Best N.Z Racetrack

[puddytat]

O.k you lot,what track do you most enjoy racing on? Pukie,Taupo,Manfield,Ruapuna,Levels or Teretonga ?

Id make it a poll, but me is a bit dumb eh. If someone wants to though, go for it...
A few reasons would be good....

This has probably been done before so sorry if it has.

[justsomeguy]

Only done Taupo and Puke.

Taupo is a proper track - not much right turns though...

Puke is a bit of a mongrel but has it's own charm as you can go weally weally fassssssssssssssst and enter corners at 200+. Not many left turns though...

Pretty sure someone posted a thread like this before... but whocares....:Playnice:

[mark247]

Kaimais is the best :whistle:

[sinfull]

Only dont manfield and taupo and out of them two taupo wins it

[k14]

Teretonga all the way. High speed, bit of everything. Real nack to getting a good lap in. Only problem is its location...

As for worst track, taupo by a country mile. Second is Puke but only because of the armco too close to the track, if it had decent run off it would be second best.

[justsomeguy]

Also Taupo's beautiful with the mountain in the background and the grass everywhere. So even from a scenic perspective it's a nicer place to be for spectators, etc.

Here's an old pic from my 250 days...

[Joni]

Similar discussion here (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=56136)

:sunny:

[malcy25]

Taupo's too bitty. Real racing happens on fast circuits. Fast corners really separate the men from the boys.

[kickingzebra]

ruapuna has more turns, and is still wicky fast, and they got the dipper!!

[Nonbeliever]

ruapuna has more turns, and is still wicky fast, and they got the dipper!!

The dipper!!?? woo fuckin hoo!! give me a break.

Ride the corkscrew at Laguna then tell me how great the dipper is.

[kickingzebra]

The dipper!!?? woo fuckin hoo!! give me a break.

Ride the corkscrew at Laguna then tell me how great the dipper is.

Sorry old man, you must have left your reading glasses in the refrigerator again, title of the thread says NZ race tracks...

Although, when the opportunity presents itself, I shall be sure to take up your good suggestion.

[Moss 16]

Teretonga all the way. High speed, bit of everything. Real nack to getting a good lap in. Only problem is its location...
.

I agree completely although the location isn’t that bad, you can almost get it whenever you want and it has no noise restrictions (race till the sun goes down).

Levels is a close second (nice and technical) with Ruapuna 3rd (has some funny corners like the right hander before the infield sweeper) Manfield 4th (its still a camel track) and Puke 5th (That arm-co and the massive bumps in the front straight/1st corner that try to throw you off the bike).
Iv never ridden taupo because it’s not a nationals track.

[puddytat]

The dipper!!?? woo fuckin hoo!! give me a break.

Ride the corkscrew at Laguna then tell me how great the dipper is.

You must be a yank right,or been living there to long & caught the "we're better than everyone" syndrome...:yawn:

[Kickaha]

Real racing happens on fast circuits. Fast corners really separate the men from the boys.

Most guys who can't handle techincal tracks say that :bleh:

[Nonbeliever]

You must be a yank right,or been living there to long & caught the "we're better than everyone" syndrome...:yawn:

Not true, Im NZer living overseas for 11months of the year.

Just apoint though, you shouldve made this poll only open to people that have ridden all the tracks in the poll,that way you'll get a less bias opinion from people who don't know what theyre talking about. I didnt vote because I haven't ridden all the tracks in the poll. Ive ridden 4 of them though.

[Mikkel]

Well, considering this poll is placed in the Racing section of the Competition Riding forum there's a good chance that a significant proportion of the people coming through will have tried at least more than one of the tracks in the poll.

I shall not vote since I don't know most of the tracks.

However, I can only say I've found Ruapuna plenty of fun. And yeah the right-hander just after the hairpin is a tricky beast indeed. The right-hander after the sweeper takes balls - you can go much faster through it than you think initially. (these are my observations as a novice rider mind)

Alas, I never got many laps in when I visited Levels so I haven't got anything to compare it with.

[svr]

1. Teretonga - old school with no infield (don't build them like that anymore) Horrendus weather, of course.
2. Puke - Ditto - if you forget safety, serious fun. Otherwise the worst track
3. New Taupo - Fun like the old circuit but with a couple of 5th gear cnrs
4. Levels - Riders track (all corners)
5. New Ruapuna - ridden but havent raced it but seems fun enough
6. Manfield - stop-go track where power is king, nice infield though.

We are lucky - 6 decent tracks pretty close togethor. We just need one international quality track - Hampton Downs? The layout looks like another `fun' track - pity its not a Phillip Island type track tho aye?...

[malcy25]

Most guys who can't handle techincal tracks say that :bleh:

Technical smechnical. Best you get back on your bucket racer! :2guns: technical tracks are favoured by people who can't handle real corners!!!!!!!!

Anyone can ride a 50km/h corner at +/- a couple of km/h. BUT slow corners are also bloody good places to get hurt in poxy accidents being T boned by idiots on the way in, highsiding etc on the way out - the accidents are usually up high and down hard.

But it takes real commitment to ride a 200km/h corner at 200km/h. The Speed variation at apex on a big corner is huge between average , middling and good riders (could 40km/h from top to bottom). That boys and girls is what separates the good from the not so good. It's also harder to fall off on fast corners as it is harder to overload available traction...

You look at any GP that has been classed as a real close race with multiple racers in the hunt, in the last billion years (well maybe 50) and they are all at open fast circuits like Mugello, Phillip Island etc. Tight naggery circuits break the flow of the racing and just separates out the racing. Languna this year was a classic case, where was 3rd?

Most of the GP racers after their "home round" (for emotional reasons) will rate a fast flowing circuit with big corners. The bulk of them don't seen to fancy places like Sachenring.

Even the legendary Kennry Roberts says go fast on fast corners, go slow on slow corners.

Bring on big hairy fast tracks I say. I'd rather get smoked but have my knee on the deck for 100m in 4th gear all over the place, than be 2 sec off the pace around some walking pace successive 1st gear corners at some "technical" track..

Having riden at Puke (full and club circuit), Bay Park, Ruapuna, Manfield, Mallory Park (UK), Wanganui, Paeroa, Whangarei, Taupo (old and new), Phillip Island (some 21 days of activity there) and been to places like the old one time Manukau street circuit, Auckland Street Circuit (late 80's) and Donnington, I know which circuits and corners got me and most of the guys I was racing with barred up for.

You didn't hear much how they enjoyed "the hairpin at such and such circuit!" But you did hear how they were tucked in hard in 4th or 5th gear in a freight train around some big corner and you can see the excitement in their eyes as they were making ground on the guy in front...

Puke has it's run off issues but for a NZ circuit, it still gets my vote over places like Taupo everytime.

[jrandom]

Most guys who can't handle techincal tracks say that :bleh:

I was going to make the same point.

High-speed corners are easier, IMHO. You're moving at a greater velocity, but the changes of bike attitude and acceleration happen more ponderously, so you get more time to think about it and there's less to actually do in a given space of time.

Slow corners need a lot of finesse to brake hard and get the bike from side to side quickly. Lots more going on each second, lots more changing of inputs and shifting of weight around.

Seems to me slow corners would be the place where seconds really get won and lost. The rest is just balls and horsepower.

Then again, what would I know.

[FROSTY]

My favorite would be Taupo -its got all the ingredients to be a challenging track.
Elevation changes -camber changes, deceptive corners.
But it still is the lil track that could --or should.

To me my Fave in NZ is ruapuna.
Being basicly completely flat its great for spectators.
On the whole its "safe" cept maybe the armco coming out onto the back straight is a bit close.
Theres just so many types of corner in one track.
If only it had elevation changes over the back it would be all but perfect.

[Skunk]

I'd rather get smoked but have my knee on the deck for 100m in 4th gear all over the place, than be 2 sec off the pace around some walking pace successive 1st gear corners at some "technical" track.Oh. Sorry. You're an "I got my knee down!" racer who can't get slow corners right at a decent pace... OK. :lol: p/t

Fast tracks are for 'throttle twisters' not riders. Riders can do technical tracks - and who said technical is only slow?

I'd rate the new section of Taupo as the best I've ridden. But then I've only done Puke (even the old hairpin!), Taupo (old, new and complete), Manfield (long and short) and Ruapuna (B track).

[scrivy]

Most guys who can't handle techincal tracks say that :bleh:

Is there a technical track in NZ??? :sleep:

[sidecar bob]

From a sidecar passenger point of view, Which is sure to be different from a solo riders, Ruapuna just cant be beaten.
You have the flat out turn one, that seriously tests your faith in damn near fuckin everything, to the awesome eses up the infield, the big left hand wheel up drift that takes you to the entry of the dipper, the seriously intense right to left swing exiting the dipper while going up hill that feels like its going to throw you off the back, & another hard out wheel up drift onto the front straight.
Compare that to Puke. :yawn::zzzz:

[scrivy]

um... which sidecar was that done on......???? :bleh::laugh:

[Shaun]

TIMARU- By far the most technical track in the country, the people who think out side the square, can go a lot faster then the ones who cannot

[Joni]

TIMARU- By far the most technical track in the country, the people who think out side the square, can go a lot faster then the ones who cannotVery respectable post coming form a man who traditionaly rides "the bigger bikes". You can't point and squirt at Levels.

Nice one Mr Harris! :clap:

[slowpoke]

Technical smechnical. Best you get back on your bucket racer! :2guns: technical tracks are favoured by people who can't handle real corners!!!!!!!!

Anyone can ride a 50km/h corner at +/- a couple of km/h. BUT slow corners are also bloody good places to get hurt in poxy accidents being T boned by idiots on the way in, highsiding etc on the way out - the accidents are usually up high and down hard.

But it takes real commitment to ride a 200km/h corner at 200km/h. The Speed variation at apex on a big corner is huge between average , middling and good riders (could 40km/h from top to bottom). That boys and girls is what separates the good from the not so good. It's also harder to fall off on fast corners as it is harder to overload available traction...

You look at any GP that has been classed as a real close race with multiple racers in the hunt, in the last billion years (well maybe 50) and they are all at open fast circuits like Mugello, Phillip Island etc. Tight naggery circuits break the flow of the racing and just separates out the racing. Languna this year was a classic case, where was 3rd?

Most of the GP racers after their "home round" (for emotional reasons) will rate a fast flowing circuit with big corners. The bulk of them don't seen to fancy places like Sachenring.

Even the legendary Kennry Roberts says go fast on fast corners, go slow on slow corners.

Bring on big hairy fast tracks I say. I'd rather get smoked but have my knee on the deck for 100m in 4th gear all over the place, than be 2 sec off the pace around some walking pace successive 1st gear corners at some "technical" track..

Having riden at Puke (full and club circuit), Bay Park, Ruapuna, Manfield, Mallory Park (UK), Wanganui, Paeroa, Whangarei, Taupo (old and new), Phillip Island (some 21 days of activity there) and been to places like the old one time Manukau street circuit, Auckland Street Circuit (late 80's) and Donnington, I know which circuits and corners got me and most of the guys I was racing with barred up for.

You didn't hear much how they enjoyed "the hairpin at such and such circuit!" But you did hear how they were tucked in hard in 4th or 5th gear in a freight train around some big corner and you can see the excitement in their eyes as they were making ground on the guy in front...


Totally agree. I know I can go around a slow corner behind Stroud or equivalent and he'll still be in sight at the end of it. I wouldn't have a hope in hell of achieving the same thing on a high speed sweeper. Quite a few racers are able to find the edge at 100kph but very few can do the same at 200kph plus.



High-speed corners are easier, IMHO. You're moving at a greater velocity, but the changes of bike attitude and acceleration happen more ponderously, so you get more time to think about it and there's less to actually do in a given space of time.

Slow corners need a lot of finesse to brake hard and get the bike from side to side quickly. Lots more going on each second, lots more changing of inputs and shifting of weight around.

Seems to me slow corners would be the place where seconds really get won and lost. The rest is just balls and horsepower.


High speed corners are easy to ride slowly, but extremely difficult to ride at the limit. High speed corners also allow for bikes with less horsepower to excel as less acceleration is involved. It's the slow stop/start tracks that are dominated by horsepower.
"Just balls"? Isn't that what bike racing is all about? (not that I've got any)


My favorite would be Taupo -its got all the ingredients to be a challenging track.
Elevation changes -camber changes, deceptive corners.
But it still is the lil track that could --or should.


Elevation changes? If measured in inches maybe....
The infield is one line, 1 gear for most of it. When running the short new configuration you only need two gears on a big bike for the whole damn thing. They have tried to fit too many corners into too small a place and ended up with a mickey mouse go kart track.

I didn't vote as I've only raced a couple of NZ tracks but I can't wait to get down South and try 'em out. Here's hoping it's sooner rather than later.

Whatever you like, a lousy track is way better than no track.

[jrandom]

Totally agree. I know I can go around a slow corner behind Stroud or equivalent and he'll still be in sight at the end of it.

I'd respectfully submit that that'd be because the solid second or so he just put into you doesn't equate to much actual track distance. You won't notice it with the Mk I eyeball until the speeds get back up.

Feels like more in a sweeper because it puts the faster guy further away, but the actual gap created might be the same or smaller.

[Kickaha]

Puke has it's run off issues but for a NZ circuit, it still gets my vote over places like Taupo everytime.

Puke = :yawn: :sleep:


From a sidecar passenger point of view, Which is sure to be different from a solo riders, Ruapuna just cant be beaten.
You have the flat out turn one, that seriously tests your faith in damn near fuckin everything, to the awesome eses up the infield, the big left hand wheel up drift that takes you to the entry of the dipper, the seriously intense right to left swing exiting the dipper while going up hill that feels like its going to throw you off the back, & another hard out wheel up drift onto the front straight.
Compare that to Puke. :yawn::zzzz:

Yeah I'd rate that as the best sidecar track, although I do like Levels even though it's a lot harder work, and Turn 1 at Teretonga is one of the most awesome corners :banana: shame about the rest of it


um... which sidecar was that done on......???? :bleh::laugh:

A slow short yellow one:dodge:

[scrivy]

You can't point and squirt at Levels.


er... If you ask Sidecar Bob, I think he'd say the opposite........:bleh::niceone:

[racer40]

Levels & Taupo are cool tracks, lots of corners, Puke to dangerous, but i like the fast turn 1. All tracks have there fors & againsts

[malcy25]

Oh. Sorry. You're an "I got my knee down!" racer who can't get slow corners right at a decent pace... OK. :lol: p/t

Fast tracks are for 'throttle twisters' not riders. Riders can do technical tracks - and who said technical is only slow?

I'd rate the new section of Taupo as the best I've ridden. But then I've only done Puke (even the old hairpin!), Taupo (old, new and complete), Manfield (long and short) and Ruapuna (B track).

Oh dear.....lots to learn still I see:baby:

Sorry, I must have missed the sign which says this forum is only for slow riders who only like slow corners and can't get their knee down!

A little tip - throttle twist racing is a thing called drag racing, but lets not confuse things right now as we have lots to learn still.

I did have a long diatribe formed, but then I remembered an old line - Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Now onto Jrandoms....

I'd respectfully submit that that'd be because the solid second or so he just put into you doesn't equate to much actual track distance. You won't notice it with the Mk I eyeball until the speeds get back up.

Feels like more in a sweeper because it puts the faster guy further away, but the actual gap created might be the same or smaller.

Okay I 'm make this simple. and we'll start with some assumed numbers. They might not be truly accurate but will give the correct correlation anyway:
Slow corner average rider 50km/h (say Puke hairpin)
Fast Corner average rider 180km/h (say turn 1)
Time in each corner
Slow corner 2 sec
Fast corner 5 sec
Fast rider has a 10% speed advantage.

Any guesses on the metres gained by the fast rider?

Jrandom has said nothing...

Slow corner: Speed differential is approx 1.38metres a sec over 2 seconds = 2.7m gained
Fast Corner speed differential is approx 5.5metres a sec over 5 seconds = 27m gained...

So as we can see trying to go fast in slow corners is just a lot of effort with a high risk. Going fast in fast corners is where you REALLY make time. It's the going fast in fast corners is where the skill is because the corner entry sopeed and limits are so high.

Evening gents!:first:

[scrivy]

um,... er,.... well... What he said ++

[slowpoke]

um,... er,.... well... What he said ++

Haha, yessirree, I'm likin' the look of this new "kid".......

[Sketchy_Racer]

Wow a lot of professional and complete amature opinions in here.

I believe that ANY corner no matter fast or slow to ride that corner at it's optimum requires skill. Just different skills are required for different corners and speeds.

I believe that the faster a corner is, the easier it is to get to the ultimate level of traction a bike has to offer, and that is why lines and planning exits etc and looking at the bigger picture become more important in corners like that. On slower ones, when you reach the maximum traction avaliable, it tends to snap a lot quicker and violently.

I notice that a lot of the superbike riders and 600 riders complain about slow corners and getting drive down. After witnessing first hand on the track the level of throttle control some* of the riders have, it's asstounding how many DONT fall off. Don't get me wrong, they have extremly large amounts of talent to be racing at those sorts of paces, but in the slower corners it would seem the riders would benifit greatly with the use of a little more finesse with thier throttle hand.

I'm also of the opinion that quite a few riders don't like tracks like taupo new circuit infeild is because from turn one, each corner is linked to the next. Fail on one corner and it is very hard to get back on track for the remaining ones.

New taupo is a great layout, I have always struggled with seemingly inconsistent grip the surface offers though.

Obviously these are just my humble opinions formed on my limited knowledge and experience.


(*Some exclusions apply)

[jrandom]

Fast rider has a 10% speed advantage.

If the fast rider has a '10% speed advantage' (that's a percentage, not a fixed speed differential) then he'll gain the same amount of time on the slow rider for every second spent in every corner, regardless of whether the corner is slow or fast.

Obviously, if you spend 5 seconds negotiating a corner you'll gain more time on a slower-cornering rider than if you spent 2 seconds negotiating it. Whether the corner's fast or slow is beside the point.

The question is whether that relative speed advantage goes up or down in fast or slow corners.

Assuming the bikes are relatively equal, a second gained in a slow corner is just as good as a second gained in a fast one.

What I haven't seen anyone comment on yet is whether more seconds are gained in fast corners. Yes, of course more metres are gained; that was my point. But does that actually equate to more seconds off the lap time?

To be honest, I doubt that anyone will be able to answer that definitively. Every rider is different enough that there's probably no hard and fast rule, and the top guys are basically just fast everywhere.


Going fast in fast corners is where you REALLY make time.

Reading between the lines, you seem to be saying that this is because you spend more time in fast corners.

Except, well, that entirely depends on the track, dunnit?

[jrandom]

I believe that the faster a corner is, the easier it is to get to the ultimate level of traction a bike has to offer...

I'm sorry, did I hear right? That sounded like 'faster corners are easier' to me.

:laugh:

[Shaun]

I'm sorry, did I hear right? That sounded like 'faster corners are easier' to me.

:laugh:




I would AGREE with that:clap:

[slowpoke]

I believe that the faster a corner is, the easier it is to get to the ultimate level of traction a bike has to offer, and that is why lines and planning exits etc and looking at the bigger picture become more important in corners like that. On slower ones, when you reach the maximum traction avaliable, it tends to snap a lot quicker and violently.

I notice that a lot of the superbike riders and 600 riders complain about slow corners and getting drive down. After witnessing first hand on the track the level of throttle control some* of the riders have, it's asstounding how many DONT fall off. Don't get me wrong, they have extremly large amounts of talent to be racing at those sorts of paces, but in the slower corners it would seem the riders would benifit greatly with the use of a little more finesse with thier throttle hand.


The faster you are travelling the more gyroscopic effect there is from the wheels and the more inherently stable the bike becomes. With the increased gyroscopic effect the bike becomes more difficult to turn but it also becomes much harder to get the bike out of shape.
It's not just about throttle control but also about the change in handling characteristics relative to speed.
Whatever, it's been interesting hearing about the different tracks and checking out a few layouts on the web. It's got me checking calendars, checking my roster and planning to experience a few more before too long.

[roogazza]

Wow a lot of professional and complete amature opinions in here.


Obviously these are just my humble opinions formed on my limited knowledge and experience.


The first and last lines say it all ........... :thud:

ps. but getting back on topic my favourite was Levels. G.

[FROSTY]

Elevation changes? If measured in inches maybe....
The infield is one line, 1 gear for most of it. When running the short new configuration you only need two gears on a big bike for the whole damn thing. They have tried to fit too many corners into too small a place and ended up with a mickey mouse go kart track.
Er dude that was what I was saying :devil2:
Except for the elevation changes-Not bein a smartass but clearly you havent walked the track matey :Pokey:
The difference in elevation from the highest to lowest point in the track is 3.0m --I promise you --Ive walked round the place er once or twice
The dropoff from turn 1-4 is quite reasonable
That said--Again I agree with you--great for trackdays but it could have been so much better with maybee 3 less corners to open the track up

[slowpoke]

Er dude that was what I was saying :devil2:
Except for the elevation changes-Not bein a smartass but clearly you havent walked the track matey :Pokey:
The difference in elevation from the highest to lowest point in the track is 3.0m --I promise you --Ive walked round the place er once or twice
The dropoff from turn 1-4 is quite reasonable
That said--Again I agree with you--great for trackdays but it could have been so much better with maybee 3 less corners to open the track up

Yep, fair enough Frosty.
I was thinking more of Wanneroo/Barbagallo in WA where a simple circuit has been made much more interesting with large changes in elevation. I was talking to Tony Rees and he recounted coming off on the uphill left hand sweeper.
The elevation changes there make for some interesting contradictions with a change in direction as you crest the hill, then braking on the steep downhill section before turning sharply in The Basin with your suspension under compression and firing up over the hill again before swooping down the main straight and braking on the slope before the front straight etc. Good fun with maybe a 30m elevation change in places.

[FROSTY]

Yup --Im hoping that the great hope for NZ motorsport isn't the same as Taupo when its finalised.
Last year at ruapuna I was told that the local mining co was buying the land the tracks on.
I don't know if it was fact or fiction mind you but the story goes that they.were going to provide an alternatice venue in their old quarry so there would be plenty of decent height and angle changes.
Why I like ruapuna is that there is such a variety of corner types and speeds.

[puddytat]

Last year at ruapuna I was told that the local mining co was buying the land the tracks on..

WOT the Fark,...Really? :Oi::nono::mad::weep::argh::crazy::bash::shit::2gu ns:::ar15::weird::done:
Anyone else heard anything about that?

[Kickaha]

WOT the Fark,...Really? :Oi::nono::mad::weep::argh::crazy::bash::shit::2gu ns:::ar15::weird::done:
Anyone else heard anything about that?

Yes really, but the deal is now off, the Track would have shifted to the other side of the road down into the old quarry and a whole new facilty would have been built

[Sketchy_Racer]

I'm sorry, did I hear right? That sounded like 'faster corners are easier' to me. :laugh:

No I didn't say the corner got any easier. The actual corner probably becomes harder than a slow one as I feel that you are rewared (or punished if you get it wrong) more for selecting optimum race lines and figuring out entry compromises for exit speed etc and vice versa.

But as I said finding the level of ulitmate traction is easier for the reasons mentioned below



The faster you are travelling the more gyroscopic effect there is from the wheels and the more inherently stable the bike becomes. With the increased gyroscopic effect the bike becomes more difficult to turn but it also becomes much harder to get the bike out of shape.





The first and last lines say it all ........... :thud:


It was late and I was tired. I started arrogent, but tried to become more open to discussion.

[malcy25]

If the fast rider has a '10% speed advantage' (that's a percentage, not a fixed speed differential) then he'll gain the same amount of time on the slow rider for every second spent in every corner, regardless of whether the corner is slow or fast.

Obviously, if you spend 5 seconds negotiating a corner you'll gain more time on a slower-cornering rider than if you spent 2 seconds negotiating it. Whether the corner's fast or slow is beside the point.

The question is whether that relative speed advantage goes up or down in fast or slow corners.

Assuming the bikes are relatively equal, a second gained in a slow corner is just as good as a second gained in a fast one.

What I haven't seen anyone comment on yet is whether more seconds are gained in fast corners. Yes, of course more metres are gained; that was my point. But does that actually equate to more seconds off the lap time?

To be honest, I doubt that anyone will be able to answer that definitively. Every rider is different enough that there's probably no hard and fast rule, and the top guys are basically just fast everywhere.



Reading between the lines, you seem to be saying that this is because you spend more time in fast corners.

Except, well, that entirely depends on the track, dunnit?

Oh dear....here we go again...

I did explain it and have already answered most of your questions above, you need to understand some simple physics...that is that...

Time = money or really distance in this case ( unless you live in a parellel universe where you can transport from place to place without taking any time).

10% speed (as in velocity) differential is the fast guy travelling 5 km /h faster in the slow corner. 20km/h hour in the fast corner. 10% of 50km/h is 5 km/h which is a A FIXED amount

Travelling at a faster speed means they are getting away (in my universe!)

Looking at the maths...

IF they entered the corner a the same time....
On the slow corner the fast rider would come out 3m ahead, probably less than 2/10's sec.
On the fast corner, the fast rider would come out of the corner 27m metres ahead. At 200km/h that is approx half a second he has gained. IN ONE CORNER. Which he will carry to the next corner (in my happy little world would be another fast corner so I can make another 27m or 1/2 sec gap)

Fuck I should have been a physics teacher.

Jrandom:"Assuming the bikes are relatively equal, a second gained in a slow corner is just as good as a second gained in a fast one" yes, true. But gaining 1 second on a slow corner in the scenario above would require you to travel at 108km/h (average!) around a hairpin that every is travelling at at 50 near their limit! Not really achievable...

Sketchy: "I believe that the faster a corner is, the easier it is to get to the ultimate level of traction a bike has to offer,

Err, no opposite infact - the mechanical advantage is inverse ie force over loading traction is generally harder at high speed. Is easier to break traction at slow speeds than high speeds with power on, or turning and overloading on brakes.

Sketchy: "and that is why lines and planning exits etc and looking at the bigger picture become more important in corners like that. On slower ones, when you reach the maximum traction avaliable, it tends to snap a lot quicker and violently." yes. You just got the traction/speed relationship above wrong, but on the right track.

What people are missing here is that fast corners are not twist grip racing as skunk suggested. It takes a huge amount of bottle and skill to get the entry right on a fast corner, it's bloody hard to work up to the limit (if there is one), people's natural reaction is to chicken, get off the throttle and / or tune in too soon. The next thig is massive lean angle at high speed for a long time.

Sketchy: "No I didn't say the corner got any easier. The actual corner probably becomes harder than a slow one as I feel that you are rewared (or punished if you get it wrong) more for selecting optimum race lines and figuring out entry compromises for exit speed etc and vice versa. "
Bang on mate!

How many times have we all said, I'll do this corner flat in top or whatever, and then rolled it off....

Time for dinner. Class over!:beer:

Have fun gents

[sinfull]

Taupo it is !!!! !

[Mikkel]

Oh dear.....lots to learn still I see:baby:

Sorry, I must have missed the sign which says this forum is only for slow riders who only like slow corners and can't get their knee down!

A little tip - throttle twist racing is a thing called drag racing, but lets not confuse things right now as we have lots to learn still.

I did have a long diatribe formed, but then I remembered an old line - Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Now onto Jrandoms....

No the first thing you have to learn on this forum is that people don't give a fuck about numbers and equations - just take my word for it.

Good shot at arrogance - I dare say I could do that bit better as well. ;)


Above mentioned diatribe accompanied by a few random numbers based on some thought-up scenario which may or may not hold any real relevance.

Evening gents!:first:

Can we agree that it doesn't actually matter how fast you go around a corner in racing? As long as you are faster than the other guys of course.

There are an infinite (practically, on the macro-scale. I am familiar with quantum mechanics, but let's ignore that for now) number of lines you can take around a corner. That goes for slow and fast corners alike.


Oh dear....here we go again...

I did explain it and have already answered most of your questions above, you need to understand some simple physics...that is that...

Mmmm, I like how you say simple physics. At least you didn't say basic or fundamental.


Time = money or really distance in this case ( unless you live in a parellel universe where you can transport from place to place without taking any time).

That was deep - can I quote you again later?


10% speed (as in velocity) differential is the fast guy travelling 5 km /h faster in the slow corner. 20km/h hour in the fast corner. 10% of 50km/h is 5 km/h which is a A FIXED amount

I don't know why you assume that the speed differential necessarily will be a percentage. There's no reason why the speed difference between the faster and the slower rider couldn't be 5 km/h or 20 km/h in both cases.


Travelling at a faster speed means they are getting away (in my universe!)

Depends upon the direction.


Looking at the maths...

IF they entered the corner a the same time....
On the slow corner the fast rider would come out 3m ahead, probably less than 2/10's sec.
On the fast corner, the fast rider would come out of the corner 27m metres ahead. At 200km/h that is approx half a second he has gained. IN ONE CORNER. Which he will carry to the next corner (in my happy little world would be another fast corner so I can make another 27m or 1/2 sec gap)

I can't see any maths here. All I can see are a few random numbers based on unexplained assumptions.


Fuck I should have been a physics teacher.

Considering the ineptitude of most physics teachers I think you would indeed have fitted in quite well.


Jrandom:"Assuming the bikes are relatively equal, a second gained in a slow corner is just as good as a second gained in a fast one" yes, true. But

No BUT - one second is one second. Full stop. It doesn't matter where you gain it. In racing you'll be racing your peers - as such there are no corners on which you could gain an entire second unless your competitor ran off the track. Thus, pointing out the infeasibility of gaining a second on a hairpin is a waste of time.


Err, no opposite infact - the mechanical advantage is inverse ie force over loading traction is generally harder at high speed. Is easier to break traction at slow speeds than high speeds with power on, or turning and overloading on brakes.

Your statement lacks clarity. The reason why you more easily loose traction at lower speeds is simply due to the following relation (hold on, here comes an actual equation):

P = F*v (Power equals Force times velocity) (If you want the entire thing taking torque, tyre radii and rotational momentum into account I can reference you a good book on classical mechanics)

If you double your speed you'll have half the amount of force put into the ground. As such (unless you possess the mother of all RAM-air systems and have twice the power at twice the speed) you'll be less likely to spin your tyre on a fast corner than on a slow one.

This basically what you said, I suppose, but then you are not in disagreement with Sketchy. Of course getting the corner right is a different thing and your grey matter have to work much faster to process the information when you're traveling at twice the speed.


Time for dinner. Class over!:beer:

Have fun gents

Thanks, I had fun. :yes:

[brads]

Geez guys,enough with all the scientific mumbo jumbo,:calm:,best track??
LEVELS :2thumbsup

[puddytat]

:wait::drinkup::corn:

[malcy25]

Mikkel

Glad to see that some one else around here has an education.

Arrogance: Hmm, I place a short polite post (#8 & #18) about why I think a track is my favourite, I get arrogant posts back. Fairs fair I reckon to now shoot from the hip. By the way don't assume my low post count doesn't mean I haven't been around forums for years.

"simple physics" - I could have said simple maths. Whatever. I tend to use the term physics when a body is in motion.

Quoting: I like how you quote me (the second quote in your last post), but edit the quote inserting your own words and removig most if not all of mine. That's very misleading and dare I say it, offensive as it can only be by design.

"some thought-up scenario" I'm offended (and amused you haven't even read the whole thread). Refer post # 32. I ref examples of two corners at Puke for the scenario and also make ref that the numbers are not totally accurate but effectively close enough to work with (+ or minus 5 km/h is not going to change it fundamentally). I don't have a speedo on my race bike sorry, but I have a good idea of what speeds are being done where and the ones quoted are close enough for this.

Numbers and Equations: I regularly make fact based decisons not those based emotions, half truths, supposition or hearsay. Objective truth is the best way of getting FACTS across. Too many people work in the subjective to their detriment and some of the stuff being quoted in other posts on this topic is totally subjective and not based on fact or even close to reality. Facts are proof. Subjective words are just words.

Misquoting Jack Nicholson, (if) You can't handle the truth....not my problem!

"I don't know why you assume that the speed differential necessarily will be a percentage" Yep, doesn't matter but will ultimately prove the same result on "go fast in fast corners". However I used a % on the simple basis that say a good rider rode through the critical part of a corner at a higher level and using a 10% was a simple way of extrapolating their skill creating a higher speed over the "average" rider in the assumption.

"Random numbers based on unexplained assumptions": Again, my previous post (#32) provides the assumptions. Best you go back and read it. It provides enough information for anyone with calculator and a finger to press the numbers to confirm. By the way, to convert km/h into metres per second: times the km/h figure by 1000 and then divide that result by 3600).

Apologies though, I did round things to full metres and nearest 10th of second.

"No BUT - one second is one second. Full stop. It doesn't matter where you gain it. In racing you'll be racing your peers - as such there are no corners on which you could gain an entire second unless your competitor ran off the track. Thus, pointing out the infeasibility of gaining a second on a hairpin is a waste of time."

Actually 1) "Yes, but" As I proved using FACTS, it is bloody hard (basically unfeasible)to make up one second in a slow corner and reality is you make little ground (the example being .2 sec or 3 metres). BUT you can make up a lot more time in a fast corner. The numbers used are approximates but the end result would provide the same output with regards to the answer proving that you make little ground on another rider by trying to fast in a slow corner vs going fast in a fast corner. 2) I know of riders who have entered t1 at Puke and had no one in sight and found a rider half way around - that would mean they would have gained over 1 sec because of the length of the preceeding straight...

"Your statement lacks clarity." Apologies sir, mark me down. I was hungry and my blood sugar was low. I was in a hurry, my dog eat my lunch and my home work, the bus broke down. AS I have heard at various times. Build a bridge. get over it.

"forum is that people don't give a fuck about numbers and equations "
1) Maybe they should. Refer previous comments about fact based decisions.
2) maybe they do cos they all seem keen on the numbers that relate to their bikes, cc, HP, 1/4 mile, weight etc.

"Can we agree that it doesn't actually matter how fast you go around a corner in racing? As long as you are faster than the other guys of course." Sure, why not as it the truth. But lets put some science behind it for clarity so people can understand why some riders have a better lap time rather than fumbling around. However, sadly there is a misaprehension that you gain as much by trying to go hard on slow corner as as you do by going hard on fast corners. I have more than adequately proven that this is not the case.

"Quote: Originally Posted by malcy25
Travelling at a faster speed means they are getting away (in my universe!)
Depends upon the direction." Sorry, I made the assumption that as we were talking racing we were all going the same direction.

"That was deep - can I quote you again later?" Sure, why not fill your boots, you can use it for free even.

"as such there are no corners on which you could gain an entire second" are you so sure? I know of some long corners....reality is that yes, that is probably the truth that in NZ there are few corners you could gain a second - though T1 at Puke, Teretonga both have some long or fast sweepers and given enough speed difference betwen a fast and slow rider, (say 40km/h at T1 at Puke example, if you backsolve my results, you would find you would gain 1 second). But nowhere did I say there were.

Rather I was responding to Jrandom's comment about gaining a second and showing what would need to be done in the example to gain one second (proving it wasn't feasible) and further reinforcing that trying to make big time on slow corners is pointless.

Frankly we could sit here and pick apart each other's arguements for days, but I have more fulfilling things to do than sit in front of a computer. No doubt you'll have another crack at my responses above. Do I care? Not really, will I bother to read it, probably not as this will just continue to spiral around some tiny points of order and attempted bitch slapping and be a totally pointless exercise.

Am I a great racer? no but I'm no novice either (there's a NZ GP cup in chch with my name on it). I've been around long enough, read, discussed and listened a lot over the years and absorbed some great information from some very smart racers. I've applied this as best that I can and as such I've developed a good understanding of what does and doesn't work in the real world. It amuses me watching some of the hand me down chinese whispers on forums get passed around as fact, when in reality it is fiction. Then when you do provide the facts reinforced with real word experience or examples it gets poo pooed because people are so cocked up. The fun of forums I guess!

Ah well, such is life and it really is not my problem if people want to throw themselves on the ground trying to go fast on slow corners. As long as they don't take me with them.

Puke still counts over Taupo though. But I did love Baypark despite the sand, the three hairpins and falling off there on my last real ride. Turn one was sex and made up for the crappy rest. I made up at least one second on my lap times there just in that corner alone....just by concentrating on line and entry speed. I made another second TOTAL on the other three corners combined....

Thread hijack over.

Evening folks!

[codgyoleracer]

In Order: Levels, Teretonga, Ruapuna, Pukekohe, Manfield, Taupo

[scrivy]

For a dumb arsed hasbeen sidecar driver, can you two mathmaticians tell me:
If I twist the throttle harder around faster corners, and brake later into corners and put the power on earlier coming out of corners, will I go faster???
I need to know, 'cause I'm getting my arse kicked by LCR sidecars......... :whistle:

BTW.... Taupo all the way.... heaps of run off (good for practicing wet weather racing), lovely continual corners (I don't like drag racing), and enough corners to go hard under brakes!!

[Shaun P]

Frankly we could sit here and pick apart each other's arguements for days, but I have more fulfilling things to do than sit in front of a computer.



r u sure? :laugh: would of taken me a whole year to write that

[Mikkel]

Yada yada yada...

The reason I abbreviated your post was simply because my post was getting long enough as it was - and while I responded to that particular bit of your post it didn't actually contain anything of merit, which was the point of my assertion in the first place. If you find that offensive, too bad - follow your own advice: "build a bridge and get over it".

My point, which you may have missed, was simply that sitting down and doing theoretical calculations without stipulating clearly what assumptions they are based upon is just a waste of time. There is nothing to be gained or learned from it. Certainly, one would be able to calculate the optimal line around a race track - if you have the track for yourself mind. Knowing what that line is wouldn't help you much with anything besides setting a new lap record.

I am not a racer - but I understand the following: if you're going 10% faster around a race track than somebody else - then you are not racing them, you're just passing them. Further more - if you go 10% faster then you'll cut the time you take to travel a certain distance to 10/11 of the original time... As such your gain will become larger the longer time/distance you are doing so, nothing new in that.
You propose that pushing hard on slow corners is a wasted effort - if you want to win a serious race you can not afford not to push hard all the time. At the end of the day whoever can push the hardest without pushing that little bit too hard is the one who is going to win.

What I like about your posts is the fact that you present your "calculations" as if they were technical, insightful, correct and interesting. Unfortunately they are neither or those things. However, add in your cocky attitude and it becomes a bloody good joke - thank you for the laugh :)

Oh, and if you think anyone gives a fuck about your post count - you're wrong about that too.

Finally, I don't have any issues whether people understand physics on a technical level or not - I do have a problem with those who pretend they do.

[roogazza]

In Order: Levels, Teretonga, Ruapuna, Pukekohe, Manfield, Taupo

That'd be my order Glen. I was surprised to see how highly Taupo scored but that probably has a lot to do with KB membership . Nearly all my 'old fart' mates, pick Levels. Gaz.

[codgyoleracer]

That'd be my order Glen. I was surprised to see how highly Taupo scored but that probably has a lot to do with KB membership . Nearly all my 'old fart' mates, pick Levels. Gaz.

Oh o, Ime officialy an old fart then.......... :-) , Hopefully Hampton Downs goes to the front of the list !

[speedracerjimmy]

levels is my pick.

[jrandom]

That'd be my order Glen. I was surprised to see how highly Taupo scored but that probably has a lot to do with KB membership .

Well, yeah, you can hardly expect those of us who've only ever ridden NI tracks to refrain from voting and skewing the results.

;)

[kickingzebra]

levels is my pick.

Mine sometimes sticks kind of upwards and to the left, OHH Pick, sorry my mistake...:devil2:

[sidecar bob]

For a dumb arsed hasbeen sidecar driver, can you two mathmaticians tell me:
If I twist the throttle harder around faster corners, and brake later into corners and put the power on earlier coming out of corners, will I go faster???
I need to know, 'cause I'm getting my arse kicked by LCR sidecars......... :whistle:

BTW.... Taupo all the way.... heaps of run off (good for practicing wet weather racing), lovely continual corners (I don't like drag racing), and enough corners to go hard under brakes!!

I think youre a pisstaking MoFo dob & youre only getting beaten by the LCR's because youre becoming incredibly soft & talent free.
Fortunately i have a 90hp BMW classic waiting for you wich your fading talent ought to be able to keep on the tarmac for a couple more years. :niceone:

[scrivy]

I think youre a pisstaking MoFo dob & youre only getting beaten by the LCR's because youre becoming incredibly soft & talent free.
Fortunately i have a 90hp BMW classic waiting for you wich your fading talent ought to be able to keep on the tarmac for a couple more years. :niceone:

Bring it Bob!! Bring it to the Have-a-goat-day!! I might just swap ya yet!!

[Deano]

Ruapuna - I've never raced on it but have done a track day there. Good surface and it has it all - fast straight, sweepers, hairpins, a big dipper.

Mint.

[Kickaha]

I think youre a pisstaking MoFo dob & youre only getting beaten by the LCR's because youre becoming incredibly soft & talent free.

I thought he'd always been talent free?:jerry: although if he is incredibly soft why would you need the non molestaion board?

[pritch]

I did have a long diatribe formed, but then I remembered an old line - Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Don't hold back. You should fit right in around here :laugh:

Bling sent.

[R1madness]

1 Teratonga, Great circuit often available cheaply in weekends and fast corners
2 Levels, the first track i raced on
3 Puke, it made me shiver every time i rode it.
4 Manfield used to be great but nows its a bit rough
5 Taupo looks cool but havn't raced on it
6 Ruapuna cause it has hurt me too often especially the infield sweeper where the tyre wall is too close to the edge of the track :doctor:
Where is Hampton Downs going to fit i wonder........

[wharfy]

I havn't voted in this poll as I have only raced at Taupo and Manfield, Taupo seems to be leading which is a bit of a worry - have ANY tracks in NZ got a good surface without patches and/or bumps ? ( I prefer Taupo to Manfield but it is longer colder ride to get there ) :)

[k14]

I havn't voted in this poll as I have only raced at Taupo and Manfield, Taupo seems to be leading which is a bit of a worry - have ANY tracks in NZ got a good surface without patches and/or bumps ? ( I prefer Taupo to Manfield but it is longer colder ride to get there ) :)
Probably teretonga has the best surface. Only one bump on the sweeper but you can avoid that and not loose any time. Ruapuna isn't too bad (and getting better) but still has a few corners with some corrugations and the occasional change in seal.

[Ivan]

Manfield aint to bad after the reseal to be honest.

Manfield full circuit out back in thedry is wickedly fun and fast especially the ongoing leftthatsfun in the dry not so fun in the wet


Taupo full is cool if you lvoe the fast flowing propertys the long circuit has and Taupo short is a wicked 125 circuit when geared right,

Puke is extremly fun from the hair pin till the back straightthenit gets boring then woah its fun again

[Fatjim]

The Rimutukas, without question. No track fees, great run off areas and a place to stop half way for a ciggy or a pie.