KTM 450 sxf lunched

[kezzafish]

long story short, was riding in karapoti (wellington) stalled in a deep puddle and carried on riding (thought nothing of it) about an hours riding later the bike stalled at high revs and i became worried, the oil in the inspection glass was white. It seems the breather sucked in water when i stalled in the puddle and this turned the engine oil to porridge. even after it stalled and i noticed the water, i kept riding to try to get back to my van. After about another hour it seized solid. The damage: both camshafts seized into journals in head, all 4 cam lobes ground down at the same time destroying the cam followers, piston has gouged out a good groove in bore. and all this because thick oil couldn't squirt through the squirters in head and underneath piston.

I was reading a story further down the thread list about an aucklanders sad
2t ktm and wanted to ease his pain with my sob story. He'd only ridden his for an hour which is worse than my 10 hours (on an '07 that i'd had for 2 weeks, and being new engine model no one knew anything about.

My total parts bill if i bought the parts from my local dealer was $5500. this included a new head, crank, valves, followers, piston, gasket set etc. i had a mate buy factory ktm parts from "Munn racing" in Texas and the bill came to under $3000nzd including a new barrel, tax and shipping etc but excluding a new crank.

I still haven't got it back together, and hadn't ridden dirt for months (until last weekend when i took my DRZ400 motard on a trail ride, now that is desperation!)

My only shout out/help request is does anyone have any of the ktm special tools for this model, or the KTM special knowledge (the engine is an RF4) namely i need the camshaft locking tool for timing it up and the hydraulic chain tensioned re-setting tool

Shit that wasn't a short story was it? Cheers

[B0000M]

well all i can say to that is sucks to be you!

also maybe time for a 2 stroke. good luck fucking a cam or a head on one of them!

[CookMySock]

I'm pretty sure you are after condolences rather than advice, so I feel your pain.. but for the benefit of others ;


the bike stalled at high revs and i became worried, the oil in the inspection glass was white. [.....] even after it stalled and i noticed the water, i kept riding to try to get back to my van.If something bad happens to an engine, just turn it off, sit down, and eat your chocolate bar. Dont start the fucker. Get on the cellphone and get some support - you need engine oil, filter, and spanners. Pull your plastic sheet out and make a tent. Find some berries to eat. Have a wank. Do anything, but absolutely do not start that engine. Tempting innit... :nono:

I have had staff who "know better" do the same thing and destroy engines. I wish they would just do what they were fucking told.

DB

[tommorth]

man that sux

never thought about what would happen to a 4st of it sucked up water my kdx has and it doesnt seem to mind just takes lots of flushing but its a 2 stroke
theres some good discounts from Munn racing on the ktmtalk site
good luck putting it together maybe you can make somthing to hold the bits

ps I might live in auckland but I'm no aucklander proud northlander here!!!! lol

[Reckless]

Shit man $5500NZ for parts alone suppose you have to add labour to that as well if you couldn't fix it yourself. Probably be $7000 if you had to pay for an NZ shop to do it. Jeeper's that's more than my 2 bikes are worth. Damn near what I'm paying for my new bike. Jeepers I'm sticking with 2 smokers that's for sure! tommorths total bill for near everything was probably only a grand.
Boy that's a scary story! You've just convinced me all my 2smoker justification theories are 100% correct.

BTW hope you get your tools! If you do all the work wouldn't cost to much for the shop to time the cams would it??

[xr-rider]

I still haven't got it back together, and hadn't ridden dirt for months (until last weekend when i took my DRZ400 motard on a trail ride, now that is desperation!)


was that you on the motuiti ride?

[kezzafish]

is motuiti the ride just out of foxton? if yes then yes. i don't think anyone saw me without noticing my tyres, ha haa, what a nightmare, a real learning experience. was worth it burt only because i got to have a good thrash on my brothers "dirt friendly" drz

[kezzafish]

[QUOTE=Reckless;1706302]Shit man $5500NZ for parts alone suppose you have to add labour to that as well if you couldn't fix it yourself. Probably be $7000 if you had to pay for an NZ shop to do it. Jeeper's that's more than my 2 bikes are worth. Damn near what I'm paying for my new bike. Jeepers I'm sticking with 2 smokers that's for sure! tommorths total bill for near everything was probably only a grand.
Boy that's a scary story! You've just convinced me all my 2smoker justification theories are 100% correct.

Yeah mate, 5500 was just parts, i'm gonna put it together myself but i don't fancy my chances of borrowing my KTM dealers tools because of what i said when they told me the price of the parts

2 smokers are definately the way to go. all the modern motox 4 strokes are even more highly strung maintenance monsters than their 2 stroke equivalent and cost 3 times as much to service. The other point to make is, buy something japanese, parts are cheap and readily available and your not forced to buy original parts. In saying that, i'm on the look for a 300exc or a gasgas300/250!!! i'll never learn

[secondfield]

Cripes, your a keen man! ha... mad bugger!

I was gonna go on that one too but ended up at taikorea bike park just up the road for a few cross country laps. It was bloody well pissing down all day, the sand was soaked and the pits were flooded. Had a good ride though ... man wet sand's a bitch to ride through sometimes, shouldve seen they guys on the mx track there all over the place like a mad womans shit. :blink:

Good luck with the kato ... im sure youll figure something out. see ya back out karipoti then.

[secondfield]

Nah, stick with the four fity' boss. Dont heed those two stroker munters... jus look after it. There bulletproof when you get to know your machine well ...

[B0000M]

Nah, stick with the four fity' boss. Dont heed those two stroker munters... jus look after it. There bulletproof when you get to know your machine well ...

who are you calling a munter? :bleh:

i guess ill do another full top end rebuilt at the end of this year, i think ill replace everything other than the head itself... now where am i going to dig up $250 and an hour and a half of my time from..... :niceone::niceone::niceone:

[Reckless]

The other point to make is, buy something japanese, parts are cheap and readily available and your not forced to buy original parts. In saying that, i'm on the look for a 300exc or a gasgas300/250!!! i'll never learn

Trouble is most of the jap manufacturers are going out of 2 smokers thats why I went Ktm after my Cr250. The 300exc would be more like your 450 probably? torque etc. But I'm faster on my 200 than I was on my Cr250 which compares in total power (50 odd) to a 450. You don't want to hear me cracking on about the 200 again but try one. You might be surprised by its torque and you can make it what you want with the adjustable power valve set up.

[Pierce]

Wow what a bad day that would be!
Yeah I gotta agree with BOOOM 2T thing.

[secondfield]

Oh Christ, stirred up a hornets eh ... Shouldve figured judging by the 2T / 4T poll. I guess we are going :Offtopic:

Hopefully someone will help you out mate with those tools or some know how...

BTW I just rebuilt the top end of the zuki'.

350$ for high comp piston and complete gasket set. Valves were all good too. Could've got those replaced for 200 bucks if need be. Contrary to popular belief they only need doing every 100+ hours or so (more in most cases). As long as you aint a pro mx'er completely flogging the arse off the bike, they are reliable as hell. Just a freak accident is what happend to you there boss...

David Knight will tell ya. He loves his 450! :Punk:

[B0000M]

350$ for high comp piston and complete gasket set. Valves were all good too. Could've got those replaced for 200 bucks if need be.

so you're up to $550 so far, without rings, bearings, shims, and whatever else wears out on a 4 stroke top end

[barty5]

so you're up to $550 so far, without rings, bearings, shims, and whatever else wears out on a 4 stroke top end

yeh but its good for 100 hrs how offten you doing piston and rings??

[Rupe]

yeh but its good for 100 hrs how offten you doing piston and rings??

I'm good for 100+ hrs, apparently.
But I don't have an hour meter so who knows how many it did last time.

[B0000M]

yeh but its good for 100 hrs how offten you doing piston and rings??

well you got me there.

[tommorth]

I rekon its about even parts wise provided you dont have a major failure on a fourstroke if you can do the work yourself its no big deal
4ts use less fuel and dont need premix
a mate has an 07 yzf250 that he rapes all the time its probly done 200hours still going strong he did the piston and rings at 100hours needed clearances adjusted on 2 valves reckons the piston looked like new

I still prefer 2 strokes though just for the sound when they come on pipe and the smoke stream stops you geting lost lol

any other dealers nearby that might time you cams for you?

reckless my parts quote was from ktm was near on 3500 :sweatdrop and there where a few things that weren't included around 2k of that was cylinder and pipe which can be shrunk a lot by replating

[secondfield]

yup that was rings too.. BTW., very close.

[xwhatsit]

Well what bloody stupid place to put a crankcase breather. Had it been modified? I thought bikes like these were sorted so they could go underwater right up to the top of the airbox?

[kezzafish]

Agreed, it comes out at the level of the crankshaft and goes down through the swingarm with the rest of the waste pipes from the carb etc. The whole pipe wouldn't be a foot long. and because of the hollow crank and sealing system it makes those parts extremely expensive. Austrians are retarded. I'm sure the exc models are much hardier tho. I don't know about RMZs etc bot the yzf450 breather comes out of the cam cover and my mate who rides one rode through that same puddle that killed my bike on his! End of the day you should buy enduro bikes for bush bashing but i don't want to pay all that extra money for a road kit and a bike that's heavier with shit i don't need like a kick stand and a headlight

[secondfield]

Yeah the RMZ comes out of roughly the same place too. Shes an m'xer as well.
I have seen some breather pipes with a tapered end, that squeezes closed with a small slit in it to prevent crap being sucked back into the crank.

[theblacksmith]

I have an old kdx250 (93)- im upto 96hrs on a wiseco piston - bore is still original Nikasil - heaps of compression still.Bikes been totally submerged (Waiouru army ride river crossing).Took air cleaner out and squashed water out.Lifted bike up onto rear wheel to drain water from expansion chamber never took plug out even(no spanner)- kicked the fkn thing a few times and it started and pissed out water from every pipe I could see.
Gearbox oil took on the appearance of soy milk.Rode back to base no probs and did another two loops freezing my bollocks off in wet gear.I went down there to have fun not a great big parts bill.Probably done another 18 trail rides since then.Long live 2 smokers.Especially green ones.New Wiseco piston kit and gasket set - $280 and 3 hrs of my time.Cool.:yes:

[secondfield]

Hey kazzafish, was that 'puddle' up the back of karapoti at the top of the pines? just before you come back onto the main track.The bike deep,water filled rut that gets ya every time... Its taken me 3 rides to come through that without bogging and stalling..

re the big four's. JE rebuild kits are sweet. A full top end, high performance rebuild kit for around 500 bucks. Includes forged piston, rings, gudgeon, stainless valves, springs, shims plus complete gasket set required for re-build. Good value. I got a 12:8 comp piston in my RMZ.

Austrians aint retarded thats for sure. The engineering that goes into a kato is pretty damn well thought out. The exc's are a piece of work for sure. Even got a little magnet on the sump plug to catch bits of metal that may otherwise find its way into the rest of the engine. Attention to detail. MX'ers generally arent expected to be stalled under three feet of water! Oh maybe some Austrians are retarded ....the inbred ones who like to lock their kids in basement's etc etc...
But even then they could hold electrical engineering dgrees..


http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Motorbikes/Parts-accessories/Performance/auction-172447214.htm

Still love those big four strokes ... sound like hell on wheels, traction for africa, more forgiving and less tiring to ride than a two poker (for those of us who arn'et Juha salamen), they will get you where you want to go with a minimum of clutch slipping, wheel spinning, plug fouling gas guzzling antics.

The RMZ actually feels like a two stroke to ride, it reminds me of my old 490. (a couple of mates have said that too).

So whats the plan with the kato? you getting it sorted yet mate?

[kezzafish]

Hey kazzafish, was that 'puddle' up the back of karapoti at the top of the pines? just before you come back onto the main track.The bike deep,water filled rut that gets ya every time... Its taken me 3 rides to come through that without bogging and stalling..

So whats the plan with the kato? you getting it sorted yet mate?

Yeah, that sounds like my puddle. In the clay shit, good fun.
The pumpkin has to be going in 2 weeks for pumice blast or else i'll go mental. I'm doing a super rough jobbie, gonna stick the barrel back in now thay i've given it a once over with sand paper, put in a JE piston like the one you mentioned, re use valves, got a new cam shaft and i've got an engineer doing some dodgy trickery with the ceased head, new gasket set, clean out the sludge, re shim and ride it, then trade it. What ya think of that idea?

[crazyxr250rider]

Sounds Budge, do it right....... how bad are the cam galleries???? at least get the barrel re plated or sleeved try the price for aftermarket valves and crank.
never take short cuts it always ends in tears........

[barty5]

Yeah, that sounds like my puddle. In the clay shit, good fun.
The pumpkin has to be going in 2 weeks for pumice blast or else i'll go mental. I'm doing a super rough jobbie, gonna stick the barrel back in now thay i've given it a once over with sand paper, put in a JE piston like the one you mentioned, re use valves, got a new cam shaft and i've got an engineer doing some dodgy trickery with the ceased head, new gasket set, clean out the sludge, re shim and ride it, then trade it. What ya think of that idea?

note to self dont buy bike from you dodgy dodgy

[crazyxr250rider]

Like I said it would only end in tears.... but not for him......:shutup:

[kezzafish]

Sounds Budge, do it right....... how bad are the cam galleries???? at least get the barrel re plated or sleeved try the price for aftermarket valves and crank.
never take short cuts it always ends in tears........

The barrel is not too bad and the valves aren't bad at all, companies and people hype the maintenance shit over the top because it covers them and makes them more money. A bit of common sense must come into play. Aftermarket valves and crank have been impossible to find and there's nothing wrong with the crank. I plan to replace the bore after pumice blast, it's just that i don't want to wait any longer. Riding is the reason i go to work every day and if i go much longer without riding i will slit my wrists (joke) the head suffered the major damage and i'll probably end up ordering one of them too. Re plating is not that cheap (around 600) when i can get a brand new barrel from the states for 800 and continue riding my bike on a dodgy bore until the new one arrives. The barrels on these bikes aren't sleeveable because of the wall thickness (thinness). the underlying point here is that all bikes (especially the late model ones and double especially the mxers) are time bombs the amount left on the timer is all that varies

[crazyxr250rider]

If the Crank is ok go ahead but do you want to risk screwing your new cam in a munted head???

[kezzafish]

If the Crank is ok go ahead but do you want to risk screwing your new cam in a munted head???

It sucks but i'll take that risk because i want to ride, the cam siezed in the journals and the lobes ground off because the squirters were blocked. therefore as long as the oil doesn't get into the same state as it was and block the squirters the cams will be fine. If the engineers trick with the head fails then i'm up for a new head which i should have done anyway so my loss is only the engineers bill (280) and a gasket set. however, it is much more likely that it'll run and run and run

[crazyxr250rider]

Sound good just dont be a cunt and sell it like it is ive fixed a few "Mint" Mx bikes in the last year..... Whats he doing with the journals?, are they completely gouged out or just starting to pick up???

[kezzafish]

Wanna know the engineers trick?
Most of the wear on the head was not actually on the journals in the head it was on the journal caps that hold the cam shafts in place, these suffer the most damage because the cams are always being forced upwards by the valve springs. KTM don't sell the caps seperately because they are individually matched to the head for correct clearance. So, i got the engineer to plane off a mm from the bottom (flat) surface of the caps and re bore the holes for the cam shafts and also clean up the journals. I hope it works

[kezzafish]

i don't think the journals are too bad??? do you use that plasti stuff to chech tolerances?

[crazyxr250rider]

Fuck thats cleva just make shure you re-shim the valves afta its done a couple of hrs after the cam and valves bed-in

[crazyxr250rider]

Never used it aye dont know if it works or not...

[kezzafish]

Got my head back from the engineer, i plastiguaged the cam shaft in the journal and it comes up quite loose!! should be a max of .055 according to the manualbut it came up to .150 they're fukken rough cunts man. You can feel the shaft jiggle. I'm gonna run it and see how it goes. was up till 2am this morn putting bottom together, with the damaged barrel sanded and new piston installed. (there's still some lines down the bore but hopefully she'll be right) have put valves back in head etc, i've measured up valve clearances and have just gotta order a couple new shims which will hopefully be in stock at KTM and arrive tomorrow. All going well the big Karapoti test will be on sunday. will post on how it goes

[kezzafish]

Shit man $5500NZ for parts alone suppose you have to add labour to that as well if you couldn't fix it yourself. Probably be $7000 if you had to pay for an NZ shop to do it. Jeeper's that's more than my 2 bikes are worth. Damn near what I'm paying for my new bike. Jeepers I'm sticking with 2 smokers that's for sure! tommorths total bill for near everything was probably only a grand.
Boy that's a scary story! You've just convinced me all my 2smoker justification theories are 100% correct.

BTW hope you get your tools! If you do all the work wouldn't cost to much for the shop to time the cams would it??

Super good cunt at bike shop lent me the special tool in exchange for a box of heineken!!

[kezzafish]

Cripes, your a keen man! ha... mad bugger!

I was gonna go on that one too but ended up at taikorea bike park just up the road for a few cross country laps. It was bloody well pissing down all day, the sand was soaked and the pits were flooded. Had a good ride though ... man wet sand's a bitch to ride through sometimes, shouldve seen they guys on the mx track there all over the place like a mad womans shit. :blink:

Good luck with the kato ... im sure youll figure something out. see ya back out karipoti then.

Yeah mate see ya on sunday, meet you at the puddle!!

[barty5]

Got my head back from the engineer, i plastiguaged the cam shaft in the journal and it comes up quite loose!! should be a max of .055 according to the manualbut it came up to .150 they're fukken rough cunts man. You can feel the shaft jiggle. I'm gonna run it and see how it goes. was up till 2am this morn putting bottom together, with the damaged barrel sanded and new piston installed. (there's still some lines down the bore but hopefully she'll be right) have put valves back in head etc, i've measured up valve clearances and have just gotta order a couple new shims which will hopefully be in stock at KTM and arrive tomorrow. All going well the big Karapoti test will be on sunday. will post on how it goes

if they loose why not take a tiny bit more off the bottoms flat surface and fine wet and dry should be enough looking at those figures?

[secondfield]

Yeah - probably not this sunday, gotta do fathers day with the father in law :zzzz: , thought id get out for a ride, but now im a dad better sort out the whanau buisness first eh. definately next weekend. Possibly even wednesday arvo or so, im off work for a couple of weeks. gotta mate with a 450exc who may take the day off too. PM me sometime, well sort something out. Good luck with the repairs. Sounds like a real fucken number 8 wire job, but with a bit of luck they can last for years.... :2thumbsup

[FlangMasterJ]

I'm keen to head up the Karapoti this weekend. Might see you up there.

By the way when is fathers day?:pinch:

[kezzafish]

if they loose why not take a tiny bit more off the bottoms flat surface and fine wet and dry should be enough looking at those figures?


Nah, you'll never get .1 of a mil off accurately across a flat surface with sand paper, it needs more machining


I'm keen to head up the Karapoti this weekend. Might see you up there.

By the way when is fathers day?:pinch:

Cool, might see ya although it's lookin a bit less likely 'cos i did nothing on it last night ended up drinkin Jack's and talking shit. If i can get the moty back in da frame tonight and everything works then i'll be there sunday, are you on a 250 sxf? Fathers day is Sunday

[kezzafish]

It runs, hurrah. there's a high pitched noise coming from the motor. I think it's always had this sound but it just seems louder. It's also quite tight so may quieten down once run in. We'll see how long she lasts

[kezzafish]

Fukken brilliant, goes good, high pitched noise is normal and has quietened down considerably. Ran in for a couple hours at red rocks on Tuesday and went for a hoon up Karapoti Wednesday and it went good. Worked out a shit load cheaper than getting the bike shop to do it or even getting the parts through them and doing it yourself. Spent less than 2G all up so if anyone wants a hand with getting parts from the US for their "Austrian money pit" i'd be glad to help as i have a mate over there and the company i got my bits through won't send overseas. Cheers for ya comments, suggestions and support. See ya at Pumice blast