Smearlection...

[Marmoot]

Smearlection is coming up...

Why can't we get parties and candidates who emphasis on what they can bring into the government and the people, and elect based on the good stuffs that we like?

I'm sick of candidates who focus on how bad the others are instead of the leading edge they have.

This smearlection seems more not like who's the best, but more of who's the best of the worsts.

Sickening.

[ManDownUnder]

See the 2nd rule of business... (per Dr Richard Buchanan Massey Uni PN Circa 1990)

1st rule - don't shoot yourself in the foot
2nd Rule - while you have your gun in hand - shoot the other guy's foot.

[Marmoot]

That's the one I'm complaining about.

[R6_kid]

How about the fact that when they do get in, they spend all their time in the debating chamber taking cheap shots at each other instead of actually running this country they way it should be getting run.

[Big Dave]

The summary of a 10,000 word report:

Practical Implications
The results of this study provide empirical evidence suggesting that comparative advertising is not inherently more persuasive than non-comparative advertising. However, the experimental results suggest that a comparative advertisement is more persuasive than a non-comparative advertisement when higher construction-motivated involvement is activated and a source of higher credibility is included in the advertisement. Therefore, practitioners should use sources with a high degree of credibility when engaging in comparative advertising. These results also suggest that copy tests of comparative advertisements should examine the audiences' perception of the credibility of the source. This research contributes new empirical evidence identifying conditions within which comparative advertising is likely to have a more positive effect on purchase intentions than non-comparative advertising. This study also suggests that practitioners might use attribution theory as the framework for developing more effective comparative advertisements.

[avgas]

don't like it - don't vote
i don't and the same monkeys get in anywho. But at the end of the day unless i paid an assassin to kill them all the place would be full of monkeys anyways.
Its kinda like assholes. You never look at your asshole in the mirror, you never compare your asshole to your neighbors.....politics if full of assholes. And so should be treated as such a device.
You don't need it - but without it you wouldn't have shit would you.

[Hitcher]

Coke versus Pepsi. When people tire of one, they switch to the other.

There is no fundamental difference between our two major political parties. Indeed nearly all of the other "parties" (with the possible exception of the Greens) are disgruntled members of either Labour or National who've used the crock called MMP to keep themselves in Parliament. Neither of the major parties is offering anything innovative or constructive. Even if they were, it would be watered down after the election as they sucked the dicks of potential coalition partners.

We're not living in a democracy, nor are we allowed to. Any efforts from the electorate to have a referendum to vote on the future of the farce that is MMP have so far been thrown out by politicians with a vested interest in its retention.

If I could find somewhere better to live politically, I'd be there. Meanwhile I'll stay here and moan.

And in New Zealand they're arseholes. Assholes only live in the USA.

[Robert Taylor]

Coke versus Pepsi. When people tire of one, they switch to the other.

There is no fundamental difference between our two major political parties. Indeed nearly all of the other "parties" (with the possible exception of the Greens) are disgruntled members of either Labour or National who've used the crock called MMP to keep themselves in Parliament. Neither of the major parties is offering anything innovative or constructive. Even if they were, it would be watered down after the election as they sucked the dicks of potential coalition partners.

We're not living in a democracy, nor are we allowed to. Any efforts from the electorate to have a referendum to vote on the future of the farce that is MMP have so far been thrown out by politicians with a vested interest in its retention.

If I could find somewhere better to live politically, I'd be there. Meanwhile I'll stay here and moan.

And in New Zealand they're arseholes. Assholes only live in the USA.

I both agree and disagree. One of the big fundamental problems is a very large slice of the electorate are generationally conditioned to ''the state will look after us'' Its all about who is offering the biggest bag of lollies and our 3 year electoral cycle, and yes ''mickey mouse politics''. The political climate that I would like would expunge the ''world owes us a living mentality'' and make people get a grip on their own self discipline and responsibility. But if you campaigned on such policies you would be unelectable.
The National party is far from perfect and too leftward but still far preferable to the most corrupt Government in our history.

[Flatcap]

I both agree and disagree.

Definitely 'arseholes'

[AllanB]

Great a few months of Helens "seal" laugh on public TV.

[Flatcap]

Great a few months of Helens "seal" laugh on public TV.

Nah - is more like a walrus:

[jrandom]

Why can't we get parties and candidates who emphasis on what they can bring into the government and the people, and elect based on the good stuffs that we like?

Sounds to me as though sir needs to wake up and smell the bud.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis Party.

Tick the leaf in 2008!

[Niterider]

I both agree and disagree. One of the big fundamental problems is a very large slice of the electorate are generationally conditioned to ''the state will look after us'' Its all about who is offering the biggest bag of lollies and our 3 year electoral cycle, and yes ''mickey mouse politics''. The political climate that I would like would expunge the ''world owes us a living mentality'' and make people get a grip on their own self discipline and responsibility. But if you campaigned on such policies you would be unelectable.
The National party is far from perfect and too leftward but still far preferable to the most corrupt Government in our history.

Now you're talking like Leighton Smith!!

[Robert Taylor]

Now you're talking like Leighton Smith!!

Wouldnt know, never listen to him. But I hear he makes a lot of sense.

[jrandom]

Wouldnt know, never listen to him. But I hear he makes a lot of sense.

I take it you won't be voting ALCP, then?

:weep:

[Robert Taylor]

Sounds to me as though sir needs to wake up and smell the bud.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis Party.

Tick the leaf in 2008!

Thats so everyone can smoke it and pretend everything is all okay............

[Big Dave]

Sounds to me as though sir needs to wake up and smell the bud.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis Party.

Tick the leaf in 2008!

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/labor-took-cash-donation-from-drug-trafficker/2008/09/05/1220121497833.html

[jrandom]

Thats so everyone can smoke it and pretend everything is all okay............

Well, yes. A little bit, aye.

:pinch:

[jrandom]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/labor-took-cash-donation-from-drug-trafficker/2008/09/05/1220121497833.html

See, with sensible laws in place, he wouldn't have been a criminal!

[Coyote]

Sounds to me as though sir needs to wake up and smell the bud.

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis Party.

Tick the leaf in 2008!
I think I might. Not that I've ever tried it. But if it's legal, perhaps. At least ALCP are clear about their policies. Unless they turn ironic and criminalise everything e.g. sex.


The National party is far from perfect and too leftward but still far preferable to the most corrupt Government in our history.
Too far left? Economically or Socially? They do seem to be playing it softly by being P.C. and supposedly caring about the general public but I'm sure they'll snap out of that once they're in power.

[Big Dave]

See, with sensible laws in place, he wouldn't have been a criminal!

He wouldn't have been in Canberra. Decriminalised.

[Niterider]

Wouldnt know, never listen to him. But I hear he makes a lot of sense.

What's ACT's story? Does anyone know? I've heard very little of them but what I've heard at least they are against the Carbon Emmissions Scam.

[10bikekid]

Something a little different:yes:, check out vidios

http://www.familyparty.org.nz/

[MisterD]

What's ACT's story? Does anyone know? I've heard very little of them but what I've heard at least they are against the Carbon Emmissions Scam.

They're the only party that have the following:

1) A clear vision of where they want the country to be
2) A well thought out plan to achieve it.

Electorate vote National, party vote ACT you know it makes sense. Just don't vote for Liarbour (or Jim's Lairbour Annex) or the Watermelon party - because that will see you footing the bill for their election campaigns in future.

[Indiana_Jones]

They're the only party that have the following:

1) A clear vision of where they want the country to be
2) A well thought out plan to achieve it.

Electorate vote National, party vote ACT you know it makes sense. Just don't vote for Liarbour (or Jim's Lairbour Annex) or the Watermelon party - because that will see you footing the bill for their election campaigns in future.

Thanks for that MisterD, Hadn't seen that table for a while. Makes a lot of sense to me!

Piss of aunty Helen!

But the bitch will wriggle back in again, just like last time

-Indy

[slofox]

We're not living in a democracy, .

I doubt we have ever lived in a democracy Hitcher - we live in a bureaucracy.....the elected government is steered by the non elected establishment to a large extent. That old TV "comedy" 'Yes Minister' reflected more truth than most of us would like to admit.....

[Skyryder]

Ultimatley politics is about credibility. You believe us to do A B C and D to get H I J and K result or you believe the other guys more.


Smear politics was bought into this country by Muldoon and the Dancing Cossacks and it has been a trait carried out with every election by the Nats ever since.


Skyryder

[avgas]

Coke versus Pepsi
You mean Cola don't you - the assholes brought Coca-Cola here when they immergrated. COKE is a figment of your overmarketed south american imagination.....
As for Pepsi-Cola......or Pepsi-Co......

Its a valid point when you compare to "Dr Peppers" and "Sarsi".........where the actual flavour changes.

Just thought i would clear this up for you ;)

[Marmoot]

I'm just a bit fed up after watching the american election campaigns, obama's speech, mccain's speech etc.

Why we never got something like that in our politics? Are we really that stupid as a nation?

[98tls]

Seems so.Personally i would vote for the first person to say "we will abolish the working for families bludge".Nobody will so at a bit of a loss what to tick really.

[oldrider]

Majority New Zealand is "left wing".

Nearly every party offering themselves to the NZ electorate is "left wing" by degree, some more so than others.

The only really "Right wing" organisation on offer in NZ is here: www.libertarianz.org.nz

Read what they have to say and draw your own conclusions!

When lefties want to make progress they lean to the ideas of the right but are afraid of the backlash from the left wing voters who keep them in power.

New Zealand suffers from the quality of government that they deserve simply because ultimately "that is what they demand".

The left wing media make sure that it stays that way by lampooning anyone who strays too far to the right.

What a sad, sad little country this is. :spanking: Think for your selves, it's still not too bloody late! :nono: John.

[jrandom]

obama's speech, mccain's speech etc...

Speeches.

Yes, the Americans get to listen to lovely speeches.

And then they get to go to the polls and pick between a black figurehead offering hot air and recycled dreams and a bitter ex-soldier who just wants to watch the world burn.

And we do our regular flip-flop between our indistinguishable parties of the left and the right, and life in this country of woodchips and milk powder continues to potter along much as it always has.

I'm not sure what my point is, but I do believe I'll have another drink...

[Robert Taylor]

Speeches.

Yes, the Americans get to listen to lovely speeches.

And then they get to go to the polls and pick between a black figurehead offering hot air and recycled dreams and a bitter ex-soldier who just wants to watch the world burn.

And we do our regular flip-flop between our indistinguishable parties of the left and the right, and life in this country of woodchips and milk powder continues to potter along much as it always has.

I'm not sure what my point is, but I do believe I'll have another drink...

But at least Sarah Palin is easy to watch......and listen to. I think the thrust of your argument is that its just a merry-go-round, pretty much the truth.
Nonetheless I will still opt for a National Government and if I was American its a no brainer, McCain / Palin.

[jrandom]

But at least Sarah Palin is easy to watch...

Yes. Yes, I'd hit it.

[Marmoot]

I'm not sure what my point is, but I do believe I'll have another drink...

Whatever you're having, I think I need one too.

Sarah Palin.....reminds me of Suzy Cato

Hawt....

[Storm]

Suzy has long been well fit innit

[Sanx]

Something a little different:yes:, check out vidios

http://www.familyparty.org.nz/

Oooh look. A political party for the terminally delusional and weak-minded. But, probably to be expected given the person who posted up the link.

[Skyryder]

Majority New Zealand is "left wing".

Nearly every party offering themselves to the NZ electorate is "left wing" by degree, some more so than others.

The only really "Right wing" organisation on offer in NZ is here: www.libertarianz.org.nz

Read what they have to say and draw your own conclusions!

When lefties want to make progress they lean to the ideas of the right but are afraid of the backlash from the left wing voters who keep them in power.

New Zealand suffers from the quality of government that they deserve simply because ultimately "that is what they demand".

The left wing media make sure that it stays that way by lampooning anyone who strays too far to the right.

What a sad, sad little country this is. :spanking: Think for your selves, it's still not too bloody late! :nono: John.


If left wing is to the left of the Libertians then on this measure you are correct. To use extreme political ideology and the the Libertarians are, extreem,as you have done to define, the ideological climate of NZ is to misunderstand the ideological bent of the electorate. If I was to use Marxism as the defining point then it would be fair to say that most NZ’ers are to the right. Personally I do not believe that the majority of New Zealanders do have a defining political ideology, not in the sense that Americans see themselves as either Republican or Democrats. Historically New Zealand has shown that it is conservative in nature and I use the term loosely and not in a political sense. This is born out by the numerical success of National Party electoral wins as against those of Labour. The succession of three Labour Governments under Clarke is an anomaly of this tradition but in no way could this be seen as a contradiction of the conservatism of NZ; not in my use of the word. And it is worth pointing out that Clarkes last win was based on lies of the Nats with Brash as their leader, not as you suggest ideology or the influence of a left wing press.

I can not recall any Labour win based on ideology. New Zealanders tend to be conservative in their politics and most, not all editorials, of the press reflect this.

Skyryder

[oldrider]

Don't worry, Labour will be back in power after the election! :doh:

How can they miss, they will coddle up to anyone or anything to retain power.

Labour, Greens, Maori, Anderton, Dunn and Winston if he survives. (he will) Take your pick! (Helen will)

Against:

National and ACT. (ACT perhaps)

Go figure, more Socialist, "social engineering" and virtually no opposition, the dictatorship will continue!

New Zealand is still in the political shit and it only the "depth" that is going to vary after the sham MMP election is settled!

Media trends, "The poll's are closing, the gap between National and Labour is getting narrower"!

Was it ever really there and how would you know? :confused: Bullshitting, brainwashing, bastards! :brick: Frustrated, John.

[Skyryder]

Don't worry, Labour will be back in power after the election! :doh:

How can they miss, they will coddle up to anyone or anything to retain power.

Labour, Greens, Maori, Anderton, Dunn and Winston if he survives. (he will) Take your pick! (Helen will)

Against:

National and ACT. (ACT perhaps)

Go figure, more Socialist, "social engineering" and virtually no opposition, the dictatorship will continue!

New Zealand is still in the political shit and it only the "depth" that is going to vary after the sham MMP election is settled!

Media trends, "The poll's are closing, the gap between National and Labour is getting narrower"!

Was it ever really there and how would you know? :confused: Bullshitting, brainwashing, bastards! :brick: Frustrated, John.


Of the parties that you have mentioned only Anderton and Winstone have stated that they will not form a coalition with the Nats. If you take Winstones credibility or lack of it that only leaves Anderton who will not form a coalition with National. Therefore that leaves all the others for the Nats to come to an agreement with to govern. So I could argue the same point in respect of the Nats.

On the basis that we do not know one way or the other on the state of the polls I do not disagree. But there comes a time when we must decide on the basis of probability of what we read is true or not. The same criteria is applied to what we believe, as against that of what we do not, given the fact that we must use trust or lack of it to come to a decision one way or the other. An example of this is your belief in Liberterainism. Given the fact that there is not one example of a country that has elected a government of this ideology your belief must be one of trust as there are no examples of proof as a government that it is a success. I raise this merley to demonstrate that trust is the foundation of a belief when there is no personal expertise or knowldege of the subject. We all do this one way or another and it is ultimatley how we make decisions. We trust ourselves and our intelligence to make the right ones.

Skyryder

[Swoop]

...Winstone have stated that they will not form a coalition with the Nats. If you take Winstones credibility or lack of it...
Sounds like he is between a rock and a hard place.
Cementing his relationship with Unkle Heilen, perhaps?

[Skyryder]

Sounds like he is between a rock and a hard place.
Cementing his relationship with Unkle Heilen, perhaps?

Word is that Winston is finished. Even if he survives there is a better chance of a Nat Labour coalition than Labour going with Winstone again.

Labour will not make the same mistake twice.

Skyyrder

[Niterider]

They're the only party that have the following:

1) A clear vision of where they want the country to be
2) A well thought out plan to achieve it.

Electorate vote National, party vote ACT you know it makes sense. Just don't vote for Liarbour (or Jim's Lairbour Annex) or the Watermelon party - because that will see you footing the bill for their election campaigns in future.

Well now that was very nice of you. Thanks!!. I think my mind's made up. Switzerland is governed by the people. They have referendum machines like we have lotto machines. They make the choices on most everything. I see ACT incorporated a lot of Switzerland's policies which definately says a lot!:clap:

[Big Dave]

I'm not sure what my point is, but I do believe I'll have another drink...

Bigdaveitarianism.

[Storm]

Tell us O party Leader Dave of the Bigness

What will your party deliver?

[Big Dave]

Tell us O party Leader Dave of the Bigness

What will your party deliver?

Hangovers.

[Swoop]

What will the colour of the party uniform be?
The destiny church are claiming "black"...

[Big Dave]

What will the colour of the party uniform be?
The destiny church are claiming "black"...

I'll wrestle them for it.

[Niterider]

Being an ex-South African, where I've lived a life of peace and prosperity thru to chaos, murder, rape and corruption, and seeing this country going the same way FAST, I cannot help but be very attracted to such statements as these:

Libertarianz would immediately pull New Zealand out of the Kyoto Protocol and unshackle business and individuals from government interference. Libertarianz are confident that New Zealanders can make their own choices about how they respond to global warming hysteria.

Auckland Gun Dealer Greg Carvell should be applauded for his actions in defending himself from a machete wielding aggressor in his shop yesterday," says Peter Linton, Libertarianz Firearms Spokesman. "All too often these days, ordinary citizens are portrayed as being the bad guy when they are simply acting in self defence."

[Niterider]

The Family Party seems to have good values and ideas, but taking into account the chaotic state the young kiwi's are in, it'll take at least 2 terms of Libertarian rule to get this country back on track again. Let's vote Leighton Smith!!!:done:

[Hitcher]

Let's vote Leighton Smith!

Give the Opinionated Wanker Party your party vote. Lovely.

[oldrider]

Of the parties that you have mentioned only Anderton and Winstone have stated that they will not form a coalition with the Nats. If you take Winstones credibility or lack of it that only leaves Anderton who will not form a coalition with National. Therefore that leaves all the others for the Nats to come to an agreement with to govern. So I could argue the same point in respect of the Nats.

On the basis that we do not know one way or the other on the state of the polls I do not disagree. But there comes a time when we must decide on the basis of probability of what we read is true or not. The same criteria is applied to what we believe, as against that of what we do not, given the fact that we must use trust or lack of it to come to a decision one way or the other. An example of this is your belief in Liberterainism. Given the fact that there is not one example of a country that has elected a government of this ideology your belief must be one of trust as there are no examples of proof as a government that it is a success. I raise this merley to demonstrate that trust is the foundation of a belief when there is no personal expertise or knowldege of the subject. We all do this one way or another and it is ultimatley how we make decisions. We trust ourselves and our intelligence to make the right ones.

Skyryder

The die is already cast, the only minor party that will go with National is ACT.

The media have begun their program of ridicule for National and ACT, all that remains is the election and the circus of jostling for places around Helen's rectum!

New Zealand is a land very low in selenium, iodine and political thinking, the "MMP election" is simply a shameful farce!

Post election circus will simply concrete in the same old same old, probably even worse than before.

You think not? :shifty: Watch this space! :sick: Sceptical? Cynical? Absolutely, I have seen it all so many times before! :yes: John.

[Skyryder]

The die is already cast, the only minor party that will go with National is ACT.

The media have begun their program of ridicule for National and ACT, all that remains is the election and the circus of jostling for places around Helen's rectum!

New Zealand is a land very low in selenium, iodine and political thinking, the "MMP election" is simply a shameful farce!

Post election circus will simply concrete in the same old same old, probably even worse than before.

You think not? :shifty: Watch this space! :sick: Sceptical? Cynical? Absolutely, I have seen it all so many times before! :yes: John.


Dunne is on record of going with the Nats if the oppertunity arises. :devil2: The Maori Party:baby: have not ruled out a coalition with the Nats nor have the Greens:argue: but it was stated that Labour was their first naturall ally: But given the the Nats environment policy:this would need to be modified to some degree for a Green coalition so it would seem unlikely. :Oi:

MMP was the preferred system that the majority of kiwis voted for. It is not the perfect system: and it does have problems but having said that OR it produces a parliment that is 'representitive' of the electoral vote. I don't believe that is a sham. Zimbabwe vote was a sham an to suggest that our system is in the same catorgory is just plain old wrong. MMP:sleep: is better than the old FFP :Oi:where governments were formed not on the majority of votes but the number of electorates that the party won. Minor parties never got any representation at all as they did not have the resources to win electorates. ACT is a minor party becasue of it's policies are not accepted by the majority of New Zealand Your blaming of the media is an expression that you do not believe that the New Zealand public can not make informed decisions on their own. I hold an entirely different opinion in that it (the public) can see both the ramifications of extreem policies of both the left and the right and that the media plays little in this process. The defining process is how Govt policy affects people lives and they form their political philosophy on this, not as you suggest on media machinations to produce a government one way or the other.:Playnice:


Skyryder :dodge:

[MisterD]

The Maori Party:baby: have not ruled out a coalition with the Nats

IMO that's a serious possibility, and Liarbore obviously think so too, judging by Shane Jones' comments (http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdetail1.asp?storyID=144084) today.

What was the issue that gave birth to the Maori Party? The foreshore and seabed legislation, which National want rid of as well (if for different reasons). would National and the Maori Party be able to cut a deal around that, chucking it back to legal process again? Quite possibly. Could Clark swallow that particular 'dead rat' to bring Sharples or Turia into the cabinet...rearrange these words: face humiliating of loss.

[HDTboy]

Nobody gets my vote!

[Marmoot]

Nobody gets my vote!

I'd rather have election promises, than wasting my power on TV full of politicians trying to point out who's worse.

Can't they say "vote me because I'm good" instead of "vote me because he's bad"

Pathetic bunch of losers....

[oldrider]

Dunne is on record of going with the Nats if the oppertunity arises. :devil2: The Maori Party:baby: have not ruled out a coalition with the Nats nor have the Greens:argue: but it was stated that Labour was their first naturall ally: But given the the Nats environment policy:this would need to be modified to some degree for a Green coalition so it would seem unlikely. :Oi:

MMP was the preferred system that the majority of kiwis voted for. It is not the perfect system: and it does have problems but having said that OR it produces a parliment that is 'representitive' of the electoral vote. I don't believe that is a sham. Zimbabwe vote was a sham an to suggest that our system is in the same catorgory is just plain old wrong. MMP:sleep: is better than the old FFP :Oi:where governments were formed not on the majority of votes but the number of electorates that the party won. Minor parties never got any representation at all as they did not have the resources to win electorates. ACT is a minor party becasue of it's policies are not accepted by the majority of New Zealand Your blaming of the media is an expression that you do not believe that the New Zealand public can not make informed decisions on their own. I hold an entirely different opinion in that it (the public) can see both the ramifications of extreem policies of both the left and the right and that the media plays little in this process. The defining process is how Govt policy affects people lives and they form their political philosophy on this, not as you suggest on media machinations to produce a government one way or the other.:Playnice:


Skyryder :dodge:

STV (single transferable vote I think it's called) was my choice at the time, the pollies swindled the electorate with MMP or nothing.

I voted for MMP rather than nothing. (first past the post remaining)

Do you really think that given a 50/50 Labour National result that any of the minor parties would "actually" tie in with National over Labour as first preference?

They would milk the situation for everything that they could get and then run with Labour, they are all of the same ilk.

The left wing NZ media would convince the public that it was the best deal on offer.

When they get into the polling booth and make their ""tick" the majority in NZ will will vote Labour over National every time, they are conditioned that way.

By natural ratio there are always few leaders and many followers.

There are entrepreneurial leaders who make and create wealth and work.

There are also theoretical leaders that subscribe to some formula or another for political and economical power/control.

Socialism abounds with the latter, usually made up up from, ex ministers of religion, unionists, school teachers, university students/professors "academics" and other dead beats that have never had a real job!

Just take a look at the current crop on offer and come to your own conclusion.

No more discussion from me, just wait and see, I hope I am wrong but I doubt it. :shifty: Not long to go now! :shit: John.

[The Pastor]

hey! what better way to watch the election than at a kb election party! http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?p=1722058#post1722058

[Skyryder]

STV (single transferable vote I think it's called) was my choice at the time, the pollies swindled the electorate with MMP or nothing.

I voted for MMP rather than nothing. (first past the post remaining)

Do you really think that given a 50/50 Labour National result that any of the minor parties would "actually" tie in with National over Labour as first preference?

They would milk the situation for everything that they could get and then run with Labour, they are all of the same ilk.

The left wing NZ media would convince the public that it was the best deal on offer.

When they get into the polling booth and make their ""tick" the majority in NZ will will vote Labour over National every time, they are conditioned that way.

By natural ratio there are always few leaders and many followers.

There are entrepreneurial leaders who make and create wealth and work.

There are also theoretical leaders that subscribe to some formula or another for political and economical power/control.

Socialism abounds with the latter, usually made up up from, ex ministers of religion, unionists, school teachers, university students/professors "academics" and other dead beats that have never had a real job!

Just take a look at the current crop on offer and come to your own conclusion.

No more discussion from me, just wait and see, I hope I am wrong but I doubt it. :shifty: Not long to go now! :shit: John.





No OR ‘the polies did not swindle the electorate.

http://books.google.co.nz/books?id=mvC_IiNljSEC&pg=PA187&lpg=PA187&dq=second+mmp+referrendum&source=web&ots=LwCkY_ulSj&sig=hCFQ2dVyVP4VKnfGujhhTcCi-k4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPP1,M1

To long for most but gives a comprehensive account of MMP issues.

A shorter version from a different site

http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/politics/fpp-to-mmp

Wikipedia
The result was in 84.5 per cent favour of replacing FPP, with an overwhelming majority of those favouring a new electoral system voting for MMP. The percentages of the vote cast for the four possible electoral system options offered in the second question were:
• Supplementary Member 5.5%
• Single Transferable Vote 17.5%
• Mixed Member Proportional 70.3%
• Alternative Vote 6.6%



Following Labours victory in 1984 Labour set up a Royal Commission to investigate changes to our electoral system. It completed its report in 1996 with the recommendation to adopt the German system of MMP Most of Labours leaders did not welcome the commissions recommendation. And National was only luke warm to the idea too. There is ample evidence of this for anyone who wants to look.

STV was encouraged by ACT leaning candidates in local body elections with the hope that the this would find favour and become the method of electing Parliament with the so called ‘second’ referendum. The second referendum was a myth propagated by opponents of MMP and is now believed by many as another broken promise by Labour.


The push for STV was undertaken after the Electorate delivered its preferred MMP system. ACT activists were instrumental in propagating this myth so as to push their preferred option of STV. They were partially successful as it is the voting system with the District Health Boards and since it introduction STV has been losing favour. It is slow and cumbersome. There are other problems with it too that I will not go into.

As to whether I think the other minor parties will go with Labour given the 50/50 scenario that you paint I really don’t know. Dunne I would not trust an inch either way, and on this basis I do not know how anyone else could predict that he would go with Labour when he is on record that he could do a deal with National. The only party who has ruled out going with the Nats is Anderton’ Progressives, all others are possible partners with National. Some more than others but all are possible.

The nature of politics is making agreements. If you don’t then someone will and usually at your expense. That is the very substance of the art of real politick and to some extent that of MMP. The object of people standing for Parliament is to be part of the Government. Apart from not breaking the law all else is fair game. Never use to be that way but all changed with the Dancing Cossacks.

It really does sadden me that you still adhere to the belief that kiwi’s are unable to come to their own conclusions of their own free will. I’ve given up hope of turning you back into the fold but I live in hope on the other issue.

The nature of leadership is to lead where the majority will follow. That is the nature of most but not all organizations. I adhere to the principle where a policy be it of a business Corporation, a Local Body Council, a Union, or for that matter a political party where decisions are made by the members. We ‘do’ live in a democracy. Google Corporate Societies and see how many there are. They all are based on the democratic principal. All of them. Democracy is the very foundation of our society and because it does not deliver the kind of society that you want does not mean that it does not exist. Just how much anyone wants to partake in this is their choice and anyone can choose to join any organization that takes their interest; political or other wise.

Academics and other dead beats abound on all side of the political spectrum and not just Labour. Those that enter public life do so for many reasons, some are doubtful but I prefer that most go in too try and make a better society. Whether you or I agree as to the success or failure is another matter but it is the intent of the individual that is important.


Cheers OR stay safe. :niceone:

Skyryder

[Flatcap]

Academics and other dead beats abound on all side of the political spectrum and not just Labour.


True - however Labour seem to have more than their fair share.

I think by definition you would need to be at least slightly mental to enter politics

[Niterider]

I both agree and disagree. One of the big fundamental problems is a very large slice of the electorate are generationally conditioned to ''the state will look after us'' Its all about who is offering the biggest bag of lollies and our 3 year electoral cycle, and yes ''mickey mouse politics''. The political climate that I would like would expunge the ''world owes us a living mentality'' and make people get a grip on their own self discipline and responsibility. But if you campaigned on such policies you would be unelectable.
The National party is far from perfect and too leftward but still far preferable to the most corrupt Government in our history.

So what is wrong with the Libertarian view then? They're electable too...