NZ employers...

[judecatmad]

.....are cr@p at offering flexible working arrangements - cr@p, cr@p, cr@p - I'm talking about part-time and/or working from home (even if the technology is available - which it is at several companies I could do my job at).

And that's even when your job is listed as one of the 'in very high demand and difficult to recruit for' jobs.

Totally non-bike related, so apologies to those who may feel the need to get on their high horse about that, but just needed to get it out of my system.....

[Tank]

.....are cr@p at offering flexible working arrangements - cr@p, cr@p, cr@p - I'm talking about part-time and/or working from home (even if the technology is available - which it is at several companies I could do my job at).

And that's even when your job is listed as one of the 'in very high demand and difficult to recruit for' jobs.

Totally non-bike related, so apologies to those who may feel the need to get on their high horse about that, but just needed to get it out of my system.....

What a load of rubbish - We have some fantastic employers that allow people hugely flexible working conditions - You just haven't found them yet.

FWIW - I find NZ Employers far more flexible than the ones I worked for in the UK.

Its nothing to do with technology - its normally about how they want that role utilized.

[Pwalo]

Perhaps they just don't like you. Seriously it can take a while to find a job, especially if you've been out of the workplace for a while.

Don't take it personally, because I'm sure they don't.

[judecatmad]

What a load of rubbish - We have some fantastic employers that allow people hugely flexible working conditions - You just haven't found them yet.


Not a load of rubbish from where I'm sitting, thank you very much.

Doing the job I do, I can't just go to any old company and my skills are not transferrable to another role (nor can I afford to move out of my field and take a massive pay cut).

There's a huge amount of flexibility if you're already working for the right company, granted - but you try approaching a new company (because your current one is stuffing you around) and mention that you want hours other than 8.30-5 and that you might not want to work in the office 5 days a week - the door gets slammed in your face.

If you know of anyone offering a really decent salary for an office-based job, with no people management involved, AND flexible working arrangements, by all means PLEASE get in touch. Until then, don't tell me that I'm talking cr@p becasue you have no idea the shit I'm facing at the moment with my return from maternity leave imminent and me probably ending up putting my wee man in daycare for 12 hours a day because of the inflexibility of the companies I have available to me.

[Lissa]

I must be one lucky girl, I have flexible hours of work, so I can drop the kids off at school and pick them up, but I can also work late on the days I dont have the kids and make up hours. If I have to go to a school play or sports day I am given time to do that and can make up the hours. Stick with it Jude, I am sure the perfect job is waiting for you :hug:

[Patar]

Companies won't offer you great salaries and flexible working hours unless you've proved yourself and shown that you are an asset they need.
Just because you're in a 'hard to recruit' field, it doesn't mean that companies will throw money at the first person who walks through the door with the proper skills and wanting to work their own way.

As an undergraduate engineer I see this a lot as companies come in trying to recruit graduates, because while they have the skillset, they can also conform to regular working hours. Unlike summer students who aren't as favoured because they usually only hang around for 3 months before going back to uni.

[Tank]

Not a load of rubbish from where I'm sitting, thank you very much.

Doing the job I do, I can't just go to any old company and my skills are not transferrable to another role (nor can I afford to move out of my field and take a massive pay cut).

There's a huge amount of flexibility if you're already working for the right company, granted - but you try approaching a new company (because your current one is stuffing you around) and mention that you want hours other than 8.30-5 and that you might not want to work in the office 5 days a week - the door gets slammed in your face.

If you know of anyone offering a really decent salary for an office-based job, with no people management involved, AND flexible working arrangements, by all means PLEASE get in touch. Until then, don't tell me that I'm talking cr@p becasue you have no idea the shit I'm facing at the moment with my return from maternity leave imminent and me probably ending up putting my wee man in daycare for 12 hours a day because of the inflexibility of the companies I have available to me.

I'm sorry for your situation - I really am.

But Im also sick of people coming to NZ and saying how crap everything is here - like your "NZ Employers are Crap..." heading.

The truth looking at your post is that you have a limited skill set and non-transferable skills - yet you are wanting people to bend over backwards for you when they could get someone just as skilled working in the office. Again - I'm sorry - I don't believe its NZ employers - it may be someone with unrealistic demands.

I wish you the best of luck in finding something that suits.

[judecatmad]

Companies won't offer you great salaries and flexible working hours unless you've proved yourself and shown that you are an asset they need.
Just because you're in a 'hard to recruit' field, it doesn't mean that companies will throw money at the first person who walks through the door with the proper skills and wanting to work their own way.

As an undergraduate engineer I see this a lot as companies come in trying to recruit graduates, because while they have the skillset, they can also conform to regular working hours. Unlike summer students who aren't as favoured because they usually only hang around for 3 months before going back to uni.

I'm not some kid straight out of high school - I have 5 years' experience in my field, with almost 10 years' industry experience. I have a degree. I have worked for my current employer for more than 3 years. I have very good relationships with my customers.

It pisses me off that I see my colleagues being given flexible arrangements and my peers at other companies being given flexible arrangements. But because all of these people have flexible arrangements, the door is now closed to any further people wanting flexible options.

Or, as has been said before, maybe they just don't like me. It's very probable.

It's OK, I'm on the verge of a breakdown as it is with the stress of knowing I'll be leaving the house at 7am and not getting home til almost 6.30pm and will then have to do all the stuff that a mum needs to do with their baby before bedtime, then will have to do all the housework and the other cr@p that wives seem to get left with. And on top of that will have to still maintain my second job. But no matter, not anyone's problem but my own I guess.

All employers see are timesheets. They don't see the human element behind the timesheets and the effect that their mentality is having.

And yes, you could quite feasibly say it's not my employer's problem that I had a baby - this is very true but at this moment in time if anyone throws that at me I will personally hunt you down and make your lives a living hell. I already regret motherhood more than anyone could possibly imagine.

[imdying]

Your cat is cute :yes:

[Tank]

I know its a change and it has some uncertainty- but have you considered temping or the like?

Often you can get flexable hours and once you have been there a while often the chance to go 'perm' with the same hours?

Pity you are not in Auckland - I have some friends at agency's that may have been able to help.

[judecatmad]

when they could get someone just as skilled working in the office

But they can't - that's the thing.

There's a massive shortage in my field.

Oh what's the point? Sorry I started the damn thread. I only wanted to get it off my chest given that there's nobody I can talk to.

And if I'd stayed in the UK, yes, things would have been very different. I'd be single, wouldn't have kids and wouldn't be arsed about getting flexible hours. I'd also have family for support - which I don't here - and would have all my friends around me.

If I could go home I would but I can't. If I could change having a baby I would, but I can't. All I want is for my employer to look at a shorter working day with shorter breaks during the working day so that I'm still working the same hours (bar half an hour), with the option to work from home one day a week so that my son can go to a class he currently attends. What's so goddamn unreasonable about that?????

Forget it.

No more replies please - mods, please put this into PD.

[riffer]

Call me presumptuous but I'm pretty sure there's more to this than a bit of flexibility needed in the workplace.

It sounds like you do need someone to talk to Jude.

[Pwalo]

Call me presumptuous but I'm pretty sure there's more to this than a bit of flexibility needed in the workplace.

It sounds like you do need someone to talk to Jude.

He's probably right. Everything becomes a compromise when you have kids. Good luck.

[discodan]

Way to kick her while she is down guys.

She's right, you don't know what her situation is like regarding finding a decent employer so why shoot her down when all she wanted was some support.

I am currently in a pretty decent job and my employer is pretty good considering the situation I am in (no kids etc). But my workmates have kids and they can basically work whenever they want as long as they are doing thier job.

On the other hand, I have had experienced the frustration of sh*t employers so I totally understand why it can get depressing.

Give her a break.

[AllanB]

If your job is in so high demand then get one somewhere else that has the conditions you desire. Simple.

[avgas]

umm next time don't ask just do - if they fire you then you knew it wouldn't work anyway.

[Toaster]

I have some friends at agency's that may have been able to help.

Agencies huh Tank? I know the kind... laying around in bed all day earning tax free cash....:Pokey:

[brendonjw]

So what is the position you are looking for?

[Jez]

i totally agree with Jude ... except i wouldnt say ALL employers ...

I worked at Chch casino for 8 years as a supervisor and very good at my job, my rotational roster equated to working nights for 5 years straight with early weekdays off, ie Mon/Tues Tues/Wed ... when i appraoched them and said it was affecting my relationship at home with my wife and kids and asked for 1 month in 4 with dayshifts they knocked me back. I asked if i could swap with another supervisor on dayshifts who had agreed to it, and again i was knocked back. So i asked a 3rd time and got the same reply which i answered with my resignation.

As far as im concerned, if the employer doesnt care about the employee, then why should the employee care for the employer?

there are some good ones out there, finding them is the hard part ;)

[iangee]

I think theres some new rules regarding flexi time, didn't have time to read it fully but heres the link...

http://www.dol.govt.nz/worklife/flexible/act.asp

[Gremlin]

Don't know the situation, or what work you are in, but there are good employers.

Me, effectively, my time is my own, work when I need to, and can do quite a bit from home...

Of course, this translates often in 12+ hour days, working any hours of the day/night... but the point is, its flexible.

[awayatc]

Not a load of rubbish from where I'm sitting, thank you very much.

Until then, don't tell me that I'm talking cr@p becasue you have no idea the shit I'm facing at the moment


You sure it is the "NZ employers".......

:scooter:

[bull]

You give the employer a list of demands and they will say no!, you give them a list of requests and negotiate with them then they are likely to say yes to some of your request's.

I feel your pain Judecatmad and am in a psoition myself where im weighing up the job options compared to the child care etc, its quite the conumdrum at the moment and id say alot of families are in the same boat right now.

The best part for you is that you have a skillset that is in demand so the likelihood of you finding a employer that suits is better than say joe bloggs whom has basic skills, so head up and move on to the next employer and show them your list of job flexi requests.

[slowpoke]

Hmmm, sounds like there is more than just the problem related to your employer. For what it's worth it sounds like you are pretty close to the edge.

So what is the way forward? That's the important thing. While you are hanging on by your fingernails you've got to figure out a way out of the situation.

What's the biggest problem here? Losing your job? Losing your partner? Putting your son into daycare? Losing your mind?

It's all very well to say the situation sucks but if the situation is untenable you need to figure out what the biggest problem is and start working out the best way forward. Your employer may be inflexible (which they are entitiled to be, they have their own set of problems to deal with) but that just rules out one option, there are bound to be others.

You have got to prioritise, and first priority is your health, that means mental health too, 'cos the situation is only compounded if you fall in a heap.

[firefighter]

excuse me if i'm mistaken, but are you whining because you are expected to actually go to work to do your work.....just because it's possible to do it from home? And that your approaching new companies saying you want to work at home at the times you like?......ummmmm, I think by just quoting you iv'e made my point.......LOL

If I read it wrong, forget my post, if I read it right, well, ask yourself why the doors getting closed, because i'd slam the bloody thing! and employ someone who wants to come to work, and work the proper office hours I had advertised....

Just my 3c

[judecatmad]

excuse me if i'm mistaken, but are you whining because you are expected to actually go to work to do your work.....just because it's possible to do it from home? And that your approaching new companies saying you want to work at home at the times you like?......ummmmm, I think by just quoting you iv'e made my point.......LOL

If I read it wrong, forget my post, if I read it right, well, ask yourself why the doors getting closed, because i'd slam the bloody thing! and employ someone who wants to come to work, and work the proper office hours I had advertised....

Just my 3c

You're excused.

No, I'm not 'whining' because I'm expected to go into work to do my work. I actually don't WANT to work from home full time just because I can. I actually enjoy my time with my colleagues and am really looking forward to going back into the office for some social contact (staying at home all the time is driving me nuts, if you couldn't tell....).

What I'm 'whining' about is that I'm asking for a later start than 8.30 (by half an hour) and an earlier finish than 5 (by an hour), and in return I'm perpared to mess my scheduled breaks around in order to achieve this so that I am, bar half an hour, working my full-time contracted hours. I'm even prepared to make up the extra time in the evening so that my company isn't disadvantaged.

What I'm also 'whining' about is that I'm asking for me to be able to work from home just one day a week so that my son can continue with a music class he's been going to since he was a tiny baby. In return for me staying at home that day, I would do more hours than if I were in the office but still only get paid for my normal hours.

What I'm further 'whining' about is that I have colleagues who have teenage children who have retained their flexible hours even though they no longer need them, and I have colleagues who got flexible hours several years ago for their babies and who have been able to retain these. I also have colleagues who have no children at all who have flexible working hours. I have proved while I've been doing part-time from home that my productivity is much higher than when I'm in the office so it's not that I'm a slacker.

So what I'm 'whining' about is the apparent 2-tier system and that by not allowing me similar flexibility so that my wee man isn't in care 12 hours a day, my mental health is going down the drain with the stress of it all.

And no, my employer is under no obligation, I get that.

And to the person who said I should go with a list of requests not demands - I've tried that approach. Softly,softly was my first approach (even though it is against my nature - I'm not a political animal most of the time).

And to the person who mentioned the new legislation - section 6AA it's called - it's a piece of cr@p as far as I can see. Done a lot of research into it and if you apply under this section, you can only apply once every 12 months. Your employer has 3 months to get back to you (what do you do in the meantime??). And if they decline your request for 'business reasons', you have no right of appeal and then cannot reapply for a whole year.

I am actually feeling a lot better today - not that you can tell from this post, LOL!

Baby has taken to screaming as a pastime, I've not slept properly for around 17 months (pregnancy and then broken nights with baby), I'm at home with no friends and no family to turn to.....I'm going stark-raving bonkers. I do NEED to get back to work but I also need to know that I am going to be able to spend some awake time with my baby during the week (dropping him off at 7am and picking him up at 6pm - he may as well live there). The only way I can have that happy medium is by my employer (or a new employer) allowing me shifted start/finish times....is it really such a big ask???

[alanzs]

Baby has taken to screaming as a pastime, I've not slept properly for around 17 months (pregnancy and then broken nights with baby), I'm at home with no friends and no family to turn to.....I'm going stark-raving bonkers.

Hang in there. :love:

[slowpoke]

I understand you are upset but you are majorly upset over a music class? For a small child?

You are perfectly entitled to vent on here (we don't have to read it) but if I said I wanted to adjust my work roster to suit a child's music class I would be laughed out of the office.

[riffer]

Baby has taken to screaming as a pastime, I've not slept properly for around 17 months (pregnancy and then broken nights with baby), I'm at home with no friends and no family to turn to.....I'm going stark-raving bonkers.

Hi Jude,

AK Osteopaths have been a great help with our little ones:

http://www.osnz.org/go/index.php/directory/clinic/ak_osteopaths/

Donald is a rare breed - an osteopath who's also is very skilled with working with food allergies. We've had to put up with similar stuff and this guy has been a miracle worker.

He may have an answer to the troubles your little guy is going through.

Hang in there. It DOES get easier. After four of them I feel mildly qualified to comment.

[imdying]

In my admittedly very limited experience, it appears to me that babies very much reflect the head space of the mother... if you're stressed and can't relax, the wee mite will just keep on screaming. Relaxed mother, relaxed baby :yes:

Normally I wouldn't offer such a meagre nugget of information, given I don't have any children... but even I observe things like this and process them, and it sounds from your posts that their might be a little bit of stress in your life, so maybe useful and relevant?

/edit: And your cat is very cute :yes:

[riffer]

Yes and no dude.

Mothers also reflect the head space of the baby.

And the lack of a support group takes its toll too.

[Number One]

Short attention span tonight and I'm cooking steak and mushrooms so I'll be brief...

PUBLIC SERVICE - not very sexy but family friendly they are! I have an effing awesome employer who have been very very supportive as we have had some ups and downs ever since I started working there and though I worked my arse off and did a good job of proving myself they really have bent over backwards to keep me happy and for me that meant much better work life balance. I now do four day weeks (for the same money) and have the option to work from home regularly which comes in especially handy when the wee monster is sick and curled up on the couch asleep or watching Bob the builder...I just fit my online time around his sleeps and 'leave me alone' moments.

My last employer very large 'private sector' employer could've easily allowed it but didn't - they were ARSEHOLES TO WORK FOR!!! Aside from their maternity policy and ex gratia payment they were NOT family friendly at all.

[jrandom]

I suspect that anyone in their right mind knows that a mother with a baby 'working from home' will be about the least productive individual imaginable. No wonder they don't want to pay for it.

Not meaning to give you a hard time, judecatmad, just saying it like it is. Perhaps you could look into negotiating subsidised childcare funding as a part of your remuneration package?

A bit of time around adults with a professional looking after bubs should do wonders for your headspace, too. Humans just aren't made, physically or mentally, to look after babies on their own, and Western society with its acceptance and prevalence of single-mother situations completely fails to recognise that fact.

[jrandom]

My last employer very large 'private sector' employer could've easily allowed it but didn't - they were ARSEHOLES TO WORK FOR!!! Aside from their maternity policy and ex gratia payment...

Aside from their maternity policy and ex gratia payment, eh?

:laugh:

You seem to think that this privately-owned corporation should contract with you to provide services to it, and then happily take a hit to its own profitability if you subsequently decide to breed and reduce your working availability.

Are you a shareholder of that company?

No?

Then what on earth do you expect from it beyond fair payment for services you are able to render? If you compromise your own ability to work, why should they give you charity?

You appear to be confusing for-profit companies with WINZ.

I'll help y'out. For free money once you get knocked up, click this link (http://www.winz.govt.nz/). This link (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-me-jobs/index.htm) is only useful if you can offer equivalent value in return for the money.

:niceone:

Public-sector organisations under a socialist government are, of course, a different matter entirely. And, yes indeed, I'd encourage any women planning on breeding to get a job in one of Auntie Helen's outfits.

Although it's probably more a matter of inefficiency rather than political philosophy; if one wants to be paid a respectable salary for very little work, Gubmint departments anywhere in the world are probably a great bet.

[Str8 Jacket]

Welcome to reality.

Stop being a tosser Mr Random......

[R1madness]

What I'm 'whining' about is that I'm asking for a later start than 8.30 (by half an hour) and an earlier finish than 5 (by an hour), and in return I'm perpared to mess my scheduled breaks around in order to achieve this so that I am, bar half an hour, working my full-time contracted hours. I'm even prepared to make up the extra time in the evening so that my company isn't disadvantaged.


It is against the law for employers to allow people to miss or give up their rights to their scheduled breaks. We can be prosecuted by the labour department for that.
You are entitled to a break every 2.5 hours which can be stretched to every 3 hours by mutual agreement.
Flexi time is an option that i take with my staff.

Not ALL NZ employers are crap.

[Robert Taylor]

I'm sorry for your situation - I really am.

But Im also sick of people coming to NZ and saying how crap everything is here - like your "NZ Employers are Crap..." heading.

The truth looking at your post is that you have a limited skill set and non-transferable skills - yet you are wanting people to bend over backwards for you when they could get someone just as skilled working in the office. Again - I'm sorry - I don't believe its NZ employers - it may be someone with unrealistic demands.

I wish you the best of luck in finding something that suits.

And there are plenty of NZ employers who would like more flexible hours for themselves and some time off even.... But I agree there are lots of wonderful employers out there as well as the flip side of the coin. The same goes for employees, human nature.

[Robert Taylor]

Aside from their maternity policy and ex gratia payment, eh?

:laugh:

You seem to think that this privately-owned corporation should contract with you to provide services to it, and then happily take a hit to its own profitability if you subsequently decide to breed and reduce your working availability.

Are you a shareholder of that company?

No?

Then what on earth do you expect from it beyond fair payment for services you are able to render? If you compromise your own ability to work, why should they give you charity?

You appear to be confusing for-profit companies with WINZ.

I'll help y'out. For free money once you get knocked up, click this link (http://www.winz.govt.nz/). This link (http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-me-jobs/index.htm) is only useful if you can offer equivalent value in return for the money.

:niceone:

Public-sector organisations under a socialist government are, of course, a different matter entirely. And, yes indeed, I'd encourage any women planning on breeding to get a job in one of Auntie Helen's outfits.

Although it's probably more a matter of inefficiency rather than political philosophy; if one wants to be paid a respectable salary for very little work, Gubmint departments anywhere in the world are probably a great bet.

You got that right in one. Lets take it a stage further when we consider the example of our very well remunerated All Blacks ( not your average employees ) They should only be paid a small retainer and the rest should be performance related. That alone would fill in a few of the troughs given their roller coaster form over the last couple of years.

[jrandom]

Stop being a tosser Mr Random......

Not being a tosser. Some of us just tend to see the situation from the other side, is all.

Why don't you tell me why a company trying to make a profit on the investments put into it should be employing people who don't return what it considers value for money?

How any company spends its money is that company's directors' decision to make. And if they start handing it over to women with babies when that isn't the best way for them to do business, the shareholders would be right to give them the boot.

Life's hard, and any single parent has my sympathy.

But any parent who takes out their frustrations on other people who are just trying to employ workers who will help their business rather than be a drag on the operation is being a little bit pathetic.

If having a baby will stop you from being able to support yourself, then use contraception. It's not that complicated. If an accident occurs, abortion and adoption are both easily arranged in New Zealand. And if you refuse to use those options, don't whinge about the load you've chosen to take upon yourself.

I've supported two kids and their sick mother for years on a single income. It was fucking hard, but I never expected anyone to treat me differently because I was in a tougher situation than the footloose and fancy free single guys competing with me for work.

Funnily enough, the trick to dealing with that situation was always to just HTFU, be better than the competition, and offer people value they were willing to pay for.

I commend the same attitude to you.

:niceone:

[Number One]

You seem to think that this privately-owned corporation should contract with you to provide services to it, and then happily take a hit to its own profitability if you subsequently decide to breed and reduce your working availability.

God you are presumptious :rolleyes: I seem to think..how the fuck would you know what I think? You read a bunch of statements without having any awareness of the context then draw your own 'very clever' conclusions then try to get people into an online 'battle'

...I've said it before and I'll say it again..I really can't be arsed. My response was to Judecatmad NOT Jrandom.

BTW - HEAPS of employers offer a maternity policy and ex gratia payment. My MALE friend who is going to take time off when his wife has a baby (and then stays at home to raise the child) is going to get one when he returns...private sector employee too and NO he ain't a shareholder either :bleh:

You don't know me AND I don't actually live to please you with my comments, opinions or attitudes ...that might shock you...as I see you 'seem' to fancy yourself as KB's moral compass...but well, as I remember you saying to someone else relatively recently...you just keep making the world a better place to live in sweetheart :rolleyes:

[jrandom]

God... how the fuck... 'very clever' conclusions... I really can't be arsed... You don't know me AND I don't actually live to please you...

Heh! That skin of yours must be pretty baggy if I can fit under it.

;)

Anyway, all 'waaaaa (tm)' aside, I take it that you have no rebuttal to offer to my fundamental point that you can't expect to be paid for value you don't provide?

[MadDuck]

..... you can't expect to be paid for value you don't provide?

Pity WINZ dont have the same attitude....

[jrandom]

Pity WINZ dont have the same attitude....

Well, it wouldn't be too hard to introduce.

National's "work or study for the DPB once your kids are all over 6" policy announced a while back struck me as a sensible and positive step.

My ex-wife (who I mentioned earlier) is, now that I'm out of her day-to-day picture, finally getting her shit together and studying full-time. It's doing her a world of good.

A bit of 'official encouragement' along the same lines would probably help a lot of women out of negative ruts in their lives.

A crackdown on the utterly ridiculous ailments that 'sickness beneficiaries' use to escape the supervision of being on a true unemployment benefit wouldn't hurt either, but, of course, National would never have the gumption to go to an election with a policy like that.

I suppose we could always just vote for Rodders, cry havoc, and let slip the dogs of rampant capitalism...

[Number One]

Ever heard of institutional knowledge? Ever seen the bill for how much it actually costs companies to loose staff and then have to replace them and train them up again...(I'm in HR so I do know)...it is well worth working to attract your pregnant females back to work after they drop their loads - especially valued employees and even more so if they are in management positions.


You wanna know what I'm really thinking? I see absolutely no point in 'debating' with you AND I find it sad how you seem to need to make your 'fundamental points' by highlighting the seemingly flawed logic in others thinking all the time...and you always have to do it in such a turgid fashion ...have a beer and lighten up already. :sunny:

As for being under my skin :lol: Now THAT is very very presumptious indeed :lol:

[jrandom]

Ever heard of institutional knowledge? Ever seen the bill for how much it actually costs companies to loose staff and then have to replace them and train them up again...

Yes, I surely have. And all hiring and firing decisions must naturally be made keeping such things in mind. But it doesn't sound to me like any realistic commercial evaluation's been going on here...


(I'm in HR so I do know)...

Ahhhh, you're an HR Lady.

That explains a lot.

Ever had a real job?


As for being under my skin...

The two paragraphs at the end of your post, there, which have nothing to do with the subject at hand and everything to do with you being defensive toward me, indicate that you might be a leeeeetle bothered.

But it's OK. You're a girl. One expects such things. You're allowed. Hormones, smaller brain, etc. Let us know if you need the ol' smelling salts.

:hug:

[judecatmad]

I suspect that anyone in their right mind knows that a mother with a baby 'working from home' will be about the least productive individual imaginable. No wonder they don't want to pay for it.

Not meaning to give you a hard time, judecatmad, just saying it like it is. Perhaps you could look into negotiating subsidised childcare funding as a part of your remuneration package?

A bit of time around adults with a professional looking after bubs should do wonders for your headspace, too. Humans just aren't made, physically or mentally, to look after babies on their own, and Western society with its acceptance and prevalence of single-mother situations completely fails to recognise that fact.

I'm not going to give you too much of my time, having read the rest of your posts. You're not worth the bite.

But where in my rant did I ever say that I'd be intending to work at home with bubs at home too? He'd be going into daycare after his class and the time I'd save in commuting that day would mean that my employer would get a whole lot more out of me than if I had to traipse into the office. Of course, he can always stop his music class and miss out altogether. What I'm trying to do is keep him happy whilst at the same time offering the best value to my employer on that day, if they'll allow flexibility.

And as for me expecting my employer to give me special treatment because I've thought fit to breed - I'm not asking for anything that hasn't been given to several of my colleagues. I'm also not asking to work for less hours than I'm contracted - just asking for a bit of creative thinking around my start and finish times - but then you probably got on your high horse way before you got to that bit so you're forgiven for your little tangent.

And my working from home productivity has been more than proven in the last few months when I've been working part-time from home, even WITH baby around.

And as for the person who has said my employer can't offer reduced breaks - I'm not asking for reduced breaks, just a bit of creative reorganisation (and this rearrangement of the day is possible as it's been done for someone I know at another company)

[jrandom]

I'm not going to give you too much of my time, having read the rest of your posts. You're not worth the bite.

Why, folks, do they always feel the need to point out that they're not biting?

Why not just... not bite?

:blink:

Anyhoo.


I'm not asking for anything that hasn't been given to several of my colleagues. I'm also not asking to work for less hours than I'm contracted - just asking for a bit of creative thinking around my start and finish times...

Good shit, and good luck with that.

:niceone:


... my working from home productivity has been more than proven in the last few months when I've been working part-time from home, even WITH baby around.

Well, if your profession is in as much demand as you state, I'm sure another employer will be along shortly to make you a better offer.

[imdying]

Perhaps you could look into negotiating subsidised childcare funding as a part of your remuneration package?That could be a cunning plan?

[alanzs]

I want the world to revolve around me as well. :laugh:

[Number One]

All hiring and firing decisions must naturally be made keeping such things in mind. But it doesn't sound to me like any realistic commercial evaluation's been going on here...

Well if the mighty jrandom thinks that then it must be true! :msn-wink:


Ahhhh, you're an HR Lady. That explains a lot.


You are in IT aren't you...THAT explains a lot too :laugh:
FTR I'm not defensive towards you I just can't stand your self righteous know-it-all attitude which gets directed at just about EVERYTHING that comes up on KB...do you get tired being an authority on all subjects btw?


I'm not going to give you too much of my time, having read the rest of your posts. You're not worth the bite.

:niceone: Not surprisingly it's all those of the non child bearing sex who have the biggest problem with this whole notion :rolleyes: ...when the time comes that the boys can grow and carry the babies (wouldn't that be effing fantastic) then we should be sure to ensure that all the same logic and rules apply that they are suggesting...wonder if the tune would change then? :rolleyes:

[jrandom]

do you get tired being an authority on all subjects btw?

Not really. I find it works well for me. And do bear in mind that I'm always ready to be proved wrong - sometimes someone with a bit of mental fortitude comes along with a better idea, and I learn from them.

Of course, you also get hysterical women who can't handle the jandal after making ill-considered remarks and getting slapped down, but that's OK too. Girls will always be girls.

I understand that my approach in this thread has annoyed you, but that doesn't change the fact that my points were valid, does it?

Top tip: If you want to publicly disagree with me and get some traction, you need to explain why my points aren't valid, rather than indulging in paragraph after paragraph of (kinda cute) ranting about how my arrogance irritates you...


when the time comes that the boys can grow and carry the babies (wouldn't that be effing fantastic) then we should be sure to ensure that all the same logic and rules apply...

The same logic and rules have always applied in these situations. And I have the utmost sympathy for any mother out there without a man to look after her.

Any society that tacitly encourages the idea of women bearing, raising and supporting children on their own is far from ideal, and expecting private corporations to bend over backwards to accommodate the drawbacks of that situation is a cock-eyed band-aid approach to the problem.

[Ocean1]

The same logic and rules have always applied in these situations.

Quite a while certainly.

But there was a time when ladies behaved differently.

As did gentlemen.

[Her_C4]

Quite a while certainly.

But there was a time when ladies behaved differently.

As did gentlemen.

That is because there WAS a time when there were real ladies

and gentlemen.

[Ocean1]

That is because there WAS a time.

Hush child, they'll be asking about the pixies next.

[Ixion]

You are in IT aren't you...THAT explains a lot too :laugh:
FTR I'm not defensive towards you I just can't stand your self righteous know-it-all attitude which gets directed at just about EVERYTHING that comes up on KB...do you get tired being an authority on all subjects btw?


Mr Random does not know it all, nor is he an authority on all subjects. There would not be room on KB for two of us.

As regards the OP, my experience (which is quite wide) is that few NZ employers would be *too* difficult about a half hour flex on starting and finishing hours (unless the role is one that other people are dependant on - eg the dude that unlocks the doors in the morning).

The day off to work at home is probably the sticking point. "Work from home" has not been a great success outside the woofly lah-ti-dah 'nobody ever really knows if they do anything anyway' areas such as marketing and HR. :devil2: . "work from home" when a baby is involved , IME, is a total washout. It's not so much the quantity or quality of work (objectively, that is fairly easy to amange), it's the effcet on other staff who, fairly or unfairly, perceive a collegue being given preferential treatment (For that matter, I wouldn't mind working from home one day a week myself).

Surely the infant does not spend a whole day being musiced ? Is the whole company 9 to 5 ? Could make-up time on the weekend be a possibility?

It must also be said that in such matters NZ employers are actually pretty good. Certainly by comparison with the rest of the world (and that comes from a union man). In fact the ones LEAST willing to try to accomodate such requests are almost always the local subsidairies of multi-nationals.





i

[jrandom]

... there was a time when ladies behaved differently.

As did gentlemen.

Most gentlemen, in time, learn to distinguish between ladies and, well... another sort of woman.

(Which other sort has its uses, to be sure, to be sure.)

[Ocean1]

Most gentlemen, in time, learn to distinguish between ladies and, well... another sort of woman.

(Which other sort has its uses, to be sure, to be sure.)

Yes. Most spend their life assessing exactly that difference, true.

A true gentleman, however, makes no such public distinction.

[jrandom]

A true gentleman, however, makes no such public distinction.

Which point is probably a red herring; more useful perhaps to ponder whether a female who would claim equality and speak against men in public should expect a softer rebuttal than a man would receive for the same words.

The weaker sex cannot expect both a right to irrational presumptuousness and a right to special consideration. The abandonment of one is what earns the other.

:sherlock:

[awayatc]

Eventhough this distinction between prepay and contract is substantial .....

mates rates vs free minutes for example....

:scooter:

[awayatc]

My father used to tell me .....


"Son"......."Watch out what you teach your wife ........."

"later on It wil be much harder to teach em how to shut up".....

[slowpoke]

Not surprisingly it's all those of the non child bearing sex who have the biggest problem with this whole notion :rolleyes: ...when the time comes that the boys can grow and carry the babies (wouldn't that be effing fantastic) then we should be sure to ensure that all the same logic and rules apply that they are suggesting...wonder if the tune would change then? :rolleyes:

Aaaaah, the old "you can't have children you'll never understand" philosophy

What the hell has gender got to do with it? This could be a mother or father who was wanting this dispensation and the same responses would apply. I honestly can't believe that you've played this card actually, I reckon a father would be given much shorter shrift than a mother with this request, so women are actually getting favourable treatment.

Here's another philosophy for you: we can't always have what we want. It's not very fair, it's not very pleasant but that 's just life.

[Ocean1]

Which point is probably a red herring; more useful perhaps to ponder whether a female who would claim equality and speak against men in public should expect a softer rebuttal than a man would receive for the same words.

Useful to who? What she expects wouldn't have much influence on the ideal gent's behaviour. As succinct a description of civilised man as any I've heard.


The weaker sex cannot expect both a right to irrational presumptuousness and a right to special consideration. The abandonment of one is what earns the other.

:sherlock:

They can from me. Less a comment on my ideals, perhaps, than the way I was dragged up. Still, if there's credt to be had I'll take it. :cool:

[jrandom]

They can from me. Less a comment on my ideals, perhaps, than the way I was dragged up.

Have you considered that the implicit distinction you thus draw between the sexes could be construed as far more of an insult than any acid-tongued conversational slapdown?

Then again, perhaps the ideals of feminism were indeed misplaced. Certainly, your average Twenty-First Century Woman seems to have lost sight of them. Perhaps the return to more genteel days which you advocate wouldn't be a bad thing overall.

SjxY9rZwNGU

[Her_C4]

.....are cr@p at offering flexible working arrangements - cr@p, cr@p, cr@p -

Good God/ess REALLY? Truely? I offer flexible working hours where I can to both men and women - in return for ... well return for my money really, including committment, loyalty and timely / appropriate outputs.


Its nothing to do with technology - its normally about how they want that role utilized.

Good answer - there are some roles that I would not provide that level of flexibility for. It has more to do with the role than the person. Many jobs simply cannot be effectively done from home, regardless of the technology available.



Doing the job I do, I can't just go to any old company and my skills are not transferrable to another role (nor can I afford to move out of my field and take a massive pay cut).

Soooo I know this has been asked before - and without having a hissy fit tell us what you DO - that can be done at home? You have come on KB and denounced all NZ employers across the board without giving the full story.


It sounds like you do need someone to talk to Jude. Good post. The original post appears to be more of need to yell, scream, shout at anyone - - and everyone. I am not sure you have gone about it the right way if genuine help is what you are after?


You give the employer a list of demands and they will say no!, you give them a list of requests and negotiate with them then they are likely to say yes to some of your request's.

Absolutely right. It is a negotiated process, and often the employer (who has offered and is paying for a full time permanent position) is put in a position where they are being asked to accept less than either asked or paid for - and then get dumped on for it.


Scheduled breaks

Umm I know that both myself and my employees are entitled to scheduled breaks, but because of the nature of the work and the timing it is often not an option... I often try and provide some flexibility in return, but if employees are going to hang their hats on their 'rights' every five minutes I am not going to go out of my way to agree to flexibility. In fact I believe I probably hold as close to the contract as they do.


I suspect that anyone in their right mind knows that a mother with a baby 'working from home' will be about the least productive individual imaginable. No wonder they don't want to pay for it.

Actually, as much as it pains me, this is indeed a reality. Being a mother myself and trying to work from home years ago, the pull on your time and focus is immense. Please don't try and tell me that the work comes first because it doesn't (and shouldn't). When you are at home children / family should always come first.


Aaaaah, the old "you can't have children you'll never understand" philosophy

What the hell has gender got to do with it? This could be a mother or father who was wanting this dispensation and the same responses would apply. I honestly can't believe that you've played this card actually, I reckon a father would be given much shorter shrift than a mother with this request, so women are actually getting favourable treatment.

Here's another philosophy for you: we can't always have what we want. It's not very fair, it's not very pleasant but that 's just life.

Well in my opinion, gender has NOTHING to do with it. I currently have a male employee who takes off one day a week to be with his baby girl. He gives me everything he can (and more.... I am a hard task master) on the other four and gets home too late to spend any quality time. I can empathise as my children had no father around (his choice) and suffered for it.

And no - we can't always get what we want can we... sad but true. However I strongly believe that it shouldn't stop us trying.

Either find a new employer or find out what assurances or conditions that your employer wants from you before they will agree to your conditions. I don't know the other half of the story (and there always IS one), but if you are in such a specialised field and your skills are in such demand, then go contracting and work whatever hours and for whatever pay you choose.

Hope you manage to get some rest and sleep shortly - it all helps the thinking processes:mellow: Sorry, but my babystitting skills are rusty or I would offer to help out for a night or two :eek:

[Ocean1]

Have you considered...

If there’s a valid distinction to be made it’s between those who both have a working understanding of how they can best address the world and the will to do so, and those who do not.

Given my earlier reticence in discussing those not so blessed you may take what you will from the fact that, while this might be the point at which one might normally be expected to comment on the ideals of feminism, I haven’t.

[Oakie]

Ahhhh, you're an HR Lady.

That explains a lot.

Ever had a real job?


'ere! I'm in HR too and I can assure you it's a real job.

[cs363]

Content edited to save space on KB! :) Look back a few posts to see original


Agreed 100% - Good well considered post! :2thumbsup

[Number One]

Aaaaah, the old "you can't have children you'll never understand" philosophy.

First of all - good bite - here fishy fishy fishy!!!! ;)
On the note of the actual point I was trying to make behind my wee shit stir (which was clearly just too subtle)..you will never concince me (or probably any mother for that matter) that the physical and emotional demands of 'pregnancy and early motherhood' are balanced and shared across the sexes equally. SO on that point gender has everything to do with it.

Note the difference between a new mother and a new father. Yes dads are a bit tired from baby waking in the night and possibly having to support their lady more so than usual but the physical and emotional exhaustion that the mother goes through during preganancy, labour and that first couple of years is NOT minor...dads really do get off light on this one - no really THEY DO.

Productive working mothers are supported working mothers. The OP made it clear too that she is not asking for something that others are not getting.

I do agree that the ability to work and be productive from home is relevant to the role AND in some cases the person AND the technology available. It isn't an option for some and that is just reality.


The original post appears to be more of need to yell, scream, shout at anyone - - and everyone. I am not sure you have gone about it the right way if genuine help is what you are after?

.....without having a hissy fit tell us what you DO - that can be done at home?

As always KB comes to the OP with sarcasm, name calling and put downs :clap: Such a great place this is.

I too read the first post as a scream and a yell...and I saw it as a vent and a blow off and a 'shit this is tough and I am finding things hard'. I clearly saw it required a little compassion and not the typical pick over the bones of the argument and play the I'm right and your wrong and I'm cleverer than everyone else on here responses that are so typical to this place at times. Genuine help from KB seems an oxymoron to me. There are some absolute gems on here but unfortunately they are leaving the place in droves or are well outweighed by all the 'others'.

The above comments are not aimed at any one poster specifically...so don't have a hissy fit ok? :lol:

[Number One]

I understand that my approach in this thread has annoyed you, but that doesn't change the fact that my points were valid, does it?

Actually it's your general approach that annoys me...much as mine annoys you. :clap:


If you want to publicly disagree with me and get some traction

Actually I can disagree with you in whatever manner I like. I don't have the energy to bother trying to debate things out properly with you...what's the point afterall?

I have an opinion formed and based on my own experiences of the world and that differs from yours - SO? I also can't be arsed working to word my points perfectly just to 'win' in a disagreement with someone who actually has no bearing on my life and whoms opinion I don't really value to begin with. This is just an online forum I actually do my living in the real world.

[jrandom]

Actually it's your general approach that annoys me...

So you do, in fact, accept that I'm right?

Well then, you're welcome to be as annoyed as you like.


I don't have the energy to bother trying to debate things out properly...

I noticed!

Anyhoo. Point remains: You gotta be worth what an employer pays you, and distracted, hormonal, only-partially-available breeding females are at the bottom of the ladder when it comes to productivity.


good bite - here fishy fishy fishy!!!!

Refusing to back your own words is a coward's trick.

Do you actually mean anything you write in these discussions?


This is just an online forum I actually do my living in the real world.

O RLY?

:sherlock:

[Mom]

...distracted, hormonal, only-partially-available breeding females are at the bottom of the ladder when it comes to productivity.

FFS Dan, that is insulting to any woman that has had children!

I managed to have 3 kids under five. During those first 5 years of motherhood I owned and operated a shop with my husband, was on the local Kindy committee, was the Treasurer of the Kindy Assn overseeing 7 kindergartens and formulationg and managing the budget for the newly introduced Bulk Funding.

We did not have daycare available to fall back on and I had no family near to assist me. My husband never once got up at night to help out, one of my lovelies did not sleep through the night till he was well over 2, there were plenty of times I had 2 kids up at night, the baby feeding and a toddler just whinging and whining.

Your blanket chauvanism really is offensive.

I agree with you that employees have to be productive, and that no emplyer should have to pay for anything less than 100% from their staff. However having been an emplyer for nearly 30 years it is my experience that you get the best out of your staff when you are actually interested in supporting them to achieve 100%. You can not simply demand it. Give and take is what it is all about.

Working parents that have to do a hard day at the swamp and parent a family get my utmost respect. FWIW here, I think music class for a child that is still in nappies is ridiculous! Daycare have music and movement sort of programmes. My kids got music class in the car as I ferried them around, and at home where the music was always playing.

It is the expectations that some have on what their kids should be doing that is the problem mate. Fuck me I looked after a 14 month old child for a friend, he was staying the night away from home for the first time with strangers. He arrived with the most incredible amount of STUFF. I took him outside, filled a tub with water, gave him some pots and containers and a few spoons to bash stuff with. He had a ball. He did not need all the crap that his loving, well meaning mother knew he had to have to be happy.

[jrandom]

During those first 5 years of motherhood I owned and operated a shop with my husband, was on the local Kindy committee, was the Treasurer of the Kindy Assn...

Sounds like you were very busy and handled it well.

But you weren't actually employed, so to speak, were you? Volunteer work and assisting with a family business is a big load, to be sure, but it's a different scenario. The requisite flexibility exists as a given, since you're not in the process of fulfilling a contract with someone else.


... having been an emplyer for nearly 30 years it is my experience that you get the best out of your staff when you are actually interested in supporting them to achieve 100%. You can not simply demand it. Give and take is what it is all about.

Of course.

My point is that female employees who don't bring the same attitude to the table are going about things the wrong way.

And this thread's OP (and, for that matter, #1's subsequent comments) is an excellent example of females demanding what's good for them, rather than thinking about offering an attractive deal to their employer.

It's a shame that pointing out the obvious about the issues that women face in the workforce results in an accusation of chauvinism. Presumably, if I commented on the over-representation of Maoris in crime statistics, you'd be calling me racist?

:no:

[fireliv]

Hay Jude,

Hope things get better for ya workwise, and that your stress levels go down. It could be worse!!! Thats what I always think when I think my situation has gotten bad.

Good luck with sorting out your job etc, at least you have your son, and hopefully your health, and the rest is just detail after that.:hug:

[Mom]

But you weren't actually employed, so to speak, were you? Volunteer work and assisting with a family business is a big load, to be sure, but it's a different scenario.


Well I guess working 5 and a half days a week at the shop and doing the accounts and book keeping at home could be considered assisting in a family business if you really wanted to look at it that way.

Keep digging man, it is not getting any less insulting ;)

[Storm]

I commented on the over-representation of Maoris in crime statistics, you'd be calling me racist?



You dirty racist bastard!!!!





Happy now?:bleh:

[Oakie]

It is against the law for employers to allow people to miss or give up their rights to their scheduled breaks. We can be prosecuted by the labour department for that.
You are entitled to a break every 2.5 hours which can be stretched to every 3 hours by mutual agreement.
Flexi time is an option that i take with my staff.

Not ALL NZ employers are crap.

Actually there is no explicit statutory requirement that employers provide employees with rest or meal breaks, although most employers already allow reasonable breaks.