to let it get to you.

[short-circuit]

The way I see it -if enough people tell you that you are stupid or ugly etc eventually you start to believe it. It takes towering self confidence not to let it get to you.

Except she told you he was average...and maybe she's right

[mashman]

How do you account for those who are exceptional students and have exceptional careers ahead of them in any field they choose, yet decide that they'd rather have fun instead? Was just watchin those twats on Close Up deciding what skills the kids of today need... too many subjects at school etc... stunning that they come to these realisations about 20 years too late and will probably still do nothing about it. What teachers say and how things turn out seldom matter. One of my best mates was a dumb as 2 short planks, academia wise, but he had to have been one of the most talented joiners I've ever seen. Brains ain't everything by a long way. Whilst I agree with try to do your best, no kid should be pushed into anything under the guise of achieving or losing.

It ain't a fuckin competition, it's Education!

[Howie]

Sorry to do a classic thread dredge but this exact conversation came up again tonight.
One of the lads form teachers has pissed me off so much I almost hit her. and I never hit a woman.
The conversation went 'Oh the lad just has to accept hes not going to get top marks at school and aim just to pass"
What really frightened me was that she genuinely couldn't understand the concept of aiming to WIN. Aiming to be the best.
Set the bar at the highest level and falling short is a pass
Set the bar at "just passing" and falling short is to fail
"Ohh well he just has to accept he may have to redo the year." was the response.
Maybee I'm just too old for this world we live in today. maybee being mediocre is the norm.
But I'll be fucked if I'm gonna encourage any of my kids to strive to be average.

As a parent, and as a single parent since my kids were quite young I can understand what you are trying to say. My oldest although quite intelligent was not interested in sitting in classrooms, or doing anything Academic at all. This caused more than a few disagreements between us as like most parents I wanted only the best for him. He has got himself a job in a trade that he really enjoys, and is doing well. is he a Loser, or a winner? He is doing a job he enjoys, contributing to society and doesn't have a huge student loan to pay off for something that he doesn't want to do. On the other Hand my Daughter who works really hard to pass exams and unit standards is planning on going to Uni to get a degree to follow a career path she has had her heart set on since she was quite young. The difference between them isn't one of intelligence, but of having the goal and knowing where they want to go.

During teen years it seems that some kids can make those goals and work towards them, and others can't.


What you need to try to do is find a reason for Baby Bikie to want to excel to the best of his ability in the Academic classroom. Then the rest well become easy.

you need to create the self motivation/desire, and determination to reach Academic Goals. Does he have a Dream Job/ career he wants to follow? What sort of Qualifications are needed?

Then look at paying for extra tuition in subjects where he needs the extra support if you can.



To Quote Calvin Coolidge

"Nothing in the world can take the
place of persistence.
Talent will not; nothing is more
common than unsuccessful men with
Talent. Genius will not; unrewarded
genius is almost a proverb.
Education will not; the world is
full of educated derelicts.
Persistence and determination
alone are omnipotent.

My own goal at the moment is work out how to pay for 4 years of uni, as I don't believe it is fair to saddle young people with $80 K debt to get a education.

[Swoop]

My oldest although quite intelligent was not interested in sitting in classrooms, or doing anything Academic at all. This caused more than a few disagreements between us as like most parents I wanted only the best for him. He has got himself a job in a trade that he really enjoys, and is doing well. is he a Loser, or a winner? He is doing a job he enjoys, contributing to society and doesn't have a huge student loan to pay off for something that he doesn't want to do.
That is one very good point that goes unnoticed.
Schools vigorously push the academic pathway and are blinkered to other options. Perhaps Frosty's lad is more interested in more "hands-on" activities and an educational pathway that leads on to a trade profession or career?

"Academics" are a bit blinkered once they have been through the indoctrination machine.

[wysper]

Wysper I dig the triathletes point and your point re music etc. Maybee I'm just not phrasing it correctly.Aim to be the best in whatever you do is all I ask for.
Emphasis on the word AIM

I hear ya frosty.

Just for me, it is the "aim to be the best in whatever you do is all i ask for" part that I would disagree with.

To make a ridiculous example for my point.
I want a piece of toast. Do I spend the time and effort to make sure the butter is perfectly spread, the dead right thickness. Then apply the vegemite, not too much, not too little. Don't fold it over cause vegemite toast is best eaten as an open sandwich. Don't start too soon or the toast is too hot and the butter melts to much.. and so on and so forth.

Course I don't, I just make myself a piece of toast with vegemite on it.

Sometimes you just want the piece of toast and that is fine. Other times you might want the best darn piece of toast the world has ever seen.

One of the skills is picking which time is which.

[oneofsix]

That is one very good point that goes unnoticed.
Schools vigorously push the academic pathway and are blinkered to other options. Perhaps Frosty's lad is more interested in more "hands-on" activities and an educational pathway that leads on to a trade profession or career?

"Academics" are a bit blinkered once they have been through the indoctrination machine.

I really don't know what you mean. Look how they have improved the manual classes, no longer do you do wood work, metal work, sewing and cooking but now you get the new improved material technology. No longer do you have to struggle to be able to dress a piece of wood and make a useful magazine rack but now you get to design, make and market it. More frigging marketing wallies and no one that can build quality.

:jerry:

[Swoop]

No longer do you have to struggle to be able to dress a piece of wood and make a useful magazine rack but now you get to design, make and market it. More frigging marketing wallies and no one that can build quality.
I think you know what I mean...:shifty:

[NighthawkNZ]

He really struggled with that concept.


Remember at school they are now taught on the play field, that there are no winners or loosers... They can't play bullrush, climb trees (and fall out of trees) not allow to have "best" friends all friends are equal... and now a school in Aussie is saying no to cart wheels and hand stands...


basically answers your question there really...

[FROSTY]

That is one very good point that goes unnoticed.
Schools vigorously push the academic pathway and are blinkered to other options. Perhaps Frosty's lad is more interested in more "hands-on" activities and an educational pathway that leads on to a trade profession or career?
"Academics" are a bit blinkered once they have been through the indoctrination machine.
Sorry guys I'll rephrase a little. The AIM is a pass in NCEA level 1. The main part of this Im concerned with is passes in Maths and english.
Correct me if Im wrong but NCEA level 1 maths is the maths you need on a day to day basis regardless of the type of work you do. be it builder,cabinetmaker,sparkie etc.

[Murray]

Remember at school they are now taught on the play field, that there are no winners or loosers... They can't play bullrush, climb trees (and fall out of trees) not allow to have "best" friends all friends are equal... and now a school in Aussie is saying no to cart wheels and hand stands...


basically answers your question there really...

Reminds me of this e-mail that circulated a few years ago

TO ALL THE KIDS WHO
SURVIVED THE

1930's 40's, 50's, 60's & 70's!!

First, we survived being born to mothers who smoked and/or drank while they carried us.

They took aspirin, ate blue cheese dressing, tuna from a can, and didn't get tested for diabetes.

then after that trauma, our cots were covered with bright colored
lead-based paints.

We had no childproof lids on medicine bottles, doors or cabinets and when we rode our pushbikes, we had no helmets, not to mention, the risks we took hitchhiking.

As children, we would ride in cars with no seat belts or air bags.

Riding in the back of a Ute on a warm day was always a special treat.

We drank water from the garden hose and NOT from a bottle!

We shared one soft drink with four friends, from one bottle and NO ONE actually died from this.

We ate cupcakes, white bread and real butter and drank soft drink with sugar in it, but
we weren't overweight because WE WERE ALWAYS OUTSIDE PLAYING!

We would leave home in the morning and play all day, as long as we were back
when the streetlights came on..

No one was able to reach us all day. And we were O.K.

We would spend hours building our go-carts out of scraps and then ride down
the hill, only to find out we forgot the brakes. After running into the
bushes a few times, we learned to solve the problem.

We did not have Playstations, Nintendo's, X-boxes, no video games at all, no
99 channels on cable, no video tape movies, no surround sound, no cell phones, no personal computers, no Internet or Internet chatrooms..........WE HAD FRIENDS and we went outside and found them!

We fell out of trees, got cut, broke bones and teeth and there were no lawsuits from these accidents.

We ate worms and mud pies made from dirt, and the worms did not live in us forever.

We were given slingshots for our 10th birthdays,
made up games with sticks and tennis balls and although we were told it would happen, we did not put out very many eyes.

We rode bikes or walked to a friend's house and knocked on the door or rang
the bell, or just walked in and talked to them!

Under 12 footy had tryouts and not everyone made the team Those who didn't
had to learn to deal with disappointment. Imagine that!!

The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke the law was unheard of.
They actually sided with the law!

This generation has produced some of the best risk-takers, problem solvers
and inventors ever!

The past 50 years have been an explosion of innovation and new ideas.

We had freedom, failure, success and responsibility, and we learned

HOW TO
DEAL WITH IT ALL!

And YOU are one of them! CONGRATULATIONS!

[Edbear]

Hey I agree with about all you posted merv. My view always is "the buck stops here" I just hate someone with influence over how a kid thinks is actively encouraging them to accept being average or even below average.
The way I see it -if enough people tell you that you are stupid or ugly etc eventually you start to believe it. It takes towering self confidence not to let it get to you.

My mirror tells me every day I am average ugly but I don't believe it. Inside is a Dan Carter lookalike just waiting to be unleashed... :shifty:

[Winston001]

One of the lads form teachers has pissed me off so much I almost hit her. and I never hit a woman.
The conversation went 'Oh the lad just has to accept hes not going to get top marks at school and aim just to pass"
What really frightened me was that she genuinely couldn't understand the concept of aiming to WIN. Aiming to be the best.


I feel for you. Possibly the teacher assesses your son as academically average and not to expect too much of him. The Fat Albert vs Usain Bolt example. Also some teachers have unlearned the concept of "winning" because it implies losing. Most schools do not overtly stream and do not have class rankings.

I suspect you want your son to strive - to try hard, do his best. And if his teacher seems to have given up then half the battle is lost.

All you can do is be an active parent. Encourage your son without turning his life into a nightmare. Get a tutor. Visit the school regularly. Whatever it takes.