Technique Clinic

[OV Lander]

Surely I can't be the only one who is new to Adventure riding and finding it difficult to find books on solid adventure riding technique?

Am I the only one out there at the weekend trying to learn their gravel and off road skills by trial, error and feel?

Some rides feel really great, solid and confidence boosting...
...other rides just don't click. Tyres roll seemingly tractionless over the metal surface and the confidence takes a dive.

Within our group we have many years of experience and technical knowledge (but hey, who's counting?), and I have found myself thinking it would be a good idea to have a single thread to paste and answer questions specifically on riding technique (this is where are more senior members will tell me which thread I should be reading... apologies in advance if this is the case).

Would people see value in having something such as a "Technique Clinic" as a Sticky Topic?... ...I know I'd value such a space and would learn heaps from other peoples questions.

To get the ball rolling I thought I'd raise the two things that are getting me to think most whilst out there on the metal:

1 - Cornering on Gravel:
So what is the best technique for people to start developing?
- Stand?
- Sit?
- Front or rear brakes?
- Counter steer?
- Lean the bike or keep it upright?

2 - Slowing down on steep downhill gravel:
- Afraid of locking up the front wheel;
- Worried that the back wheel will lock and come alongside.
- What should I be thinking to best coach myself?
- Where should my weight be - front or back?

I'd really appreciate your input as I'm very keen to tap into the knowledge here, and really keen to improve my technique, safety and enjoyment of the ride.

Cheers in advance.

[Padmei]

Good questions OV lander. You can be sure that there are many others out there that want to know the answers to these questions.

I am new to Adv biking & find some things like the front wheel floating over fresh gravel quite freaky - not knowing if this is what it's supposed to feel like.

I guess a lot of it is experience but from some questions i've asked I know there are some good instructors out there amongst the kiwibiker crew.

I have signed up to an upcoming Kawasaki off road course travelling thru NZ so will hopefully glean some info from that.

[JATZ]

I have signed up to an upcoming Kawasaki off road course travelling thru NZ so will hopefully glean some info from that.

Where do you sign up for that ? I'd be keen on that sort of thing

[Denniso]

The single most important thing I have found on gravel , by trial and a heap of error is to stay relaxed and don't fight the bike . Once you can do that then you can start to have fun and concentrate on developing your own riding style that suits you , listen to the advice of others but keep in mind that they will probably have a differant style of riding to the one you will come to be happy with . ( I wouldn't expect too many people to enjoy or endorse my preferance for cut slicks and loads of throttle , but to each there own ) After years of sports bikes I have found the most fun on gravel roads and now my thou just gathers dust waiting .

[Padmei]

Mike Cotter is touring & doing clinics in conjunction with Kawa NZ for motorcrossers. He can be reached at madracing1@xtra.co.nz

Not sure of dates etc but think it's for greenies -not sure on others. He mentioned Gonzo may not make it thru some parts of the track - I just laughed -hahaha like that:headbang: It's to be held on a motoross rack I think.
Contact him & see.

[monchopper]

There are various techniques for all areas of bike riding. But it's mostly about miles, miles and more miles. Experiment with different techniques and you'll find something the suits you and most importantly be honest with yourself about where you're at ability wise and don't let your confidence exceed ability.
If you're not having a great day except it but still enjoy it (it'll be much worse if you have a nasty off). There are hundreds of reasons you might be having a bit of an off day from tiredness to tyre pressure.

I think learning to do some controlled slides with the back wheel locked is a good idea. Start off slow and get faster as you get a feel for it. Also try locking up in a straight line and using a various amounts of front brake. (Cheaper to try this with a near knackered tyre!)

Never go downhill in a higher gear than you'd go up in.
In adverse terrain stand up and look ahead. Never get fixed on the front wheel.

I like to setup into a corner with a slight counter steer to set the ball rolling but know plenty of riders that don't like counter steering. Try getting some of your body weight on the outside footpeg, I find this helps controlling and preventing slides (It took me ages to get this).

Have a look on http://www.thumpertalk.com for some good discussions.

I ride a smaller bike over generally rougher terrain (road legal trail riding really) I'm sure there are different techniques for the guys on the bigger DS bikes. Ask, listen, try, use if like, disgard if not.

[monchopper]

Another thing which alot of people don't bother with but is one of the most important things is suspension.

Get your suspension setup (repeat 3x). Most bikes these days have 'clickers' which adjust the dampening. Play around with them. Well setup suspension will keep you fresher longer cos you're not fighting the bike as much.

Many people buy a bike and just start riding it. You'll be amazed at how much more control you have everywhere, especially downhill braking and cornering!!

[warewolf]

I'm no expert but I've done lots of it and been to quite a few courses.

First up, let me say everybody hates shallow loose pea gravel (deep is more fun, it acts like sand).

Secondly, being taught by someone who knows what they are doing is far more productive than your own trial and error. Go do some training if you can, preferably trail/enduro it is closer to adventure than motocross. Not really any professional adventure training around. The price of a training course or two and a fresh set of tyres will do way more for your skills, speed & pleasure than a loud pipe ever will...

Thirdly, as general rule, riding off-road (anything non-tarmac) you have to get used to the bike moving around, and you balancing the bike. The bike is no longer "fixed" to the surface, so the techniques are different (or less forgiving of errors).


1 - Cornering on Gravel:
So what is the best technique for people to start developing?
- Stand?
- Sit?
- Front or rear brakes?
- Counter steer?
- Lean the bike or keep it upright?Sit or stand in the corners is a personal preferences. Greg Power taught stand everywhere unless resting on straight flat easy stuff (trials technique); Nick Reader taught go to a sit on the corner entry/approach (motocross technique).

Front/rear brakes... well sharp corners you brake-slide around, so that'd be rear brake. The amount of braking comes down to tyres versus surface, if that's not an obvious thing to say. Preferably do it in a straight line first, then tip in to the corner. Remember, if you think you have enough traction to brake, then you've definitely got enough traction to corner, which is a better option.

Counter-steering is not optional. You pretty much can't steer a bike without it. However you can be subtle to the point it's not noticed, or extremely aggressive. The faster you want to turn the bike, the harder you have to counter-steer.

Off-road you generally tip the bike in more than the body, weight the outside peg. Most off-road tyres have more gaps at the edges; the opposite of sports road tyres. This is often more so with radial dual-purpose sports tyres for the big trailies.


2 - Slowing down on steep downhill gravel:
- Afraid of locking up the front wheel;
- Worried that the back wheel will lock and come alongside.
- What should I be thinking to best coach myself?
- Where should my weight be - front or back?As for cornering, brake beforehand, aka "control your speed".

Locking the back won't cause it to come around if you are holding the bike straight and balancing it. In fact if it is really steep, then holding the back locked is one less thing for you to think about, and you can spend more concentration on feathering the front to the traction limit. On a loose surface, a locked wheel stops better than not, due to the snowplough effect.

Stay centred on the bike. Don't lean forward/back, but rather stay upright and let the bike come to you or fall away on the hills. Shift your hips more than your shoulders: bend zee knees to get your weight up front, poke your bum out to shift weight back. Weight over the front on corners.

Above all - have fun!

[Balrog]

I found this DVD very good for learning the basics.

<img src="http://www.dualsportriding.com/images/?image_id=13627" alt="Click for Website"></img> (http://www.dualsportriding.com/)

[Frodo]

Where did you get it? Through the website?

Can I borrow for a look?

Thanks

[James Deuce]

They're an uncommunicative bunch, who spend more time riding then the rest of us put togther.

To become one I think you are supposed to crash your arse off for years as a learning experience, then become super grumpy.

You're supposed to "do" not "read", you see.

[twotyred]

I found this DVD very good for learning the basics.

<img src="http://www.dualsportriding.com/images/?image_id=13627" alt="Click for Website"></img> (http://www.dualsportriding.com/)

I've been planning on getting this too, it's put together by Neduro from ADVrider and there is much info and praise for it over there.

[JATZ]

Where did you get it? Through the website?

Can I borrow for a look?

Thanks
Ordered a copy the other day, your more than welcome to borrow it after I've had a look at it.

[Padmei]

Ordered a copy the other day, your more than welcome to borrow it after I've had a look at it.

You must have one hell of a library by now Jatz. Do you issue cards?

[young1]

The most important thing that I find when the going gets rough etc is to stand up, this lowers the centre of gravity on the bike, it will let the bike move around without you noticing it as much etc

[James Deuce]

The most important thing that I find when the going gets rough etc is to stand up, this lowers the centre of gravity on the bike, it will let the bike move around without you noticing it as much etc

No it doesn't. It raises the centre of mass.

Standing allows your legs and arms to act as extra shock absorbers, and you have more leverage on the pegs.

[cooneyr]

.....Counter-steering is not optional.....

....Off-road you generally tip the bike in more than the body......

....brake beforehand, aka "control your speed".....


I'm defiantly a noobie when it comes to bikes but there is one more thing I'd add to WW's very good advice about cornering - accelerate through the corner. This means you must do most if not all of the braking before the corner and then once into the corner you get on the gas. How much gas depends on experience and desired effect. If you are still getting use gravel riding then gently on the gas or if you want to power slide around the corner give it a controlled fist full.The point of accelerating is that is makes the rear shock/wheel do the work and unloads the forks/front wheel. The front tracks much better and it is much easier to control a rear wheel slide than a front if things get interesting.

It is easiest to feel this effect and get use to it on corners around 50-60kph. When corners are too tight then the bikes doesn't react quick enough for the rider to feel the full effect. At high speed corners you don't need the effect quite so much so again don't feel it. The rainbow road between Hanmer and the Gorge is a really good place to try this out. Just remember to slow down again between the Gorge and St Arnuad less you end up in a ditch - DAMHIK.

Another tip - when things get slippery and the wheels are slipping (braking or acceleration) the bike will always try to go to the lowest point of the track in a sideways direction. Easy solution is to ride in the bottom of the ruts unless you really don't want to be cause of deep water, ruts to deep etc. Same applies to traversing sideways across slopes if a wheel slides it will go down hill. Solution (if possible) is to go directly up/down the slope and then traverse along the flatter areas at the top/bottom.

Lastly if things do get slippery (not bumpy) - stand up. I've only just learnt this one in the last year or so but have noticed it can be really beneficial. Best place to realise the benefit is when riding along long shallow slippery ruts. If sitting down it is hard to keep the bike going in a dead straight line and not bounce of the side of the rut. This means most people slow down and fight the bike harder to keep in a straight line. If you stand up and maintain a bit of speed it is much easier to keep control. By standing up if the bike gets a bit off line you can lean the bike (spread you knees and lean on the bars - counter steering in a way) to keep things pointing in the right direction. If this is not comfortable the other option is to sit down and stick one leg out sideways and use it for balance - standing up is much better though.

My avatar pic was taken after I had just ridden about 500m up a steep gravel road covered in snow at around 10kph with the rear wheel spinning most of the way. By standing up I could keep control right down to less than walking pace till the bike got traction and was able to pic up speed again. Was a very satisfying experience getting up that slope with almost no effort from myself.

Opps this post got a little long :doh: Hope it helps.

Cheers R

[Crisis management]

Good idea this, I don't know that I have a lot to contribute in written form but wonder whether we (collectively) should take the opportunity to consider what help we give to new riders.
Maybe new riders need to stick their hands up and say "I need help here" rather than stoically trying to keep up.
I am loath to start talking about mentoring as that always seems to require obligation and red tape on the mentors part and I certainly haven't got time for that, I do however have time for spending 30 minutes showing someone the basics during a day ride if they ask.

So, my helpful tip is......ask for help!

[pete376403]

If you are still getting use gravel riding then genitally on the gas or if you want to power slide around the corner give it a controlled fist full.Cheers R

Are we talking about riding or wanking here? "genitally on the gas" ... "controlled fist full" ...?
Enquiring minds, etc.

:rolleyes:

[cooneyr]

Are we talking about riding or wanking here? "genitally on the gas" ... "controlled fist full" ...?
Enquiring minds, etc.

:rolleyes:

I is an engineer and I cnt spell (or do grammar). I'll blame that "cock up" on Mozilla's spell checker. Thought it didn't look right.

Cheers R

[warewolf]

The most important thing that I find when the going gets rough etc is to stand up, this lowers the centre of gravity on the bike, it will let the bike move around without you noticing it as much etcGood advice, but...


No it doesn't. It raises the centre of mass.

Standing allows your legs and arms to act as extra shock absorbers, and you have more leverage on the pegs.++1, ya beat me to it!

[NordieBoy]

Good advice, but...

++1, ya beat me to it!

Yeah, I was going to respond but stopped my fingers from finging in time :D

[trustme]

So how the hell do I get through the really thick heavy metal that has the front end of my bike flapping around like a stunned mullet. Do I just gas it, hold on & pray, Will lowering pressure make a lot of difference, will going to a more radical tyre [EO7 currently] help.
I must admit I dont normally lower air pressure as I think I will bugger rims with the short travel suspension that continually bottoms out & I have fitted Racetech springs etc

[NordieBoy]

Will lowering pressure make a lot of difference, will going to a more radical tyre [EO7 currently] help.

What pressure are you currently running?
I'd be thinking with the weight of that bike at least 25f/30r?

[CookMySock]

eh? You're not going fast are you ? Just give it rings, and when you fall off, laugh! It's hilarious! :laugh:


Steve

[trustme]

What pressure are you currently running?
I'd be thinking with the weight of that bike at least 25f/30r?

30/34 . I always thought pressure affected grip/traction & that is not the problem , more directional control/stability would be nice . The front pushes & feels like it wants to tuck under if you know what I mean
Will standing help. I think while this may raise the overall mass , because your weight goes directly onto the pegs not the seat it does reduce the cog of the bike & gives it more stability, I think that is what Young1 was getting at
Let us know when you next fall off DB , we could all do with a good laugh

[cooneyr]

So how the hell do I get through the really thick heavy metal that has the front end of my bike flapping around like a stunned mullet. Do I just gas it, hold on & pray, Will lowering pressure make a lot of difference, will going to a more radical tyre [EO7 currently] help.
I must admit I dont normally lower air pressure as I think I will bugger rims with the short travel suspension that continually bottoms out & I have fitted Racetech springs etc

From playing in the pea gravel riverbeds around Canty, standing and powering through the really soft bits to lighten the front end helps.

Cheers R

[Peril]

So how the hell do I get through the really thick heavy metal that has the front end of my bike flapping around like a stunned mullet. Do I just gas it, hold on & pray, Will lowering pressure make a lot of difference, will going to a more radical tyre [EO7 currently] help.
I must admit I dont normally lower air pressure as I think I will bugger rims with the short travel suspension that continually bottoms out & I have fitted Racetech springs etc


I have found with the Tenere being front heavy,that bum just off the seat,knees bent and sort of pulling back/shifting weight backwards seems to help as it's taking a bit of my weight of the front end.

I also suggest,for those that have bikes they're not scared of dropping etc,taking them out in forestry areas and riding the tracks and trails there as it provides a lot of the techniques that's explained here.
That's basically how I've learned to ride my tank and learn to manhandle it through tracks that most enduro riders would do in their sleep.

[warewolf]

So how the hell do I get through the really thick heavy metal that has the front end of my bike flapping around like a stunned mullet.Burst of throttle to make the front end light (forks extended and at their most supple) and push it through the loose material with some positive force, shifts the weight to the rear wheel/shock which is still on the firm stuff. Let the front flap, the bike is being held steady by the driving rear end.

When the front is through, ease off the throttle as the back comes through, the weight transfers to the front which is now on the firm stuff.

[3L4NS1R]

I do however have time for spending 30 minutes showing someone the basics during a day ride if they ask.


I'm keen for some day rides, would rather learn it properly than try teach myself and drop my bike needlessly...

[OV Lander]

Guys, guys, guys what a response - Absolutely awesome!

There is heaps of stuff in here which confirms that I am doing somethings right, and gives me heaps of other stuff to try and to think about - like doing 50+kmph round a corner on gravel - still sitting here on 40 at present, but comforted to know nobody really likes the loose stuff!

Will definately be trying to track down the video, and look into the Kwaka course - if they'll take Beemers?

Mostly though guys, I really appreciate the time you've spent on your responses - so much solid advice. Thanks. I'll be sure to let you know how I get on.

Glad to see others coming out of the woodwork and asking questions too.

[OV Lander]

Thanks for the link Jim - DVD Ordered!

[topo]

One thing i hve found on the PD is that having a full tank of gas (35lts) settles the bike no end, goes from being "wishy-washy" at 60-70km/h to stable as rock at 110 on the same section of road:yes:.
If you really want to go faster on gravel just get a GS of early 90's vinage, the lack of brakes removes the ability to slow down, therefore A-B=faster:Punk:

[Balrog]

Thanks for the link Jim - DVD Ordered!

No problems
I learned a lot from watching it & I still go out and do the riding exercises.
Really improved my ability in handling the GS

:yes:

[magicfairy]

No problems
I learned a lot from watching it & I still go out and do the riding exercises.
Really improved my ability in handling the GS

:yes:


Now he can go MUCH faster off-road, great fun for the pillion ...

NOT :eek:

[cave weta]

I have been putting on trail skills training days once a month since the end of last summer. Most of my participants are the owners of new trail bikes or people who have decided to get back into it after a few years of bringing up kids. either that or they want to get the kids up to speed so that the family can enjoy time out there together.

Ok so these people are not wrestling 200kg - $20,000 bikes up hills but I'm sure that a day with me on the slippery clay will help your sphincter to relax a little next time you have to cross slippery wooden farm bridges or weave your way through snot covered river rocks under 12" of fast flowing water.

Go HERE http://www.overthetopadventures.co.nz/coaching-clinic.htm
or HERE http://www.silver-bullet.co.nz/event.php?id=6186

[Padmei]

Excellent help guys. The recurring theme seems to be not to be afraid of using the throttle around corners. Unfortunately it is the reverse reaction to what my instincts often tell me. Teaching my instincts may be in order.

I often find my gravel riding is better on the way back. I put this down to being a little more tired/ relaxed & thinking of a good cup of coffee & scone:love:

Maybe on the next Nelson rideout we can get some more pointers.

I may have to try some risers on Gonzo as when riding standing up my arms are still pulled down & back - can't really get into a neutral position.

[JATZ]

I may have to try some risers on Gonzo as when riding standing up my arms are still pulled down & back - can't really get into a neutral position.

I felt I was always pulling myself forward to hold on when standing up untill I shifted my feet back on the pegs about an inch maybe, feels much more neutral now, just gotta get the hang of changing gears while standing now.

[Oscar]

Buy yourself a cheap dirtbike, take it to a track or waste land and practice.

There is no substitute for time on the bike, on varying terrain types. A lighter (cheaper) bike will allow you to get the hang of the bike moving around on slippery terrain and the consequences of a fall are limited (both physically and fiscally).

Kenny Roberts Snr is famous for his ranch full of XR100's. Gun Grand Prix riders (like Eddie Lawson & Randy Mamola) would race these things around a dirt track for practice and enjoyment.

I have the opposite problem to OVLander lately, I love gravel roads and any kind of off road, but have a real problem with wet tarmac (after a couple of "moments" recently). After years of exclusively riding off-road or on gravel, I find myself very tentative on a wet road - to be fair, having a 100hp/200kg bike on knobblies is a big ask, but I find myself lagging behind my contemporaries. The irony is that I can go faster of wet gravel than I can on wet seal...

One observation I would make, having watched some of guys ride recently is that a lot of adventure riders ride on gravel like it's gravel. Like it's really deep, and evenly distributed. This means every corner is set up for a brake slide and a power exit. The fact is that most gravel roads have two worn tracks in them, whereby in the dry there actually a lot of traction. They can be ridden quite hard as if on seal and without any particular dirt riding techniques employed apart from being aware of front wheel traction. Oh, and the other tip I have for going a leetle bit faster on a big bike is when cornering (on or off road), change up one gear from normal. Hitting the apex deep into your bikes powerband makes it feel busy and difficult to handle, whereas if you change up chances are you'll torque it out the bend and be much smoother (difficult to explain - just try it).

[Ocean1]

just gotta get the hang of changing gears while standing now.

Change gear? On a fookin' big single like that?

Seriously, one of the things I used to notice about the quick dudes in the short time I got to view them is how they seem to slot a reasonably tall gear and just leave it there. Bit of clutch in the tight bits and just grunt away down the straight bits. :done:

[pampa]

I've collected a few links with riding techniques that I found usefull (some of them provided by known very good riders like Jimmy Lewis).

http://www.gunsmoke.com/vacations/jimmy_lewis_2005/index.html
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=232895&page=1
http://www.africabiketours.com/GravelRiding.html

On the first one you can extract a few drills you can practice (I've summarised at the end).

As a note I'd never been offroad before last year and while still a noob I'm a little bit more confident (very little :p) but much better than before trying them. This is the list of tips extracted from the course, hope it helps since they're from my notes

1. We were to weight and un-weight the foot pegs left to right and observe that weight on inside peg steers bike in that direction
2. Next up was a rear braking drill where we were to skid to a stop in a straight line
3. used a mark to slide rear end out to one side, again braking to a stop. Caution: do not to let up on the brake until stopped, as doing so would probably result in a high side, with us being thrown off the machines
4. The ultimate evolution of this maneuver was to turn slightly to the left or right and skid rear wheel, again to a stop
4.1. Note: During all of this we kept the speed low, no more than 20 MPH or so, and we used only the rear brake, always leaving it on until we stopped.
5. This is intended only to get used to the feeling of the front wheel skidding. While giving bike gas, gradually apply the front brake until front wheel skide. Then released the brake when bike started to fall or otherwise misbehave. The idea is to see how far we could skid the front wheel, and still keep control of the motorcycle
6. The emergency stop drill combined front and rear braking. It is a four step process:
6.1. roll off the throttle,
6.2. pull in the clutch,
6.3. butt goes back but stays above seat,
6.4. arms out front but not stiff,
6.5. then hit the back brake while modulating front.
6.6. Note: That’s a lot to remember all at once, so start slow and deliberate, gradually reducing the time between each step until it become one very short sequence. Done properly, the bike would come to a full stop and we could keep it balanced while we chose which foot to put down. Usually though, we’d be just a little unbalanced at the end and be reaching out with a foot to keep from falling over. Jimmy had us practice until we could pick which foot to use, an especially tricky feat if you wanted to put your right foot down.
7. wheelie
8. Riding in circles.
8.1. Weight the outside peg, with the inside foot of the peg (sitting on the saddle).
8.2. Pointing the inside foot (leg straight and outstretched) controlled the radious of the circle.
8.2.1. Point the inside foot forward and you get a wide circle
8.2.2. Move the inside foot back toward the page an the circle magically tightens
8.2.3. slid your fanny off the seat to the outside of the circle, still weighting the outside peg, and decrease speed. the circle tightened even more
9. Sliding from one outside position to the opposite side smoothly flipped the bike into turning in the opposite direction
10. Emergency stops, but this time the task is to transmit as fast as possible from max acceleration to max braking. Doing the following
10.1. Whack open the throttle
10.2. then roll off,
10.3. pull in the clutch,
10.4. butt back and off the seat,
10.5. arms outstretched,
10.6. quickly but smoothly apply both and rear brake,
10.7. and pick the side you want your foot to come down on, the right side for extra points :D
11. The barrel race, doing
11.1. accelerate hard toward a cone,
11.2. brake and
11.3. slide out the rear wheel to set up for a turn around the cone,
11.4. slip your butt off the seat to the outside,
11.5. wight the outside peg,
11.6. circle the cone once
11.7. then straighten out the bike and accelerate hard toward the finish line
11.8. then emergency brake to the line
12. Going steep downhill, how to balance the bike on the hill
12.1. Killing the motor while in gear and
12.2. letting the clutch act like a rear brake, stressing on maintaining balance, and not wear ourselves out holding up the motorcycle
12.3. Coming down, he used the clutch and front brake to walk the bike would inch forward as the front suspension extended and the rear collapsed.
12.4. then hold front brake,
12.5. release the clutch, the front end would collapse while the back came up allowing the bike will inch forward again.
12.5.1. Note: the beauty of this technique is that it freed either foot to hold the bike up, and still retained perfect control of forward progress.
13. Going steep uphill,
14. Crossing washes, the best technique is
14.1. standing on the pegs,
14.2. legs slightly flexed,
14.3. no weight on my hands, loose grip on bars
14.4. keep balance on the pegs and let the bike move under you
14.5. slow before entering a wash, then accelerate slightly or use steady throttle through loose stuff
14.6. steering by weighting your feet would work much better than steering with the bars


Cheers

[JATZ]

Change gear? On a fookin' big single like that?

Seriously, one of the things I used to notice about the quick dudes in the short time I got to view them is how they seem to slot a reasonably tall gear and just leave it there. Bit of clutch in the tight bits and just grunt away down the straight bits. :done:

I love that second gear, useable from idle revs until it just about shakes you off the bike

[cooneyr]

...I may have to try some risers on Gonzo as when riding standing up my arms are still pulled down & back - can't really get into a neutral position.

I'm 6'2" with long arms (ape - finger tip to finger tip is longer than I am tall) and was never comfortable standing. I bent my steel bars on a ride and started looking into what bend bars to get. I ended up with 971 bend renthals (see here (http://www.renthal.com/File/apps1.asp?tabtype=5&productid=0&appid=MOTOCROSS/ENDURO&zone=&biketype=&manufacturer=&model=&bikedate=)). These bars are further forward than most and are about as far forward as you can get. Cause the 971's are not overly tall I stuck 30mm risers on as well (check that the cables can reach first!). While height is important the bend of the bar makes a big difference as well.

Cheers R

[Oscar]

I'm 6'2" with long arms (ape - finger tip to finger tip is longer than I am tall) and was never comfortable standing. I bent my steel bars on a ride and started looking into what bend bars to get. I ended up with 971 bend renthals (see here (http://www.renthal.com/File/apps1.asp?tabtype=5&productid=0&appid=MOTOCROSS/ENDURO&zone=&biketype=&manufacturer=&model=&bikedate=)). These bars are further forward than most and are about as far forward as you can get. Cause the 971's are not overly tall I stuck 30mm risers on as well (check that the cables can reach first!). While height is important the bend of the bar makes a big difference as well.

Cheers R

I just put 25mm risers on the 950 bars (and I have a set for the 640).
I'm just over six foot, and it makes things much more comfortable when standing (wish I done it ages ago).

[warewolf]

One thing i hve found on the PD is that having a full tank of gas (35lts) settles the bike no end, goes from being "wishy-washy" at 60-70km/h to stable as rock at 110 on the same section of road:yes:Two potential reasons for this. Firstly my Triumph Triple exhibits the same behaviour, it has a 25L tank and feels much more planted with a full tank. It's kinda symptomatic of the suspension not being right, ie it is better at full load than at partial.

Secondly, a big tank partially full creates petrol tsunamis. I've spoken with PD riders who have biffed the big 35L tank in favour of the 15L(?) for technical work. The big tank allows the partial load to slosh around. Riding transalper's DR650 with the big tank, after tipping the bike in to a corner (or getting on the brakes hard), the petrol would slosh forward slightly delayed from the chassis of the bike moving, and make the front wheel suddenly lurch & break traction, after the bike was settled from the original input. Not very nice!


The recurring theme seems to be not to be afraid of using the throttle around corners. Unfortunately it is the reverse reaction to what my instincts often tell me. Teaching my instincts may be in order.Read some Keith Code - I have all the books if you want to borrow them, the vid has gone out on permanent loan somewhere - he says it is wrong to say someone has "natural talent" when it comes to riding. It is an un-natural skill that must be learnt, and one of his key tenets is to over-ride inappropriate survival reactions with the appropriate skill. (Actually it is to understand what triggers them, why they aren't right, and how to avoid them triggering by understanding what is happening and what the right action is.)

The phrase "if in doubt, power out" is applicable here, mostly. One of the reasons people who rode dirt bikes as kids - especially those who never stopped - are highly competent off-road is that they learnt to ride somewhat aggressively from a sense of youthful invincibility, or peer pressure, or lots of time mucking around on bikes, or any combination thereof. I've watched other people riding and often thought, "the only reason he got through there okay was because he didn't have the balls to back off!" and later you hear in the pits or the pub, "feck I nearly crashed there but I kept it tapped, prayed, and it all stayed together".

[warewolf]

I just put 25mm risers on the 950 bars (and I have a set for the 640).
I'm just over six foot, and it makes things much more comfortable when standing (wish I done it ages ago).The 640A has 18mm risers standard, and they are 10-15mm too short for my 5'7" (and I too have a good ape factor).

I'm sure once I bother to get the extra rise, I'll wish I did it ages ago!!

[Padmei]

The only prob with having bars bent forward which is what I'd like is one side already hits the scren on full lock with the hand guards on.

[cooneyr]

The only prob with having bars bent forward which is what I'd like is one side already hits the scren on full lock with the hand guards on.

Should mentioned this catch as well. The DR was obviously not an issue and the guards touch just a little bit on the XTZ. F650 GS/Dakars have reasonably well raked bars cause of this issue.

Cheers R

[NordieBoy]

Maybe on the next Nelson rideout we can get some more pointers.

I may have to try some risers on Gonzo as when riding standing up my arms are still pulled down & back - can't really get into a neutral position.

You need to have a go on some other bikes to see if one is set up to let you stand properly/comfortably and modify gonzo to suit.

[pete376403]

When I first got my KLR the bars were too far back, was like riding a wheelbarrow.* I've rotated the bars forward, then adjusted the clutch/brake levers. The handguards are about 10 -15mm from the fairing on full lock but the bars are fine for standing up.









*(waits for gratuitous comments about KLRs not being anywhere near as good as wheelbarrows...)

[NordieBoy]

*(waits for gratuitous comments about KLRs not being anywhere near as good as wheelbarrows...)

Depends. What colour wheelbarrow?

[Crisis management]

The only prob with having bars bent forward which is what I'd like is one side already hits the scren on full lock with the hand guards on.

Can you adjust the lock stops to prevent this? A small loss of turning circle would be a small price to pay. If the lockstops aren't adjustable fix a lump of steel/epoxy stuff to pack out the stop.


*(waits for gratuitous comments about KLRs not being anywhere near as good as wheelbarrows...)

Whats this gratuitous stuff, I expect to get paid for my 2c worth.



PS. Pink wheelbarrows.

[merv]

As one who has ridden fast on gravel for years I'm with Oscar on the "there is no substitute for time on the bike" theory and the reason is with dirt riding there never is two bits of terrain the same. You have to learn the feel of the bike, its tyres, its weight distribution and all that stuff relative to the terrain right at the moment in time which is varying all the time. No fixed advice can be given and I am sure if you went to a training school you'll learn quite a lot, but then you've got to be able to react to different situations than you learnt.

I can only speak for what I think makes me go quick and given I am a short arse and reasonably light (or used to be) then if someone else swapped bikes with me but they were different stature and weight they would have to ride differently. Unless you are on a really rough track then don't bother standing up. On a typical gravel road and remembering what Oscar said too about the two wheel tracks, you'll be faster sitting down and riding more like you would on the road. Try and keep the bike as straight as you can and as upright as you can so you can accelerate without much loss of traction. You want forward drive not some excessive Hollywood sliding like you're being filmed on a flat track.

I sit well forward on the bike, except on thick gravel, then you need to move your arse back and lighten the front. How much depends on how it feels, and that's the thing you've got to get used to understanding what you're feeling.

Always two finger front brake into corners changing down as you go into the corner and steady with the rear brake and then power out as others have said.

Practice, practice, practice.

[pampa]

As someone that is learning relatively lately on life I agree with that of 'practice practice practice' ... but :shutup:

in my case it also helped to have some sort of guidelines and drills I could do without getting to scared as sometimes happens on real life track (road/whatever). You get all sorts of questions on how can I do this or that and of course there will be many ways of doing it but well knowing how is done by someone with experience may help. As in all sports I believe that helps splitting the real deal in small easy to practice drills.

of course I'm not very in courageous, so rather learn on a relatively secure way rather than getting scared to death and therefore not really able to learn much , but hey :laugh: that's me



As one who has ridden fast on gravel for years I'm with Oscar on the "there is no substitute for time on the bike" theory and the reason is with dirt riding there never is two bits of terrain the same. You have to learn the feel of the bike, its tyres, its weight distribution and all that stuff relative to the terrain right at the moment in time which is varying all the time. No fixed advice can be given and I am sure if you went to a training school you'll learn quite a lot, but then you've got to be able to react to different situations than you learnt.

I can only speak for what I think makes me go quick and given I am a short arse and reasonably light (or used to be) then if someone else swapped bikes with me but they were different stature and weight they would have to ride differently. Unless you are on a really rough track then don't bother standing up. On a typical gravel road and remembering what Oscar said too about the two wheel tracks, you'll be faster sitting down and riding more like you would on the road. Try and keep the bike as straight as you can and as upright as you can so you can accelerate without much loss of traction. You want forward drive not some excessive Hollywood sliding like you're being filmed on a flat track.

I sit well forward on the bike, except on thick gravel, then you need to move your arse back and lighten the front. How much depends on how it feels, and that's the thing you've got to get used to understanding what you're feeling.

Always two finger front brake into corners changing down as you go into the corner and steady with the rear brake and then power out as others have said.

Practice, practice, practice.

[warewolf]

As one who has ridden fast on gravel for years I'm with Oscar on the "there is no substitute for time on the bike" theory and the reason is with dirt riding there never is two bits of terrain the same. You have to learn the feel of the bike, its tyres, its weight distribution and all that stuff relative to the terrain right at the moment in time which is varying all the time. No fixed advice can be given and I am sure if you went to a training school you'll learn quite a lot, but then you've got to be able to react to different situations than you learnt.Oh don't be silly. Are you seriously suggesting dirt riding skills can't be taught?! Have you done any off-road training?

Training courses should give you a tool box of techniques to apply to any situation, including how to choose which tool when and how much.

Once you know what you should be doing, then you can go out and practice practice practice. Time on the bike has a significant drawback, in that you could always be doing the wrong thing. One trainer expressed it thus:

"Do you have ten years' experience?
Or one years' experience, ten times over?"

[NordieBoy]

"Do you have ten years' experience?
Or one years' experience, ten times over?"

My gravel riding skillz were more like 1 month of experience 120 times over.
Then I finally got the courage up to give it a handful in a corner and it worked! :headbang:

And I didn't die! :cool:

[merv]

Oh don't be silly. Are you seriously suggesting dirt riding skills can't be taught?!


No, I think you missed the main point of what I was saying. To put it another way, all the theory in the world will only be part of the story, the learning the "feel" of the bike in relation to the terrain in my view is the most important thing. That's was also Oscar's point about "there is no substitute for time on the bike" .

When you answered OV Lander's questions above you effectively said a similar thing with your "as general rule, riding off-road (anything non-tarmac) you have to get used to the bike moving around, and you balancing the bike. The bike is no longer "fixed" to the surface, so the techniques are different (or less forgiving of errors)".

You also seem to be ignoring the later paragraphs in my post where I did give some advice based on what works for me.

[warewolf]

OK, I'm confused.

[monchopper]

Whether you've done some formal training courses or not you still need to do the miles before what you've learned comes naturally. By naturally I mean reacting without thinking.

It's a bit like taking ski lessons everytime you go, sure you're going to have a great technique but you'll miss all fun of just doing it. You have to find a balance.

It's always worth remembering that the guy with the best technique who arrives 15 minutes before you isn't necessarily having more fun than you.

[merv]

OK, I'm confused.

Well I'll try again, are we not all really saying similar things but with a difference of weighting of significance? We can't answer his questions with hard and fast must do's, but we can suggest he learns some theory - you called it getting the "toolbox of techniques" - and do some practice.

You seem to have a bias towards more theory than I would say, whereas I say learning the feel of the bike and the terrain has a greater importance.

The total of the two (theory and practice) is where the answer lies.

I went on to talk about what works for one person (as in me) might not work for someone else, hence the "feel" thing, but I described what works for me as advice that could be tried but I wouldn't be offended if it never worked for anyone else. This is so obvious when you consider racing and see how different people have their bikes set up differently so you cannot give advice and say "there you go, it will work perfectly for you, just do that".

As an example I have been surprised lately to see people standing up riding on smooth gravel roads while I go past them and wonder who is teaching that. They are up there in the wind with no need to absorb any large bumps in their legs (like you need to on MX tracks) so why do that? Its not that you need large amounts of body movement to control the bike on smooth gravel is my view. So this is but one example of where people have to do what "feels" right for them and be damned what I say just because it works for me. The theory of dirt riding is not a "black and white" science.

Are you still confused?

[warewolf]

of course I'm not very in courageous, so rather learn on a relatively secure way rather than getting scared to death and therefore not really able to learn much , but hey :laugh: that's meLearning is best when you extend yourself in small increments - outside the comfort zone but not so far away you can't retreat. You want to be somewhat uncertain of the outcome, but not so scared shitless all you do is panic! Nothing wrong with being circumspect about it all.

Mick Doohan was renowned for being able to pick up a quarter-mph difference in corner speed. He'd just go faster and faster in quarter-mph increments until he found the limit. If he had to catch a slide, traction was only a quarter-mph away. Others would just barrel in several mph faster and crash irretrievably, or stay that several mph slower than the limit. Mick's perception and control was just that much better, giving him a more effective learning mechanism.

PS Just for crisis:
http://pinkwheelbarrow.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/02/08/annie_in_barrow_small.jpg

[merv]

Mick Doohan was renowned for being able to pick up a quarter-mph difference in corner speed. He'd just go faster and faster in quarter-mph increments until he found the limit. If he had to catch a slide, traction was only a quarter-mph away. Others would just barrel in several mph faster and crash irretrievably, or stay that several mph slower than the limit. Mick's perception and control was just that much better, giving him a more effective learning mechanism.


Ah, practice, practice, practice :lol:

[CrazyFrog]

Hey Colin, are you gonna fit 25mm risers to that wheelbarrow? I think it'll sort the handling no end.

[bart]

I was brought up on a farm with gravel for miles in all directions. Did thousands of miles of gravel on dirt bikes. I was absolutely petrified of the stuff. It's only now, after some road bike experience, that I'm going back to gravel and enjoying it.

I don't know what it is, but for me a mixture of on and off road skills are required.

[trustme]

Now I'm confused.
I figured next time I came to one of those horrible sections of heavy thick gravel I would stand, get the weight back & power on. Then Merv says 'Nah park your arse on the seat'

Mostly I ride seated , lean the bike in & weight the outside peg, mostly it works. When it is tight with lots of holes ,ruts & quick change of direction is needed I stand.

IE , on the MMMM ride , in the Pureora & Kaiangaroa forests every time the going got really shitty I stood up, Out of Tiniroto we struck a section of newly layed thick gravel, no one liked it , but I just could not carry any momentum.

PS I'm not convinced that lower tyre pressures will make a lot of difference in that situation or am I completely wrong

[Motu]

Lots of different ways to say the same things.I'd read some theories then go for a ride.And Oscar's suggestion of a smaller bike is best - no way can you push a big bike hard and over it's limits all day....and still be laughing on the way home.Get an XR200 or something similar and thrash it to death....crash 100 times before you go home.Make it do things it can't...make it do things you can't...then make those things cans.You can do this on a small bike you paid peanuts for,you wouldn't do them on your nice shiny expensive bike.

The bike is important,and for some reason a really good bike by someone's theory is bad for you....and the bike they hate you will love.I can't ride a big bike off road (some have seen this) but I am very happy on smaller bikes,so I will stick to those.Standing up on gravel is dumb.

[Underground]

Ah, practice, practice, practice :lol:

Yeah, and heres one you can practice in the safety of your own cul de sac.
Slow standing figure 8's ... Ride figure 8's as slow as possible whilst standing on the pegs and using full lock .
When you have got this one mastered a lot of other gravel road techniques will start to fall into place . Thats my tip o the day

[NordieBoy]

Yeah, and heres one you can practice in the safety of your own cul de sac.
Slow standing figure 8's ... Ride figure 8's as slow as possible whilst standing on the pegs and using full lock .
When you have got this one mastered a lot of other gravel road techniques will start to fall into place . Thats my tip o the day

Helps when the cul-de-sac is on a gravel road in the French Pass though :D

[bart]

Yeah, and heres one you can practice in the safety of your own cul de sac.
Slow standing figure 8's ... Ride figure 8's as slow as possible whilst standing on the pegs and using full lock .
When you have got this one mastered a lot of other gravel road techniques will start to fall into place . Thats my tip o the day

Good call. Having never owned a bike where I could touch the ground with both feet, I spent a lot of time doing just that.

[merv]

Now I'm confused.
I figured next time I came to one of those horrible sections of heavy thick gravel I would stand, get the weight back & power on. Then Merv says 'Nah park your arse on the seat'

PS I'm not convinced that lower tyre pressures will make a lot of difference in that situation or am I completely wrong

Hey don't get confused, go back to what I was saying about feel of the bike and the terrain. There is a difference between a gravel road with thickish gravel and say really thick soft gravel like on a beach and it also depends on the speed you are trying to go so every situation needs a different approach.

When you say "heavy thick" I presume you are talking beach type gravel and sure I would say there is many a time I would stand up on that sort of terrain because if its already got tracks through it you've got to keep good balance. Its rare to find a gravel road that soft and gravel so deep as to warrant getting up on the pegs.

The closest I got to that was on the Kerosene Ridge Adventure ride back in 2001 when I was on my DR250RW and there was some really thick gravel near Te Awaiti I think it was and trying to ride it tapped out the bike was trying to tank slap the whole way - I tried sitting forward, tried sitting back, tried weighting the pegs and nothing really worked well. Sitting back was slightly better and I didn't want to slow down so just put up with the total oscillatory motion. If you are trying to do about 100 or more for sustained periods standing up just doesn't work in the wind.

Funny thing was we went over those same roads once I'd got the WR and no problem. So it was more about the weight of the bike and set up I reckon. The DR was heavy compared to the WR and with somewhat different geometry so the bike does make a real difference. Motu made that point.

So you've just got to try stuff at the time until you get the best ride because the terrain aint going to be just like the last stuff you rode.

Now tyre pressures - from my experience that is so tyre type dependent and terrain dependent also. Low tyre pressures are best on slippery surfaces no matter what type of tyre - read hard slippery clay or mud type surfaces.

With knobbly tyres on gravel low tyre pressures are fine - I run my WR with about 10 -14 psi max. Knobblies on the bikes we've had are definitely the best for gravel, but we have not had big traillies - like Motu we prefer smaller lighter dirt bikes.

On gravel roads though I have been surprised to find that with the other three bikes we have with road oriented type adventure tyres, that's my XR and Mrs merv's XT250 and DR650, they are far easier to ride fast on gravel with reasonably high pressures - like 21 - 28 psi. At lower pressures they seem to roll around on the stones too much. I suppose its a bit like rally cars using skinny tyres in some situations - you need them sort of so they'll bite into the surface

[warewolf]

I think it is a matter of semantics, but as to the weighting I think we have to agree to disagree.

I just spent ages trying to write lots of clever stuff that wouldn't be misunderstood, but what it all boils down to is this: training gives your "getting a feel for it" some direction, so you get there sooner.

Training isn't about rigid military-style discipline, but rather giving you the knowledge to make informed decisions about your riding.

This is really a pub discussion for after a good ride!! :drinknsin

[merv]

I think it is a matter of semantics, but as to the weighting I think we have to agree to disagree.


Yeah agreed - haha :yes:

[warewolf]

Hey Colin, are you gonna fit 25mm risers to that wheelbarrow? I think it'll sort the handling no end.which end??

[NordieBoy]

On gravel roads though I have been surprised to find that with the other three bikes we have with road oriented type adventure tyres, that's my XR and Mrs merv's XT250 and DR650, they are far easier to ride fast on gravel with reasonably high pressures - like 21 - 28 psi. At lower pressures they seem to roll around on the stones too much. I suppose its a bit like rally cars using skinny tyres in some situations - you need them sort of so they'll bite into the surface
I used to use 18f/20r for adventurey riding but am migrating toward 25f/30r as I get more confidence in what the bike is doing.
I don't want the chance of a pinch flat and only have a rimlock on the back.

I use 32f/36r for day-to-day use and I've gone through the Maungatapu with it like that no problem.

[cooneyr]

Something I noticed since the DB this year is that once you have reasonable technique tyre pressures become less important for general gravel riding. Early this year I managed to destroy a rear D606 in about 2000km running it at 20psi (1000km was the Dusty Butt). The next tyre that went on was at 30psi for the run to the CCA in Welly, down to about 20 for the CCA and then back up to 30psi for the trip home and the trip we did over the Brass Monkey weekend. This tyre lasted over 3000km till I sold the bike with it about 3/4 worn.

The brass monkey weekend involved a fair bit of snow, mud and gravel. With the tyres at 30psi I recon I did better in the snow than the others at 20psi (cut through the snow and got better traction). I never had any real problems in the mud (black dirt pugged up by cows mainly) and the gravel was fine till I got to the deep (50-100mm) rutted loose gravel at the northern end of the Haka where technique was more important.

After this I didn't bother with 20psi again as the marginal increase in traction vs the large decrease in life didn't seem warranted. I'm 110kgs though so the same pressure will not be right for a smaller person and a different tyre will react differently to pressure as well. Point is - try a range of pressures and see what works for you. I'm positive there is no "correct" pressure as it depends on the bike/tyre/rider/terrain situation. I've now got to learn all of this again with the XTZ and a mitchy Desert (when the Desert finally bloody turns up :Pokey:)

I guess that raises a good point - pick a tyre and stick with it till you have learnt what works. Changing tyres all the time will mean you can never establish a base line.

Cheers R

[Balrog]

I'm proabaly sounding like a broken record here, ..here .. here .. here
( please tell me you know what a record is :) )

But the great thing about the Dual Sport Adventure riding DVD is it
explains not only how to do something but also why.

I always "get it" better when I understand why you do things, as opposed to
just how to do it.

[XF650]

I'v had my share of dramas getting back into gravel riding & still only re learning, This is all very frustrating because I didn't have these issues in my youth, riding XL250 Motosports on gravel all the time. However with some excellent advice from other KB adv riders on here, I have been able to sort a few of these issues out.

I assume this discussion is more about deep pea-gravel type roads, rather than well worn hard pack gravel with defined tracks. My bikes behaved differently in the thicker stuff - The Freewind would wobble around, verging on tank slapping, not helped by 19" front wheel. Main fix was more aggresive tyres to penetrate the gravel. The DT230 front tended to 'sledge' in corners, fixed by weighting the front more & also better tyres. On both bikes I had the suspension adjusted to suite my weight plus changed the gearing for better engine braking. Experimenting with tyre pressures also helped but this is very dependant on personal preference e.g. on recent Brass Monkey trip I shared my bikes with Rogson and his prefered tyre pressures were higher than mine, on same bikes, same roads.

But the most important thing I have been told is to practice. Practice counter steering & weighting the pegs, practice by deliberatly riding along the gravel mounds & avoiding the easy bits. Relax & let the bike move around, don't fight it. Practice emergency braking & changing your line. Find a difficult corner that is negative camber & slippery, then ride it time & again without cutting the corner.
Eventually something will click and it will all become easier.

[NordieBoy]

Eventually something will click and it will all become easier.

Yep. And it's a bloody good feeling when it does.

[OV Lander]

So what will it be: Practice or teaching?

The old adage of 'Practice makes perfect' is wrong, quite flatly I say this. In reality, 'Practice makes permanent'.

If we practice, practice, practice the wrong things then strangely enough those errors seem to become permanent.

In my case, and the reason for raising the 'Clinic', is that after a year of 'teaching myself' I can tell that what I am practising is not 100% - more like 10%!.

With the benefit of you good advice (and I'd like to thanks Pampas and the many others who have all taken the time to put on papaer - ahem, screen, practices, techniques and exercises) I can now go out and practice, practice, practice some more appropriate exercises.

I hope that from this point forward the 'time on the bike' will start to mean so much more.

On a different note - we've certainly got the forum going a bit - which is always good!

[OV Lander]

Well folks, with some glorious whether I have been out and about practicing a lot of the things you've been suggesting. Such as Sunday afternoon doing 5km/h figure of 8 loops on the beach - the MXers who were out there must have been wonderign what that nutter was doing out there on a BMW in the first place, yet alone only barley moving!

Also bought the DVD suggested by Jim (Geez, that kiwi dollars' lost a bit!) and have been practicising the exercises wherever I find suitable terrain.

All in all, I can confirm that things are coming along just fine.

Feeling much more confidence and happy to trust in the theory, allowing the bike to do the work. Still talking myself through it all at the moment, but things are beginning to feel natural for the first time. Body reacted quicker than the head this evening when the rear wheel wanted to go sideways - always a good thing when you are stepping yourself things at a pace of "so now I need to...". Sees a lot of the balance and positioning skills are similar to skiing - if only I'd worked that out a while back!

Beginning to ride faster, but consious of the need to practice the slow speed stuff and really bed in the skills.

Thanks team - I owe you all a beer... ...or two :beer: :beer:

[OV Lander]

Yep. And it's a bloody good feeling when it does.

Oh yeah! Had a couple of 'clicks' now and by hecky does it feel good!

[Motu]

But the most important thing I have been told is to practice. Practice counter steering & weighting the pegs, practice by deliberatly riding along the gravel mounds & avoiding the easy bits. Find a difficult corner that is negative camber & slippery, then ride it time & again without cutting the corner.
Eventually something will click and it will all become easier.

It's nice to get a feel good feeling when it clicks - but it's more important to do the nasty stuff you hate.I rode a shit load of gravel roads when I was younger...I made myself do it (on road bikes,clip on's even) because they scared me.It took a long till to get them sussed....and made them my preferred road.

[Padmei]

It's always worth remembering that the guy with the best technique who arrives 15 minutes before you isn't necessarily having more fun than you.

just reread this thread & this phrase stood out big time

[NordieBoy]

just reread this thread & this phrase stood out big time

Yep :D

[Oscar]

just reread this thread & this phrase stood out big time

Yabbut the guy that got there .15 seconds before you is having a lot more fun than you are...

[Padmei]

Yabbut the guy that got there .15 seconds before you is having a lot more fun than you are...

Bugger...

Just while we're on the subject, I know it now is personal riding style but do you guys sit forwrd in attack mode cornering or in laid back position? Does it make much diff to what the bike will do?

[Oscar]

Bugger...

Just while we're on the subject, I know it now is personal riding style but do you guys sit forwrd in attack mode cornering or in laid back position? Does it make much diff to what the bike will do?

Moving forward (sliding right up the seat) moves the mass over the front wheel, improving steering.

[Bass]

Bugger...

Just while we're on the subject, I know it now is personal riding style but do you guys sit forwrd in attack mode cornering or in laid back position? Does it make much diff to what the bike will do?

I'm something of a newby to Adv riding and the DR has a rep for being a bit light in the front end.
However, I have been given a few tips along the way by those in the know and the one that has made the most difference for me is getting my weight well forward in the corners. It has made the front end feel just so much more planted and given me heaps more confidence when the back end starts getting loose.
I find myself even encouraging the back end to break out these days - rear brake going in and power coming out. Being able to keep the front hooked up makes SOOOO much difference.
I'm finding that it depends on the surface and uphill/downhill though. The above works for me in gravel or dry dirt and somewhere near level going. Steep rocky or slippery stuff, I'm still trying to figure out and deep sand is another ball game altogether.
Water crossings I usually solve by falling off and then pushing it out, or stalling it and then pushing it out if I'm having a good day.

[Oscar]

I'm something of a newby to Adv riding and the DR has a rep for being a bit light in the front end.
However, I have been given a few tips along the way by those in the know and the one that has made the most difference for me is getting my weight well forward in the corners. It has made the front end feel just so much more planted and given me heaps more confidence when the back end starts getting loose.
I find myself even encouraging the back end to break out these days - rear brake going in and power coming out. Being able to keep the front hooked up makes SOOOO much difference.
I'm finding that it depends on the surface and uphill/downhill though. The above works for me in gravel or dry dirt and somewhere near level going. Steep rocky or slippery stuff, I'm still trying to figure out and deep sand is another ball game altogether.
Water crossings I usually solve by falling off and then pushing it out, or stalling it and then pushing it out if I'm having a good day.

Deep sand is a bit of a mind game.
Sit back and allow the front to hunt around a little bit power on to get the thing on top of the sand and keep it throttled up to stop it digging in.

Water crossing are interesting. I've a theory that hitting cold water with a hot bike fucks up the mixture and makes it stall. Cracking the choke slightly seems to help.

[Bass]

Deep sand is a bit of a mind game.

Ain't that the truth



Sit back and allow the front to hunt around a little bit power on to get the thing on top of the sand and keep it throttled up to stop it digging in.

I don't have too much trouble with dunes and flat beaches anymore. I think it was Offrd who said to me that 80 k was good and that 100 k was better. I'm no expert but I get by.
However, in Oz I would be blasting down some road at about 120 k and because everything is the same colour I would suddenly find myself in a rut in deep sand. Road level was suddenly axle height at times.
Everything seemed to be OK - like the bike was much easier to ride than it was at 10 or 20 k, but this is where the mind game thing came in. I kept thinking about how many extra pieces I could give my skeleton if I fucked up.
What really had me filling my pants was that it was just as chancey to slow down as it was to keep the power on. When the sides of the rut started to grab that front wheel, I was in deep doodoo.


Water crossing are interesting. I've a theory that hitting cold water with a hot bike fucks up the mixture and makes it stall. Cracking the choke slightly seems to help.

Sounds like I'm not entirely alone then.

[johannvr]

Sounds like I'm not entirely alone then.


No, yer not. Anybody ever seen me & the DR trying to negotiate Muriwai Beach's sand dunes? Or the muddy slippery patches down south? (talking that 'Naki mud now that was the topic of one or 2 comments elsewhere recently)

If I don't bog & fall off I slide & fall off.

Still a mud load of fun tho'

[Oscar]

Ain't that the truth


I don't have too much trouble with dunes and flat beaches anymore. I think it was Offrd who said to me that 80 k was good and that 100 k was better. I'm no expert but I get by.
However, in Oz I would be blasting down some road at about 120 k and because everything is the same colour I would suddenly find myself in a rut in deep sand. Road level was suddenly axle height at times.
Everything seemed to be OK - like the bike was much easier to ride than it was at 10 or 20 k, but this is where the mind game thing came in. I kept thinking about how many extra pieces I could give my skeleton if I fucked up.
What really had me filling my pants was that it was just as chancey to slow down as it was to keep the power on. When the sides of the rut started to grab that front wheel, I was in deep doodoo.


Standing up helps, but is no guarantee.
I knew I was in the shit on Kawhia beach when I slowed so quickly sand off of the rear tyre started hitting my mirrors...

[warewolf]

What really had me filling my pants was that it was just as chancey to slow down as it was to keep the power on. When the sides of the rut started to grab that front wheel, I was in deep doodoo.Woodhill bike park (now called The Sandpit) is a great place for Aucklanders to practice riding in sand.

Deep loose sand chews power, you need lots of it to get the bike "up on the 'plane" like a boat. The front needs to be up and floating, kinda just skimming the surface. Steer more with your footpegs than handlebars, don't worry if the bars flap around a bit. Shut the throttle and the bike stops pretty quickly, sans brakes. If the front starts to dig in and tends to tuck, you need to open the throttle to push the front up and out again. Shutting the throttle will bury the front and the result may not be pretty. Definitely a mind game / learned skill. (yeah, what oscar said.)

Similarly, in ruts, as with crossing the ridges of loose stuff on otherwise hard-pack gravel roads, you need to power on and lighten the front, driving it through the loose stuff. When you do this, the forks extend which gives you two more benefits: the forks are at their most compliant part of the suspension stroke; and the chassis is raked out, slowing the steering (less likely to tank-slap) and lengthening the wheelbase, increasing stability.

When the front hits the edge of a rut, you need to power on to maintain control/directional stability. Braking is only really an option once everything is together again; although sometimes you can brake hard with the back and get it to dig in and drag, keeping the bike raked out from the back end.

No, not nice on a big, heavily-laden bike at a good clip. Power on, weight up and back real quick!!

[Bass]

Deep loose sand chews power, you need lots of it to get the bike "up on the 'plane" like a boat. The front needs to be up and floating, kinda just skimming the surface. Steer more with your footpegs than handlebars, don't worry if the bars flap around a bit. Shut the throttle and the bike stops pretty quickly, sans brakes. If the front starts to dig in and tends to tuck, you need to open the throttle to push the front up and out again. Shutting the throttle will bury the front and the result may not be pretty. Definitely a mind game / learned skill. (yeah, what oscar said.)

Similarly, in ruts, as with crossing the ridges of loose stuff on otherwise hard-pack gravel roads, you need to power on and lighten the front, driving it through the loose stuff. When you do this, the forks extend which gives you two more benefits: the forks are at their most compliant part of the suspension stroke; and the chassis is raked out, slowing the steering (less likely to tank-slap) and lengthening the wheelbase, increasing stability.

When the front hits the edge of a rut, you need to power on to maintain control/directional stability. Braking is only really an option once everything is together again; although sometimes you can brake hard with the back and get it to dig in and drag, keeping the bike raked out from the back end.

No, not nice on a big, heavily-laden bike at a good clip. Power on, weight up and back real quick!!

Roger that.
I had already figured out most of this (with lotsa help) and of course, it works, mostly.
However, knowing what to do and having the balls to actually do it when it goes against all your survival instincts, are 2 different things. I guess that you can change what is instinctive if you practice enough.
Even so, I note that the carnage rate with guys trying to ride like this, going to and from the OCR in Oz recently, was appalling.

I was reading an article not so long ago, on suspension setup techniques for off road work. The guy who wrote it says that to set up for sand, you should wind your damping right up - like harden up the suspension as much as you can - no preload increase, just damping. He didn't explain the thinking behind this however.
This seems to be at odds with what you were saying about front end compliance.
Any comments?

The other thing that was tricky in Oz was getting the weight up and back because there was a bloody great bag in the way of moving the arse rearwards. It meant that we really had to get on the gas to lighten the front which started a major domestic with the survival instincts. There was the odd occasion when I had it completely tapped out at speed in the deep loose stuff. I only ever did it when I was dog tired and really sore. It was born of desperation - scary stuff and pretty stupid looking back.

[Bass]

Water crossing are interesting. I've a theory that hitting cold water with a hot bike fucks up the mixture and makes it stall. Cracking the choke slightly seems to help.


I've been thinking about this one and I can't decide whether I think that it's right or wrong. I don't doubt your observation that cracking the choke helps, I was just wondering why.

Could it be that it just brings up the idle speed. With a mechanical choke (non EFI) isn't that normally the first effect?

[Oscar]

I've been thinking about this one and I can't decide whether I think that it's right or wrong. I don't doubt your observation that cracking the choke helps, I was just wondering why.

Could it be that it just brings up the idle speed. With a mechanical choke (non EFI) isn't that normally the first effect?

It could be, but idle speed or mixture, it worked.
Actually on consideration the cold should make it rum rich, not lean, so the increase in idle was probably the answer.

Deep cold water at Ohakune was consistently stalling the BMW's.
The water was at about intake/injector level and the EFI couldn't cope...

[Bass]

Deep cold water at Ohakune was consistently stalling the BMW's.
The water was at about intake/injector level and the EFI couldn't cope...

I have often wondered about the detrimental effects on a hot motor, of plunging it suddenly into cold water - especially an air cooled one like my DR.

I would have thought that mistreating it like that would give rise to all sorts of nasties, like seizing it as the block suddenly contracts around a piston which remains at close to normal operating temperature. Even cracking the block seems like it would be quite likely and yet I have never seen anything like that happen. I have not been around the Adv riding traps for very long, but I have never even heard of it happening.

How do we get away with abusing them as we do?

[cooneyr]

I have often wondered about the detrimental effects on a hot motor....

Who knows - maybe alloy is more forgiving but thank god we don't have problems. Had a landcruiser with a 2LT motor (turboed 2.4 diesel hilux motor) that cracked the head and dropped the "inserts" (whatever they were) into the cylinders due to repeated dunkings. $4000 later for a new motor and labour - ouch. Apparently the 2LT motors have a very high tendency to cracking heads - I just accelerated it.

Cheers R

[warewolf]

However, knowing what to do and having the balls to actually do it when it goes against all your survival instincts, are 2 different things. I guess that you can change what is instinctive if you practice enough.That's the premise behind a lot of Keith Code's work. Riding a motorcycle is not natural, it is a foreign learned skill. That, and understanding how your survival reactions work (and work against you) is what riding smarter is all about. The end result is that you ride in a manner that does not provoke the survival reactions.

(And it is why ppl often suggest getting a small, light, cheap bike to learn in the dirt, so that you don't need massive cojones to learn on the thing.)


Even so, I note that the carnage rate with guys trying to ride like this, going to and from the OCR in Oz recently, was appalling.The learning process on a big heavily laden bike is just way too slow. The carnage on the Aussie BMW safaris got pretty bad there for a while, too, for obvious reasons.


I was reading an article not so long ago, on suspension setup techniques for off road work. The guy who wrote it says that to set up for sand, you should wind your damping right up - like harden up the suspension as much as you can - no preload increase, just damping. He didn't explain the thinking behind this however.
This seems to be at odds with what you were saying about front end compliance.I don't know, but I suspect the damping is increased because the soft sand has some give, absorbing some of the impacts for you. It can be described as like surfing in molasses, very different behaviour. I can see how slowing/stiffening the suspension action could be useful in soft deep sand, but it's difficult to explain concisely. Also I was thinking about ruts in general, not necessarily sandy ones. There are always compromises.

In whooped-out sand, generally you want faster rebound, to avoid the suspension packing down through not rebounding fully before the next hit; and slower compression, to avoid the suspension packing down by being pushed further through its stroke. Bear in mind that dirt bikes tend to adjust compression as a priority, road bikes rebound. Witness the less fancy bikes in each style that only have one adjuster. So its possible (not having read it myself) your tuner only did mean to increase compression, and/or was not factoring in whoops or ruts.

Mud is another situation which seems illogical. Compression, rebound and preload all get increased for mud - because it sticks to the bike, increasing the laden weight. Much more important on a 90kg MXer than a 390kg adv tourer. You'd think in the soft, slick conditions you'd want to go softly, softly.


The other thing that was tricky in Oz was getting the weight up and back because there was a bloody great bag in the way of moving the arse rearwards. It meant that we really had to get on the gas to lighten the front which started a major domestic with the survival instincts. There was the odd occasion when I had it completely tapped out at speed in the deep loose stuff. I only ever did it when I was dog tired and really sore. It was born of desperation - scary stuff and pretty stupid looking back.Yep, I don't like being constrained by luggage, either, so prefer a small backpack rather than tankbag or tailbag. But needs must, and in that case 'ride to the conditions'. I got no other answers to that one.

[warewolf]

I've a theory that hitting cold water with a hot bike fucks up the mixture and makes it stall. Cracking the choke slightly seems to help.Could also be reduced spark efficiency via partial shorting of HT leads or whatever? A few more rpms helps avoid stalling on misfire, and ups the alternator output voltage. Might just be enough to keep the engine out of trouble?

Whatever the reason, I know I try to carry more than idle revs through water as an extra anti-stall measure. Also in case I have to dump the clutch suddenly to balance the bike, push it over a rock, etc etc.

[Bass]

the "inserts" (whatever they were)
Cheers R

Valve seat inserts.
They're common with alloy heads (and others) as the parent alloy is not up to the tough environment around the valve seat area.
When you crack a head, the cracks tend to start in the same area and can release the seat inserts to wreak havoc internally.

[Bass]

Bear in mind that dirt bikes tend to adjust compression as a priority, road bikes rebound. Witness the less fancy bikes in each style that only have one adjuster.

Thats useful. I didn't know that. Ta




But needs must, and in that case 'ride to the conditions'. I got no other answers to that one.

I was just saying to Jamie a day or so back, that we did 18,000 km on top heavy bikes, in totally unfamiliar conditions, without a single serious incident and only a few pucker moments.
So we must have got something right, even if it was only to realise how much we didn't know.
I note that in 6 years back riding, I have come off a road bike once, with moderately serious consequences for both me and the bike (broken ribs etc).
In one year adventure riding, I have lost track of the number of times I have come off the DR with virtually no consequences for either me or the bike.
So it seems that being as slow as a wet week does have some advantages.

[warewolf]

Yep, I have come off the dirt bike countless times with no ill effects, more often than not at a standstill or near to it!!

[Bass]

more often than not at a standstill or near to it!!

That's the big difference!

[NordieBoy]

I have often wondered about the detrimental effects on a hot motor, of plunging it suddenly into cold water - especially an air cooled one like my DR.

I would have thought that mistreating it like that would give rise to all sorts of nasties, like seizing it as the block suddenly contracts around a piston which remains at close to normal operating temperature. Even cracking the block seems like it would be quite likely and yet I have never seen anything like that happen. I have not been around the Adv riding traps for very long, but I have never even heard of it happening.

How do we get away with abusing them as we do?

How about in a 3-hour cross country race.
250's/450's etc being held on the limiter forever and then hitting creek/bog/whatever crossings - In winter.

[warewolf]

Even cracking the block seems like it would be quite likely and yet I have never seen anything like that happen. I have not been around the Adv riding traps for very long, but I have never even heard of it happening.

How do we get away with abusing them as we do?Sometimes we don't.

When I was shopping for an XR 10+ years ago, I was continually warned about cracked heads. And vigorously warned off any that had big-bore (or big valve) kits fitted. Quite a few shops I went to had at least one XR in with a stuffed head. But that was Aussie heat induced, I'd expect, not sudden dunkings in water... but then again, who'd know?

But given the sheer numbers of XRs out there, the failure rate was probably very low.

[Cross Rider]

Mike Cotter is touring & doing clinics in conjunction with Kawa NZ for motorcrossers. He can be reached at madracing1@xtra.co.nz

Not sure of dates etc but think it's for greenies -not sure on others. He mentioned Gonzo may not make it thru some parts of the track - I just laughed -hahaha like that:headbang: It's to be held on a motoross rack I think.
Contact him & see.

Thanks for that, have contacted Mike and have booked in for early Dec Kawasaki off road day training session. Good info thanks.

[XF650]

Here's one for you guys up north
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1805098#post1805098

[Eddieb]

I found this DVD very good for learning the basics.



+100

Cost me about $60 to bring in from the states, I've only watched half of it so far and reckon it's already paid for itself with how it's helped my gravel & off road riding.

[XF650]

Congratulations Birchy.
Remember that part of his Trail Skills Training income helps fund his competition riding.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=87147

[Padmei]

Last Sunday I meandered over to Marlborough where Chris Cotter & Team Green were holding a Kwaka motocross training day.

As I rocked up on Gonzo I felt a little conspicuous with my 200kg behemoth whilst the little green mxers were being lifted off utes & rolled off trailers. However I had come to pick up whatever skills I could gather during the day & most importantly have some fun.

The 25 or so rockstar hopefuls were divided in three groups - intermediate/experts, novice & trail. The latter group comprised solely of myself so off with the novices I went.

After a bike assessment we went with our appointed coach for the first of 3 sessions. Mike Cotter himself took us for the rudimentaries of body position, rear wheel sliding, cone weaving & stop/start control where a lot of emphasis was placed upon clutch control & body position.

After about an hour we had lunch then rotated to new coach Ben for cornering. As the track had very few friendly ruts or berms it was a bit hit & miss with the KLR wanting to wash out with its heavy front end but driving out of the corners in attack mode was tre cool.

The next session was jumps with Brad. After taking gonzo around the track a few times I had had him airbourne a few times but definetly knew 1/2 a metre was the max height I'd like to land it. So content to sit back & watch the others attempt airtime, I was stoked when Brad asked if I wanted to ride his KX250F race bike.

Um... split second hesitation then I was on it looking for the key & starter button.Hot start? Kick start? what kind of strange talk is this? Finally figured it out then wahhoooooo I finally know what it's like to fly!

Those of you who know the sensation of your first real jump will know what I'm talking about -Crusty Demons kiss my arse. I think I jumped a whole 3 or 4 metres:gob::shutup:

After freaking myself out a few times the day wore itself out & it was time to regroup & watch the mx boys practise race starts - noise & roost everywhere.



The guys were very cool, friendly & encouraging however by their own admission didn't really know much about adventure bikes over 90kgs. The instruction on body position was much the same as described on the DSR dvd however the biggest difference in instruction was the use of knees to grip the bike to control it vs the DSR approach of letting the bike move more underneath you. With the big bike I find it easy to manouvre standing over top of it letting it fold itself underneath around tight corners.


Whilst I felt I didn't learn as much as I thought I would (especially cornering in gravel), it was a day spent riding the bike in challenging circumstances & by the end I was feeling that 'togetherness' with the bike.
A great day riding & apparently there are 3 other KLR riders in Chch tomm taking part. Good luck to them & thanks Team Green, Mike, Ben & Brad.

Now off to tardme...KX... hmm

[warewolf]

Nice one! I want to do a course like that.


The instruction on body position was much the same as described on the DSR dvd however the biggest difference in instruction was the use of knees to grip the bike to control it vs the DSR approach of letting the bike move more underneath you.They are kinda horses for courses. Most of the time, holding the bike with your knees (or guiding it, not holding tight but allowing fore/aft/up/down but not sideways) is good - I have worked out that that is what stops the rear from slithering around in the greasy stuff. I have to consciously remember to do this lest I revert to mtb technique of keeping your knees away from the frame/headset when the going gets rough.

For the tight low-speed turns shown in the DSR vid, you have to spread your knees. Although the refined version of that is probably to keep your down-side knee against the tank as you tilt the bike, bringing it back to centre as the bike comes back up.

[buggsubique]

Nice one! I want to do a course like that.

They are kinda horses for courses. Most of the time, holding the bike with your knees (or guiding it, not holding tight but allowing fore/aft/up/down but not sideways) is good - I have worked out that that is what stops the rear from slithering around in the greasy stuff. I have to consciously remember to do this lest I revert to mtb technique of keeping your knees away from the frame/headset when the going gets rough.

For the tight low-speed turns shown in the DSR vid, you have to spread your knees. Although the refined version of that is probably to keep your down-side knee against the tank as you tilt the bike, bringing it back to centre as the bike comes back up.

Ditto the MTB technique - It's actually all I know (BMX, MTB, DH, now Trail / adv riding). I prefer to keep myself separate from the machine and let it do its own thing in the gravel, but sometimes in the loose dirt / mud it is a full body fight to get the bike in the right direction. I did about 15km up a river (yes, in / through / up the river, not a 4wd track beside a river). Was hellishly hardwork on the clutch hand and kidneys, but I did find sitting tight, narrow knees and a sense of balance worked well to get through very rocky / bouldery sections. In those situations I was finding the loose body would end up with the bike kicking out in a certain direction... like the man says, horses for courses.

[pampa]

Last Sunday I meandered over to Marlborough where Chris Cotter & Team Green were holding a Kwaka motocross training day.

As I rocked up on Gonzo I felt a little conspicuous with my 200kg behemoth whilst the little green mxers were being lifted off utes & rolled off trailers. However I had come to pick up whatever skills I could gather during the day & most importantly have some fun.

The 25 or so rockstar hopefuls were divided in three groups - intermediate/experts, novice & trail. The latter group comprised solely of myself so off with the novices I went.

After a bike assessment we went with our appointed coach for the first of 3 sessions. Mike Cotter himself took us for the rudimentaries of body position, rear wheel sliding, cone weaving & stop/start control where a lot of emphasis was placed upon clutch control & body position.

After about an hour we had lunch then rotated to new coach Ben for cornering. As the track had very few friendly ruts or berms it was a bit hit & miss with the KLR wanting to wash out with its heavy front end but driving out of the corners in attack mode was tre cool.

The next session was jumps with Brad. After taking gonzo around the track a few times I had had him airbourne a few times but definetly knew 1/2 a metre was the max height I'd like to land it. So content to sit back & watch the others attempt airtime, I was stoked when Brad asked if I wanted to ride his KX250F race bike.

Um... split second hesitation then I was on it looking for the key & starter button.Hot start? Kick start? what kind of strange talk is this? Finally figured it out then wahhoooooo I finally know what it's like to fly!

Those of you who know the sensation of your first real jump will know what I'm talking about -Crusty Demons kiss my arse. I think I jumped a whole 3 or 4 metres:gob::shutup:

After freaking myself out a few times the day wore itself out & it was time to regroup & watch the mx boys practise race starts - noise & roost everywhere.



The guys were very cool, friendly & encouraging however by their own admission didn't really know much about adventure bikes over 90kgs. The instruction on body position was much the same as described on the DSR dvd however the biggest difference in instruction was the use of knees to grip the bike to control it vs the DSR approach of letting the bike move more underneath you. With the big bike I find it easy to manouvre standing over top of it letting it fold itself underneath around tight corners.


Whilst I felt I didn't learn as much as I thought I would (especially cornering in gravel), it was a day spent riding the bike in challenging circumstances & by the end I was feeling that 'togetherness' with the bike.
A great day riding & apparently there are 3 other KLR riders in Chch tomm taking part. Good luck to them & thanks Team Green, Mike, Ben & Brad.

Now off to tardme...KX... hmm

Good on ya mate, i'd like to do such a thing but always hesitating due to lack appropriate bike (an skills)

Cheers,
Pampa

[Cross Rider]

Mike Cotter is touring & doing clinics in conjunction with Kawa NZ for motorcrossers. He can be reached at madracing1@xtra.co.nz

Not sure of dates etc but think it's for greenies -not sure on others. He mentioned Gonzo may not make it thru some parts of the track - I just laughed -hahaha like that:headbang: It's to be held on a motoross rack I think.
Contact him & see.

Did Mikes course today in CHCH, cost was $50. He had 2 other pro riders giving instruction plus himself. Mate and I turned up on KLR's another 5 fellas ranging form 12yrs:beer: to 45 on motor cross bikes. Both my mate and I will never ride the same again. The 'one on one' stuff got us from learning to stand up when riding off road, using clutch and brakes properly( thats how green we are ). Do small jumps, take corners at pace in sand and by the end of the session we can now both pull wheelies on our KLR's. Best $50 I've spent this year. Learners on dirt like us guys appreciate any help we can get. Put me on a road bike and I'll take a 70k corner at 120. Different story on dirt. Thanks very much for the heads up about mike mate.

[Padmei]

we can now both pull wheelies on our KLR's. .



I was believing you up until I read this.:oi-grr:

[Cross Rider]

Ask Mike, no better learning than one on one. No better student than one who doesn't know what can or cannot be done. A life lesson to take away, if it can be done once it can be done again. Eventually it becomes the norm. Once again thanks for talking to a lessor rider.:sunny:

[Padmei]

Ask Mike, no better learning than one on one. No better student than one who doesn't know what can or cannot be done. A life lesson to take away, if it can be done once it can be done again. Eventually it becomes the norm. Once again thanks for talking to a lessor rider.:sunny:

Mike tried on my bike but the bald tyre on wet grass meant it just kept spinning. :pinch:When I put my new tyre on I'll give it a go:eek5:

[XF650]

Borrowed from Survival Skills forum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_dB6LzxpV8&eurl=http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=43864&page=18

[CrazyFrog]

Borrowed from Survival Skills forum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_dB6LzxpV8&eurl=http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=43864&page=18

Hee hee, that vid made me larf.....what a winner.

[warewolf]

<object width="425" height="344">


<embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/iGJoDgtlm0Q&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></object>

[MXNUT]

Obviously a rental property. :sweatdrop

[JATZ]

Well thats one way to clear a room

[Padmei]

Sad to hear that Ben from Team Green who was a tutor in the mx skills clinic has broken his ankles & pelvis (not sure how accurate the info is) Anyway when it all goes wrong even the top guys aren't immune.
Here's hoping he has a speedy recovery