View Full Version : 05 CRF250R Bad rattle/grind noise
B0000M
9th September 2008, 09:31
my mate's CRF250R had recently got a real bad noise, it sounds similar to the noise that a bike makes when you push the kick starter down while its running, only its not that noise because if you push the starter down then it makes that noise too.
doesnt get better or worse through trying anything we have done so far
have had the right side crankcase cover off, checked all the kickstater stuff we can see
water pump looks ok too, everything in that side thats visable looks and feels ok to me.
ive seen bits of comments about the decompression thing rattling, but havnt seen any solutions. but i have no idea if this is even possibly the problem.
it sounds to me like the sound is coming from in the right crankcase cover, but its quite difficult to pinpoint with all the different sounds coming out of the thing.
id assume its not the valves because 1 minute it didnt rattle, then the next it did, it didnt get gradually worse.
anyone got any suggestions of where to look next?
cheese
9th September 2008, 10:12
Try the aftermarket CR250 replacement. LOL
is it the cam chain you think? Have you had the head off adn looked at the valves?
B0000M
9th September 2008, 10:59
definately coming from the right hand side. i would doubt its the chain or valves due to the way it suddenly started rather than gradually getting louder.
sound like something metal grinding on something else metal.. not a nice sound
cheese
9th September 2008, 11:56
Didn;t he get it stcuk in a bog recently? Maybe its something like what happened to that guys KTM on here?
B0000M
9th September 2008, 13:30
Didn;t he get it stcuk in a bog recently? Maybe its something like what happened to that guys KTM on here?
yea, its been in a massive bog, but i fail to see how that has affected it, there was a bit of muddy shit in there- bad enough to flush it thru a couple of times with clean oil, but not bad enough to cause a meltdown i wouldnt think. engine and engine oil seem fine - have drained both lots of oil.
the 2 stroke option may be on the cars judgeing by how much he seems to like the CR250s to ride
xwhatsit
9th September 2008, 13:41
it sounds to me like the sound is coming from in the right crankcase cover, but its quite difficult to pinpoint with all the different sounds coming out of the thing.
You might know this trick already, but it's really quite effective -- get a big screwdriver, put your ear up to the handle and touch the pointy end against the engine where you want to check for noises. Like a stethoscope!
Doesn't sound fun. Haven't revved the tits off it and bent a valve or something?
B0000M
9th September 2008, 13:49
done that too, on the "tappet cover" sounds good, on the cylinder just sounds like the exaust, and on the right crank case cover sounds like what the problem sounds like, but i cant localise it any more than that.
the other unfortunate thing is it has a Ti4 on it and its fucken noisy, therefore limiting testing times at night
barty5
9th September 2008, 15:46
what was the oil filter like (metal bits in it???)
Also would check for oil pressure dont know bout the hodas but yamaha has a point you can check oil/p worst case run it and crack a oil line make sure oil flowing.
4stroke
9th September 2008, 20:37
lol, my 450 did a simular thing......... the water pump impeller fell off the shaft, its alloy and the threads onto the shaft and the threads shit them selves. umdo the water pump cover and see if the impellor is loose.
honda_power
9th September 2008, 22:42
crankshaft / and or crankshaft bearings, possibly the valves. exact same thing happed to my 2006 crf250r. Whatever you do, DONT RUN THE BIKE! I was out in the middle of nowhere, and rode it home thinking is was the valves, mechanic said i was lucky it didnt blow. cost me $2500 [labour inc], and i had a full rebuild kit that came wuth the bike new, so god knows how much it would have been without. ill try and find receipt and tell ya exacly what was wrong. sounds like the same problem to me, as the bike rattled, then stopped, then did it again etc.
B0000M
9th September 2008, 22:58
crankshaft / and or crankshaft bearings, possibly the valves. exact same thing happed to my 2006 crf250r. Whatever you do, DONT RUN THE BIKE! I was out in the middle of nowhere, and rode it home thinking is was the valves, mechanic said i was lucky it didnt blow. cost me $2500 [labour inc], and i had a full rebuild kit that came wuth the bike new, so god knows how much it would have been without. ill try and find receipt and tell ya exacly what was wrong. sounds like the same problem to me, as the bike rattled, then stopped, then did it again etc.
its more of a grinding sound than a bottom or big end bearing sound, the rattle / grind sound is much faster than the enigne is doing revoloutions - eg several rattles/grinds per revoloution.
had the top end apart tonight for inspection, valve clearences etc are all well within spec. so all is well up there. decomps is also ok
telliman
10th September 2008, 09:46
out of interest(a bit off topic) how many hours has it done?
B0000M
10th September 2008, 14:10
approx 80 hours, my mate who has it has had it since about 40, and re's very religious about oil changes and air filters. eg: he's not doing the world's oil supply any favours.
im beginning to think maybe something in the bottom end or maybe piston or something, even with the plug out its not easy to turn over, but then i dont know how hard to turn over its meant to be and the other CRF here currently has no oil in it and im waiting on a oil filter to arrive (ahem) . so i cant comapare it.
slimjim
10th September 2008, 14:20
pull down... doesn't matter anymore trying to find.. as its only gona get fixed by .. pulling apart.. update too please as my eldest boy is looking at one too.. secondhand however he's been told that its had a rebuild...not bought it yet... as been used at woodville next week..
B0000M
10th September 2008, 15:09
yea thats the next step, and the step i was hoping to avoid.
barty5
10th September 2008, 17:56
approx 80 hours, my mate who has it has had it since about 40, and re's very religious about oil changes and air filters. eg: he's not doing the world's oil supply any favours.
im beginning to think maybe something in the bottom end or maybe piston or something, even with the plug out its not easy to turn over, but then i dont know how hard to turn over its meant to be and the other CRF here currently has no oil in it and im waiting on a oil filter to arrive (ahem) . so i cant comapare it.
should be able to turn over easy with no plug in it something must be bound up. Pull it appart.
telliman
10th September 2008, 18:17
faaark, mines done exacly the same thing abt an hour ago,guy at the shops pulling it apart tomorrow, he thinks its the crank!
cheese
10th September 2008, 19:29
Hot crank kit!
honda_power
10th September 2008, 19:37
faaark, mines done exacly the same thing abt an hour ago,guy at the shops pulling it apart tomorrow, he thinks its the crank!
shit... must be an issue with crfs :S... my 04 never had any problems, did 150 hours on one pistion! yet my 06 that is religiously maintained is allways breaking... must be luck of the draw. its gonna cost ya big if it is the crank.
4stroke
10th September 2008, 20:16
did ya check the water pump?
i service my crf religously, my 02 crf did round 300 hours and hardley gave a problem as with my 07 crf is up to 150 odd hours and the only real problem was the water pump, what your describing sounds very like what mine did.
telliman
10th September 2008, 20:22
did ya check the water pump?
i service my crf religously, my 02 crf did round 300 hours and hardley gave a problem as with my 07 crf is up to 150 odd hours and the only real problem was the water pump, what your describing sounds very like what mine did.
it had that sort of a smell to it!
it still started fine, still pulled fine, everything under excelleration felt normal, just had this clicky/rattle sound which speed up with the revs!
its only just done 100hrs.
theblacksmith
10th September 2008, 20:22
Are all the springs inside casing all good? Anything trapped between clutch and inner g/box casing or maybe other side.Shouldnt be stiff to turn with plug out.Have a look at an exploded diagram of the motor from your nearest honda dealer - you might be able to work out what is making the noise by studying it.Is the noise there when you turn engine by hand or only when motor is running? Was every gear engaging ok? Spose the ultimate is to take it to bits -but its good to investigate all possibles to save unescessary work just in case.Let us know how you's get on.
B0000M
10th September 2008, 22:15
its in bits now. bottom end feels perfect. not gearbox related as you can put the bike in gear, pull the clutch in and not move and everything in the gearbox will be stationary. - it still rattles in this situation.
not anything in the right side of crankcase - had everything there apart and checked,
not valves - clearences perfect, valves appear ok also from both sides
not camchain tensioner, working well
not cam bearings. no slop in there.
not cam, it turns nice and smooth
doesnt leave many things eh!
could be piston as it had crap inthe cylinder shortly before the noise came and the piston does have some wear on the skirt.
bore still has factory hone marks right round.
4stroke
10th September 2008, 22:33
its not the auto de comp mechanisum? the crfs get quite noisey if the idle to low too
B0000M
10th September 2008, 23:11
its not the auto de comp mechanisum? the crfs get quite noisey if the idle to low too
nope its sweet, and its right through the rev range.
crazyxr250rider
10th September 2008, 23:20
is the primary drive and clutch ring gear tight and in good condition???
B0000M
11th September 2008, 08:28
yea, like ive said, everything inside the right cover is perfect looking and feeling
B0000M
11th September 2008, 08:30
aside from the piston having wear marks downb the skirts, i had a thought that if the piston is tilting in the bore, this would make it harder to turn over with or without the plug in, and with the piston out the crank turns easy as, so somewhere in the cylinder there is friction happening, as the cam turns easy buy itself - (when its not trying to push a valve) and the crank turns easy without the bore, so i think im on to something
any thoughts?
slimjim
11th September 2008, 08:35
does that model .. really have that amount of problems.. only ask as i've said my eldest is wanting to buy one... humm sorry almost buying one..i run an old IT , yes know its a two smoker.. however i'm not liking this only 180hour rebuild seen..:shit:
B0000M
11th September 2008, 08:41
i wouldnt let this put you off buying one.
this bike was up to its tank in salt water mud, and it got in through the exaust.
this is the first problem he's had since owning it and its pretty much self induced
my mrs also has a CRF250x, no problems
heaps of my mates have 04s and 05s, no problems
telliman
11th September 2008, 14:34
my piston skirt cracked and tilted and has shat the barrell, also a bit of play in the conrod so new kit as well as new barrel and piston!
am awaiting the painfull part!$$$
B0000M
11th September 2008, 14:43
ouch, thats not going to be cheap.
so glad i own a 2 stroke, nice long piston, id like to see that fucker tilt! :headbang:
cheese
11th September 2008, 14:58
Hmm my final sugestion is to try the bigger hammer.
My god long live 2 strokes!!
telliman
11th September 2008, 15:56
should have followed my instincts and got piston done and freashend up when i got it, will put it down to a leason well learned!
on the bright side ill have a brand new motor next week!
suspension will have to wait.
B0000M
11th September 2008, 15:57
im just hoping for my mate's sake that this is the problem and not something else
crazyxr250rider
11th September 2008, 16:56
If its not the primary drive or clutch it sounds like your describing severe piston slap, also check the Little end for play...
telliman
11th September 2008, 18:18
$2200 all up!
oouueeeech!
crazyxr250rider
11th September 2008, 18:33
I did 2 Full engine rebuilds for less than that....
theblacksmith
11th September 2008, 23:18
aside from the piston having wear marks downb the skirts, i had a thought that if the piston is tilting in the bore, this would make it harder to turn over with or without the plug in, and with the piston out the crank turns easy as, so somewhere in the cylinder there is friction happening, as the cam turns easy buy itself - (when its not trying to push a valve) and the crank turns easy without the bore, so i think im on to something
any thoughts?
Hmmm - piston slap/tilt??Makes sense if its right through the rev range. The bore is all good you say? Hopefully youve pulled it apart before it was to late.
theblacksmith
11th September 2008, 23:22
aside from the piston having wear marks downb the skirts, i had a thought that if the piston is tilting in the bore, this would make it harder to turn over with or without the plug in, and with the piston out the crank turns easy as, so somewhere in the cylinder there is friction happening, as the cam turns easy buy itself - (when its not trying to push a valve) and the crank turns easy without the bore, so i think im on to something
any thoughts?
$2200 all up!
oouueeeech!
Oh dear! I think thats what I paid for my KDX all up.
B0000M
12th September 2008, 07:30
just playing with the pieces in my hands last nite, i can make the piston wobble in the bore on the axis that it shouldnt and make it rattle like that, so if i can make it rattle by hand im sure it could make itself rattle with compression and a conrod pushing and pulling it from side to side as they do.
heres hoping it this top end rebuild fixes the issue. if its not that i dont know what it is,
also checked the oil pump last night and all lines, all is well ther short of splitting the case and visually checking the pump but its a mechanical gear-meshing type of oil pump so theres not much that can go wrong there if its still turning - if something had gone wrong in there it wouldve stripped the plastic drive gear for the oil pump before it did anything else - which it hasnt.
kezzafish
12th September 2008, 10:19
You're on to it mate, piston will be it. Well done and your mate owes you big time for saving it
xwhatsit
12th September 2008, 11:40
If the piston is wobbling around in the bore then that must be it -- you reckon you did it when you filled the bike up with mud?
If so, time to get the plastigauge out and check cam bearings, check little end/big end, all of those kinds of things. Save something more expensive later :)
B0000M
13th September 2008, 01:03
new top end in earlier, still knocks. doesnt seem to be geting worse, he's guna ride it on sunday anyway and see what happens
crazyxr250rider
14th September 2008, 19:20
Did you check the Little end for wear???Could it be the Big End????????Are you just being paranoid about a noise that isnt there????Does The rattle go away when you put your hand over the clutch cover???
B0000M
14th September 2008, 22:09
we reckon we've found it - the bearing inside the right side cover on the shaft goes through to the oil pump, got heaps of slop in it.
the bike got ridden for a few hours today at the pumice blast and hasnt got significantly louder.
something to do this week
Taz
15th September 2008, 07:57
my piston skirt cracked and tilted and has shat the barrell, also a bit of play in the conrod so new kit as well as new barrel and piston!
am awaiting the painfull part!$$$
Get the big bore kit for it. 280cc Both Eurobike (Atthena) or Whites do them for around $1100. Thats piston, rings, gaskets, pins, clips etc Whites also do aftermarket standard barrels for $495.
vr4king
15th September 2008, 12:10
Good idea i rode one the other day a 280 that is,man all power all down low can chug out off anything
crazyxr250rider
16th September 2008, 20:24
You said you cheecked every bearing in the right cover.........I guess not.
B0000M
16th September 2008, 20:35
well heres the thing, i left that side up to the owner of the bike, i took it apart, he looked at it while i was doing something else....
richyrich
18th September 2008, 22:33
my piston skirt cracked and tilted and has shat the barrell, also a bit of play in the conrod so new kit as well as new barrel and piston!
am awaiting the painfull part!$$$
hi all,my son had his 04 shit itself with a collapsed big end,no warning.
i bought new crank from states thumpertalk oem(about 180 us)plus complete topend inc inlet valves quite reasonable and rebuilt motor myself.very easy
motor to work on once you get it out of the frame.
telliman
19th September 2008, 06:23
yeah, iv been into the shop a couple of times this week to look and have been reading heaps in my work manual and am not so scared by the inside of a 4t any more!
B0000M
22nd September 2008, 19:05
ok, so we replaced the shitty bearing on the balance shaft- still rattles.
any more ideas before we split the cases?
barty5
22nd September 2008, 19:48
ok, so we replaced the shitty bearing on the balance shaft- still rattles.
any more ideas before we split the cases?
possible the other bearing on the other side of balance shaft is just as rooted load would have transfered ova to it from the one you have already done.
B0000M
22nd September 2008, 20:10
possible the other bearing on the other side of balance shaft is just as rooted load would have transfered ova to it from the one you have already done.
nope, it feels good and wasnt subjected to shit gritty shit oil that the other one was. took the shaft right out to do the bearing.
B0000M
23rd September 2008, 21:18
progress has been made, ran the bike for a couple of seconds today with the gear that is on the balance shaft which connects to the primary drive off- rattle gone.
this is the shaft that DID have the shitty bearing.
turns out the bearing being chewed out with so much play has caused the balance shaft to move around a bit which in turn makes its gear not mate properly with the primary drive gear- therefore hooking the teeth slightly making for a sloppy mesh, making a massive rattle.
now just waiting on prices for new primary drive and balance shaft gear (32t)
kezzafish
23rd September 2008, 22:59
Man... what a palava. well done
cheese
25th September 2008, 20:39
That will be expensive!
xwhatsit
25th September 2008, 20:53
Are sloppily-meshing PD gears that big an issue? Hell, people used to use chains for years. Now it's properly aligned is it that much of an issue that there's a bit of play in the gears? Sure there'll be drive-train lash, but that's not the end of the world off-road?
Unless, of course, by having a bit of lash in the gears you're likely to have catastrophic failure later on.
B0000M
25th September 2008, 21:46
its not likely to do anything any favours- but at the same time id say it has probably at least another 20 safe running hours..
sounds shit as tho
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