Straight-lining corners

[Blackbird]

The article below comes from the Megarider (Allan Kirk) safety email which arrived today. I've used this technique for years and learned it many moons ago in the UK. I'm sure that heaps of experienced riders use it too for the reasons mentioned in the article. (As opposed to the multitude of cagers that simply cut blind bends).

Seeing it mentioned again has reminded me of a letter to one of the UK bike magazines last summer from an advanced bike instructor from the UK who was touring NZ on a bike. He got pulled over and pinged by a patrol car that was following him. I can't remember the actual wording of his letter but the charge was effectively failing to keep left. I thought at the time that this seemed pretty harsh if he was using the technique within its proscribed parameters.

Does anyone have an informed view of the legal position in NZ? Any other comments?

Cheers,

Geoff

P.S. I love the last paragraph!!!!



OFFSIDING - AN ADVANCED RIDING TECHNIQUE ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Many years ago, one of my instructors commented to me in a surprised tone, that I "cut" corners while riding - straight lining corners by using the oncoming traffic's lane - when there is no oncoming traffic in it, of course!

On New Zealand's little trafficked back roads, there is minimal danger in using this tactic ... as long as you know what you are doing.

In some countries, however, the amount of traffic on the roads makes this a highly dangerous tactic. Sometimes, the use of solid no crossing lines makes it a licence-risking practice, as well. In fact, I've been told that in the US it is even illegal to cross a dotted centreline unless actually overtaking, severely limiting the talents of the megarider.

After my instructor commented on my habit, I had a think about what I was doing, and why I did it.

I knew the habit started in my early days of riding and was firmed up when I was racing. I do it on the road because it enables me to ride smoother and thus faster.

In using the whole width of the road you get much greater choice of line, more flexibility in road positioning, you extend your sightline, and you can straighten out multiple sharp bends into one or two long flowing curves. Decreasing spiral bends, a nasty type of corner that accounts for the majority of single vehicle motorcycle crashes on corners, can only be handled reliably and consistently by straight lining the corner or taking the corner extra slow.

The main danger of straight lining corners is that one will collide with a car coming around a corner coming the other way.

However, if one is riding as a megarider, with the usual 10% to 20% performance leeway up one's sleeve, all it takes is a little countersteering to get back onto one's "correct" side of the road and out of the oncoming driver's way well before the car very close.

And since the megarider rides to the Vanishing Point, he will see the car coming around the Vanishing Point well before it gets close and there is a risk of collision.

But my instructor's comment stuck in my brain and, although I was quite happy using the technique, I wondered whether I was actually doing something wrong.

That was until I heard of offsiding.

Off-siding is the United Kingdom term for straight lining corners and it is a technique widely used by the highly trained UK police motorcyclists.

Andy Woodward, a UK megarider says:
"Some so-called experts suggest you regard the centreline as a wall.
However, UK police instructors regard the centreline as non-existent whenever the road can be seen to be clear, unless it is a solid centreline.
In this case, the line is a legally binding wall."

When used carefully and sensibly, offsiding is a valuable tool for the megarider. When carried out correctly it will markedly increase the speed of your riding and, believe it or not, your safety.

It improves your safety because you improve your sightline and because you don't have to use extreme lean angles to get good cornering speeds.

You DO have to ensure you have that 10% to 20% of performance leeway and you must never offside if you cannot maintain a reasonable distance between you and the vanishing point so you will never be too close to any car that appears around the corner. And, if you are in the other lane, you must see and react to oncoming vehicles IMMEDIATELY. And that reaction must be not only quick, but precise.

Offsiding is not a newbie's technique. One of the dangers of offsiding is that, if you do not react quickly enough, oncoming cars may react to the fact that you are in their lane and, in attempting to avoid you, may swerve into your lane just as you also swerve back into your lane ...

Exactly that sequence of events has caused a couple of serious crashes involving police motorcyclists in the UK. In each case the fault lay with the police officer who either did not react quickly enough, or did not maintain a reasonable distance between himself and the Vanishing Point.

However, if you are riding with performance leeway and watching the Vanishing Point to react to the sight of oncoming vehicles as soon as they appear, the distance (and time) between you and them will be such that the other motorist will feel no alarm or will not have time to make any untoward manoeuvre before you are back in your own lane, with the throttle closed to make allowance for the now-tightened radius of the corner.

There will no doubt be many riders who will not be prepared to use such a technique because they consider it dangerous. That is fair enough. As in all things, each rider must make his/her own risk management judgement.

However, as with many advanced riding techniques, whether offsiding is dangerous depends upon where, when, and how it is used. My experience and the many riders who I know use it (including, now, the instructor who first commented on my use of the technique) is that it is not dangerous when done correctly and is a very useful technique.

For starters, it tends to discourage hanging off as this decreases one's sightlines and gives very little gain when offsiding. And I like the cynical comment of Megarider Andy Woodward about the fashion of hanging off:
"Generally, folk who hang off sportbikes on the street are newbies who like to look faster than they are. And they attract plods like wasps to jam."

[Marmoot]

So, basically you're saying "straightline it when visibility allows" ?

Pretty long write ups there just to say that.
(plus it was blue on black background for me.....I now feel like plucking my eyeballs out)

[Blackbird]

So, basically you're saying "straightline it when visibility allows" ?

Pretty long write ups there just to say that.
(plus it was blue on black background for me.....I now feel like plucking my eyeballs out)

Bit of a waste of time you posting that, wasn't it;added stuff-all value. I will change the colour for you though.

[FROSTY]

This is not something I'd encourage in a new rider.
I do encourage using the available road width -ie "your' ide of the road but not crossing onto the "wrong" side of the road.
ONLY reason being that a new rider in my opinion doesn't have the experience to know when to and when not to cross the center line.

When you think about it what is being encouraged here is doing what any racer has known for years.

[MSTRS]

Does anyone have an informed view of the legal position in NZ? Any other comments?


I think you will find that it is an offence (Failure to keep left).
I also kinda grew up with using it, but decided that although it made corners smoother, the result was either much higher speeds (remembering that it was almost the norm to travel at 130kph+) or simply lazy riding, and it was easy to get real complacent and fail to scan far enough ahead or get out of practice doing short, tight corners.
I don't do it now and haven't for years.

[Marmoot]

Bit of a waste of time you posting that, wasn't it;added stuff-all value.
Um.....was summarising


I will change the colour for you though.
Many thanks

[Blackbird]

This is not something I'd encourage in a new rider.
I do encourage using the available road width -ie "your' side of the road but not crossing onto the "wrong" side of the road.
ONLY reason being that a new rider in my opinion doesn't have the experience to know when to and when not to cross the center line.

When you think about it what is being encouraged here is doing what any racer has known for years.

I completely agree about it not really being suitable for inexperienced riders, which is why Allan Kirk went to some pains to explain what was meant.

MSTRS: Agree with your sentiments too. I tend not to use it on open sweepers for the speed reasons you mention. However, using a local situation, there are several places on the western side of the Coro Loop where there are relatively low speed sequences of bends you can see through. Straightlining reduces cornering forces, particularly if for example; if the road is damp, allowing a smooth constant speed (as opposed to using it as a racetrack).

Coming back to the legality issue though, if there's an area of contention in NZ; I might be more circumspect in future.

Addendum: Regarding the legality issue, I guess what I was getting at is that it is taught in the UK by police instructors as a genuine advanced riding technique. One would have thought that safety is safety anywhere, unless the issue over here is it not being applied with good judgement by inexperienced riders. Apologies for being a bit short Marmoot - the "short" version is what could get a newbie into trouble:whistle:

[Katman]

I would hate to see anyone reading that article thinking that it's a positive motorcycling technique.

The repeated reference to it enabling "increased speed" is very poor justification.

Also, if car drivers come around a corner and find a motorcycle on their side of the road, regardless of the available distance, it will only worsen the image that many road users already have of us.

[Blackbird]

The repeated reference to it enabling "increased speed" is very poor justification.

Also, if car drivers come around a corner and find a motorcycle on their side of the road, regardless of the available distance, it will only worsen the image that many road users already have of us.

Yep, very poor choice of words. Maintaining smooth progress would have been perhaps better. Note my edit/addendum to my previous post. If it is illegal over here, then maybe it should not have been raised by Allen Kirk in that context.

[MIXONE]

Well you learn something new every day.I've been riding (and driving) like that for years and as long as you can see far enough it front it's as safe as.

PS Katman have you got a ladder big enough that you can get over yourself?

[riffer]

Nah Katman's got a point.

The article suggested to me that a "megarider" was a fast one. I'd seriously contest this view.

There's a time and place for everything as usual, and plenty of "megariders" have gotten caught out straightlining corners.

FWIW, I would only straightline corners if I had 100% visibility and certainty of no oncoming traffic.

Just common sense really.

[Maha]

You DO have to ensure you have that 10% to 20% of performance leeway and you must never offside if you cannot maintain a reasonable distance between you and the vanishing point so you will never be too close to any car that appears around the corner. And, if you are in the other lane, you must see and react to oncoming vehicles IMMEDIATELY. And that reaction must be not only quick, but precise.

How about......dont ever put yourself in that posistion?.....

[Marmoot]

Nah Katman's got a point.

Skewer me! he actually does have a point here.
For once, he actually does...

[MSTRS]

Nah Katman's got a point.

The article suggested to me that a "megarider" was a fast one. I'd seriously contest this view.

There's a time and place for everything as usual, and plenty of "megariders" have gotten caught out straightlining corners.

FWIW, I would only straightline corners if I had 100% visibility and certainty of no oncoming traffic.

Just common sense really.

LooseBruce + Darryl...
It's just not worth the risk, kiddies.

[SPman]

I think any technique that involves crossing the centreline unless in an extreme situation is not good practice and should be actively discouraged. If you can't get good flowing speed on a public road,safely, without crossing the centreline, then there is something seriously wrong with your technique and you should slow the fuck down.

If you regularly cross the centre line, in a "safe" situation, there is always the possibility it will become "normal" to your reflex pattern and, one day, you could do it instinctively when it's not "safe".

Then..........

[MSTRS]

I think any technique that involves crossing the centreline unless in an extreme situation is not good practice and should be actively discouraged. If you can't get good flowing speed on a public road,safely, without crossing the centreline, then there is something seriously wrong with your technique and you should slow the fuck down.

If you regularly cross the centre line, in a "safe" situation, there is always the possibility it will become "normal" to your reflex pattern and, one day, you could do it instinctively when it's not "safe".

Then..........

That is precisely why I stopped using this technique...back in the mid-70's, when it was entirely normal and 'everybody' did it.

[Maha]

Downhill straight (about 100mts) turns into a right hand sweeper. Double yellows all the way. Passing lane 300 mts up the road, clear view through the sweeper (but double yellows remember?) but that didnt stop a biker passing the 5 cars in front. Got passed, no worries, but good call or bad call??

[sinfull]

Have to admit to riding like this, driving like this and generally living like this !
Boss used to always say, (when i'd complain during my apprentice yrs) give the worst job to the laziest man and he'll always find the easiest way to do things !
Though use of the whole road does save you rubber, gas and possibly km's on the clock, (he did state time and place) unfortunately NZ's roads are coming to a point where there is more chance than not, a car is just arround that courner, thus causing too many avaisive manuvours in one short ride, which has ya shaking ya head thinking, i got to stop frightening ppl like that !
As one day it will bite ya on the arse

Perfect example down here is the hutt side of the peakok hill coming up (or down) beautifull set of windies you can see through if you start on the right line !
Don't condone it as a technique to learn in todays traffic volumnes but if i see a stretch of clear sweeping bends i'll still do it in my car to make the tires last that one more corner lol

[Taz]

Some people overa analyse their riding a bit eh?
I just do what works for me......

[SPman]

The solid centreline question is a hazy one (not legally, I know)
Over here they have passing lanes with double solids at the centre....but....coming the other way in the single lane, there is often 400m plus visibility. And no cars coming the other way as you trail Mr Womble in his 4WD. I pass - it's a no brainer.

I will cross double solids on short straights or twisties, as long as I know I've got minimum 100m vis throughout the manouvre.(and there's no red & blues around). Any doubt at all.....I don't bother.....there's always the next clear stretch.......

[R6_kid]

Sounds like a half assed reason to justify taking the 'fastest line' in a road riding situation.

Riding on the wrong side of the road at 'increased speeds' is just asking to get taken out by an oncoming vehicle.

If these theories are applied to a single lane situation then they are pretty much spot on.

However, i disagree with the 'leaning off is a n00bs thing'... sure n00bs do it because they think it looks cool, but in a situation where you come into a corner 'too hot' then hanging off the bike actually allows you to take that corner at a higher speed with less lean angle - i.e it could be what saves your ass from running wide.

The truth is that if you are riding with a 10-20% performance buffer (i assume that is what he means) then you shouldnt be running into a situation where you need to use the whole road to negotiate a corner, especially if riding to the vanishing point.

And furthermore, a person who doesnt use most/all of their bikes lean angle more than some of the time (ie not familiar with their bikes limits) will become a person that will not be able to use this to their advantage come time to do so. Thats what empty carparks and racetracks are good for.

[scumdog]

LooseBruce + Darryl...
It's just not worth the risk, kiddies.

Y'all ride how ya like through the corners - but just remember the above eh?

[Mom]

Call it straight lining if you wish to, but what you are actually talking about is the fastest line through a corner given the tarmac available. It has no valid place on the road, especially NZ's finest. Call it an advanced riders technique too, good for use on the track no doubt.

Yes "you" may well be able to see ahead enough distance in your experience to take the race line through a corner, good for you. Yes "you" may be able to use your superior skills to countersteer around the car that suddenly appears in your path.

Demonstrating your ability to do this on the road, only encourages inexperienced riders to do the same, result, carnage.

Using this technique is nothing more than an excuse to travel faster. If you really want to carve up the roads, dont! Do it on the track. I called it the racing line, because that is what it is.

As others have said, hate to see another biker fatality as a result of "straight-lining"

[jonbuoy]

I can see why the police use it in high speed chases etc as long as you can see far enough ahead its not a problem. Personally I like corners and want the road to have more not less.

[Motu]

I've been doing this for a long long time too - part of my smooth/more for less effort/pace style riding.Very much part of my gravel road riding too,just smooths the whole thing out and allows you to keep the speed up.As Blackbird says,west Coro coast - out of a left hander,and straight line to the next one.

Of course you don't use this technique without safety being paramount - being a gravel road rider I'm very aware of what could be coming around the corner and lack of escape routes.

[The Stranger]

Bit of a waste of time you posting that, wasn't it. I will change the colour for you though.

No, got you to change colours with minimal effort.

[mstriumph]

The solid centreline question is a hazy one (not legally, I know)
Over here they have passing lanes with double solids at the centre....but....coming the other way in the single lane, there is often 400m plus visibility. And no cars coming the other way as you trail Mr Womble in his 4WD. I pass - it's a no brainer................

i call this technique 'self-preservation' personally - 9 times out of 10 mr/mrs/ms womble is talking on their mobile, applying their lippy or gazing aimlessly into space whilst munching their hamburger ....... they don't know where THEY are - they sure as hell don't know where YOU are and could therefore do you a serious mahem if they decided to slap on full anchors without warning ........ safest place is past them methinks ......

insofar as the double white is concerned, as the man says, we've got double-lined stretches here where you can see clear to china on a good day [ok - i'm exagerating, but not much :msn-wink:] ...

.. somewhere on west australian roads we've got one of a pollie's idiot relations loose with a paintbrush, a truckload of white paint and NO IDEA WHATSOEVER about roads & traffic

honestly, traffic management and restrictions in wa are enough to make anyone a believer in mayhem.

[The Stranger]

Sounds like a half assed reason to justify taking the 'fastest line' in a road riding situation.

Riding on the wrong side of the road at 'increased speeds' is just asking to get taken out by an oncoming vehicle.


Or be taken out by someone exiting drive, race etc looking the other way for traffic as none should be coming from the wrong direction should it?
Or apparently it should.

Sure with a little care risk is minimal, but why bother, for what gain?
So as you can be a true MEGARIDER?
Why not just get a power ranger outfit then you could be totally cool.

[Badjelly]

Does anyone have an informed view of the legal position in NZ?

For some time now, cops have been sitting at the top of Weld Pass (SH1 south of Blenheim) from time to time, photographing and ticketing people they see crossing the centre line on the way up.

Personally, I think cutting corners in the way you describe (you can call it straightlining if you like, I call it cutting) can be safe if done only when there is adequate visibility and no driveways, pedestrians, stock, etc. But I don't have any problems with discontinuing this practice if it might get me a ticket.

[slowpoke]

I reckon police riding and recreational/commuter riding involve completely different objectives. The average police rider has also completed far more advanced training than the average road rider.

And what's this 10-20% leeway business? How the hell do you judge that? Can you look at an oncoming car and judge it's speed within 10%? Can you judge your stopping distance from any given speed within 10%? Can you look at any given corner and calculate the maximum speed you can take it at? Can you even judge your own speed within 10% without looking at the instruments?

Sorry, can't say I agree with that one.

[Ixion]

No question about legality. It's illegal. Full stop.

Is it wise to do it on a regular basis ? No

Should novices be encouraged to do it ? No

Do experienced riders all do it sometimes ? Yes.

Is it safe if done sensibly ? Yes

Is it worth doing? Sometimes. Most twisty bits can be done just as smoothly going round the curves (and why would bikers, who mostly crack on hardy about how they "love the twisties", want to turn said twisties into straights ?). But there are some cases where the exit from the first corner sets you up with a horrid entrance to the second, and not enough time to realign. In such cases PROVIDED IT IS SAFE (ie you have clear visibility of the whole curve sequence and far enough beyond that no-one can get to the far end before you do), it is a sensible technique. Please note the "PROVIDED". The road to hell starts on the other side of the centreline.

Be very very sure that you can get back again. Alan Kirk's complacent "all it takes is a bit of countersteering" is bollocks. Because if you are on the wrong side of the road setting up for a corner, and have to take emergency evasive action to get back on your own side, it's odds on that you will now be so horribly set up for that approaching corner that you will avoid the Scylla of the oncoming vehicle , only to crash in the Charybidis of the ditch. Yes, hanging off MAY give you enough extra to get round. Maybe. Perhaps. The only time it is good practice on the road. Or it may not. Don't risk it.

[R6_kid]

Sure with a little care risk is minimal, but why bother, for what gain?
So as you can be a true MEGARIDER?
Why not just get a power ranger outfit then you could be totally cool.

I think Megarider is another name for a 'safe SQUID' by the sounds of things.

I got my power ranger outfit now, just waiting on the white boots... all in due course.

[scumdog]

BTW: There was a thread on this about a year or so ago - all the topics covered on this thread were covered on that one too - plus a few more.:yes:

[sels1]

BTW: There was a thread on this about a year or so ago - all the topics covered on this thread were covered on that one too - plus a few more.:yes:

Doh now you tell me...after I read all 3 pages:laugh: Actually I seem to remember that now too

Straightlining? I wont say I advise or condone it...but I have been known to do it...(in the right circumstances of course...)

[sugilite]

BTW: There was a thread on this about a year or so ago - all the topics covered on this thread were covered on that one too - plus a few more.:yes:

I remember that one, and one of the strongest keep left brigade, then extolled the virtues of passing on right handers in the very same thread and dissed riders for not looking in their mirrors and having the audacity to cut him off....did my head in that did! :blink:

[Movistar]

(and why would bikers, who mostly crack on hardy about how they "love the twisties", want to turn said twisties into straights ?). But there are some cases where the exit from the first corner sets you up with a horrid entrance to the second, and not enough time to realign. In such cases PROVIDED IT IS SAFE (ie you have clear visibility of the whole curve sequence and far enough beyond that no-one can get to the far end before you do), it is a sensible technique. Please note the "PROVIDED".

+1

The bloody roads are getting straight enough already.
Make the most of the bends that are there!

[Motu]

No question about legality. It's illegal. Full stop.


I think you could be right - one day I straightened out a nice S bend on the Guzzi,only to find a bloody Traffic Cop blocked me at the next stop sign.He was really fuming....and nearly had a heart attack when he found out it had no WoF or rego,then the bugger made me push it home while he sat in his car and followed.I only kept my license because he was even hated in the force,and the judge used to go easy on his cases to piss him off.

But in less gifted cases - failure to keep left,dangerous driving....loss of license.

[Oscar]

I'd always thought Kirk was a crackpot and I was wrong.
He isn't a crackpot, he's a dangerous crackpot.

Every rider believes that he/she is more skilled than they are actually are.
By their very nature they will push the envelope.
It's the nature of the beast, as most motorbike riders are naturally confident and competitive (if they weren't they'd be in a car). So giving relatively inexperienced riders this sort of idea and referring to them as "Megariders" is asking for trouble.

This is not a technique that forgives error.
You won't make a small mistake using straight-lining - it will likely be fatal.
Maybe Allan will attend your wake.

[BLazeD]

Can't believe they wrote an article on this.

It's called COMMON SENSE

[trustme]

I regularly straight line a set of corners with the following provisos, no yellow lines, clear visibility, no traffic.
I find it allows me to keep pace with other riders & in many instances I make ground through the corners while actually not riding as hard as those around me.
I dont race , I don't do huge speeds, I try to maintain momentum & straight lining helps me reduce braking & acceleration , you make steady , quick & smooth progress without having to take undue risks.
Illegal , probably, unsafe, no I don't think so, but the exit from corners should always be on your side of the road

[jonbuoy]

I think it misses the sport of riding. Straight lining is for cages. No to mention that it means riding over slippery white lines and a section of road that doesn't get "cleaned" by other vehicle tyres.

[nodrog]

i remember watching one of those weekend driving shows many moons ago, and Denny Hulme was demonstrating this very technique (yes on the road aimed at your average nz driver), although it wasnt about being fast, it was about being smooth.

[Blackbird]

i remember watching one of those weekend driving shows many moons ago, and Denny Hulme was demonstrating this very technique (yes on the road aimed at your average nz driver), although it wasnt about being fast, it was about being smooth.

That's one of the points I was trying to make, especially in adverse conditions.

To everyone who has made posts on this topic, thanks so much. It’s been really worthwhile to air it, simply to keep awareness up.

I also made the same post on the UK Blackbird site as it has a lot of experienced riders and a number of serving police. Also since I last posted, I’ve had some dialogue with KB’ers who are local police.

Trying to draw some of the points made in this discussion:

- Whilst it may not always be applied, any rider failing to keep left is open to prosecution as Ixion and some others correctly stated. And if there is an accident (i.e collision etc) whilst the bike is on the wrong side of the road, then dangerous driving charges may well be laid. Because straightlining is fundamentally illegal in NZ, Allan Kirk’s article must be questionable.

- Police riders in the UK have confirmed that they are taught it as a method of making safe progress in the appropriate circumstances and that it is NOT a tool for the inexperienced. It is not illegal in the UK. (Assuming that you do not cross solid lines of course or cause an accident).

- Scumdog summed it up brilliantly by saying "No head-on crashes would occur if everybody stayed on their side of the centre-line".

Cheers,

Geoff

P.S A mate who is a qualified Advanced Rider in the UK has a great website for riders in his area. The main intent is to organise and report on ride-outs but the site has all sorts of other useful stuff on it. There is a page on riding hints and tips, summarised from the Police rider's manual, ROSPA Advanced Riding and so on. Well worth looking at: http://www.flyingferrets.eclipse.co.uk/info/other/riding%20tips.htm.

[NighthawkNZ]

In using the whole width of the road you get much greater choice of line, more flexibility in road positioning, you extend your sightline, and you can straighten out multiple sharp bends into one or two long flowing curves. Decreasing spiral bends,

But but but.... :scratch: I ride the bike for the twisties... why would I want to straighten them out... If I wanted that I would live on the Canterbury plains... or just wait a bit and in a few years all roads in NZ will be straight... :( well the are straighting alot of my faviorites anyway... :(

Cutting cornings using the on coming traffic lane is a bad habbit full stop... even if you can see round it...

Cutting corners using just your lane, but you should also watch that not just you wheels don't cross the lane but also your head and helmet stay in your lane...

[Okey Dokey]

Have to say that going on the wrong side of the road is not a good thing. I enjoy cornering and leaning in twisty bits, maybe at the expense of going ultra fast.

Sure, it is "different strokes for different folks", but I don't think oncoming traffic will be very impressed with your "skill".

[SPman]

Straightlining on your own side of the road is ok, though.

[MarkH]

The solid centreline question is a hazy one (not legally, I know)
Over here they have passing lanes with double solids at the centre....but....coming the other way in the single lane, there is often 400m plus visibility. And no cars coming the other way as you trail Mr Womble in his 4WD. I pass - it's a no brainer.

I will cross double solids on short straights or twisties, as long as I know I've got minimum 100m vis throughout the manouvre.(and there's no red & blues around). Any doubt at all.....I don't bother.....there's always the next clear stretch.......

Most of the passing lanes I have seen with good visibility have the 'one solid yellow, one dotted white lines'. So if nothing is coming the other way you can pass using the other directions passing lane. This is completely legal, but I notice many cars will sit behind slow vehicles and not bother passing.

[MarkH]

I regularly straight line a set of corners with the following provisos, no yellow lines, clear visibility, no traffic.

I stay on my side of the centreline 99% of the time (unless passing). The only corners I use the other side to straight line on are the ones where there is clear visibility for over 100m and no traffic. Generally the double yellow lines are there for good reason and it is not save to cross them - so you have the double reason no to do it - legal & safety. Riding through a gorge or any road with solid banks that don't allow visibility well ahead means it is safer to slow down and corner on your own side of the road than try to be a megarider/hero/hood ornament.

Where you can see right through the corner well ahead of where you set up your line and you actually do take the time to look well ahead to see that no cars are ahead, then sure why not cut the corner - in all other situation, stick to your own side of the road for you safety and that of other road users! Don't come up to a corner and just cut it because you don't see any vehicles coming the other way - if you didn't scan the road ahead of the corner before you got there to ensure there are no vehicles anywhere close then just stay on your side.

[MarkH]

Here is a good example of what not to do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoHOtB1TaUQ

[pritch]

Straightlining on your own side of the road is ok, though.

Yeah, I used to use the whole road if the visibility allowed. Nick Ienatch's book counselled against that though.

When I thought about it, it did seem a waste to ride for miles, find a nice S bend and then straight line it... Now I basically stick to my own side of the road.

[Blackbird]

Here is a good example of what not to do:



Tee shirts, trainers..... Darwin at work if you ask me:rolleyes:

[MarkH]

Tee shirts, trainers..... Darwin at work if you ask me:rolleyes:

Sure - lack of safety gear is bad in the case of an accident. But it is better to avoid accidents then dress safely for them. When you look at the corner and the road position (remember this is where they drive on the right, left side is for oncoming traffic) then you can see how stupid the rider was. Blind corner, wrong side of the road - WTF! I feel sorry for the car driver - coming around a corner and right in front of you there is a retard on the wrong side of the road coming towards you - bang! :slap:

The real point is that you shouldn't generally be on the other side of the road. If you are going to cross the centre line, either to overtake or to cut a corner, then you need plenty of visibility ahead and a clear road - without these two thing you should stay on your own side of the centre line!

Having fun on a bike can make you feel alive. Being stupid on a bike can make you be dead! Have fun, but be smart!

[NighthawkNZ]

Here is a good example of what not to do:



Heck why would you even think about cutting those corners...?

[skidMark]

I have done it but only when i have overcooked a corner and know it is clear. As an easy la dee daa instead of the whole try not to end up in bitch thing...

But when on a weekend ride when i have gone out there for corners, cutting the corners to make them easier, kind of takes the whole point out of it now dunnit, i want tight corners not turn a 35 into a 55....

[MarkH]

Heck why would you even think about cutting those corners...?

Mental retardation?

[gixermike]

it's probably less use straightlining s bends, but on the entry to left handers it's very usefull. Gives you more sight distance, so more stopping distance so a higher 'safe' speed, or more safety for a given speed.

Not for newbies, but it is taught by the uk police even to joe public, spent an enjoyable two days using both side of the road being closely followed by bikeplod. you just hve to keep in mind you must be able to 'stop on your side of the road in the distance you can see to be clear'

dn't use it like a wide racing line, get out early, have a look...and either stay there if clear, or move straight back in and slow down...

what scares me more are the number of guys going round corners without a visible stopping distance....only takes one tractor / one patch of gravel etc...

[Blackbird]

Yep, I ride out wide sometimes for the very reason you've mentioned, especially with the type of roads that I normally ride on round here:yes::yes:

[Swoop]

Downhill straight (about 100mts) turns into a right hand sweeper. Double yellows all the way. Passing lane 300 mts up the road, clear view through the sweeper (but double yellows remember?)...
Makes you wonder why the 2x yellows are there in the first place, if it is that clear.

[Maha]

Makes you wonder why the 2x yellows are there in the first place, if it is that clear.

Passing lane.

[McJim]

I think the law is supposed to be the same as the UK but got lost in translation.

You are supposed to keep left at all times in the UK. this means on a dual carriageway or motorway if you are in the right hand lane and not actually overtaking anything then *PING* have a fine and some points boyo. This is the context of "Failure to keep left"

However it is permissable to cross a dotted centreline in the UK on a twisty road with good visibility, we get taught that in advanced driving lessons and tests.

The problem arises when most people in NZ haven't experienced a motorway with 6 lanes in each direction and get this piece of legislation handed to them from the government. Now the police don't make the law they only enforce it and it only takes one country bumpkin judge to get the whole thing arse about face and the next thing you know it's legal precedent.

From the outside looking in this is extremely funny and partially causes the laughing stock effect experienced by many kiwis abroad.

It's quite frustrating when you're caught in the middle of it though :Pokey:

[Swoop]

Passing lane.
Aha!
10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 digits.

[Ixion]

I agree that something has gotten lost over the years. For evidenc eof this I point to the distinction between solid white lines and dotted white lines. In NZ , there is no legal difference that I know of. Yet the road markers go to some length to put them down separately. Why ?

I suspect that originally the context was like the UK. Solid white line - do not cross unless overtaking. Dotted line. Keep left but use the far side if safe and appropriate.

Comment from members more antiquated than me is invited.

[MSTRS]

I've only seen the solid white line on the left (road edge) or as a brief lead up to an intersection where the lines are dotted before and after. Sort of the reverse to the yellows which are dotted before becoming solid.

[bikemike]

Not sure about what gixermike says. I had police showing me said technique but advising against it, in the UK. In addition, RoSPA training for Jo Public said (at the time at least) not to do it, except, when pulling out for a view to assess an overtake.

I think it's one of those areas which will be different between the 'highest civilian standard' epithet for RoSPA tests taken by public, and Police standard.
Off-siding is something generally to be saved for when progress must be made by the Police.

I think the biggest risk for this technique, especially for newbies, is arriving too fast at the next corner, quite apart from any unexpected event causing you to take a different line (as Ixion also said). If you are not at the stage where you are linking, two or three bends, rather than riding one at a time, then definitely DO NOT DO THIS. You will come in too fast from an off-side, fixate, and go over the edge or into something else.

However, legal imperatives aside, I also consider this an extension of the simple technique we all (except scooterists) use, using all of our lane. Clearly we do that for safety, and visibility at whatever speed. It is a small logical step to include the other lane in this approach.

Provisos are no oncoming traffic, you are planning the next corner - not just cutting round this one.

I mostly use it when I can see the camber line is better if I start off-side, or, simply to exaggerate my visibility advantage on approach to open left handers where I can see there is no traffic but where I cannot see all the road surface, due to a lowish hedge for example.

Apart from corners, I use it on straights, off-siding that is. Wide open road with one concealed entrance on the left. No other hazards, no traffic. Think I will stay on the left? No.

[Blackbird]

..........

I mostly use it when I can see the camber line is better if I start off-side, or, simply to exaggerate my visibility advantage on approach to open left handers where I can see there is no traffic but where I cannot see all the road surface, due to a lowish hedge for example.

Apart from corners, I use it on straights, off-siding that is. Wide open road with one concealed entrance on the left. No other hazards, no traffic. Think I will stay on the left? No.

Interestingly, since starting this discussion, I've become aware that I use this technique a little more than I thought I did. Guess that's because it's another of those ingrained skills. On the approach to left handers, I do sit out wide when appropriate to get a better view which is only an extension of normal roadcraft anyway. I only straightline on linked bends where there is good forward visibility but they are almost always low speed ones. However, in agreement with others who voice concern; the worry for me is that it does require judgement/experience and perhaps is is something that Allan Kirk should not have publicly advocated in print.

Legal connotations aside for a moment, it's been an excellent discussion and many thanks to everyone for the extremely thoughtful and considered replies.

Geoff

[MSTRS]

I think the biggest risk for this technique, especially for newbies, is arriving too fast at the next corner, quite apart from any unexpected event causing you to take a different line (as Ixion also said). If you are not at the stage where you are linking, two or three bends, rather than riding one at a time, then definitely DO NOT DO THIS. You will come in too fast from an off-side, fixate, and go over the edge or into something else.



This is an excellent bit of advice.
For newbies, every corner is in isolation, and it can take a lot of saddle time to learn the technique of linked corners.
For the more experienced, it should simply be un-necessary to use the opposing lane.

[NordieBoy]

For some time now, cops have been sitting at the top of Weld Pass (SH1 south of Blenheim) from time to time, photographing and ticketing people they see crossing the centre line on the way up.

Takaka Hill a few years ago too.
One guy in the bushes above the road photoing and calling his mate down the road to pull you over.

[NordieBoy]

I agree that something has gotten lost over the years. For evidenc eof this I point to the distinction between solid white lines and dotted white lines. In NZ , there is no legal difference that I know of. Yet the road markers go to some length to put them down separately. Why ?

I suspect that originally the context was like the UK. Solid white line - do not cross unless overtaking. Dotted line. Keep left but use the far side if safe and appropriate.

Comment from members more antiquated than me is invited.

Solid white line is a no cross.
A mate filtered up to a 2 lane roundabout and got pinged for crossing the solid white line right near the actual roundabout.
The cop said if he'd pulled back in on the dotted bit he would have been fine and had no problem with the filtering.

[scumdog]

For some time now, cops have been sitting at the top of Weld Pass (SH1 south of Blenheim) from time to time, photographing and ticketing people they see crossing the centre line on the way up.

They do it up Queenstown way, catch a lot of idiots doing it, I've seen pics some of the trucks 'straightening the corners' have their right wheels kissing the fog-line on the wrong side of the road - and with limited visibility.

Imagine you're fanging towards them on your favourite scoot, almost nowhere to go....

[Skyryder]

Straightlining equals Mainlining. Sooner or later it will all turn to custard.

I had a near miss when I had a Talbot. Long story not for here. One day on the piss.:2guns::2guns:


Skyryder

[swbarnett]

Straightlining equals Mainlining. Sooner or later it will all turn to custard.

I had a near miss when I had a Talbot. Long story not for here. One day on the piss.:2guns::2guns:


Skyryder
So, if I read this right, straightlining wasn't the problem.

[Skyryder]

So, if I read this right, straightlining wasn't the problem.


I'll give ya the long version if we ever meet. Had a chat with Buelbabe when she was down here a week or two back. Some talk about a midnight run on the motorway when I 'm up in Auckereland next. :beer:



Skyryder

[Shadows]

The only "straightlining" I ever do is within my own lane.

My view on this is remains as I've said before.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1354629&postcount=76

[swbarnett]

The only "straightlining" I ever do is within my own lane.

My view on this is remains as I've said before.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1354629&postcount=76
I have straight-lined corners both in a car and on a bike. I would never do it unless I had full, unfettered visibility of the entire length of road where I was using the other lane. Plus a reasonable margin to account for traffic coming around the next corner. I would never even consider doing it past a driveway. Or even where one might be.

In essence, I agree with you that straight-lining under the circumstances that you describe is a tad silly to say the least. However, I still think that used properly, there's nothing dangerous about it.

[Oscar]

I have straight-lined corners both in a car and on a bike. I would never do it unless I had full, unfettered visibility of the entire length of road where I was using the other lane. Plus a reasonable margin to account for traffic coming around the next corner. I would never even consider doing it past a driveway. Or even where one might be.

In essence, I agree with you that straight-lining under the circumstances that you describe is a tad silly to say the least. However, I still think that used properly, there's nothing dangerous about it.

I also use the technique occasionally when visibility is excellent.
I've been riding bikes for 30 odd years, so I like to think I have the experience and skill to do that sort of thing.

However, by it's very nature this type of training material is going to be read by learners, and learners make mistakes (God knows I did when I started). I think that giving this this advise to squids is verging on criminally negligent...

[swbarnett]

I think that giving this this advise to squids is verging on criminally negligent...
I totally agree.

[Usarka]

I haven't read all the replies (boo hiss they say) and don't have an opinion except:

when you are changing lanes to execute the manoeuvre do you check to make sure no one is passing you on that piece of corner? :sherlock:

[swbarnett]

I haven't read all the replies (boo hiss they say) and don't have an opinion except:

when you are changing lanes to execute the manoeuvre do you check to make sure no one is passing you on that piece of corner? :sherlock:
I for one wouldn't even think of straight lining unless I'm the only vehicle in sitght - front, rear and sides.

[NighthawkNZ]

I said once I say it again I ride cause I like the corners...:D errrr why would I want to stright line???


I not see the logic...

[idb]

I said once I say it again I ride cause I like the corners...:D errrr why would I want to stright line???


I not see the logic...

That's the right answer!!!

[scumdog]

I for one wouldn't even think of straight lining unless I'm the only vehicle in sitght - front, rear and sides.

My 2-cents (like you care)

Straight roads can be good...cruising along, day-dreaming, dwelling on life..bike on auto-pilot...time to admire the scenery that's not just the nearest 100 metres or so of tar-seal..time to focus on scents, scenery, nature..
Yes, a long straight road CAN be fun.:yes:

[idb]

My 2-cents (like you care)

Straight roads can be good...cruising along, day-dreaming, dwelling on life..bike on auto-pilot...time to admire the scenery that's not just the nearest 100 metres or so of tar-seal..time to focus on scents, scenery, nature..
Yes, a long straight road CAN be fun.:yes:

True, on the right bike.
The Darmah so-so, 888 bad!

[NighthawkNZ]

Yes, a long straight road CAN be fun.:yes:

what are you smoking/drinking... :scratch: must be some good shit... oh and can I have some.... :blink::rofl:

[scumdog]

what are you smoking/drinking... :scratch: must be some good shit... oh and can I have some.... :blink::rofl:

Soooo, you've never put your feet up on the highway pegs, tightened the throttle screw and laid-back and just wafted along with no worries???

PS: Ya need a cruiser (a Harley would be good) an open-face helmet, fingerless gloves plus a few tassles on the bike to get the REAL atmosphere...:devil2:

[idb]

Soooo, you've never put your feet up on the highway pegs, tightened the throttle screw and laid-back and just wafted along with no worries???

PS: Ya need a cruiser (a Harley would be good) an open-face helmet, fingerless gloves plus a few tassles on the bike to get the REAL atmosphere...:devil2:

Back to the tassels...always the tassels!!!!

[NighthawkNZ]

Soooo, you've never put your feet up on the highway pegs, tightened the throttle screw and laid-back and just wafted along with no worries???

PS: Ya need a cruiser (a Harley would be good) an open-face helmet, fingerless gloves plus a few tassles on the bike to get the REAL atmosphere...:devil2:

I'm not old enough yeeeeetttt... couple more months... :rofl:




actually I did try your highway pegs... and when I came to change back to the standard pegs I couldn't find someone had moved them forward... :scratch:

[scumdog]

I'm not old enough yeeeeetttt... couple more months... :rofl:




actually I did try your highway pegs... and when I came to change back to the standard pegs I couldn't find someone had moved them forward... :scratch:

Practice Grasshopper, practice...

Normally I anticipate the need for using the 'middle' pegs..and it pays off too!!

As it was your first ride I can forgive you.:confused:

[swbarnett]

My 2-cents (like you care)

Straight roads can be good...cruising along, day-dreaming, dwelling on life..bike on auto-pilot...time to admire the scenery that's not just the nearest 100 metres or so of tar-seal..time to focus on scents, scenery, nature..
Yes, a long straight road CAN be fun.:yes:
Very true. It very much depends on the mood. And the bike. Haven't been doing much straight-lining in the past couple of years. Although the past week I've been using my wife's bike. The 600 Hornet is quite a rush after the GN. If only I'd been a bit more cautious with my pennies...

[scumdog]

Very true. It very much depends on the mood. And the bike. Haven't been doing much straight-lining in the past couple of years. Although the past week I've been using my wife's bike. The 600 Hornet is quite a rush after the GN. If only I'd been a bit more cautious with my pennies...

Glad SOMEBODY sees where I'm coming from...:wacko:,

[NighthawkNZ]

As it was your first ride I can forgive you.:confused:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Gassit Girl]

The neat thing about corners is having to lean! I don't see why anyone would want to cut them and turn the experience into into a straight road. Especially when it puts you on the wrong side of the road and you could meet another "megarider" doing the same thing from the other side!

People have talked about 100% visibility on a corner... I spose that does apply to those 'wide sweeping chicane' type corners where because of the S shape you can see out the other side - but you still don't get much leeway to deal with vehicles popping out of driveways and side roads etc who don't expect to see you on their side of the road when they turn onto it. To me, that isn't 100% vis.

[MarkH]

People have talked about 100% visibility on a corner... I spose that does apply to those 'wide sweeping chicane' type corners where because of the S shape you can see out the other side - but you still don't get much leeway to deal with vehicles popping out of driveways and side roads etc who don't expect to see you on their side of the road when they turn onto it. To me, that isn't 100% vis.

If there is a driveway that you can't see a car on then it is NOT 100% visibility, therefore you should NOT cut the corner. But there are corners in NZ where there is true 100% vis - for all the rest I prefer to stay on my own side of the centreline.

[rocketman1]

Hey I know what you are saying but, given all the tangible events that could eventuate to impair your vision when cornering, sunlight in your eyes , dirty visors, green car backing green hedges etc etc... i could go on, you only need one occurrence in 10,000 corners where you don't see the vehicle coming the other ways and your history.. Not worth the effort in my book
I will admit to cutting corners when vision is excellent and you can see forever that there is no cars, ie. more often than not when you are coming down a hill and you have the advantage of a birds I view to see there are no cars about, will i cut a corner, never anywhere else.
I consider my self quite experienced at riding, and I can quickly correct the steering to get out the way of cars, but I dont trust my eyesight and luck

Good luck to you though, you may need it.

[reofix]

wow... at last a technique that turns twisties into a straight line... if this is "advanced technique" ... just consider me retarded

[Shadows]

wow... at last a technique that turns twisties into a straight line... if this is "advanced technique" ... just consider me retarded

True, that. It takes so long to find a corner down here it would be a crime to waste it.

[Mooch]

Even though this is an old thread many of us that have done some of Alan Kirks courses 20 or more years back learnt a lot about mental thinking whilst on a bike.

I could probably name about 15 -20 people that have done his courses in the late 1980s that are still riding today.

This cornering technique should not be taken in isolation from his series of courses he ran in the 1980s / 1990s.

In context he also ran a series of courses that took you from the basics of motorcycle handling, through to intermediate road riding skills, also ran combination course bike handling skills that would take your standard road bike on the gravel roads and got you to ride at a competent level on gravel. (One place where I do straight line if conditions permit)

Courses then carried on to advanced road riding and track work with the emphasis on control and learning lean angle. He'd often get you to ride around the track without using brakes, which makes you think about bike position, entry speed, lean angle. At about this point the use of vanishing point & straight lining came into the teaching not before.

More importantly he'd give you feedback on how you were riding based on real experence.

So take Allan's teaching into the proper context and don't judge it by a couple of paragraphs of text. Attend some motorcycle courses and find out for yourselves.

[scracha]

Cut the farkin corners when the road is clear and to hell with the coppers. Twice the road width = MUCH more cornering speed.

[MarkH]

Cut the farkin corners when the road is clear and to hell with the coppers. Twice the road width = MUCH more cornering speed.

Definitely - as long as you have good visibility through the entire corner and a decent amount beyond, and no hazards exist. If you are 100% sure it is safe then fine, otherwise err on the side of caution and stick to your own side of the road.

[vifferman]

... learnt a lot about mental thinking whilst on a bike.
Yeah, I've done a bit of mental thinking (because of too many drugs making me mental). Like, "Oh... the traffic's not moving. I could cut up the inside but if that truck moves forward, I could be squashed against the curb. I know - I could take a shortcut around it on the footpath!"
Or: "Yeah, I reckon I can fit between that car and truck..."
And: "Oh - he's seen me; he's pulled into the curb. I can go past safely." (right before he cracked a u-turn).

Careful thinking (or thinking things through more'n once) is probably a better bet than mental thinking. :weird:

[OutForADuck]

As an instructor in the UK we did teach this technique and it was from the Police advanced skills course. BUT... the caveat was like this... use offsiding to make use of the maximum visibility NOT to increase your visibility.

I.e. if you can see that the road is clear, straightline in safety as it is always safer traveling in a striaght line and voiding road edges where possible.

However if you are offsiding in which to increase your visibility by definition you are going onto the other side of the road to see if anything is coming toward you on that side???? Pretty dumb idea I would think and a very good cause of Panic SR's stuffing up what would have been a calculated 10-20% margin.

Personally I think straightlining is a better description of it as it applies most often in a series of corners where you can clearly see a straight and safe line down the middle.

BTW the NZ Police treat crossing the white line unneccessarily and without indicating as careless driving so beware!!!

[scumdog]

Definitely - as long as you have good visibility through the entire corner and a decent amount beyond, and no hazards exist.

True.
But those that hit objects while cutting corners did so because it seemed to them they had good visibility and no hazards existed - up until point of impact.

Do what you want, it's your life - just be aware it may not go according to plan...

[fatzx10r]

why would you even want to straight line corner's.... boring

[MarkH]

True.
But those that hit objects while cutting corners did so because it seemed to them they had good visibility and no hazards existed - up until point of impact.

Do what you want, it's your life - just be aware it may not go according to plan...

Doesn't that also apply when not cutting corners?

Personally I don't bother cutting corners unless I am SURE that it is safe to do so. That usually means a corner that I know, that I have good visibility on and that I KNOW that I have good visibility on. The difference is between: "not being able to see any hazards" and "being able to see that there are no hazards" - if you don't understand the difference between those two things then don't cut corners!

[NighthawkNZ]

why would you even want to straight line corner's.... boring

thats what I said... :mellow:

[fatzx10r]

thats what I said... :mellow:

well.... great mind's think alike :jerry:

[NighthawkNZ]

Doesn't that also apply when not cutting corners?

Personally I don't bother cutting corners unless I am SURE that it is safe to do so. That usually means a corner that I know, that I have good visibility on and that I KNOW that I have good visibility on. The difference is between: "not being able to see any hazards" and "being able to see that there are no hazards" - if you don't understand the difference between those two things then don't cut corners!


And as Tom said


But those that hit objects while cutting corners did so because it seemed to them they had good visibility and no hazards existed - up until point of impact.

You may know the road, You may know the corner, and you may think that its clear, and it may seem clear...

There could be a car wanting to pull out into that lane and not see you, not expecting you to be there because simply put you shouldn't be

its just simply a bad habbit to to do... and again why would you want to straighten the corners anyway... they are the main reason you like riding... :D

[MarkH]

And as Tom said



You may know the road, You may know the corner, and you may think that its clear, and it may seem clear...

There could be a car wanting to pull out into that lane and not see you, not expecting you to be there because simply put you shouldn't be

its just simply a bad habbit to to do... and again why would you want to straighten the corners anyway... they are the main reason you like riding... :D

An invisible car? If there is anywhere where a car could pull out from that you cannot see then you do NOT have good visibility. If there are driveways where cars could pull out from that have thick hedges or whatever then you should stay on your own side of the road. The only corners I cut are exceptions, I do not make a habit of cutting corners. There are plenty of times where I could cut the corner safely, but I don't bother - I usually am not pushing things to the limit and can comfortably make the corners without using the wrong side of the road.


To answer the why - I am pretty sure people that cut corners to allow a greater cornering speed. But of course people shouldn't ride bikes to go fast.

[swbarnett]

If you are 100% sure it is safe then fine, otherwise err on the side of caution
You ride a bike, right? You'd better sell it if you want to be 100% safe. And for that matter, you'd better build a concrete bunker filled with cotton wool and never go out again. No, wait, even that's not 100% safe.

[swbarnett]

Do what you want, it's your life - just be aware it may not go according to plan...

This has to be one of the most intelligent comments I've read on here! If only the law makers could see the logic in this.

[Mooch]

Yeah, I've done a bit of mental thinking (because of too many drugs making me mental). Like, "Oh... the traffic's not moving. I could cut up the inside but if that truck moves forward, I could be squashed against the curb. I know - I could take a shortcut around it on the footpath!"
Or: "Yeah, I reckon I can fit between that car and truck..."
And: "Oh - he's seen me; he's pulled into the curb. I can go past safely." (right before he cracked a u-turn).

Careful thinking (or thinking things through more'n once) is probably a better bet than mental thinking. :weird:

Good piss take ! Careful thinking / mental thinking same outcome, at least you’re thinking... you’re more prepared. Let use know when you progress pass near stationary traffic. You might be ready for the next step :msn-wink:

Either that, your an absolute expert in all things to do with riding in which case,can you teach me ...... Please ....I'm mentally prepared

[Mooch]

Cut the farkin corners when the road is clear and to hell with the coppers. Twice the road width = MUCH more cornering speed.

How's the 748R going , have you been able to tame the beast ?

[MarkH]

You ride a bike, right? You'd better sell it if you want to be 100% safe. And for that matter, you'd better build a concrete bunker filled with cotton wool and never go out again. No, wait, even that's not 100% safe.

Way to show your lack of reading comprehension there buddy. :niceone:

If you re-read the bit that you cut out when you quoted me it should be obvious what my point was. Riding a motorcycle is dangerous and cutting the corners adds more danger than is necessary to have fun riding - don't do it (cut corners) if you are not completely sure it is safe. If you feel you can never be completely sure than just don't cut the corners. If you want to extend my point about avoiding risk to not riding at all then that would be your choice - the rest of us understand that SOME risk is necessary to living our lives.

I am sure that most KBers can understand there is a big difference between choosing not to cut corners because it is dangerous and choosing not to ride bikes at all because it is dangerous. Most of us understand that we do take risks by riding, but we don't need to extend the risk taking to riding like Ghost Rider - just because you take A risk it doesn't mean you should take EVERY risk!

[Oscar]

I am sure that most KBers can understand there is a big difference between choosing not to cut corners because it is dangerous and choosing not to ride bikes at all because it is dangerous. Most of us understand that we do take risks by riding, but we don't need to extend the risk taking to riding like Ghost Rider - just because you take A risk it doesn't mean you should take EVERY risk!

Quite right. I think some confuse confidence levels v. skill levels.

Straight lining corners is a thing I do occasionally, because I think I have the experience and the skill to do it.

Would I recommend it to a novice?

Certainly not.

What worries me is the possibility that the people who take this course have a confidence level that is inflated by a certificate received from Mr. Kirk.

Is this confidence commensurate with their skill?
Straight lining a corner is no place to find out...

[Usarka]

I overtook a campervan on a corner only to find the driver considered "straightlining" was a good idea.......

Every one does check their six before changing lanes don't they...? :Police:

[NighthawkNZ]

I still don't get why you would want to take away the corners... :scratch: basically it tells me not to ride with you as can not stick to your own lane, you have taken a corner to hot blah blah blah...

And I mean the government is straighten enough roads as it is??? why would you want to straighten it more... sheese

[Chrislost]

so, ummmm.
what the fuck is the point? if your going so fast that you need to use the other lane then you need to learn to turn a bike or slow down.

option 2 being the more roadworthy one, option 1 being the best.

by the way, most people straightline corners because they fucked up on the straight beforehand(toooo fasttt) brake hard, panic and ended up in the wrong place(ditch or oncoming lane)

my $.00002 worth

[Benk]

Thanks for the illustration Chris. Very graphic. And nice paint skills by the way. :laugh:

I agree, and cant believe this thread is still kicking.

Whoops, just helped keep it alive again.

[swbarnett]

Way to show your lack of reading comprehension there buddy. :niceone:
I comprehend fine.

For the sake of clarity I'll leave the rest of your post completely intact:


If you re-read the bit that you cut out when you quoted me it should be obvious what my point was. Riding a motorcycle is dangerous and cutting the corners adds more danger than is necessary to have fun riding - don't do it (cut corners) if you are not completely sure it is safe. If you feel you can never be completely sure than just don't cut the corners. If you want to extend my point about avoiding risk to not riding at all then that would be your choice - the rest of us understand that SOME risk is necessary to living our lives.

I am sure that most KBers can understand there is a big difference between choosing not to cut corners because it is dangerous and choosing not to ride bikes at all because it is dangerous. Most of us understand that we do take risks by riding, but we don't need to extend the risk taking to riding like Ghost Rider - just because you take A risk it doesn't mean you should take EVERY risk!


Riding a motorcycle is dangerous and cutting the corners adds more danger than is necessary to have fun riding - don't do it (cut corners) if you are not completely sure it is safe.
This is the bit I take issue with. First you say that "riding a motorcyle is dangerous" and then you claim that it is possible to be "completely sure it is safe", which is it?

[MarkH]

This is the bit I take issue with. First you say that "riding a motorcyle is dangerous" and then you claim that it is possible to be "completely sure it is safe", which is it?

I am now sure you are just deliberately refusing to understand for whatever reason you may have. "completely sure" in this instance refers to having confidence that you have been able to fully evaluate the corner ahead and been able to see that no hazards are present. "safe" would be a relative term, kind of like "safe to cross the road" where crossing the road is more dangerous than being in a concrete bunker but with caution it can be done with minimal risk to your life. Have you ever heard of the word "safer"? The existence of such a word suggests that there are different degrees of "safe" and that it is therefore not an absolute.

I doubt any one but you is having trouble understanding my point. I am saying that before cutting a corner you should be completely sure that there are no hazards that would make that manoeuvre particularly dangerous. What I mean by this is before cutting the corner you should be able to see all the way through the corner and beyond and be able to tell that there are no cars on the road coming towards you and no cars that could pull on to the road. It should be safe to cut the corner in that it is no more dangerous than staying in your own lane - if there is a significant increase in danger by crossing the centre line then you should ride on your own side. Generally you should not even bother worrying about whether to cut the corner or not and just have fun riding your bike on your own side of the road.

There are corners in NZ surrounded by flat farm land and with wire fencing so that you can easily see the entire corner as you approach. There are also corners that are blind (banks, buildings, trees, hedges, etc) and you cannot see if there is traffic coming the other way - I am saying that you should not cut these corners.

[swbarnett]

I am now sure you are just deliberately refusing to understand for whatever reason you may have.
No, I'm not refusing. I will admit that I'm being pedantic about the wording.


"completely sure" in this instance refers to having confidence that you have been able to fully evaluate the corner ahead and been able to see that no hazards are present. "safe" would be a relative term, kind of like "safe to cross the road" where crossing the road is more dangerous than being in a concrete bunker but with caution it can be done with minimal risk to your life. Have you ever heard of the word "safer"? The existence of such a word suggests that there are different degrees of "safe" and that it is therefore not an absolute.
Agreed, "safe" is a relative term, "completely safe" is not.


I doubt any one but you is having trouble understanding my point.
Of this I have no doubt. As I said above, I do tend to be fairly pedantic about using the correct words for the intended meaning.


I am saying that before cutting a corner you should be completely sure that there are no hazards that would make that manoeuvre particularly dangerous. What I mean by this is before cutting the corner you should be able to see all the way through the corner and beyond and be able to tell that there are no cars on the road coming towards you and no cars that could pull on to the road. It should be safe to cut the corner in that it is no more dangerous than staying in your own lane - if there is a significant increase in danger by crossing the centre line then you should ride on your own side. Generally you should not even bother worrying about whether to cut the corner or not and just have fun riding your bike on your own side of the road.

There are corners in NZ surrounded by flat farm land and with wire fencing so that you can easily see the entire corner as you approach. There are also corners that are blind (banks, buildings, trees, hedges, etc) and you cannot see if there is traffic coming the other way - I am saying that you should not cut these corners.
Now this I can completely agree with. No use of absolute terms where you intended a relative meaning.

Please forgive me if I'm being a bit anal about this. I don't like the implication that being "completely safe" (as in 100% safe) is even possible.

I think in the end our only disagreement has been the interpretation of terminology.

[MarkH]

Agreed, "safe" is a relative term, "completely safe" is not.

I am not sure that I have ever used "completely safe", if I have it was unintentional - I never think of anything as completely safe. When I say "completely sure that it is safe" I don't mean "sure that it is completely safe" because if that was what I meant then that would be what I said (unless I accidentally said something different to what I meant). In "completely sure that it is safe" the word "safe" is intended on it's own as a relative term, "completely sure" is intended to mean at the least "very very sure" or "with as much certainty as you can ever have in these things".

My message has simply been that if you think that it is probably safe to cut the corner because there are no cars coming the other way that you can see then you should not consider that good enough to risk a head on collision by crossing the centre line. You should be much more certain than that of the relative safety before considering crossing the centre line. Hopefully most here can understand my point and will avoid casually and carelessly risking death just to get through a corner at a little higher speed.

[Oscar]

I am not sure that I have ever used "completely safe", if I have it was unintentional - I never think of anything as completely safe. When I say "completely sure that it is safe" I don't mean "sure that it is completely safe" because if that was what I meant then that would be what I said (unless I accidentally said something different to what I meant). In "completely sure that it is safe" the word "safe" is intended on it's own as a relative term, "completely sure" is intended to mean at the least "very very sure" or "with as much certainty as you can ever have in these things".

My message has simply been that if you think that it is probably safe to cut the corner because there are no cars coming the other way that you can see then you should not consider that good enough to risk a head on collision by crossing the centre line. You should be much more certain than that of the relative safety before considering crossing the centre line. Hopefully most here can understand my point and will avoid casually and carelessly risking death just to get through a corner at a little higher speed.

Most?
Whadda the rest do?
Die painfully?

[NighthawkNZ]

My message has simply been that if you think that it is probably safe to cut the corner because there are no cars coming the other way that you can see then you should not consider that good enough to risk a head on collision by crossing the centre line. You should be much more certain than that of the relative safety before considering crossing the centre line. Hopefully most here can understand my point and will avoid casually and carelessly risking death just to get through a corner at a little higher speed.


There is only 2 reasons I can see why some one would want to cut corners...

1. To get where they are going quicker, or to be on time... Simple fix. Leave earlier.
2. You over cooked a corner because you are going to fast. Simple fix. Slow the fuck down.

simply don't do it... there is no need to do it... none what so ever...

[MarkH]

Most?
Whadda the rest do?
Die painfully?

I suppose some might. I guess everyone will do what they want, hopefully very few will take needless risks and come to severe misfortune.

More importantly I hope that things don't turn pear shaped for me in a major way. I don't know everything so I will go to the RRRS course tomorrow to see if I can learn how to reduce the risk of dying on a bike for me.

[Oscar]

I suppose some might. I guess everyone will do what they want, hopefully very few will take needless risks and come to severe misfortune.

More importantly I hope that things don't turn pear shaped for me in a major way. I don't know everything so I will go to the RRRS course tomorrow to see if I can learn how to reduce the risk of dying on a bike for me.

Then maybe you should wait until after your course before offering advice on-line...

[MarkH]

Then maybe you should wait until after your course before offering advice on-line...

Why? Will I become some kind of expert once I have done that course? Is everyone else offering advice & opinion on this forum a graduate of that course? Is 26+ years of driving & riding on the roads in New Zealand meaningless until I do a RRRS course?

[Oscar]

Why? Will I become some kind of expert once I have done that course? Is everyone else offering advice & opinion on this forum a graduate of that course? Is 26+ years of driving & riding on the roads in New Zealand meaningless until I do a RRRS course?


Will you become an expert?
Based on your comments here, I doubt that one course will do it.

As far as I'm concerned, my expert piece of advice would be along the lines of:

Don't do it.
Don't offer advice that advocates crossing the centreline on a forum where you know young and inexperienced riders will be participating.

[MarkH]

Don't offer advice that advocates crossing the centreline on a forum where you know young and inexperienced riders will be participating.

So instead of a public forum where we can freely express our opinions we should keep quiet for fear of someone killing themselves because they took something said on this forum and misapplied it?

If we don't say there are situations where it is safe to cross the centre line then inexperienced riders wont do it?

[scumdog]

If we don't say there are situations where it is safe to cross the centre line then inexperienced riders wont do it?

No - but they might think twice before trying it.

Younger ones tend to think older/more experienced riders are gurus and know it all.

And think just because an older rider has survived bad judgements that they too will survive them.

[Subike]

I think that any new rider reading this thread would understand that the risks involved cutting corners have been well explained.
Any long term rider could also see from this thread that straight lining corners may not be a "safe" option, if they were to go by the reasonably high percentage of riders who have posted here that it is not "reasonably safe" to straightline corners.
Now the big trick is!
How do you get people not to ride in a way that is going to include "straight lining corners"
You can not stop a person making that choice!
But as most have done here, we can advise against it, give good reasons why it should not be done, give examples of what can result from doing it, even post pics or vids showing the aftermath of straight lining cornering.
In the end the result will be more information to those who bother to read the whole thread.
The best we can ever hope for is that somewhere on a New Zealand road, a rider from KB will remember reading this thread, and not cut a corner, thus by doing so, misses hitting that vehicle he did not see.
All of our opinions, for and against, have made for a good discuission that has kept this in our faces for this week at least.
Which is a good thing, that the start of the summer season, to be reminded to be carefull out there.
My opinion on the subject?
I love corners, so the white line I treat as a wall, even when I can see the way is clear.

[scumdog]

My opinion on the subject?
I love corners, so the white line I treat as a wall, even when I can see the way is clear.

Hell bro, ya said a mouthful there, spot-on!!:2thumbsup

[NighthawkNZ]

I love corners, so the white line I treat as a wall, even when I can see the way is clear.

Me to... my lane is my lane... and has walls on both sides... I don't need any more room :mellow:

[Oscar]

So instead of a public forum where we can freely express our opinions we should keep quiet for fear of someone killing themselves because they took something said on this forum and misapplied it?

If we don't say there are situations where it is safe to cross the centre line then inexperienced riders wont do it?

By all means express your opinions, but bear in mind the consequences of offering it. I am expressing my opinion and at the risk of repeating myself - posting condensed versions of riding techniques completely out of context is fucking dangerous.

[motorbyclist]

ok, i'm not going to read all these posts, but i'm with katman on this one:

what if you come across someone cutting the corner? then you're relying on BOTH your reflexes when one (or both) of you are clearly incompent.

it's only worthwhile in an open environment, but then you can see the road ahead anyway so don't need to get more visibility.



and who cares that you can carry an extra bit of speed? you technically widened the corner to acheive it - why not just find a straigh fucking road and go flat tack down that if you're going to cut all the corners anyway? could just lean a bit more.

learn to corner.

[BMWST?]

the police will view the practise as failing to kep left...period
It is a valid technique..just as valid as making a corner as straight as possible on your side of the road,or positioning yourself to maximise your vision or your visiblility..obviously you do it only when visiblity is very good...there is NO chance of meeting another vehicle.

[scumdog]

.obviously you do it only when visiblity is very good...there is NO chance of meeting another vehicle.


Like say a cop-car???

[SpeedMonger]

Personally, i get more satisfation out of maintaining velocity/momentum and staying in my own lane on both bike and in my cages, it's somewhat more challenging. Especially enjoy keeping up with someone who thinks they are quick - straightlining the twisties whilst I keep between the lines, fun showing the useless pricks up.

[scumdog]

Personally, i get more satisfation out of maintaining velocity/momentum and staying in my own lane on both bike and in my cages, it's somewhat more challenging. Especially enjoy keeping up with someone who thinks they are quick - straightlining the twisties whilst I keep between the lines, fun showing the useless pricks up.


True - after all what use is it if you can only cut some corners but not others - especially the corner you can't see around??

And the ones you know are the ones you shouldn't need to cut...

[swbarnett]

When I say "completely sure that it is safe" I don't mean "sure that it is completely safe"
Aha! Now we see the crux of the matter. It does seem that I read something in to what you said that was not there. My apologies.

[scracha]

so, ummmm.
what the fuck is the point? if your going so fast that you need to use the other lane then you need to learn to turn a bike or slow down.
my $.00002 worth

Disagree and always will. This question has been argued to death on here.....even with crappy ms paint drawings.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showpost.php?p=1354035&postcount=44

[swbarnett]

A question for those that have argued that there is no point to straight-lining because they like corners. When was the last time you went for a blat and stayed parallel to the centre line on every corner? You are in essence doing what you say there's no point to. Using the whole road to do it where appropriate is merely an extension of your own corner lines.

[NighthawkNZ]

A question for those that have argued that there is no point to straight-lining because they like corners. When was the last time you went for a blat and stayed parallel to the centre line on every corner? You are in essence doing what you say there's no point to. Using the whole road to do it where appropriate is merely an extension of your own corner lines.


There is a huge bloody difference between straightening your lane and straightening the whole road...

[swbarnett]

There is a huge bloody difference between straightening your lane and straightening the whole road...
I agree that there is a big difference in the safety concerns. This is why it's something I seldom do as most corners are not suitable.

My point was aimed at those who can't understand why anyone would want to do it. It has been said that people enjoy corners and, therefore, don't see the point of straight-lining. My question in response is that if they enjoy corners so much why do they straighten them, even if they are staying in their own lane?

[MarkH]

My point was aimed at those who can't understand why anyone would want to do it. It has been said that people enjoy corners and, therefore, don't see the point of straight-lining. My question in response is that if they enjoy corners so much why do they straighten them, even if they are staying in their own lane?

For that matter - why don't those people ride inside-outside-inside to exaggerate every corner they come to?

There are plenty of roads in NZ with fun corners, even if now and again you might cut one. I loved the Waihi-Whangamata and Whangamata-Kopu roads on Saturday - fun in the twisties and only one corner that I crossed the centre line on (a huge amount of corners that I would never consider cutting).

[scumdog]

An invisible car? If there is anywhere where a car could pull out from that you cannot see then you do NOT have good visibility..

The cemetery has some fine riders resting in it.
The very same riders that did not know there WAS a car they could not see in a location they did not realise existed for such a situation to occur, THEY thought they had 'good visibility'.

THAT was the 'invisible' car.....

[NighthawkNZ]

My point was aimed at those who can't understand why anyone would want to do it. It has been said that people enjoy corners and, therefore, don't see the point of straight-lining. My question in response is that if they enjoy corners so much why do they straighten them, even if they are staying in their own lane?

I go wider on the right handed corner so when the bike is in the lean I don't put me head over the white line so it don't get knocked off by an on coming car... I try not to cut the corner and put any part of me or the bike in the on coming traffic lane... It has happened on occassion we I completely fuck up the line and miss judged the corner... I am usually killing myself when I do...

I cut the left handed corners to the whit line as it makes them tighter and more fun... I try not to go too wide and go in to the other lane

[MarkH]

The cemetery has some fine riders resting in it.
The very same riders that did not know there WAS a car they could not see in a location they did not realise existed for such a situation to occur, THEY thought they had 'good visibility'.

All I know is that I have ridden on roads that have nowhere for a car or even a small dog to hide. Think flat farmland and wire fences. But the general habit should be to NOT cut corners, the corners that you might cut are the exception and you can just use them to practise cornering well without cutting anyway. No one NEEDS to cut corners, it is possible to ride the length and breadth of the country without using the entire road on corners.

If you do want to cut a corner then you should plan it well ahead, this means you will need to be able to see all the way through the corner and beyond well before you get to the corner. If this can't be achieved then don't worry - you can always ride around the corner in your own lane, it's not that hard to do.

Note: I have never advocated making corner cutting a regular practise or suggested that learner should do it at all. The risk is often not worth it - head-on collisions are worst type and you don't want to risk that on a regular basis. If you are not confident that it is safe to cross the centre line then DON'T! You will get more riding done and have more fun if you are alive to do it.

[Shadows]

My question in response is that if they enjoy corners so much why do they straighten them, even if they are staying in their own lane?


For that matter - why don't those people ride inside-outside-inside to exaggerate every corner they come to?

For fuckssakes. What a pathetic argument.

You guys are missing the point entirely.

[swbarnett]

For fuckssakes. What a pathetic argument.

You guys are missing the point entirely.
As I understand it from previous posts in this thread:

1. Crossing the centre line on ANY corner is just to dangerous to be worth it.

2. There's no point to straight lining because bikes are made to take corners.

Does this about sum it up? Did I miss anything?

My answer to point 1 is that, yes, crossing the centre line on a corner is more dangerous than staying on your own side. But, like any technique on a bike, done properly the risk is well within acceptable limits (for me anyway, your risk threshold may be lower than mine). Also, staying more upright has got to reduce your chances of a low side.

In response to point 2 I simply asked why riders take a line through corners that has a greater curvature than the road itself if they love corners so much. They are, in essence "straightening the curve", just not to the same degree.

[dangerous]

The article below

With only reading the 1st post Id like to say...WHAT A FUCKING LOAD A BLOODY BULLSHIT
1st the road rules say keep left for a reason
2nd if straight lining is done then the rider is going to fast (out of control)
3rd bloody lazy salfish riding habbit
4th the roads not a race track (go to the track if you want to use all the seal)
5th if done so as to avoid debri on bends... learn to ride.
6th... just plain dumb.

There is no reason to cross the center of the road at all in general road riding, head ons hapen due to crosing the center (explain otherwise)
This idea of a tecneck is very selfish, what about the rider behind... he cant pass a loopy rider using all the road the rider in front of the loopy has no idea were the loop is, what about the rider oncomming you people have heard of blind spots aye? they are REAL... fuck sakes lets just promote decent safe riding aye, and slow down.

What happens is this bad habbit becomes automatic and one day with out relising it you will cut a corner by habbit while thinking about the root you missed out on the night before and BANG

If you want to ride in a straight line buy a car

[Shadows]

Does this about sum it up? Did I miss anything?

Yes. As I said, the whole point.

Dangerous pretty much summed it up in the above post.

[Ixion]

What if there is no centre line? Most good roads don't have them.

[mstriumph]

then there's no reason to cross where the centre line WOULD be .... if there were one ..... which there isn't of course .....

:innocent:

[dangerous]

What if there is no centre line? Most good roads don't have them.

If you dont know were the center of the road is... you shouldnt have a licence, that sort of comment scares me.

As far as gravel or negitave camber goes a percentage of you guys will be fucked in road works then, best you stay home.

IMHO avoiding the center line (or center of road) is purely body position and riding skill. to compensate when you dont want to lean the bike over you use uper body weight when done corectly its like power steering, this is why I say to those that cross the line, they cant ride for shit.
If you take offence to that comment then I will assume the truth hurts, and all I can say is its not hard to admit your riding skills can be improved (mine can and always will) and its not hard to learn and a damn site less painful that being a 4x4 bonnet badge.

[NighthawkNZ]

What if there is no centre line? Most good roads don't have them.

http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/roadcode/about-driving/keeping-left.html

[Rashika]

IMHO
we have to cater for the lowest common denominator on our roads, that means all the dumb-arses you see every day. Telling them "yeah its ok to cross the centre line (centre imaginary line if not there) and straight line it IF you are experienced and know what u are doing" merely gives them the allowance to do it, cos of course we are all so experienced and skilled at riding (Yeah right... tui moment).

I can understand why LTNZ makes it illegal... its simple, and there can be no arguements as we ALL know the rules (or should do) so there can be no disagreements. And it caters for the idiots "oh but I'm a great rider, just missed seeing the car/bike/pedestrian/cyclist/dog/cow/sheep this time cos..."

why take the risk?
After all if you cant take the corners at the speed limit or recommended limit, then I suggest you dont have the skills to attempt straight lining it.

[MSTRS]

1st the road rules say keep left for a reason
2nd if straight lining is done then the rider is going to fast (out of control)
3rd bloody lazy salfish riding habbit


What happens is this bad habbit becomes automatic and one day with out relising it you will cut a corner by habbit while thinking about the root you missed out on the night before and BANG


Precisely. It's illegal, unecessary AND a bad habit to get into.

I think you will find that it is an offence (Failure to keep left).
I also kinda grew up with using it, but decided that although it made corners smoother, the result was either much higher speeds (remembering that it was almost the norm to travel at 130kph+) or simply lazy riding, and it was easy to get real complacent and fail to scan far enough ahead or get out of practice doing short, tight corners.
I don't do it now and haven't for years.

[MSTRS]

bikes are made to take corners.



Actually, cornering a bike takes effort and some skill, because bikes are made to go in a straight line. That's what makes cornering on a bike fun.

[swbarnett]

then there's no reason to cross where the centre line WOULD be .... if there were one ..... which there isn't of course .....

:innocent:
What about sealed roads that are only just wider than one lane?

[swbarnett]

Actually, cornering a bike takes effort and some skill, because bikes are made to go in a straight line. That's what makes cornering on a bike fun.
Well said. I was summing up the points of others.

[MSTRS]

What about sealed roads that are only just wider than one lane?

Stay in your half. In fact, on roads such as this, it is even more important to keep well to the left since, generally speaking, these roads are very windy and usually only well travelled by the local residents who become complacent since they seldom meet opposing traffic.

[moT]

Whats really fun is you hold the bike at 100kph close your eyes and have your pillion steer for you from the pillion seat its mean fun!!

[mstriumph]

What about sealed roads that are only just wider than one lane?

if it's not a one-way then the same rules have to apply --- surely it's obvious that, unless you have x ray vision, you CAN'T know whether something is coming at you head-on around that corner .... so you just have to always assume something IS and ride accordingly??

:( ye gods, it costs sooooo MUCH to get yer bike fixed after an off - why would ANYONE risk that when avoiding it just means keeping yer speed appropriate and yer ego in check around blind corners? :no:

honestly, reading back over some of these posts makes me think that some people hanging out here must either be obscenely wealthy or just uncaringly prolifigate ........

[MSTRS]

honestly, reading back over some of these posts makes me think that some people hanging out here must either be obscenely wealthy or just uncaringly prolifigate ........

And your point is...?:bleh:

[mstriumph]

*returns to corner, picks up knitting and SULKS...*

[swbarnett]

if it's not a one-way then the same rules have to apply --- surely it's obvious that, unless you have x ray vision, you CAN'T know whether something is coming at you head-on around that corner .... so you just have to always assume something IS and ride accordingly??
I have no argument with this. I don't believe that anyone advocating straight-lining would. One of the caveats is that you DON'T do it on a corner where there is even the merest possibility of it being called blind by anyone.


:( ye gods, it costs sooooo MUCH to get yer bike fixed after an off - why would ANYONE risk that when avoiding it just means keeping yer speed appropriate and yer ego in check around blind corners? :no:
See above, noone is advocating straight-lining around blind corners.


honestly, reading back over some of these posts makes me think that some people hanging out here must either be obscenely wealthy or just uncaringly prolifigate ........
I think you've got the wrong impression. See above.

[swbarnett]

Stay in your half. In fact, on roads such as this, it is even more important to keep well to the left since, generally speaking, these roads are very windy and usually only well travelled by the local residents who become complacent since they seldom meet opposing traffic.
Totally agree.

I'd go as far as to add that if the road is less than two lanes wide you should be further over because the oncoming car (or truck) certainly won't be completely in their half.

[swbarnett]

I'd like to get one thing straight. Straight-lining is a technique to be used extremely sparingly. For one thing there are very few corners where it can be done safely and for another the traffic volume today means that even these corners often have traffic preventing the manoeuvre.

I can't remember the last time I actually straight-lined a corner and I'm almost certain that it was in a car.

Straight-lining is certainly not something to be done lightly but, done properly, you remain well within acceptable safety limits.

Like an increasing number of things eradicating this technique (among others) is being looked on by some as the next step in safety improvement i.e. "Stamp this out and we'll all be a little bit safer". While this may be true, at what cost? Take this to it's logical conclusion and motorcycles themselves will be banned.

[mstriumph]

...................
Straight-lining is certainly not something to be done lightly but, done properly, you remain well within acceptable safety limits.

................

no offence intended
any seasoned rider can probably judge what risks can be taken and what should be avoided and when

i guess my main worry is that some newer and less-controlled riders on here will completely miss the first bit of your message and recall only the last bit ---- thus you will be quoted as having said "Straight-lining ... you remain well within acceptable safety limits"

i'm not comfortable with that
and, if you think about it, i don't think you would be either

- from some of the postings i get the impression that there are a fair few newer and less-experienced riders on KB ... we need to be aware of who is listening to some of the things we say here - and how they may misinterpret it to their detriment :mellow:?

sheesh - i think i just made a "think of the CHILDREN" post .........*runs off screaming .......*

[dangerous]

Straight-lining is certainly not something to be done lightly but, done properly, you remain well within acceptable safety limits.
Ohh get a grip man, it cant be done properly because it should not be done full stop, only a lazy bastard will do it... its as simple as that.

[NighthawkNZ]

Man is this thread still going...

[Oscar]

Man is this thread still going...



...in a straight line!



Bwahahahahahahah!

[trustme]

Ohh get a grip man, it cant be done properly because it should not be done full stop, only a lazy bastard will do it... its as simple as that.

Only a dumb bastard makes such a dumb statement

[scumdog]

Only a dumb bastard makes such a dumb statement

So perceptive for one so low in post count...:rolleyes:

[dangerous]

Only a dumb bastard makes such a dumb statement

Please explain what you mean... or I will have to asume you are one of these lazy un skilled riders that dosnt give a shit about the other road users, and if I am correct to asume you are a profesional driver... then you should know beter and bring a bad name to the rest of the trucking cominuty.

[Subike]

Dumb Bastards, Lazy readers, Stupid riders,
Name calling by the lot of you.
Go and Read the first post and open your fucking eyes!
This article was , yes about straight lining corners, but
IN POLICE TRAINING FOR PERSUIT OF OFFENDERSHere you all are arguing over the issues pertaining to this subject, yet the majority of the posters more than likely, never read the first post, used thier brains, then discovered, it was a police training tactic!
So what do we get?
Person A posts information, person B responds, persons C to H start the ball rolling. The first page if full! Next page we start the typical bouncing of comments off each other without thinking of the origional post!
now, who are the The Dumb Bastards, Lazy readers, Stupid riders? All that dont bother to read the FIRST post, thus assume that this thread is about advocating a skill for general biker use!
The arguments begin, tempers fly, insults are tossed around, and we get a thread full of crap!

The police have to catch offending vehicle in their job discription, so straight lining corners must become part of thier training. Simple!


Open you eyes people and read!!!

Then half the grief created in this thread would not have happened

[dangerous]

Dumb Bastards, Lazy readers, Stupid riders,
Name calling by the lot of you.
Go and Read the first post and open your fucking eyes!
This article was , yes about straight lining corners, but
IN POLICE TRAINING FOR PERSUIT OF OFFENDERSHere you all are arguing over the issues pertaining to this subject, yet the majority of the posters more than likely, never read the first post, used thier brains, then discovered, it was a police training tactic!
So what do we get?
Person A posts information, person B responds, persons C to H start the ball rolling. The first page if full! Next page we start the typical bouncing of comments off each other without thinking of the origional post!
now, who are the The Dumb Bastards, Lazy readers, Stupid riders? All that dont bother to read the FIRST post, thus assume that this thread is about advocating a skill for general biker use!
The arguments begin, tempers fly, insults are tossed around, and we get a thread full of crap!

The police have to catch offending vehicle in their job discription, so straight lining corners must become part of thier training. Simple!


Open you eyes people and read!!!

Then half the grief created in this thread would not have happened

CHILL OUT man, so the thread digressed, so what its what forums do, I hope my comments help just one rider if so the threads sucsessfull... and what do you want us all wraped up in cotton wool??? name calling so what i often call my self a dumb c@#t so what... spose you are all for the no smaking kids bullshit to?

OHhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... I get it your troling doing just what you acused others of :Punk:


PS: BTW while thread was aimed at the police (and we know they are the best drivers/riders around, why just yesterday a police car over turned a 4x4 in town while chasing a speeding moped) some people will think if its good pratice for the cops.. its good for me next minite everone is doing it and THAT... is what this thread is about.

[Subike]

I think that any new rider reading this thread would understand that the risks involved cutting corners have been well explained.
Any long term rider could also see from this thread that straight lining corners may not be a "safe" option, if they were to go by the reasonably high percentage of riders who have posted here that it is not "reasonably safe" to straightline corners.
Now the big trick is!
How do you get people not to ride in a way that is going to include "straight lining corners"
You can not stop a person making that choice!
But as most have done here, we can advise against it, give good reasons why it should not be done, give examples of what can result from doing it, even post pics or vids showing the aftermath of straight lining cornering.
In the end the result will be more information to those who bother to read the whole thread.
The best we can ever hope for is that somewhere on a New Zealand road, a rider from KB will remember reading this thread, and not cut a corner, thus by doing so, misses hitting that vehicle he did not see.
All of our opinions, for and against, have made for a good discuission that has kept this in our faces for this week at least.
Which is a good thing, that the start of the summer season, to be reminded to be carefull out there.
My opinion on the subject?
I love corners, so the white line I treat as a wall, even when I can see the way is clear.

na just adding to the wall of chaos D

[trustme]

Please explain what you mean... or I will have to asume you are one of these lazy un skilled riders that dosnt give a shit about the other road users, and if I am correct to asume you are a profesional driver... then you should know beter and bring a bad name to the rest of the trucking cominuty.

Yes I suppose I could be considered a professional driver, I quite regulrly operate large trucks & transporters , some with piloted overwidth loads, at times simply to get around a corner without mounting a curb or taking out lamp posts I have to go on the wrong side of the road, there have been numerous occasions when I sit wide to take a tight left & fuckwits in cars fireup the inside trying to shoot the gap, fortunately I have developed almost a sixth sense & know what the dickheads are up to so I have not taken anyuone out in years.
What I was getting at was that making broad sweeping comments like yours, makes no allowance for different circumstances or situations.
If we followed your logic nonone would speed because it is not necessary & dangerous, we would all be little LTSA clones
I straight line on occasions, if I am sure there is no traffic coming, bet you speed on occasions, if you chose not to straght line a corner,great it is your choice

[MSTRS]

... if you chose not to straght line a corner,great it is your choice

Of course it is a choice. A choice of whether to OBEY THE ROAD RULE OF KEEP LEFT.

[Blackbird]

Of course it is a choice. A choice of whether to OBEY THE ROAD RULE OF KEEP LEFT.

And of course no biker breaks the road rule of not exceeding 100 km/hr either. I think this thread has run its course as hypocrisy has taken over from intelligent discussion.

[MSTRS]

And of course no biker breaks the road rule of not exceeding 100 km/hr either. I think this thread has run its course as hypocrisy has taken over from intelligent discussion.

Isn't that always the way? Like them or not, road rules are supposed to be there to keep us safe (sic) but at least the keep left one has more logic than an 'arbitrary' speed limit.

[MIXONE]

I bet most of the hypocrites on this thread think nothing of lane splitting on the motorway.To me this is far more dangerous.

[swbarnett]

no offence intended
any seasoned rider can probably judge what risks can be taken and what should be avoided and when

i guess my main worry is that some newer and less-controlled riders on here will completely miss the first bit of your message and recall only the last bit ---- thus you will be quoted as having said "Straight-lining ... you remain well within acceptable safety limits"

i'm not comfortable with that
and, if you think about it, i don't think you would be either

- from some of the postings i get the impression that there are a fair few newer and less-experienced riders on KB ... we need to be aware of who is listening to some of the things we say here - and how they may misinterpret it to their detriment :mellow:?

sheesh - i think i just made a "think of the CHILDREN" post .........*runs off screaming .......*
I am never happy about being misquoted or misinterpreted and I agree with what you're saying. However, If we all worried all the time to the Nth degree about how what we say could be misread we'd never say anything.

[mstriumph]

I am never happy about being misquoted or misinterpreted and I agree with what you're saying. However, If we all worried all the time to the Nth degree about how what we say could be misread we'd never say anything. you are speaking to one who never even sat with her feet on the furniture until after the children had left home .... :confused: i'm probably beyond redemption :no:

[Mooch]

And of course no biker breaks the road rule of not exceeding 100 km/hr either. I think this thread has run its course as hypocrisy has taken over from intelligent discussion.


I think this is one of those threads where everyone agrees to disagree.
For me, taking motorcycle courses where a range riding techniques are taught has improved my riding over the last 20 years (I've got plenty more to learn btw). The course that had elements of straight lining was only a small part of the course on quite rural roads with NO centre line and where you could clearly though the corners. It’s not something that should be done on state HW1 or in suburbs / Cities unless of course you are a Buenos Aires Taxi driver.

For the allowing a 10/20 percent margins, I only use this on closed road events, this is where I need to improve my straight lining.

I think blackbird started off with something valid, I'm often tail end charley on rides and get to watch the lines that people in front take. I've seen leaser experienced riders start to go wide on corners because they have been too far left and I'd argue that this is perhaps more dangerous road position to be in some circumstances regardless of corner entry speed.

If the survival skills threads are only meant to target bigger riders then is probably best that we keep discussions like this off KB , however , if survival skills thread is for all riders then perhaps a disclaimer at the start for this type of riding technique is not suitable for beginners and should only be instructor taught rather than via text.

[scracha]

Nooo....please...don't end it here. We need the annual "cutting corners" thread and we MUST argue about it all summer.

How anyone thinks following a squiggly bit of empty road is safer that straightening it out is obviously a stupid kiwi. :finger:

[MSTRS]

Nooo....please...don't end it here. We need the annual "cutting corners" thread and we MUST argue about it all summer.

How anyone thinks following a squiggly bit of empty road is safer that straightening it out is obviously a stupid kiwi. :finger:

Ya wot? You, sir, are hereby sentenced to stay on the motorway.:2guns:

[Blackbird]

Nooo....please...don't end it here. We need the annual "cutting corners" thread and we MUST argue about it all summer.

How anyone thinks following a squiggly bit of empty road is safer that straightening it out is obviously a stupid kiwi. :finger:

Bloody Hell Steevie - wet days must bore the heck out you - I thought we'd killed this thread :shutup:

[scracha]

Bloody Hell Steevie - wet days must bore the heck out you - I thought we'd killed this thread :shutup:

Humungous black clouds all around :angry: The bike and car are washed. The garage is about 10th emptied and with all the $hit lying around I managed to build 3 semi decent computers yesterday. NOW I'm bored :innocent: This man deserves a DB.

Remember kids, while straightlining in the rain, you've got to weigh up the extra corner speed you gain vs the slipperyness of the white lines.

[dangerous]

while driving my truck loaded with race bikes headed to Greymouth in the w/e as I came around a right hander I was faced with a fuk wit on a yellow GSXR on MY BLOODY side of the road... he obviously thought straight lining was cool... all I can say is thank fuk I wasnt riding cos I would have apaired a shit load faster and he wouldent have had time to correct himself.

I wonder if straight lining is a habbit for this guy? and doing it on auto pilot, I would have been right pissed if this guys lack of riding ability was to have screwed my w/e up.

[MarkH]

while driving my truck loaded with race bikes headed to Greymouth in the w/e as I came around a right hander I was faced with a fuk wit on a yellow GSXR on MY BLOODY side of the road...

Cutting a blind corner? That really isn't very clever!

[scumdog]

Cutting a blind corner? That really isn't very clever!

I bet HE didn't see it as a blind corner....:doh:

[scracha]

all I can say is thank fuk I wasnt riding cos I would have apaired a shit load faster and he wouldent have had time to correct himself.


Always one bad apple spoils the straightlining mana

[pritch]

I think this thread has run its course as hypocrisy has taken over from intelligent discussion.

I was unaware that "intelligent discussion" was a requirement of a KB thread?
Are the moderators aware of this? :whistle:

[Blackbird]

I was unaware that "intelligent discussion" was a requirement of a KB thread?
Are the moderators aware of this? :whistle:

Hahahahaha - nice one Pritch! I think the intelligent discussion stopped at about mid-point:whistle:

[Shadows]

I wonder if straight lining is a habbit for this guy? and doing it on auto pilot, I would have been right pissed if this guys lack of riding ability was to have screwed my w/e up.

Depending on how remote the area was it needn't necessarily :whistle:

[discotex]

Always one bad apple spoils the straightlining mana

Think you'll find there's more than one bad apple out there.

[scumdog]

Did a bit of 'straight-lining' today - almost head-on into a roadside bank, don't think I'll try it again.

[NighthawkNZ]

Did a bit of 'straight-lining' today - almost head-on into a roadside bank, don't think I'll try it again.

Gave me a fracken fright I tells yah...

[Kickaha]

Did a bit of 'straight-lining' today - almost head-on into a roadside bank, don't think I'll try it again.

You should have bought a bike that goes around corners:msn-wink:

[scumdog]

You should have bought a bike that goes around corners:msn-wink:

T'weren't th' bike, t'were the rider....:doh:

[scracha]

T'weren't th' bike, t'were the rider....:doh:
Surely not the mighty scumdoggystyle admitting crossing the centre line?

[dangerous]

Surely not the mighty scumdoggystyle admitting crossing the centre line?

LOL... umm, you need to read between the lines with this one. :dodge:

[scumdog]

Surely not the mighty scumdoggystyle admitting crossing the centre line?

There wasn't a centreline - had there been one I would have been on the wrong side of it, yep, we can ALL screw up at times - sadly some don't survive the screw-up....and some don't learn from it.

[pritch]

sadly some don't survive the screw-up....and some don't learn from it.

I used to have a copy of the British Police Motorcycle Handbook (whatever it was called exactly) and it said that drivers who had recently been involved in an accident were statistically more likely to have a similar accident in the future than other road users.

The reason given for this is that they are all such good drivers they don't see any need to learn from their misadventures.

Nothing about the behaviour of New Zealand motorists leads me to expect anything different in this country.

So SD, maybe you could change that to "most don't learn from it".

[scracha]

There wasn't a centreline - had there been one I would have been on the wrong side of it, yep, we can ALL screw up at times - sadly some don't survive the screw-up....and some don't learn from it.

At least you're in one piece :Police: