Annoying Christian sayings

[Grahameeboy]

Yes I am a Christian but...read the following which I found interesting...

Accept Jesus as your personal savior. Or, "I accepted Jesus..." etc. This is a phrase found nowhere in the Bible. I had to laugh as I was channel-surfing the other day and a televangelist talked about Peter "accepting Jesus Christ as his personal savior" and I just laughed out loud because it sounded so ridiculous. Yes, Peter confessed that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God, but had he added "and I accept You as my personal Savior" I think Jesus would have said "What???"
The Word. Notice how some televangelists never say The Bible, they always say The Word? Problem is, there is another "Word" found in John 1, as in "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us." That ain't talking about a book, folks.
Plant a seed. This has been so misused and overused by televangelists that I'm sure the Apostle Paul regrets ever using that phrase. Paul couldn't see down the road 1900 years to Oral Roberts, unfortunately. What's wrong with simply "giving"? Is that a bad word? And it particularly grates on me when televangelists use the phrase "seedtime and harvest" in Genesis to mean something besides just what it says; there will be a growing season and a time for harvest. That is, agriculturally, not lining a charlatan's pockets.
The devil. Listen to most televangelists, and it's "the devil" this and "the devil" that. "Take authority over the devil." "Tell the devil to get his hands off your (body, finances, family.)" It's not the devil, it's just you, dude.
Every head bowed and every eye closed. This is courtesy of our Baptist friends. I almost got suckered into "slipping up my hand" once when visiting a Sunday night service with my Baptist friend when I was a kid. I know Mike Warnke later was exposed as a phony, but I still appreciate what he did when he gave the "invitation" at a meeting of his that I attended over 20 years ago in Enid, OK. He said, "I want everyone to keep their eyes open and looking around to see who raises their hand!" That was refreshing.
Have a blessed day. Just to let you know I'm too much of a Christian to wish you a good day...
The rapture. There's no such thing, and it's not mentioned in the Bible, despite what Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye would have you believe.
Slain in the Spirit. This is used in Pentecostal circles to indicate someone falling backwards when a preacher lays his hands on you, or breathes on you, or waves his arm in your direction. For an example, watch Benny Hinn, if you can keep from gagging.
I rebuke you in Jesus' name! I've had some Christians indicate that they've never heard anyone use this phrase, but some of the weirdo Christians I used to hang with used it all the time. It was a Christian way of saying "F*** you!"
Jesus loves you just the way you are but he loves you too much to leave you that way. This phrase has even worked it's way into the mainstream (see the movie "Junebug" for an example.) Unfortunately, Jesus has pretty much left me the way I was.
Saul changed his name to Paul. This is not so much a phrase as a common misconception perpetuated by uneducated preachers. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that he changed his name. He was known as Saul (Jewish name) among the Jews and Paul (non-Jewish name) among the Gentiles. We know him mainly as Paul because of his mission to the Gentiles.
Three Wise Men. Nowhere does it say there were three of them. They brought three gifts but how many of them there were is not stated. And, thanks to the inaccurate Christmas carol "We Three Kings of Orient Are" they even have names. Made up ones, no less. Casper, Melchior, and another one that I won't bother to look up. Why not just Fred, George, and Hakim? And, not to ruin your enjoyment of the annual kid's Christmas play, but it's not accurate to have the Wise Men from Matthew arrive on the scene at the same time as the shepherds from Luke.

[CB ARGH]

I got lost when you said the word televange... - what? :blank:

Yeah I'm not a christian, but I believe that there's some dude up there watchin down on me. I reckon he's a lot like me ya know? I like sushi, so does he.

Now he owns a CBR250RR! :clap:

[Grahameeboy]

I got lost when you said the word televange... - what? :blank:

Yeah I'm not a christian, but I believe that there's some dude up there watchin down on me. I reckon he's a lot like me ya know? I like sushi, so does he.

Now he owns a CBR250RR! :clap:

Telly Evangelists......and yes God is watching you...not sure whether he likes sushi though....and he would prefer an R1

[MadDuck]

Three Wise Men. Nowhere does it say there were three of them.

Yeah thats annoying because I would like to know where there is just "one" wise man anywhere.......

[paulmac]

I'm a christian bumfian ! means that I'll belive in christ when I bump into him !!

[CB ARGH]

and he would prefer an R1

Restricted class one? No way...

He wants a full Class Six!

(I'm being a dick, I know you mean the bike btw)

[Zuki Bandit]

If they start preaching that funny stuff to me, my favorite response is "jesus died for his own sins, NOT MINE!"

[Grahameeboy]

I'm a christian bumfian ! means that I'll belive in christ when I bump into him !!

How close to the truth you actually are...:niceone:

[NighthawkNZ]

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

[vindy500]

Restricted class one? No way...

He wants a full Class Six!

(I'm being a dick, I know you mean the bike btw)

thatd be a 1R

[blue eyed savage]

back it up with verse so i can bust out the bible and see for my self

[Skyryder]

At last a Christian who makes sense. Knows his Bible too.


Skyryder

[Magua]

Sola fide, sola scriptura.

[blue eyed savage]

"Rapture", when used in eschatological terms, is an English word used in place of the Latin word raptus; taken from the Vulgate, which in turn is a translation of the Koine Greek word harpazo, which is found in the Greek New Testament manuscripts of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In many modern English translations of the Bible, harpazo is translated; "caugh

[vindy500]

At last a Christian who makes sense. Knows his Bible too.


Skyryder

perhaps it is just that ones that dont make sense are the noisy ones

[Oakie]

"Rapture", when used in eschatological terms, is an English word used in place of the Latin word raptus; taken from the Vulgate, which in turn is a translation of the Koine Greek word harpazo, which is found in the Greek New Testament manuscripts of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In many modern English translations of the Bible, harpazo is translated; "caugh

Yeah, I was just going to say that.... :whistle:

[blue eyed savage]

Accept Jesus as your personal savior
is there any other way, do u just say i beleave. because i accept him into my life and i am a person so it kind of makes sense

[yod]

i like fiction too

:niceone:

[avgas]

you are forgiven.......

in reality it should be change to "thou has no spine"

[blue eyed savage]

forgive dont mean forget or no punisment

[Maha]

Yeah thats annoying because I would like to know where there is just "one" wise man anywhere.......

HELLO!!!!!

Oh, and I have a used camel for sale/lease....K's are up there but the WOF is current and its a two humper!!....:niceone:

[Ixion]

Accept Jesus as your personal savior. Or, "I accepted Jesus..." etc. This is a phrase found nowhere in the Bible. I had to laugh as I was channel-surfing the other day and a televangelist talked about Peter "accepting Jesus Christ as his personal savior"


Bastard doesn't give y' a lot of choice , does he?

EDIT: - Yeah, technicallyJesus was a bastard

[Slyer]

All christian sayings are annoying.
They're based off a book that has been written by primitive men, altered and translated for the past two thousand years. Of course they're going to not make any sense either.
Books are based on reality not the other way around.

What you are saying is that you are Christian but not one of the stooooopid ones. Right. ;)

[blue eyed savage]

primative men what a crock.
altered? read the last page of the bible - Revelation 22:18
the bible makes a lot of sence mabe you should try reading it some time because u havent have ya!?

[Slyer]

Primative yes, they didn't exactly have the science of today did they?
Making sense and being nonsense aren't mutually exclusive.
There's a lot of really bad advice in there too.

[blue eyed savage]

uneducated but not Primative (theres a diffrance)
"There's a lot of really bad advice in there too". give me a verse to work with!

[blue eyed savage]

like the 10 commandments sounds good to me

[Slyer]

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/highlights.html
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/long.html
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

Some examples.
First of all give me your version of the ten commandments, there are different versions.

[blue eyed savage]

the N.I.V
http://www.ibs.org/niv/

[yod]

and they're off!

:corn:

(it's 'primitive', btw)

[Slyer]

I love how they fight over which translation is the "best".
So, where are the commandments?
Have a good read of my links by the way.

[Owl]

It's the christian choice of words "Blinkin" and "Flippin" I can't stand. Just say "Fucken" for Christ's sake!:yes:

[blue eyed savage]

ok, you posted some links, thats all fine and dandy - pick a topic and lets go.
you have a link there about intolerance in the bible - the bible isnt suppost to be tollenent - if you piss God off enough, he'll draw a line and kick your arse.
Those links you posted hint at problems in the bible, without discussing or laying out what the problem is they are seeing.
When you try and put God in a box, to make him conform to your way of thinking, to your understanding of the world, of course your going to have a few problems. The best way to understand him is to read His word, the bible. It spells out some of the things that piss him off (sin), as in the 10 commandments, and the things he likes, such as helping those less fortunate that us- the good samaritan.
And at teh end of the day, christians screw up just as much as you do, and are just as helplessly doomed, except we have a get out of jail free card cause we believe Jesus was killed and resurected in place of us, you can to.

[blue eyed savage]

http://www.ibs.org/bible/verse/index.php?q=Exodus%2020&niv=yes&v_mode=&t_mode=

10 commandments

[Gubb]

"The Lord works in mysterious ways" and "It's all part of God's plan" fuck me off royally.

That, and I believe religion is a load of cold wank anyway.

[blue eyed savage]

ok god bless u all and hve a good night. thought of the day if evolution is real explain morality

[Owl]

"The Lord works in mysterious ways" and "It's all part of God's plan" fuck me off royally.

That, and I believe religion is a load of cold wank anyway.

Well you won't go to heaven with an attitude like that!:laugh:

[Ixion]

"The Lord works in mysterious ways" and "It's all part of God's plan" fuck me off royally.

That, and I believe religion is a load of cold wank anyway.

have you considered that part of His plan may be to fuck you off royally. He's probably having a giggle about it right now.

[Slyer]

Basically you're saying that God is always right and when he looks wrong he is actually right and I can't see that because I'm a stupid mortal.

This premise encompasses absolutely anything that could ever be written.
It's an argument that is impossible to disprove and therefore worthless, the best arguments are the ones that can be easily disproven and yet fail to be.

All of this also assumes that the bible is correct.
Answer me this question: How do you know that the bible is correct?
Answer and then look at my attachment.

[Slyer]

ok god bless u all and hve a good night. thought of the day if evolution is real explain morality
Morality is really easy to explain.

[Ixion]

You don't have to believe in the Bible to be a Christian. You have to belive in God. Not the same thing. Nor is God always right , indeed we know this because the Bible tells us so. He has stuffed up monumentally, many a time. Just best not to remind him of this, cos he has a bitch of a temper.

Get thee to the Scottish thread, where all this has been rehearsed and argued for years.

[blue eyed savage]

why do we have it if not because of god (Morality)

[Sanx]

you have a link there about intolerance in the bible - the bible isnt suppost to be tollenent - if you piss God off enough, he'll draw a line and kick your arse.

Riiiiiight.


When you try and put God in a box, to make him conform to your way of thinking, to your understanding of the world, of course your going to have a few problems. The best way to understand him is to read His word, the bible. It spells out some of the things that piss him off (sin), as in the 10 commandments, and the things he likes, such as helping those less fortunate that us- the good samaritan.

His word? Singular? Must be a real easy bible to memorise? What is the one word? Gullible? Insane? Fuckwit?

Oh, and by the way, god condemned those who work on the sabbath day (Exodus 20:8, 23:12, 31:13 and a shit load of others). And Exodus 31:15 clearly spells out the punishment for those who work on the Sabbath; death. And according to some, operating electrical or electronic equipment on the Sabbath is counted as 'work'. As you, in clear violation of god's law, sinned by posting complete shite on KB, you'll no doubt be putting yourself to death shortly.

Or is that one of the bits we're not meant to take too seriously?


And at teh end of the day, christians screw up just as much as you do, and are just as helplessly doomed, except we have a get out of jail free card cause we believe Jesus was killed and resurected in place of us, you can to.

*cackle* The perfect indictment of Christianity is people like you. "I can do whatever the fuck I want, 'cos I believe in Jesus!". What a crock of shit.

[yod]

ok god bless u all and hve a good night. thought of the day if evolution is real explain morality

And lo, there was a young fella who had his head full of ideas that other people told him

studied evolution lately?

[blue eyed savage]

Basically you're saying that God is always right and when he looks wrong he is actually right and I can't see that because I'm a stupid mortal.

This premise encompasses absolutely anything that could ever be written.
It's an argument that is impossible to disprove and therefore worthless, the best arguments are the ones that can be easily disproven and yet fail to be.

All of this also assumes that the bible is correct.
Answer me this question: How do you know that the bible is correct?
Answer and then look at my attachment.

Not "because I'm a stupid mortal.", but because you dont understand God. His character is consistent throughout the bible- he likes it when people rely on him, when we realise we can't always do it on our own. So God is always right, your interpretation of Gods actions based on your underatanding of life and everything else is wrong.

"Answer me this question: How do you know that the bible is correct?"
Why do you not believe the bible is correct? it seems pretty straight foward to me, i dont see any inconsistencies or problems. I dont see you bitchign about quantium physics, but i know you dont understand that.

[Sanx]

why do we have it if not because of god (Morality)

So ... you do moral stuff 'cos god tells you to. I do moral stuff because I want to.

Hmm - I exercise free will and choose, freely. You have to be ordered. So, either you're immoral by nature and have to be told not to do bad stuff, or you're just incredibly thick and won't do anything without someone giving instructions. Which is it?

[Gubb]

i dont see any inconsistencies or problems.

Have you read the fuckin' thing?
Try these. (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/contradictions.html)
Also, which version of the Bible is the right one? Do you let the readers of the other Bibles know that they believe a book that is wrong?

[Slyer]

why do we have it if not because of god (Morality)
Because species that look after each other survive better than ones that don't. Humans, like apes and other mammals are really vulnerable for the first stages of their life and if our ancestors didn't help each other out we wouldn't be here today.
Many many of our desires are ones that help us to survive as a species. The desire to eat, drink, have sex, help others etc.
We can also be very violent as in the past if there were two tribes, one violent and one pacifist, the violent one would kill off the pacifist tribe and so only the violent one would be left to reproduce and continue the species.
This is a very simplified explanation and not perfect.

In summary, all of our good/bad qualities exist a result of them helping us survive.

[blue eyed savage]

And lo, there was a young fella who had his head full of ideas that other people told him

studied evolution lately?

it interests me.
like healthy cells kill mutant cells so evolution just cant work (apoptosis)

[Ixion]

Also, which version of the Bible is the right one?

'S easy. King James version. Oh, Mighty Zed, where are you when you're needed.

[Gubb]

it intress me.
like healthy cells kill mutant cells so evolution just cant work
Quantum Physics you don't understand, but micro-biology is a cinch huh?

Stop copy and pasting your arguments, and give us your real thoughts.

[Pumpkin Pie]

it intress me.
like healthy cells kill mutant cells so evolution just cant work

so that's a 'no' then

[Sanx]

it intress me.
like healthy cells kill mutant cells so evolution just cant work

You're talking complete unmitigated shite. If 'healthy' cells kill 'mutant' cells, how come some people are born blind? Or with a hare lip? Really simplistic examples, I know, but I'm obviously going to have to keep it simple.

Or do you need me to write it out in words of one syllable?

[blue eyed savage]

In summary, all of our good/bad qualities exist a result of them helping us survive.

so hitler was right then? kill the weak and inferior

[yod]

it intress me.
like healthy cells kill mutant cells so evolution just cant work

seriously, get an education.


try anthropology and/or geology, I found them really interesting

[Sanx]

so hitler was right then? kill the weak and inferior

You'd have been fucked then, wouldn't you.

[blue eyed savage]

so hard to answer all the qusions cant spell well enuff or fast enuff

[Pumpkin Pie]

Fish in a barrel, anyone?

[blue eyed savage]

Riiiiiight.

His word? Singular? Must be a real easy bible to memorise? What is the one word? Gullible? Insane? Fuckwit?

Oh, and by the way, god condemned those who work on the sabbath day (Exodus 20:8, 23:12, 31:13 and a shit load of others). And Exodus 31:15 clearly spells out the punishment for those who work on the Sabbath; death. And according to some, operating electrical or electronic equipment on the Sabbath is counted as 'work'. As you, in clear violation of god's law, sinned by posting complete shite on KB, you'll no doubt be putting yourself to death shortly.

Or is that one of the bits we're not meant to take too seriously?



*cackle* The perfect indictment of Christianity is people like you. "I can do whatever the fuck I want, 'cos I believe in Jesus!". What a crock of shit.


Moses laid down the law, which was near impossible to satisfy. Jesus came and furfilled the law, made it complete, so that it no longer condems us.

Jesus said the sabbith was made for man, man was not made for the sabbith. this breaks it down a bit.
the http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/sabbath/mark227.htm

so yes, that basically is one of the bits we are not meant to take to seriously. As in, humans will have a better quality of life if they live by the law which says take a break for a day a week.

"The perfect indictment of Christianity ..."
That would be dead right if i used what you quoted as an excuse to "do whatever the fuck I want". But i dont use it as a license to sin, and indeed, its pretty sad when people do. When you genuinely accept the 'get out of jail free' card that Jesus is dishing out, peopel are so stoaked that they put in a real effort to stop pissing God off (sinning).

[Slyer]

Not "because I'm a stupid mortal.", but because you dont understand God. His character is consistent throughout the bible- he likes it when people rely on him, when we realise we can't always do it on our own. So God is always right, your interpretation of Gods actions based on your underatanding of life and everything else is wrong.

"Answer me this question: How do you know that the bible is correct?"
Why do you not believe the bible is correct? it seems pretty straight foward to me, i dont see any inconsistencies or problems. I dont see you bitchign about quantium physics, but i know you dont understand that.
Firstly, who are you to say that you understand God? Think about that.
So just change "because I'm a stupid mortal" to "because I don't understand god" and you get the same effect.

Believing in a book because "it seems pretty straight foward to me, i dont see any inconsistencies or problems" is completely moronic even if there weren't any inconsistencies.

Here is a sentence: "I am God."
It's a pass by your standards! It is straightforward and there are no inconsistencies!
Don't believe it? Why not?

[yod]

so hard to answer all the qusions cant spell well enuff or fast enuff

that's ok, you seem to be able to copy and paste pretty well

[Ixion]

Firstly, who are you to say that you understand God?

Don't think anyone can understand God. Never met anyone who could even understand ordinary women.

[Slyer]

Yeah, word of advice mate, don't attack evolution. It is a very well documented fact now and you will be crushed by an endless pile of strong evidence.

[blue eyed savage]

Because species that look after each other survive better than ones that don't. Humans, like apes and other mammals are really vulnerable for the first stages of their life and if our ancestors didn't help each other out we wouldn't be here today.
Many many of our desires are ones that help us to survive as a species. The desire to eat, drink, have sex, help others etc.
We can also be very violent as in the past if there were two tribes, one violent and one pacifist, the violent one would kill off the pacifist tribe and so only the violent one would be left to reproduce and continue the species.
This is a very simplified explanation and not perfect.

In summary, all of our good/bad qualities exist a result of them helping us survive.

Sorry for branching out into all these topics. But posting on here with such topics is almost as fun as a good ride!
"Many many of our desires are ones that help us to survive as a species"
As a christian i have a moral problem with homosexuals. I understand you are arguing that morals are simply a part of life and a mechanism "helping us survive". How does being a homo help anyone survive?
And i dint want to be to presumptuous, but since your taking a stand against God i suspect you believe in evolution/natural selection.
Natural selection is survival of the fittest, so why "survive as a species" - natural selection does not work at this level - it favors individuals that exhibit traits that enables better survival in a given environment.

Perhaps we should choose a more clear cut moral issue before preceding. Your call :)

[Slyer]

so hitler was right then? kill the weak and inferior
Hitler was indeed correct, if your aim is to make humanity the strongest it can be then killing off the weak is a good idea.
He did however go about it in completely the wrong way and is still an asshole.

Hitler is only "right" if you share the same goals as him.

[Sanx]

Yeah, word of advice mate, don't attack evolution. It is a very well documented fact now and you will be crushed by an endless pile of strong evidence.

I disagree. It's still a theory, but given of the alternatives, it's the only one that stands up to scientific examination and the only one for which there is evidence. But it hasn't been proved it yet.

[yod]

Sorry for branching out into all these topics. But posting on here with such topics is almost as fun as a good ride!
"Many many of our desires are ones that help us to survive as a species"
As a christian i have a moral problem with homosexuals. I understand you are arguing that morals are simply a part of life and a mechanism "helping us survive". How does being a homo help anyone survive?
And i dint want to be to presumptuous, but since your taking a stand against God i suspect you believe in evolution/natural selection.
Natural selection is survival of the fittest, so why "survive as a species" - natural selection does not work at this level - it favors individuals that exhibit traits that enables better survival in a given environment.

Perhaps we should choose a more clear cut moral issue before preceding. Your call :)

so who is now posting on your behalf?

[blue eyed savage]

my flat mate same age as me (has the zxr 250)

[Slyer]

Sorry for branching out into all these topics. But posting on here with such topics is almost as fun as a good ride!
"Many many of our desires are ones that help us to survive as a species"
As a christian i have a moral problem with homosexuals. I understand you are arguing that morals are simply a part of life and a mechanism "helping us survive". How does being a homo help anyone survive?
And i dint want to be to presumptuous, but since your taking a stand against God i suspect you believe in evolution/natural selection.
Natural selection is survival of the fittest, so why "survive as a species" - natural selection does not work at this level - it favors individuals that exhibit traits that enables better survival in a given environment.

Perhaps we should choose a more clear cut moral issue before preceding. Your call :)
Natural selection only works with traits that you can pass on to your children, it still unclear what causes homosexuality but we do know that it is not genetic as the children of homosexuals are just as unlikely to be gay as anyone else.

[Slyer]

I disagree. It's still a theory, but given of the alternatives, it's the only one that stands up to scientific examination and the only one for which there is evidence. But it hasn't been proved it yet.
If you are talking scientifically yes, it is a theory and no amount of evidence could ever make it more than a theory. Theory is the highest it can go, gravity is a theory afterall.
But when we are talking in everyday language it is essentially a fact, the same as how gravity is a fact.

In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it can in everyday speech. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It originates from or is supported by rigorous observations in the natural world, or by experimental evidence (see scientific method). In this sense, a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations, and is predictive, logical, and testable. In principle, scientific theories are always tentative, and subject to corrections, inclusion in a yet wider theory, or succession.

[kickingzebra]

seriously, get an education.


try anthropology and/or geology, I found them really interesting



I am really pleased to see you have studied these arts...


So can I get fries with that??:bleh:

[kickingzebra]

You'd have been fucked then, wouldn't you.

Yeah, but so would you, cause he would have killed the slow too...:jerry:

[blue eyed savage]

If you are talking scientifically yes, it is a theory and no amount of evidence could ever make it more than a theory. Theory is the highest it can go, gravity is a theory afterall.
But when we are talking in everyday language it is essentially a fact, the same as how gravity is a fact.

I agree with your post above about homo's and it not being genetic, good point.
" gravity is a theory afterall." Gravity is a Quantifiable and measurable force. On earth at sea level it is measured at ~9.8meters per second per second (acceleration). Sometimes my ZXR feels like its going faster than that (i know it isnt lol).
Both creation and evolution give an account for what happened when time began. Since non of us were there, we can not come to a 100% conclusion.
Evolution requires forces to act against entropy. We could also have a look at our DNA being digital codes....
Yep, the christian answer is awesomely convenient - God just made it all. It is much easier to believe than evolution. Once you break it down, all the chances of it randomly occurring, the anthropic principal etc, it takes like (guess) 10 times more faith to believe in cellular evolution (information gain at a cellular level) as an explanation for life than it does to believe in God and the way he just busted out the universe!


Edit
"But when we are talking in everyday language it is essentially a fact, the same as how gravity is a fact."
Yep, there is widespread acceptance of evolution in teh scientific community, just like there is widespread beliefe of santa by under-10s. I know thats a bit of a low blow, but you are appealing to the argument 'everyone else does it so it must be right'. Which bridge are we jumping off here?....lol
My point is there is a big difference between what you call "essentially a fact" and gravity being a fact.

[yod]

I am really pleased to see you have studied these arts...


So can I get fries with that??:bleh:

arts papers? ah no, you'll find them in the college of sciences

and incidentally, i've never cooked fries in my life

it's nice to have an education, i know stuff, and i get paid for it

[Sanx]

Moses laid down the law, which was near impossible to satisfy. Jesus came and furfilled the law, made it complete, so that it no longer condems us.

Sheesh. Have you actually read that work of fiction you like so much? Moses didn't lay down the law. God did, inscribed the ten commandments on some tablets and gave them to Moses. He, with Aaron, then went about (mis)interpreting them. But plenty of laws had been laid down by god before that, and plenty since.


Jesus said the sabbith was made for man, man was not made for the sabbith. this breaks it down a bit.
the http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/sabbath/mark227.htm

so yes, that basically is one of the bits we are not meant to take to seriously. As in, humans will have a better quality of life if they live by the law which says take a break for a day a week.

Oh ... so god got it wrong the first time around, and then clarified himself a few thousand years later. But I thought god was meant to be infallible?


"The perfect indictment of Christianity ..."
That would be dead right if i used what you quoted as an excuse to "do whatever the fuck I want". But i dont use it as a license to sin, and indeed, its pretty sad when people do. When you genuinely accept the 'get out of jail free' card that Jesus is dishing out, peopel are so stoaked that they put in a real effort to stop pissing God off (sinning).

So - you have a get out of jail free card, and that makes you want to use it less? That makes sense.


Yep, the christian answer is awesomely convenient - God just made it all. It is much easier to believe than evolution. Once you break it down, all the chances of it randomly occurring, the anthropic principal etc, it takes like (guess) 10 times more faith to believe in cellular evolution (information gain at a cellular level) as an explanation for life than it does to believe in God and the way he just busted out the universe!

It makes it easier to believe when you fail to consider the fundamental questions such an explanation raises, like: if god created the world, where did god come from?

[yod]

Yep, the christian answer is awesomely convenient - God just made it all. It is much easier to believe than evolution.

yep, the scientists have got it wrong
the atheists have got it wrong
the agnostics have got it wrong
the hindus have got it wrong
islam has got it wrong
the buddhists have got it wrong
the mormons have got it wrong
the jehovahs have got it wrong

but you guys have nailed it

phew, for a minute there I thought you had no proof

[avgas]

forgive dont mean forget or no punisment
Then what is forgiveness? Seems kinda irrelevent if ignorance is abosolution.

[Slyer]

Both creation and evolution give an account for what happened when time began. Since non of us were there, we can not come to a 100% conclusion.
Evolution requires forces to act against entropy. We could also have a look at our DNA being digital codes....
Yep, the christian answer is awesomely convenient - God just made it all. It is much easier to believe than evolution. Once you break it down, all the chances of it randomly occurring, the anthropic principal etc, it takes like (guess) 10 times more faith to believe in cellular evolution (information gain at a cellular level) as an explanation for life than it does to believe in God and the way he just busted out the universe!

Edit
"But when we are talking in everyday language it is essentially a fact, the same as how gravity is a fact."
Yep, there is widespread acceptance of evolution in teh scientific community, just like there is widespread beliefe of santa by under-10s. I know thats a bit of a low blow, but you are appealing to the argument 'everyone else does it so it must be right'. Which bridge are we jumping off here?....lol
My point is there is a big difference between what you call "essentially a fact" and gravity being a fact.
I've heard all of this before, this post is going to be so much work to defend against but here goes...

Both creation and evolution give an account for what happened when time began. Since non of us were there, we can not come to a 100% conclusion.
We have a few options in this situation, either we make something up that seems to fit (or in this case believe a book that someone else made up) or we can use the scientific method to determine what the real answer is.
Evolution is vastly superior in that it has a lot of evidence to support it and it has made many predictions that turned out to be correct, let me point out one example. This is something that I myself wrote.

Evolution:
Meet Tiktaalik, Tiktaalik is a tropical fish fossil that was found in the Canadian Arctic, at approximately 78° North latitude. The climate is extremely harsh for all but a few weeks of each year. During this time, the ground only thaws 6 inches below the surface, making it very difficult for large plants to grow. Consequently, there are no trees or even bushes in the high Arctic. Instead, there is tundra: a landscape of mosses, lichen, and hardy grasses that can cope with the short growing seasons and harsh temperatures of around -28°C.”
Now I’ll let you ponder this for a moment, how could a tropical “fish” possibly be found embedded in rock in an environment where temperatures in winter average -28°C? Tropical fish are effective at living in warm tropical waters but could never survive in an environment as cold as the Canadian Arctic.
Furthermore, how did the scientists who were digging specifically for Tiktaalik know where to look? Surely the best place to look for ancient fossils of a tropical fish is in the tropics? What a crazy place to look?
The answer is that fossils buried in rock are unaffected by the cold, the Tiktaalik died in the tropics, long before it made it to the Canadian Arctic, but HOW? “The answer has to do with continental drift. Three hundred and seventy-five million years ago in the Devonian, the world did not look anything like it does today. First of all, the climate was much warmer overall, so the north and south pole were not covered in ice. Secondly, the continents were not arranged in the same way as they are today. The continent Tiktaalik lived on was not located at 78° N. Instead, it was located almost entirely in the southern hemisphere. And the stream Tiktaalik probably lived in was located in the Northern part of that continent, very close to the Equator. “
Ok, that explains it, but what that doesn’t explain is how the scientists knew exactly where in the world to dig and exactly what age rock they needed to dig in, the Tiktaalik could have lived at any time in the past, how did they know to dig in 375 million year old rock? The prediction was made using modern evolutionary theory.
There are a lot of ancient tropical fish that have been discovered in similar locations to Tiktaalik, but there are many things that make Tiktaalik really special and these can be observed by looking at its physical features.

It is incomplete but you get the idea. Evolution explains a lot of the things that Creation fails to, and it explains them very well.
Read this entire site: http://tiktaalik.uchicago.edu/
More tomorrow.

[Jez]

http://www.irreligion.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/occamsrazorbu0.jpg

just to shit stir a little ;)

[Sanx]

Kind of apt, given yod's post:


Ah hello. It's nice to see you all here. Now, as the more perceptive of you have probably realised by now, this is Hell. And I am the Devil.

Good Evening.

But you can call me Toby if you like. We try to keep things informal here. As well as infernal. That's just a little joke; I tell it every time.

Now, you're all here for ... eternity ... which I hardly need tell you is a heck of a long time! So you'll all get to know each other pretty well by the end. But for now I'm going to have to split you up into groups.

Will you STOP SCREAMING? ... Thank you.

Now, murderers. Murderers? Over here please. Thank you!

Looters and pillagers over here. Thieves, if you could join them? And lawyers, you're with that lot too.

Err, fornicators, if you could step forward? My god, there are a lot of you. Could I split you up into adulterers and the rest. Male adulterers, if you could just form a line in front of that small guillotine in the corner there.

Err. The French? Are you here? If you'd just like to come down here with the Germans. I'm sure you'll have plenty to talk about.

OK. Atheists? Atheists? Over here please. You must be feeling a right bunch of nitwits! Never mind.

And finally, Christians. Christians? I'm sorry, the Jews were right. If you could all come down here, that would be very kind.

OK! Right, well are there any questions? Yes? No, I'm afraid we don't have any toilets. If you'd read your bible you might have seen that it was 'damnation without relief'. So if you didn't go before you came then I'm afraid you're not going to enjoy yourself very much, but then I believe that's the idea.

Right, it's over to you, Adolf. And I'll catch you all later at the BBQ. Bye!

[alanzs]

I always liked "Jesus saves, Moses invests."
Amen bro....

[blue eyed savage]

Sheesh. Have you actually read that work of fiction you like so much? Moses didn't lay down the law. God did, inscribed the ten commandments on some tablets and gave them to Moses. He, with Aaron, then went about (mis)interpreting them. But plenty of laws had been laid down by god before that, and plenty since.



Oh ... so god got it wrong the first time around, and then clarified himself a few thousand years later. But I thought god was meant to be infallible?



So - you have a get out of jail free card, and that makes you want to use it less? That makes sense.



It makes it easier to believe when you fail to consider the fundamental questions such an explanation raises, like: if god created the world, where did god come from?



You made 4 good comments there. Might not have time to reply to them all tonight, getting tired an all that. Im gonna number them.

1 Yep, sorry, i oversimplified what went down for the sake of easy reading by others, my bad. Your right, God had laid down laws before (and after) the 10 commandments, but i suspect there arnt that many people here who are familiar with them. Not to sure where you were going with "...went about (mis)interpreting them..." im just gonna let it go.

2 The law was just a temporary cover for sin, the old testament is all about how God would send a savior/Christ to fully furfil the requirement of the law (the 10 commandments that Israle was to live by). There were also laws regarding sin before the ones God gave to moses which were for all the nations, not just Israel. But all the nations basically said screw you God, so he decided to set apart one nation to live by his rules.
Summary- God did not 'get it wrong', it was just like a patch on ya front tyre til you can get it to the shop. I don't know why he didn't just fix it then and there, i might have to read up a bit (lol God works in mysterious.....sorry)

3 Yeah, straight up i can see your point. Its not that black and white though. Is it the Japanese, where if you save their life they then become your servant or something?
Basically, cause of sin in the world we do heaps of things that piss God off, and we're all going to go to hell for it. Sux to be us, real easy to run and hide/deny that one. Once you accept it, and realise your screwed, you wanna do something about it. I often think about this sort of stuff when going for a nice cruse on the bike. And it so cool knowing that the answer is accepting that some guy you dint know (who knows you) got killed ages ago on your behalf. And when you accept that there is a problem, and a solution that doesn't require work or anything hard on your part, it gives you a real good feeling, im again gonna appeal to a good summer ride. Having this awareness on your mind then slowly changes the way you think. So like, if you ever get round to thinking about what it actually cost God with this free gift he gives everyone (salvation, his son dieing), you may also slowly come to appreciate that if we are worth dieing for, then he might be worth listening to. Since he cares enough to fix/forgive all the shit i do, then he probably has a optimal plan for getting through life (like taking the best line around a corner). Its like God above Pukekohe raceway in a chopper, giving you instructions while you race it for the first time. So he gives me a get outa jail card when i take the corner wrong, but i still accept that he knows the best path to take, and try and not take the wrong ones. Did i mention how much I screw up?
I think that answered your third point.

Fourth point - God created the universe and everything in it - but he's outside it. Thats like outside teh scope of science. The tiny bit of quantium physics i do know gives evidence that our reality is just a subset of a larger one. Think of The Matrix, its like we really are in it, and Gods outside it (in his helicopter if you want, although probably on an ZX10R somewhere).
Anywho, as i was saying in the quote you highlighted, we can't know where God came from etc - he made time and space - he exists outside of it. I do not believe the human mind can comprehend what this means - all i can think of is lots and lots of time, not 'before time', 'outside of time' etc. btw thats how he is omnipresent and all that, can see all the events in time/entire timeline at once.

We can have a go at free will if you want tomorrow, but that's nearing an hour I'm not getting back cause of this post. Thank God for weekend sleep-ins and getting extra sleep!

[Sanx]

fTzXJMU1sLc

MeSSwKffj9o

[Headbanger]

Well, Thank goodness thats all explained. I can sleep easy tonight.

[Sanx]

And some more wise words from George Carlin

rCz0-HY1TLU

[Subike]

what is the real truth of this matter?
I dont know , but

The truth I believe in is my Truth.
The truth you believe in is your Truth.
They are different, and thats the Truth.
But does that mean that my truth is wrong?
Or that your truth is wrong?
No. Because its the truth we each BELIEVE in, so it IS the truth, untill I or you accept something else ss being the truth.

I accept that your truth is right for you, it is your choice to believe it.

My truth, That God is real, etc etc etc, is right for me, can you accept that?

I am not into arguments on this subject, and cutting and pasting is a bore, but I will recomend a read for those who sincerly want answers. It is one mans view, sure, but it explains heaps if you have the courage to read it.


THE NEW EVIDENCE
That Demands A Verdict

Author Josh McDowell

publisher,Thomas Nelson Publishers.

Enjoy your life, I enjoy mine, Im happy God gave it to me ( my belieif, OK with that?)

[Disco Dan]

I dont like it when people tell me "praise the lord"

Why what has this lord done anyway? I understand praising children when they pee in their potty and not on the carpet. But a grown man? Mind boggles.




p/t

[Gubb]

How does being a homo help anyone survive?

But God created us in his own image, that makes God a homo.

[jrandom]

This thread is rubbish (apart from Graham's initial post). I hope the mods have the sense to give it its own space in PD instead of dumping it on top of the Scottish thread.

3, 2, 1...

[10bikekid]

what is the real truth of this matter?
I dont know , but

The truth I believe in is my Truth.
The truth you believe in is your Truth.
They are different, and thats the Truth.
But does that mean that my truth is wrong?
Or that your truth is wrong?
No. Because its the truth we each BELIEVE in, so it IS the truth, untill I or you accept something else ss being the truth.

I accept that your truth is right for you, it is your choice to believe it.



My truth, That God is real, etc etc etc, is right for me, can you accept that?

I am not into arguments on this subject, and cutting and pasting is a bore, but I will recomend a read for those who sincerly want answers. It is one mans view, sure, but it explains heaps if you have the courage to read it.


THE NEW EVIDENCE
That Demands A Verdict

Author Josh McDowell

publisher,Thomas Nelson Publishers.

Enjoy your life, I enjoy mine, Im happy God gave it to me ( my belieif, OK with that?)

Well said, theres certainly some truth in that:yes:

And I would add to that though our Truths may be subjective, Ultimate Truth does not Change and it should be all true seekers aim to draw as near to that as possible what ever the cost,

PS, Subike, as you can see Im right into your Harley Truth

[kickingzebra]

arts papers? ah no, you'll find them in the college of sciences

and incidentally, i've never cooked fries in my life

it's nice to have an education, i know stuff, and i get paid for it

I have seen and observed that these disciplines are situated within the college of sciences, so right you are, HOWEVER I am still struggling to find a darwinist who is more than about 90 years old, much less several (hundreds of) billions of years old.

Maths, science, or religion; a faulty assumption, coupled with observable fact will very rarely produce a matter of fact, no matter how well dressed.

Your "moral" viewpoint says an education earns you kudos, respect, earning power, and a stunning in errancy in fact.

Pray tell, what is the difference from blue eyed savage cutting and pasting Christian apologists, and scientists, and you regurgitating your university professors and the curriculum writers thoughts?

Does it compound matters for you to know that many of the creationists and apologists are in fact professors of higher education facilities themselves?

Precious few here have the time, research facilities, knowledge, or inclination to actually pursue the truth for themselves, which in turn implies that the most vehement of us on either side of the God debate is still at best a regurgitator, and at worst, a badly studied one.

Why then the vehemence and antagonism, may I remind you fine upright and upstanding bastions of scientific thought on here, that Galileo was a fool, Einstein was a retard, and Columbus a moron according to the well researched scientific dogma of the day, and does anyone sincerely think that we are so much wiser than those that lived 4 or 5 centuries ago?

The annals of history will record this as a great period of learning, coupled with some incredibly stupid conclusions based on the (scant) available fact.

Both sides of the ledger are undoubtedly incorrect in many of their assumptions.

Grahameeboy is right, Christians are the whole gammut of stupid, and yet, as a cross section of general populance, we are really no different percentagewise in our stupidity...

Watch out people, the educated dumb has you..


(those that can't do, teach!)

[Big Dave]

God bless Joe!
At least George knows for sure or not now.


http://www.americanhumanist.org/about/manifesto1.html

[kickingzebra]

God bless Joe!
At least George knows for sure or not now.


http://www.americanhumanist.org/about/manifesto1.html


Brilliant, take the bible, remove all reference to God, remove the concept of life, and then judgement, the just arbitrator no longer has rule over what we do or do not do, so do right because we should foster the growth of humanity....

Why?

Humanism in any guise, only has the object of railing against the one who can be called greater than us.

Why is man so hellbent on proving we are the preeminent species? That our greatness is the peak of universal greatness?


If christianity is such a poor an idea, then why do so many spend an inordinate amount of time trying to discredit it?

Surely if it is so weak, then as a child seeing snow where there is none, one might play along for a while, and then quietly ignore the childs' flight of fancy?

However, if the real issue is the blackness within each and every soul, and the desire for justification, then each and every opportunity to refute someone else's beliefs, adds weight, or perhaps removes the spotlight from the evil each must face within themselves.

A strong refutation of the stated belief of said religious humanists, is the response within this thread. The assertion is that it is within mans best interests to foster humanity, and grow goodwill. The extension of which is that man is of course, basically good at heart, less the complications.

Christianity does not maintain this illusion, christianity seeks to dispel it in fact, and condemns you before you even open your mouth in word, or move your hand to deed. Your condemnation is so deep, that no purgatory can atone, no action can make good, your sentence is entirely just, and your own thoughts and actions add weight to the condemnation.

The True Christian has accepted, understood, and feared the depths of his own soul, his own depravity condemns him, and in the face of a final judgement, has thrown himself on the mercy of the final judge, not as a get out of jail free ticket, but as the last vestige of good within seeks to throw off the oppression of all the action and thought judged as evil.

God is not the actions of Christians, God is not just the words contained within (whichever version floats your boat of) the bible, God is the ultimate bringer of rightness. And separator of all which is not right.

The message therefore, is to chikkity check yo self, before you wreck yoself. If you don't like what you see, you can spend a lifetime trying to change it, and though small changes may evidence themselves, the ultimate goal post is set beyond your vision, much less beyond your reach.

The question is, in the light of a Right God, who knows your thoughts and actions, what will you do? What can you do?

It is foremost an individual problem. Pretending there is nothing, does not neccesarily alleviate the impending doom now does it?

[Headbanger]

Jesus Christ, More fluff then in a pillow factory.

[Big Dave]

>> Why is man so hellbent on proving we are the preeminent species? That our greatness is the peak of universal greatness?<<

Interesting. I read it as we've outgrown fairy tales.

[Max Headroom]

This thread is rubbish (apart from Graham's initial post). I hope the mods have the sense to give it its own space in PD instead of dumping it on top of the Scottish thread.

3, 2, 1...

Agree completely. Although I must admit I'm struggling to see the relevance of introducing this thread in the first place....

This is a thread with nothing whatsoever to recommend it. It's just an argument conducted by folk who enjoy arguing about religion with no likely conclusion in sight, let alone any of those involved changing their point of view. Quite sad, really.

If this was about what God has done for someone specifically, that would be different. Faith has the power to positively change peoples' lives. This thread is miles away from that outcome.

Can we talk about bikes instead please?

[Big Dave]

There should be a part in discussion forums for people to post about why they object to discussion in forums.

[Headbanger]

First I have to suffocate a few kittens, Then, Its all about the bikes.

Maybe I'll drink a pint of kitten blood while sitting on my bike.

[Headbanger]

There should be a part in discussion forums for people to post about why they object to discussion in forums.

I object to that notion.

[sinfull]

I'm watching the young and the restless on tv ! God help me

[gijoe1313]

Jebus saves! But Maradona scores on the rebound! It was the hand of Gawd!

[Big Dave]

Jebus saves! But Maradona scores on the rebound! It was the hand of Gawd!

A man's gotta believe in something. I believe I'll have another drink.

[Slyer]

Beer never fails!

[blue eyed savage]

dont mind the odd drink myself. now to find my flatmates home brew

[Bloody Mad Woman (BMW)]

From the time I was born I was told I was a sinner - well I figured if I've got the name I may as well play the game. I said to my father at about 13 - ok you get this guy that has "lived" according to the commandments etc, lived in hell fire and damnation - then you get the guy who has lived life to the full - on their death beds each says they are really sorry and forgiven - well hell ya don't have to be Einstein to figure out who had the most fun.

Unfortunately to some extent my partner is quite religious - I have told him I am not - I am into spirituality. I want to go and see him etc he says it will be in Gods time and God will provide - well I turned around and said Oh Yeah I can see God now just going to the travel office to arrange our flights. Felt like adding and make it first class baby.

Did you go to church today honey -= I told him I dont do church - so he sent me the day's "message" just about told him to f off - don't shove that shite down my throat - had enough of that with the Sperm Donor that fathered me.

I don't mind anyone believing in any religion they like but just don't foist it on me.

[Max Headroom]

I don't mind anyone believing in any religion they like but just don't foist it on me.


I understand how you feel. Even though I'm "one of them", my favourite quote is this:

"Preach the Gospel at all times. Use words if necessary."
(St. Francis of Assisi)

Ultimately few care for religious debates, because little (usually nothing) is achieved. And unless our actions and lifestyle are congruent with what we say as Christians, we are quickly exposed as hypocrites. Unfortunately we are more often perceived as shallow, critical, ignorant and/or hypocritical than living a lifestyle that has substance and integrity.

A rare recent exception would be the families of the teenagers who drowned on the school trip several months ago. Andy Bray (one of the fathers) spoke with a degree of humility and integrity rarely seen publicly, especially under the prevailing circumstances.

[Headbanger]

Gods a sadistic bastard ain't he, I wonder how he chose which of those kids he would let die, and why he saved the others.

Perhaps it was purely random, Just for shits and giggles.

[Slyer]

What annoyed me about that was the sentiment that the one boy was saved by god, that somehow the rest deserved to die but not him.
(I can't remember the story exactly)

[kickingzebra]

meh, this earth is the intro alone, so I doubt those kids that skipped the intro and straight into the story give too much care, as for the one guy, maybe he just likes to read every word?

[Swoop]

This entire thread is an affront to The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

May you all be touched by His Noodly Goodness.

[Sanx]

May you all be touched by His Noodly Goodness.

His Noodly Appendage, you heretic.

[Mikkel]

The sucky thing about the religious discussion is that since they are wrong there won't be an afterlife in which we can point, laugh at them and say "I told you so".

"Burn the heretic!" (The heretic usually being someone with a different opinion and/or lots of gold.)

[Meekey_Mouse]

"Burn the heretic!" (The heretic usually being someone with a different opinion and/or lots of gold.)

Oooh, I like gold! If one of you guys are of that description of a heretic and don't want to be burnt... Gimme' the gold :D I like flames any way :lol:

[Slyer]

I'll believe whatever you want me to for gold. :woohoo:

[Swoop]

His Noodly Appendage, you heretic.
I'm NOT WORTHY!!

(Hurriedly races off to make pennance with the FSM)

[Big Dave]

With this Noodles dude - is there a path to Al dente?

[Swoop]

It is a very saucy question...

[Sanx]

With this Noodles dude - is there a path to Al dente?

The path to true Pastafarianism is long, arduous and lined with meatballs. May the Flying Spaghetti Monster, hallowed be his name, guide you in your quest.

Just remember to wear full pirate regalia and be nice to any midgets you might meet on the way.

[Big Dave]

I see - and what if we are tempted by a Lasagnian bearing a rich Bechamel sauce?

[Sanx]

I see - and what if we are tempted by a Lasagnian bearing a rich Bechamel sauce?

The infidel should be killed.

(This response is copyright christians, muslims, hindus, sikhs, more muslims, jews, more muslims, etc.)

[ManDownUnder]

Something that amuses me are street corner preachers.

Preach the gospel - sure... but to do it in a way that was "current"... 2,000 years is a bit of a bad show. IMHO it just looks stupid. It's a literal interpretation of what should be done despite the fact the electronic age has well and truly surpassed it.

[Ixion]

I see - and what if we are tempted by a Lasagnian bearing a rich Bechamel sauce?

Gnocchi him on the head

[Wiki Drifter]

Become An Atheist Today & Save!

<object width="450" height="370"><param name="movie" value="http://www.liveleak.com/e/f37_1185643008"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.liveleak.com/e/f37_1185643008" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="450" height="370"></embed></object>

[Headbanger]

meh, this earth is the intro alone, so I doubt those kids that skipped the intro and straight into the story give too much care, as for the one guy, maybe he just likes to read every word?


You think they were happy to die?

To lose everything?, For their parents and families to suffer so greatly?
Based on a 2000 year old fairy tale? a fairy tale so flawed and desperate that it makes no sense?

Can you imagine what those kids went through?, what they missed out on? Life is the greatest gift, no matter where it came from.

People such as yourself hide the harsh reality of life and death behind gibberish, For that I pity you.

Every day above ground is a good day, Celebrate it.

[kickingzebra]

Life is the greatest gift, no matter where it came from.

A great gift for sure, but look at your words, does not a gift imply a giver?

The greatest gift would have to be eternal life surely,
if this life is indeed a shadow of the real.

If not, the fact that death is not just and fair should not matter in the slightest if your own moral warehouse is the peak of moral dignity in the universe.

[Headbanger]

Yeah, waffle waffle waffle.

I have no idea if there is a creator or not, Neither do you.

You merely have a book that is clearly the word of man, To read it and think otherwise is delusion.

You can have your imagined eternal life, Use it to shield yourself from this one.

Which is great by the way, Pity some can't see it as they are consumed by the "next one".

[NOMIS]

If they start preaching that funny stuff to me, my favorite response is "jesus died for his own sins, NOT MINE!"

arrghh man,,,,, nevermind

[NOMIS]

Me and Jesus are home boys.

[NOMIS]

primative men what a crock.
altered? read the last page of the bible - Revelation 22:18
the bible makes a lot of sence mabe you should try reading it some time because u havent have ya!?

Rock on Brother.

Okay im slowly picking through this thread and I have so many opinions but I will hold my tounge,

I think Half the people who comment on this thread dont have a clue what they are even commenting about, the atheists on here have no reason not to believe other than there happy with what there doing...
so why mock someone elses beliefs? then try talk bible verses and hypocrisy when they dont understand a single part of it because there missing there own personal relationship with god?? Im talking about Comments liek the bible was written by men ectect.. yes it was but its not there words. But again I already know the majority wont even understand what i mean by saying that.
And in theory looking at it it is hard to understand.. Im just going to stop there Because I can go on and on trying to explain yet there will still be 1000's of questions and comments countering what ever me as a Chrisitan , god, Jesus Christ has to say
There is also a differnece about knowing About God and knowing God.

Other than that I will be quiet

[MisterD]

Im talking about Comments liek the bible was written by men ectect.. yes it was but its not there words. But again I already know the majority wont even understand what i mean by saying that.

Did god personally tell you that he dictated the bible to it's authors? No? Ok, so again you're just going on what some bloke told you....in which case I have this bridge for sale...

[NOMIS]

Did god personally tell you that he dictated the bible to it's authors? No? Ok, so again you're just going on what some bloke told you....in which case I have this bridge for sale...

Who told you it wasn't?

[Headbanger]

Who told you it wasn't?


LMFAO.

Worst comeback in the history of the internet.

Quite an accomplishment, Considering the 7 year olds and idiots of mass stupidity that make up such a large portion of the population

[Jez]

theres a tag to this thread ... to each their own ... cant we just leave it at that rather than starting another pointless religion thread?

the OP was simply pointing out that Christians (himself being one) say some dumb shit ... i totally agree with that, but i would go further and say that Atheists (my preferred choice of belief structure) also say some dumb shit ... in fact everyone everywhere says dumb shit at some stage, which has been demonstrated several times already in this thread ... including by myself ;)

:Pokey:

[Headbanger]

As an agnostic I don't judge and condemn others to eternal damnation for not believing as I do.

Nor do others who share my views have a 2000 year history of bloodshed based on our views.

Nor do we knock on peoples doors......

Christianity/organized religion deserves everything it gets.

[xwhatsit]

Who told you it wasn't?
I believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

What? You think She doesn't exist?!

How can you tell me She doesn't exist? She's invisible! You can't prove that She doesn't exist.



Blessed Be Her Holy Hooves.

[mstriumph]

I believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

What? You think She doesn't exist?!

How can you tell me She doesn't exist? She's invisible! You can't prove that She doesn't exist.



Blessed Be Her Holy Hooves.

Bless you my child .... :innocent:
but you really MUST stop telling people about me, you know - they'll think you are nutso :shutup:

[Big Dave]

And so it was written; Never play leapfrog with a Unicorn.

[NOMIS]

this convo will go round and around for generations as it has done before, and its not just christians who try preach there faith non believers do exactly the same by questioning a persons faith. Yes some do say stupid things, So do people just because a person is question doesnt make then not Human or better than any one else,

[imdying]

Christianity/organized religion deserves everything it gets.As do you ;)

[Big Dave]

I deserve a new Buell.

[imdying]

Dave, I will pray that you get a new Buell.

[Headbanger]

As do you ;)


sweeeeeeeeeet

I'm pretty happy with everything I have.

And if as I assume, when you die, You rot, I'll be able to look back and take pride in living a hell of a life.......Or perhaps just be scared out of my mind about dieing.

[Ixion]

I deserve a new Buell.

But what grave sin has the Buell committed that it should deserve you?.

[_Shrek_]

"it is appointed for man/woman to die once, but after this the judgment" Heb-9:27

now if I die & there is no Jesus (God) I have lost nothing but gained a way of life that was for the better for me & those around me

on the other hand if you don't know Jesus (God) before you die you loose every thing & You get to die twice

but the Lord gave us a choice, you've made your's & I've made mine

[Big Dave]

But what grave sin has the Buell committed that it should deserve you?.

How about taking me to the BRONZ meeting a week late?
I went - where were all you guys?

[jrandom]

now if I die & there is no Jesus (God) I have lost nothing but gained a way of life that was for the better for me & those around me

Yes, Pascal's Wager, etc.

But in my experience the 'way of life' involved is choking, mind-numbing, restrictive, judgmental and various other unpleasant things.

Definitely not a worthwhile trade-off.

[Sanx]

gained a way of life that was for the better for me & those around me

:lol:

What a crock of shit. There have been tens of millions of people murdered in the last 100 years as the result of someone believing an imaginary friend. How is that way of life better for anyone?

I'm an atheist. I don't kill anyone over their belief in an imaginary friend. I don't kill anyone because their method of praying to their imaginary friend is any different to mine. I don't kill anyone because of their ethnic background. I don't rape little boys, bomb abortion clinics, firebomb shopping malls, impose the death penalty on pre-teen girls who get raped, disown my children for marrying someone of a different faith, prevent my children from receiving life-saving medical treatment, consider women or black people or any other group as inferior*, commit acts of mental cruelty on children, tell anyone they're going to suffer for all eternity, or impose my rules and regulations on anyone.

Sure, I'll quite happily declare that I regard a belief in an imaginary friend as a sign of mental inadequacy. It doesn't matter whether you address that imaginary friend as God, Jesus, Allah, Jehova, Shiva, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Penelope the Pink Unicorn, I will still regard blind faith in something completely intangible with no supporting evidence as a sign of stupidity.

But to (misquote) Pascale's wager and claim that your belief in an imaginary friend makes you a better person and life for those around you better is not only laughable, it's complete horseshit.


* Except Harley Davidson riders.

[imdying]

What a crock of shit. There have been tens of millions of people murdered in the last 100 years as the result of someone believing an imaginary friend. How is that way of life better for anyone?Possibly because even more people have been killed for even more ludicrous reasons in that time.

[Sanx]

Possibly because even more people have been killed for even more ludicrous reasons in that time.

Yes - tens of millions of people have been killed for reasons that didn't involve religion. But you don't find anyone using their atheism was an excuse for going out and committing genocide, do you? Therein lies the difference.

[Mikkel]

Possibly because even more people have been killed for even more ludicrous reasons in that time.

So what, in your opinion, could possibly be a more ludicrous reason?

Starvation?
Old age?
Disease?

Generally you won't see anything amounting to genocide without some grotesquely absurb reasoning behind it. Doesn't matter if it's religious or idealistic - but such acts are always perpetrated by an erronous belief and the people who blindly follow those who dictate the "word of god"*.

*The word of god being anything from religious scriptures to party policies - fanatism can be found many places.

[imdying]

Yes - tens of millions of people have been killed for reasons that didn't involve religion. But you don't find anyone using their atheism was an excuse for going out and committing genocide, do you? Therein lies the difference.I missed the news flash where money and land were now good reasons for killing tens of millions of people, funny that.

[Mikkel]

I missed the news flash where money and land were now good reasons for killing tens of millions of people, funny that.

You don't kill tens of millions of people for money and land without having some sort of driving force behind it. Sure that driving force could, at the heart, be an ambition for land and money - but it'll almost always be disguised as religious or political move, with a fanatical support.

[imdying]

but it'll almost always be disguised as religious or political move, with a fanatical support.That's not religion driving it then... that's just good old sin :yes:

[Sanx]

That's not religion driving it then... that's just good old sin :yes:

Oh, so killing tens of millions of people because you want land and money is a sin, but killing tens of millions of people because voices in your head told you to isn't.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[imdying]

Oh, so killing tens of millions of people because you want land and money is a sin, but killing tens of millions of people because voices in your head told you to isn't.

Thanks for clearing that up.If that excites you... then get this... all sins are equal... killing people in their millions, yeah, no more of a sin than breaking the speed limit (somewhere in the bible it talks about obeying the laws of the land, give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar or similar).

[carver]

all christians should be fed to the lions or burnt at the stake.

mormonisim is the only true tolerant religion

[Mikkel]

If that excites you... then get this... all sins are equal... killing people in their millions, yeah, no more of a sin than breaking the speed limit (somewhere in the bible it talks about obeying the laws of the land, give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar or similar).

And you don't think that is fucked up? :scratch:

Honestly?

[Sanx]

If that excites you... then get this... all sins are equal... killing people in their millions, yeah, no more of a sin than breaking the speed limit (somewhere in the bible it talks about obeying the laws of the land, give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar or similar).

Matthew 22:21 -"Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's"

The amusing thing is that this verse was in relation, to and later used as a reason for, breaking the laws of the land; specifically those laws around taxation. The phrase, attributed to Jesus, is sufficiently ambiguous that it can be quoted in favour of positions that are diametrically opposite to each other.

You would have been better off quoting Romans 13:1 - "Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God and those which exist are established by God."

But getting back to your statement earlier ... are you seriously trying to say that genocide is equal in severity to speeding? Are you insane?

[imdying]

There's a whole heap of insane/fucked up things in the world, what's the big deal?

[Mikkel]

There's a whole heap of insane/fucked up things in the world, what's the big deal?

You don't have to be part of the madness though. If anything Christians should appreciate that man has the ability to distinguish between good and bad... And that you have a responsibility to live a good life.

If organised religion - based upon these virtues or not - happens to be bad, then maybe the good man is the one who thinks for himself.

[Sanx]

You don't have to be part of the madness though. If anything Christians should appreciate that man has the ability to distinguish between good and bad... And that you have a responsibility to live a good life.

Unfortunately, the meaning of good usually gets boiled down to in accordance with god's law. And as anyone with an impartial interest in religion knows, god's law can, and often is, used as justification for whatever evil the perpetrator wants to justify.

Don't like jews? God's law says they must be killed.
Don't like abortion? God's law says abortion's evil, and so those working in abortion clinics must be killed.
Don't like alcohol? God's law says that alcohol is evil and therefore all pubs should be firebombed.

Etc. Etc.

One might expect someone with a faith to understand that man can distinguish between good and evil, but you're expecting that someone's interpretation of what is good and what is evil matches your own. And anyone with a strong enough faith is more than capable of perverting the understanding of good and evil enough to convince themselves that they are on the side of the angels, no matter what atrocity they've committed.

And as for thinking for oneself? Nope - that's something religion has a huge problem with.

[Big Dave]

mormonisim is the only true tolerant religion

Fark that - I have enough trouble getting one wife to mow the lawns.

[carver]

Fark that - I have enough trouble getting one wife to mow the lawns.

come on, its the only true religion

[Sanx]

come on, its the only true religion

OK. First post was a good joke. Not funny any more.

[NOMIS]

I think about 90% of the posts on here really need to understand Christianity abit more.

Carver- im not even going to bother there.

Sanx - Alcohole is not evil its the over indulgence it actually states drunkeness not alcohole.. And i agree with that aswel. Especially with NZ's drinking habbits.

Gods law gets changed alot by people they like to see it and twist is in what ever way they can to suit themselves and yes it sucks. Hard to see it sometimes.

[Sanx]

Sanx - Alcohole is not evil its the over indulgence it actually states drunkeness not alcohole.

Your version of evil may not include alcohol. But mormons and muslims would disagree.

As I said - which version of "god's law" do you want to pervert?

[alanzs]

Gods law: "The strong survive and the weak get eaten." Ask any sheep in the flock, they'll tell you.

[Mikkel]

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

[imdying]

I think about 90% of the posts on here really need to understand Christianity abit more.Pretty much... Basically, you've got two things to worry about... love God with all your heart, and treat your neighbour as you would treat yourself. If you can't do those two things, then the rest is irrelevant to you and just static. You won't be judged on the actions of Christianity, you'll be judged solely on your own actions.

[Slyer]

Pretty much... Basically, you've got two things to worry about... love God with all your heart, and treat your neighbour as you would treat yourself. If you can't do those two things, then the rest is irrelevant to you and just static. You won't be judged on the actions of Christianity, you'll be judged solely on your own actions.

Number 2 is good advice, usually.

[Ixion]

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.

"An it harm none, do what thou wilt" , is the Wiccan law. And not a bad one,

[Ixion]

Pretty much... Basically, you've got two things to worry about... love God with all your heart, and treat your neighbour as you would treat yourself. If you can't do those two things, then the rest is irrelevant to you and just static. You won't be judged on the actions of Christianity, you'll be judged solely on your own actions.

This is indeed the law and the prophets. And the splendid thing is, it works for everyone:Christian;Muslim;Hindu;Sikh;atheist whatever. And nothing more is necessary for salvation.

[NOMIS]

Pretty much... Basically, you've got two things to worry about... love God with all your heart, and treat your neighbour as you would treat yourself. If you can't do those two things, then the rest is irrelevant to you and just static. You won't be judged on the actions of Christianity, you'll be judged solely on your own actions.

Ill keep loving God whole heartedly then,

[imdying]

Ill keep loving God whole heartedly then,
And your neighbours ;)

[Headbanger]

I'm going to stick with mildly fond of my neighbours, But if the old shits leave and get replaced by a houseful of hot bints I could work on aiming higher.

[kickingzebra]

:lol:

What a crock of shit. There have been tens of millions of people murdered in the last 100 years as the result of someone believing an imaginary friend. How is that way of life better for anyone?

I'm an atheist. .


So was Stalin.

[Bikernereid]

"An it harm none, do what thou wilt" , is the Wiccan law. And not a bad one,

I think that you will find that christianity has stolen quite a bit from the Pagans. Obviously too lazy to come up with all their own ideas!!

[kickingzebra]

But in my experience the 'way of life' involved is choking, mind-numbing, restrictive, judgmental and various other unpleasant things.


Perhaps, Oh wise one, your experience is not yet complete and all seeing?

[Mikkel]

"An it harm none, do what thou wilt" , is the Wiccan law. And not a bad one,

It comes from Aleister Crowley though. Not a bad man either - just not mainstream.


Ill keep loving God whole heartedly then,

Halleluja! :rolleyes:


So was Stalin.

Well, communism is a very organised religion as far as I am concerned (complete unwillingness to deal with reality in a sensible manner) and plenty of fanatism involved as well.


I am all for spirituality. What I can not abide are people who let themselves be indoctrinated, choose not to think for themselves and opt for one of the handy package solutions (christianity, islam, etc...)
I you are a christian/muslim/hinduis/buddist/whatever and can't find anything about your religion that you don't agree with or disprove off you need to open your eyes and engage your mental faculties. That is all.

[kickingzebra]

I think that you will find that christianity has stolen quite a bit from the Pagans. Obviously too lazy to come up with all their own ideas!!

And possibly christians did do just that, but then possibly The one that created us implanted a certain (caution, plagiarized verbosity to follow) Moral Compass within all humanity, and this saying is merely a watered down attempt at proving ones own self worth in the light of eternity.

[MisterD]

So was Stalin.

Who also had a moustache. Does that make the millions he killed in the cause of movember?

[Mikkel]

And possibly christians did do just that, but then possibly The one that created us implanted a certain (caution, plagiarized verbosity to follow) Moral Compass within all humanity, and this saying is merely a watered down attempt at proving ones own self worth in the light of eternity.

Or perhaps, just maybe, our evolution as a social species meant that morality had to evolve before a structured society was even possible.

But of course - using god as an argument is like multiplying by zero... It'll solve any troublesome problem - only problem is that it isn't a valid response.

[kickingzebra]

Who also had a moustache. Does that make the millions he killed in the cause of movember?

You know Winston Peters right?

[Bikernereid]

And possibly christians did do just that, but then possibly The one that created us implanted a certain (caution, plagiarized verbosity to follow) Moral Compass within all humanity, and this saying is merely a watered down attempt at proving ones own self worth in the light of eternity.

I would like to think that we are all a product of ourt parents, ancestors, EVOLUTION and nothing to do with a bleedin creator. I have seen my parents, received love, support, nuturing and respect (to name a few) from them and my family and saw where I can from for 4 generations. To date I don't ever remember receibing any such thing from The One!

I have never seen The One (unless you mean my OWNER) and until him/her/it and Jesus both come down and bite me on both arse cheeks I will stick with being a product of proven evlution thanks.

and Blessed Be is also Pagan (and sounds like some other hyjacked from the pagan, Christian saying)

[kickingzebra]

Or perhaps, just maybe, our evolution as a social species meant that morality had to evolve before a structured society was even possible.

But of course - using god as an argument is like multiplying by zero... It'll solve any troublesome problem - only problem is that it isn't a valid response.

Yeah yeah, civilized society is a great idea, why doesn't someone start one?

And majoring on your word choice, rather than your linguistics, If evolution is so bloody good, explain to me PLEASE the death mechanism? Surely constant improvement would erode this?
Explain why Good old Dolly the Sheep (the clone) version had pre aged at maturity, by roughly the same period of time that the clonee had spent on the planet prior conception?

This ticking time bomb of death surely cannot benefit evolutions senseless march toward perfection?

[jrandom]

Perhaps, Oh wise one, your experience is not yet complete and all seeing?

If your particular set of fantasies and imaginary friends work for you, philosophically speaking, then that's cool. So long as you don't try to push it on anyone else, of course.

Just reporting on what I've observed personally.

[Ixion]

I think that you will find that christianity has stolen quite a bit from the Pagans. Obviously too lazy to come up with all their own ideas!!

Indeed so. But perhaps because they were too wise to reinvent the wheel. Or to fix that which was not broken.

[kickingzebra]

If your particular set of fantasies and imaginary friends work for you, philosophically speaking, then that's cool. So long as you don't try to push it on anyone else, of course.


Why Not push it on anyone else?

[Slyer]

Yeah yeah, civilized society is a great idea, why doesn't someone start one?

And majoring on your word choice, rather than your linguistics, If evolution is so bloody good, explain to me PLEASE the death mechanism? Surely constant improvement would erode this?
Explain why Good old Dolly the Sheep (the clone) version had pre aged at maturity, by roughly the same period of time that the clonee had spent on the planet prior conception?

This ticking time bomb of death surely cannot benefit evolutions senseless march toward perfection?
Evolution doesn't aim for anything, it is a completely non-concious process that favours the strongest. Death is actually a very important part, if death was not a threat there would be no advantage to being stronger.
Without death there is no reason to reproduce, therefore no chance for mutation to occur and thus no chance of improvement.

In terms of evolution there is zero reason for animals to live much past the time they can't reproduce any more.
THIS is why the elderly have all the health problems, nothing ever lived as long as they did back then so all the shortcomings of being that old never were evolved out. Old age simply wasn't an issue.

Consider this, a gene that allows people to stay really healthy after 60 wouldn't be an advantage as no one ever lived that long as so it couldn't help the species survive.
Evolution answers why we hiccup (vestige from our amphibian ancestors) and also why the male testes loops in such a fucked up way. (see attached)

*Sigh* why do I bother..

[AllanB]

Nothing wrong with those spunky ones crying out 'oh god oh god oh god'

[kickingzebra]

Evolution doesn't aim for anything, it is a completely non-concious process that favours the strongest. Death is actually a very important part, if death was not a threat there would be no advantage to being stronger.
A process (by definition) that doesn't aim for anything? really?


Without death there is no reason to reproduce, therefore no chance for mutation to occur and thus no chance of improvement.

In terms of evolution there is zero reason for animals to live much past the time they can't reproduce any more.
THIS is why the elderly have all the health problems, nothing ever lived as long as they did back then so all the shortcomings of being that old never were evolved out. Old age simply wasn't an issue.
So the law of thermodynamics has problems with its starter motor?


Consider this, a gene that allows people to stay really healthy after 60 wouldn't be an advantage as no one ever lived that long as so it couldn't help the species survive.
Evolution answers why we hiccup (vestige from our amphibian ancestors) and also why the male testes loops in such a fucked up way. (see attached)

*Sigh* why do I bother..

If the ongoing furtherment of the species is the goal, and evolution did provide longer life, then this would fit perfectly, we now have the perfect circular argument. By definition of evolutionary theory, small (or not so small, depending on who plagiarized your ideas from) changes, which contribute to greater survival rates, or the betterment of a species, death betters the species, but longer life benefits the species, maybe a better but shorter life is acceptable, but seeing as it is all random chance, why indeed do we bother? we should be out there having fun,

Seeing as we are so all knowing but not one of us can change the colour our hair naturally grows, it does all seem rather futile.

[Slyer]

A process (by definition) that doesn't aim for anything? really?
I'll give you this one, you are right. But the aim certainly isn't perfection in the way that any of us would describe it.



If the ongoing furtherment of the species is the goal, and evolution did provide longer life, then this would fit perfectly, we now have the perfect circular argument. By definition of evolutionary theory, small (or not so small, depending on who plagiarized your ideas from) changes, which contribute to greater survival rates, or the betterment of a species, death betters the species, but longer life benefits the species, maybe a better but shorter life is acceptable, but seeing as it is all random chance, why indeed do we bother? we should be out there having fun

Let me break this right down to the very heart of evolution, genes.
Evolution is all about the survival of genes, this is why you are getting confused. Some things that seem like the complete opposite of an improvement to the animal are actually an improvement to their genes.

Consider that all the genes are part of an imaginary contest, the genes that are the most helpful will survive and the ones that are less than helpful will disappear.
Genes that help their host animal to survive will grow in number, the animal survives and reproduces and therefore more of the gene to go around.
The reason you are having problems understanding is because many of the things that are actually harmful to the animal help the GENES to survive.
I hope this makes sense, I'm no science teacher.

Richard Dawkins has an entire book about it and he explains it a million times better than I ever could. Read the wikipedia article at the very least and you might understand.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene

Genes can reproduce at the expense of the organism

There are other times when the implicit interests of the vehicle and replicator are in conflict, such as the genes behind certain male spiders' instinctive mating behaviour, which increase the organism's inclusive fitness by allowing it to reproduce, but shorten its life by exposing it to the risk of being eaten by the cannibalistic female. Another good example is the existence of segregation distortion genes that are detrimental to their host but nonetheless propagate themselves at its expense. Likewise, the existence of junk DNA that provides no benefit to its host, once a puzzle, can be more easily explained. A more controversial example is aging, in which an old organism's death makes room for its offspring, benefiting its genes at the cost of the organism.

[Bikernereid]

I'll give you this one, you are right. But the aim certainly isn't perfection in the way that any of us would describe it.



Let me break this right down to the very heart of evolution, genes.
Evolution is all about the survival of genes, this is why you are getting confused. Some things that seem like the complete opposite of an improvement to the animal are actually an improvement to their genes.

Consider that all the genes are part of an imaginary contest, the genes that are the most helpful will survive and the ones that are less than helpful will disappear.
Genes that help their host animal to survive will grow in number, the animal survives and reproduces and therefore more of the gene to go around.
The reason you are having problems understanding is because many of the things that are actually harmful to the animal help the GENES to survive.
I hope this makes sense, I'm no science teacher.

Richard Dawkins has an entire book about it and he explains it a million times better than I ever could. Read the wikipedia article at the very least and you might understand.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene

don't put yoursef down I have read dawkins book and you provided a very good summary!!

here are some interesting videos to watch- God Delusion, Selfish gene etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciFe8JmR-nY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yENWf5ThIg4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQIKd-S44Hw

[kickingzebra]

Teleological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleology) forces such as rational foresight cannot explain the outcomes of trial-and-error (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial-and-error) processes, such as evolution, and thus have no place in biological applications (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioural_ecology).

I love that bit... One ever so slight assumption, carefully glossed to sound factual,

I can understand and appreciate that gene centred view, but surely the carrier of the gene is more than vital to the survival of the gene, so the whole unit should be viewed as a whole, thereby making the gene centered argument an informative logical walkthrough, but arguably not much more.

Again though, surely it benefits the gene (and carrier of said gene) to survive longer, as longer survival rates, higher resistance to death would ensure its survival in a more thorough fashion, higher survivability will outlive all of the weaker strands, and coupled with reproductive ability will result in a population explosion which will eliminate the competitive genes...

[Slyer]

Genes don't live and die in the same sense as animals..
I'm going to have to read your links to figure out what you are going on about...

[Slyer]

A teleological school of thought is one that holds all things to be designed for or directed toward a final result, that there is an inherent purpose or final cause for all that exists.
This doesn't apply to evolution as it is not heading to a final result and there is no inherent purpose. It simply points in a direction, it has no end and no correct or incorrrect path.


Teleological forces such as rational foresight cannot explain the outcomes of trial-and-error processes, such as evolution, and thus have no place in biological applications.
So your argument fails.

[jrandom]

Why Not push it on anyone else?

Because it's entirely fabricated and indefensible, and can only be argued for via unsupported assertions.

Which makes attempts to push it on anyone else odious.

[MisterD]

Because it's entirely fabricated and indefensible, and can only be argued for via unsupported assertions.

Which makes attempts to push it on anyone else odious.

...or alternatively, because a smack in the chops often offends.:bash:

[Radar]

Go to this website (http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/), print a few pages and read them aloud when bible thumpers come to your door. :bleh:

[kickingzebra]

Because it's entirely fabricated and indefensible, and can only be argued for via unsupported assertions.

Which makes attempts to push it on anyone else odious.

And by pushing this viewpoint of yours onto me, what exactly are you doing?
As your view reflects your quote every bit as well as mine.

[Headbanger]

And by pushing this viewpoint of yours onto me, what exactly are you doing?
As your view reflects your quote every bit as well as mine.

Indulging in an online discussion is more then a little removed then some deluded twat knocking on your door with the "truth", Or group of twats trying to pass judgement on people for going about their own business.

But then You all have your invisible friend to give you strength and your god given mission to save the sinners from themselves....

[kickingzebra]

This doesn't apply to evolution as it is not heading to a final result and there is no inherent purpose. It simply points in a direction, it has no end and no correct or incorrrect path.


So your argument fails.

And yet the underlying assumption remains un-addressed, evolution is still approached as the fact of the matter, I can handle it being used as an explanation, but it does not stand scrutiny to call it the only explanation, and then base more conclusions for the new fact, based on an errant, or at best unproved foundational argument...

Building a logical house of cards, sure, it might look impressive, sound convincing, and genuinely work in some scenarios, but the foundational argument is inexorably linked with all of the following arguments, yet if it is not truthful, the house of cards falls in the wind.

[kickingzebra]

Indulging in an online discussion is more then a little removed then some deluded twat knocking on your door with the "truth", Or group of twats trying to pass judgement on people for going about their own business.

But then You all have your invisible friend to give you strength and your god given mission to save the sinners from themselves....

So essentially, what you are saying is it is fine for you, but not alright for me, because my fundamental assertion that God is real, is flawed, in your (humble) opine, but whatever you feel the need to do is fine by you?
When, BTW, have I ever knocked on your door?

One school of thought would say that All of Creation testifies to the glory of God, and against all of creation, what can I say that would be of use?
The same school of thought calls the preaching of the gospel foolishness.

For the sake of an analogy, who here is involved in kiwisaver?

[BigG]

You dont find God. He finds You, Saul on his way to Damascus, check it out.

[jrandom]

And by pushing this viewpoint of yours onto me, what exactly are you doing?

I'm not pushing my viewpoint onto you. Do you see me trying to convince you that your God does not exist?

You're welcome to live by the commands of YHVH (as written down by a multitude of grumpy Middle-Eastern men with beards) if you wish. Or, for that matter, engage in regular worship of the Great Green Arkleseizure or the Flying Spaghetti Monster (may you be Touched by His Noodly Appendage).

As I said, I shall only offer argument if you attempt to convince me that any of the above constitutes anything other than a private fantasy which you find it rewarding to indulge in.

Should you be happy to quietly and peacefully live by whatever tenets you prefer, I'll be very happy to do the same, and we can privately maintain whatever opinion we like of each other's mental capacity.

:niceone:

[Big Dave]

No win argument - Spanish Inquisition (nobody expects one) were on track - torture the poor Indian till the moment he 'accepts Jesus' - then kill him instantly because he was saved.

[NOMIS]

But then You all have your invisible friend to give you strength and your god given mission to save the sinners from themselves....

Invisible?? do you really think Christians walk around in there own dilusional world?
I mean come on i cant be I se him every where i go.

[Headbanger]

So essentially, what you are saying is it is fine for you, but not alright for me, because my fundamental assertion that God is real, is flawed, in your (humble) opine, but whatever you feel the need to do is fine by you?
When, BTW, have I ever knocked on your door?



Essentially what I'm saying is we are all taking the time to indulge in a conversation.

Your welcome to knock on my door

[Headbanger]

Invisible?? do you really think Christians walk around in there own delusional world?
.

Yep, You nailed it.

And you condemn everyone who doesn't share your vision to an eternity of hellfire. Pretty arrogant system you guys have got going.

[Big Dave]

Yep, You nailed it.

And you condemn everyone who doesn't share your vision to an eternity of hellfire. Pretty arrogant system you guys have got going.

The eternal head job if you follow the rules has merit though.

[kickingzebra]

Yep, You nailed it.

And you condemn everyone who doesn't share your vision to an eternity of hellfire. Pretty arrogant system you guys have got going.


Out here in the fields
I fight for my meals
I get my back into my living
I don't need to fight
To prove I'm right
I don't need to be forgiven



Why doesn't the figure in the song need to be forgiven?

[Mikkel]

Yeah yeah, civilized society is a great idea, why doesn't someone start one?

You live in one - but like everything else it isn't perfect. In fact organised religion helped to get us as far as we are today in that regard. As did slavery, feudalism and the absolute monarchy.

However, while slavery, feudalism and absolute mornarchy have been, almost, abolished - religion lives on. Organised religion is moral slavery and a very efficient tool for controling the mob. As such it has no place in this day and age where we hail freedom as the main virtue. Or would you deny this?


If evolution is so bloody good, explain to me PLEASE the death mechanism? Surely constant improvement would erode this?
Explain why Good old Dolly the Sheep (the clone) version had pre aged at maturity, by roughly the same period of time that the clonee had spent on the planet prior conception?

This ticking time bomb of death surely cannot benefit evolutions senseless march toward perfection?

You are kidding right!?!

I mean seriously WTF - if you are serious then the above statement clearly demonstrates why the seperation of religion, politics and science is imperative.

If anything, a short lifespan is beneficial as far as evolution is concerned - you'll have more life-cycles and thus more opportunities to weed out the weaker genes inside the same timespan. Consider insects, the most succesful family (terminology?) in the animal kingdom, which have a lifespan of less than a year.

Consider evolution the science of nature - most of the time it's steady improvements generation after generation, and then sometimes you have leaps and bounds (e.g. leaving the oceans, learning to fly, walk upright, etc).
There's nothing magical (in the meaning fantastic, unreal or divine) about it. However, just because our theory of evolution doesn't explain everything adequately that doesn't mean that evolution itself is incapable of such things - it only means that our theory is not yet complete (and I can't think of any all-encompasing scientific theory that is complete btw). Thermodynamics however is probably the most solid of all the theories - and I am not familiar with any failings on it's part.

[Headbanger]

Why doesn't the figure in the song need to be forgiven?

To get that information you would need to speak to the song author.

If your just want to know the way I see the lyric, The character is just stating they are putting in the hard work to live in a harsh world and are not interested in anybody else judgements of who they are.

They don't seek your forgiveness, don't try and say they should. Its about standing on your own two feet, Mentally as well as anything.

But that maybe miles away from what was originally intended.

[Finn]

My buddy George sums this subject up very well. Worth the 10 min break.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

P.S. Helen Clark is a goner. Woohoo.

[kickingzebra]

However, while slavery, feudalism and absolute mornarchy have been, almost, abolished - religion lives on. Organised religion is moral slavery and a very efficient tool for controling the mob. As such it has no place in this day and age where we hail freedom as the main virtue. Or would you deny this?

A tool for controlling the mob for those unscrupulous enough, but unscrupulous people didn't always need a reason such as religion to do this.
Slavery was abolished, by whom? those who were serious about thier position before God, John Newtons, Abraham Lincolns etc, what was good enough is good enough no longer, so a change must be wrought!

Moral slavery? That is interesting in itself, one of the primary reasons any of the great civilisations of ages past has fallen, is moral decay, someone took the time and effort to create great order in everyday life, the great order meant less time taken with the mundaneness of everyday life and work, and more time to sit, ponder, and generally move towards debauchery.
Moral standards are the ONLY foundation to a great civilisation that cannot be successfully removed. If absolute freedom is the goal, disorder and chaos is the end result.

Think of the wannabe gangbangers of this country, does there not seem to be something better for them to be doing than molesting the streets with their presence? Absolutely, but do they do anything better?

Occassionally a few will rise above the moral repugnancy they have espoused to date, and make an effort to better themselves.

How do they do this?

Generally they lift the value of thier fellow human being, from utter worthlessness in the eyes of the beholder, to something of value, they see crime, and lack of work ethic/motivation as an enemy, and so with great effort, they bring themselves above the old level, and reintegrate with society, as generally productive members.

By giving up thier old Freedoms, do disregard the law, to terrorise, and cause harm, they achieve a greater level of humanity.

Absolute freedom, while achieveable, is certainly not sustainable, so by casting off the last of the chains which bind civilisation to "religion" (I would prefer the use of the word God) We do not lift the level, we lower it.

Morals do not matter anymore, if there isn't an absolute authority, and so we can do what we like (which we can now anyway) but without consequence.

How will this be good for humanity?




Thermodynamics however is probably the most solid of all the theories - and I am not familiar with any failings on it's part.
Order to disorder, the loss of organization, the shift of energy into uniform levels...

[Headbanger]

How will this be good for humanity?


Humanity is due for a massive die-back, Its how nature corrects itself.

Unavoidable within the next 150 years....well, Unless God intervenes, But I can't see that happening.

[kickingzebra]

To get that information you would need to speak to the song author.

If your just want to know the way I see the lyric, The character is just stating they are putting in the hard work to live in a harsh world and are not interested in anybody else judgements of who they are.

They don't seek your forgiveness, don't try and say they should. Its about standing on your own two feet, Mentally as well as anything.

But that maybe miles away from what was originally intended.

I appreciate your reply there.

I wouldn't ask for, nor accept their forgiveness, Why would there be any need for forgiveness without wrong doing against me personally?

What is wrong without right? If nothing is wrong, then nothing can be right, making forgiveness a null and void point. It could be watered down so that we are all just trying to do the most beneficial thing, regarding right and wrong, but that is senseless as evolutionarily, there is no reason to do just that. No1 wins by looking out for him/herself better than anyone else.

My suggestion though is that we, like aforementioned Stalin, have a major beef with God, a God who, if non existant, would certainly verify our own insanity, as the sane mans approach would be to ignore that which is not there. It would not deserve any attention, and yet here we all are on this thread? Why? To convince ourselves that God is no longer the Judge of Man and his actions, to convince ourselves as in Nietzsche's parables, that God is dead?

Then why the actions in railing against this non existant entity, unless somewhere in the depths of us, we have a knowledge that we may just be called to account, and the price to pay to "make the grade" is giving up some mispercieved moral freedoms?

[FROSTY]

Gosh darn it. Seems to me that the televangelists have taken the words in the bible and have enterpreted them to suit the particular message they are trying to put across.
What sucks about that is that generally the message itself aint bad.--Be good to ya wife,love your kids all really good stuff but credibility of the message goes out the window when the bible is misquoted.
My opinion mind you

[Headbanger]

I appreciate your reply there.

I wouldn't ask for, nor accept their forgiveness, Why would there be any need for forgiveness without wrong doing against me personally?


Then he probably wasn't talking to you.....lol. Maybe he was talking to god. There is no indication in the song as to the characters religious beliefs.

[Mikkel]

A tool for controlling the mob for those unscrupulous enough, but unscrupulous people didn't always need a reason such as religion to do this.
Slavery was abolished, by whom? those who were serious about thier position before God, John Newtons, Abraham Lincolns etc, what was good enough is good enough no longer, so a change must be wrought!

Moral slavery? That is interesting in itself, one of the primary reasons any of the great civilisations of ages past has fallen, is moral decay, someone took the time and effort to create great order in everyday life, the great order meant less time taken with the mundaneness of everyday life and work, and more time to sit, ponder, and generally move towards debauchery.
Moral standards are the ONLY foundation to a great civilisation that cannot be successfully removed. If absolute freedom is the goal, disorder and chaos is the end result.

Think of the wannabe gangbangers of this country, does there not seem to be something better for them to be doing than molesting the streets with their presence? Absolutely, but do they do anything better?

Occassionally a few will rise above the moral repugnancy they have espoused to date, and make an effort to better themselves.

How do they do this?

Generally they lift the value of thier fellow human being, from utter worthlessness in the eyes of the beholder, to something of value, they see crime, and lack of work ethic/motivation as an enemy, and so with great effort, they bring themselves above the old level, and reintegrate with society, as generally productive members.

By giving up thier old Freedoms, do disregard the law, to terrorise, and cause harm, they achieve a greater level of humanity.

Absolute freedom, while achieveable, is certainly not sustainable, so by casting off the last of the chains which bind civilisation to "religion" (I would prefer the use of the word God) We do not lift the level, we lower it.

Morals do not matter anymore, if there isn't an absolute authority, and so we can do what we like (which we can now anyway) but without consequence.

How will this be good for humanity?

I've never said that there haven't been good and great religious men throughout history. Religion if nothing else does impart a tendency towards humility while inciting a sense of purpose. Both of which are all good - if you want a functional society it is good that the individual put the individual needs second to the needs of the collective. However, could we achieve this situation without the threat of divine retribution, the great lie of god and the moral slavery of organised religion? I don't know, but I would hope so.

I disagree with you, absolute freedom does not imply an absence of morals. However, if the existing morals have been imparted by an institution which is opposed to this such freedom - then there will necessarily be a rebellion against that institution and all of it's values. If some of those values are good then such a rebellion will to a degree constitute a degradation of moral values. Which is exactly why religion as a controlling mechanism is particularly dangerous.

As for your "wannabe gangbangers" - the issue here is not religion. Fact is that society grows soft as it grows rich - as it grows soft you get more and more socialistic wishy-washy bullshit and political correctness. Both are poisons to a society.


Order to disorder, the loss of organization, the shift of energy into uniform levels...

Indeed, the ever increasing entropy is not something which is easy to come to terms with. How's that for creating a perfect world?

[Mikkel]

I wouldn't ask for, nor accept their forgiveness, Why would there be any need for forgiveness without wrong doing against me personally?

"I don't need to be forgiven" how does that imply forgiveness of YOU?


Then he probably wasn't talking to you.....lol. Maybe he was talking to god. There is no indication in the song as to the characters religious beliefs.

Or... he doesn't believe in right and wrong. God is an abstraction that holds no value or significance in his life. Thus, no matter what he might ever do, he won't need to be forgiven. (Maybe he'd need to forgive himself, but that is another matter.)

True morality belongs in the department of internal affairs as far as I am concerned. Forgiving yourself - truly, not just pretending - for what wrong doings you may feel you have commited is much more difficult than being forgiven by a priest on behalf of some divine abstraction.

Needing to have someone else say "Everything is alright - you are forgiven" suggests a lack of morals to me, an unwillingness to relate to yourself and your actions. An easy way out - a reluctance to embrace your own existance and figuring out what works for you, personally.

[kickingzebra]

I've never said that there haven't been good and great religious men throughout history. Religion if nothing else does impart a tendency towards humility while inciting a sense of purpose. Both of which are all good - if you want a functional society it is good that the individual put the individual needs second to the needs of the collective. However, could we achieve this situation without the threat of divine retribution, the great lie of god and the moral slavery of organised religion? I don't know, but I would hope so.

I disagree with you, absolute freedom does not imply an absence of morals. However, if the existing morals have been imparted by an institution which is opposed to this such freedom - then there will necessarily be a rebellion against that institution and all of it's values. If some of those values are good then such a rebellion will to a degree constitute a degradation of moral values. Which is exactly why religion as a controlling mechanism is particularly dangerous.

As for your "wannabe gangbangers" - the issue here is not religion. Fact is that society grows soft as it grows rich - as it grows soft you get more and more socialistic wishy-washy bullshit and political correctness. Both are poisons to a society.



Indeed, the ever increasing entropy is not something which is easy to come to terms with. How's that for creating a perfect world?

The issue is still morals, and why would these be imparted by any mechanism other than a creator?

A guy who was named Adolph took his (broken) moral compass, and changed the world. Fact is they were strong, technically superior, and unencumbered by having to do the right thing. The reason he didn't ultimately succeed? People with Good Moral compasses (eventually) decided they could sit back no more, and action had to be taken.

However, if anyone follows Nietzsches' postulations, Adolph took the only course of action open to him. Was it logically defensible? Yes, because of his initial incorrect assumption, that Nietzsche was right, God was Dead, and survival of the fittest/strongest was the mandate.

Arguably, the other parties to said war were simply protecting their own interests, however, why then spend so much time, effort and money, to rebuild the devastated economies, lives and countries, and also why take the time to bring those responsible to justice?

It is an old analogy, but a good one, All those operating under Hitlers regime were operating well within the law of the land, but Moral law must transcend civil law, and in the case's presented, Why should it?

[Mikkel]

The issue is still morals, and why would these be imparted by any mechanism other than a creator?

A guy who was named Adolph took his (broken) moral compass, and changed the world. Fact is they were strong, technically superior, and unencumbered by having to do the right thing. The reason he didn't ultimately succeed? People with Good Moral compasses (eventually) decided they could sit back no more, and action had to be taken.

However, if anyone follows Nietzsches' postulations, Adolph took the only course of action open to him. Was it logically defensible? Yes, because of his initial incorrect assumption, that Nietzsche was right, God was Dead, and survival of the fittest/strongest was the mandate.

Arguably, the other parties to said war were simply protecting their own interests, however, why then spend so much time, effort and money, to rebuild the devastated economies, lives and countries, and also why take the time to bring those responsible to justice?

It is an old analogy, but a good one, All those operating under Hitlers regime were operating well within the law of the land, but Moral law must transcend civil law, and in the case's presented, Why should it?

I am mostly disturbed by the fact that from the way you write it, it would seem that the Nazis had been right if they had indeed won the war.

The reason other countries entered the war had nothing to do with morals - it wasn't because of the fact that people in their millions were being systematically exterminated - it had everything to do with survival and protection of national sovreignity.

America - Pearl Harbour was attacked.
Soviet - operation Barbarossa encroached upon their national territory.

Who else (of significance) wasn't involved the second the germans started their invasion of France?

And the reason Hitler didn't succeed was because he became drunk with his own power and took on more than he could manage (the eastern front). Had he taken mainland Europe, consolidated his power, then England and finally the Soviet things would most likely have been very much different today.

Neitzsche was right - he didn't suggest that no morals was the way to go. He just stated that the reign of god, as it had been, was over. It would be impossible to achieve the same level of authority, for an organised religion in the western world, as what had been previously held by the catholic church.

The persecution and extermination of the Jews, Romas and Slavs was founded in a "religious" belief regarding right and wrong. There was no facts that supported this course of action - just a firm belief, supported by massive propaganda, that it was RIGHT! This propaganda incidentially helped unite the people to a common cause - but the extermination had not been necessary.
Also most people in germany would have had no cerrtain knowledge of what actually was going on - and they didn't have any reason, or even way, to question and investigate such matters.

While moral law transcends civil law - moral law is very much subjective to what culture you have been raised in. It is not a god-given absolute as you are suggesting.

You ask what, if not god-given morality, caused the Nuremberg trials to be conducted. Evolved morality perhaps... All it takes is for the few good men to do nothing - the Nuremberg Trials punished those good* men who actively commited crimes against humanity and also those who did nothing. E.g. Albert Speer got 20 years in prison.

*good in this case meaning capable or having potential - and there were plenty of those in nazi germany.

Also "it is not the strongest specimen that survives, but the one most responsive to change."

[kickingzebra]

poland was happening for only a couple of years before france...

While moral law transcends civil law - moral law is very much subjective to what culture you have been raised in.

Were that to be true, then moral imperatives, or even suggestions would be ultimately useless, the outworkings may be slightly different in different cultures, but the principles remain the same across all humanity. When people have been wronged, they call for justice.

[Headbanger]

Stand back, for my next amazing feat I'm about to raise too very excellent boys known as my sons to be moral and good people without any fairy tales about invisible gods that will strike them down or threats of eternal suffering.

[MisterD]

While moral law transcends civil law - moral law is very much subjective to what culture you have been raised in.

Bzzt. Wrong answer.

I'm sure that the various mad muslims that murdered their sisters/cousins/daughters for reasons of "honour" believed that their moral law transcended civil law. They were wrong too.

[kickingzebra]

Bzzt. Wrong answer.

I'm sure that the various mad muslims that murdered their sisters/cousins/daughters for reasons of "honour" believed that their moral law transcended civil law. They were wrong too.

Un nested quote, sorry to burst your bubble,

wouldn't want to set the athiests to arguing amongst each other, christians have a trademark on that.

[kickingzebra]

Stand back, for my next amazing feat I'm about to raise too very excellent boys known as my sons to be moral and good people without any fairy tales about invisible gods that will strike them down or threats of eternal suffering.

will it bother you if they find God for themselves?

[Headbanger]

will it bother you if they find God for themselves?

Not at all, Its their role in life to follow their own path.

They won't get far if they try and convert me to the cause though.

well....stranger things have happened....:eek5:

Anyway, Its probably in their blood, we come from a long line of preachers, pastors, missionaries. Our family is entwined deeply with the church as far back as anyone has traced it (all the way back to Austria), and untill WW2 all male members were pushed into some form of church service.

[Murray]

May the Force be with you all!!!!

[Mikkel]

poland was happening for only a couple of years before france...

However, Poland didn't have an alliance with England et Al.


Bzzt. Wrong answer.

I'm sure that the various mad muslims that murdered their sisters/cousins/daughters for reasons of "honour" believed that their moral law transcended civil law. They were wrong too.

Mate, if you're going to quote me - please put my name on it and read it first. Cheers :p

But you are correct if you intended to quote the text I quoted in the post that you actually quoted... If you know what I mean. :D

But to be fair - kickingzebra should have made it clear he was quoting me in the first place. :yes:


wouldn't want to set the athiests to arguing amongst each other, christians have a trademark on that.

And don't come tell me who I can argue with... Thanks. :p Just because you have invented something doesn't mean you aquired the patent.

[kickingzebra]

Not at all, Its their role in life to follow their own path.

They won't get far if they try and convert me to the cause though.

well....stranger things have happened....:eek5:

Doesn't always work out how anyone wants, my bro and I had the same upbringing, yet are close to polar opposites, he isn't a christian, but the older he gets, the less intent on self destruction he becomes, is actually quite a good bugger now that he is 10 years past the 20 year mark...
I don't know if he will ever become a professing christian or not, but he will sure as eggs have to think it through, and re think it through every so often!


However, Poland didn't have an alliance with England et Al.



Mate, if you're going to quote me - please put my name on it and read it first. Cheers :p

But you are correct if you intended to quote the text I quoted in the post that you actually quoted... If you know what I mean. :D

But to be fair - kickingzebra should have made it clear he was quoting me in the first place. :yes:



And don't come tell me who I can argue with... Thanks. :p Just because you have invented something doesn't mean you aquired the patent.
Royalties invoice to follow, its all there in the bible mate, check the small print!!

Bzzt. Wrong answer.

I'm sure that the various mad muslims that murdered their sisters/cousins/daughters for reasons of "honour" believed that their moral law transcended civil law. They were wrong too.

Something about read first shoot later comes to mind, LOL, I ama shocker at it too though!