Discussion on Mentor Programme

[FJRider]

There is a point to these... or just a post count increase...???:shifty:

[Mrs Busa Pete]

Ok mental pants can i have the shortened version of all that as i would like to nominate someone for mentors postion.

[dyls]

This looks awesome.

Also looks like you guys have put a serious amount of work into it!

Guess it's too early to nominate myself as a mentee just yet, will keep my eyes peeled :innocent:

[CookMySock]

Well done fellas. I love to mentor, and I'm good at it, but only a beginner myself. Oh well.

Steve

[Mrs Busa Pete]

How to become a Mentor:

Process
Contact the Mentors Group with the name of the person being nominated (people are welcome to put themselves forward). Two (2) references MUST be included. The referees would ideally be on kiwibiker but don't need to be (include a contact email or something for them). They really only need to be able to truthfully vouch for the nominated person, ie he/she has been riding the required amount of time, isn't an idiot, has some teaching ability etc
Administrators check them out and chat to their referees
Notice is posted in forums for 2-3 weeks during which time anyone can voice their objections (either publicly or via pm)
Administrators appoint or reject

To contact the Mentors group a couple of links will be put up when the vbulletin mod for the Mentors is completed and tested. For now, just make sure[list] the person you want to nominate to be a Mentor actually wants to be a Mentor get 2 decent referees

Send the nomination to either The Stranger, who is the Senior Mentor for the Northern North Island, or to any of the Mentor Administrators (Mental-Trousers, Virago or myself)

.



Seems he is already a mentor.....

[gunnyrob]

Good Work, would be keen to help, but have only returned to riding last year after a decent break. Hope it all goes well.

[motorbyclist]

good effort guys

is there a guideline as to how much time investment could be expected of a mentor?

[Jantar]

Because being a mentor is voluntary there can be no specific requirements of time etc.

[Pedrostt500]

This sounds a well thought out process, large pat on the backs for all involved.
I certainly have the years of riding to mentor but I may not be personaly well known enough within the KB comunity to put my hand up just yet, so I geuss a few more local KB rides, for me.

[Devil]

I dont understand why KB has taken ownership of a mentor programme instead of the passive stance of being a place where someone can just plainly request help, and people can provide it on an ad-hoc basis.

What is the official stance on a non-approved member providing mentor assistance based on a request here?

I'm sure there are plenty of people with suitable experience to be a mentor who are not often available and could not commit to a programme, but would like to just provide service when they have time. There wouldn't be much point in attempting to sign up if you're saying no all the time.

[Jantar]

...What is the official stance on a non-approved member providing mentor assistance based on a request here?....

There is, and can be, no official stance on that happening.

KB used to run a mentor scheme, that was effectively taken over by well intentioned riders mentoring new riders and teaching dangerous and un-neccessary manouvers. For that reason the old system was disbanded, and this new scheme is now the replacement.

Now think about it from a new rider's point of view. Would a new rider prefer a mentor who has been nominated, referreed, and approved as a safe and competent rider and mentor, or would they prefer someone with no credence, but happens to have a free hour?

Now, before you jump down my neck, I'm not saying that only approved mentors are capable of mentoring, because that would not be the case. What I am saying is that if a new rider, or even an experienced rider who wishes to obtain skills in a different field of riding, wants to be mentored, then we now have a structure in place to match that rider with a mentor, and not have them take pot luck.

[motorbyclist]

There wouldn't be much point in attempting to sign up if you're saying no all the time.

well don't then.... i won't be putting my hand up any time soon, and i 'mentor' enough of the uni club learners anyway so why fix what isn't broke?

[Devil]

Now think about it from a new rider's point of view. Would a new rider prefer a mentor who has been nominated, referreed, and approved as a safe and competent rider and mentor, or would they prefer someone with no credence, but happens to have a free hour?

Me not seeing the point aside, I wouldn't think it in KB's best interest to be approving people as "safe". I've seen plenty of riders who under the criteria would be classed as 'safe', pull some dodgy shite, and riders you'd associate as being a bit of a loose cannon being able to proficiently articulate important riding concepts to newbs.

On one hand, KB is putting it's rubber stamp on a programme, then on the other it's taking an all care and no responsibility stance. This I do not understand. Does the volume of mentor requests justify the size of the administration team behind the programme?

[motorbyclist]

Uh, thats exactly my point...

yeah, so don't sign up;)

[Jantar]

...so why fix what isn't broke?
That is the issue. It was broke.

[xwhatsit]

That is the issue. It was broke.
Yep. The old mentor system was broke. Not the passive sort of mentoring that's been going on since the old system and carries on now. That's not being messed with, so no need to get up in arms about it. Now we just have a good structured system as well. I see no conflict between the two.

[Maha]

Me not seeing the point aside, I wouldn't think it in KB's best interest to be approving people as "safe". I've seen plenty of riders who under the criteria would be classed as 'safe', pull some dodgy shite, and riders you'd associate as being a bit of a loose cannon being able to proficiently articulate important riding concepts to newbs.

On one hand, KB is putting it's rubber stamp on a programme, then on the other it's taking an all care and no responsibility stance. This I do not understand. Does the volume of mentor requests justify the size of the administration team behind the programme?




I agree in what you are saying here Devil.
Its a bit like being appointed/nominated 'Hall Moniter' at school....the ins and outs of that you can work out for yourself.
RRRS is there for those who need a bit of fine tuning, and an awesome job they do I might add. They are not all over the country granted, so those who 'need' mentoring may or may note post about it, and then be put in touch with a KB mentor? possibly. Personally I think its good idea to have these Mentors out there, but if I ever want/need advice on anything I just ask. Mentor or not, there are probably three on here that I really listen too, and I have (in the past) had a one on one lession with a Mentor before, wouldn't do it again to be honest. Not that this person was stink or anything, just that, its my choice, to seek or not to seek. Damn! and I paid for that lession too...:rolleyes:

[The Stranger]

Me not seeing the point aside, I wouldn't think it in KB's best interest to be approving people as "safe". I've seen plenty of riders who under the criteria would be classed as 'safe', pull some dodgy shite, and riders you'd associate as being a bit of a loose cannon being able to proficiently articulate important riding concepts to newbs.

On one hand, KB is putting it's rubber stamp on a programme, then on the other it's taking an all care and no responsibility stance. This I do not understand. Does the volume of mentor requests justify the size of the administration team behind the programme?

I do think there is an important point here Devil.
Both liability and responsibility.

Someone takes a noob out and said noob wind up under a truck, lets face it, this is motorcycling, it could happen.
If KB has taken all reasonable and responsible steps to prevent this scenario then who can point a finger? It's not just arse covering by the way. It is taking a responsible and a caring approach.

On the other hand how could KB stop a noob from electing to ride with say motorbicyclist, they can't, freedom of association is in the bill of rights. So what other stance is really possible in that regard?

[Jantar]

...
RRRS is there for those who need a bit of fine tuning, and an awesome job they do I might add. They are not all over the country granted, so those who 'need' mentoring may or may note post about it, and then be put in touch with a KB mentor?

.....and I have (in the past) had a one on one lession with a Mentor before, wouldn't do it again to be honest. Not that this person was stink or anything, just that, its my choice, to seek or not to seek. Damn! and I paid for that lession too...:rolleyes:

Many of the mentors nominated do work with RRRS, and that is one of the things that helps make them suitable as mentors.

I am shocked to read that you paid for mentoring. One of the reasons that the KB mentor scheme is set up the way it is, is to avoid any legal comeback on the site owner. This means that all mentoring is voluntary. No money, or other consideration is to change hands, and no promises or contracts are to be made.

If you paid someone for mentoring, then had an accident where it could be shown that the mentoring was deficient, the mentor is liable under OSH, and could find themselves in big trouble.

[Mental Trousers]

Yep. The old mentor system was broke. Not the passive sort of mentoring that's been going on since the old system and carries on now. That's not being messed with, so no need to get up in arms about it. Now we just have a good structured system as well. I see no conflict between the two.

Spot on. Good to know you are able to see the bigger picture :niceone:


I dont understand why KB has taken ownership of a mentor programme instead of the passive stance of being a place where someone can just plainly request help, and people can provide it on an ad-hoc basis.

We had a mentor programme in the past. This is just continuing on from that one.


What is the official stance on a non-approved member providing mentor assistance based on a request here?

Any members here are able to organise rides for whatever purpose they want. That's official.


I'm sure there are plenty of people with suitable experience to be a mentor who are not often available and could not commit to a programme, but would like to just provide service when they have time. There wouldn't be much point in attempting to sign up if you're saying no all the time.

Not sure what you're saying. Mentors are voluntary. They put in as much of their own time as they want to. We've had one nominated who will be out of the country for 3 months at a time, back for 1 month. He's willing to do what he can when he's around. That's not a problem.

[Maha]

If you paid someone for mentoring, then had an accident where it could be shown that the mentoring was deficient, the mentor is liable under OSH, and could find themselves in big trouble.


What I was taught was low speed controll/U Turns without putting your feet down and being smooth while doing it, it was a while ago, and no, the mentor can not be held liable if things go pear shaped, thats down to me. That low speed controll is difficult (20kph and under) on a big bike, but the mentor was so smooth, I looked like a I had parkinsons! Got it in the end, but didnt practice it after at all.

[NighthawkNZ]

What I was taught

Thats being taught... as in teacher... mentors are not teachers

[Joni]

The programme does have value and will help many new riders, and also helps the site set some expectations on “official” mentoring.

The programme has been very well thought out, lots of time has been invested in it, and we have tried to ensure most aspects are covered… however it was obvious even before the relaunch that there would be people who would back the new mentor programme and people who won’t. The people who do can enjoy what has been set up… the people who don’t can do their own thing as they have all along. Fairly simple.

[MSTRS]

I can't understand why there is any disagreement over having a mentor system. We all (well, most of us) understand that KB is not an organisation, just a place for interested people to 'get together'. But the admins recognise there must be a degree of responsibility taken to ensure that anything of a quasi-formal nature that is linked to KB must be up to some sort of reasonable standard. This is where the old mentor system fell down...no checks and balances on individuals who put it about that they were mentors.
Now that the whole thing is more structured and formalised, with a robust process to 'elect' such mentors, the rank'n'file can have some peace of mind to know that only suitable candidates are sanctioned by the members as a whole.
As time goes by, I'm sure that others will be put forward as mentors in the various regions. This is great, because more choice will mean better outcomes. But in the meantime, the currently proposed mentors will make a great asset for all that need some assistance.

[Devil]

I can't understand why there is any disagreement over having a mentor system. We all (well, most of us) understand that KB is not an organisation, just a place for interested people to 'get together'. But the admins recognise there must be a degree of responsibility taken to ensure that anything of a quasi-formal nature that is linked to KB must be up to some sort of reasonable standard.
I think the last mentor system, once it had become unwieldy, should have been ditched and left at that. KB taking a passive stance and just being a place where someone can request help and a member can personally provide it would mean no attachment to KB whatsoever. Nothing under the KB name. No liability, no administration.

Before anyone asks why now, why after it has been put together? Simple, because it wasn't a public proposal.

[Devil]

Yup, I agree… that plus the incessant need to argue/debate no matter what the subject is, some people are afflicted with it quite strongly on KB it seems…


Thats just a little dismissive and offensive. How often do you see me arguing for the sake of it?

[MSTRS]

Before anyone asks why now, why after it has been put together? Simple, because it wasn't a public proposal.

No? It has certainly been a 'public request'. You perhaps forget that there are 1000's on here who know very few of the other members, or are new to motorcycling and do not know anyone who can ride (well). Who do they ask for help? And without some sort of vetting system, how does the newby know they are getting the right info?

[FROSTY]

Good ,bad or indifferent we owe it to ourselves and the newbee riders to give it its best shot.
No matter how many people have been invoved in organising anything theres going to be issues they haven't figured out. Thats the nature of the beast.
As long as the people organising this matter are reasonable and able to see where they may have missed something and adjust accordingly I cant see a problem
From what I can see every nominated mentor has had their experience and skill level checked out
Heck why not just suck it and see?

That said I guess I wont be doing any wendsday night mentoring as my gib just isn't cut right --YEA RIGHT Tui

[Devil]

No? It has certainly been a 'public request'. You perhaps forget that there are 1000's on here who know very few of the other members, or are new to motorcycling and do not know anyone who can ride (well). Who do they ask for help? And without some sort of vetting system, how does the newby know they are getting the right info?

It's an internet forum! If you want to know something, you post, people reply.
There's plenty of opportunity there for someone to shoot down an idiot attempting to help.

[Ixion]

..
Heck why not just suck it and see?

That said I guess I wont be doing any wendsday night mentoring as my gib just isn't cut right --YEA RIGHT Tui

Because the price of getting it wrong is funerals.

If there was a novice rider for whom I had some personal attachment I would go to some considerable lengths to dissuade him (or her) from any involvement with Kiwbiker, until he/she had some years experience .

I'm sure the mentoring program will produce some very fast and 'skilled' riders, capable of 'giving the learn' to anyone. Whether that is the most important matter for novices may be more open to contention

[MSTRS]

Because the price of getting it wrong is funerals.

If there was a novice rider for whom I had some personal attachment I would go to some considerable lengths to dissuade him (or her) from any involvement with Kiwbiker, until he/she had some years experience .

I'm sure the mentoring program will produce some very fast and 'skilled' riders, capable of 'giving the learn' to anyone. Whether that is the most important matter for novices may be more open to contention

Settle down, Ixion. Nobody is talking about that sort of mentoring. Unless it is asked for and provided as part of racing - not on the road. We are talking about the little things that contribute to safe, enjoyable biking. Like lane position awareness, corner entry lines, hazard awareness, correct gear selection or use of front/back brakes etc.

[justsomeguy]

Because the price of getting it wrong is funerals.

If there was a novice rider for whom I had some personal attachment I would go to some considerable lengths to dissuade him (or her) from any involvement with Kiwbiker, until he/she had some years experience .

I'm sure the mentoring program will produce some very fast and 'skilled' riders, capable of 'giving the learn' to anyone. Whether that is the most important matter for novices may be more open to contention

You're a little too old to be acting like a kid. Whassa matta? Didn't get an invitation to join this party?

Can't we give these chaps credit for sitting down in their free time and thinking of newbies? This is most definitely a non-profit, highly charitable motion.

Why would you advise new riders against getting involved in KB? KB is for all practical purposes the best thing to happen to motorcycling in NZ ever.

Definitely make them aware that they should not attend some rides and let them know your opinion of some riders but why stop them from meeting 10,000 like minded people. Do remember all the public road racers would have ridden and crashed whether they joined KB or not and they knew exactly what they were doing.
For what it's worth I say all these guys involved in this program need a standing round of applause.:done:

[justsomeguy]

My point exactly. There is usually no such thing in threads like this one. The decision on whether to have a mentor program is over. This thread is for suggestions on some of the finer points of how it will work. Got some ideas - post them.

Haven't checked - but is there a sticky section containing the relevant points in the 250 section and newbies sections?

If possible one of the mods or actually all of us should suggest the existence of this program in all the "hi there I'm new to KB" threads.

[NighthawkNZ]

We are talking about the little things that contribute to safe, enjoyable biking. Like lane position awareness, corner entry lines, hazard awareness, correct gear selection or use of front/back brakes etc.

Exactly... ie; tips and guidance... (Mentors are not teachers) for riding in the wind, and wet wether riding... what to look for that could be a hazard... riding through the grit... or missing the grit altogether... little pointers that could help any where... survival skills

tips how to get out of a situation or how to avoid it in the first place...

The newbie may be doing everything correctly so simply giving a bit of moral support can also go a long way.

[Trudes]

Well as someone who received mentoring from someone from KB I can vouch for how much it helped my survival skills on the bike and my general riding manner. Admittedly I didn't actually use the "KB mentor system", but my mentor was a KB mentor at the time and I asked him to mentor me because I had seen him ride and liked him as a person so knew I'd be in safe hands.
However if I'd been a complete noob and new to KB and didn't know anyone, then a system like the new and improved KB mentor system would have been very useful.
So a new rider decides they need some help with their riding etc and sees the KB mentoring programme and decides, "Yeah, that's what I need", they look up who the mentors in their area are and can be rest assured that they must have many years of riding experience under their belt and knew their stuff etc otherwise they wouldn't be an "approved" Kb mentor, and must also be a pretty good person to put their hand up to help others in the first place. So I think it takes away some of the apprehension of "Does this person actually know what they're talking about and not going to lead me down the garden path and get me killed".
Great going all involved, everyone could do with brushing up on their skills from time to time, just remember that even the top sports people still get training, lessons and mentoring from others.

[MSTRS]

Haven't checked - but is there a sticky section containing the relevant points in the 250 section and newbies sections?

If possible one of the mods or actually all of us should suggest the existence of this program in all the "hi there I'm new to KB" threads.

Once the thing is fully sorted, it will no doubt be put up as a sticky in there

[pritch]

Yup, I agree… that plus the incessant need to argue/debate no matter what the subject is,

I was a bit startled at the reaction to the proposed scheme. It seemed like a good idea and that a considerable amount of work had gone into it, so I thought I'd read the thread. Hello? It's an argument.

Those who feel inclined to help, do so. Those who don't feel inclined don't need to get involved.

WTF is there to argue about?

[Joni]

Those who feel inclined to help, do so. Those who don't feel inclined don't need to get involved.Yup - you have hit the nail on the head 100%.


WTF is there to argue about?I dont know.... but it has happened.

[Nasty]

P.S: What about Skidmark, Morcs, Carver, Crazy Steve and JSG as mentors - come on we'd be teh dream team yah?...nah?:whistle:

If you wish to nominate anyone feel free but do so through the process that is detailed in http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=79923.

[yungatart]

Maybe I'm a little thick today, but I just don't see that there is an issue to get upset about.
If you don't wish to participate as a mentor, or a mentoree, don't. It really is that simple.
Nobody will be forced to go through the programme if they don't wish to.

Honestly, some of you lot would moan if your arse was on fire and someoine pissed on you to put it out!

[Devil]

Oh Jesus Christ. Yes you are thick today.

People are having issues with comprehension obviously. Arrogant fucks.

Lame are those who just sit back and take it, ask no questions and just accept things as they are. I will not.

I queried the programme because I was looking for understanding. Helpful trousers were provided, but in amongst bollocks from people who cant handle being questioned.

The end.

[yungatart]

Oh Jesus Christ. Yes you are thick today.

People are having issues with comprehension obviously. Arrogant fucks.

Lame are those who just sit back and take it, ask no questions and just accept things as they are. I will not.

I queried the programme because I was looking for understanding. Helpful trousers were provided, but in amongst bollocks from people who cant handle being questioned.

The end.

Thank you for at least clearing up my mental state for me. Now, forgive a confused elderly lady for her obtuseness, and elucidate on what exactly is the problem with the new mentor system.
Is it just because you haven't been nominated, sweetie?

I, for one, am grateful to those who have done the work on this, and think that it looks very good. I don't see any shortcomings (but then I am rather thick) and I shall give it a fair chance before I criticise it...

[Devil]

Thank you for at least clearing up my mental state for me. Now, forgive a confused elderly lady for her obtuseness, and elucidate on what exactly is the problem with the new mentor system.
Is it just because you haven't been nominated, sweetie?


Did you even read the whole thread? If you haven't picked up on what I wanted answers to then I suggest you go read it again.

Because I haven't been nominated? I couldn't care less if I was or not. Either way I wouldn't do it purely because I cannot commit to any regular time to help people out. I'm only too happy to assist people with thier riding but i'm not going to waste other peoples time by signing up and never being available!

Nowhere in this thread have I put down the effort that has obviously been made in doing what has been done, only asked questions of the programme itself.

You know where you can shove your "sweetie" remarks.

[nodrog]

...Now, forgive a confused elderly lady for her obtuseness, and elucidate on what exactly is the problem with the new mentor system.....?

ill forgive you confused elderly person:dodge: :innocent:

i think what Devil is getting at is. why the big hoopla creating a Mentoring system with all these "official" requirments, Head Mentors, and their subordinates, with enough wording and arse covering to be Winston Peters party policy. when infact KB is not a club, it is an internet site?

good on the guys for creating the new mentoring thingee, i think it will work, but like Devil is getting at (i think) it could have been simpler.

i for one dont really give a toss oneway or the other, if somebody wants to come for a ride, and wants some help/tips/advice, etc, i will gladly give it, unofficially of course. :2thumbsup

[MSTRS]

good on the guys for creating the new mentoring thingee, i think it will work, but like Devil is getting at (i think) it could have been simpler.



That was the problem. It was simple. And nobody seemed able to do simple. Various bods putting their hand up saying "I'll mentor you" when the reality was they couldn't back their ego with wise counsel. Now 'we've' made it much more structured, and guess what...some bods can't do that either.
No fucking wonder another KBer slammed the door on his way out.
Some here need to take a good hard look at themselves. Always questioning and knocking what others (try to) do for the good of all bikers. Plenty of noise and little substance.
If what's been put together so painstakingly over the last few months has a need for something more (or less), tell us what (you think) it is or leave it alone. Vague negative general comments don't help anyone.
(the above is not aimed at you Nodrog)

[MSTRS]

Further to my previous post...no-one is stopping anyone else giving advice when it's asked for. But if a newby (for example) wants especial help with their riding, a KB-sanctioned mentor is a better bet for them to get good advice from rather than just anyone. That is not to say that 'anyone' isn't capable, but how is a newby to know that?

[Maha]

I said in a previous post that there are three on here that I would listen too (I know these three personally) and thats not say I would listen to anyone else, but I am happy with my short list. I have a fair way to go when it comes to 'knowing almost everything' about riding a motorbike. Listening to people and taking it all in is paramount, putting it into practice and perfecting it takes time but is achievable.
If I was to ask six different bikers the same question, I would probably get six different answers, the outcome would more likely be the same, but what suits me best?

IE: Whats the best way to take a downhill off camber right hand 35 kph bend?

Im guessing the answers will differ?

I learnt my trade (not as an apprentice) but by working with alot of other tradesmen and taking the best from each one.

I will name one of my short listers, and this guy is so good to listen too, very thorough in his explaination of things and I have great deal of time for him and his knowledge of motorcycling.....Sorry MSTRS (John) but its you....

[MSTRS]

Thanks Maha. And my answer would be stay wide, apex late and ffs stay off the brakes. If you are not familiar with the corner, then approach any with that speed recommendation with caution.

[Katman]

I would suggest one of the best attributes that a mentor could have is an absense of ego. Some of the nominations have me wondering.

I would also hope that any mentor will work on suppressing the ego of those that they mentor.

[Ixion]

IE: Whats the best way to take a downhill off camber right hand 35 kph bend?



Very slowly, would be a good start. But it's irrelevant to a novice. He doesn't understand about off camber, and doesn't know that downhill corners are more taxing than left handers, or understand the head over centreline stuff.

Skill and experience are all good, but what will keep a novice unscathed , or otherwise, is attitude. As Mr Katman (and others : he is merely the latest, and somewhat more persistent tahn his predecessors) has on occasion suggested, to the collective fury of the site.

[Maha]

Very slowly, would be a good start. But it's irrelevant to a novice. He doesn't understand about off camber, and doesn't know that downhill corners are more taxing than left handers, or understand the head over centreline stuff.



True, absolutely true, but mentors are there for all riders yes?

[Mental Trousers]

IE: Whats the best way to take a downhill off camber right hand 35 kph bend?

Im guessing the answers will differ?

Both scrub off excess speed and your set your corner speed early. Stay wide to get the best possible view through the corner. Apex late but not too late. Have the bike leaning in with the body slightly upright and stand on the outside peg. Counter steering gives the most grip in these situations. On the exit, drift towards the outside because the camber will make the back wheel want to go in that direction so if your line takes you that way you're far less likely to lose rear grip.

That's 1 possible answer.


i think what Devil is getting at is. why the big hoopla creating a Mentoring system with all these "official" requirments, Head Mentors, and their subordinates, with enough wording and arse covering to be Winston Peters party policy. when infact KB is not a club, it is an internet site?

good on the guys for creating the new mentoring thingee, i think it will work, but like Devil is getting at (i think) it could have been simpler.

Simple didn't work anymore. The old Mentor programme was very straight forward and uncomplicated. But it ended up with people who were relatively inexperienced trying to teach others. It had lots of potential for bad things to happen.

The revamped scheme has set the bar high. It is difficult, but not impossible, for someone who hasn't been riding for 10 years to become a Mentor. R6_Kid is an example. He isn't a Mentor yet, however, he has made it a long way through the process because of his regular involvement in the RRRS and the backing of respected individuals in the Rider Training area.

As for being a bit complex, we had to look at all the possibilities and build something that had a reasonable chance of being able to handle them. We used a structure that is known to work (it's the same sort structure as the one that runs this site). We came up with a set of requirements that we believe will bring the most experience, knowledge and best attitudes to those looking for help. And we've put a system in place that means information gets shared and that riders looking for help will get quality, consistent and reliable help.

All of that adds up to something that isn't simple and can't be handled in a simple way.

[Maha]

Both scrub off excess speed and your set your corner speed early. Stay wide to get the best possible view through the corner. Apex late but not too late. Have the bike leaning in with the body slightly upright and stand on the outside peg. Counter steering gives the most grip in these situations. On the exit, drift towards the outside because the camber will make the back wheel want to go in that direction so if your line takes you that way you're far less likely to lose rear grip.

That's 1 possible answer.



Thats a great answer...explained so well that, I like this outside peg business too, never really tried that but I certainly will. So, right hand bend, weight the left peg?

[Mental Trousers]

Thats a great answer...explained so well that, I like this outside peg business too, never really tried that but I certainly will. So, right hand bend, weight the left peg?
yep :niceone:

Chook chaser on a stop bank is a good example of how the technique works. Ride down it on an angle and counter steer to go along. Lean the bike in towards the stop bank with the body upright and weighting the outside peg. Doing this you can safely counter steer to go back up the bank without losing the back end.

[Qkkid]

Thanks Maha. And my answer would be stay wide, apex late and ffs stay off the brakes. If you are not familiar with the corner, then approach any with that speed recommendation with caution.

:shit: Well done young man:wari:
:yes: Up and coming mentor maybe

[Devil]

Simple didn't work anymore. The old Mentor programme was very straight forward and uncomplicated. But it ended up with people who were relatively inexperienced trying to teach others. It had lots of potential for bad things to happen.

The revamped scheme has set the bar high. It is difficult, but not impossible, for someone who hasn't been riding for 10 years to become a Mentor. R6_Kid is an example. He isn't a Mentor yet, however, he has made it a long way through the process because of his regular involvement in the RRRS and the backing of respected individuals in the Rider Training area.

As for being a bit complex, we had to look at all the possibilities and build something that had a reasonable chance of being able to handle them. We used a structure that is known to work (it's the same sort structure as the one that runs this site). We came up with a set of requirements that we believe will bring the most experience, knowledge and best attitudes to those looking for help. And we've put a system in place that means information gets shared and that riders looking for help will get quality, consistent and reliable help.

All of that adds up to something that isn't simple and can't be handled in a simple way.

Listen up people. I asked questions of the programme, and here's someone with the level-headed ability to give a clear and to the point answer instead of getting snarky and condescending.
Are you others taking note? Or do you just prefer to try and take someone down a step and sit on your high horse instead of providing usefull answers to genuine questions.

MSTRS, do you think you could come up with something like that?

[Devil]

No fucking wonder another KBer slammed the door on his way out.
Some here need to take a good hard look at themselves. Always questioning and knocking what others (try to) do for the good of all bikers. Plenty of noise and little substance.
If what's been put together so painstakingly over the last few months has a need for something more (or less), tell us what (you think) it is or leave it alone. Vague negative general comments don't help anyone.
(the above is not aimed at you Nodrog)

Now, regarding this stupid tune above, heard far too often:

Why dont you all go back and read my posts in this thread regarding the mentor programme and point out a) me knocking it, or b) vague negative comments.

You'll see that I asked questions because I didn't understand. Apart from some exceptions, all I got was arrogant bullshit.
People moan about bringing other people down and that's exactly what you're doing here. I post carefully worded questions and just end up with bollocks.

The mentor programme didn't piss me off, it was the reaction of a few who couldn't seem to get their brain-worms past a question and just jump straight to the crucifixion, hence the reaction on the last page.

[boomer]

I'd panic stoppie, rev the snot out of the bike so the back wheel is spinning hard when it touches down and use the camber to drift the rear end around.

Then after the bike had landed on me after flicking me over the high side I'd regale the ambulance crew with stories of what a shit hot rider I am.

sounds about right for the wellie masseef


Hey MT.. why the **** does having years experience mean your a better rider....??!!!

I've been shagging for near on 30 years and im still shit at it...!!! Yet ive only been riding 4 and i'm the fastest cunt this side of the equator.

[blue eyed savage]

so how does this mentor programme work. i thik i need one

[Mental Trousers]

I've been shagging for near on 30 years and im still shit at it...!!! Yet ive only been riding 4 and i'm the fastest cunt this side of the equator.

You've been confusing the 2 of them. Shagging isn't meant to be fastest wins. That's your problem.


Hey MT.. why the **** does having years experience mean your a better rider....??!!!

The longer somebodies been riding the more situations they've experienced. Someone riding for a year is extremely unlikely to have have the depth of knowledge and experiences of someone who's been on bikes for 20 years. Mentoring is all about experience and passing it on.

[motorbyclist]

Those who feel inclined to help, do so. Those who don't feel inclined don't need to get involved.

+1

exactly what i tried to get across earlier


+1 for devil's comments too - he was never trying to shoot down the programme, but asking exactly what it was trying to achieve with all the beurocracy that just complicates an otherwise existing impromptu system, which is a question neatly answered above.

of course the organisers aren't going to just bin it, but i should hope that everyone is open to criticism and are able to admit flaws and change things as needs be. if that isn't the case (ie, the scheme can't stand up to the cruel and pedantic eyes of KB) it's doomed to fail...

so if anyone somehow thinks this system aims to replace the existing system (like the SMC learner rides, club 250 and "i'm new to riding, teach me plz" threads), it isn't and simply cannot - think of it as something to complement it.



That's 1 possible answer.

knee down, bro!

but you need USD forks

[SixPackBack]

How are the mentors picked?....some are outstanding candidates, others have lost licences, binned plenty of bikes and/or appear to be poorly qualified.
Along the lines of Devil this is a question!

[enigma51]

How are the mentors picked?....some are outstanding candidates, others have lost licences, binned plenty of bikes and/or appear to be poorly qualified.
Along the lines of Devil this is a question!

Mentors are picked by there post count and not abilities.

And i agree with boomer years riding and abiltiy has nothing to do with each other.

I know people that has been riding for years and still they ride like shit

[Joni]

How are the mentors picked?....some are outstanding candidates, others have lost licences, binned plenty of bikes and/or appear to be poorly qualified.
Along the lines of Devil this is a question!They are nominated, the first round of mentors were generally nominated by the Senior mentors of that area... then handed over to the admins who checked it all out, and now have been put forward to the forums.

Seriously if you appose someones nomination let an admin know! :yes:

[Big Dog]

sniff sniff Im not sure if Im picking up the smell of a KB popularity wank fest on this..........

Anyway Im not interested in that side of it, if someone has a bike and hasnt a clue about tyre pressures, chain tightness or how to ride it safely as possible give me a hola.

right time to pack me bags, Im leaving on a jet plane this arvo

In my experience, those who are best for the job are the quiet ones who hang around offering good advice where it is needed, not those who do it for popularity reasons.

A system of approval is necessary to avoid people who are inappropriate handing out inappropriate advice.

Is there some way that those who have actually been mentored by a particular rider can rate that mentor?

[NighthawkNZ]

The LTSA and the AA believe there is a gap in the system where a learner motor-cyclist gets their learners and then is let loose on the open roads... unlike a cage driver where you can and must have a licensed driver with you...(or something like that... never had and never will have a cage license :bash:)


The Mentor system is sorta designed it fill this gap (and on an unofficial level)... where the mentor is simply guiding the newbie

[Big Dog]

Mentors are picked by there post count and not abilities.

And i agree with boomer years riding and abiltiy has nothing to do with each other.

I know people that has been riding for years and still they ride like shit

Myself included.

However I feel that this in itself sets me up for assisting the truly new.
I have no natural talent and admitted it a decade ago.
I have worked really hard to develop the skills I need to stay alive.
I still work really hard to develop the skills I need to stay alive.
This means I can articulate, demonstrate and recommend activities to those who need help.

Judgment of another riders ability is just that. A personal judgement.
You want some street cred? I can't help.
You want to live to see the 300,000 mark? I can help.

Unfortunately this is not a cut and dried one size fits all sport / hobby / mode of transport.

(Not that I am an official mentor nor have I been nominated just my 2c)

[SixPackBack]

They are nominated, the first round of mentors were generally nominated by the Senior mentors of that area... then handed over to the admins who checked it all out, and now have been put forward to the forums.

Seriously if you appose someones nomination let an admin know! :yes:

And put my head on a chopping board in readiness for former friends to pull the string??.....no thanks. I would have thought the mods would have digged deep before nominating?..........would the AA or Police have forwarded names for anyone that is not trained, has not lost thier licence, has a superlative record keeping thier motorcycle upright, has many years experience?

[Nasty]

And put my head on a chopping board in readiness for former friends to pull the string??.....no thanks. I would have thought the mods would have digged deep before nominating?..........would the AA or Police have forwarded names for anyone that is not trained, has not lost thier licence, has a superlative record keeping thier motorcycle upright, has many years experience?

Sorry but this really is not to do with the mods ... the programme is put together to run by a seperate group as the responsibilities and experience required to do that are different from modorating a website.

[The Stranger]

And put my head on a chopping board in readiness for former friends to pull the string??.....no thanks. I would have thought the mods would have digged deep before nominating?..........would the AA or Police have forwarded names for anyone that is not trained, has not lost thier licence, has a superlative record keeping thier motorcycle upright, has many years experience?

I would encourage you to voice your concerns in an appropriate manner i.e. as prescribed, via PM to the mentor admins.
Despite what some may think of your online persona, your knowledge, wisdom and riding experience is well respected by those that know you.
The mentor admins are not going to drop you in it, objections are being handled with discretion.

[Joni]

objections are being handled with discretion.And they are needed SPB... we cant get it right if people dont voice their concerns...

[SixPackBack]

I have never know Sixpack to give a toss about being "dropped in it" <_<

Kinda true bro'.....I am keen to see the highest standard of tuiton possible.....

[MSTRS]

Kinda true bro'.....I am keen to see the highest standard of tuiton possible.....

As are we. Hence the care which has been taken to put this together.
Devil seems to think it's too complicated, but he's also said that he would have no desire to be a part of it. Right or wrong, I took his posts on the matter to be by way of criticism without benefit of alternative suggestion. He obviously didn't like my reply and felt the need to get personal. Oh well, c'est la vie.
On the subject of egos....get real. None of us are doing it for any reason other than making available a system for those that want help to get the right sort of help.

[Katman]

On the subject of egos....get real. None of us are doing it for any reason other than making available a system for those that want help to get the right sort of help.

The comment was directed at some of the nominations put forward so far.

(It's not all about you.) :msn-wink:

[SixPackBack]

No one has nominated me yet so you going to strugle with getting the best tuiton

Dont worry i will happely teach you everthing i know my little wipper sniper :msn-wink:

Thanks Grandad


As are we. Hence the care which has been taken to put this together.
Devil seems to think it's too complicated, but he's also said that he would have no desire to be a part of it. Right or wrong, I took his posts on the matter to be by way of criticism without benefit of alternative suggestion. He obviously didn't like my reply and felt the need to get personal. Oh well, c'est la vie.
On the subject of egos....get real. None of us are doing it for any reason other than making available a system for those that want help to get the right sort of help.

Ego's did I mention that or are you refering to some one else?
Any criticism would be leveled at the forwarding of unsuitable candidates creating false expectations and a standard KB shit fight-all this amongst friends.
The concept itself is superlative, properly exacuted it will save lives. Poorly exactued it will take them.

[Joni]

The concept itself is superlative, properly exacuted it will save lives. Poorly exactued it will take them.I agree, in fact I think we all do... thats why its vitally important that people let the admins knows if they have valid concerns.

[MyGSXF]

I'm sure the mentoring program will produce some very fast and 'skilled' riders, capable of 'giving the learn' to anyone. Whether that is the most important matter for novices may be more open to contention

Sorry, but I find that comment just plain silly! :slap:

The mentoring programme is about helping riders improve their skill level with issues such as MSTRS states below.. It is about helping fellow motorcyclists to be SAFE, smooth & competent riders.. NOT about being fast & giving people the learn! :oi-grr:


Settle down, Ixion. Nobody is talking about that sort of mentoring. Unless it is asked for and provided as part of racing - not on the road. We are talking about the little things that contribute to safe, enjoyable biking. Like lane position awareness, corner entry lines, hazard awareness, correct gear selection or use of front/back brakes etc.

[MSTRS]

Ego's did I mention that or are you refering to some one else?


No, I don't believe you did. Someone mentioned the term, and I merely insist on debunking it as having no relevance to the program.

[Katman]

Sorry, but I find that comment just plain silly! :slap:

The mentoring programme is about helping riders improve their skill level with issues such as MSTRS states below.. It is about helping fellow motorcyclists to be SAFE, smooth & competent riders.. NOT about being fast & giving people the learn! :oi-grr:

Unfortunately, as Ixion has pointed out, any amount of mentoring of rider skills, without addressing the issue of what attitude new riders approach motorcycling with, will quite likely compound the problem.

[MSTRS]

And where is it written that 'attitude towards riding' will not be addressed by any or all mentors?

[MyGSXF]

Unfortunately, as Ixion has pointed out, any amount of mentoring of rider skills, without addressing the issue of what attitude new riders approach motorcycling with, will quite likely compound the problem.

I would suggest that the noobies that have "an attitude" will not seek out mentoring anyway.. because they are bullet proof & "don't need it"! (in their own little minds) :weird:

I would also suggest that the people who DO seek out mentoring, would be the contentious types who WANT to learn some new skills & therefore will be open & receptive, & have a good attitude towards their learning! :yes:

Furthermore, I would also suggest that the attitude of the mentor will have a lot to do with how successful the sessions go as well. From what I see all the people nominated are good, decent people with good attitudes, people skills & are very skilled riders! :niceone:

[MSTRS]

....
Furthermore, I would also suggest that the attitude of the mentor will have a lot to do with how successful the sessions go as well. From what I see all the people nominated are good, decent people with good attitudes, people skills & are very skilled riders!

That is why they were nominated. Bearing in mind, that we're all human and not perfect at all times.

[Katman]

I would also suggest that the people who DO seek out mentoring, would be the contentious types who WANT to learn some new skills & therefore will be open & receptive, & have a good attitude towards their learning! :yes:



I fear you give a large number of motorcyclists too much credit.

I imagine there will be many who will seek mentoring simply in the hope that they will be able to live out their Rossi fantasies or at the very least to be able to 'compete' with anyone else that they may be riding with.

[MyGSXF]

And where is it written that 'attitude towards riding' will not be addressed by any or all mentors?

Exactly!! :yes: & If I am accepted as a mentor.. I sure as hell will be! :Punk:


Bearing in mind, that we're all human and not perfect at all times.

Naturally!! :msn-wink:

[Katman]

And where is it written that 'attitude towards riding' will not be addressed by any or all mentors?

If you could point out where it is written that 'attitude towards riding' will be addressed I might be able to rest easier.

:msn-wink:

[MyGSXF]

I fear you give a large number of motorcyclists too much credit.

I like to look for the good in people! :sunny:

I have participated in SEVERAL advanced rider training courses with Roadsafe from Wgtn & I also organised a similar course in ChCh a few months ago, which Roadsafe flew down from Wgtn to run. It is my experience that everyone of the people in all of these courses I have attended, were there because they were contentious people who wanted to learn.. their primary motivation.. was their safety! :niceone:


I imagine there will be many who will seek mentoring simply in the hope that they will be able to live out their Rossi fantasies or at the very least to be able to 'compete' with anyone else that they may be riding with.

That is always a possibility. But I think you will find that (given what I know about several of the other nominees) the mentors nominated, myself included, would probably give these types a swift kick up the arse & told to pull their head in, or bugger off! :2guns:

[The Stranger]

Exactly!! :yes: & If I am accepted as a mentor.. I sure as hell will be! :Punk:


Hmm. Good luck there.
Seriously, how do you propose to adjust someone else's attitude?

Explaining the pitfalls is a waste of time - look at smoking. Kids have been brainwashed since pre-school on smoking, yet they still start in thier droves.

Brow beating is a waste of time - can we have a show of hands how many people actually consider anything Katman said when riding - other than "damn, I wish Katman were here to see this crazy shit" - despite his heart no doubt being in the right place.

There is of course trust, genuine affection and mutual respect which will often have an impact. Are you oldies up for it?

[FROSTY]

It's an internet forum! If you want to know something, you post, people reply.
There's plenty of opportunity there for someone to shoot down an idiot attempting to help.
Mate Ive got to disagree with you here sorry.
The current "system" does mean that its really a poularity contest.
(the standing KB system)
--as an example.
Johnyrocket posts up in reply to say Maha's question. "yea mate just slam on the brakes and toss the bike on its side--thats the way I do it"
VERI (VERYEXPERIENCEDRIDEINSTRUCTOR) COMES IN AND SAYS no no PLEASE dont do that its a crash waiting to happen.
Then because VERI is seen as attacking JR -all JR's mates jump on in saying JR is right VERI has no clues etc etc.
Who does the new member and newbee rider believe?

Ya get my point mate? By having people who are designated as having more than a few clues at the very least the answers should be reasoned and concidered.

[MyGSXF]

how do you propose to adjust someone else's attitude? Brow beating is a waste of time

I agree.. & you don't know 'me' m'dear :msn-wink: The way I intend to help my possible mentees (is that a word..:rolleyes:), is through my positive, outgoing attitude and sharing my knowledge & skills, by means of a friendly encouraging one on one, no pressure environment. Which encompasses as you state.. trust, genuine affection & mutual respect! :niceone:

[Devil]

Mate Ive got to disagree with you here sorry.
The current "system" does mean that its really a poularity contest.
(the standing KB system)
...................... Ya get my point mate? By having people who are designated as having more than a few clues at the very least the answers should be reasoned and concidered.

Easily cured by KB showing no tolerance to people who misguide others in regards to riding skills and concepts.

[wybmadiity]

How are the mentors picked?....some are outstanding candidates, others have lost licences, binned plenty of bikes and/or appear to be poorly qualified.
Along the lines of Devil this is a question!

I must agree that just because someone bins often or has lost a licence that it does not mean they will be a bad mentor.. My mentor binned all the time and lost a licence, yet taught me the right lines etc..
Just my 2c

[Katman]

My mentor binned all the time and lost a licence, yet taught me the right lines etc..


Precisely the sort that doesn't make a good mentor.

[nodrog]

You poor unfortunate thing, being taught by such an inept teacher.

isnt there some sort of saying that goes "those who cant do, teach"?

[Big Dog]

I must agree that just because someone bins often or has lost a licence that it does not mean they will be a bad mentor.. My mentor binned all the time and lost a licence, yet taught me the right lines etc..
Just my 2c

Yet or in spite of it?

I know plenty of people who have been taught / mentored / whatevered by exceptionally bad riders and turned out good anyway. Some people just develop that way no matter how bad the advice.

[FROSTY]

Easily cured by KB showing no tolerance to people who misguide others in regards to riding skills and concepts.
But who decides that its misinformation?
Without digging into old sores that is EXACTLY the problem I had with moderating the Mechanical forums. I was alone moderating deciding what was good information and what was just dumb shit--ie the crc sprayed on a disk issue.
Mate Im not saying this is the best system just that its one that deserves to be given a go at least.

[thehovel]

To be a mentor,forget your ego,forget the flamimg ,just if you have something to cotribute,JUST DO IT. On the NASS night we do bike exersises. All newbies need to talk to all mentors, some of the advice is not relivant to you but just file it untill you do need it. Big Dog as keeping Wednesday night going by himself when I rocked up to learn to teach. My only claim is that I have grey hair (what's left). See you all to night. Regards Richard:soon:

[Mikkel]

I am being entertained... Here you are discussing a programme for helping out newbies and yet there are people standing in the corner comparing penis sizes... :rolleyes:

I think the mentor system is a good idea, but I can see where Devil is coming from... Why institutionalise something which doesn't need to be?
It's pretty simple though. Not everybody getting into motorcycling and/or KB are necessarily very outgoing and as such having a formal system in place might make it easier for these people to get in contact with someone who can help them get their head around biking.


The longer somebodies been riding the more situations they've experienced. Someone riding for a year is extremely unlikely to have have the depth of knowledge and experiences of someone who's been on bikes for 20 years. Mentoring is all about experience and passing it on.

I don't agree with Boomer about much (and if you hadn't quoted him I would have missed this) - but he's right in this case. Not everybody learn from their experiences - which I am sure nobody here can deny. On the other hand, whether you learn from your experiences or not, you'll need experiences to learn...

Talent is no substitute for experience - but neither is experience a substitute for talent. And neither are acceptable excuses for not applying the grey matter, all the time.


Brow beating is a waste of time - can we have a show of hands how many people actually consider anything Katman said when riding - other than "damn, I wish Katman were here to see this crazy shit" - despite his heart no doubt being in the right place.

Well, that's the funny thing about making people pay attention - it's not about saying the right things. It's about saying the right things in the right way - something Katman is absolutely incapable off.

This is why, I suspect, that one of the requirements for the KB mentors is that they need to have good person skills.


And all the effort spent on distinguishing between tuition, instruction, mentoring, etc. is redundant. The mentor programme is not mandatory for any of the involved parties, it's free(supposedly) and there are no formal programme. As such just consider it something more alike to a dating site - the idea being to hook up a virgin with a pornstar to teach the virgin a few tricks of the trade. I think it's a bloody good deal for any virgin TBQH :yes:

[Pedrostt500]

Wow this mole hill looks like a real mountain now. All I thought the mentoring would be about, is to help a Noobie through their first few steps into the world of motorcycling, there are proffesionals who can teach a noobie all the real neat tricks, that I wont or cant.
Ive held my bike licence for the last 27 yrs, not all of those years in the saddle, but most of them.
What have I learned in that time, Every one kisses the pavement at least once in their first couple of years of riding, hope fully with only a bit of bent pride and scratched paint. you can beat the Law of the Land, but the Laws of Physichs are a different story.
Treat Every other motorist as an idiot, untill proven other wise.
Its good to know your road rules, but it doesnt pay to be DEAD right, as defensive driving / riding is about some times thinking for other road users.
There are worse things that can happen to you than death, having ya mum wipe ya bum feed you by hand and wash you for the next 40yrs, and not having another Girl / boy friend ever again would top my list.
Some of the best people I know ride motorcycles, and Ive enjoyed riding my old bikes and hope to ride untill Im 100 yrs old, then I think Ill ride some more.

[Mental Trousers]

I don't agree with Boomer about much (and if you hadn't quoted him I would have missed this) - but he's right in this case. Not everybody learn from their experiences - which I am sure nobody here can deny. On the other hand, whether you learn from your experiences or not, you'll need experiences to learn...

Talent is no substitute for experience - but neither is experience a substitute for talent. And neither are acceptable excuses for not applying the grey matter, all the time.

That's why it's possible to be a mentor without 10 years experience. We've got 1 going through the process at the moment who hasn't had anywhere near the 10 years baseline.

[MyGSXF]

What have I learned in that time, Every one kisses the pavement at least once in their first couple of years of riding

Sorry, but you are wrong there.:pinch: In 16 years & 140,000ish ks of riding.. I've only ever had 1 "bin".. & that was a very minor rear ender, at walking pace!! :doh: I had been riding full on for 9 years before that happened. :yes:

[Mikkel]

Sorry, but you are wrong there.:pinch: In 16 years & 140,000ish ks of riding.. I've only ever had 1 "bin".. & that was a very minor rear ender, at walking pace!! :doh: I had been riding full on for 9 years before that happened. :yes:

I personally don't believe in absolutes - which is why I am very much opposed to anyone considering binning inevitable.

However, if you are the kind of person who can not resist exploring the capabilities of your vehicle of choice you are bound to touch upon the boundaries of what is possible and what is not. As such the chance of not binning is pretty darn slim.

Now Jen, you strike me as being very un-aggressive - a friendly sort who's very conscious about your riding and about how to improve it and be safe. (correct me if I'm completely derailed here - I've only met you at the RRRS course)
Still, if you managed to have an incident - no matter how minor - where would that place the odds of your average, young, testosterone fuelled, newbie biker?

As has been touched upon already - those who seek guidance/mentoring/instruction/teaching/WTFever are not necessarily the ones that need it the most. Quite the contrary. Anything that can be done to make such opportunities more visible and more accessible are welcome in my book.

[FROSTY]

I'd like to put a different spin on it. some of us have "been there done that". We've been the testosterone filled youth. We've had the stupid crashes. Weve ridden ill prepared buckets of shit that threw us off first chance it got. We've lived through it Learned from it and are now benifititing from our mistakes.
That experience of farking it up is worth passing on so newbees DON'T have to learn it the hard and painfull way like we did

[xwhatsit]

Here's a young beginning rider sticking his neck out in expectation of it being hacked off --

Everybody loves to get the shits with Katman, and laugh off Ixion as a cynical crackpot. But, from my perspective, they bring up a very valid point. Forget lines and gearshifts and peg-weighting and all of those technical sort of things; attitude and a general philosophy of not getting into strife in the first place should be far more important. The aforementioned person with his `mentor' who taught him how to corner yet had lost his license multiple times etc. should be right off the books. IMHO, beginning riders should be kept away from the toothpaste-tube GSXR brigrade as long as possible. I say this as somebody who was lucky to fall in with the `right crowd' right from day one, and as a result that's certainly had an effect on my frequency of hospital visits.

Once I finish building my sister's bike, I want her to be mentored by somebody who will show her the correct (using this word again) attitude towards motorcycling, not how to corner well and use the brakes to stop quickly -- that will follow on. You can read books on that.

MHO. I may have got the wrong end of the stick here, but it really worries and saddens me when I see a lot of the guys in the SMC and the way they approach motorcycling.

[justsomeguy]

I want her to be mentored by somebody who will show her the correct (using this word again) attitude towards motorcycling, not how to corner well and use the brakes to stop quickly -- that will follow on. You can read books on that.

Two people who have EXACTLY the skills and attitude you request are ManDownUnder and Ixion, YES Ixion. Sure he can be a cynical crackpot, so can I and you too given enough shit. But he knows quite a bit about biking and his attitude towards biking itself (forget KB and it's crap for a second) is spot on.

Both of them have several years of riding experience (the kind of riding 99% of us do 99% of the time), good mature attitudes, mechanical know-how and most importantly life experience. In addition they both are intelligent enough to know how to teach too, instead of simply telling. I trust that you understand the difference between teaching someone as opposed to simply telling a person something.

There is no substitute to good old-fashioned experience gained over time, despite what some may claim. There may be others around here who are greater, but straight off the top of my head I'd say those two guys would get my strongest votes. I say this to you in good faith.

I don't give a flying fork if they are designated mentors or not.


MHO. I may have got the wrong end of the stick here, but it really worries and saddens me when I see a lot of the guys in the SMC and the way they approach motorcycling.

By SMC do you mean AMCC? Aren't they just a bunch of fellas who hand out race licenses? Come on you don't expect them to be much different than the Gixxer brigade do ya?

[Katman]

Forget lines and gearshifts and peg-weighting and all of those technical sort of things; attitude and a general philosophy of not getting into strife in the first place should be far more important.

Absolutely. With the right attitude towards motorcycling new riders can safely learn the skills gradually, at a rate that doesn't put them in the position of having a split second to think "Oh fuck, now what was it that my mentor told me last week".

Without the right attitude, we will still have new riders thinking "I bet I can keep up with him now with my new found skills".

[NighthawkNZ]

tips how to get out of a situation or how to avoid it in the first place...


Forget lines and gearshifts and peg-weighting and all of those technical sort of things; attitude and a general philosophy of not getting into strife in the first place should be far more important.

Sounds fimilar... oh and presicely

[Katman]

And for the record, I am not against the mentor scheme.

When PB started riding the only thing I felt I needed to teach her was to look through the corner to where she wanted her bike to go.

(But then again, I knew she secretly had the 'Katman attitude' already.) :msn-wink:

[MyGSXF]

I personally don't believe in absolutes - which is why I am very much opposed to anyone considering binning inevitable.

Absolutely hon! :niceone: I go out on every ride knowing there is always going to be the possibility that I may end up broken.. or even, not come home. :( All I can do is.. keep upskilling myself regularly.. raise my awareness through learning & not ride like a ferkin maniac.. to increase my chances of coming home to my beautiful boys :love:



Now Jen, you strike me as being very un-aggressive - a friendly sort who's very conscious about your riding and about how to improve it and be safe. (correct me if I'm completely derailed here - I've only met you at the RRRS course) Thank you.. & it's "Roadsafe" hon!! :msn-wink:
Still, if you managed to have an incident - no matter how minor - where would that place the odds of your average, young, testosterone fuelled, newbie biker?

Exactly! I am horrified everytime I read a "I've binned" thread on here.. & even more so when I read that it's their 3rd one in 2 months :confused:

Inexperienced riders on new, fast, powerful bikes (many of the new 250's would whip the arse off my toy!! :baby:) & the bulletproof attitude that (typically) young testosterone fulled males have.. scares the beejeebus outta me. (Plus there's also the other ones.. no licence.. BIG bikes.. who think the road is a race track.. just as dangerous!!<_<)


As has been touched upon already - those who seek guidance/mentoring/instruction/teaching/WTF ever are not necessarily the ones that need it the most.

Unfortunately not.. All we can do is put some time & effort into those who DO come forwards! :2thumbsup


Quite the contrary. Anything that can be done to make such opportunities more visible and more accessible are welcome in my book.

Totally!! :Punk: As you know, I am a HUUUUUGE advocate for rider training (which is why I organised the ChCh course for you guys) After doing several of Roadsafe's courses, I tell anyone & everyone I come across about the skills & tips I learned & how they have changed my riding!! & have pointed many people in Roadsafe's direction as well! To be honest, I reckon rider training courses should be mandatory.. say, every 5 years!! To refresh & up skill!! :ride:

As for the mentoring programme.. a HUGE up's to everyone who has put a lot of hard work into setting it all up!! :first:

[Nasty]

This thread is for discussion about the mentor programme. Is it not for personal attacks, or stupid remarks. Please take the time to remember that the mentor programme is commencing and if you have feedback it will be greatly appreciated.

[FROSTY]

Everybody loves to get the shits with Katman, and laugh off Ixion as a cynical crackpot. But, from my perspective, they bring up a very valid point. Forget lines and gearshifts and peg-weighting and all of those technical sort of things; attitude and a general philosophy of not getting into strife in the first place should be far more important. towards motorcycling, not how to corner well and use the brakes to stop quickly -- that will follow on. You can read books on that.
From My POV--it is about learning "stuff" in the right order Definitely.
Building ride skills in the right order as they say is like building on bedrock --In the wrong order like building on quicksand.
I disagree with you in that lines,braking points,gearshifts etc are part of the learning curve, They are literally lifesaving stuff.
Attitude is definitely important but eventually knowing what to do in a situation WILL keep you alive.-and Im not talking racer stuff either

[James Deuce]

Right then. Let's see if I can get people wound up enough to get banned altogether.

1. Xerxesdaphat, JSG, Devil, SPB, et al have all either raised valid points, or cut to the core of what this programme is about. I rather think most people are on the training tangent at the moment.

2. A number of the nominated Mentors are dangerous to ride with or believe that mysticism is the best way to proceed down the motorcycling path. I prefer Gnosticism myself. I agree with SPB entirely. Bear in mind that some people have been party to discussions prior to launching this programme, and my attitude toward who could be regarded as a mentor was different to most of that group's, hence why I'm not involved.

3. It's not a popularity contest, but looking at how this is proceeding it has turned into one, with a few people in the background doing either some active politicing or some active moderation to make sure that the followers of the "Katman/Ixion attitude" camps are excluded or punished for speaking their minds or daring to try and defuse argumentative behaviour between the various camps. I'm still expecting my own personal Tardis out of all this.

4. I personally like the idea of gently nudging certain people to ride with certain other people. Staying alive is an attitude, not a skillset. We haven't had any "decent" deaths or near-fatal accidents to remind people of their mortality recently. I think that's because most of you pussies stop riding when it's a little bit damp or cold, leaving those with an attitude and skillset valid for sharing the road with other road users to enjoy themselves. Come Summer and we'll be back to listening to stories of self-wrought carnage.

5. The reason this has been formalised a little is to stop the attitudinally incompatible from spreading disinformation and pushing newbies into practicing skills instead of attitude and just going for a ride and having a good time. Plus despite everyone's ostrich like attitude the implied ownership and legal implications for KB's domain holder if it all goes wrong mean that he will be held responsible if someone decides to push charges against a "training" organisation that gave bad advice. That could be your Mum.

6. Mentoring can be for anything. If you want to race, someone who has previously blazed a trail can help make your introduction to racing easier. You might want a riding buddy who can help with a personal issue that needs talking over. You may want to learn the arcane arts of Stunting from someone who has experienced the pain and expense of learning it for themselves. This isn't about Sam Browne belts and Day-Glo vests. You may even want someone who can give you a few hints on how to commute swiftly with minimal risk. Up to you.

7. Most of all it's a way for a diverse group of people to impart their experience without lecturing (unless you specifically ask for a lecture). Mentoring goes both ways too. Maybe some of you Crusties/Racist or Sexist Bastards/Nanas can learn something from people you normally look down your nose at.

Don't forget though, above all, it's 99% how you look.

[nodrog]

so one of the reasons this new setup was "formalised" was to stop any legal implication to the site?

[James Deuce]

so one of the reasons this new setup was "formalised" was to stop any legal implication to the site?

Just to prevent it being misread as sanctioned training and make sure it was understood to be about finding people like-minded riding buddies.

[nodrog]

Just to prevent it being misread as sanctioned training and make sure it was understood to be about finding people like-minded riding buddies.

but isnt it basically sanctioned training due to the select vetting process of selecting the mentors?

[James Deuce]

Nope, no training is happening, and if it starts I'm sure the Senior Mentors will redefine roles or relationships between the Mentor and the Mentored. The "sanctioning" process is about saying here's some people with a decent attitude to riding you may enjoy riding with. This Mentor enjoys this sort of riding, like you, so you may find it advantageous to hang with this person.

Attitude by osmosis, not skill set by ruthless training scheme.

[Katman]

I also find it somewhat disturbing that of the nominated mentors only one has come forward in this thread to say that addressing the issue of 'attitude towards motorcycling' will be an integral part of her method.

MyGSXF has my support at least.

(For what it's worth.) :msn-wink:

[jrandom]

Personally, I suspect that this scheme is primarily driven by people with a desire, conscious or otherwise, for social status. I get a creepy feeling about the whole thing.

I don't see the need for any formalised 'mentoring' scheme.

There are people on this forum that I regard as friends whom I would never consider suitable as 'mentors', either because they can't ride a motorbicycle for shit (regardless of experience) or because they turn into complete twats whenever they're given a sniff of authority or influence over someone.

But I still regard them as friends and have my own relationship with them, defined on the basis of what I do like about them.

And that's the kind of ambiguity that can cause all sorts of hassles when it's crowded out of the way by new riders being shoved in the direction of appointed 'mentors'.

You know what they say; anyone who wants to be a politician shouldn't be one. The same conundrum applies here.

At heart, I guess I'm a bit of an anarchist. The gleeful establishment of formalised seniority structures in a social group troubles me, as does the apparent squashing of criticism of it in this thread.

[enigma51]

Don't forget though, above all, it's 99% how you look.

Or your post on KB











I undestand the concept of what is being achieved. What i dont get is the people being nominated (not all of them just some). It clearly has lent it self to a popularity contest.

Then there is the issue of crashes lost of licenese etc. Everyone is allowed to be bad but dont be Mr goodie two shoes and try and be a mentor. Its like the saying do as you told and not what i do :blink:

If you been a good boy or girl and feel you can teach people something make yourself available for the program.

For those that wanna learn if you have question why not just ask. I know of a few people on here that have gone from noob to skilled rider by simply just asking. Yes you going to get a bit of lip ever so often but get over it use you brain to figure out dum suggestions to valuable suggestion

[Trudes]

Personally, I suspect that this scheme is primarily driven by people with a desire, conscious or otherwise, for social status. I get a creepy feeling about the whole thing.

I don't see the need for any formalised 'mentoring' scheme.

There are people on this forum that I regard as friends whom I would never consider suitable as 'mentors', either because they can't ride a motorbicycle for shit (regardless of experience) or because they turn into complete twats whenever they're given a sniff of authority or influence over someone.

But I still regard them as friends and have my own relationship with them, defined on the basis of what I do like about them.

And that's the kind of ambiguity that can cause all sorts of hassles when it's crowded out of the way by new riders being shoved in the direction of appointed 'mentors'.

You know what they say; anyone who wants to be a politician shouldn't be one. The same conundrum applies here.

At heart, I guess I'm a bit of an anarchist. The gleeful establishment of formalised seniority structures in a social group troubles me, as does the apparent squashing of criticism of it in this thread.

I agree totally with you here jrandom...
And just because someone is your friend doesn't mean you have to agree with everything they do or so all of the time eh.
Although I do think the mentor thing has some value for new riders who need some help from someone who's "been there and done that many times".

[Trudes]

Sometimes you don't actually realise you're doing something "wrong" to be able to ask the questions. Or you don't realise there's an easier or safer way to do something until someone points it out to you.

[jrandom]

Sometimes you don't actually realise you're doing something "wrong" to be able to ask the questions. Or you don't realise there's an easier or safer way to do something until someone points it out to you.

To be perfectly fair, of course, this is mostly something that afflicts girls.

[NighthawkNZ]

A I go out on every ride knowing there is always going to be the possibility that I may end up broken.. or even, not come home. :( All I can do is.. keep upskilling myself regularly.. raise my awareness through learning & not ride like a ferkin maniac.. to increase my chances of coming home

...

Exactly! I am horrified everytime I read a "I've binned" thread on here.. & even more so when I read that it's their 3rd one in 2 months :confused:

Inexperienced riders on new, fast, powerful bikes (many of the new 250's would whip the arse off my toy!! :baby:) & the bulletproof attitude that (typically) young testosterone fulled males have.. scares the beejeebus outta me. (Plus there's also the other ones.. no licence.. BIG bikes.. who think the road is a race track.. just as dangerous!!<_<)

...

Totally!! :Punk: As you know, I am a HUUUUUGE advocate for rider training

what she said...

[justsomeguy]

Over all the mentoring program is a good thing. KB is no longer 3000 member strong with around 100 active members and ride regulars who know each other on a first name basis.

A structure is needed to bring some sense into the process with the current membership size.

Unfortunately, the people involved in setting up this scheme are "people" i.e. no one's perfect.

KB is not a grand scheme to take over the world, it's just a website, you don't HAVE to listen to the mentoring program's proponents. You still have full control of your decision making process.


If you don't like the mentor, then tell the mentoree that and let them decide for themselves. However don't slag off people who are willing to give their time to others.

Popularity contest? What's the problem with someone wanting to be popular for helping others?

It only seems like a popularity contest as rather vocal opponents come crashing down pointing all the faults out and offering no solutions. Since they shout the loudest and no one here likes to listen to the other all such things on KB seem like a bit of a circus.

For a lot of people who talk bad, I'd like to say offer a better alternative or SHUT IT.

[Ixion]

Mentoring goes both ways too. Maybe some of you Crusties/Racist or Sexist Bastards/Nanas can learn something from people you normally look down your nose at.



A valid point. It is one reason why I like to go along on those 250 learner rides. One sees a novice and says to oneself "oh, he's doing xxx, that's not wise. Oh, hang on, I'm doing it too. Mental note to correct bad habit".

Unwise habits creep in slowly over the years.

And I think it necessary to distinguish between "mentoring 101 for novice riders", and mentoring of (declaredly) budding racers, motocrossers etc. The latter presumably having already some measure of experience. And not having to deal with Mabel and Harry Huriup.

I am not so sure that great experience is a good thing in a mentor either. Obviously, the mentor should not be a novice himself, or the blind lead the blind.

But if one's own noobie experiences are many many years ago, it is hard , perhaps impossible, to remember what it was like. Over the years , things become almost instinctive, one does them without thinking or even being aware one is, and it is hard to remember that it may not be so for a beginner. Or to remember that riding may actually be a scarey experience for a beginner, not just at the "oh shit" moments, but the whole time. And the experienced rider may often do that which , for him, is safe enough. He knows when it is safe and when not. But the novice who thinks to emulate the behaviour, without the refinement of spidey sense to ring the alarm bell when necessary, will come to grief.

The best is probably a rider of some few years experience, enough to have gone through the stages of knowing nothing, learning, knowing everything and have come out the far end knowing that he knows not enough. But still close enough to his (or her) own noobie years to actually remember what it was like, and what he/she found difficult or confusing or scarey.

[justsomeguy]

I also find it somewhat disturbing that of the nominated mentors only one has come forward in this thread to say that addressing the issue of 'attitude towards motorcycling' will be an integral part of her method.

MyGSXF has my support at least.

(For what it's worth.) :msn-wink:

Do you know the rest of the mentors personally? As real people in the real world?

Except one person who I've let the mods know who, everyone else who I know personally that has been nominated as a mentor has a really great attitude. In personal discussions over time they have always explained things keeping attitude at the centre of their advice.

MDU and Ixion for example would make superb mentors, not sure if they are or want to be in this program; regardless of which I would still recommend them because of who they are, purely because I know them and of them through the years.

I hope you too are judging the other mentors with similar criteria.

[Katman]

I hope you too are judging the other mods with similar criteria.

To be honest, no I'm not. Simply because, as I've repeatedly mentioned, I believe getting a new riders head 'right' is more important than teaching 'skills'.

MyGSXF (and to a lesser degree Frosty) is the only one so far that has publicly stated that she also believes it to be important.

[justsomeguy]

To be honest, no I'm not. Simply because, as I've repeatedly mentioned, I believe getting a new riders head 'right' is more important than teaching 'skills'.

MyGSXF (and to a lesser degree Frosty) is the only one so far that has publicly stated that she also believes it to be important.

Oops I meant mentors not mods.

I understand, don't know MyGSXF but Frosty's a good guy. Bit of a grown up kid, but once you get past that he has a lot to offer.

There's too much political crap in any large organisation(corporate or social) so one has to take the good with the bad.

[Jantar]

...MDU and Ixion for example would make superb mentors, not sure if they are or want to be in this program; regardless of which I would still recommend them because of who they are, purely because I know them and of them through the years. ....

I agree. The nominations so far are just that - NOMINATIONS. In order for a nomination to be accepted they must meet a basic set of criteria, and have suitable references, then they are notified on here for feedback.

If anyone feels that a particular person would make a good mentor, then simply ask them if they have the experience, the attitude, and the inclination. find two referrees, and pass the nomonation on to the senior Mentor for your area.

Rather than simply saying MDU and Ixion would make good mentors, follow the guidelines and nominate them.

[FROSTY]

keep in mind --a lot of the nominees just wanna get stuck into what really matters--and it aint talkin on here--its doin what they can to help fellow KBers --me Im at work with owt to do atm

[The Stranger]

Here's a young beginning rider sticking his neck out in expectation of it being hacked off --

Everybody loves to get the shits with Katman, and laugh off Ixion as a cynical crackpot. But, from my perspective, they bring up a very valid point. Forget lines and gearshifts and peg-weighting and all of those technical sort of things; attitude and a general philosophy of not getting into strife in the first place should be far more important. The aforementioned person with his `mentor' who taught him how to corner yet had lost his license multiple times etc. should be right off the books. IMHO, beginning riders should be kept away from the toothpaste-tube GSXR brigrade as long as possible. I say this as somebody who was lucky to fall in with the `right crowd' right from day one, and as a result that's certainly had an effect on my frequency of hospital visits.

Once I finish building my sister's bike, I want her to be mentored by somebody who will show her the correct (using this word again) attitude towards motorcycling, not how to corner well and use the brakes to stop quickly -- that will follow on. You can read books on that.

MHO. I may have got the wrong end of the stick here, but it really worries and saddens me when I see a lot of the guys in the SMC and the way they approach motorcycling.

Pleased you are here to regale us. Another unfortunate soul who chose to apply the rear brake and not the front in an emergency situation (not speeding or otherwise being a dick as far as the SCU could tell) died under a truck.

They were able to calculate he could have stopped in half the distance between him and the truck had he used the front brake instead.
Would a better attitude have helped, well we will never know. Would using the front brake instead have helped - oh yes.

No one is arguing about attitude.
I quite agree and have never disagreed with katman or anyone else that attitude is important should you wish to stay well. I have invited Katman to put forth his plans so that we may learn and adopt his ideas - yet they are not forthcoming.
As previously pointed out the difference with things like the wrb rides, BADD and this mentor scheme etc is that people have set out goals, shared them and are trying to achieve them, hence others will join them in their quest. In essence, they lead from the front. Katman knocks from without and pushes from the back. He has no plan, he has no idea how he would achieve his goals, he is not prepared to put in an effort - beyond his keyboard.
He pours scorn on those actually trying to effect change for the better.

This is why he attracts the derision he so richly deserves.
Not for his message.

A dream, without a plan and without effort is just a day dream - that's all he ever has.

[mstriumph]

........... Staying alive is an attitude, not a skillset..........
love you, fella!! spot on!!

[mstriumph]

.........KB is not a grand scheme to take over the world, ..............

damn, why not? we'd do a MUCH better job .............. :sunny:

[Mental Trousers]

5. The reason this has been formalised a little is to stop the attitudinally incompatible from spreading disinformation and pushing newbies into practicing skills instead of attitude and just going for a ride and having a good time. Plus despite everyone's ostrich like attitude the implied ownership and legal implications for KB's domain holder if it all goes wrong mean that he will be held responsible if someone decides to push charges against a "training" organisation that gave bad advice. That could be your Mum.

Legally this site is in the clear the way the programme is structured. If something bad happens and someones mum wants someone to blame it won't (legally) be this site.

No training, promises or payment = no liability at all

[FROSTY]

Staying alive is an attitude, not a skillset.
Mate sorry I gotta disagree with ya here --but only in that the two are NOT mutually exclusive.
Atitude and decent skillsets combined can keep ya alive
Ya might be riding totally defensively but theres times you need to KNOW certain aspects of bike riding.

[MSTRS]

I also find it somewhat disturbing that of the nominated mentors only one has come forward in this thread to say that addressing the issue of 'attitude towards motorcycling' will be an integral part of her method.


I also pointed out that it wasn't 'written out' of what is expected of mentors. I personally expect that the mentors will find a way of imparting good attitude and advice, along with practical riding sessions with any person that asks for help. Not every pairing will be sucessful, because a certain amount of what takes place will depend on the raport (sp) between the individuals. With plenty of choice available to the mentoree, they will find the help that works for them.
Incidently, as nominator of some of the mentors, I refrain from 'voting' for any of them. I've helped put them in front of the members - for the member's approval.

[enigma51]

Mate sorry I gotta disagree with ya here --but only in that the two are NOT mutually exclusive.
Atitude and decent skillsets combined can keep ya alive
Ya might be riding totally defensively but theres times you need to KNOW certain aspects of bike riding.

And how is the mentors going to prepare you for that different to anyone else?

On the one side (and this going to make him angry and hate me) you have a someone that has crashed more bikes on the road than i have owned all my life. (Im no angel i have crashed as well)

People who have lost the license on more than one occasion


and the flip side
you have someone that is still only a noob but because he goes to bronze meeting is all of sudden a mentor.

Its a joke there is no need for it. If i want advice i will ask those i feel can give me the best advice for that issue i have. Hell i will even take advice if its given without asking

[enigma51]

I also pointed out that it wasn't 'written out' of what is expected of mentors. I personally expect that the mentors will find a way of imparting good attitude and advice, along with practical riding sessions with any person that asks for help. Not every pairing will be sucessful, because a certain amount of what takes place will depend on the raport (sp) between the individuals. With plenty of choice available to the mentoree, they will find the help that works for them.
Incidently, as nominator of some of the mentors, I refrain from 'voting' for any of them. I've helped put them in front of the members - for the member's approval.

So how many favours have you cashed in already? :Pokey:

[James Deuce]

Mate sorry I gotta disagree with ya here --but only in that the two are NOT mutually exclusive.
Atitude and decent skillsets combined can keep ya alive
Ya might be riding totally defensively but theres times you need to KNOW certain aspects of bike riding.

You have to have the right attitude in the first instance to learn anything. It has been demonstrated repeatedly, and fatally, over and over again that a lot of people aren't interested in developing their skill base, because they are already the "shiznit" and have nothing to learn.

Attitude is everything. With the correct attitude you can gather and discard as many skills as you require.

This is precisely why I don't want to be involved. There's too much energy expended in interpretation and over reactions to simple comments.

Part of me is banging it's head on the desk right now, frustrated that you can't see that you've said exactly the same thing I did.

Instead you've pigeon-holed me, belittled me, and decided to publicly point out that I'm old, slow, stupid, and pointless. You've not spent two minutes on the road with me, but I'm a hopeless nana in your mind.

"Oi!", you'll say, "I didn't say that!"

And so it goes.

Pointless fights generated by thoughtless reactions to simple comments.

If you want to run a training scheme, get your "I" endorsement, and run a school out of Millar's on the weekends.

Teaching skills is a formal or informal instruction session. Mentoring is simply being around and behaving like a genuine human being and possibly even a friend if you get it right.

[Swoop]

By SMC do you mean AMCC? Aren't they just a bunch of fellas who hand out race licenses?
SMC means Scooter and Motorcycle club (of Auckland Uni). Completely different from AMCC.

4. Staying alive is an attitude, not a skillset. We haven't had any "decent" deaths or near-fatal accidents to remind people of their mortality recently. I think that's because most of you pussies stop riding when it's a little bit damp or cold, leaving those with an attitude and skillset valid for sharing the road with other road users to enjoy themselves. Come Summer and we'll be back to listening to stories of self-wrought carnage.
One of the best recent comments and totally over the heads of most.

[NighthawkNZ]

I personally expect that the mentors will find a way of imparting good attitude and advice, along with practical riding sessions with any person that asks for help.

The thing is and has been pointed out the ones that ask for help will most likely be ones the that truly want it...(and most likely need it) the ones that don't ask are the ones that are full of testosterone and probably wouldn't take the advice if it was given to him on a platter... but need it <_< hmmm sounds familiar...

I agree with the attitude statements being very important (for both mentor and mentoree) and as I have said before preventing a newbie from getting into a situation... before situation happens is an attitude thing... ie; getting them to a cut off 6 million miles per second so we are at a respectable speed, instead of a blur... and then binning and and asking wtf it worked yesterday at that speed... Attitude to actually look at their surroundings, ahead, behind, and to take responsibility for their actions in traffic that sometimes you can sneak up on cars and they aren't aware that you are there till its to late...

Simple things like your left hand cornering and your head over the centre line and worse a corner cut... I have seen so called experienced riders do that on blind corners scrapping pegs...

But I believe that the young ones that are riding round like a rocket boaster won't ask for a mentor any way. It will most likely the ones that have the right attitude (per say) anyway...

The mentor will be able to tell with in the first 5 or 10 minutes of riding with mentoree what their attitude is.

[Kickaha]

Popularity contest? What's the problem with someone wanting to be popular for helping others?

A popularity contest is exactly whats happening with some of the nominations and it isn't a good thing

Just because a particular person is popular with others doesn't mean they're able to help them in the way that they need

[Jantar]

I also find it somewhat disturbing that of the nominated mentors only one has come forward in this thread to say that addressing the issue of 'attitude towards motorcycling' will be an integral part of her method.

MyGSXF has my support at least.

(For what it's worth.) :msn-wink:

You may have missed the point that before anyone is finally confirmed as a mentor they must convince the Senior Mentor for their region, and the mentor admins, that they meet the requirements laid down in the very first thread announcing the Mentor Programme. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=79923

The very first non-negotiable item is: Good Attitude to riding and mentoring

[The Stranger]

And how is the mentors going to prepare you for that different to anyone else?

On the one side (and this going to make him angry and hate me) you have a someone that has crashed more bikes on the road than i have owned all my life. (Im no angel i have crashed as well)

People who have lost the license on more than one occasion


and the flip side
you have someone that is still only a noob but because he goes to bronze meeting is all of sudden a mentor.

Its a joke there is no need for it. If i want advice i will ask those i feel can give me the best advice for that issue i have. Hell i will even take advice if its given without asking

You seem to be very passionate there enigma.
I can't say I am following what you are saying there 100%, but, if I read you right you are still querying the need for the scheme in its entirety and saying you are happy or would rather seek advise where you see fit.
Am I right?

On the assumption that I am for now.

I find it difficult to accept that you are a noob. You are a pretty bloody good rider for a noob, if you are and bloody well done. You are obviously qualified to judge whom you should listen to and who you shouldn't - you have sufficient experience to make that decision.

However others (note the plural) have binned whilst at training sessions where they were instructed to carry out an exercise but not given the necessary information to safely perform the exercise - until after the bin.
At other times some of the exercises have been downright dangerous. I will refrain from going into further detail, however the mods are only too well aware due the the complaints laid.
But the fact that noobs turn up to these training sessions and blindly put themselves at risk suggests they are perhaps not as savvy as yourself and could use some assistance in selecting their mentor.

As to the BRONZ comment, I assume you are referring to RRRS.
I am uncertain to whom you refer when you mention "goes to bronze meeting" but it would appear that you have been misinformed.
No one (at least from the Auckland) has been nominated on the basis of having attended an RRRS or BRONZ course.
Three have however been conducting these courses for at least a couple of years now.

[Disco Dan]

A popularity contest is exactly whats happening with some of the nominations and it isn't a good thing

Just because a particular person is popular with others doesn't mean they're able to help them in the way that they need

+1 Shame really.

[Joni]

+1 Shame really.Yes... it saddens me, because lots of time has been put into this...

I just hope to God that Jantar, MT, Virago and who ever makes the final decision sees through all the crap... popularity does not mean a person will make a good mentor.

[Katman]

The very first non-negotiable item is: Good Attitude to riding and mentoring

Thanks for that Jantar.

I missed that in the first reading. I'm also somewhat reassured by the fact that it's the first item on that list.

[chanceyy]

Popularity should have absolutely nothing to do with it. I have only gotten any form of mentoring from those who I feel can offer me good advice & have the ability to communicate with me.

there are those who can ride extremely well, & yet I would not seek any mentoring from them for a variety of reasons.

I have only posted a comment in those threads of the ppl whom I have actually received instruction from or would like to receive some mentoring from. As they are the only ones who interest me.

I have never ridden with the rest, regardless of their personality I am not in a position to comment if they would make good mentors or not.

However if anyone has any concerns on a persons ability a pm to Jantar with specific concerns (leave out the emotion) will help them with their decisions.

[NighthawkNZ]

The very first non-negotiable item is: Good Attitude to riding and mentoring

Kinda why I didn't get into the attitude discussion... though I have now :doh: ... :) :

[Disco Dan]

Yes... it saddens me, because lots of time has been put into this...

I just hope to God that Jantar, MT, Virago and who ever makes the final decision sees through all the crap... popularity does not mean a person will make a good mentor.

A prime example of the attitude is when I started up AWNMR - I then got KB Mentors together, we spent hours discussing and planning and organising etc and we still got shotdown. The whole point of it was that there was a 'panel' of mentors whom rotated each week, each coming from a different background of riding experience to give a complete picture to students.

I laugh now that one person is running it, putting the original concept to shame and who suffers? ...the new riders going along.

I do hope the Mentor scheme ends up working out well, too late for the AWNMR but not for it's current attendees.

[MadDuck]

+1 Shame really.

From what i have read and understand YOU can always nominate someone you feel is not going for a popularity contest.....so why not do it? For me the only people I would nominate no longer particpate to this forum.


Yes... it saddens me, because lots of time has been put into this...

I am sure there has been a heck of a lot of time put into this before it was released. In a perfect world everyone would agree with everything and we would all walk around like a bunch of well trained zombies.

BUT it is an open forum and people are entitled to have their opinions be it for or against.

[The Stranger]

Thanks for that Jantar.

I missed that in the first reading. I'm also somewhat reassured by the fact that it's the first item on that list.


You missed the most important point and the first item on the list. What hope is there?







Proof positive that Hanlon knew his shit.



Still the important thing is you are now somewhat reassured and we can all sleep easy tonight as a result.

[Katman]

I laugh now that one person is running it, putting the original concept to shame and who suffers? ...the new riders going along.



You do realise, with that choice of words, you're conceding that the new scheme is better than the old one, don't you?

[enigma51]

You ladies want a real mentor? ......... go to the track motott.co.nz is a good place to start and get yourself booked in

Then on the day talk to the fellows with the orange vests.

1. You will learn how to corner
2. You will learn to deal with speed
3. You might get hooked ... so be warned

[justsomeguy]

You ladies want a real mentor? ......... go to the track motott.co.nz is a good place to start and get yourself booked in

Then on the day talk to the fellows with the orange vests.

1. You will learn how to corner
2. You will learn to deal with speed
3. You might get hooked ... so be warned

Not everyone wants that. A lot here just want to ride from home to work and back, safely and happily.

But yes, I see where you're coming from. RRRS and GiJoe's 250 rides should sort most newbies out.

[jrandom]

You ladies want a real mentor? ......... go to the track motott.co.nz is a good place to start and get yourself booked in

Then on the day talk to the fellows with the orange vests.

What he said.


Not everyone wants that. A lot here just want to ride from home to work and back, safely and happily.

Bike-handling skills learned at trackdays apply every minute that one is riding.

Regarding attitudes, to be honest, I think that attitudes are what they are, and can't be fixed. Idiots will always be idiots. It's not so much about 'attitude', IMHO, as it is about ability to work out consequences.

Motorcycles are and have always been an culling mechanism for stupid young men. Darwin at his finest. And so it shall continue to be. The do-gooder 'mentors' on this forum will prance around and pat themselves on the back and get little tingles up and down their spines from their new social status, and young men will continue to die messily on the road.

And sometimes it won't just be stupid people; sometimes smart riders will get fucked up by other road users for no good reason.

And, frankly?

I have difficulty giving a fuck. Really I do.

The world is a violent, ugly place, and the travails of a bunch of pampered middle-class folk in a wealthy country in the middle of nowhere who put themselves in danger on their expensive mechanical toys just don't impress me as being anywhere near the top of the philosophical priority list.

I'd rather just skin up and read a good book than waste my time worrying about that shit. Or maybe go for a ride. Alone.

[The Stranger]

Personally, I suspect that this scheme is primarily driven by people with a desire, conscious or otherwise, for social status.





The do-gooder 'mentors' on this forum will prance around and pat themselves on the back and get little tingles up and down their spines from their new social status,



No bites the first time aye?
You're loosing it there Dan.

[jrandom]

No bites the first time aye?
You're loosing it there Dan.

But I was for reals.

[justsomeguy]

Bike-handling skills learned at trackdays apply every minute that one is riding.

Regarding attitudes, to be honest, I think that attitudes are what they are, and can't be fixed. Idiots will always be idiots. It's not so much about 'attitude', IMHO, as it is about ability to work out consequences.


Yes, but Mr. Commuter doesn't want to pay $200+ for a trackday. He just wants to rock up to the local station go for a ride around the countryside, have a beer and go home. That is who this circus seeks to entertain.

I too don't give a flying fazoozas.

Anyway as you were... off to get world peace or whatever is on top of your agenda - just make sure you wear your underwear outside your pants and that your cape matches your boots.

.... and and and go to sleep or I'll tell ya mama that Jrandom is up past his bedtime again and she will ground you with no interdweebnet access.

[NighthawkNZ]

Bike-handling skills learned at trackdays apply every minute that one is riding.
...
I have difficulty giving a fuck. Really I do....


Yes, but Mr. Commuter doesn't want to pay $200+ for a trackday. He just wants to rock up to the local station go for a ride around the countryside, have a beer and go home. That is who this circus seeks to entertain.

I too don't give a flying fazoozas.

yah both have said a fair bit for people that don't give a rats arse... (even in the single post from jrandom) heck if i didn't give a toss I wouldn't have even entered the thread.

While track days can help to a degree, as stated, not every one wants to go to a track day... can afford the track day... or should have to travel so far and or whit so long in between the days, weeks or months for a bit of mentoring...

[jrandom]

Yes, but Mr. Commuter doesn't want to pay $200+ for a trackday.

A MotoTT day is $95, and there are experienced racers and roadriders wearing bright orange vests to jump on the wheel of and follow lines at whatever pace you like (they'll adjust to suit you for a lap or two). Not to mention the likes of Shaun Harris being available to help with bike setup.

I hear what you're saying about inaccessibility, but in terms of skills, one trackday really is worth six weeks of road riding.

[sinfull]

You ladies want a real mentor? ......... go to the track motott.co.nz is a good place to start and get yourself booked in

Then on the day talk to the fellows with the orange vests.

1. You will learn how to corner
2. You will learn to deal with speed
3. You might get hooked ... so be warned

Bit like a clean drug it is indeed !


What he said.



Bike-handling skills learned at trackdays apply every minute that one is riding.

Regarding attitudes, to be honest, I think that attitudes are what they are, and can't be fixed. Idiots will always be idiots. It's not so much about 'attitude', IMHO, as it is about ability to work out consequences.

Motorcycles are and have always been an culling mechanism for stupid young men. Darwin at his finest. And so it shall continue to be. The do-gooder 'mentors' on this forum will prance around and pat themselves on the back and get little tingles up and down their spines from their new social status, and young men will continue to die messily on the road.

And sometimes it won't just be stupid people; sometimes smart riders will get fucked up by other road users for no good reason.

And, frankly?

I have difficulty giving a fuck. Really I do.

The world is a violent, ugly place, and the travails of a bunch of pampered middle-class folk in a wealthy country in the middle of nowhere who put themselves in danger on their expensive mechanical toys just don't impress me as being anywhere near the top of the philosophical priority list.

I'd rather just skin up and read a good book than waste my time worrying about that shit. Or maybe go for a ride. Alone.
Wow (can i quote that sometime)


A MotoTT day is $95, and there are experienced racers and roadriders wearing bright orange vests to jump on the wheel of and follow lines at whatever pace you like (they'll adjust to suit you for a lap or two). Not to mention the likes of Shaun Harris being available to help with bike setup.

I hear what you're saying about inaccessibility, but in terms of skills, one trackday really is worth six weeks of road riding.
I'll bring the book !

[Firefight]

Or your post on KB











I undestand the concept of what is being achieved. What i dont get is the people being nominated (not all of them just some). It clearly has lent it self to a popularity contest.




Hey Logan,

I agree with some of what you say, and can only offer my point of veiw


I don,t Like Frosty and never have, he is on my ignore list and has been for as long as I can remember, but when I added my humble support to his nomination it was be cause of what he has done for kb and its riders, I know that he takes the welfare of other bike riders and their safety serousily.
and from what I have seen of him he is a good rider, I rode with him in the early days of kb, and even then can recall him helping and offering guidance to newbies.

So from my point of view its not a popularity competion at all , there are many other riders that could offer some good guidance in one way or another I just feel that Frosty has the most to offer and the right attiude to do it.




on a lesser note Logan, and very :Offtopic::Offtopic: I am ashamed to admit I have been lent a gxxer by a well meaning (gulible mate) if you want to catch up for a hoon down 22 drop me a pm, would be good to catch up again



F/F

[Devil]

on a lesser note Logan, and very :Offtopic::Offtopic: I am ashamed to admit I have been lent a gxxer by a well meaning (gulible mate) if you want to catch up for a hoon down 22 drop me a pm, would be good to catch up again
F/F

Thats just sick, man. (He says when he's scheduled to ride one to Nelson next month :innocent:)

[SixPackBack]

Hey Logan,

I agree with some of what you say, and can only offer my point of veiw


I don,t Like Frosty and never have, he is on my ignore list and has been for as long as I can remember, but when I added my humble support to his nomination it was be cause of what he has done for kb and its riders, I know that he takes the welfare of other bike riders and their safety serousily.
and from what I have seen of him he is a good rider, I rode with him in the early days of kb, and even then can recall him helping and offering guidance to newbies.

So from my point of view its not a popularity competion at all , there are many other riders that could offer some good guidance in one way or another I just feel that Frosty has the most to offer and the right attiude to do it.




on a lesser note Logan, and very :Offtopic::Offtopic: I am ashamed to admit I have been lent a gxxer by a well meaning (gulible mate) if you want to catch up for a hoon down 22 drop me a pm, would be good to catch up again



F/F

Logans testicles have regressed into his stomach cavity and as a result does not ride on the road.:done:

[Morcs]

The do-gooder 'mentors' on this forum will prance around and pat themselves on the back and get little tingles up and down their spines from their new social status, and young men will continue to die messily on the road.

thats what its all about eh.

the one person who I have found myself unintentionally being mentored by doesnt force it around that he is a 'mentor'. And he also has the ability to see right through you, in fact, he is the only guy that has ever got right through to me, made me listen, and made me do, and i owe a lot to him, because im still alive.

Im suprised no-one has nominate him yet - Macktheknife, and I wont. True mentors dont do it intentionally and dont have status.

With us young folks, most of us have a problem with authority. Give a mentor 'status' and most of us wont listen :bash:

[FROSTY]

A popularity contest is exactly whats happening with some of the nominations and it isn't a good thing

Just because a particular person is popular with others doesn't mean they're able to help them in the way that they need
Poularity or proven, skillsets demonstrating to those that have seen them,ridden with them that they are capable of mentoring ?

[fLaThEaD FreD]

Right then. Let's see if I can get people wound up enough to get banned altogether.

1. Xerxesdaphat, JSG, Devil, SPB, et al have all either raised valid points, or cut to the core of what this programme is about. I rather think most people are on the training tangent at the moment.

2. A number of the nominated Mentors are dangerous to ride with or believe that mysticism is the best way to proceed down the motorcycling path. I prefer Gnosticism myself. I agree with SPB entirely. Bear in mind that some people have been party to discussions prior to launching this programme, and my attitude toward who could be regarded as a mentor was different to most of that group's, hence why I'm not involved.

3. It's not a popularity contest, but looking at how this is proceeding it has turned into one, with a few people in the background doing either some active politicing or some active moderation to make sure that the followers of the "Katman/Ixion attitude" camps are excluded or punished for speaking their minds or daring to try and defuse argumentative behaviour between the various camps. I'm still expecting my own personal Tardis out of all this.

4. I personally like the idea of gently nudging certain people to ride with certain other people. Staying alive is an attitude, not a skillset. We haven't had any "decent" deaths or near-fatal accidents to remind people of their mortality recently. I think that's because most of you pussies stop riding when it's a little bit damp or cold, leaving those with an attitude and skillset valid for sharing the road with other road users to enjoy themselves. Come Summer and we'll be back to listening to stories of self-wrought carnage.

5. The reason this has been formalised a little is to stop the attitudinally incompatible from spreading disinformation and pushing newbies into practicing skills instead of attitude and just going for a ride and having a good time. Plus despite everyone's ostrich like attitude the implied ownership and legal implications for KB's domain holder if it all goes wrong mean that he will be held responsible if someone decides to push charges against a "training" organisation that gave bad advice. That could be your Mum.

6. Mentoring can be for anything. If you want to race, someone who has previously blazed a trail can help make your introduction to racing easier. You might want a riding buddy who can help with a personal issue that needs talking over. You may want to learn the arcane arts of Stunting from someone who has experienced the pain and expense of learning it for themselves. This isn't about Sam Browne belts and Day-Glo vests. You may even want someone who can give you a few hints on how to commute swiftly with minimal risk. Up to you.

7. Most of all it's a way for a diverse group of people to impart their experience without lecturing (unless you specifically ask for a lecture). Mentoring goes both ways too. Maybe some of you Crusties/Racist or Sexist Bastards/Nanas can learn something from people you normally look down your nose at.

Don't forget though, above all, it's 99% how you look.

Mentors all have differing skills and these need to be known, as people such as myself can easily be givin the wrong impressions from postings because we are new or newish and are still trying to form our own opinions from what we read on the public forum.
I also know that there can be a lot of politicing from certain cliques behind the scenes as in so many groups.

[Ixion]

You ladies want a real mentor? ......... go to the track motott.co.nz is a good place to start and get yourself booked in

Then on the day talk to the fellows with the orange vests.

1. You will learn how to corner
2. You will learn to deal with speed
3. You might get hooked ... so be warned

And this is applicable to a young lady on a Honda C50, who just wants to ride to work (school, whatever) and home again, without being spread over the road, how? Or, indeed to our returning biker, who purged his "need for speed" 40+ years ago, and now just wants a bike for pleasant weekend rambles. But could do with some pointers about the different between 2008 and 1958.

This is what most concerns me about this whole mentoring thing. It is (despite pious protestations to the contrary) almost totally focused on the notion that "mentoring" is about showing/teaching/training someone how to ride fast. Not every rider wants that. Nor is it necessarily conducive to survival.


I am seeing some major variations in definition. Most agree that a mentor should be experienced, and a 'good rider". But what, in this context , is a "good rider". A fast rider (and many racers will not ride on the public road, because they think it too dangerous) ? a law abiding rider, whpo never gets a ticket ? a rider who does not crash? And "good" in what context? I know some riders, both fast and safe on the open road, who scarely ever ride in city traffic and actively avoid doing so. Perhaps not the most suitable for our young commutrix.

F'instance



And i agree with boomer years riding and abiltiy has nothing to do with each other.

I know people that has been riding for years and still they ride like shit



Yet, those people, riding like shit , have somehow survived for "years" , riding. Which might suggest that if they ride like shit, it is at least shit with a high survival factor.

I suggets that the administartors need to much more rigorously define their specifications.

[FROSTY]

Ixion and Fred.
MY take on it --keep in mind its MY interpretation not speaking for anyone else.
What WILL happen is that things are going to settle down.
Its going to become clear that some mentors are good at helping with the ATTITUDE needed to stay alive.
Some mentors are going to be good at imparting the skills needed at a BASIC level to react propperly in a "ohh shit" situation --as refered to by The stranger--the bloke who diddnt know how to /forgot to use the front brake in an emergency situation.
Some mentors are going to be better at the next level when the attitude and the basic skillsets have"taken" -such things as lines and weighting the peg etc.
Others will be better at the racetrack stuff
-ISNT IT FANTASTIC that we have the diversity of skillsets available on offer?
ISN'T IT FANTASTIC that the senior mentors are experienced enough to see which mentor will be the best"fit" for the needs of the mentorees?

[FROSTY]

thats what its all about eh.

With us young folks, most of us have a problem with authority. Give a mentor 'status' and most of us wont listen :bash:
Ok dude--Not having a go at ya here BUT--Ok You have highlighted a possible issue.
In your opinion what is the solution?

[jrandom]

Yet, those people, riding like shit , have somehow survived for "years" , riding.

'Years' doesn't necessarily imply any particular level of mileage in any particular situations and conditions.

Often it mostly implies having had a motorcycle in the garage for years.

[Ixion]

..
ISN'T IT FANTASTIC that the senior mentors are experienced enough to see which mentor will be the best"fit" for the needs of the mentorees?

Implicit in that is that a "mentoree" (a unreservedly vile term! Can we please use the correct term for the protoge of Mentor, which is Telemachus. Who, incidentally was gay. Just pointing that out) will approach a senior mentor who will assign a mentor to the applicant? But what if they dislike each other, cannot find mutally agreeable times , etc? This sounds an extremely cumbersome and bureaucratic exercise

[dipshit]

Bike-handling skills learned at trackdays apply every minute that one is riding.

Regarding attitudes, to be honest, I think that attitudes are what they are, and can't be fixed. Idiots will always be idiots. It's not so much about 'attitude', IMHO, as it is about ability to work out consequences.

Implanting "skills" without implanting a safe attitude towards your riding will probably do more harm than good. Similar parallels have been drawn with advanced car handling skills.

http://www.driveandstayalive.com/articles%20and%20topics/driving-myths-and-mistakes/skid-pan-training.htm

"A word of warning: taking a course in more advanced driving skills such as emergency braking, skid control, collision avoidance maneuvers may create a new risk for you. If the extra skills make you overconfident, that cancels out the advantages of having the skills in the first place. Research has indicated that drivers who take advanced skills courses have a tendency to misuse the skills and actually have a higher crash rate."...

..."The fundamental difference, however, lies in the fact that qualifying as an advanced driver and an advanced motorcyclist (for most traffic officers achieve both qualifications) in British police forces can take upwards of 600 hours and the vast majority of this overall duration is spent learning the discipline and attitude necessary for a remarkably safe standard of driving, irrespective of the high speeds at which traffic police officers often have to travel.

And that is the key to this issue: attitude training."

[jrandom]

This sounds an extremely cumbersome and bureaucratic exercise

The only need that this system is meeting, as far as I can tell, was conjured within the minds of its creators.

It reminds me greatly of all the engineering projects I've ever worked on that had vast quantities of requirements which never actually came from a customer, and never ended up getting used by a customer.

It's just human nature to invent shit, be that implementable software requirements or a 'mentoring' authority structure, to give oneself status, without actually considering whether the 'solution' solves a real problem.

I reiterate that this entire effort appears to be primarily driven by folk getting their rocks off on slotting into the 'mentor' image.

The obvious desire to Save Others From Themselves (tm) via the setting up of a formal authority and status structure of some sort is deeply unattractive.


attitude training

George Orwell had a lot to say on that subject, too.

<_<

[fLaThEaD FreD]

Ixion and Fred.
MY take on it --keep in mind its MY interpretation not speaking for anyone else.
What WILL happen is that things are going to settle down.
Its going to become clear that some mentors are good at helping with the ATTITUDE needed to stay alive.
Some mentors are going to be good at imparting the skills needed at a BASIC level to react propperly in a "ohh shit" situation --as refered to by The stranger--the bloke who diddnt know how to /forgot to use the front brake in an emergency situation.
Some mentors are going to be better at the next level when the attitude and the basic skillsets have"taken" -such things as lines and weighting the peg etc.
Others will be better at the racetrack stuff
-ISNT IT FANTASTIC that we have the diversity of skillsets available on offer?
ISN'T IT FANTASTIC that the senior mentors are experienced enough to see which mentor will be the best"fit" for the needs of the mentorees?

In thinking.......Even those fround upon stunters can mentor those who wish to do stunting?........if that is an area they are proficient in?

[The Stranger]

But I was for reals.

Oh, I realise that.
It shows loud and clear.

[nodrog]

can sombody mentor me yet, or are we still fighting about it?

[FROSTY]

In thinking.......Even those fround upon stunters can mentor those who wish to do stunting?........if that is an area they are proficient in?
HECK YEA (again my opinion)
Keeping in mind stunting per say isn't an issue as our mate White Trash and his lady Riff Raff demonstrated when they organised a wonderfull day of stunting and stunt practice at Mere mere.
Its like anything right place right time
-The drifter out at pukie showing off his skill --to me is stunning.
same drifter on my road at 10pm at night not so cool.

[fLaThEaD FreD]

HECK YEA (again my opinion)
Keeping in mind stunting per say isn't an issue as our mate White Trash and his lady Riff Raff demonstrated when they organised a wonderfull day of stunting and stunt practice at Mere mere.
Its like anything right place right time
-The drifter out at pukie showing off his skill --to me is stunning.
same drifter on my road at 10pm at night not so cool.

Right time, right place, right person..........controlled and safe enviroment for all.

[Kickaha]

This is what most concerns me about this whole mentoring thing. It is (despite pious protestations to the contrary) almost totally focused on the notion that "mentoring" is about showing/teaching/training someone how to ride fast.

Can you prove that statement, show us some facts to back it up or is that just "your interpretation " of whats been said



'Years' doesn't necessarily imply any particular level of mileage in any particular situations and conditions.

Some people have 1 years experience repeated 20 times rather than 20 years experience

[Kiwi Graham]

Foookin ek, how much ranting and raving has gone on, on one subject in such a small amount of time!!!!!
Put simply isnt it about imparting knowledge? And an attempt at sourcing people that are happy to and can do it competently?

I'd hazard a guess that everyone on here didnt just wake up one morning, shot down the bike shop and bought a motorbike without talking to someone they knew had some knowledge of biking first. I started riding bikes as a kid in schoolboy motorcross.....I was like a bloody sponge!! I listened to anyone that was willing to talk to me. Ok some of the tips and tricks didnt work for me but most did, the point is I sort out this information and 'some' people were happy to give it. I think that point should be if an individual is looking for help, advice, tips and the opportunity to learn from another, then a scheme that has gone at least some way to establishing the people that person is introduced to can fulfill his/her need can only be a good thing.

I'll sit back now and expect the above to get taken apart :Playnice:

[Morcs]

Ok dude--Not having a go at ya here BUT--Ok You have highlighted a possible issue.
In your opinion what is the solution?

I dont think there is one, except let nature take its course - you ask (or are given) advice by someone, and its there choice whether to take it.

Common sense is required of course, If someone is handing out advise which is dangerous, 9.9/10 someone who had half a brain cell and a bit of common sense would see straight through it.

Just like if anyone was actually stupid enough to put crc onto a brake disk, then they are probably too stupid to ride motorcycle.

[MSTRS]

Foookin ek, how much ranting and raving has gone on, on one subject in such a small amount of time!!!!!
Put simply isnt it about imparting knowledge? And an attempt at sourcing people that are happy to and can do it competently?

...some stuff that may not apply now that the internet exists...

I'll sit back now and expect the above to get taken apart
:niceone:You, sir, have succinctly summed up the whole thing. Put simply, there is no plot to take over the world or to tell them to do it 'our way'. A whole raft of people with different skills and outlooks will be 'on tap' for those that want help. That help could be anything...but if 'fast' on the road is asked for, do not expect the current crop of mentors to be interested in helping with that. Smooth and safe, now, that's different...and normally leads to faster on average. Which is not 'fast', as Ixion seems to believe.

[Morcs]

Half the people nominated havent experienced everything to be able to mentor.

To be be able to teach someone where the line is, you yourself must've crossed it and come back many times.

Most of the do gooders have never crossed a line in their life - gone sideways, nearly planting the front wheel through a cars back windscreen, flipping a bike, lowsiding , highsiding etc..

hell ive experienced every kind of bike failure and dealt with it. Ive broken almost every road rule, and crashed in everyway possible. Experienced every heart stopping 'oh fuck' moment.
I commute briskly 75km through auckland rush hour everyday. Do touring, trackdays and sunny sunday fangs.
and im still alive.

Ive got more to teach than half of the 20+years riders.

Of course this is where the system works, as I dont have the right attitude to 'mentor'

My point is, having the right attitude to take someone under their wing and guide them and have the allround experience like i mentioned above - there arent many people like that. I can only think of 2 straight away - Noel and Frosty.

[Katman]

Ive got more to teach than half of the 20+years riders.



Lets see if you're still around in 20+ years.

[Kickaha]

Most of the do gooders have never crossed a line in their life - gone sideways, nearly planting the front wheel through a cars back windscreen, flipping a bike, lowsiding , highsiding etc..

hell ive experienced every kind of bike failure and dealt with it. Ive broken almost every road rule, and crashed in everyway possible. Experienced every heart stopping 'oh fuck' moment.


Sounds like you're slow learner with not much idea what mentoring is about

[Jantar]

...... Ive broken almost every road rule, and crashed in everyway possible. ....
Ive got more to teach than half of the 20+years riders. ....

if we ever get any requests from a newbie who wants to learn how to crash, then we'll know were to direct them. :cool:

[yungatart]

Half the people nominated havent experienced everything to be able to mentor.

To be be able to teach someone where the line is, you yourself must've crossed it and come back many times.

Most of the do gooders have never crossed a line in their life - gone sideways, nearly planting the front wheel through a cars back windscreen, flipping a bike, lowsiding , highsiding etc..

hell ive experienced every kind of bike failure and dealt with it. Ive broken almost every road rule, and crashed in everyway possible. Experienced every heart stopping 'oh fuck' moment.
I commute briskly 75km through auckland rush hour everyday. Do touring, trackdays and sunny sunday fangs.
and im still alive.

Ive got more to teach than half of the 20+years riders.

Of course this is where the system works, as I dont have the right attitude to 'mentor'

My point is, having the right attitude to take someone under their wing and guide them and have the allround experience like i mentioned above - there arent many people like that. I can only think of 2 straight away - Noel and Frosty.

Most of the situations you describe could have been avoided in the first place, if only you had had a decent mentor.

[Morcs]

Lets see if you're still around in 20+ years.
Yes, lets. Seriously.


Sounds like you're slow learner with not much idea what mentoring is about


if we ever get any requests from a newbie who wants to learn how to crash, then we'll know were to direct them. :cool:

both of you are missing my point. I wouldve expected a better insight from both of you.


Most of the situations you describe could have been avoided in the first place, if only you had had a decent mentor.

My point being, you learn better by making mistakes yourself, rather than someone wrapping you in cotton wool and telling you about them.

I avoid a lot of situations everyday. but you are far more highly qualified to react to one if it arises if youve already been there, rather than trying to put into practice what a text book or an old man told you.

[James Deuce]

And so the pissing contest part of the debate began......

[yungatart]

You do it your way, I'll do it mine.

Being mentored, learning how to avoid hazards and from others mistakes has to be far less painful than finding out the hard way.

But good on you, whatever floats your boat...

[James Deuce]

(snip) whatever floats your boat...

Probably the monumental pissing contest.

[justsomeguy]

NO I wanna be a mentor - I have more experience than Morcs in what not to do.

I know more people on KB than he does.

I am far sexier than him.

You need adequate minority representation, I only see honkies being nominated, vere is ze bleckman??

I will accept any sexy girl as my mentoree, not only single ones.

I can piss 10 meters straight standing up.

http://darcyarts.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/pick-me.jpg

P.S: Don't see why this thread isn't closed... dunno what more shit there is to talk.

[Ixion]

if we ever get any requests from a newbie who wants to learn how to crash, then we'll know were to direct them. :cool:


Quite seriuously, that is a very important thing to teach any newbie. Preferably, off road, it's softer and less other moving objects.

Be the rider ever so prudent experienced and careful, every so often the Biker Gods will decide to shit on someone. So if things do go irretrievably pear shaped, knowing how to minimise the damage (to bike and body) is important. Moreover,such experience helps with keeping a clear head at the moment of crisis. In which respect Mr Morc's point is valid: someone who has "been there" is probably going to have a better chance of getting out of it next time. At least they know what DIDN'T work. A hell of a lot of riders crash when they don't need to simply because when the shit hits the fan they either panic or freeze up. The typical reaction is just to hit the brakes and pray, usually NOT the best reaction.

No amount of theoretical training or good advice can substitute for reality. You don't have TIME to THINK about what to do, it has to come immediatelt, instinctively and right, first time. Which means it has to be learned way deeper than the teaching level, down at muscle memory level, so that your body automatically does the right thing, even before your brain has got to the "wha-- wot woz THAT" stage.

Every newbie SHOULD learn how to crash. Just don't do it on the public road.

[SixPackBack]

NO I wanna be a mentor - I have more experience than Morcs in what not to do.

I know more people on KB than he does.

I am far sexier than him.

You need adequate minority representation, I only see honkies being nominated, vere is ze bleckman??

I will accept any sexy girl as my mentoree, not only single ones.

I can piss 10 meters straight standing up.

P.S: Don't see why this thread isn't closed... dunno what more shit there is to talk.

10 meters you say!?....holy fuck bro' $10 sez you could piss further than any other mentor......

[MSTRS]

Quite seriuously, that is a very important thing to teach any newbie. Preferably, off road, it's softer and less other moving objects.

.....

Every newbie SHOULD learn how to crash. Just don't do it on the public road.

Refer Frosty for that sort of instruction....he has a thread on it.

[Morcs]

NO I wanna be a mentor - I have more experience than Morcs in what not to do.

I know more people on KB than he does.

I am far sexier than him.

You need adequate minority representation, I only see honkies being nominated, vere is ze bleckman??

I will accept any sexy girl as my mentoree, not only single ones.

I can piss 10 meters straight standing up.

(Image removed)

P.S: Don't see why this thread isn't closed... dunno what more shit there is to talk.
Yeah bro, you have my nomination :msn-wink:



In which respect Mr Morc's point is valid: someone who has "been there" is probably going to have a better chance of getting out of it next time. At least they know what DIDN'T work. A hell of a lot of riders crash when they don't need to simply because when the shit hits the fan they either panic or freeze up. The typical reaction is just to hit the brakes and pray, usually NOT the best reaction.



Exactly my point, and very well put Les.
You and me must have at least 20 IQ points on everyone else.

[dpex]

I believe the idea is sound but that the method of introduction and execution is flawed.

It is no longer possible for any formal group (read KB) to offer any level of 'all-care-no-responsibility' anything.

These days with OSH rules as they are, one has to print a disclaimer for an earlier disclaimer.

Remember the lady who got turned over for a peddle-biker who got hurt/killed (can't remember the detail). But despite the cautiosnshe took, coupled to the disclaimer asserting she was simply arranging things from the goodness of her heart, the arseholes in Wellington chose to tag her.

I believe that if any 'authority' from KB introduces mentor A, to the 'about-to-be' mentored B, they run the risk of being seen as a formal agency.

And just imagine. B takes a fall and blames A. OSH assert KB introduced and, to a level, sanctified A's ability as a mentor. Thus KB stand in the 'blame' line (these days there has always got to be someone to blame other than the transgressor) and take the fall...Sure, no conviction may ensue, but I'd hate to be bearing the defence costs.

I would have thought a better process would be keep everything quite informal.

B asks for a mentor. KB know of a few guys who might mentor. They give B a list of names of folk who might know a person prepared to mentor. B talks with some on the list and finds some average dude (whom KB know to be a competent rider) selects a name and asks the question. 'Will you mentor me?'

In that fashion everybody is just friends helping friends.

Now put a friend-helping-a-friend in American society.

I'm perpetually surprised that anyone in America has a friend since, at any time a friend can sue a friend for causing gas, resulting from a baked-bean sandwich, which caused the guy to fart and fill his breeks while bending over to receive a blessing from the Pope!

Muldoon may have been an complete control-freak, arsehole, but ACC rocks.

But the OSH game is as close to one-on-one American litigation as it gets, except one of the players has a shit-load more money than the other.

I think the mentoring idea is great. I just think you guys need to think your way through the worst-case scenarios and take them as best-case before you move.

(Snip)

[The Stranger]

Remember the lady who got turned over for a peddle-biker who got hurt/killed (can't remember the detail). But despite the cautiosnshe took, coupled to the disclaimer asserting she was simply arranging things from the goodness of her heart, the arseholes in Wellington chose to tag her.



As I recall she had put in print to the entrants that the roads would be closed to other traffic. They weren't. This was no small oversight. The cyclist were entitled to believe that the roads were closed and behaved accordingly. I can dig all care and no responsibility, but I don't think that qualifies as all care, so don't agree with the no responsibility defence.




And just imagine. B takes a fall and blames A. OSH assert KB introduced and, to a level, sanctified A's ability as a mentor. Thus KB stand in the 'blame' line (these days there has always got to be someone to blame other than the transgressor) and take the fall...Sure, no conviction may ensue, but I'd hate to be bearing the defence costs.




OSH administer the Health and Safety in Employment act.
Unless there have been recent changes in the Health and Safety in Employment act.
There is no employment and no reward so the HSE does not apply.

[NighthawkNZ]

Muldoon may have been an complete control-freak, arsehole, but ACC rocks.

I personally fucken hate ACC... I pay acc and then pay health insurance... therefore ACC will never pay me if I have a mishap... per robberey... simply because I have the that insurance...

I disagree with the whole concept of it especially since I am forced to pay it when I don't won't it... err rant over...

Anyway the mentor program and OSH, ACC, etc.

Since no monetories are handed over for service, there are no guarantees that the mentor will make you a better rider, OSH really can't do anything here as KB is not a formal organisation, club or the likes and is considered as friends giving friends advise.

The Mentors & Senior mentors understand where everyone is coming from both for and against the concept. As I have stated before both the LTSA and the AA, believer there is a gap in the system from when a new rider gets their learners till the next stage... If the mentor program can help fill the gap then and even save one life during the early stage the great.

The whole idea is not new, it is a revamped concept that got out of hand, and while it worked to a degree, some of the choosen mentors were well not really mentoring...

A mentor is not there to teach out right rather to guide, maybe a few pointers & and tips & tricks... like riding in the wind... there are a few tricks experieced bikers do that newbie wouldn't know about... riding a gravel on a sports bike... a few more tricks and tips and pointers for the newbie to learn. Riding in the rain, a few more... I have also said this before if the newbie is doing everything right then a simple well done can go a long way.

If doing a few things that could cause strife, point them out as well. The trick as a mentor is to guide them to doing it a better way to there riding style...

There has been suggestions that the track would help, it would help a few that have the style of riding, and help them if they wanted to go racing, not every one wants that, not everyone needs that.

I guess I have been mentoring my partner now for a year, most rides now I don't need to say anything unless she fucks up... :doh: just when we pull up I look to see if she is smiling and if so I give the thumbs up. :niceone:

[SixPackBack]

This is starting to look like a whitewash-what gives?........genuine concerns written in a thoughtful manner end up in PD. Why forward prospective mentors if any negative feedback is removed from threads removing discussion?......

[The Stranger]

10 meters you say!?....holy fuck bro' $10 sez you could piss further than any other mentor......


Am I allowed to run whilst pissing?

[Jantar]

This is starting to look like a whitewash-what gives?........genuine concerns written in a thoughtful manner end up in PD. Why forward prospective mentors if any negative feedback is removed from threads removing discussion?......


If you read the first post in each thread where a mentor is nominated it states quite clearly that negative feedback is to be PMed to the mentor admin team.

We have received negative feedback on a few of the nominees, and this will be taken into consideration before any final decision is made.

[Virago]

Obviously it is important that the mentor nominations are made public, and very important that everyone has the opportunity to express an opinion on the suitability of the nominees.

However, these are real life people who have been nominated, and the last we wanted was to create a character assassination or shit-fight. Hence the request to submit negative concerns via PM.

On reflection, it is acknowledged that this created the appearance of a "popularity" contest, with only positive comments allowed in the threads.

As of now, the nomination threads will be locked, and if you wish to express an opinion on the suitability of any individual nominee, please do so by PM to myself or Jantar.

[Disco Dan]

So instead of a only "nice" things being allowed posted, it is now all 'hidden' completely?

Doing my best "Phoebe" voice... just call me "flame boy" ! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMWW1yXzvQ)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMWW1yXzvQE

[enigma51]

If you read the first post in each thread where a mentor is nominated it states quite clearly that negative feedback is to be PMed to the mentor admin team.

We have received negative feedback on a few of the nominees, and this will be taken into consideration before any final decision is made.

Yeah but when i remove my support from a nominee i would expect it to stay there so that people know that i have removed it. I didnt saying one bad thing about the person but yet it still gets moved to PD. Whats with that.

or is it a case of all pigs are equal some are just more equal than others

Same amount of bullshit as the mentor program you should rename it to the lets feel good about our self program!

[wysper]

Not sure if this is the right place to ask.

How do you know who the mentors in your area are and how do you get in touch with them?

[Jantar]

No mentors (other than the Seniors) have been confirmed yet as they are still in the notification process. However we are probably only a few days away from confirming the first few.

In the meantime, contact the Senior Mentor for your region and outline just where you are with your riding, and what mentoring you are looking for. I'm sure that you will be given a mentor who can help you fairly soon.

A list of Senior Mentors and their regions is here: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=80017

[Mental Trousers]

Not sure if this is the right place to ask.

How do you know who the mentors in your area are and how do you get in touch with them?
Once we have some confirmed Mentors the Mentors mod for this site will be turned on and you'll be able to access and request that sort of info/help.

[wysper]

Once we have some confirmed Mentors the Mentors mod for this site will be turned on and you'll be able to access and request that sort of info/help.

Thanks :woohoo:

[lozz666]

I volunteer myself to be a mentor!

[Number One]

As someone who is currently seeking input from an appropriately skilled person (in prep for full license test) I feel very lucky that I know more than a few who I could approach.

My concern with the set up of the mentor nomination threads is that for those that are new to biking and KB there are no publicly viewable 'balanced' comments about the nominated mentors.

I can understand the idea behind not wanting to provide an opportunity for people to just take a crack at the nominated peeps but to me the removal of anything 'negative in relation to the persons riding attitude or skill' and now the locking down of the threads completely removes any opportunity (for those that don't know suitable people to approach) to make an 'informed' decision about who might be good to give them some useful feedback on their riding.

My two cents take it or leave it - whatever...as I said I am lucky as I know some goood people

[Quasievil]

Cant believe this is such a big deal FFS, whats the problem in raising your hand to help newbie riders with the hundreds of question they usually have.
some of you are unbelievable

[Number One]

whats the problem in raising your hand to help newbie riders with the hundreds of question they usually have.

So have you put your hand up then Brett?

[paulmac]

Cant believe this is such a big deal FFS, whats the problem in raising your hand to help newbie riders with the hundreds of question they usually have.
some of you are unbelievable

What he said !! And yes, I have put my hand up.

[Quasievil]

So have you put your hand up then Brett?


Arrrrr Daaaaaaa

I started the fucking thing

[Number One]

Arrrrr Daaaaaaa

I started the fucking thing


Was just asking a question!

FFS and you are a business man - great relationship building skills that man.

NOT ALL OF US have been on here our whole life to know the history of all this stuff. Thanks for being such an arse in your answering me.

[Virago]

So have you put your hand up then Brett?

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=79929

[Quasievil]

Was just asking a question!

FFS and you are a business man - great relationship building skills that man.

NOT ALL OF US have been on here our whole life to know the history of all this stuff. Thanks for being such an arse in your answering me.

Oh stop being so sensitive lol

Yeah I put my hand up, naturally.
the whole thing it seems to me is getting kinda a waste of internet space, ie in the two odd years I have been a mentor I mentored one person once, and he was a mate anyway, so the reality of this is , it aint a big deal.
Sorry I upset you, now come give me a big man hug

[Wufnik]

What a great system. I am a Noob returning after many years away, and will welcome the advice/input from those more experienced. Your responsible approach to the mentoring porgram is to be recommended.

[NighthawkNZ]

Forgive me for my ignorance, but where is the list of nominee's? I wish to place feedback on them thanks.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=99

[Grub]

Forgive me for my ignorance, but where is the list of nominee's? I wish to place feedback on them thanks.

Each one was a forum on its own (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=99) All nice things are said there and Negative feedback goes to Helen.Clark@executive.govt.nz where it will be apppropriately filed

[Grub]

my one doesn't. It points to

Kiwi Biker Forums > General Bike Stuff > Survival Skills > KB Mentors Programme, it's right there on the top of your screen

[NighthawkNZ]

That just points to a list of currently approved mentors, which in turn links to their profiles.
I want to see a list of nominees who are yet to be appointed.

I'm not appointed yet and my names is still there... ??? :blink:

[Mental Trousers]

That just points to a list of currently approved mentors, which in turn links to their profiles.
I want to see a list of nominees who are yet to be appointed.
The announcement for each of the candidates is in the Mentoring forum (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=99). If they're not in the list of current Mentors then they're still under consideration.

[Cajun]

The announcement for each of the candidates is in the Mentoring forum (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=99). If they're not in the list of current Mentors then they're still under consideration.

when i click on the link i get this error
'Database error in vBulletin 3.7.2:

Invalid SQL:
select u.username, u.displaygroupid, uf.field14,
uf.field1, uf.field2, uf.field3, un.message, u.usertitle, u.userid, u.customtitle
from user as u
inner join userfield as uf
on (u.userid=uf.userid and (u.usergroupid='42' or
u.membergroupids like '%42%') and
))
left join usernote as un
on (un.userid=u.userid);

MySQL Error : You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near '))
left join usernote as un
on (un.userid=u.userid)' at line 7
Error Number : 1064
Request Date : Thursday, September 11th 2008 @ 04:00:40 PM
Error Date : Thursday, September 11th 2008 @ 04:00:40 PM
Script : http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=99
Referrer : http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=79923
IP Address : xxx.xx.xx.xx
Username : Cajun
Classname : vB_Database
MySQL Version : 5.0.45'

[Mental Trousers]

when i click on the link i get this error
'Database error in vBulletin 3.7.2:

Invalid SQL:
select u.username, u.displaygroupid, uf.field14,
uf.field1, uf.field2, uf.field3, un.message, u.usertitle, u.userid, u.customtitle
from user as u
inner join userfield as uf
on (u.userid=uf.userid and (u.usergroupid='42' or
u.membergroupids like '%42%') and
))
left join usernote as un
on (un.userid=u.userid);

MySQL Error : You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near '))
left join usernote as un
on (un.userid=u.userid)' at line 7
Error Number : 1064
Request Date : Thursday, September 11th 2008 @ 04:00:40 PM
Error Date : Thursday, September 11th 2008 @ 04:00:40 PM
Script : http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=99
Referrer : http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=79923
IP Address : xxx.xx.xx.xx
Username : Cajun
Classname : vB_Database
MySQL Version : 5.0.45'
Thank you for breaking the server :girlfight:

Works fine for me. There's nothing tricky about that url either.

[Cajun]

Thank you for breaking the server :girlfight:

Works fine for me. There's nothing tricky about that url either.

being doing it all day and it still broke

[MSTRS]

Works fine for me. I guess your computer doesn't like you, Neil?

[Mental Trousers]

when i click on the link i get this error
'Database error in vBulletin 3.7.2:

Invalid SQL:
select u.username, u.displaygroupid, uf.field14,
uf.field1, uf.field2, uf.field3, un.message, u.usertitle, u.userid, u.customtitle
from user as u
inner join userfield as uf
on (u.userid=uf.userid and (u.usergroupid='42' or
u.membergroupids like '%42%') and
))
left join usernote as un
on (un.userid=u.userid);

MySQL Error : You have an error in your SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near '))
left join usernote as un
on (un.userid=u.userid)' at line 7

There's the problem (in red). It seems that not setting your region breaks it on here but not on my test server. I'll fix it tonight once I figure out why it's different.

[Katman]

It don't work for me neither.

[Mental Trousers]

It don't work for me neither.
User CP -> Edit Your Details -> Additional Information -> Where you reside in NZ

Set that and it'll work until I fix the problem.

[Mental Trousers]

being doing it all day and it still broke


It don't work for me neither.

Fixed <ffswtfomgbbq>

[MSTRS]

Fixed <ffswtfomgbbq>

But now the '<...>' thing doesn't :crybaby:

[MadDuck]

At what point does a Mentor need to be no longer a Mentor? Is this the kind of person you want to represent KB as a Mentor. Quotes directly off KB by one mentor:

Why the fuck would I bother to answer one of your questions?

Like I give a fuck, retard

You don't have a fucking clue, fudge packer.

[SARGE]

At what point does a Mentor need to be no longer a Mentor? Is this the kind of person you want to represent KB as a Mentor. Quotes directly off KB by one mentor:

Why the fuck would I bother to answer one of your questions?

Like I give a fuck, retard

You don't have a fucking clue, fudge packer.

or ... ......


Good luck to you, loser.


Go fuck yourself.

[carver]

At what point does a Mentor need to be no longer a Mentor? Is this the kind of person you want to represent KB as a Mentor. Quotes directly off KB by one mentor:

Why the fuck would I bother to answer one of your questions?

Like I give a fuck, retard

You don't have a fucking clue, fudge packer.

when i step in.....

[Virago]

At what point does a Mentor need to be no longer a Mentor?...

Sorry, we don't remove Mentors simply because someone had an argument with one, and now seeks revenge.

[MSTRS]

Sorry, we don't remove Mentors simply because someone had an argument with one, and now seeks revenge.

Whilst mentors are expected to show experience, ability and sense in motorcycling...surely it also behoves them to show appropriate maturity and consideration in their postings?

[Virago]

Whilst mentors are expected to show experience, ability and sense in motorcycling...surely it also behoves them to show appropriate maturity and consideration in their postings?

Agreed. But it is not the be all and end all.

Late night on-line bitch-fights don't define a person's mentoring ability.

[Maha]

Late night on-line bitch-fights don't define a person's mentoring ability.

Thats correct, all that means is, that they should be tucked up in their teeny weeny beddy weddy's'...:baby:

[Cajun]

Agreed. But it is not the be all and end all.

Late night on-line bitch-fights don't define a person's mentoring ability.

Its a bit like us as mods, how ever much we say, we are members first and mods second its never gonna be like that. Whatever we say/do is looked differently then a normal user, and we have to watch what/how we say more than others.

Mentors are the same they are being put out there as 'leadership role' and there actions on site should follow that responsibility

[MSTRS]

Agreed. But it is not the be all and end all.

Late night on-line bitch-fights don't define a person's mentoring ability.

No, but not good for the mentor system in general, which could suffer a lack of respect. I know I have none for anyone here who posts like a petulant child, schoolyard bully or braindead moron.

[Maha]

Its a bit like us as mods, how ever much we say, we are members first and mods second its never gonna be like that. Whatever we say/do is looked differently then a normal user, and we have to watch what/how we say more than others.

Mentors are the same they are being put out there as 'leadership role' and there actions on site should follow that responsibility

I would agree with that too, If I were to become a Mod then I would be looked at differently, instead of 23% that think im a knob, that would surely rise to at least 24%?...:cool:

[The Stranger]

Its a bit like us as mods, how ever much we say, we are members first and mods second its never gonna be like that. Whatever we say/do is looked differently then a normal user, and we have to watch what/how we say more than others.

Mentors are the same they are being put out there as 'leadership role' and there actions on site should follow that responsibility

Please don't ever insinuate I'm a leader or in a leadership role. I find that quite offensive.
To hell with leadership and the responsibility that implies.

[Morcs]

Please don't ever insinuate I'm a leader or in a leadership role. I find that quite offensive.
To hell with leadership and the responsibility that implies.

Indeed. Noel is just a grumpy cnut that knows his shit :headbang:

and we'd have it no other way :cool:

[MSTRS]

'Grumpy' is fine. In fact, he's a great guy...
'Fuck off knob end' however...he's a different story.

[Cajun]

Please don't ever insinuate I'm a leader or in a leadership role. I find that quite offensive.
To hell with leadership and the responsibility that implies.

Well having that ME beside your name puts you in a group different than the people who do not have it.

Dictonary.com says meaning of mentor is below
1. a wise and trusted counselor or teacher.
2. an influential senior sponsor or supporter.

Kb in a way puts these mentors out so other members of can ask them for help and so on, so this is a putting yourself out in a authoritative way.

Or are you from the school of 'do as i say!, not what i do?' teaching system

[MSTRS]

Or are you from the school of 'do as i say!, not what i do?' teaching system

Noel's from the school of This is what to do, and this is why. As am I.

[CookMySock]

Noel's from the school of This is what to do, and this is why. As am I.No he's not. He's from the school of "I am always right, and anyone with a different opinion is a fucktard." There is a huge difference between the wording you use and his arrogant always-right behaviour. At least you are not so nasty about it, but his unbridled rudeness knows no bounds.

Mentors can fucking behave, and if they can't behave, they can at least fess up when they are wrong instead of abusing all and sundry as a defense mechanism.

I can name two Internet forums off the top of my head, where the senior members are there for no other purpose whatsoever, than to get joy from bashing hell out of the newbies who disagree with them.

Steve