What is fair ?

[FROSTY]

I'd like to ask the opinion of you lot.
A traded in bike is sold by a bike shop to a customer 700 km from the shop.
The bike is in tiptop condition,has had a full vehicle inspection on it and has a brand new WOF
Customer picks up the bike and is happy with it.
Halfway home the bike blows a headlight bulb and "something" in the speedo makes a squeaking noise and the speedo needle jumps around.
Customer calls bike shop. Bike shop says "hey no problem take the bike to your local dealer and we'll sort it out.
Bill arrives and 1 Hours labour seems to be charged for "fitting a bulb"
2 hours labour and a replacement speedo unit seem to be charged to fix the squeal.

A few days later and the customer tells the dealer the speedo problem isn't fixed I want you to pay several hundred dollars more for a replacement new speedo.
What would you lot concider to be fair and reasonable for those concerned?

[Waxxa]

Headlight bulb should be replaced for free. The speedo should have been assessed and a price to be told to customer. At this point the customer will have been able to go back to the original dealer to negotiate either a fix or replacement solution. Both these options would probably have resulted in a cost to the customer in the speedo matter, but the customer would have had the choice. The vehicle is second hand, speedos only last (x) amount of time, and this would come under the Consumers Guarantee Act.

[paturoa]

What warranty was offerred as part of the sale?

[FROSTY]

Headlight bulb should be replaced for free.
Free to who the customer or the origonal dealer? the bulb has a cost so who should pay that cost?


What warranty was offerred as part of the sale?
I would assume normal consumer/sale of goods act fair and reasonable goods ft for purpose at time of sale--(the old 1 month/2 month warranty no longer applies )

[Ixion]

I assume your question relates to the bike shop part rather than the customer part

Strictly, the bulb thing could be rejected, a bulb can blow at any time. Sort of like "Hey I bought a bike off you , and now it's got a puncture". But goodwill might suggets some accomodation

An hours labour seems a long time to change a bulb, but I have known bikes (Bloddy BMWs!) where it could take that long.

As to the speedo, what evidence is there (other than the customers statement, which is worth what it is worth) that the "squeaking" (if any) actually comes from the speedo? I don't think I've ever heard a speedo "squeak"

What doe sthe bike shop say about this ?

[McJim]

Depends on the price of the bike in my opinion. If it's a sub $5,000 bike then there's bound to be shit going wrong with it.

If it's a $10,000 + bike then the buyer should expect tip top condition but sounds to me like you are dealing with a bike mechanic who can only charge in units of 1 hour. Not an uncommon practice in my experience either.

I think rather than let the customer get everything fixed you should be negotiating directly with the mechanic.

[RantyDave]

Customer calls bike shop. Bike shop says "hey no problem take the bike to your local dealer and we'll sort it out. Bill arrives and 1 Hours labour seems to be charged for "fitting a bulb". 2 hours labour and a replacement speedo unit seem to be charged to fix the squeal.

A few days later and the customer tells the dealer the speedo problem isn't fixed... What would you lot concider to be fair and reasonable for those concerned?
Phoning up the dealer and saying "hey, WTF?" and taking it from there. I believe a second hand bike purchaser has some rights under the CGA - perhaps a month's worth?

The purchaser may send it back.

Dave

[Winston001]

Agree with Ixion about the headlight bulb - its a "consumable", just like a tyre. However goodwill suggests the dealer pay for the repair and argue with the repairer.

Speedo - if it failed - and needle wobbling around suggests that, well that is a primary piece of vehicle equipment and the bike isn't warrantable or road-worthy. Consumer Guarantees Act. The dealer should fix it and it doesn't matter who does the work. Ultimately this is why you buy from a bike shop - backup and servicability.

As for the cost, the dealer would be wise to get the bike back or discuss it directly with the repairer.

[CookMySock]

Second hand bulbs are impossible to gaurantee. They could keel over at any time. A spare bulb would be essential spares on a 700km trip home, particularly if a large portion of it was at night.

A older bike is an older bike - it isn't a new one and it never will be. The whole point of buying a new bike is that the dealer sorts out the teething problems - you can either afford that luxury or you cannot, but you don't get it both ways.

We also need to decide whether we want dealers to handle sales of older bikes, because if we keep whipping them for it, likely they wont do it much longer.

There isnt really any "fair" because fair for one is not fair for the other.


IMO
Steve

[alanzs]

I don't know the details of the CGA, so your legal responsibilities are unknown to me...

I think you have shown exemplary customer service, doing all that you have already done; it was inspected, got a wof and the buyer accepted it. Sale and responsibility on your part over. The reality is bulbs blow, and things like speedos break. Maybe you can talk to the person who has been fixing it and negotiate a better price on the repairs, as you haven't even seen that anything was broken. While you may not be a crook, who is to say that the buyer isn't?

But, we all know the bottom line is that if you don't pay for everything, the buyer will be unhappy. You'll have to balance your profit margin versus the expenses versus the bad/good PR you'll attain from the transaction and its resolution. I think you have done quite a bit. Your reflection is certainly noted, as you do seem to care about having a happy customer.

If the sale was done by a private party, would there even be an issue? The seller would say "Sorry mate, it was sold "as-is."

I'm interested in hearing what happens.

[Mully]

Headlight bulb should be replaced for

Disagree. Bulbs are a consumable, and not normally subject to warrantly (I've always replaced both headlight bulbs if I've had one blow). Possibly replace as a sign of goodwill, but I don't believe there is any obligation to do so. And an hour's labour for that is a rip-off.

Frosty, I'd be finding out if the other (local) dealer actually replaced the speedo unit or just billed for it (and maybe lubed it). If it was replaced, then that part should come with a warranty from the supplier that the local dealer bought it from. And I think the part supplier should be paying the labour to re-replace the unit.

My 2c.

[Disco Dan]

Sounds like the speedo cable has just come loose - after I fitted a brand new one to my vehicle I went down the road and it squeaked with the needle bouncing. Pulled over, reseating the square end into back of speedo a re-tightened and all is well.

The "squeak" is the cable skipping a tooth as it where on the back of the speedo.

[Sparky Bills]

Most important factor is what warranty was sold with it.
I would have thought the bulb would be replaced by the bikeshop who sold the bike under "good will".
But the speedo is another story. If the customer had a word with the bike shop who sold the bike im sure a fair deal would be to go halves in the cost of repair.

But once again... depends what warranty the bike had.
Id expect to go 50/50 in repair. That should be fair for all involved.

[FJRider]

I'd like to ask the opinion of you lot.
A traded in bike is sold by a bike shop to a customer 700 km from the shop.
The bike is in tiptop condition,has had a full vehicle inspection on it and has a brand new WOF
Customer picks up the bike and is happy with it.
Halfway home the bike blows a headlight bulb and "something" in the speedo makes a squeaking noise and the speedo needle jumps around.
Customer calls bike shop. Bike shop says "hey no problem take the bike to your local dealer and we'll sort it out.
Bill arrives and 1 Hours labour seems to be charged for "fitting a bulb"
2 hours labour and a replacement speedo unit seem to be charged to fix the squeal.

A few days later and the customer tells the dealer the speedo problem isn't fixed I want you to pay several hundred dollars more for a replacement new speedo.
What would you lot concider to be fair and reasonable for those concerned?

Refer to warranty period on sales form, signed (agreed by) the BUYER and SELLER, at the "time of purchase"...

[dino3310]

to me good business sense the bike shop would come to the party with a second hand or new speedo unit with the customer maybe paying for labour, would depend how much the unit is worth. if i was shop owner i would try to fix the problem with minimal expense to the customer(as long as i wasn't cutting my own throat so to speak). at the end of the day i would want that buyers custom and his mates, its that old story: tell two Friends they tell two Friends and so on.
so a mutual arrangement that would satisfy the customer so he would come back to buy his next ride would be a good out come.

just my 2cents

[Winston001]

Sounds like the speedo cable has just come loose - after I fitted a brand new one to my vehicle I went down the road and it squeaked with the needle bouncing. Pulled over, reseating the square end into back of speedo a re-tightened and all is well.

The "squeak" is the cable skipping a tooth as it where on the back of the speedo.

Sounds like a good explanation. Must say it seems a bit suss that the speedo went wonky just after leaving the shop - you'd have to wonder about the competence of the other bike shop?

Any chance of having another shop whom you trust look at it? Do speedos fail very often?

Ultimately dealers need to add value to the second-hand bikes they sell. If they don't, then buyers may as well use Trademe. And as our canny Scot says, the amount of money influences the obligations of the bargain.

[crazybigal]

dont dealers have to cover the bike for 3 months under warranty by law?
the bulb thing is just hard luck! and the customer would be expected to sort that.

[bull]

To me it looks as if the question is whether or not the original bike shop needs to cover the cost of the speedo for a second time or if the dealer should as they "fixed it" and then its started doign it again.

As i see it, original shop does the bulb as goodwill, and pays for speedo fix.
Anything to do with the speedo from there now has the local dealer responsible as they have made the shabby repair so they are responsible.

Case closed.

[FROSTY]

I guess thats the question.
What is reasonable action for both parties given the dealer selling the bike has already paid for headlight bulb and for the speedo to be repaired once.

[alanzs]

I guess thats the question.
What is reasonable action for both parties given the dealer selling the bike has already paid for headlight bulb and for the speedo to be repaired once.

I think the reasonable action is for you to refer the person to the shop that repaired it. If they didn't repair it correctly, that is an issue for the bike owner to take up with the repair shop. You have done more than enough by paying for the repairs. Again, excellent customer service.

The bike owner should be grateful that you paid for the repairs and deal with the repair shop. As you mentioned, you are 700k's away and already paid to have it fixed once. That would be reasonable on the bike owners part.
:hug:

[FROSTY]

dont dealers have to cover the bike for 3 months under warranty by law?
the bulb thing is just hard luck! and the customer would be expected to sort that.
No dude --the sale of goods etc basicly says the dealer needs to be fair and reasonable.

[Trouser]

A bit of info from the consumer.org website about secondhand vehicles bought from a dealer.

When things go wrong

Your first step is to discuss the problem with the trader. Traders have to comply with both the Consumer Guarantees Act and the Fair Trading Act.
If the problem isn't serious, the trader can choose what remedy to give you. They can either fix the problem, or replace the vehicle for free. They have to act within a reasonable time.

If the problem is serious, ie you wouldn't have bought the vehicle if you had known the fault existed then you can choose whether to accept a repair, a replacement or a refund.

If you and the trader can't agree, get an independent written report on the fault, and what it would cost you to fix, from a qualified specialist, like a mechanic. You will have to pay for this report but you can then work out what remedy you can claim.

If the trader still won't help you, you have two options: to take a case to the specialist Motor Vehicle Disputes Tribunal (MVDT), or use a regular Disputes Tribunal.

You should also make sure you have available any material relating to the sale of the vehicle (for example, the CIN) and any subsequent work you've had done on it (inspection reports, and so on).

Consumer guarantees act states

Retailers and other such suppliers guarantee their goods will:
<LI class=content>Be of acceptable quality (see definition below). <LI class=content>Be fit for a particular purpose that you asked about. <LI class=content>Match the description given in advertisements or sales brochures, or by the sales assistant. <LI class=content>Match the sample or demonstration model. <LI class=content>Be owned by the consumer, once purchased.
Be a reasonable price, if no price or pricing formula has been previously agreed.
Acceptable quality

This means goods:
<LI class=content>Do what they are made to do. <LI class=content>Are acceptable in appearance and finish. <LI class=content>Are free from minor defects.
Are safe and durable.
The Act's terms "reasonable" and "acceptable" are deliberately open-ended. It depends on what a reasonable consumer would think was acceptable based on the nature of the goods, the price, and any statements that have been made about the goods. A concert violin is required to meet a higher standard than a child's cheap instrument. Ultimately a tribunal referee or a judge may have to decide what is reasonable or acceptable in the circumstances.
If a defect was pointed out to you before you bought the good, then it doesn't count towards making it unacceptable.

No contracting out

Sellers cannot exempt themselves from their obligations under the Act, even if they put it in a contract.

This also means guarantees and warranties cannot state "No consequential losses are covered," because attempts to contract out of the Act may mislead consumers about their rights.

Putting it right

If something goes wrong, you have the right to insist that the seller or service provider fixes things.

If the problem is minor, and can be fixed, the retailer can choose to either repair, replace or refund.

If the problem cannot be fixed, or cannot be put right within a reasonable time, or is substantial, you can:
<LI class=content>Reject the product and choose a replacement of the same type or similar value or a full refund of your purchase price; or <LI class=content>Claim compensation for any drop in the value of the product or service. <LI class=content>Cancel the service contract, pay for any satisfactory work already done, and get someone else to finish the repairs; or
Have it repaired elsewhere and recover the costs from the retailer, if they refuse to fix a faulty product, or fail to do so in a reasonable time.
When you have the right to reject the goods, sellers cannot just offer a credit note. If you want a refund, you are entitled to it - by cash, cheque or credit card charge reversal.



There you go. Fix the problem for the customer. Bitch and moan all you like about the repairer not doing it properly but get the speedo fixed.