MNZ announces Motards back in F3!

[Nicksta]

News
SUPER MOTARD RIDING STYLE

Regarding all classes and Super Motard riding style.
MNZ road-race commissioner Paul Stewart thanks all the people who took the time to put forward constructive comments regards the riding style of the Super Motards.

Given the various opinions put forward for consideration of those that are for and those that are against the two class's racing against each other, it is clear that there is a genuine desire by the Super Motard riders to be included within the structure of what would be considered an accepted road race style.

Given that there was a remit presented to the commission some two years ago by concerned riders of F3 about the style of some the SM riders a safety rule was put in place excluding SM from the F3 class racing.

However following the correspondence over the last two months regards this subject it is the determination of the commission that there is to be a one year (maximum) trial period to gauge the safe practice of these class’s racing against each other with some exceptions.

If during this period (1 year trial) of mixed class racing the Super Motard riders cannot adapt to the traditional style of racing then Super Motards will be excluded from all class’s, except their own class of racing.

Therefore it is incumbent of Super Motard riders to self govern themselves, as I am sure we would all like to see this exercise succeed.

The issues are.
The practice of sliding the rear wheel out on the entry into corners, leading with the inside leg off the foot peg (i.e. similar to a moto Cross style), and backing into corners in an exaggerated manner.

All class’s and Super Motards

In race meetings where there are F3/ BEARS class races and also Super Motard class races then the genuine F3/ Bears bikes will have first call on the grid positions for the F3 races.

Any grid positions that are left vacant can be filled on a first entered (by post date of entry form to meeting) on the grid up to the maximum numbers on the grid as set by the club in the sub regs by Super Motard class bikes.

Remembering Super Motards would have their own races and that a true F3/ BEARS cannot race in Super Motard races.

It is the clubs discretion as to the class structure of their meeting.
When applying for a permit the club must consider the circuit suitable as to whether F3/BEARS and Super Motards can compete together where the circuit lends its design to using traditional road racing styles.

In the case where a circuit is suited to Super Motards only (i.e. Wyndham Burt Munroe meeting) then the permit must indicate so that MNZ will sign off the permit on the information provided as to the suitability of F3 and SM racing together.

Riding Style.
In races where F3/BEARS and Super Motard are permitted to race together a traditional road race style ONLY MUST be used.

Riders who are considered not to be riding during practice or racing within the intent of the traditional road race style the rider will be spoken to by the steward in the first instance.

In the circumstances where it is considered dangerous to riders the offending rider/s will be shown the black flag by an official

Rule 6-19 to be observed by officials, Individual rider to stop and retire from the course upon completion of that lap. The rider’s number must be shown on a board at the same point as the black flag is displayed.

If the rider/s continue to ignore the safety of themselves or fellow riders they may be barred from competing in the remainder of that meeting this infringement to be recorded in the riders log book.

Regards
Paul Stewart
Road Race Commissioner.

[Skunk]

Sounds good to me. I don't race either class though.

[AlBundy]

Very interesting...

I can see a boom in motard sales and conversions...

[Chrislost]

does this mean if a sports bike backs in, it is now against the rules?

[Sketchy_Racer]

cool im going to cross enter my 250 into supermotard now cause they get to cross enter into the formula classes, I should be allowed to cross enter into thier class surely?

[WarrenW]

Probably the intention will be to combine F3 and SM together in one race only at club level and drop the SM seperate races, should be good for all involved as it will shorten up the roster and give more track time to all.

Yes 2 feet on the footpegs. Exaggerated backing in not allowed (poor Jay L!) although to be fair how many 400's or 65o's do you see going sideways into corners?

And yes they have to ride like road bikes. Hard to do when you sit in a beg position. But hey if they want to be included the SM riders will need to adapt, just like the nF3 guys did to 650's.

[Skunk]

does this mean if a sports bike backs in, it is now against the rules?

are they saying that 2 feet must be on the pegs?
are they saying no backing it in?
are they saying that motards must ride like road bikes in the f3 races?
?I thought they made it very clear.


cool im going to cross enter my 250 into supermotard now cause they get to cross enter into the formula classes, I should be allowed to cross enter into thier class surely?Different rules.

[Sketchy_Racer]

That would be Ironic for them if now that they get access to F3 the clubs cut off their class completely. Then they'll bitch they want their class back...

Where can I find the rules for motards?

[Ivan]

Ok then if they put there foot out in front of me can I run it over?

[Quasievil]

Ok then if they put there foot out in front of me can I run it over?

Yeah, and after the race it will be planted up your botty hole.

Fact is the foot is no further out that your knee is. So I can kick a knee out of my way if needed.............common its not that bad sheeeesh

I think also the foot comes out due to the extreme lean angles a motard can go to, there is no room for your foot on the peg at some angles hence you stick it out the front by the wheel, it DOESNT come out at right angles.

For me its great, I never had a problem racing a SV or GSXR in F3 against motards, I think a few riders just think its wrong that a Motard can whip a sportsbike arse (in some situations) so they get all jumpy about it. I say get over it and move over we are coming to a class near you !!

I can now enter Motards, F3 and Bears great for me !

[Skunk]

I get the feeling some of you saw the title and didn't bother reading the rule change.

Try reading or you will be Black Flagged :lol:

[Nasty]

Also pays to check with your clubs for what rules are applied for this season if their regs are already out.

[Sparky Bills]

Should be interesting....

[Ivan]

Yeah, and after the race it will be planted up your botty hole.

Fact is the foot is no further out that your knee is. So I can kick a knee out of my way if needed.............common its not that bad sheeeesh

I think also the foot comes out due to the extreme lean angles a motard can go to, there is no room for your foot on the peg at some angles hence you stick it out the front by the wheel, it DOESNT come out at right angles.

For me its great, I never had a problem racing a SV or GSXR in F3 against motards, I think a few riders just think its wrong that a Motard can whip a sportsbike arse (in some situations) so they get all jumpy about it. I say get over it and move over we are coming to a class near you !!

I can now enter Motards, F3 and Bears great for me !


Didnt bother me I forgot to put a smiley on it I wernt being serious was a bit of tongue in cheek momment.
:calm::beer:

[roadracingoldfart]

I think its great .
If a Motard is out in qualifying and there is a bunch of road based bikes behind that are slower then the motard has to fuck of and join his own class to make room for the slower rider. There is only 35 bikes per class and the field is full now, so no room for a cross entered motard.
Yay, finally its a way to rid the F3 class of motards once and for all.
They have there own class and road based bikes are not allowed into there class , why is it a one way street if the bikes are so even / simalar ?.

The only real sad bit is this .... if a motard rider is allowed to cross enter into the F3 class and there is no room for him in the grid after qualifying then is there a refund possible under the rules (yeah rite) or is it just another fuck up by MNZ for the local clubs to deal with ?? It will be considered the same as "failing to qualify" so refunds are not considered.

Another case of MNZ trying to satisfy everybody without sorting it properly.

PS; If you are a motard rider and dont like what i state , tuff , sorry.

Paul.

[Toast]

Must ride 'road race style'...man I can't wait to see the punchups when someone disagrees with getting black flagged for 'riding motard style'...not to mention the protests when someone on a roadbike doesn't like getting being beaten by a motard and claims he cheated 'cos he slid the rear wheel...with the whole thing being open to interpretation like that I don't think it will work.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

good to see the 'tards back with the roadies. Management of this group is at the discretion of the even organisers tho?! now that could be interesting!!

[Billy]

I think its great .
If a Motard is out in qualifying and there is a bunch of road based bikes behind that are slower then the motard has to fuck of and join his own class to make room for the slower rider. There is only 35 bikes per class and the field is full now, so no room for a cross entered motard.
Yay, finally its a way to rid the F3 class of motards once and for all.
They have there own class and road based bikes are not allowed into there class , why is it a one way street if the bikes are so even / simalar ?.

The only real sad bit is this .... if a motard rider is allowed to cross enter into the F3 class and there is no room for him in the grid after qualifying then is there a refund possible under the rules (yeah rite) or is it just another fuck up by MNZ for the local clubs to deal with ?? It will be considered the same as "failing to qualify" so refunds are not considered.

Another case of MNZ trying to satisfy everybody without sorting it properly.

PS; If you are a motard rider and dont like what i state , tuff , sorry.

Paul.

Fully agree,Why would you trial something that was proved to be too dangerous before and in a class thats already oversubscribed.

[Tony.OK]

There is only 35 bikes per class and the field is full now, so no room for a cross entered motard.


Yep, can't see much changing except qualifying. What happens if there are 40 entered and present F3 racers? Will the motards even need to go out during qualifying?
Not that it affects me but it sounds like a rule adopted just to appease some people, and with current feild numbers never coming into effect.

[Shaun]

Yep, can't see much changing except qualifying. What happens if there are 40 entered and present F3 racers? Will the motards even need to go out during qualifying?
Not that it affects me but it sounds like a rule adopted just to appease some people, and with current feild numbers never coming into effect.





MOtards

DAM puddle jumpers in disquise, GET back to the dirt, OR BUY A ROAD RACE BIKE

[brads]

You should try one Shaun :niceone:

[scott411]

MOtards

DAM puddle jumpers in disquise, GET back to the dirt, OR BUY A ROAD RACE BIKE

yes Shaun, go away motard riders, some people don't seem to like having to many people at road races anyway,


seriously tho,

i think at the vic series where F3 is full the motards should stick to their own class, however in some race meetings where F3 was not as full and motards where all but non existant it seemed stupid to have to run two events for them, i think its good that the organisers now have more power over the way they run their meetings, sometimes one rule does not fit all meetings,

[GaZBur]

Actually now the rules have changed I don't think it will make a difference at the ground level down here anymore. Motorcycling Cantebury who are running the Levels Winter series run combined classes as Senior, Junior(including F3), and a seperate Motard class. The numbers are about right the way they have it at the moment so I expect there really is not much chance of getting them to allow a bunch of Motards to run off the back of the Junior grid.
There are plenty of Motard bikes now to ensure that class is not canned due to lack of numbers. Even this year some entry forms for racing advertise a Motard class PROVIDING THERE ARE SUFFICIENT NUMBERS, which seems to mean over 6. If there are ever less than 6 motards it would be good to be able to run off the back of F3 but seriously I don't think that will ever happen down here now. In fact there are 1 or 2 new bikes turning up to every meeting so it's possible eventually numbers could grow to the level the field needs to be split S1 and S2.
If however there is a reduction in F3 numbers then I will be asking to go off the back of the grid to get more track experience.

EDIT: While I was writing my speel scott411 posted - so what he says!

[Nicksta]

I think the main reason they were taken out of the road bike classes was the difference in riding styles and lines, the inability to hold a line in a corner makes it damn hard to overtake a motard round the outside without the fear of them sliding out and taking you out. I witnessed this infront of me before the rule came in place.
The sad part is, that we voted previously to exclude them from F3, but MNZ asked for submissions on the exclusion and no one really replied to support the exclusion, so they are now trialing including them again.

Please people, if you dont want to have them in your formula class, please email or write to MNZ and let them know your concerns! thats why we have MNZ, to make rules and regulations to make our sport safer and more fair and fun.

On another note, now that motards have their own class, apart from getting more track time, why would they enter a road race class anyway? especially of they can only get a starting spot if there is no road racer that wants it!

[roogazza]

Glen Williams will be shaking in his boots !!! (ha ha Glen )
Seriously who do they bother ?????

Just the modern generation I suspect ! G.

[Quasievil]

I think the main reason they were taken out of the road bike classes was the difference in riding styles and lines, the inability to hold a line in a corner makes it damn hard to overtake a motard round the outside without the fear of them sliding out and taking you out.

Not sure about that, I reckon my motard is more stable in a corner than a sportsbike, less weight = less forces to push you out and all that stuff.

Youre right though with a F3 class and a Motard class I doubt I would run in F3 .................they to slow anyway :shutup:

[svr]

I think the main reason they were taken out of the road bike classes was the difference in riding styles and lines, the inability to hold a line in a corner makes it damn hard to overtake a motard round the outside without the fear of them sliding out and taking you out. I witnessed this infront of me before the rule came in place.
The sad part is, that we voted previously to exclude them from F3, but MNZ asked for submissions on the exclusion and no one really replied to support the exclusion, so they are now trialing including them again.

Please people, if you dont want to have them in your formula class, please email or write to MNZ and let them know your concerns! thats why we have MNZ, to make rules and regulations to make our sport safer and more fair and fun.

On another note, now that motards have their own class, apart from getting more track time, why would they enter a road race class anyway? especially of they can only get a starting spot if there is no road racer that wants it!

1. I didn't make a submission about Motards because I thought it had nothing to do with me (F3). Suprise, and wrong again!

2. Telling Motards to ride in a `roadrace' style is a joke. Different bikes have different styles. Motards are no problem in their own class, and are entertaining for the general public, but a total frustration for people on roadrace bikes racing with / trying to pass / getting centerpunched by, etc. said motarder.
Hello random lines, feet to run over, handlebars in the throat, finding bikes with 20ks less corner speed parked at the apex (and no way past), fast starting, crazy block passes in the first corner, slow laps holding up roadrace bikes,... Roadracing is dangerous enough with everyone headed roughly in the same direction and doing roughly the same thing... To really spice it up maybe we could throw quads in there and race on a figure 8 track?

3. So the class will be a strange hybrid of F3, ProTwins and now Motards. What a shambles:Oi:

[Ivan]

1. I didn't make a submission about Motards because I thought it had nothing to do with me (F3). Suprise, and wrong again!

2. Telling Motards to ride in a `roadrace' style is a joke. Different bikes have different styles. Motards are no problem in their own class, and are entertaining for the general public, but a total frustration for people on roadrace bikes racing with / trying to pass / getting centerpunched by, etc. said motarder.
Hello random lines, feet to run over, handlebars in the throat, finding bikes with 20ks less corner speed parked at the apex (and no way past), fast starting, crazy block passes in the first corner, slow laps holding up roadrace bikes,... Roadracing is dangerous enough with everyone headed roughly in the same direction and doing roughly the same thing... To really spice it up maybe we could throw quads in there and race on a figure 8 track?

3. So the class will be a strange hybrid of F3, ProTwins and now Motards. What a shambles:Oi:

Agree fully,

Motards aregreat to watch if you like them..... In there own class as they all dothe same thing, Road bikes all do the same thing put the 2 together we get2 different styles not so much knee down foot out difference in lines etc, you end up with a bike with shit loads of outa corner squirt butthen hard as **** to pass, I have raced against them before yes.

I can tell you to a handle bar leaning on you during a race aint fun,

What happened to all bikes with handle bars blah blah rule didnt affect me so dont remember it dont own a motard dont race one dont intend to.

Screw the motard Idea do that dude inF3 CRF450 converted to a road race bike now that thing is wicked

[WarrenW]

Hey if they reckon they are that fast, put the SM lot in with the superbikes, at least they back the bikes into the corners, get out of corners at the same rate.
Keep them in their own class or allow us to cross enter into theirs.

[slowpoke]

1. I didn't make a submission about Motards because I thought it had nothing to do with me (F3). Suprise, and wrong again!

2. Telling Motards to ride in a `roadrace' style is a joke. Different bikes have different styles. Motards are no problem in their own class, and are entertaining for the general public, but a total frustration for people on roadrace bikes racing with / trying to pass / getting centerpunched by, etc. said motarder.
Hello random lines, feet to run over, handlebars in the throat, finding bikes with 20ks less corner speed parked at the apex (and no way past), fast starting, crazy block passes in the first corner, slow laps holding up roadrace bikes,... Roadracing is dangerous enough with everyone headed roughly in the same direction and doing roughly the same thing... To really spice it up maybe we could throw quads in there and race on a figure 8 track?

3. So the class will be a strange hybrid of F3, ProTwins and now Motards. What a shambles:Oi:

Have another read of the new guideline. This is exactly what the new guideline is addressing: that everyone will now be expected to do the same thing i.e. display the appropriate road racing style with no foot out, arse out, park it in the corner type high jinks.
If they are unable to restrain themselves then it will be game over for them, simple as that. As they will now be cornering in the "classic" road race style (cue swan lake music) there will be absolutely no excuse if a roadracer is caught behind them, they are simply being beaten by a better rider/machine combination.
What's the problem with the racing against different bikes? Should the field be regulated to be just 4 cylinder machines? Or no 2 strokes? Should we have stopped Crosby on his Kawasaki superbike competing against the Grand Prix machines? Should we not have allowed the 2 stroke 500's to compete against the MotoGP bikes in the transition years?
This is F3, mate, NZ's only class that encourages lateral thinking and I think it's entirely appropriate that any machine meeting the technical requirement is allowed to compete. If the rider (any rider for that manner) then chooses to ride in a dangerous manner, as laid out in the new guidelines, then consequences will occur. Simple.

[Nicksta]

everyone here has valid points....
a worry i have is that it is left to the club/organisers to police the "road style" does this mean there will be racers protesting other racers? Flag marshalls monitoring the motards? or the rider's rep being inundated with racers complaining and how will it be judged/penalised?
the only other worry is that if they don't stick to the riding style I fear the consequences will be costly to other riders' bikes and bodies. I'd hate to see an accident where someone gets hurt because someone didnt ride in the right "style"... riding habits are sometimes hard to change.... can a motard rider really go from a motard race straight into an F3 race and remember to not back it in and put their foot out??

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

Hello random lines, feet to run over, handlebars in the throat, finding bikes with 20ks less corner speed parked at the apex (and no way past), fast starting, crazy block passes in the first corner, slow laps holding up roadrace bikes

hell, sounds great.....to watch!! will leave the racing to you crazy cats, good luck, you will need plenty!

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

everyone here has valid points....
a worry i have is that it is left to the club/organisers to police the "road style" does this mean there will be racers protesting other racers? Flag marshalls monitoring the motards? or the rider's rep being inundated with racers complaining and how will it be judged/penalised?
the only other worry is that if they don't stick to the riding style I fear the consequences will be costly to other riders' bikes and bodies. I'd hate to see an accident where someone gets hurt because someone didnt ride in the right "style"... riding habits are sometimes hard to change.... can a motard rider really go from a motard race straight into an F3 race and remember to not back it in and put their foot out??

MNZ dont care! offroad membership takes up 90% (correct me if wrong) of all MNZ membership. MNZ want a feederclass to get those 'muddies interested in road racing, racing in a class with little build up costs for reasons of getting more income for the coffa's (to be reinvested in offroad events, not the NZ road race champs heavens forebid) and at the cost of the F3 class and headache of the clubs running club events. as if their job wasnt hard enough to start with!

Poor F3 would have a complex. First it was too old, so modern pro-twin racers were let in, now its not exciting enough, so needs some argy bargy and carnage! Whats next


...now, need to find a motard

[Quasievil]

Im not defending Motards here (only just brought one) but people GET OVER THE FOOT OUT Thing !! a motarders foot isnt out at right angles its out infront of the peg, no further out than a sportsbikers knee.
so how about sportsbike racers keep there knee in and for that matter the elbows

lastly, very few motarders back it in anyway

some of you are being a bit bloody precious:2guns:

[GaZBur]

...lastly, very few motarders back it in anyway

some of you are being a bit bloody precious:2guns:

That is correct. As i said in my submission to MNZ I raced at the Burt Munroe last year. At Teretonga a few Motarders tried the foot out approach on a couple of corners for about 2 laps and stopped when they found everyone else whipping by on the outside. We would have been safe racing with F3 as we were all taking road racing lines and keeping the foot on the peg. The next day at Wyndham was totally different, due to right angle corners short straights and a dodgy surface there was lots of sideways action and mixing classes would have been carnage. I have ridden alongside sportsbikes at track days and had not problems with conflicting stye as there isn't any conflict on an open race circuit.

[Deano]

Youre right though with a F3 class and a Motard class I doubt I would run in F3 .................they to slow anyway :shutup:

Bring it big boy !! ;)

[GSVR]

I think the way the Victoria Club includes motards into the meetings is the most sensible way. Its unfortunate they don't have another class to cross enter into.

The motards are not an issue with the faster riders because their laptimes and straightline speed are no match for a well ridden and sorted F3 bike.

Where there is an issue is on small circuits with short straights e.g Old Taupo track, New Taupo Short circuit, Wanganui. There are some very good Motard riders and you end up with a situation like many of you may have experienced at trackdays where you catch a bike that is way faster than you down the straights but is holding you up round the corners. So every time you make a pass it is lost down the next straight and you have to make the pass again.

This is what happens to a motard rider who is has faster laptimes but is slower down the straights. Its not so bad at trackdays but in a race situation when several bikes are involved its a recipe for accidents. Great for spectators and battles can be good fun too. When you get a motard and a F3 bike that are doing the same laptimes but making the speed in different areas after the lead has changed several times the rider (mainly the motard rider who is getting blown off down the straight) starts to get more and more frustrated and starts making riskier passes. Add this to traffic catching up due to the baulking in corners and the situation gets worse. This combined with very different cornering techniques as well.

Motards are great but like motorcross require a more aggressive physical style. The bikes are made to crash well so riders are not as concerned about dropping them as if they do theres seldom much damage. A fully faired F3 bike gets dropped and theres ussually a bit of work to repair it.

Thats basically the issue as I see it. The arguement has been done to death on here. Whatever the rules are people should abide by them. I personally believe there are bigger issues in F3 and ProTwin but as I'm no longer riding think they are the concerns of the people that are active participants.

What is good is to see new people out there giving it a go and doing well.


Glen Williams will be shaking in his boots !!! (ha ha Glen )
Seriously who do they bother ?????

Just the modern generation I suspect ! G.

At club level only time GW ever gets to see a bike in F3 is when he laps them so he's highly unlikely to ever get into a battle with a motard. Starting from 1 on the grid and winning every race must be quite lonely. Atleast when he decides to do an F2 race he gets some action.

[slowpoke]

:Pokey:
Bring it big boy !! ;)


That thing is a KTM anyway isn't it Deano, so it's just like racing like?:Pokey: (keep that foot on the peg fella!)

Besides, Quasi isn't "big"....he's just short for his weight....

[svr]

I think the way the Victoria Club includes motards into the meetings is the most sensible way. Its unfortunate they don't have another class to cross enter into.

The motards are not an issue with the faster riders because their laptimes and straightline speed are no match for a well ridden and sorted F3 bike.

Where there is an issue is on small circuits with short straights e.g Old Taupo track, New Taupo Short circuit, Wanganui. There are some very good Motard riders and you end up with a situation like many of you may have experienced at trackdays where you catch a bike that is way faster than you down the straights but is holding you up round the corners. So every time you make a pass it is lost down the next straight and you have to make the pass again.

This is what happens to a motard rider who is has faster laptimes but is slower down the straights. Its not so bad at trackdays but in a race situation when several bikes are involved its a recipe for accidents. Great for spectators and battles can be good fun too. When you get a motard and a F3 bike that are doing the same laptimes but making the speed in different areas after the lead has changed several times the rider (mainly the motard rider who is getting blown off down the straight) starts to get more and more frustrated and starts making riskier passes. Add this to traffic catching up due to the baulking in corners and the situation gets worse. This combined with very different cornering techniques as well.

Motards are great but like motorcross require a more aggressive physical style. The bikes are made to crash well so riders are not as concerned about dropping them as if they do theres seldom much damage. A fully faired F3 bike gets dropped and theres ussually a bit of work to repair it.

Thats basically the issue as I see it. The arguement has been done to death on here. Whatever the rules are people should abide by them. I personally believe there are bigger issues in F3 and ProTwin but as I'm no longer riding think they are the concerns of the people that are active participants.

What is good is to see new people out there giving it a go and doing well.



At club level only time GW ever gets to see a bike in F3 is when he laps them so he's highly unlikely to ever get into a battle with a motard. Starting from 1 on the grid and winning every race must be quite lonely. Atleast when he decides to do an F2 race he gets some action.

All good points Garry, particularly re the differences between circuits, and have all been (pretty much) agreed to in a previous thread.
The concern is that the general interest of motarders has overridden the safety and other concerns of the existing class racers.
Interesting point re GW as well - it seems no one else is interested in running a national level F3 bike at club races.

[slowpoke]

One BIG positive as I see it is that it will mean everyone should get more racing. With motards absorbed into F3 that frees up time to run longer/more races for everyone.

[Deano]

One BIG positive as I see it is that it will mean everyone should get more racing. With motards absorbed into F3 that frees up time to run longer/more races for everyone.

"In race meetings where there are F3/ BEARS class races and also Super Motard class races then the genuine F3/ Bears bikes will have first call on the grid positions for the F3 races.

Any grid positions that are left vacant can be filled on a first entered (by post date of entry form to meeting) on the grid up to the maximum numbers on the grid as set by the club in the sub regs by Super Motard class bikes."


But with F3 fields in excess of 35 bikes (VMCC) there would be no room for SM's anyway ? That's how I read the above...

[Kevin G]

Amazing that you all have so many opinions now! The time to have your say has been and gone so now you live with it for the time period set. everyone on here had heaps of notice see http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=75283. it was in the racing fourm but has now been moved for reasons unknown to the motard section??

Maybe next time you might take the time to put your views forward to the right place.

I think the rule is fantasic and can only but help grow the sport, look at the big picture!

Kevin Goddard

[svr]

Amazing that you all have so many opinions now! The time to have your say has been and gone so now you live with it for the time period set. everyone on here had heaps of notice see http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=75283. it was in the racing fourm but has now been moved for reasons unknown to the motard section??

Maybe next time you might take the time to put your views forward to the right place.

I think the rule is fantasic and can only but help grow the sport, look at the big picture!

Kevin Goddard

The title of the thread gave no indication that Motards might be moved into a roadracing class and, as I (like others no doubt) thought it was none of my businesss, didn't read it or offer an opinion.

An aside, most delays at meeting are caused by crashes. This will increase the number of crashes

[GSVR]

Amazing that you all have so many opinions now! The time to have your say has been and gone so now you live with it for the time period set. everyone on here had heaps of notice see http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=75283. it was in the racing fourm but has now been moved for reasons unknown to the motard section??

Maybe next time you might take the time to put your views forward to the right place.

I think the rule is fantasic and can only but help grow the sport, look at the big picture!

Kevin Goddard

I'm really, really sorry. I apologize unreservedly. I offer a complete and utter retraction. The imputation was totally without basis in fact, and was in no way fair comment, and was motivated purely by malice, and I deeply regret any distress that my comments may have caused you, or your family, and I hereby undertake not to repeat any such slander at any time in the future.

[slowpoke]

"In race meetings where there are F3/ BEARS class races and also Super Motard class races then the genuine F3/ Bears bikes will have first call on the grid positions for the F3 races.

Any grid positions that are left vacant can be filled on a first entered (by post date of entry form to meeting) on the grid up to the maximum numbers on the grid as set by the club in the sub regs by Super Motard class bikes."


But with F3 fields in excess of 35 bikes (VMCC) there would be no room for SM's anyway ? That's how I read the above...

D'OH! Good onya, just burst my bubble why dontcha?! Take away my delusions and I'm left with nothing :weep:


....hang on I just had a brain fart: unless we do away with the separate Motard race and just run a combined F3/Pro-twin/Motard race. Those who don't qualify get bumped into Clubman's....

[GSVR]

D'OH! Good onya, just burst my bubble why dontcha?! Take away my delusions and I'm left with nothing :weep:


....hang on I just had a brain fart: unless we do away with the separate Motard race and just run a combined F3/Pro-twin/Motard race. Those who don't qualify get bumped into Clubman's....

Theres nothing to stop Motards entering into F2 or F1 either is there?

In the other thread in the first post MNZ is asking for opinions and submitions before considering excluding Motards from other classes like had been done in F3.

But sometime between then now MNZ has decided that it wasn't about excluding Motards from other classes but about allowing Motards back into F3.

Thats fine. If the request had read differently and was worded along the lines of "we are considering allowing Motards back into F3" then I'm certain there would have been a very different response from affected partys.

[Nicksta]

Theres nothing to stop Motards entering into F2 or F1 either is there?

In the other thread in the first post MNZ is asking for opinions and submitions before considering excluding Motards from other classes like had been done in F3.

But sometime between then now MNZ has decided that it wasn't about excluding Motards from other classes but about allowing Motards back into F3.

Thats fine. If the request had read differently and was worded along the lines of "we are considering allowing Motards back into F3" then I'm certain there would have been a very different response from affected partys.

your quite right!
the MNZ ruling is allowing them back in ALL formula classes... not just F3....
it just seems to affect F3 the most with the types of bikes involved... and myself hence my interest in the changes.....
The original voting was for F3 only.... and a F3 rule change trial.... now thanks to the non response from the trial on the road racers part... they are letting them back in all classes if the bike qualifies under the machine regulations and wualifying times i guess?

[roadracingoldfart]

As many of you that contest the VMCC will know , i have been racing for many years and have now retired to assist necomers into the sport of roadracing.
Newcomers means new riders and new classes and both are needed at times as a need arises. 250 proddie , is just one class that died taking an entry level class away from the format and F3 got alot of the fall out of that class demise.

One or two aspects of this thread have worried me and it has not yet been addressed by anyone.
Firstly, the object of giving motards thier own class and racing format was because the class was becoming popular and had a definate need within circuit racing in N.Z. but because of its exclusive riding techniques was deemed to be deserving its own class identity. I agree, it does.

Secondly, there was a call to introduce it to N.Z. racing as a spectical aimed at not only getting a few more moto-x riders to start to attend road circuit events but to draw a larger crowd to spectate these aforesaid events.
The main drawcard was promoted as a mixture of moto-x riding and circuit riding to give a fantastic and exciting race specticle. Apart from Wanganui i dont know of any other meeting (im happy to be wrong here) that has accommadated this duel track format. If i was part of the motard fraternity i would be spitting tacks over this aspect and yet now MNZ appears to be bending over the affected riders and shafting the whole concept of what was meant to be a crowd drawing specticle.
Instead of trying to gain access to the F3 class why dont the motard guys and girls ask for the dual concept to be introduced at more events so the class can do what it was aimed to. There is no need to cross enter motards to a class that does not want it (and dosnt suit it) when a concept exsists that will cover the needs.
Food for thought maybe ??? .

Paul.

[Tony.OK]

Ok so I chose to race in F1 on a litre bike, that means I can't cross enter into anything else.......................A rider chooses to race a motard, like me they have their own specific class so haven't been able to cross enter.

Whats the problem?

Racing is having a surge in numbers, new classes have been formed, everyone gets less tracktime.........................buy a suitable bike if ya want to cross enter.........simple.:yes:

[lostinflyz]

Ok so I chose to race in F1 on a litre bike, that means I can't cross enter into anything else.......................A rider chooses to race a motard, like me they have their own specific class so haven't been able to cross enter.

Whats the problem?

Racing is having a surge in numbers, new classes have been formed, everyone gets less tracktime.........................buy a suitable bike if ya want to cross enter.........simple.:yes:

100% agree. i dont particularly care where motards go but i think they have their own class now and are outta F3. the idea of cross entering now are a bit unrealistic considering the amount of new comers (including me). I mean why should a motord have its own class and F3, but not the reverse. If you wanna race more buy more bikes. its simple. I have a massive debt but id double it again to race more.

and im happy for motards to race F3 but if the motard who nearly cleaned out my front wheel (and sent me damn close to the wall of the infeild sweeper) at the have a go day down here did it in a race and i knew who it was id go for a few boxing rounds. and i have a feeling a bitta boxing maybe the outcome of this proposal in the end. but it aint the bikes or riding styles ultimately, its the people that ride them and a bit of their attitude and thats just sad. Its all club racing and people seem to forget that the motogp/supermoto teams arent scouting down here these days, and giving a wee bit might be a greater advantage. Im all good for racing and being beaten (even flogged) by a motard. But i wanna stay upright doing it, and not have to worry about what the next stupid move might be.

[Quasievil]

and im happy for motards to race F3 but if the motard who nearly cleaned out my front wheel (and sent me damn close to the wall of the infeild sweeper) at the have a go day down here did it in a race and i knew who it was id go for a few boxing rounds.

Mate you know well and true Im sure that there are far more plonkers racing sportsbikes than there are racing Motards, as pointed out its the rider in control of the bike not the style of the bike at fault.
Thata one reason Im off racing sportsbikes, to many young twats that dont understand racing ettiquitte or lines, not to mention the fields are stupid big.

[roogazza]

D'OH! Good onya, just burst my bubble why dontcha?! Take away my delusions and I'm left with nothing :weep:


....hang on I just had a brain fart: unless we do away with the separate Motard race and just run a combined F3/Pro-twin/Motard race. Those who don't qualify get bumped into Clubman's....

Thats good for us Slowpoke, raise the the 1.18 lap cut off , I don't mind wrestling with motards with my 300 kgs, and my bars are big enough !

I really can't see a problem people. Just stop this cross entering rubbish and we're sweet aren't we ?
MNZ set the classes and we buy the bikes to compete in them , simple !

gaz.

[Billy]

100% agree. i dont particularly care where motards go but i think they have their own class now and are outta F3. the idea of cross entering now are a bit unrealistic considering the amount of new comers (including me). I mean why should a motord have its own class and F3, but not the reverse. If you wanna race more buy more bikes. its simple. I have a massive debt but id double it again to race more.

and im happy for motards to race F3 but if the motard who nearly cleaned out my front wheel (and sent me damn close to the wall of the infeild sweeper) at the have a go day down here did it in a race and i knew who it was id go for a few boxing rounds. and i have a feeling a bitta boxing maybe the outcome of this proposal in the end. but it aint the bikes or riding styles ultimately, its the people that ride them and a bit of their attitude and thats just sad. Its all club racing and people seem to forget that the motogp/supermoto teams arent scouting down here these days, and giving a wee bit might be a greater advantage. Im all good for racing and being beaten (even flogged) by a motard. But i wanna stay upright doing it, and not have to worry about what the next stupid move might be.

Bloody well said mate,Anybody whose been paying attention would know that the crash rate in F3 has dropped significantly since the motards were removed.However I wouldnt go as far as to blame the riders as such.They are only trying to get the best out of their machinery and in this case it requires a completely different riding style than most racebikes,A point clearly overlooked by everybody involved in making this decision.I mean werent the 125 GP bikes removed from F3 for that very reason ?????Its unrealistic for anybody to expect a rider too ride their bike motard style in a race then go out 20mins later and ride it in a completely different style competitvely and safely,After all its hard enough to ride 2 or 3 different roadrace bikes on the same day.IE 600/SUPERBIKE OR 600?F3.Also whats the problem with crossentering?As long as the bike is eligible and can be ridden safely in more than 1 class I dont see a problem

[slowpoke]

Ok so I chose to race in F1 on a litre bike, that means I can't cross enter into anything else.......................A rider chooses to race a motard, like me they have their own specific class so haven't been able to cross enter.

Whats the problem?

Racing is having a surge in numbers, new classes have been formed, everyone gets less tracktime.........................buy a suitable bike if ya want to cross enter.........simple.:yes:

Yep, I'm in the same boat. I was hoping this meant that motards would be absorbed into F3 thereby eliminating a separate class and opening up more tracktime for everyone.

If the organisers are switched on then this may still happen. The bikes meet the technical requirements of F3 but for some reason people seem to have a fixation with treating them differently. Hopefully this will pass and it's in everyones interest that it does.

I'm not real keen on the idea of cross entry at all. We need to have a system that fosters a progression through to the premier class rather than the current set up which encourages people to stay in the middleweight classes simply to get more racing. As long as this is encouraged we will struggle to produce racers capable of challenging the established elite of Stroud, Shirriffs, Rees etc let alone the overseas burglars like Bugden, Giles and co

[slowpoke]

Thats good for us Slowpoke, raise the the 1.18 lap cut off , I don't mind wrestling with motards with my 300 kgs, and my bars are big enough !

I really can't see a problem people. Just stop this cross entering rubbish and we're sweet aren't we ?
MNZ set the classes and we buy the bikes to compete in them , simple !

gaz.

Exactly! Hmmmm, looks like I might have to start looking through the moto-X catalog to find some suitable bars for my bike.

[svr]

Bloody well said mate,Anybody whose been paying attention would know that the crash rate in F3 has dropped significantly since the motards were removed.However I wouldnt go as far as to blame the riders as such.They are only trying to get the best out of their machinery and in this case it requires a completely different riding style than most racebikes,A point clearly overlooked by everybody involved in making this decision.I mean werent the 125 GP bikes removed from F3 for that very reason ?????Its unrealistic for anybody to expect a rider too ride their bike motard style in a race then go out 20mins later and ride it in a completely different style competitvely and safely,

Exactly - old timers will tell you that radically different styles of machinery racing togethor creates rider frustration and more crashes. 250GP was taken out of F2 for the same reason.

[lostinflyz]

Mate you know well and true Im sure that there are far more plonkers racing sportsbikes than there are racing Motards, as pointed out its the rider in control of the bike not the style of the bike at fault.
Thata one reason Im off racing sportsbikes, to many young twats that dont understand racing ettiquitte or lines, not to mention the fields are stupid big.


hey now, im a young twat! (probably). I just think some common sense need apply. A rider who endangers others should be treated the same no matter what they ride. But most motards when they do something dodgy seem to lay blame off on style and not idiotic behaviour.

i agree about guys trying to get the most outta there bikes, people have different lines all over the show. If motards have to ride in a dangerous way to go fast then, put them all together and then it aint dangerous. Wait that has been done already so why are we going backwards.

Either way why do motards want to race F3. Track time?? If people start making exceptions for one class when does it stop.

[slowpoke]

hey now, im a young twat! (probably). I just think some common sense need apply. A rider who endangers others should be treated the same no matter what they ride. But most motards when they do something dodgy seem to lay blame off on style and not idiotic behaviour.

The "style" issue has now been resolved, put to bed, tucked away, iss kaput, finito etc They are to ride in the road race style not the "dog cornering on lino" style or they will be black flagged. This is clearly stated so no longer an issue

i agree about guys trying to get the most outta there bikes, people have different lines all over the show. If motards have to ride in a dangerous way to go fast then, put them all together and then it aint dangerous. Wait that has been done already so why are we going backwards.

As above, no longer an issue as they will be cornering in the same style that you/other racers are or they'll wear the consequences.
Either way why do motards want to race F3. Track time?? If people start making exceptions for one class when does it stop.

Why do motards want to race F3? Because that's where their machines fit, what's the problem?! If they bolted on clip-ons would you feel better? If they ride like everyone else and their machines are eligible how can you have a problem with it?

People deliberately buy pre 89 400's to compete in F3 and pre-89's, or SV650's to compete in F3 and 600SP, or 600's to compete in 600SP and Superbike and cross entering is currently allowed so they are hardly getting special treatment. As has already stated I don't agree with the cross entering, but while it is in place they should be entitled.

[lostinflyz]

Why do motards want to race F3? Because that's where their machines fit, what's the problem?! If they bolted on clip-ons would you feel better? If they ride like everyone else and their machines are eligible how can you have a problem with it?

People deliberately buy pre 89 400's to compete in F3 and pre-89's, or SV650's to compete in F3 and 600SP, or 600's to compete in 600SP and Superbike and cross entering is currently allowed so they are hardly getting special treatment. As has already stated I don't agree with the cross entering, but while it is in place they should be entitled.

seems pretty silly that all those bikes mentioned are generally useless in one of the classes you mention. (note that i said generally)

either way you are right about cross entering. if its allowed then hey why not. down here i see it slightly different as we have no pre 89. so im grumpy. but it seems some people want race days to be more track days.

[Kickaha]

Bloody well said mate,Anybody whose been paying attention would know that the crash rate in F3 has dropped significantly since the motards were removed.

Got some statistics to back that up?


125 GP bikes removed from F3 for that very reason

I thought they were removed because the F3 riders where a bunch of whinging bitches who couldn't handle getting beaten by them

[Billy]

Got some statistics to back that up?
No none at all.Ask the F3 guys and the organisers.They,ll tell you


I thought they were removed because the F3 riders where a bunch of whinging bitches who couldn't handle getting beaten by them

Yea,Sort of the same thing,Only it was dodgy and as pointed out by SVR,the same thing happened to F2 with the 250s

[Shaun]

Exactly - old timers will tell you that radically different styles of machinery racing togethor creates rider frustration and more crashes. 250GP was taken out of F2 for the same reason.


AGREE with this and all Billy has said

Disagree with what Quasi is saying though ( Sorry mate) You have only really ever been involved in the club scene stuff, the Nats are very different

Chook chasers on the track with propper road race bikes, IS DANGEROUS SIMPLE AND DUMB

God, Hope that is not ME DUMMING down the sport again:hug:

[Robert Taylor]

AGREE with this and all Billy has said

Disagree with what Quasi is saying though ( Sorry mate) You have only really ever been involved in the club scene stuff, the Nats are very different

Chook chasers on the track with propper road race bikes, IS DANGEROUS SIMPLE AND DUMB

God, Hope that is not ME DUMMING down the sport again:hug:

For once I agree with Shaun, the steering geometry and ''sponge pudding'' suspension travel of dirtbikes neccessitates quite different cornering lines to those actually built for road race tracks. I am not against motards but it is totally correct to say that when they mix it with bikes built specifically for tarmac they do raise the level of danger significantly. That is unneccessary.
Heck, here in NZ we are not sticking to the true motard track formula anyway and our population is not big enough to support stand alone events on a regular basis. So as a home for ex MX bikes why not rebuild them as F450 bikes as is becoming popular in the States, and integrate into F3? Just thinking aloud and I think others have touted same...

[racer40]

at the Taupo road race spectacular we do not run motards with F3 as F3 fill the class up on their own. from the feedback we get from our F3 riders this is the way they like it, & so support our event. we are not against motard riders, & they also support with big feilds, & in the past have let eligible ones in BEARS to top up the class. This year to support motards they have been included in the PROMOTO tri series, of which Taupo is the final round.

[Quasievil]

For once I agree with Shaun, the steering geometry and ''sponge pudding'' suspension travel of dirtbikes ate into F3?

lol said with love........................bollocks !!! my motard whitepower suspension system is more dialed in that the sv650 ohlins, based on weight and general manouverability superiority

[Ivan]

lol said with love........................bollocks !!! my motard whitepower suspension system is more dialed in that the sv650 ohlins, based on weight and general manouverability superiority

Lol

But the 650 sounds and looks cooler:2guns:

[Robert Taylor]

lol said with love........................bollocks !!! my motard whitepower suspension system is more dialed in that the sv650 ohlins, based on weight and general manouverability superiority

In all honesty I am trying to be totally subjective and devoid of emotion. This is also not an argument about differing brands of suspension
If as an engineer you were presented with an mx or motard bike and were asked to dial it in to go around a tarmac road race track as fast as possible youd end up doing rather a lot to it. Inclusive of sorting out the steering geometry either by offset triple clamps or new lower fork axle castings, firmer springing, much more low speed compression shimming and less high speed and a radical drop in ride height. I.E Turn it into a proper tarmac bike.
The end result is yes it would be a whole load less manouverable because it would take more traditional but ultimately faster lines. Motards are built for a split of dirt and tarmac sections so are essentially a compromise. Cold hard fact. The fact also remains that because of the radically different lines they take they are potentially dangerous when mixed in with proper tarmac bikes.

[Robert Taylor]

lol said with love........................bollocks !!! my motard whitepower suspension system is more dialed in that the sv650 ohlins, based on weight and general manouverability superiority

Actually Quasi I do disagree with the said personality on many things and will continue to do so BUT on what he expressed about the danger that Motards present when mixed with F3 bikes I do agree, even though the point was made less than eloquently. Concurrence where justified.
Heck, I dislike Clarkenstein with a vengeance but agree with her stance on Zimbabwe, for example.

[roadracingoldfart]

Its like arguing with the Japanese that whale hunting is bad . some people will not listen and will even create reasons to prolong a debate. :baby:

Whats more , Motards look funny :sleep:

[Quasievil]

Actually Quasi I do disagree with the said personality on many things and will continue to do so BUT on what he expressed about the danger that Motards present when mixed with F3 bikes I do agree, even though the point was made less than eloquently. Concurrence where justified.
Heck, I dislike Clarkenstein with a vengeance but agree with her stance on Zimbabwe, for example.

I was drunk, nough said :woohoo:

[Quasievil]

Whats more , Motards look funny :sleep:

Do not .....................

[Shaun]

I suppose you think TRANSVESTITES are good looking as well???

[DEATH_INC.]

I really can't see a problem people. Just stop this cross entering rubbish and we're sweet aren't we ?
MNZ set the classes and we buy the bikes to compete in them , simple !

gaz.
Right on.....

[Quasievil]

Atthis months VMCC, I dont plan on entering the F3 as I would rather race my own kind, balding fat and slow

[slowpoke]

In all honesty I am trying to be totally subjective and devoid of emotion. This is also not an argument about differing brands of suspension
If as an engineer you were presented with an mx or motard bike and were asked to dial it in to go around a tarmac road race track as fast as possible youd end up doing rather a lot to it. Inclusive of sorting out the steering geometry either by offset triple clamps or new lower fork axle castings, firmer springing, much more low speed compression shimming and less high speed and a radical drop in ride height. I.E Turn it into a proper tarmac bike.
The end result is yes it would be a whole load less manouverable because it would take more traditional but ultimately faster lines. Motards are built for a split of dirt and tarmac sections so are essentially a compromise. Cold hard fact. The fact also remains that because of the radically different lines they take they are potentially dangerous when mixed in with proper tarmac bikes.

Yep, theoretically and practically a motards suspension is always going to be compromised compared to a dedicated tarmac race bike.....BUT in reality a motard weighs significantly less than the established F3 bikes.

An Aprilia SXV 5.5 weighs about 120kg's, a Husaberg FS650 weighs just 112kg's. An SV650 in race trim is going to be at least 150kg's, probably more? That's a significant weight difference, hence I reckon a motard corners at least as well as the the average F3 bike despite the compromises.

[Robert Taylor]

Yep, theoretically and practically a motards suspension is always going to be compromised compared to a dedicated tarmac race bike.....BUT in reality a motard weighs significantly less than the established F3 bikes.

An Aprilia SXV 5.5 weighs about 120kg's, a Husaberg FS650 weighs just 112kg's. An SV650 in race trim is going to be at least 150kg's, probably more? That's a significant weight difference, hence I reckon a motard corners at least as well as the the average F3 bike despite the compromises.

As an AVERAGE F3. Think how much better again a motard would corner with some seriouis no-compromise work.

[roadracingoldfart]

Atthis months VMCC, I dont plan on entering the F3 as I would rather race my own kind, balding fat and slow


Ohhhhh.....
I have never seen such a great quote to answer than this one <_< :blink:

Thats not something i knew about motard riders, thank god for full face helmets <_< is all i can think of at short notice. :2guns:

[roadracingoldfart]

[QUOTE=slowpoke;1720212].....BUT in reality a motard weighs significantly less than the established F3 bikes.

An Aprilia SXV 5.5 weighs about 120kg's, a Husaberg FS650 weighs just 112kg's. An SV650 in race trim is going to be at least 150kg's, probably more? QUOTE]


I know my CBR 400 RR is heavy at 165 kgs.
Thats why i got Nicksta to ride it to gain a bit of power to weight ratio.

now stop calling my bike fat , its just not nice
next you will say my bike is too short compared to a motard

[slowpoke]

As an AVERAGE F3. Think how much better again a motard would corner with some seriouis no-compromise work.

Yup, it would be fantastic, I'm suprised no one's done it. You could go the whole hog and create a much cheaper version of Jason Easton's(sp) lovely Tigcraft F3 bike with a motard as the base. Lower/sort the suspension, clip on's, replacement bodywork and you'd have an awesome F3 weapon and it wouldn't cost moonbeams either.

[slowpoke]

[QUOTE=slowpoke;1720212].....BUT in reality a motard weighs significantly less than the established F3 bikes.

An Aprilia SXV 5.5 weighs about 120kg's, a Husaberg FS650 weighs just 112kg's. An SV650 in race trim is going to be at least 150kg's, probably more? QUOTE]


I know my CBR 400 RR is heavy at 165 kgs.
Thats why i got Nicksta to ride it to gain a bit of power to weight ratio.

now stop calling my bike fat , its just not nice
next you will say my bike is too short compared to a motard

We could always call it "dense"? Er, maybe not......

[vtec]

I've crashed my CBR600 because of motards doing their super late braking and parking mid corner on the Taupo club circuit. bike slid all the way to the tyre wall and I crashed into the bike. I reckon I'd kick arse on a motard, cause I spent ages on a farmbike couriering, and I could corner that thing like mad. But I KNOW they are dangerous when mixed with road race bikes.

Also, a slower lapping motard can beat a faster lapping road bike because of their corner disruption styles.

If you're wondering how a motard could disrupt a 600, well it was on a really little tight circuit which really suits motards. And I've beaten Glen Williams (him on SV650 me on CBR600RR) on the A1 circuit, so I don't fuck around. Which also means these particular motards could mess with him on that circuit. They may have been quite large capacity motards, I'm not sure what they were but they were smoking it up out of the corners. There were 2 messing my lines up, extremely frustrating, and created a lot of fear when tipping in for corners cause you never knew when you were going to find yourself leaning on some chicken chaser who's gone in too hot.

P.S. I'd love to ride motard though.

[Robert Taylor]

Yup, it would be fantastic, I'm suprised no one's done it. You could go the whole hog and create a much cheaper version of Jason Easton's(sp) lovely Tigcraft F3 bike with a motard as the base. Lower/sort the suspension, clip on's, replacement bodywork and you'd have an awesome F3 weapon and it wouldn't cost moonbeams either.

I.E. F450. Makes a lot of sense, especially given that we usually dont race as per the accepted Motard track formula.

[Quasievil]

we usually dont race as per the accepted Motard track formula.

Thank fuck or I would be screwed lol

[TonyB]

As always I'm kinda on the fence with the Motard thing. They were excluded from BEARS classes this year, and the racing suffered for it. As I have said elsewhere MOST Motard riders down here have adopted a traditional road riding syle. However lets face it- we're racing. If your bike allows you to outbrake a road bike, park in front of it, then squirt away again...your gonna do it, aren't you.

Motard riders talk about F3 riders whinging because they get beaten by Motards. Its probably a fair call. But look at it from the F3 riders point of view. Its meant to be a low budget starter class- yeah the front runners are spending a fair bit, but then they're not having issues with Motards. The majority of the feild have spent less than $5k on their modified BUDGET road bikes, and that is all they can afford. F3 is the only class they get to race in, so they want to enjoy their racing.

Mr Motard racer (now) already has their own class, their bike is a purpose built race bike, its massively lighter, pretty well suited to our tight NZ tracks and he's probably spent as much on his Motard conversion kit as the F3 guys he's racing with have spent on their entire bike. This doesn't include the purchase price of the bike itself.... He can outbrake an F3 bike, block their line in the corner, and then accelerate out better due to the bikes good torque and light weight. Because all the other Motards are based on the same class structure, you end up with groups of them flying in formation. The F3 bike stuck behind may well be capable of better lap times, but the traffic jam in front makes passing....interesting.

This is what happened to me at my last race. About 6 to 8 Motards in front of me. They took most of the race to pass a guy I normally deal to fairly easily. So why didn't I pass? Well 3 of them fell off in 6 laps of 1 minute....bikes three or four wide everywhere while they tried to pass the guy I metioned. It was a frustrating race. Next time I'll get to the dummy grid quicker ;)

[scracha]

The majority of the feild have spent less than $5k on their modified BUDGET road bikes, and that is all they can afford. F3 is the only class they get to race in, so they want to enjoy their racing.


Spot on Tony. The yuppies on Motards should just fuck off into their own class. End of. MNZ bunch of arse.

[Robert Taylor]

Spot on Tony. The yuppies on Motards should just fuck off into their own class. End of. MNZ bunch of arse.

Hey lets be fair and reasonable! I dont agree with intermixing motards but they have a place if there are the numbers and people want to ride them. And if people have the means to spec them up ( and have worked hard for those means ) why knock them for it?
And, there are overall some very good people in MNZ doing a thankless job, sure they dont always get it right.

[Quasievil]

Spot on Tony. The yuppies on Motards should just fuck off into their own class. End of. MNZ bunch of arse.

Bring it ya scottish git, you me and the track :devil2:

BWAAAAHHH

[slowpoke]

I've crashed my CBR600 because of motards doing their super late braking and parking mid corner on the Taupo club circuit..

Read, the new guidelines if this happens excessively they are GONE


However lets face it- we're racing. If your bike allows you to outbrake a road bike, park in front of it, then squirt away again...your gonna do it, aren't you.



As above


The yuppies on Motards should just fuck off into their own class.

Yuppies? From the bloke with a Ducati..... (sorry mate couldn't resist, I'll buy you a latte to make up for it):dodge::Pokey:

[svr]

I.E. F450. Makes a lot of sense, especially given that we usually dont race as per the accepted Motard track formula.

Is it a major job shortening the travel and lowering motard suspension? The US riders replace the front-ends and buy new shocks, which seems fairly expensive.

[Shaun]

Hey SVR

Where the hell do you get your prices from that you are suggesting it costs to build a competitive tricked out SV mate?

The numbers you are talking a very very very silly

[JJ58]

Has anyone looked at the WERA site to see what won the lightweight super sport and lwt superbike class at the Grattan NC?....... It was a dude on a Aprillia SXV..... Just an interesting fact. I think the dude is leading the lwt superbike class in overall points (or something like that).....

[vtec]

I'm starting to find the motards extremely appealing, a lot of fun to ride, it's hard to get it wrong on them. Plus I want to learn how to maintain powerslides, and there's nothing better for it than a motard. I'm not swinging either way to banning them in F3 or anything, but I think an SXV550 in F3 would clean up the 400's. And on a tight circuit like the Taupo club circuit they would clean up the 650's too. Amazing punch out of the corners.

[xwhatsit]

SXV550 in F3
Do it right at least!

[Kickaha]

Spot on Tony. The yuppies on Motards should just fuck off into their own class. End of. MNZ bunch of arse.

It's not the fault of MNZ the riders were to apathetic to bother submitting something about this when MNZ asked for it and would rather just whine about it afterwards

[svr]

Hey SVR

Where the hell do you get your prices from that you are suggesting it costs to build a competitive tricked out SV mate?

The numbers you are talking a very very very silly

An F3 SV:
bike 10k front end 2 ttx shock 3 cartridges 3 wheels 3 fairings 1 brakes 1 cams 1 pistons 0.5 valves 0.5 rods 1 porting 1 pipe 2 power commander 0.5 crank work 1 etc.
oh thats well over 30k without labour, spares, slipper clutch, dyno time etc. etc.

Hmmm makes 600 production look good - could go lots faster for half the money and less maintenance....

[scracha]

It's not the fault of MNZ the riders were to apathetic to bother submitting something about this when MNZ asked for it and would rather just whine about it afterwards

Asked for it where? Oh yes, I forgot about the excellent communications channels that MNZ have.


Hey lets be fair and reasonable!
Oh C'mon...it's an Internet forum. Fair and reasonable have no place here.


Bring it ya scottish git, you me and the track :devil2:
BWAAAAHHH
See..KB's biggest Yuppie.

I rest my case

[Kickaha]

Discussion on it here http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=75283

It was originally in racing and was moved when the Motard forum was opened

It was also posted on the MNZ website

If you don't check the MNZ website and keep up to date with whats happening you've go no one to blame but yourselves when stuff goes through you don't agree with

Or you could just pass the buck and blame MNZ

[scracha]

MNZ site...no dates, misleading article titles and little categorisation between general news/motoX/road racing articles/links necessitates trawling every article (including the broken menu links). The site is gradually getting better though.

Forum you link to....pretty much majority of F3 riders still express the fact that they don't want motards in with them but this is clearly ignored.

Would mention of this proposal at the trackside for those participating with F3 bikes / motards not have been a sensible idea?

That said, they do seem to have listened to comments about motords taking very different lines and backing it in (big style) mid-corner so as long as they're enforced then perhaps it will all work out.

[blueblade]

Is it a major job shortening the travel and lowering motard suspension? The US riders replace the front-ends and buy new shocks, which seems fairly expensive.

No, its not a major. Talk to Lyndon from Boyds. He has done quite a few.

[Robert Taylor]

No, its not a major. Talk to Lyndon from Boyds. He has done quite a few.

Its not a major shortening but I beg to differ in as much as substanial improvements could be effected with damping, and I dont just mean by revalving ( itself a misunderstood term ) Addressing the rake and trail issue would also result in faster corner speeds and more precise steering

[roadracingoldfart]

Bring it ya scottish git, you me and the track :devil2:

BWAAAAHHH

Bring it onnnnn. and ill let Stevie take ya out on my CBR hehehehe :2guns: :bleh:

[blueblade]

No argument there. Shortening was the easy bit. Getting the damping right was another matter altogether.

[Shaun]

An F3 SV:
bike 10k front end 2 ttx shock 3 cartridges 3 wheels 3 fairings 1 brakes 1 cams 1 pistons 0.5 valves 0.5 rods 1 porting 1 pipe 2 power commander 0.5 crank work 1 etc.
oh thats well over 30k without labour, spares, slipper clutch, dyno time etc. etc.

Hmmm makes 600 production look good - could go lots faster for half the money and less maintenance....




That is NOT ONE BIKE!!! That is bike and a shit load of spares in case of crashes

I can and do build, 03 sv motor and chassis and electrics, power commander, Arrow race pipe, foot peg kit, Full race body work, 06-07 GSXR front end ( STD) and Penske Rear shock NEW! Stearing damper.

Bike is not road regiserable as they are NOT standard Legal for the road, and have NO road parts
for $12-500


The first one I built in 05, ONLY HAD STOCK STD ENGINE, and a rider that had NOT raced prior to Puckekohe round, and he ended up running as high as 3rd position in the GP race IN CH-CH, SO it is not just about a fast tuned motor, it is more about a well set up chassis package, and riders tTRUE abbility

Sorry to seem to be hassling you, BUT YOUR POST RE COSTS, IS A REAL SCARE OFF for People who know NO BETTER.

$12-500 as above can be supplied.

[svr]

That is NOT ONE BIKE!!! That is bike and a shit load of spares in case of crashes

I can and do build, 03 sv motor and chassis and electrics, power commander, Arrow race pipe, foot peg kit, Full race body work, 06-07 GSXR front end ( STD) and Penske Rear shock NEW! Stearing damper.

Bike is not road regiserable as they are NOT standard Legal for the road, and have NO road parts
for $12-500


The first one I built in 05, ONLY HAD STOCK STD ENGINE, and a rider that had NOT raced prior to Puckekohe round, and he ended up running as high as 3rd position in the GP race IN CH-CH, SO it is not just about a fast tuned motor, it is more about a well set up chassis package, and riders tTRUE abbility

Sorry to seem to be hassling you, BUT YOUR POST RE COSTS, IS A REAL SCARE OFF for People who know NO BETTER.

$12-500 as above can be supplied.

We are talking about different things. I've mentioned elsewhere that you can ride an F3 bike for as little as $1500, or, if you want to build a bike like say Terry Fitz's or GW's it will cost the average punter about 30k. It would also cost a shitload to get your bike (an ideal club racing F3 bike) to that level. Sure with a very good rider your bike might `run as high as third' on a twisty track, but that's not the same as being on equal equipment, which was my point.

[Shaun]

We are talking about different things. I've mentioned elsewhere that you can ride an F3 bike for as little as $1500, or, if you want to build a bike like say Terry Fitz's or GW's it will cost the average punter about 30k. It would also cost a shitload to get your bike (an ideal club racing F3 bike) to that level. Sure with a very good rider your bike might `run as high as third' on a twisty track, but that's not the same as being on equal equipment, which was my point.


We are NOT talking about things- YOU are NOT sticking to the SV $ value part of it, that it is all, you are wondering around having a dribble and putting people of the idea of a TRUE SV F3 bike, USING the $ numbers you have posted, WHICH IS TOTALLY WRONG!



Read your own posts on this subject, and read my replies RE what I CAN! and HAVE AND DO SUPPLY FOR WHAT VALUE RE SV650

My dealis $12-500 less engine performance work
approx $5000
Forkkit
approx $1500-00

LESS THAN 20K for a true serious Terry Fitz = bike

carry on driver

[Kevin G]

It's not the fault of MNZ the riders were to apathetic to bother submitting something about this when MNZ asked for it and would rather just whine about it afterwards

I 100% agree. If the F3 riders could not see that perhaps any discussion on the subject could well effect them then they must live in caves or wear blinkers. Again I say to all those that did nothing when invited. TOUGH LUCK. live with your in-action. Maybe next time you will do something when asked.

Kevin Goddard

[Robert Taylor]

We are talking about different things. I've mentioned elsewhere that you can ride an F3 bike for as little as $1500, or, if you want to build a bike like say Terry Fitz's or GW's it will cost the average punter about 30k. It would also cost a shitload to get your bike (an ideal club racing F3 bike) to that level. Sure with a very good rider your bike might `run as high as third' on a twisty track, but that's not the same as being on equal equipment, which was my point.

Some of your price examples were a little off but I can also clearly see the points you are trying to make, as will others. The competitiveness and reliability of the bike is almost always linked to the dollars spent.
I care not if anyone wishes to argue black is white or white is black, thats the reality and arguments can be made from various parties without recourse to belittling comments.

[svr]

We are NOT talking about things- YOU are NOT sticking to the SV $ value part of it, that it is all, you are wondering around having a dribble and putting people of the idea of a TRUE SV F3 bike, USING the $ numbers you have posted, WHICH IS TOTALLY WRONG!



Read your own posts on this subject, and read my replies RE what I CAN! and HAVE AND DO SUPPLY FOR WHAT VALUE RE SV650

My dealis $12-500 less engine performance work
approx $5000
Forkkit
approx $1500-00

LESS THAN 20K for a true serious Terry Fitz = bike

carry on driver

I agree, for a very good deal someone could build an excellent F3 sv for 20k ish. But WITHOUT the DYMAG CARBON FIBER (OR MAGNESIUM) WHEELS, CUSTOM OHLINS TTX SHOCK, OHLINS FORK CARTRIDGES, SLIPPER CLUTCH, CUSTOM MADE TRIPLE CLAMPS, BETTER BRAKES, etc, which would add significant costs, and which other bikes he or she would be competing against most certainly do have.

With all due respect to you as a racer Shaun, I'm not sure how abuse and capital letters changes simple facts or mathematics, nor that we should insult racers by shielding them from truths which might otherwise `scare' them.

[svr]

Some of your price examples were a little off but I can also clearly see the points you are trying to make, as will others. The competitiveness and reliability of the bike is almost always linked to the dollars spent.
I care not if anyone wishes to argue black is white or white is black, thats the reality and arguments can be made from various parties without recourse to belittling comments.

Thanks for that. That 30k figure is `ballpark' that I came up with when I looked at building my bike, but I think it's pretty close. I had no idea I'd be hauled over the coals for making some basic empirical observations and what I thought was a simple logical point.

[scracha]

invited. TOUGH LUCK. live with your in-action. Maybe next time you will do something when asked.
Kevin Goddard

I must live in a cave because as far as I'm concerned the motards have sneaked back in to F3. I'd do a straw poll of other F3 racers next meeting and I'd bet at least half knew fark all about this. However, rules are rules so I'll now shut the fuck up about it.

And Shaun......you're a top bloke but STOP SHOUTING IN YOUR POSTS ;)

[mud boy]

Sounds good to me. I don't race either class though.

maybe you should Skunk:cool:
that would be soo cool to see you out there haha


all up sounds good lsat class more lapps!

[Shaun]

I agree, for a very good deal someone could build an excellent F3 sv for 20k ish. But WITHOUT the DYMAG CARBON FIBER (OR MAGNESIUM) WHEELS, CUSTOM OHLINS TTX SHOCK, OHLINS FORK CARTRIDGES, SLIPPER CLUTCH, CUSTOM MADE TRIPLE CLAMPS, BETTER BRAKES, etc, which would add significant costs, and which other bikes he or she would be competing against most certainly do have.

With all due respect to you as a racer Shaun, I'm not sure how abuse and capital letters changes simple facts or mathematics, nor that we should insult racers by shielding them from truths which might otherwise `scare' them.


SVR :Oops: Sorry You are correct, I was being Rude with the way I responded there:bash:

[Shaun]

I must live in a cave because as far as I'm concerned the motards have sneaked back in to F3. I'd do a straw poll of other F3 racers next meeting and I'd bet at least half knew fark all about this. However, rules are rules so I'll now shut the fuck up about it.

And Shaun......you're a top bloke but STOP SHOUTING IN YOUR POSTS ;)

Rodga that:beer:

[slowpoke]

I agree, for a very good deal someone could build an excellent F3 sv for 20k ish. But WITHOUT the DYMAG CARBON FIBER (OR MAGNESIUM) WHEELS, CUSTOM OHLINS TTX SHOCK, OHLINS FORK CARTRIDGES, SLIPPER CLUTCH, CUSTOM MADE TRIPLE CLAMPS, BETTER BRAKES, etc, which would add significant costs, and which other bikes he or she would be competing against most certainly do have.

With all due respect to you as a racer Shaun, I'm not sure how abuse and capital letters changes simple facts or mathematics, nor that we should insult racers by shielding them from truths which might otherwise `scare' them.

"If you want to go as fast as everyone else do exactly what everyone else is doing."

This is a classic statement that still holds true today, but isn't the aim to actually beat other people, not just go as fast them? Even with an equivalent bike I'm afraid there are very few riders who can compete with Glen Williams and Terry Fitzgerald for ridng and set-up ability, so good luck with that.

So why not think outside the square? Isn't that the whole point of F3? There's an RS250 frame for sale on Trade Me as we speak which is the perfect base for something amazing if someone has the vision....but no, everyone just wants to buy it instead of build it.

If you just want the cheapest possible racing there are other classes available.

[svr]

Being motorsport money and speed will always be related but happily the relationship is complicated by factors such as building skill, parts sourcing ability and, being motorbike racing, riding ability.
Since its inception 20yrs ago F3 has certainly given rise to an incredibly creative array of chassis / engine combinations to showcase building ability, often built on shoestring budgets.
As a class it obviously means quite different things to different people (riders and/or builders), and its fairly unique position as the `multi-purpose' class probably explains its 20yr longevity to date.

[svr]

SVR :Oops: Sorry You are correct, I was being Rude with the way I responded there:bash:

No worries - TT winners should get a bit of slack in my book.

[gimpy]

The rules mnz have made seem pretty good to me,I dont think its really going to affect the big meetings ie wanganui,paeroa as they have full f3 grids anyway but it will help with smaller club and bear meetings were you get guys on more dual purpose road dirt bikes that want to ride if a motard class isnt a option,I dont fully agree with motards in f3 but I did keep an I on what rule changes were going on and they werent going to affect me so I didn't voice an opinion,it cracks me up how people in the class moan about the change but how many of them actually voiced there concern to paul,not many by the sound of it ,it also cracks me up on how the motard guys moan like fuck about not being able to race in f3 but when someone uses the rules to there advantage as they do to race a proper race bike in there class and kicks there arses the rules couldn't be changed fast enough.

[TonyB]

For the record, had I voted, I would have voted to let Motards back in. I wasn't happy about them being kicked out of BEARS this year. NZ is too small to be able to afford to exclude people who want to race. The reason I didn't vote is because F3 is only one class I get to race in, and for the reasons I stated earlier, I thought it best to leave the decision to the racers who ONLY get to race in F3. I enjoy racing against bikes with different strengths and weaknesses.... but having said that, I reckon if I could only race F3 I'd be frustrated as hell with Motards

[Shaun]

No worries - TT winners should get a bit of slack in my book.


Cheers. I have Learned some more again!!

[mud boy]

Bring it ya scottish git, you me and the track :devil2:

BWAAAAHHH

your a dreama ae Quasi:shifty:

[Quasievil]

your a dreama ae Quasi:shifty:


Um, yup that sums me up nicely my young pit biatch