Incompetence by NZ police re: death of officer.

[skidMark]

Okay so you have probably all heard/ read the news, an undercover police officer shot and killed, they were putting a tracking device on a car outside a suspected P lab.

R.I.P

Now.

Onto serious business, because this should not have happened, this is not an attention troll, i just think this in unacceptable...

Full story here

http://msn.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10531786&ref=rss

But here are some bits i took from it...(word for word)

"Clearly it's an absolute tragedy for us to lose an officer and have another seriously threatened," said Superintendent Ted Cox, head of the Auckland metropolitan crime and operations support unit.
"If we knew there were weapons in the house, we would have approached it entirely differently."

So... they were putting a tracking device on a car, outside a suspected P (methamphetamine/crystal meth) Lab, in South Auckland... Yet they didn't think shit, they might have guns?

With probably half a mil of P in the lab (if it was a lab) of course they are going to have bloodey guns!!!

With this being said that they didn't know thier were guns (in not so many words)...

This is also in the artical...

The men were unarmed and didn't have bullet-proof vests. The man who survived - whose name has been suppressed by a judge - was wearing stab-resistant body armour.
However, armed back-up was just one block away.

So... Hang on...

They did not suspect weapons? Yet had armed backup just one block away?

If they wernt expecting guns and they would have handled it entirely differently if they had known weapons were involved then why have the armed back-up a block away?

Just incase?

Well that plan obviously didn't work did it, and now an officer has lost his life, for what, incompetency of others he worked with perhaps?

You can't say "if we knew there were weapons we would have handled this entirely differently"

then say "armed back-up was just a block away"

they obviously knew thier was risk becuase they had backup in the next block, i just think this doesn't add up, and somebody has been killed for what, not taking the proper precautions?

I'm lost for words beyond this point.:mad:

Lets keep this civil.

Skid.

[MIXONE]

How's about we wait for the entire story to come out before passing judgement.

[skidMark]

How's about we wait for the entire story to come out before passing judgement.


Well it is the main media report, and the excerpts are those that are direct quotes from a senior member of the NZ police, how much more entire story do you need?

[Badjelly]

You're absolutely right, skiddy. What a pity you weren't running the operation.

[Oakie]

How's about we wait for the entire story to come out before passing judgement.

+1
Poor cops. They shoot someone and they're murderous bastards ... they get shot and they're incompetant. Can't win huh!

[Crasherfromwayback]

The officer. What a thankless job. And to lose your life doing it is tragic.

BUT, I am surprised they weren't armed. These guys (the 'cooks' etc) play for keeps. Huge money involved, and if they're off their tits on their goods, highly unpredictable to boot.

[slimjim]

"p".fuck you can text for it.. yup ..you'll find it in any middleschools.high schools.private schools,and yup school kids have alot of dosh, so it follows were the money is, on street corners,in the lounge room of any pub, any club, any almost kiwi home, however its been told nearly 10yrs back by Hawaii officals that it was running a muck over there and was now been tracked in new zealand,
aren't a gangers drug anymore ,its midddle class lower class and high class enjoyment kick.. fuck even Minne Holmes was selling it..note how many blackpower..mongel mob..highway 61, fiflthy few, hells angles are getting busted.. None.. cause its every day kiwis that are making it and selling it and using it...gone way pass the "gang" drug.. And the Goverment is well aware as are the police.. however its a drug thats taken hold so now its gota be hit harder than undercover . Swat members crashing in film it and keep filming them hitting "p" houses and then see whats the norm

O wait Stranger Things to come

[Quasievil]

"p".fuck you can text for it.. yup ..you'll find it in any middleschools.high schools.private schools,and yup school kids have alot of dosh, so it follows were the money is, on street corners,in the lounge room of any pub, any club, any almost kiwi home, however its been told nearly 10yrs back by Hawaii officals that it was running a muck over there and was now been tracked in new zealand,
aren't a gangers drug anymore ,its midddle class lower class and high class enjoyment kick.. fuck even Minne Holmes was selling it..note how many blackpower..mongel mob..highway 61, fiflthy few, hells angles are getting busted.. None.. cause its every day kiwis that are making it and selling it and using it...gone way pass the "gang" drug.. And the Goverment is well aware as are the police.. however its a drug thats taken hold so now its gota be hit harder than undercover . Swat members crashing in film it and keep filming them hitting "p" houses and then see whats the norm

O wait Stranger Things to come


Thats bang on and makes it especially fucking scary for those of us with Kids, Im shitting myself about it.

[Tank]

First Skidmark - this is a really emotive topic - I dont know what the hell they fed you down the S/I, you raised it in about as nice way possible for REASONABLE discussion. (what happened to the Skiddy of old?).

Like every normal person - Im sick to my very core that a officer was killed.

Im sure that all the information will come out in time - and until then we cannot assume too much, but I must say that I was suprised that the officers were not armed. But we have to remember that is our civilian view of the matter.

The officers involved are professionals and they deal with this scum day in, day out. Even tho' the decisions made may look stupid and obvious to us, the police (having the benefit of far more exprience and inforamtion) are making the decision based on a far more informed level.

They take this kind of work seriously - there is NO WAY that they would not have sat down, planned, done a risk assessment and come to the decisions that they did. Unfortuantley they were in this instance wrong.

RIP to the officer, his family, friends and co-workers.

[fire eyes]

A "p" thread would be really interesting to have actually .. Iv said my peace about the police stuff and definite consideration needed for the family of the officer ... I dont actually not know anyone personally who does 'p' .. I could be blinded by that fact though .. just because I don't think they are doesnt mean its not happening eh .. regardless of that fact ... yes .. its our kids at risk.

[slimjim]

Want a Shock. the Teenagers There Don't pipe it in private, Nope they are able to light up on the tables for lunch.. and this is well knowen BY teachers,Parents,Police... NOpe Sorry very well to do School too... But its A everyday Thing...And This is from .. second eldest..now working..next youngest is 16yrs and her an her friends talk openly with Me about the going on's.. Fuck i really thought i was bad while been a "member" many yr ago.. however i'll not ever want to be her age now.. an all i can offer them.... Nope cann't tell them what not to do... Thats their understanding of their choice.. and they know of "their choices.. but sit and listen.. and solution's .. cause i don't have any..

[Quasievil]

and solution's .. cause i don't have any..

I do mate, if convicted selling or making P, 20 years in Prison, end of story.
If we are serious about it why fuck around.

[slimjim]

I do mate, if convicted selling or making P, 20 years in Prison, end of story.
If we are serious about it why fuck around.


humm yes and truely....How Many 13yr's would you like to see coming out at 33yr with twenty's yrs of.. inside training..FUCK NOT ME..and truely..its not a colour issues..its a easy at making it..getting it..

fourty eight bucks it cost roughly..... takes 7hours and its boiled and ready for sale.. "p" ..done..
out of that the return is nearly..$440.00 cost of a life.. huumm

sorry but prison... only supplies extra people on the outside to make more of it..

[AllanB]

As per usual the media is on a witch hunt. The only people to blame are the sickos who came out and shot the cops.

Its a worry that you could possibly be in the position where you see a tidy vehicle parked on the side of the road and bend down to check out the wheels. Then get shot as its owned by some arse in the house who is running a P lab and thinks you are a threat.


Better watch out where you are Skid - the might be a few "crops" out there this summer.

[Quasievil]

humm yes and truely....How Many 13yr's would you like to see coming out at 33yr with twenty's yrs of..

Not Many because once you lock up a few then they would get the idea, and if that dont work make it 40 years, if that dont work start hanging them, they would soon get the idea, whats the alternative, continue down the PC low impact solutions that arent working today?
Harsh penalties is whats needed, example, whats the Drug problem like in Singapore these days???

[fire eyes]

humm yes and truely....How Many 13yr's would you like to see coming out at 33yr with twenty's yrs of.. inside training..FUCK NOT ME..and truely..its not a colour issues..its a easy at making it..getting it..

fourty eight bucks it cost roughly..... takes 7hours and its boiled and ready for sale.. "p" ..done..
out of that the return is nearly..$440.00 cost of a life.. huumm

sorry but prison... only supplies extra people on the outside to make more of it..

fkn hell yea?? Im pretty sheltered reading all your shit in here slimjim .. my eldest is almost 13 off to high school next year .. shes already been in trouble .. moved her down to welly to get away from these Urutaha arses (urutaha - dumb wanna be youth gang, offspring of black power) shes not allowed contact with any former friends here ... long bloody story .. but its scary alright ..

[sAsLEX]

+1
Poor cops. They shoot someone and they're murderous bastards ... they get shot and they're incompetant. Can't win huh!

NZ and its infamous tall poppy syndrome strikes again.



Im sure that all the information will come out in time - and until then we cannot assume too much, but I must say that I was suprised that the officers were not armed. But we have to remember that is our civilian view of the matter.


I have to ask why one was in a stab proof vest and the other not? and from a report I heard on the news it was only a high end air rifle? Any decent bullet proof vest would of stopped that.

[fire eyes]

I really like the idea of boot camp .. ok Im not keen on kids being subjected to cruel or inhumane shit .. but discipline .. survival skills etc being out of the cities and given a chance to experience something different I feel would be awesome ..

[slimjim]

No maybe to Rego all compoments of the mix of "p' (sorry about spellin0 my bad...
but if as they do to paintcans.. make the cocktail of chemicals going in to batch it...you need to sign for .... and yes it can be done.. Cause it can be passed by law... Reckon the goverment has got the "balls"..to make Shop Owners .. More in line of what they are selling off the shelve.. Doing it with Chemist shops.. do it to the local hardware shop..thats the real sauce.. import some yes is getting through.. however most is made locally..... locally you go down to a few shop's buy what to mix... thats it make who where needs that certain product...Signs for it.. data placed on computer .. instant recall if too many times they have brought certain products..

[98tls]

I do mate, if convicted selling or making P, 20 years in Prison, end of story.
If we are serious about it why fuck around. I think thats the problem mate,look at drink driving for instance,the cops take it seriously the public by and large do to but those that decide the punishment for such offenders dont.By the time someone actually has there day in court theres an army of dogooders there with them ensuring as least a punishment as possible.If someone can make huge dosh for a year or 2 then if unlucky enough to get caught only gets banged up for 3 years (only does 2/3rds) then probably figures its worth it.

[avgas]

fuck tazers - give em limb removing chainsaws.
that'll sort the crims out

[turtleman]

"Clearly it's an absolute tragedy for us to lose an officer and have another seriously threatened," said Superintendent Ted Cox, head of the Auckland metropolitan crime and operations support unit.
"If we knew there were weapons in the house, we would have approached it entirely differently."

So... they were putting a tracking device on a car, outside a suspected P (methamphetamine/crystal meth) Lab, in South Auckland... Yet they didn't think shit, they might have guns?

...

Stop putting things in between the lines that aren't there. At no time in that report did it state it was a "suspected P Lab" as you state. The words used were "They were targeting a property they believed had links to P when things went horribly wrong."
They could have been suppliers, users... anything.

[CookMySock]

We can't change the world. Theres also little or no point getting half of the sites' members wound up against the other half - abusing each other, for an issue that we can't control, AND doesn't physically affect us.

I sense the injustice of it just like you do, but its controlling us. I've had a think since I posted about this last - why can't we just go ride our bikes and drink piss instead of getting all wound up about this crap. We can't change it.

I just had a great ride into town and back - the long windy way. It was awesome. I forgot all about the bickering. I met a couple of other bikers and we greeted each other in the traditional manner. Awesome!

Steve

[Rollestonchick]

RIP mr:Police:

[Daffyd]

I saw on the news that the police were calling for a ban on 'high end' air rifles 'cos that was what was used. And at the same time they showed a pic of what appeared to be a .22 bullet!
Someone needs to brush up on their facts.

[firefighter]

I do mate, if convicted selling or making P, 20 years in Prison, end of story.
If we are serious about it why fuck around.

how about snipping some digits? And upon conviction after the finger chopping ceremony you officially lose all rights to ANY form of Dole, DPB etcetc- now thats sensible sentencing!(that is on top of the 20 of course!)

[R6_kid]

Occupational Safety and Health will be having fits over this!

[jim.cox]

Theres also little or no point getting half of the sites' members wound up against the other half - abusing each other,


But that's at least half the fun of KB....

[Patrick]

I have to ask why one was in a stab proof vest and the other not? and from a report I heard on the news it was only a high end air rifle? Any decent bullet proof vest would of stopped that.

A covert vest... not the same as the blue ones you see on the uniforms..., still might not have made much of a difference. They are stab proof vests, not bullet proof, but do have some bullet proofing capability.

Unsure where the wounded one was shot. The other was shot in the chest / heart region.

The bullet proof vests are massive, bulky, obviously "Police" equipment - pointless for a covert operation. Unlike the ones you see in the movies, and are available - but not to the NZ Police it seems......


I sense the injustice of it just like you do, but its controlling us. I've had a think since I posted about this last -

Your best post on this topic...

Skidmarks 1st post here and DB in the other thread seem to be saying the same thing. Are you two one and the same??????

If not, perhaps this thread can be merged with the other and Skiddy can read about it there.....

[Tank]

OK - OK - DB - I know I often post just to wind you up - but I am being sincere in this reply - and its not actually aimed at you.


why can't we just go ride our bikes and drink piss instead of getting all wound up about this crap. We can't change it.


Everyone NEEDS to get wound up about this kind of thing. We need to be angry. We REALLY need to give a shit.

We NEED to start making stands. We have all become so 'meh' about so many things that it leads to the continuing decline of moral values, and society.

Years ago - the murder of a policeman would have stopped the country. Today people say 'sad - but he should have had a vest on' etc etc.

I find it incredibly frustrating just how few people give the shits about so many things that are happening unless its happening to them or their family.

[shafty]

Not Many because once you lock up a few then they would get the idea, and if that dont work make it 40 years, if that dont work start hanging them, they would soon get the idea, whats the alternative, continue down the PC low impact solutions that arent working today?
Harsh penalties is whats needed, example, whats the Drug problem like in Singapore these days???

Spot on Quasi; I personally believe we should "contract " out our prison services to somewhere like Singapore......

[sAsLEX]

The bullet proof vests are massive, bulky, obviously "Police" equipment - pointless for a covert operation. Unlike the ones you see in the movies, and are available - but not to the NZ Police it seems......


Yet we always seem to have enough money to pour into the enlarging black hole that is social welfare?

Weird isn't it?

Thanks Labour.


edit: oh look they are a whooping 600 bucks US http://www.anti-ballistic.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=153

[Mr Merde]

A covert vest... not the same as the blue ones you see on the uniforms..., still might not have made much of a difference. They are stab proof vests, not bullet proof, but do have some bullet proofing capability.

Unsure where the wounded one was shot. The other was shot in the chest / heart region.

The bullet proof vests are massive, bulky, obviously "Police" equipment - pointless for a covert operation. Unlike the ones you see in the movies, and are available - but not to the NZ Police it seems......



Your best post on this topic...

Skidmarks 1st post here and DB in the other thread seem to be saying the same thing. Are you two one and the same??????

If not, perhaps this thread can be merged with the other and Skiddy can read about it there.....


Are you not allowed equipment such as the "Second Chance" clothing?

Friend of mine took a 9mm to his side whilst wearing one of their lightweight undershirt T Shirts. Lots of bruising but no penetration, hence my mate still being around to talk about it.

Richard Davis used to make a show of holding a .44 mag to his stomache and pulling the trigger. His only allowance to comfort was some padding to save the bruises

[Patrick]

Are you not allowed equipment such as the "Second Chance" clothing?

Dept can be funny about non NZ Police issue uniform items.... Some fork out for things like this from their own pockets from the States, but I believe the Dept should pay for it, being the good employer, making the work site safe for their staff, and all that sort of thing....
:shutup:

[sAsLEX]

Dept can be funny about non NZ Police issue uniform items.... Some fork out for things like this from their own pockets from the States, but I believe the Dept should pay for it, being the good employer, making the work site safe for their staff, and all that sort of thing....
:shutup:

Happens in all Govt. depts.

We are always supplementing issue equipment with our own as they don't want to pay an extra dollar, yet they use suppliers that are known to be the most expensive around go figure?

[Mr Merde]

Dept can be funny about non NZ Police issue uniform items.... Some fork out for things like this from their own pockets from the States, but I believe the Dept should pay for it, being the good employer, making the work site safe for their staff, and all that sort of thing....
:shutup:

I thoroughly agree with you here. These products really do work and best of all they are not bulky or uncomfortable to wear.

Met Richard Davis in the UK once. He is passionate about his product and the lives his product saves.

Penny pinching government officials who would rather spend their budget making themselves look good rather than where it would really matter.

===============
David Sellars
david @ emeraldinternational.com.au
+61.400.754154 phone
Specializing in American Body Armor, Bianchi Body Armor, Protech Armored Products, Safariland ArmorWear, Second Chance Armor, Quikstep, Bianchi, Defense Technology, Hatch, Hiatt, Monadnock, Safariland Duty Gear, Armor Accessories, Armor Forensics and 911EP

Second Chance dealer for New Zealand
====================

[mstriumph]

.........The officers involved are professionals and they deal with this scum day in, day out. Even tho' the decisions made may look stupid and obvious to us, the police (having the benefit of far more exprience and inforamtion) are making the decision based on a far more informed level.

They take this kind of work seriously - there is NO WAY that they would not have sat down, planned, done a risk assessment and come to the decisions that they did. Unfortuantley they were in this instance wrong.

RIP to the officer, his family, friends and co-workers.

ditto that RIP and those condolances

But i reckon Skidmark is right - if things are as reported then it looks as though someone stuffed up
of course everyone does, sooner or later but it's sad if it gets someone killed and will be even sadder if some kind of whitewash is attempted later ....


not that i'm saying that it did or will be - but there's a lot in that report which doesn't seem logical ..............

[mstriumph]

.. ok Im not keen on kids being subjected to cruel or inhumane shit .. ......... well mine, no - MINE are angels of course ---- but other people's brats? burn em i say!!

[Quasievil]

Happens in all Govt. depts.

We are always supplementing issue equipment with our own as they don't want to pay an extra dollar,

but whats wrong with GUCCI and KY, its only the navy !!

sorry honestly I couldnt resist:wari:

[alanzs]

Condolences to the family of the extremely brave officer that died trying to protect the same people who have nothing better to do than dis him.
Shame on all those who have no respect for this guy who died trying to help us.
Shame.

[skidMark]

Stop putting things in between the lines that aren't there. At no time in that report did it state it was a "suspected P Lab" as you state. The words used were "They were targeting a property they believed had links to P when things went horribly wrong."
They could have been suppliers, users... anything.


News article had been severely chopped and changed since i posted the thread.

[skidMark]

how about snipping some digits? And upon conviction after the finger chopping ceremony you officially lose all rights to ANY form of Dole, DPB etcetc- now thats sensible sentencing!(that is on top of the 20 of course!)


so hang on now they have no dole money and cant get employment, so what are they going to do to fund themselves that worked before oh yeash, make drugs.

[skidMark]

Condolences to the family of the extremely brave officer that died trying to protect the same people who have nothing better to do than dis him.
Shame on all those who have no respect for this guy who died trying to help us.
Shame.

Did i at anytime whatsoever blame the officer who died, he was just fooling an order from his employer.

[sAsLEX]

but whats wrong with GUCCI and KY, its only the navy !!

sorry honestly I couldnt resist:wari:

At least its not the RN

[mazz1972]

I'm getting fed up of the crock of shit emotive reporting we are getting fed by the media, and it's steadily getting worse.

How many times last night I heard the operation referred to as a botch up. For chrissake these are experienced people making judgement calls, including the officer that was killed.

We only hear what the media want us to hear, and opinion is too quickly reported as fact.

I could not believe the way this story was reported on TV1 last night.

[Ocean1]

I'm getting fed up of the crock of shit emotive reporting we are getting fed by the media, and it's steadily getting worse.


You're STILL tuned in??!!

Hint: the adds are WAY more intrinsically accurate, just mute all that other crap in between.

[Pedrostt500]

Its time that the hard labour was put back into the prison system, turning big rocks into little rocks with the aid of a sledge hammer, and a quota to be filled by days end.

[scumdog]

Are you not allowed equipment such as the "Second Chance" clothing?

Friend of mine took a 9mm to his side whilst wearing one of their lightweight undershirt T Shirts. Lots of bruising but no penetration, hence my mate still being around to talk about it.

Richard Davis used to make a show of holding a .44 mag to his stomache and pulling the trigger. His only allowance to comfort was some padding to save the bruises

Seen that stuff, great product.

Sadly like a lot of 'safety' devices you would need to wear it EVERY day at work for it to be of any use.

I guess the dead dude had not anticipated such 'reaction' to his efforts...I know that in similar situation I think the same....

[Toaster]

... the Dept should pay for it, being the good employer, making the work site safe for their staff, and all that sort of thing....
:shutup:

(*cough! cough! splutter..........)

Better work stories huh? "Hey honey I got beat up and shot several times last night after my partner was murdered."

Those poor brave men and their familes, friends and collegues. So very very tragic.

[_Shrek_]

First Skidmark - this is a really emotive topic - I dont know what the hell they fed you down the S/I, you raised it in about as nice way possible for REASONABLE discussion. (what happened to the Skiddy of old?)

we got a hold of him Tank :rofl: taught him some colture & he went back up norf a changed man :wacko:

& as far as the scum bags who shot the cops, they should never have made it through to the next day unless it was to put down :mad:

RIP to the officer, his family, friends and co-workers

[sAsLEX]

Seen that stuff, great product.

Sadly like a lot of 'safety' devices you would need to wear it EVERY day at work for it to be of any use.

I guess the dead dude had not anticipated such 'reaction' to his efforts...I know that in similar situation I think the same....

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=91254&d=1207072129

[skidMark]

Quoted image removed


As funny as i usually find that picture of scumdog i do not think this is an appropriate thread to make laughable banter of him as a reply to his very serious genuine sincere post. :oi-grr:

[GurlRacer]

RIP Mate... thanks for being such a brave guy. A real hero to our young ones.

Can't we take a positive spin on this? While I agree with the other comments brought up here, I just need to add one or two points of my own. Because this has happened, and a big investigation set in motion... things will come out of this. Has anyone stopped to think how many more lives may be saved by this one guy? Maybe they will invest in bullet proof vests from now on. Although I hate to say it, NZ is not what it used to be. Although it sucks that he has passed, he hasn't died an ordinary man, and may help his friends and co-workers for the future. (And I speak from experience...!)

Our cops are great. I really value them. Yes they bug me sometimes, but they do a great job. And besides, everyone makes mistakes. Why is it, that when it is the police or a political leader that we are so judgemental? We as a nation are so critical to things that happen within these departements. I think we forget that, we too make big doozeys too.

But, RIP mate. Thank you.
And an even bigger thank you to all the cops that got up the next day to get back to work, working for us, working to make our country a better place. :)

[sAsLEX]

Our cops are great. I really value them. Yes they bug me sometimes, but they do a great job.

They do! And they make do with shit, absolute shit to be honest, resources!

But the politicians like their statistics to match their bleat for the week so we see them focussing on the vote gaining crimes rather than pure beat work....

Speed kills..... yip.......... so does absolute stupidity and laziness but you don't see us outlawing them!

[maybe]

I hope that none of the Officers families are members of this forum because it would piss me off to read some of the replies that have been posted.:argh:

[Katman]

I met a couple of other bikers and we greeted each other in the traditional manner.


The mind boggles.

[cruising]

things will come out of this. Has anyone stopped to think how many more lives may be saved by this one guy?

You are completely right in everything you said. Except why does a good honest bloke has to die before such obvious things are noticed?

I know hindsight 20/20 and all, but a few things are glaringly obvious as stated by many. They are outside a p house at 1.30am? Even your NORMAL household has people asleep at 1.30am. Wait a few hours maybe?

Didn't expect guns? At a drug house? Even if there wasn't a giant WE HAVE GUNS sign that hit them on the head, no one heard of erring on the side of caution?

Police officers running FROM crooks? Undercover, sure, but once discovered, why not just claim: WE ARE POLICE and pull out guns/tasers/start talking on radio making them aware that there are other cops around. From the thug's view, it must have just looked like a rival gang mucking about then cheesing it, so they gave chase and fired.

In any case, a good fellow needlessly dead and you can see a trail of sheer incompetence for miles.

I mean, didn't expect guns at a drug house, that really takes the cake. It's bloody frustrating how incompetent the whole bureaucracy is.

[scumdog]

You are completely right in everything you said. Except why does a good honest bloke has to die before such obvious things are noticed?

I know hindsight 20/20 and all, but a few things are glaringly obvious as stated by many. They are outside a p house at 1.30am? Even your NORMAL household has people asleep at 1.30am. Wait a few hours maybe?

Didn't expect guns? At a drug house? Even if there wasn't a giant WE HAVE GUNS sign that hit them on the head, no one heard of erring on the side of caution?

Police officers running FROM crooks? Undercover, sure, but once discovered, why not just claim: WE ARE POLICE and pull out guns/tasers/start talking on radio making them aware that there are other cops around. From the thug's view, it must have just looked like a rival gang mucking about then cheesing it, so they gave chase and fired.

In any case, a good fellow needlessly dead and you can see a trail of sheer incompetence for miles.

I mean, didn't expect guns at a drug house, that really takes the cake. It's bloody frustrating how incompetent the whole bureaucracy is.

A civilians simplistic take on the incident.

Understandable but flawed.

[alanzs]

A civilians simplistic take on the incident.

Understandable but flawed.

Your patience and understanding are an example of the professionalism of the police here. Not being a police officer, I would have said something like "You fucking idiot, what the fuck would you know about these things. SOMEONE DIED TRYING TO PROTECT YOU, YOU WORTHLESS TURD. If you don't think the police are doing a good enough job, then feel free to summon up the balls to make it better." Something like that... :shit:
Keep up the good work and be safe.

[Patrick]

Quoted image removed

sAsLEX is right... where is your body armour Scummy?????? Confronting potentially armed offenders at night like that..... Tsk tsk tsk....:innocent:

[Indoo]

Bollocks .

There are probably many reasons why it wasn't practical to arm themselves (ever tried sliding under a car with an m24 strapped to you while trying to be covert?), there are probably many reasons why they chose that time to target the address, there are probably many reasons why they didn't believe the occupants had ready access to firearms and would use them and theres probably also many reasons why they chose to run and attempt to save the operation they were running.

Including Don Wilkinson they would have been an extremely experienced and highly skilled team who made the choices they did based on the information they had, they weren't cowboys and calling them incompetent and somehow apportioning blame back onto them from the comfort of your armchair is not only ignorant and extremely arrogant its also highly disrespectful.

[Patrick]

Plus 1.........:niceone:

[skidMark]

Please do show this bit i supposedly posted blaming don wilkinson for any of this?

Feel free to quote me.

:angry:

[Patrick]

Please do show this bit i supposedly posted blaming don wilkinson for any of this?

Feel free to quote me.

:angry:

See my post #29...

Not you... another.... but you are saying similar to what was said in the other thread. Stop being so paranoid, ya "P" head....

[spudchucka]

Please do show this bit i supposedly posted blaming don wilkinson for any of this?

Feel free to quote me.

:angry:

What difference does it make? Your thread tittle alone should earn you a good poke in the eye.:Pokey:

[Bend-it]

Your patience and understanding are an example of the professionalism of the police here. Not being a police officer, I would have said something like "You fucking idiot, what the fuck would you know about these things. SOMEONE DIED TRYING TO PROTECT YOU, YOU WORTHLESS TURD. If you don't think the police are doing a good enough job, then feel free to summon up the balls to make it better." Something like that... :shit:
Keep up the good work and be safe.

And when the citizen does, they get taken to court, put through the hassle of putting up a defence, with all the associated costs.


There are probably many reasons why it wasn't practical to arm themselves (ever tried sliding under a car with an m24

M24?? Nobody's talking about heavy barrelled sniper rifles, you tosser. How about a Baretta M9? Sig P226? or any number of sidearms that police anywhere else in the world carry on a regular basis.

I feel completely for the copper and his family. Even though I've received a few speeding tickets, I still want an able and armed police force protecting innocent civilians, and the mamby pamby softly green criminal rights groups can go suck it for all I care. Better yet, they should go sit down and have coffee with the wives of every cop killed on duty.

If the rationale for not arming our cops properly is to avoid an arms race with crims, then policy makers need to pull their heads out of their arses and look around. The crims ARE armed. Our cops are NOT. The arms race IS ON, and the cops are losing!!

The day someone took a stick to a fight, the arms race started. We just need to keep ahead of the opposition, which you'd hope a nation state could.

Ultimately, it's the fault of ALL YOU BLOODY TOSSERS WHO VOTED LABOUR THE LAST 2 ELECTIONS!! Don't pretend you didn't... they won, so a good proportion of kiwis did. The beauty of a democracy is that we deserve the government we get.

Rant over. :girlfight:

[skidMark]

What difference does it make? Your thread tittle alone should earn you a good poke in the eye.:Pokey:


Why should i have shut up and the man die for nothing?

Would you rather we all sit on our arse on issues that need looking at so they don't happen again / there are better measures in place to minimalize risk? i do not think the proper action was taken in this case, if you do not like it you do not have to comment.

What would happen if we did nothing in regards to the cheesecutter issue?. Same thing is it not?

It is all relevant.

Skid.

[maybe]

Arm the police so when shot at they can defend themselves, the police here are armed it does not seem to of started an arms war, the opposite seems to be in place since we have been here, there has been 3 crims shot and killed in Queensland, and no cops have been killed.
Also the public side with the police not the crims they support the police when a scumbag is shot. There is none of this they should not of used force so on and so forth.:rockon::rockon:

[spudchucka]

Why should i have shut up and the man die for nothing?

Would you rather we all sit on our arse on issues that need looking at so they don't happen again / there are better measures in place to minimalize risk? i do not think the proper action was taken in this case, if you do not like it you do not have to comment.

What would happen if we did nothing in regards to the cheesecutter issue?. Same thing is it not?

It is all relevant.

Skid.

While I'm sure you have a reasonable understanding of the issues relating to cheescutters, I'm also equally sure that you have little to no understanding of the issues relating to the competence or incompetence of "The NZ Police" and how that applies to the death of Sgt Wilkonson. Talk about it all you want but broad, ill-informed statements like that don't help anyone.

[Patrick]

Also the public side with the police not the crims they support the police when a scumbag is shot. There is none of this they should not of used force so on and so forth.:rockon::rockon:

This is the difference. Poor scumbag, bad copper....


While I'm sure you have a reasonable understanding of the issues relating to cheescutters, I'm also equally sure that you have little to no understanding of the issues relating to the competence or incompetence of "The NZ Police" and how that applies to the death of Sgt Wilkonson. Talk about it all you want but broad, ill-informed statements like that don't help anyone.

Spud is exactly right here. The header is piss poor Skiddy....

[jrandom]

I'm guessing the main reason the officers weren't armed was because no decent means of concealed carry or any sidearm other than the G17 was available. You can hardly be 'covert' with a whacking great holster on your belt.

Oh, for a properly resourced NZ Police force...

<img src="http://oldwarrior.exteen.com/images/glock26_1.jpg"/>

[Patrick]

A point missed by most, it seems, Jrandom..... Well spotted!;)

[skidMark]

While I'm sure you have a reasonable understanding of the issues relating to cheescutters, I'm also equally sure that you have little to no understanding of the issues relating to the competence or incompetence of "The NZ Police" and how that applies to the death of Sgt Wilkonson. Talk about it all you want but broad, ill-informed statements like that don't help anyone.


ill-informed?, i used the media, same as anybody else does?

so unless you have a source within the nz police? which is not public information, so put simply you are shutting me down and implying i am assuming things, but i am actually word for word using the information provided by the media as that is the median information that is allowed to be released is broadcast via.

So you are using a source that is not publicly available knowledge to all, to call me ill informed?

Top work buddy, good luck with that. :cool:

[Ocean1]

ill-informed?, i used the media

Ill informed and not very bright then...

[terbang]

humm yes and truely....How Many 13yr's would you like to see coming out at 33yr with twenty's yrs of.. inside training..FUCK NOT ME..and truely..its not a colour issues..its a easy at making it..getting it..

fourty eight bucks it cost roughly..... takes 7hours and its boiled and ready for sale.. "p" ..done..
out of that the return is nearly..$440.00 cost of a life.. huumm

sorry but prison... only supplies extra people on the outside to make more of it..

Good point there. But we definately need some sort of deterrent. Up here they don´t have a drug problem, though they do have chop chop square. A big problem if you are dealing with drugs.

[spudchucka]

ill-informed?, i used the media, same as anybody else does?

Say no more!

[98tls]

Say no more! :killingmeSpudchucka walks off shaking his head.:clap:

[skidMark]

Say no more!


Well it is how any imformation able to be released to the general public is released it it not?

They can twist it how they wish, you are in theory only able to get the same information.

So you obviously have other information, from another source, that cannot be released to the public, so you are using information unavailable to me, to shut me down, yet will not give any more details.

Keep it up sunshine, nice long reply you had there, run out of words, realised i completely just made you look ridiculously bad?

This time i want a decent reply, so please do enlighten us to your source, and some evidence of further proof, otherwise you are spouting no more than hear say and general "ooo heres a chance to bash skidMark"

guess what mate.

FAIL.

have a nice day spud. :niceone:

I eagerly await your reply.

Skid.

[skidMark]

Ill informed and not very bright then...


The media is the median in which information is released, like it or not it is all we got, we all know that, so stop trying to turn it on me.

yet another FAIL.

please try again later.

Wheres somebody of katman quality with a decent defence to me, this is just getting sad.

Media is how the information is released, it is not possible for joe public like me to recieve the stripped down version straight from the horses mouth, i quoted the news article, and what the medeia had used as word for word quotes from somebody in the new zealand police, so what more can i do, the media cannot twist a quote, it is illegal, and twisting a quote from a nz police officer (a high up one no less) in a highly discussed case, on the front page of the paper, they are hardly going to be able to put words in thier mouth now are they.

If you are going to skidmark bash, have more in your defence than a chopped quote from me and a one line reply, because i will not put up with it.

Skid. :headbang:

[spudchucka]

How about you detail exactly how the alleged incompetence of an entire organisation that you mention in your thread tittle contributed directly to the poor man's death.

[Patrick]

ill-informed?, i used the media,

so unless you have a source within the nz police? which is not public information, ....

So you are using a source that is not publicly available knowledge to all, to call me ill informed?

Top work buddy, good luck with that. :cool:

Geez skiddie... it aint a bash at you. Your header was the bait.

The media are well known for the crap they spout, and you took it hook line and sinker.

Yep, we have a source and yep, we aint telling you about it, as it is on a need to know basis. Operating procedures and the like are need to know... YOU do not need to know how, why, when we do what we do.

Simple really......

[skidMark]

How about you detail exactly how the alleged incompetence of an entire organisation that you mention in your thread tittle contributed directly to the poor man's death.


by the NZ police does not mean the whole organisation was incompetant (even if this is the case)

it is like all the milk powder in china killing babies, fonterra only holds a share in the compaany, it doesnt actually supply any product, yer they are in deep shit over it.

I think the procedures in place used by the NZ police need to be looked at. as obviously this time was a cock up and there must be some kind of book of corredct procedure, not just oh yeah guys what you reckon, want to go rambo style tonight orrr...should we do paper scissors rock?

i don't think so eh.

so in short, yes a cock up by a few officers does reflect on the whole force, to say it doesnt would be a very narrow minded view.

Welcome to the real world.

Was still expecting a longer better thought out reply though spuddy, and after 3 posts thats all you manage to spit out? :oi-grr:

[skidMark]

Geez skiddie... it aint a bash at you. Your header was the bait.

The media are well known for the crap they spout, and you took it hook line and sinker.

Yep, we have a source and yep, we aint telling you about it, as it is on a need to know basis. Operating procedures and the like are need to know... YOU do not need to know how, why, when we do what we do.

Simple really......

SO officer patrick, the NZ police is holding back information from the NZ public regarding this case?

Yet, you are using this against me without giving details?

Well thats an unfair advantage in a resoned debate now isn't it.

its like putting a scooter vs a busa in a drag race...

So unless you will share this source, which you won't...

skidMark: 1

You lot of stirrers: 0


fail... :buggerd:

[spudchucka]

by the NZ police does not mean the whole organisation was incompetant (even if this is the case)

it is like all the milk powder in china killing babies, fonterra only holds a share in the compaany, it doesnt actually supply any product, yer they are in deep shit over it.

I think the procedures in place used by the NZ police need to be looked at. as obviously this time was a cock up and there must be some kind of book of corredct procedure, not just oh yeah guys what you reckon, want to go rambo style tonight orrr...should we do paper scissors rock?

i don't think so eh.

so in short, yes a cock up by a few officers does reflect on the whole force, to say it doesnt would be a very narrow minded view.

Welcome to the real world.

Was still expecting a longer better thought out reply though spuddy, and after 3 posts thats all you manage to spit out? :oi-grr:

What procedures exactly are you talking about? What was done wrong and how can they improve it in order to avoid future "cock ups"?

[Patrick]

... Welcome to the real world.



Re read my last post.... I have been doing this job longer than you have been alive. I think I know about the real world....


SO officer patrick, the NZ police is holding back information from the NZ public regarding this case?

I hope so... It is an operational procedure - we don't want the shitheads knowing how and what we do to catch them...

Yet, you are using this against me without giving details?

Say what???? Using what against you?????? Are you going to change the world????????????????

Well thats an unfair advantage in a resoned debate now isn't it.

No - its life Jim, get over it.... YOU do NOT need to know. You WANT to know.... Want and need are quite different.

its like putting a scooter vs a busa in a drag race...

or taking a knife to a gun fight...

So unless you will share this source, which you won't...

skidMark: 1

You lot of stirrers: 0


fail... :buggerd:

Whatever gets you through the day.....:clap:

You winner....:niceone:

[98tls]

Re read my last post.... I have been doing this job longer than you have been alive. I think I know about the real world....



Whatever gets you through the day.....:clap:

You winner....:niceone: :niceone:Silly bugger will have a fat on for a week."i fought the law and i won".

[jrandom]

"i fought the law and i won".

Heh.

Well, that'd be solely on the internets, then.

:shutup:

(Don't worry, Mark, I'll bring you a cake with a file in it.)

[Swoop]

I guess the dead dude had not anticipated such 'reaction' to his efforts...I know that in similar situation I think the same....

(ever tried sliding under a car with an m24 strapped to you while trying to be covert?).
I imagine that his job of fitting a device inside(?) the vehicle would have been made much more difficult, if wearing a stab proof vest.

Interesting to see the two "accused" in the dock, on tonight's news.

[scumdog]

SO officer patrick, the NZ police is holding back information from the NZ public regarding this case?

Yet, you are using this against me without giving details?

Well thats an unfair advantage in a resoned debate now isn't it.

its like putting a scooter vs a busa in a drag race...

So unless you will share this source, which you won't...

skidMark: 1

You lot of stirrers: 0

fail... :buggerd:

Be aware Skiddy the media (unbelievably) will print (a) whatever sellls their rag and (b) whatever half-truths and outright fabrications they can get away with.

And the public devour it like it's the truth.

But ya knew that eh?

[alanzs]

Be aware Skiddy the media (unbelievably) will print (a) whatever sellls their rag and (b) whatever half-truths and outright fabrications they can get away with.

And the public devour it like it's the truth.

But ya knew that eh?

WHAT! You mean that everything in the paper or the TV isn't true? No way....

[Rcktfsh]

WHAT! You mean that everything in the paper or the TV isn't true? No way....

Phew...lucky we got the internet as a reliable source of totally true info :gob:.

[imdying]

Be aware Skiddy the media (unbelievably) will print (a) whatever sellls their rag and (b) whatever half-truths and outright fabrications they can get away with.

And the public devour it like it's the truth.It's hard to swallow a statement like that... but every single time I read about something that I have inside knowledge on, that statement is proven to be fact. At first I thought it was just crap journalism, but 'every time a coconut' points more towards it being dressed up to sell papers.

Not sure if it has always been this way? Did the popularity of the Internet turn the media this way, or has it always been like this?

Are their any factual papers? Or is that merely a matter of perspective anyway?

[skidMark]

Be aware Skiddy the media (unbelievably) will print (a) whatever sellls their rag and (b) whatever half-truths and outright fabrications they can get away with.

And the public devour it like it's the truth.

But ya knew that eh?


Yes i bloodey know that but its all i have to go with! I've been saaying that the entire way through this thread.

And then police officers like yourself and patrick try shut me down and rip me a new hole over me not knowing the facts.

Yes will not tell me "the truth"

So for the 4th time.

Do not use information i do not have access to, as a rebuttle against me.

Comprende?

[Ocean1]

Did the popularity of the Internet turn the media this way, or has it always been like this?

Since the press evolved from a simple local broadsheet to multiple, competing comercial enterprises.

Add to that a more recent trend for journalistic academic programs to be… somewhat politically tainted.

[rodimus]

I think the cops need to take a hit on the chin for this one.

Police TSU comprise staff members that are from a purely technical background. These "technicians" are given a rank to mould them into the Police structure. They do not undergo the training that the real frontline officers undergo.

Therefore, these "Technicians" need to be protected and adequately informed by the NZ Police of the real risks to their personal safety.

In this case, The NZ Police have seriously miscalculated the threat level present.

A low risk operation is not an operation where you will be killed if you are seen.

I'd say there would be a particular department of the NZ Police that needs a good boot up the backside for providing misinformed information resulting in death.

One can argue that Don should have had a vest on, but a vest may only be required where the threat level is significant and according to the Police, it was not, Hence Don's chance of survival was less likely.

[imdying]

Not sure that's fair? According to the write up in the paper this guy was a right 'ard coont that was quite suited to this sort of work. He just should've been given the right tool to drop one of these P smokin dickheads if required is all. I imagine covert ops an infiltrating drug operations isn't all rainbow and lollipops, you can't expect the intel on a job like that to be 100% all the time.

[rodimus]

Not sure that's fair? According to the write up in the paper this guy was a right 'ard coont that was quite suited to this sort of work. He just should've been given the right tool to drop one of these P smokin dickheads if required is all. I imagine covert ops an infiltrating drug operations isn't all rainbow and lollipops, you can't expect the intel on a job like that to be 100% all the time.

It doesn't need to be %100 right, It just shouldn't be %100 wrong.
'ard coont? That didn't make much difference to the bullets.
Like I said, these guys are "Technicians". They aren't trained for the handling of guns (at present). Hence the backup team that was sitting round the corner eating their donuts.

[imdying]

It doesn't need to be %100 right, It just shouldn't be %100 wrong.Which it wasn't...

'ard coont? That didn't make much difference to the bullets.
Like I said, these guys are "Technicians". They aren't trained for the handling of guns (at present). Hence the backup team that was sitting round the corner eating their donuts.Given the amount of time he spent in the Secret Service, he probably knew more about handling weapons than you appear to know about this topic.

[Dare]

I'm getting fed up of the crock of shit emotive reporting we are getting fed by the media, and it's steadily getting worse.

How many times last night I heard the operation referred to as a botch up. For chrissake these are experienced people making judgement calls, including the officer that was killed.

We only hear what the media want us to hear, and opinion is too quickly reported as fact.

I could not believe the way this story was reported on TV1 last night.

I couldn't agree more, the way PC and selective reporting has gone i'm surprised we are getting any meaningful news at all! Actually...

From the perspective of risk, it seems to me that protocol probably meant that such an operation was deemed a lower risk than it turned out to be. Therefore it was at a guess being run in quite an economical 'we've done this hundreds of times' kind of way. The force does not appear to be run in a 'throw everything we've got at one problem at a time' way (aka using a sledgehammer to crack a wallnut). Never the less, it was foolish to approach a drug house with no protection other than a stab vest. Perhaps the backup should have been somewhat closer than a block away, around the corner would have been more appropriate it seems.

All conjecture anyhow, given how many accounts of this event there are going to be I dont think there is much more to say with any degree of accuracy other than people in risk of getting shot without warning should be armed or at least protected with more than a stab proof vest. Kevlar would work without giving the game away. Although by the sounds of this there was no reason previously to believe that the set up was as dangerous as it was. Unlucky combined with backup that was not prepared or set up to react in an emergency.

[rodimus]

Which it wasn't...
Given the amount of time he spent in the Secret Service, he probably knew more about handling weapons than you appear to know about this topic.

LOL.....

In New Zealand, if one mentions the Secret Service, they are infact referring to the New Zealand Security Intelligence Service. The term "Secret Service" is a confusion between the British terminology for MI6 and the NZ terminology. Don has never worked for the NZSIS. Don worked for the other NZ clandestine agency - As an electronics technician.

Considering that I hold a NZ firearms licence and have a military background, which Don did not have. I'm not sure that you are on the money here either.

[scumdog]

A low risk operation is not an operation where you will be killed if you are seen.



Sorta like crossing the road, going for a swim, riding a motorbike 'low risk operation' - even if being seen is not a worry??:shutup:

[rodimus]

Sorta like crossing the road, going for a swim, riding a motorbike 'low risk operation' - even if being seen is not a worry??:shutup:

I'd risk crossing a road anyday. I'll happily do that.

I wouldn't ever want to mess with a drug suppliers car though.

Then take into consideration the statistical likelihood of surviving the two events unharmed.

In my opinion, there are completely different risk levels here. How could they both qualify as the same risk definition - low risk?

[scumdog]

I'd risk crossing a road anyday. I'll happily do that.

I wouldn't ever want to mess with a drug suppliers car though.

Then take into consideration the statistical likelihood of surviving the two events unharmed.

In my opinion, there are completely different risk levels here. How could they both qualify as the same risk definition - low risk?

Funny, I feel more at risk crossing the road, more idiots to contend with and they don't even intend me any harm...

The druggies? I'm more prepared for THEM.

[rodimus]

Funny, I feel more at risk crossing the road, more idiots to contend with and they don't even intend me any harm...

The druggies? I'm more prepared for THEM.

So you'd happily mess with 4-10 drug dealers cars every day rather than cross as many streets in a day. Because you are more Prepared. Well done!

[rodimus]

Funny how New Zealand has so many stupid people that can think such stupid things. Precisely why this Labour Government is still in power. Because we have an uneducated society. This "Riviera of the South" guy must be one of those communist supporters.

Having now shotdown both "Imdying" and "Scumdog", I'm happily awaiting the labour coloured rep......

[scumdog]

So you'd happily mess with 4-10 drug dealers cars every day rather than cross as many streets in a day. Because you are more Prepared. Well done!

I guess one day a druggie will clean me out if I let my guard down?.

But then there's more idiots on the road so I guess one of them gettin me is more likely??

[rodimus]

Funny, I feel more at risk crossing the road, more idiots to contend with and they don't even intend me any harm...

The druggies? I'm more prepared for THEM.

So, just how little risk would you feel if planting an implant on a drug dealers car?

[scumdog]

So, just how little risk would you feel if planting an implant on a drug dealers car?

Bugger all risk, never will will worry about doing that.

But I guess the dead guy thought the same eh?

[scumdog]

Funny how New Zealand has so many stupid people that can think such stupid things. Precisely why this Labour Government is still in power. Because we have an uneducated society. This "Riviera of the South" guy must be one of those communist supporters.

Having now shotdown both "Imdying" and "Scumdog", I'm happily awaiting the labour coloured rep......


Shotdown eh? Mwahahahah...:bleh:

Lets have a KB vote on that eh ya trolling amatuer noob!!:devil2:

[Patrick]

And then police officers like yourself and patrick try shut me down and rip me a new hole over me not knowing the facts.

Yes will not tell me "the truth"

So for the 4th time.

Do not use information i do not have access to, as a rebuttle against me.

Comprende?

Just pointed out you are missing something, leave it there... move on. You don't know if incompetence was involved.

The truth is he died....

Incompetence? That is a news paper selling headline, nothing more, nothing less.

You say don't use info we have access to as a rebuttal to you... Have another read of what I said earlier.

You don't need to know - you only want to know. You are willing to use crap info newspaper selling headlines as if it is gospel. Carry on.:third:

[alanzs]

Shotdown eh? Mwahahahah...:bleh:

Lets have a KB vote on that eh ya trolling amatuer noob!!:devil2:

I vote the noob gets shot down! :2guns:

[scumdog]

You don't need to know - you only want to know. You are willing to use crap info newspaper selling headlines as if it is gospel. Carry on.:third:

I find my used toilet paper gives me more useful, truthful and accurate info than the average newspaper.....

[Patrick]

I find my used toilet paper gives me more useful, truthful and accurate info than the average newspaper.....

You're reading shit again...

[scumdog]

You're reading shit again...

And never had to go to my mailbox to get it..;)

[jafar]

I find my used toilet paper gives me more useful, truthful and accurate info than the average newspaper.....

So how exactly do you read used dunny roll? :whistle:

[scumdog]

So how exactly do you read used dunny roll? :whistle:
NOT by Braille, that's for sure!!

[Grahameeboy]

NOT by Braille, that's for sure!!

You use your Police nose:pinch:

[jafar]

NOT by Braille, that's for sure!!

Bit like reading tea leaves is it?:gob:

[Goblin]

Heh! Poo paper readings at Chez Scumdog. "I see a shitty day for you." Bit like reading tea leaves. Can you do poo readings too? Like rune stones. :laugh:

[alanzs]

So how exactly do you read used dunny roll? :whistle:

Scratch and sniff?

[riffer]

This whole thread has turned to shit. :yawn:













or did it start that way...

[scumdog]

This whole thread has turned to shit. :yawn:













or did it start that way...

Who gives one?

A good guy is dead through the actions of fuckwitted others.

[Patrick]

+1....

A misinformed start, a headline that took some, hook line and sinker.

Skiddie wanting to know more, but he won't... Because he can not. Procedures need to be kept quiet in some instances. This is one of them.

Lessons to be learnt? Sure.

Lessons to be learnt via the media? Hell no.

R.I.P. brother.