Power Commanders

[1vanvan1]

I'm looking at getting a power commander for my bike.

Just wondering if anyone else has one on theres. And is there a noticable difference to the power delivery?

[Pussy]

I'm looking at getting a power commander for my bike.

Just wondering if anyone else has one on theres. And is there a noticable difference to the power delivery?

Yes, there is a big difference in power delivery. I had one on a K4 GSX-R1000.
To get the benefit from a power commander, you will have to shell out approx $500.00 and get a custom map done. There are several Dyno-Jet tuning centres around the country. I have only used Gary Pendleton in Tauranga, and he does a superb job

[1vanvan1]

Yeah, There is one on trademe for $150 for my year of bike.

It has all the cables and stuff.

So i would have to get a map made for it?

Im not exactly mechanically minded with these sorts of things.

[Cajun]

$150 for it is good buying they are around $500-$600 new

You can download a map from the net, and upload it to thats a good sarting point

but for best use you need a custom map, there is a couple of people in akl amps, etc, that can do this for you you should budjet about $500 for this

Putting a pc3 on smooths out the curve, and will help remove any dips in it that often come stock.

For 150 i would buy and throw it on, and map it at a later stage

[Pussy]

When one of the tuning centres does the job, the power commander is set to make fuelling changes every 250 rpm, with 10 different throttle positions every 250 rpm as well. I thought I had a pretty good map in my power commander (it was a map for the mods I had on my bike), and didn't think Gary could make it much better. I was wrong! Felt like a different bike after the custom mapping

[1vanvan1]

So you are saying it will cost $500 to get someone to make me a custom map?

The one i am looking at is a pc3. Does it come with maps on it?

[The Stranger]

I'm looking at getting a power commander for my bike.

Just wondering if anyone else has one on theres. And is there a noticable difference to the power delivery?

I have one on both my bikes.
Even with just the PC alone the Fazer picked up 5hp peak but also gained right across the rev range.
The XT picked up a whole 2.5hp peak, however peak was not what I was mainly after, it picked up between 2 and 3hp right through the entire rev range, which is actually better than I had expected.

If you are a member of a forum you may be able to get a map that is close enough to get you by, but I also would recommend you have your bike custom mapped.
Last 2 of mine were done at Henderson Motorcycles and cost less than $300.00 each.

[1vanvan1]

If you are a member of a forum you may be able to get a map that is close enough to get you by, but I also would recommend you have your bike custom mapped. .

So does that mean I could find someone else with a map for a 03 CBR600RR and use that?

The one on trademe im looking at says it is for a 03-04 CBR600RR so would that mean it has a map i can use?

[Pussy]

It will have a map you can USE, or you can download one, but the best result is have it custom mapped for your bike

[1vanvan1]

Ok i see. Thanks

[The Stranger]

So does that mean I could find someone else with a map for a 03 CBR600RR and use that?

The one on trademe im looking at says it is for a 03-04 CBR600RR so would that mean it has a map i can use?

There are a lot of ifs.

If you find somone from overseas with a map and use that, you will not know for sure if it is tha same model, many bikes have differences to the computers etc between models made for different countries.

When you look at the maps available on the Fazer and the XT forums they are all remarkably similar world over, which gives a pretty good indicator that there is not a great deal of difference country to country. But you can't just assume.

What was the state of tune of their bike?
Where did they get their map from?
We recently had injectors tested from 2 identical make/model/year bikes and found about 12% difference in the flow rates, so it is not likely that even if the state of tune is identical that the map will be optimal. Though it may well be usable.

A zero map will give you standard fueling, so should be 100% safe, so there is always that option as an interim measure. You could pick a conservative map (from a group of similarly tuned bikes of the same model) and use that also. You would likely see some gain from that.

But - you will definately see best gains only when it is custom mapped.

[1vanvan1]

Cool, I had a look on the power commander site.

They have maps for my year and model bike with lotsa dif mods.

Like they have my bike, my year, with a micron sip on. So i thought it would be best just to use that?

[Cajun]

Cool, I had a look on the power commander site.

They have maps for my year and model bike with lotsa dif mods.

Like they have my bike, my year, with a micron sip on. So i thought it would be best just to use that?

yep start with that, be a good place to start. it be good just not perfect

often its a good idea to use a europan map than a usa map (they use total different fuel)

[1vanvan1]

yep start with that, be a good place to start. it be good just not perfect

often its a good idea to use a europan map than a usa map (they use total different fuel)

So we use similar fuel to European countries? I did read that somewhere but was unsure which one we would be.

[johan]

Basically a PCIII let you sort out a the air/fuel ratio by adding/subtracting fuel to the stock fuel map. As a result, you will most likely gain a few ponies, but more importantly, you make sure the engine isn't running lean, which most bike are from the factory (to meet emission standards etc).
Ask to see the air/fuel curve plotted from the dyno run. In general, a nice straight curve is good. Compare before/after fitting PC.

Don't be too fixated to the HP numbers. A good A/F tune first, then as a bonus, you'll see increased power output.

Also, when fitting after market exhausts, you're letting more air flow through the system, thus running the engine even more lean. The PC will once again let you add more fuel and make sure you're not running too lean.

[kiwifruit]

Do the suspension instead :chase:

[AllanB]

Do the suspension instead :chase:

Hmm nows thats a good idea afterall the engine is already making plenty of real road riding power.

[1vanvan1]

Basically a PCIII let you sort out a the air/fuel ratio by adding/subtracting fuel to the stock fuel map. As a result, you will most likely gain a few ponies, but more importantly, you make sure the engine isn't running lean, which most bike are from the factory (to meet emission standards etc).
Ask to see the air/fuel curve plotted from the dyno run. In general, a nice straight curve is good. Compare before/after fitting PC.

Don't be too fixated to the HP numbers. A good A/F tune first, then as a bonus, you'll see increased power output.

Also, when fitting after market exhausts, you're letting more air flow through the system, thus running the engine even more lean. The PC will once again let you add more fuel and make sure you're not running too lean.

You've confused me now .... So what you are saying is I can change the map?

[saul]

Get it do some research play around with maps :niceone: great fun.

Do you need it ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm:devil2:

[Pussy]

You've confused me now .... So what you are saying is I can change the map?
Yes you can change the maps... a two minute job if you have a laptop

[johan]

You've confused me now .... So what you are saying is I can change the map?

Sure, you can change the map, you can have my Ducati map for your bike if you want, but it's not going to do you much good.
It's just numbers, add or subtract fuel at different revs and throttle positions, as other stated.
You tune (or create a new custom map) with a dyno by measuring the A/F ratio, among other things.

[Pussy]

Yes you can change the maps... a two minute job if you have a laptop


For instance: I still have a copy of the map for a K3-K4 GSX-R1000...Aussie spec, K&N filter, Yoshimura RS3 muffler, 95 octane fuel

AND K5 SV650S, Aussie spec, K&N filter, full yoshimura race baffle exhaust, 91 octane fuel

These maps can be installed in the respective power commanders in a couple of minutes with a USB cable

[johan]

Check this out:
http://home.comcast.net/~k5shawn/sti/dynosm.jpg

The bottom graph is the A/F ratio, this one is running very rich. The ideal mixture is like the dotted red line. The PC let you tune this. But you need a dyno to really know what changes different maps do.

[breakaway]

So can you shift fuel maps from bike to bike (Same year / model of course) and it is still an optimal tune?

[The Stranger]

Do the suspension instead :chase:

This man speaks the truth!

However, you don't get a lot of suspension mods for $150.00.

[The Stranger]

So can you shift fuel maps from bike to bike (Same year / model of course) and it is still an optimal tune?

Yes you can shift maps from bike to bike.
But they are unlikely to be optimal - see post 11 for some reasons why not.
That is of course even ignoring arguments as to what constitutes optimal and how you arive at it.

[davereid]

Fuel injection is not that complicated, except its hellishly complicated.

Here is how it works.

For any given amount of petrol, you need a precise amount of air (oxygen) to burn it.

If you have too much petrol, some of it won't burn as there is no oxygen.

You wasted space in your cylinder, filling it up with petrol that you could not burn and you had to waste (out the exhaust).

Same happens in reverse.

If you have too much air, you have wasted energy by filling your engine with air, that won't explode, making power.

Your engine makes the most power when the match is perfect.

But, the explosive mixture takes a finite time to burn.

And that time changes with rpm, compression, fuel quality (octane), air pressure, valve timing and engine design.

So, while it is possible to calculate, guess or copy the ideal mixture for your engine, you get better results by test-and-measurement.

Thats what mapping is. Just telling the computer how much fuel and air gives the best result for each setting of rpm and throttle.

And when to "light the fire" if your fuel injection system also controls spark.

[bikerboy011]

Am saving up for one cost 600$ new, 150 thats cheap as.

[johan]

Fuel injection is not that complicated, except its hellishly complicated.

Here is how it works...
..
..
..


That's a pretty good explanation! :niceone:

[breakaway]

So why does it take authorised and 'experienced' guys to tune it? If all it is is just changing some figures at a laptop, shouldn't anyone with half a clue be able to sort it?

[The Stranger]

So why does it take authorised and 'experienced' guys to tune it? If all it is is just changing some figures at a laptop, shouldn't anyone with half a clue be able to sort it?

Changing the figures is the easy part. What you change them to is a little more involved.

[Pussy]

It's done on a rolling road/brake dyno, in conjunction with an exhaust gas analyser. As previously mentioned, the end result is adjustments in fuelling for every 250 rpm, and ten throttle positions for each of those 250 rpm. It takes a few hours. Best results obtained by bike specific custom mapping. In my opinion, it's worth it (and, Kiwifruit, I've already done my suspension :bleh:).
You end up with a VERY chrisp fuel efficient engine

[dipshit]

So why does it take authorised and 'experienced' guys to tune it? If all it is is just changing some figures at a laptop, shouldn't anyone with half a clue be able to sort it?

So hows you going to know what to change the numbers to..? :corn:

[breakaway]

Change it and see if it runs like shit or not? Or is it not quite that simple?

[imdying]

So why does it take authorised and 'experienced' guys to tune it? If all it is is just changing some figures at a laptop, shouldn't anyone with half a clue be able to sort it?
Ahhh, and in there is the rub ;)

What are you going to change those numbers to?

Even with a wide band oxygen sensor (or something more complicated like a 4 gas analyser), there's only so much you can do.... people have indicated that you're looking for an essentially flat AFR across the range... but that's not entirely true. Due to resonance and other exciting things that affect cylinder filling, some places in the map are better off a little richer or a little leaner than stoich. And that's the difference between someone who can operate a Dynojet link dyno, and a good tuner that can improve on the map that the dyno generates somewhat automatically. In fact, a good tuner doesn't even need a dynojet dyno, they can use any dyno.

But yes, anyone with a laptop can make and/or adjust their own map.

A PCIII without a tuned map is a bit of a waste of time.

[The Stranger]

Change it and see if it runs like shit or not? Or is it not quite that simple?

Definately not that simple.
Though I have adjusted mine in that fashion in a few areas to achieve specific goals - for example maximum top end speed on the XT.

[imdying]

Change it and see if it runs like shit or not? Or is it not quite that simple?Not quite, the adjustments are often more subtle than that. Here's a scenario... it feels stronger in the top end... have you improved the top end, or reduced the midrange which makes the top end feel stronger?

A lot of time with a data logger and you could do it... but it's easier and cheaper to get it done by a tuner with a dyno.

[Pussy]

Change it and see if it runs like shit or not? Or is it not quite that simple?


Stranger, dipshit, imdying and myself have tried to explain it... the answers are there

[imdying]

Read Stranger's post... if offers some good insight on some of the gotchas with using other peoples maps that aren't initially apparent.

[Gremlin]

A Powercommander plugs into your wiring between the ECU and the engine. All it does is change the commands sent by the ECU (according to the map) to the engine.

ie, if you have a look at a map, it has a series of numbers, positive or negative, so it takes input from ecu at x, adjusts by number in table, and sends output y to the engine.

There are different models for different bikes because the wiring has different plugs (and there are several cables). Plug from ecu gets plugged into PC, and there is a corresponding plug on PC that plugs in where the ecu used to.

If the PC is a usb one its easiest, as you plug any laptop in with usb, use the PC software, and you can change the map yourself. I have two custom maps for my zx10, one for baffle, one without, and I can change when I like. As others have said, you can make your own map, but you have to know how to change the numbers (where the dyno comes in).