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View Full Version : Draft - help please? "The things that you need to know when you start riding."



thehollowmen
20th January 2005, 22:23
I'm writing this... sorta think it might want to be made sticky in the newbies section eventually... gotta make it good enough first though. Any suggestions?



The things that you need to know when you start riding.

I started riding about a year ago, because parking expenses were too high to keep my car near my work. I knew a little about biking from extended family members, and hoped I could get by on a little luck and a little help from my friend the internet.

Sadly, I didn’t know a lot of basic and obvious things that could have caused a real disaster had I been put in a tricky situation. Thankfully I didn’t push limits very far and a few people popped out of the woodwork to help improve my riding skills, and make my bike safe to ride.

First off

When you get a bike there are things you need to do immediately, before you ride it, first being locating the toolkit and checking that the handlebars are at a comfortable level and you can turn them all the (“locking the steering”) way both ways without them hitting your legs or the tank. Test the brakes (lock them), and make sure everything is within reach. Most bikeshops for some strange reason set everything up for a four or seven foot tall person.

Don't try to save money of helmets, jackets, brakes or tyres. These things are there to save your life. If you do go down, get away from the bike and any objects. Sliding across the road and getting gravel rash is much less permanent than hitting a solid object and breaking bones. Good leathers will reduce the gravel rash too. Honda and most other bikers will have a great story to tell you about this.

Never ride when tired. You're supposed to enjoy yourself, so just take a nap or coffee or pit stop. If you slow your reactions by being tired or by using drugs, you're really just asking for trouble.

KEEP YOUR BIKE MANUAL!
This is invaluable and they can cost the earth to acquire again. They have things like tyre pressures, oil amount, fuel types, wiring diagrams… all the things you’ll need one day.

And the fuelcock! Make sure it is on. It is a valve, usually on the left side of the bike, and has 3 settings, “on, off, and reserve.” or (on, reserve, prime) Reserve is a couple of spare liters for when you run out. Don’t run your bike on this all the time or when you run out you’ll be pushing it home, but do run it for a few kilometers after filling up to make sure the pipes are clear and working and you won’t get stuck when you run out. The bike CAN run in “off” mode but will only run for a few hundred meters before spluttering and stopping and will confuse you. Prime I'm told is for vacuum operated valves, and fills the carbs with fuel so you can start. Don't run your bike for too long with this on or you'll get terrible fuel efficiency and might be doing damage to your motor by running rich (too much petrol in the engine).

If you have a cell phone, keep it charged and carry it. Make sure you have the Insurance company, bike shop, and a friend-with-a-towbar programmed into contacts. A friend with a cage can get a trailer from most petrol stations.

If you’re on ice, snow, new paint, oil, wet road markings or wet steel, you will find the surface is slippery. Try to stay upright and moving in a straight line and keep the throttle still… It also helps to be in a low gear and not going around a corner. You can try and ride over it slowly with a foot down if you like, but avoiding this is the best bet. Car tyres will move most of these out of the way for you so that’s why we follow the right hand tyre mark.

Some bikes require you to let the clutch out a little to change back into first after an emergency stop.

Maintenance

Set aside an hour each week to do the TCLOCK and other maintenance.
TCLOCK stands for Tyres, Cables, Lights, Oil, Chassis (and chain), and Kickstand.

• Tyres need to be checked to make sure they are inflated to the correct pressure, aren’t damaged. They go down a few psi a week, keep checking. A good pump or pressure check is good because the station's meters vary a lot. Check the spokes are tight (they should “ring” if you tap them with a spanner, if it sounds dull tighten them) and that the rims aren’t warped. Honda has a "tyre panda" which fills up the tyre with foam and allows you to get to the bikeshop... I am going to get one when I find one.

• Cables (throttle, clutch and brake cables) all need to move smoothly and not be frayed or damaged. Check the gear shifter, brakes and kill switch are all working.

• Lights need to work. Check them by starting the bike in neutral and walking around it checking each light (brakes and indicators too) is working and aren’t damaged. If you can check the horn too. And check the lights work at full beam too. I didn’t do this after someone backed into my bike and was riding with no light for a month before I realized this and now I hang my head in shame…

• Oil and brake fluid should be at the right level, and not be leaking. Your bike might leave a mark below the sprockets (those toothy cog things) on the ground but if that is thick and black that is chain oil.

• Chassis (and chain). Check they aren’t damaged or cracked; lubricate the chain with some chain oil. Check your suspension works.

• The Kickstand needs to be able to keep itself up when you’re riding, and shouldn’t fold up when you’ve parked your bike. Check it to make sure it isn’t loose or too tight in any of these positions.

• After doing these, take the bike for a spin (wheelie or stoppie or whatever) to flick off the chain oil so it doesn’t leave marks everywhere.

You’ll hear people talking about tappets. I haven’t found them yet on my bike and let the bike shop do that maintenance for me. Don’t attack anything with a spanner unless you’ve got knowledgeable help on how to put it together again. I’m getting braver, but still need help. Don’t be afraid to ask for help.

Practice

Things you should practice in a car park:
• Emergency stops in an upright position
• Doing U turns at with steering at full lock – this is tricky
• Weaving between points
• Checking over your shoulder while moving
• Try low speed lock-ups to learn your brake's limits
• Practice riding at walking pace, to learn about clutch and throttle co-ordination, and feather braking
• Practice getting your feet up quickly, and doing all turns with your feet on the pegs
• Practice looking where you want to go. Look through the corner, not AT the corner. It is often referred to "leading with your chin". However this leads to “target fixation”
• Don't 'target fixate'. This means, you go where you look. So if there's a potential hazard, or something alarms you, don't stare at it, but instead look at the path you need to take in order to avoid the hazard / obstacle. Put up a couple of cones or bits of card in the car park and try dodging them, looking forward at the next clear space to drive. If you keep looking at one, you’ll turn your body and drive towards it without knowing, so keep looking at the gaps. This applies in traffic too.
• Practice riding in the rain, puddles and oil if you can find it on a carpark. Car parks are level and have plenty of puddles, unlike most roads. Try some grass and gravel too, and feel the difference it makes to braking and turning.
Confidence and practice equal skill

Finally

And we're all part of the biker brotherhood, even though we needle each other a lot sometimes... Sibling rivalry? Make friends with other bikers. Some of us are big, ugly and monosyllabic, but we're part of the same family, and sometimes understand what is going on. Don't be afraid to ask for help from us, cause if we can't help we'll point you towards someone who can.




Kudos to Honda, justsomeguy, Storm, Hitcher, Blakamin, Mattt, TonyB, XJ/FROSTY, moko, and Jim2 for helping out with this.

mattt
20th January 2005, 22:34
Yes indeed. After considerable discussion with the Kiwibiker motorbiker bikerboard... We the bikable bikers use the format TCLOCKW

Tires
Cables
Lights
Oil
Chassis (and chain)
Kickstand
Wheelie.

The bikers on the kiwibiker bikerboard feel it is essentially essential for a biker who is a member of kiwibiker to be able to perform this function whilst in motion with their respective bikes...... and stuff.

:thud: duh!

justsomeguy
20th January 2005, 22:39
Heyyy I just finished with Uni....... :brick: Now here's another document I need to study.........

thehollowmen
20th January 2005, 23:07
Heyyy I just finished with Uni....... :brick: Now here's another document I need to study.........

You shouldn't need to study it... I just want something helpful to show others so they don't trip down my path

thehollowmen
20th January 2005, 23:36
The bikers on the kiwibiker bikerboard feel it is essentially essential for a biker who is a member of kiwibiker to be able to perform this function whilst in motion with their respective bikes...... and stuff.

:thud: duh!

Right I'd better get practicing then :-)
I'll keep that in mind with the next revision:-P

justsomeguy
23rd January 2005, 01:39
This is what I have on my computer screen........

inlinefour
23rd January 2005, 06:18
They are a major problem when I'm out in the middle of no where. Solution is a tyre panda. I have had one at all times when riding my bike. It never fails to either get me home or to a garage. They can be used more than once per tyre and are not a problem when it comes to fixing the flattie as the tyre can be cleaned out. However if you use a tube then it'll probably need to be thrown away :crazy:

justsomeguy
23rd January 2005, 07:35
What is a tyre panda?

inlinefour
23rd January 2005, 08:58
What is a tyre panda?

Its a small aerosole can with a hose that connects to the valve of a tyre. It inflates the flattie with some sort of foam. Now I call it a panda only because (I think) they where the first brand on the market. They can be purchased st Autolines, Repco or in my instance at super cheap auto. Funny thing is that (touch wood) since I've carried one, I've never had a flattie on my current bike, but I suspect that will change with time (in fact I've not had a flattie at all with my current bike). So along with my trusty tool kit, I carry a tyre panda. Its great to be able to stop for another rider and get em running again.l If not I will abstain from my rule of no pilion and give em a ride to help. If we all take this stance then we should, in theory, be able to ride stress free as we'll do so knowing that help is out there :rolleyes: :bleh:

thehollowmen
23rd January 2005, 09:57
This is what I have on my computer screen........

That is a pretty neat idea. When I finish the final version, could you do another one for people to download if they want? I might also put that on one of my screens.
:2thumbsup good work

Hitcher
23rd January 2005, 12:29
Things to know for newbies?

The ground is hard and becomes proportionally harder with speed. Avoid it at all times.

Don't try to save money on tyres or brakes. Buy the best you can afford. Remind yourself that your life depends on these.

Don't try to save money on protective equipment. By what fits best and the best you can afford. Your life and wellbeing depends on this stuff.

Motorcycling isn't about going somewhere, it's about the ride. Enjoy it!

Make friends with other bikers. Some of us are big, ugly and monosyllabic, but once you get to know us...

MSTRS
23rd January 2005, 12:40
Things to know for newbies?


Some of us are big, ugly and monosyllabic, but once you get to know us...
.....we still are............
but we are still quite nice people

justsomeguy
23rd January 2005, 19:30
That is a pretty neat idea. When I finish the final version, could you do another one for people to download if they want? I might also put that on one of my screens.
:2thumbsup good work

No problems...... and you can also have whatever pics you want........ as long as it all makes sense when you look at it.

moko
24th January 2005, 01:53
Something I still do whenever I change my bike,can often make all the difference between an "off" or not.New bike or new rider,find an empty car park and get to know your bike.Get used to your brakes,when you`re confident try a few low-speed lock-ups,and I mean low-speed,so you learn their limits.Riding slowly will teach you as much about your bike as thrashing it will,see how slowly you can ride,it`ll teach you loads about clutch-control and balance,a good rider can go at walking pace without wobbling around.Do loads of feet-up u-turns,figure 8`s e.t.c.,again you`ll learn a lot about throttle/clutch co-ordination.This stuff might sound boring but in an extreme situation knowing exactly how far you can haul the anchors on before it locks and spits you off is invaluable.Riding a bike safely is very much a case of learning to walk before you run.Dont take risks,ever,dont try to impress or race anyone unless you`re totally confident or it`ll end in tears,and isn`t a great idea in the first place.The more you know about your bike the more comfortable and confident you will feel,when you`re past the car-park stage try to get out with sensible experienced riders and follow them,ask them why they take the lines they do,ask them what they`re looking for,pick their brains.Whatever you do never ride outside of your personal limits,takes a lot of self-control sometimes particularly in a group.Dont ever forget that biking is dangerous,take things for granted and it`ll end in tears.

justsomeguy
24th January 2005, 06:56
Things you should practice in a car park:
• Emergency stops in an upright position
• Doing U turns at with steering at full lock – this is tricky
• Weaving between points
• Checking over your shoulder while moving


FROM MOKO:

Practice some low speed (walking pace) lock-ups to learn your brake's limits
Practice riding at walking pace, to learn about clutch and throttle co-ordination, it is also good rush-hour traffic practice.
Basically try and sit your own basic handling test a few times over

FROSTY
24th January 2005, 07:27
a little known sectret here. The US army trained chimps to ride a bike at pase in a straight line in perfect conditions.
My point here being that the best thing you can do is practice practice and more practice.
Keep in mind the front brake will be more effective by far than the rear
tyres dont work well when theyre cold
Smooth riding will make the bike seem so much nicer to handle
avoid white painted lines in the wet if you can -they be slippery.
DONT BE AFRAID TO ASK QUESTIONS -NO MATTER HOW STUPID.
I remember as a pimply faced 14 year old asking what the difference was between a 4 stroke and a 2 stroke bike. The salesman was patient enough to explain it to me .

TonyB
24th January 2005, 07:28
COUNTERSTEERING- (if I hadn't read about it the night before I wouldn't have gotten my first road bike -RZ250- around the first corner..)
Look as far ahead as you can
Apex late- stay out wide longer than you would in a car
Keep yer head on your side of the centre line on right handers
If something pulls/walks out in front of you DO NOT LOOK AT IT, look for a way around it
If see an animal on the side of the road, don't look at it- keep it in your perhipheral vision and look for it's freinds (personal experience here- golden lab on side of road on rainy night, stared at dog till it didn't have time to run in front of me, looked foward again and saw it's dark coloured freind standing right infront of me :shit: )
If you lock the front brakes, don't freeze just let go of them again (one of my major riding faults, tied in with example above :o )
If you think you are going into a corner too fast and the road is dry, and your tyres are warm and in good nick, and your pegs aren't on the ground then you should be fine...
Allways keep your hands and arms loose- especially when riding in high winds

Funny how I "know" all of this, but then seem to forget all the time...

inlinefour
24th January 2005, 07:38
If your going to have an accident and you can.
Get away from the bike and whatever it will hit, if possible. The road hurts much less than a solid ogject that will slow your velocity quickly. I've hit a cow on a farm bike, I launched myself off it, flew superman style for a bit, then landed in a big puddle of mud and shit. I was very young then and was also doing motorcross. The bike was spare parts only, the cow was put down and apart from graises all I needed was a bloody good shower :wacko:

justsomeguy
24th January 2005, 07:42
One of the problems I have is when the corner "tightens" mid-corner or the radius of the turn suddenly decreases, I have a bit of a problem (lack of experience) in tightening my line, and brake to slow my self down which is not too scary while turning right, as if I go wide I go towards the pavements and pray that I can ride it out, but when the corner curves to the left it is infinitely more frightening as if you overcook it and can't follow the bend you go straight into THE :sweatdropOPP0SITE:sweatdrop LANE

TonyB
24th January 2005, 07:53
One of the problems I have is when the corner "tightens" mid-corner or the radius of the turn suddenly decreases, I have a bit of a problem (lack of experience) in tightening my line, and brake to slow my self down which is not too scary while turning right, as if I go wide I go towards the pavements and pray that I can ride it out, but when the corner curves to the left it is infinitely more frightening as if you overcook it and can't follow the bend you go straight into THE :sweatdropOPP0SITE:sweatdrop LANE
I still get caught out by decreasing radius turns. That's the idea behind apexing late/ staying out wide longer- you have a better chance of seeing whats going to happen next, wether it be a tightening line or a cow. If I start getting worried and allow the 'survival reactions' to take over, I nearly always find myself hugging the inside line with my eyes looking only a few metres infont of the bike :Oops: That's one of the many things that makes riding so cool- you are constantly battling your survival reactions- your natural reaction is nearly always to do the wrong thing, you have to overcome that and make yourself use the correct technique.

vifferman
24th January 2005, 08:45
Good effort, Dude. :niceone:

A couple of things to add: You go where you look.
This has a couple of important implications:

Look where you want to go. Look through the corner, not AT the corner. It can also be termed "leading with your chin".
Don't 'target fixate'. This means, you go where you look. So if there's a potential hazard, or something alarms you, don't stare at it, but instead look at the path you need to take in order to avoid the hazard / obstacle.
So say you think you're going too fast for a corner (I say "think", because in most cases, except for an inexperienced racer, your bike can usually go around a corner faster than you think you can). The inexperienced rider will go, "Crap!! I'm going too fast!" then look at the corner itself, brake, the bike will stand up and end up going where you are looking (or crash, if you've braked hard and lost tyre grip).
The experienced rider will look throught the corner, and won't even think about whether it's too tight or not. If the corner is tighter than expected, he/she will know that feeding in more throttle will cause the bike to tip in more, and this will also balance the suspension for better grip.

You see a pothole in the road, or a piece that's fallen off a HoggleyDoggley, and stare at it. You end up running over it. Instead, look next to the obstacle, where you want to go. This also helps if you have practiced emergency swerving and braking, which you can do by riding round imaginary obstacles, or dark patches on the road, or bits of harmless debris, cowpats or whatever. Practice helps a lot, because unlike a car, where you turn the direction you want to go in order to swerve, on a bike you have to nudge/pull the bars in the opposite direction to swerve, which is counter-intuitive. So you need to practice so you will do it automatically without thinking.

Last thing: practice riding on less than perfect surfaces, such as gravel, grass, mud, etc. so that when you have no choice, you are not fazed by having to do so. Practice slow-speed turns, braking, accelerating, etc. Get to know how the bike behaves and feels on different surfaces.

Blakamin
24th January 2005, 09:31
fuggit.... have read this thread 3 times now over the last whenever.. :shutup: can we PLEASE learn to spell TYRES :eek5: :brick:


I feel better now :done:

Storm
24th January 2005, 09:54
Always good to see a productive rant. Why are you not calming yourself with a quick dose of the red rocket? I'm sure that alway makes you a sane rational individual :ride: :yeah:

TonyB
24th January 2005, 09:54
fuggit.... have read this thread 3 times now over the last whenever.. :shutup: can we PLEASE learn to spell TYRES :eek5: :brick:


I feel better now :done:
:shifty:
One more thing- never ride when tyred. I have 2 kids and looking after them really tyres me out. Really reduces your concentration. :sleep:


:shifty:

inlinefour
24th January 2005, 09:59
Which was what caught me out at 15 years of age. I thought I was bullet proof on my RD and just keep riding hard in the wet conditions. I found out the hard way that after a period of good weather all the slippery shite gets absorbed into the road. Alas when it starts to get wet thats same shit comes back up to the surface (my Uncle was the head of the Minisrty of jerks, um Works, who explained that to me). Anyway I was riding around a certian 35km courner out at Urenui at slightly over 100km/h and the frount wheel pissed off in its own direction and left me skidding along the road. :crazy:

Blakamin
24th January 2005, 10:09
Why are you not calming yourself with a quick dose of the red rocket? I'm sure that alway makes you a sane rational individual :ride: :yeah:
coz its raining and there's diesel on pie-cock... alright in the dry, but I aint playin on it in the wet...... everywhere else around here sucks on long-weekends... too many morons on the road :angry2: :confused2 :pinch:

thehollowmen
24th January 2005, 11:19
fuggit.... have read this thread 3 times now over the last whenever.. :shutup: can we PLEASE learn to spell TYRES :eek5: :brick:


I feel better now :done:

I tried that, but NZ dictionary in word keeps autocorrecting it to tires
I'll fix it manually, and yes I prefer UK English.

scumdog
24th January 2005, 12:35
After about 40 quadjillion kms of riding I have only recently learned an Important Truth: ALWAY look at where you want to go- DON'T look at the kerb/centre-line/pothole to see how close you are going to end up to them!

Just focus on where you want to exit the corner, the above mentioned items aren't going to move or go anywhere so just leave them in your subconscious.

Even C.B. noticed how much smoother my cornering was when I got into looking 'way ahead into the corner.

Look as far ahead as you can, even if it is 80 -100 metres or more, the 20-30 mtres on front is to be ignored 'cause you won't be able to do stuff all if anything changes inside that distance on the open road.

justsomeguy
24th January 2005, 14:09
Speaking of looking ahead....

One should make it a habit to look as far ahead as possible.....

the golden rule is to follow the dissappearing horizon (furthest point you can see along the road) with your eyes and the rest of you will follow.

Many professionals (racers, etc) are trained to use the trees, poles, etc to guesstimate the curve of the road before they can actually see it.

justsomeguy
24th January 2005, 14:11
Look as far ahead as you can, even if it is 80 -100 metres or more, the 20-30 mtres on front is to be ignored 'cause you won't be able to do stuff all if anything changes inside that distance on the open road.

Ahh!!! Thats why. Take note people :doobey: may save your face and fairings :doobey:

TonyB
24th January 2005, 15:39
Just remembered another one: using the vanishing point in a corner- as you are going around a corner, watch the point where the two sides of the road converge and the road disapears. If this point is staying the same distance away from you the corner has a constant radius- keep a constant speed. If it's moving towards you the corner is tightening up- think about scrubbing off some speed. If its moving away the corner is opening up- open the taps and go. :scooter:

justsomeguy
25th January 2005, 10:26
Alright.


Document finished.

Will start working on smaller bit that could be used as a wallpaper/ checklist
Big thanks to everyone who contributed with the biggest thanks going out thehollowmen

This document is not exhaustive in any sense, but it does point the new rider in the correct direction and gives him or her enough material to begin biking.

EDIT: Deleted draft copy as I have now added the newer version in a more recent post.

FROSTY
25th January 2005, 11:16
A couple of things came up in discussion last night -I would definitely ammend this document mate.
Braking. --
Of course your tyres have tread and are propperly inflated, You have propper riding gear on. etc etc-The tyres must be warmed up
What you need is a straight / flat piece of tarmac to practice on.
Mark a spot you want to stop by --maybee a lampost or maybee just mark a spot in chalk
Whatever spot ya choose make 100% sure that no matter what you will stop without hitting something (even potentially)
First of all get up to 50km/h and then when you think is the right time use both brakes and pull to a stop on the mark you chose.
Easy wasn't it ??. Now what you want to do is brake A LITTLE harder and a little later --OOPs -did ya get a little squeak from the front tyre?
This time try pulling the front brakes on a little bit then pull em on as hard as you are comfortable with.
WOW --You stopped short of the mark diddn't you.
What you did was load up the front suspension and tyre a lil bit before you actually braked hard.
Now we just keep practicing-- a little bit harder and a little bit later -Youll find the back brake will get less and less effective and the front will get more and more effetive as you brake harder.
Now most important--You WILL stuff it up -thats why you are practicing.
You will overrun the mark -you may even have a squeak/skreech out of the tyres -
Emphasis is on comfort zone here so shorten your braking distance down in easy steps
Cornering.
The same idea really applies here ---Find a stretch of tarmack with maybee 8 corners in it -preferably with easy turn around zones either end.
Ride these 8 corners at 1/2 your normal riding pace-noteing any diesel/gravel etc to watch out for.
the idea is to get round in a smooth arc using constant throttle or accelerating out of the corner.
So first corner-you are barreling along -You will brake -using the knowledge of your brakes you already have .
You will give yourself the widest possible line round that corner you can.
Wide into a corner will mean tight out of a corner-it gives you so many options.
so a left hand corner you are almost on the center line aiming for the left side of the road -youll come out of the corner still to the left with half your lane to play with. the reverse applies to a right hander
Looking at the exit of the corner we select out line and lean in
What we want to acheive initially is a constant throttle round the corner and a smooth sweeping motion -rather than a series of bites.
Again--You WILL stuff it up but you are not out to prove anything to anyone.You want to be a smoother more consistant rider.
I personally put little emphasis on how far you lean over on the tyre.
But for this exersize just mark a line from side to side of your tyres.
Youll be amased how much further you will lean the bike once you have mastered smooth cornering.
Speed is definitely NOT an issue here so ride at a comfortable pace

justsomeguy
25th January 2005, 11:49
I did include the bit about braking Frosty, but I seem to missed quite a few details.

I have added your notes on Braking and Cornering (including selecting lines)

Can someone put up some easy to understand info on countersteering next??

justsomeguy
25th January 2005, 11:51
The latest version of the draft:

Need some easy to understand info on countersteering next :

scooterboy
25th January 2005, 20:54
thanks you guys and girls am thinking of getting my first bike soon , learned afew things , most impotant i think is too have fun as little as posible (safety first) oyeah US spellcheck! if you look in the tool box theirs an english option
:sweatdrop

Rainbow Wizard
26th January 2005, 18:00
Braking. Mark a spot you want to stop by --maybe a lampost or maybe just mark a spot in chalk and make 100% sure that no matter what you will stop without hitting something (even potentially) etc.

I was going to post a new thread "Do I have to amputate my right leg/foot in order to stop braking le Voxan too hard on the rear?" but I did a search on the topic first (will that get me another merit point or two?) so as to not unnecessarily clutter the message boards. And yay, there it is, and only a day old too. Such synergy.

All very good advice XJ/Frosty, but I have just adjusted my mechanicals to help achieve the desired effect:
1) Foot brake now adjusted LOW so as to be less accessible and therefore encourage more front wheel braking (at least by default).
2) Front brake lever now modified to totally eliminate the free play and bring the lever a little closer to the handlebars.

On first test I now find I can front brake with one finger. Less freeplay also means less distance travelled before the brake forces a drop in speed. At 120k you travel more than 8 metres in a quarter of a second, and if any lever lag exists you WILL be compromised.

I'm sure looking forward to the Merkel training day on 14th Feb at Taupo. Any of you KB'ers want to add to the 12 to 18 of us intending to be there. Warning, you could end up being relieved of up to $250 for the privelege but word is it's well worth the money.

PM me if you want further info as I'm the organiser.