If in doubt, gas it out. Really?

[Sparkz]

This is something where I find theory and practice don't meet up so well. Maybe somebody can clear it up for me.

If in doubt, gas it out.

The Stranger brought that little saying up in another post and it reminded me to ask the question. I have heard it before, and read it in The Twist of the Wrist by Keith Code, but I am buggered if it works for me.

If I find myself in a corner too hot, and running wide, I roll off the throttle and the bike tightens up in the corner. If I roll on the throttle, I go even wider. Obviously chopping the throttle would be a crap idea, I am talking about rolling it off just enough to tighten up for the corner.

So when does giving it gas help when you are in a tight spot?

[avgas]

sounds like you need to get a bit of dirt experience. The instance is where you steer with the rear instead of the front. Forcing the bike to turn not the bars.
This differs from slingshoting a corner where the lean of the bike dictates how well the corner is performed by increasing the g-force.
Its something that is all science and yet all natural. Someday you just get it - like countersteering. I can't explain how to do it, you just have to try it for yourself.
If you cant get it in a bike - find yourself a nice rear wheel drive car and plant it in the corner and steer out of the side windows.
Don't think - Feel

[discotex]

So when does giving it gas help when you are in a tight spot?

Gas cracked on takes weight off the front wheel lowering the chance of the front washing out.

If the rear steps out and you chop the gas you're toast (instant high-side). Keep the gas on and drift :2thumbsup

Twist of the Wrist covers it pretty well. Keeping the gas on a little keeps the weight balanced to the available grip.

Basically if you're at the limit of grip rolling off the gas is likely to push the front over the edge. Better to power/counter-steer and pray. If that doesn't work you were probably stuffed anyway.

(don't nail the throttle wide open.. just keep the gas cracked on)

[CookMySock]

Gas cracked on takes weight off the front wheel lowering the chance of the front washing out.

If the rear steps out and you chop the gas you're toast (instant high-side). Keep the gas on and drift :2thumbsup

Twist of the Wrist covers it pretty well. Keeping the gas on a little keeps the weight balanced to the available grip.

Basically if you're at the limit of grip rolling off the gas is likely to push the front over the edge. Better to power/counter-steer and pray. If that doesn't work you were probably stuffed anyway.

(don't nail the throttle wide open.. just keep the gas cracked on)I've been road-riding only 7 months and ALL of this is fucken excellant advice. I have been trying it out for the last six weeks, and the bike is so so sooo much better planted, and now my cornering feels balanced instead of like I'm riding around it on the front wheel.

Sit back, power off and slow up to the corner, look up, tip in and simultaneously roll the throttle off overrun and into coast mode, and feel the magic. Soon you will be rolling more than just coast mode in. Thanks to the folks to explained it to me.

And yeah if you are feeling really screwed FFS DO NOT roll it off or brake hard, just shoulder out and bar push harder and feel the fear and do it, and live !

Steve

[slimjim]

Time..... and....... book yourself into a Track Day...... Your Learn The Basic's soooo fucking easy ..... that the pratice is on the road....

i enjoy the track days that are at manfield... Book ......As its Seeing ... Feeling.... Knowing......i must admit it took time to come out of a corner... power drifting. nope power control rear wheel gas cracked . its so...cool .an the xjr just ripes tires.... however its taught by the lads that explained , then followed , then allowed me to learn while given advice.. its control.. yup ... mate an i've been riding nearly.. 43yrs..

[slofox]

As long as you keep enough gas on to keep the rear down on the road, a little judicious use of the REAR brake can help bleed off the excessive speed in the situation you describe....please note I said JUDICIOUS.......don't slam the thing on or you will arse off real quick.....and it does take some practice. Try it when you are not in any danger - works in a cage as well.......

[Pwalo]

I think the problem is created before you get to the corner. Unless you're on a race track each corner is going to be different, and you need to be a bit more careful with your approach speed and set up.

The idea is to have a constant, or preferably slowly opening throttle through the corner. To do this you need to be in the appropriate location, at the appropriate speed, and in the appropriate gear. Simple really. Slow down your approach, and only get back on the gas when you can see the exit of the corner. And if you really like to go fast go and do a track day.

[xwhatsit]

Sit back, power off and slow up to the corner, look up, tip in and simultaneously roll the throttle off overrun and into coast mode, and feel the magic. Soon you will be rolling more than just coast mode in. Thanks to the folks to explained it to me.
Everything's kind of amplified on my bike due to poor suspension, bendy frame and forks etc., but you'll feel even more planted if you slow down a little more and actually keep some positive acceleration on throughout the corner. Overrun through a corner has me filling my pants, neutral coasting is a little better (still scary though; I've grabbed a false neutral (or real neutral) once or twice downhill, not at all relaxing), but actually keeping the power on has the bike the most settled by far. I mean throughout the corner, not just winding it on at the apex. Means you have to come into the corner slower and set up your lines further in advance though. To anybody from the SMC reading -- I don't know if it's any faster than just flopping it in then blatting out of the apex, but road-riding has nowt to do with going fast.

Slow in, fast out; not just for four wheels.

[The Stranger]

Gas cracked on takes weight off the front wheel lowering the chance of the front washing out.

If the rear steps out and you chop the gas you're toast (instant high-side). Keep the gas on and drift :2thumbsup

Twist of the Wrist covers it pretty well. Keeping the gas on a little keeps the weight balanced to the available grip.

Basically if you're at the limit of grip rolling off the gas is likely to push the front over the edge. Better to power/counter-steer and pray. If that doesn't work you were probably stuffed anyway.

(don't nail the throttle wide open.. just keep the gas cracked on)

Pretty much 100% what I would have said.
Plus it increases ground clearance and in a similar fashion to trail braking usually settles the chassis.

[The Stranger]

Basically if you're at the limit of grip rolling off the gas is likely to push the front over the edge. Better to power/counter-steer and pray. If that doesn't work you were probably stuffed anyway.



Plus consider the all important bullshit and excuses later.
Which sounds better.

I squeeled like a little girl, panicked, grabbed a handfull of brake and washed out the front end - fuck I'm a looser.

OR

I went in there under full power, lit up the rear and it bucked me into a high side -fuck I've got a set of kahunas!

These are very important considerations. If you are going to fuck it up, fuck it up in style!

[Sparkz]

All good advice, thanks guys.

Incidently, I have been on a few trackdays already, but it is very different to the road. You know exactly what each corner is like and can plan ahead. On the road, a decreasing radius blind corner happens with little to no warning.

I guess the point is I am getting into a bad habit of rolling off to tighten in a corner, instead of tipping it in more and cracking the throttle. Rather have the rear loaded to give traction than overload the front.

[notme]

So when does giving it gas help when you are in a tight spot?

Probably not quite what you meant, but a friend had a moment with his brand new Goldwing at a set of lights - somehow he let it start falling from stationary just as the light turned green, sitting at a right hand turn. He gave it gas and put his feet up, and so pulled one big arse heavy Goldwing uprght and continued on his way in one fluid motion.

The physics are somewhat different if you are talking about cornering, but you asked the question, and this was one case where the gas helped! :niceone:

[Dani-D]

I'd say if it was me and I aws committed to the turn and it was running out fast, I'd be trailbraking alittle, rolling the gas to compensate for the drag and leaning, leaning alot more than I already was.

Touch the front brake and i go striaght off or lowside.

Snap the gas closed, more likely a lowside then the outside bank.

Pour on the gas, smoke the rear and look back at my bike from upsidedown, in the air, somewhere infront of it so it can run me down. Highsides are NASTY

Lean in more, thinking "wedge the seat side into my butt crack, hook my knee on the other side, look under the inside mirror, ignore my toe scraping on the road - thats normal - nothing to worry about, relax, your gonna make it and this really is FUN!" Seems to work so far.

Practice hanging right off the side of your bike, you'll probably be quite surprised at how the first few time you'll over exagerate it and actually start turning tighter than you need too. This lets you know you have a little more lean there if you ever need it.

[FzerozeroT]

It may be good advice, but if you get into a situation where it is applicable and you stop to have a think about it then you're already stuffed.
I'm already on the gas everywhere I go so doesn't apply to me :P

[henry]

I'd say if it was me and I aws committed to the turn and it was running out fast, I'd be trailbraking alittle, rolling the gas to compensate for the drag and leaning, leaning alot more than I already was.

And by lean he means counter steer. It aint gonna lean by will alone. Push on the bars, drop it in and roll on the power.

[Dani-D]

And by lean he means counter steer. It aint gonna lean by will alone. Push on the bars, drop it in and roll on the power.

She thank you very much :nono:

Its funny how much we do by instinct and feel, then think about it after its been and gone. The more I sat here going through the motions of what I do on the raod or track the more I realised its actually quite involved.

For me, once I started concentrating on getting my ass over the side and my head out and down, the rest came naturally. Still have the odd moment though, on Sunday coming down the Saddle Rd, I was having a bitch inside my head about sun strike and bugs on my shield when I focused on said bugs, just for a second. I was approaching a tight 35km corner following another bike and forgot the turn. Had to hang way off and didn't even think about it until i was through then started to half laugh/half cry at how close and how stupid that was.

Practice - practice - Practice - and then practice some more. Eventually, when you stop thinking and just do, you'll get it everytime. You may even be able to change track on your iPod as you do it. I've still to learn that trick.

[CookMySock]

I guess the point is I am getting into a bad habit of rolling off to tighten in a corner, instead of tipping it in more and cracking the throttle. Rather have the rear loaded to give traction than overload the front.Its very scary trying to break that habit, and if you get a fright it is very difficult holding that throttle on, but maths and science is correct, and the result is impressive, and soon you will feel it and believe it.


I'd say if it was me and I aws committed to the turn and it was running out fast, I'd be trailbraking alittle, rolling the gas to compensate for the drag and leaning, leaning alot more than I already was.This trailbraking thing is interesting. I read the earlier explanation and see how it works, but I don't understand how I can add throttle and brake the wheel simultaneously ? How does this work ?



Lean in more, thinking "wedge the seat side into my butt crack, hook my knee on the other side, look under the inside mirror, ignore my toe scraping on the road - thats normal - nothing to worry about, relax, your gonna make it and this really is FUN!" Seems to work so far.That brings a tear to my eye. :love:

Steve

[Quasievil]

If I find myself in a corner too hot, and running wide,

The Best advise is tackle the reason as to why youre going in to hot, in the fewest words possible, you shouldnt be, and if you are youre going to cop it eventually. You are not reading the road right or you are in the mindset that youre a racer, both situations will be fatal
For learning that level of skill you need to as other have said do a track day, that is a controlled enviroment for learning that kinda think.

Anyway, I havent read the twist of the throttle, I would suggest the best way would be to decelerate there by loading up the front a little and counter steer with your inside hand.
DONT touch the front brake, a little trail braking might help also

[Dani-D]

This trailbraking thing is interesting. I read the earlier explanation and see how it works, but I don't understand how I can add throttle and brake the wheel simultaneously ? How does this work ?

I think its a throwback from my first bikes. My background was in the Dirt where I either had the back brake on or off, nothing in between and I never developed any feel or finesse with it. I used to ride an NSR 2 stroke and would sometimes kill the engine with none too subtle stabs of the back brake when I was learning. Having it lock up then bump back into life mid corner ruined many a day for me and my long suffering dad.. I've killed off a few fairing sets in my early years.

Dad ended up resetting my rear brake so I could only use about 80% max.

I guess in practice, I'm actually only over lapping the brake and throttle for a second, brake on, then just before its coming off I'm rolling a little gas back on.

[Dani-D]

That brings a tear to my eye. :love:

Steve

Thanks - I think

[Kiwi Graham]

Heading into the corner too hot??!!

Look to you exit (apex or vanishing point)
roll on the throttle (unloads the front tyre) or trail the rear brake (helps tighten the line)
weight the inside bar (counter steer)

Most importantly dont look at the area you think you will run wide into otherwise thats exactly where you will go (target fixation)

Best not to turn up at your corner too hot but we've all been there eh!

[Kiwi Graham]

This trailbraking thing is interesting. I read the earlier explanation and see how it works, but I don't understand how I can add throttle and brake the wheel simultaneously ? How does this work ?

Steve

Its all about transfering weight and balance. Trailing the back brake and nailing the throttle out of the last right hander entering the start finish straight at Pukekohe keeps the front wheel down, stops you running wide and keeps you accelerating (all at the same time)

[CookMySock]

Its all about transfering weight and balance. Trailing the back brake and nailing the throttle out of the last right hander entering the start finish straight at Pukekohe keeps the front wheel down, stops you running wide and keeps you accelerating (all at the same time)Ok I can sort of see how, but wouldn't the same thing be accomplished just by laying off the throttle somewhat ?

Many thanks,
Steve

[Quailboy]

Its all about transfering weight and balance. Trailing the back brake and nailing the throttle out of the last right hander entering the start finish straight at Pukekohe keeps the front wheel down, stops you running wide and keeps you accelerating (all at the same time)


Very interesting, always good to get some tips as I learn to ride.

I guess as you put the back brake on and roll on throttle it would push the front of bike downwards pushing front wheel into the ground therefore more grip.

[Quasievil]

roll on the throttle (unloads the front tyre) weight the inside bar (counter steer)



So Youre already coming into a corner to hot and you say the best thing to do is this?

So lighten the load on the front wheel by more throttle and increase the counter steer ?

Bags not.............introducing low slide.

[Kiwi Graham]

So Youre already coming into a corner to hot and you say the best thing to do is this?

So lighten the load on the front wheel by more throttle and increase the counter steer ?

Bags not.............introducing low slide.

Dude, the low side is going to happen BECAUSE of the load on the front wheel. Transfer some of thet load to the back and you give the front a chance.

Dont forget you are in an undesirable position and your looking to get out of it not make it worse.
Ask any racer about it and/or try it yourself and all will become clear :2thumbsup

[bully]

isnt trail breaking like draging the rear, which slows you up and pulls you in, yer the throttle would be on, but only just cracked.im no expert but it helps me, i guess a slipper clutch gives you more confidence.

may sound weird but i learnt that from ps2, theres some real life like games out there, and it doesnt hurt when you ass up.

[Dani-D]

And remember my Dads favorite line when I was learning. "Look Through The Turn"

[FROSTY]

Best advice I got --If in doubt-LEAN MORE

[Morepower]

Best advice I got --If in doubt-LEAN MORE

Actualy the best piece of advice so far in this thread. In most circumstances with us mere mortals the bike is far more capable than we are.

The best thing to do if you are coming into a corner too hot and you are probably real hard on the brakes is to let the brakes go ( not easy ) , then pull in the clutch ( seriously ) then look up to where you want to go ( i.e the exit of the corner . The idea is to get maximum lateral grip and you cant do this if you are braking or accellerating in any way.
I learned this in advanced driving , I thought I could drive a car out of a skid until I learned I couldnt, It works like magic if you loose a car and there was no reason it should not work with 2 wheels . its just physics and has got me out of the odd scrape.
Remember any accelleration or braking reduces your lateral grip , thats also why the fastest guys at the track are the smoothest in the corners.

Dave

[Motu]

The best thing to do if you are coming into a corner too hot and you are probably real hard on the brakes is to let the brakes go ( not easy ) , then pull in the clutch ( seriously ) then look up to where you want to go ( i.e the exit of the corner . The idea is to get maximum lateral grip and you cant do this if you are braking or accellerating in any way.

Remember any accelleration or braking reduces your lateral grip , thats also why the fastest guys at the track are the smoothest in the corners.
Dave

Hard to make the leap of faith....but it does work.

This is why I like 2 strokes,the lack of engine braking is great.The rear doesn't step out on corner entry,and further into the corner the front is light with no weight transfer.Then if you discover you've come in a bit hot....no worries,just tighten or widen the line,brake with front or rear,plenty of things you can do with neutral handling.