Cornering - To brake or not to brake

[wysper]

I have been reading the threads on things like trail braking and it has made me think about cornering technique on the road - not the track.

I am a very conservative rider and therefore tend to err on the side of caution on such things as speed, lean angle etc.

So when picking a cornering speed and line my aim is to pick a line that I can go through without having to adjust my line (assuming no hazzards appear and I have read the corner correctly) and without breaking. Just leaving the fun part of accelerating out of the corner. I figure I have misread a corner if I have to change my line or speed in it. (possibly also just my lack of skill :laugh:)

Is it ok to be going in "hot" and staying on the breaks right up to the apex?
Or is that just another method of getting though the corner faster?

I am wondering that if I get my initial technique right then the confidence to go a bit faster and harder will come. Trust in my own skills and in the capabilities of the bike.

I would rather look to create a good habit and work from there rather than just go hard and hope to survive.

Thoughts?

[James Deuce]

You know you make people who answer these questions look like wankers?

Anyway.

As a well known wanker I try to stick with the "slow in, fast out" theory of road riding, especially If I have no sight line through the corner.

I set my entry speed, release the brakes and peel into the corner with tiny bit of power on and steadily increase the power from apex to exit. On the road your chosen apex needs to take into account keeping yourself out of the way of oncoming traffic and roadside furniture.

Most of the time though, I find that most roads can be navigated at a fair clip with little more than smooth throttle adjustments and lots of forward planning.

BTW, we call them "brakes", and the verb is "braking". "Breaks" and "breaking" when describing this process in writing is just tempting fate.

[CookMySock]

In MY OPINION, if you are a cautions rider and just like to hum along, then it is unlikely you will end up in a corner that is too quick for the bike to handle, unless you miss something really big, then you are screwed anyway. The bike will do a lot more than you think it will.

If I was in your position and I found myself just a little quick for comfort in a corner, I would NOT brake, but put my shoulder out and concentrate and countersteer through it.

As soon as you brake, the suspension geometry changes, and then you have to deal with the bike re-steering from that AS WELL, so why make it even harder.

The spinoff from this is, you will eventually increase your ability to corner, if not for general use, then for emergencies anyway. I recently went through the same decision making process. I chose to steer - not brake, because the bike had more ability up its sleeve than I did, so I trusted it and went with it. Its working for me.

All in my opinion. Haters ignored.

Steve

[discotex]

You know you make people who answer these questions look like wankers?


Helpful wankers though.



So when picking a cornering speed and line my aim is to pick a line that I can go through without having to adjust my line (assuming no hazzards appear and I have read the corner correctly) and without breaking. Just leaving the fun part of accelerating out of the corner. I figure I have misread a corner if I have to change my line or speed in it. (possibly also just my lack of skill :laugh:)

Sounds good so far.



Is it ok to be going in "hot" and staying on the breaks right up to the apex?
Or is that just another method of getting though the corner faster?


Braking to the apex on the roads doesn't leave much room for error in your entry speed.



I would rather look to create a good habit and work from there rather than just go hard and hope to survive.

Thoughts?

Stick with the habit you're in. It's the best approach for the road.

Learn to apex later as well.
http://www.msgroup.org/forums/mtt/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3555

[Ixion]

The answer is "it all depends". On the bike, on the rider, on the corner. I have several bikes , of quite different sorts. I find that the cornering technique that works well for one does not for another. Note here that by "works well" I mean that it feels comfortable, is safe and provides scope for emergency action should that be necessary. What I deem "working well" may not by any means be the *fastest* way through a corner.

I think the best advice is the oldest - if it feels right it probably is. If it feels edgy and not well controlled - don't do it that way.

But certainly, some bikes, best way is hard(ish) on the brakes until the apex, then hard on the throttle. Others, that would be unwise.

You need to find what works for you, your bike, your roads.

[wysper]

You know you make people who answer these questions look like wankers?



BTW, we call them "brakes", and the verb is "braking". "Breaks" and "breaking" when describing this process in writing is just tempting fate.

I agree - Good wankers :)

And thanks for pointing out the breaks/brakes thing. :Oops: I like to think that usually I would catch that sort of thing before I hit reply or submit.


In MY OPINION, if you are a cautions rider and just like to hum along, then it is unlikely you will end up in a corner that is too quick for the bike to handle

Yeah. I am hoping that is right too.



Note here that by "works well" I mean that it feels comfortable, is safe and provides scope for emergency action should that be necessary. What I deem "working well" may not by any means be the *fastest* way through a corner.

I think the best advice is the oldest - if it feels right it probably is. If it feels edgy and not well controlled - don't do it that way.



Now that sounds like good advice too.
I also imagine that too improve you sometimes have to push you self a bit out of your comfort zone. The trick is knowing the time you can do that safely.

Thankfully I have had offers of help from a couple of mentors. I think it is long overdue time for me to take some help.

Thanks for the answers so far.

[svr]

IMHO `trail braking' is out of place on the road for these reasons:
1. Its not required on spriral / constant arc / spiral corners of public roads, mainly just the bastard decreasing radius corners found on every track.
2. The front brake is the most powerful control on a motorcycle. If you're trailing it into every corner, and something unexpected causes you to panic, you'll tend to grab the brake too hard, which is Very Bad.
3. Its a technique to get the last second or so on the track. Safety is the main concern on the road.
4. Bruce Anstey, possibly the worlds best public roads racer, doesn't trail brake much, if at all. Maybe it held him back on the track, but it didn't on the roads. Roads are different.
5. Bikes handle better with the power on - slower in and gas out gives more precise riding and better visibilty
6. If you have to lose speed in a corner a good technique is keep the gas on a little, but drag the REAR brake. the bike will slow and turn instead of standing up and trying to put you in the hedge.
Just my view...

[MSTRS]

IMHO `trail braking' is out of place on the road for these reasons:
1. Its not required on spriral / constant arc / spiral corners of public roads, mainly just the bastard decreasing radius corners found on every track.
2. The front brake is the most powerful control on a motorcycle. If you're trailing it into every corner, and something unexpected causes you to panic, you'll tend to grab the brake too hard, which is Very Bad.
3. Its a technique to get the last second or so on the track. Safety is the main concern on the road.
4. Bruce Anstey, possibly the worlds best public roads racer, doesn't trail brake much, if at all. Maybe it held him back on the track, but it didn't on the roads. Roads are different.
5. Bikes handle better with the power on - slower in and gas out gives more precise riding and better visibilty
6. If you have to lose speed in a corner a good technique is keep the gas on a little, but drag the REAR brake. the bike will slow and turn instead of standing up and trying to put you in the hedge.
Just my view...
1....and on near every public road. Yes, even on SH1. These corners that tighten up are every rider's nightmare, unless you ride only one road all the time and it becomes as familiar as it would on a track.
2. Too much front and you'll stand the bike up/run wide.
3. Being able to stop in half the visible distance is (usually) more than enough safety margin. Obviously, you need to 'experiment' to find what that distance is for you and your bike.
4. Trailing brakes is a good way to require constant pad replacement.
5. Yep. Better to have weight on your rear tyre than your front. This is why you bike stands up under front braking...more weight on the front tyre means it resists leaning/turning.
6. True. But 4 stroke engines have a lovely little thing called torque. The greater that amount of torque, the more engine braking you have available. A V-twin is a great bike to ride the engine on, and I'd hazard a guess that once you get your skills up, there would be few roads that you would have to use brakes at all. Barring emergencies, of course.
To paraphrase an old saying..."Use the gears, Luke"

[325rocket]

good thread.

From time to time i brake (front) into corners with the bike leaning over rite to the apex then hit the gas on the way out. is this bad practice? i feel comfortable / smooth doing it and have not had any problems. Is it a matter of time until i wash the front out? im only on a 250 so theres not a whole lot of power there to get me in trouble.

cheers

[wysper]

6. If you have to lose speed in a corner a good technique is keep the gas on a little, but drag the REAR brake. the bike will slow and turn instead of standing up and trying to put you in the hedge.
Just my view...

Funnily enough, when I started reading about trail braking, I had assumed it always meant the rear brake. Seemed a slightly dodgy idea to be riding the front brake into a corner.

I am on a V-Twin. So using the engine to control speed is awesome. In general I probably ride the engine and gears harder than the brakes.

[CookMySock]

I am on a V-Twin. So using the engine to control speed is awesome. In general I probably ride the engine and gears harder than the brakes.Ditto, works good alrighty, but if you throttle off mid-corner it will push a lot of weight on the front wheel, making life harder for it and consequently, you.

Alternatively, if you slide yer butt well back on the seat, and as soon as you are tipped in and established in the corner, crack the throttle on slightly so you have no engine braking. My bike is much much happier in the corner if I do this.

I have had a lot of fun learning about cornering bikes, and I am much safer thanks to the guidance I have received on KB. Kudos.

Steve

[R6_kid]

Deliberatly trail braking into a corner means using up more of your available grip as you enter, and therefore isn't a smart move on the road, and has infact got me into trouble in the past (the rustle in Russell).

However, understanding and getting used to how your bike reacts whilst braking on a curve/corner is a handy bit of knowledge to hold.

Being able to stop on a curve is a requirement for the BHS test, however it is only dont at 20kmh.

If you are talking about setting you're entry speed for a corner then on the road it is best to have this done before you enter the corner as if you trail brake into a corner you don't know you could find yourself running out of lean angle/grip/stopping distance really fast - best to just ride for the vanishing point, and be comfortable using the brakes to alter your speed if the need arises.

Remember that generally using the front brakes - the bike will tend to 'stand up' and run wide, and using the rear it will generally tighten your line/make the bike lean in more.

[Devil]

However, understanding and getting used to how your bike reacts whilst braking on a curve/corner is a handy bit of knowledge to hold.

..................

Remember that generally using the front brakes - the bike will tend to 'stand up' and run wide, and using the rear it will generally tighten your line/make the bike lean in more.

Yes, it is a handy thing to know.
Plus as R6_kid just alluded to, the front brake wont always make a bike stand up. This is dependent on the combination of chassis, suspension, tyres and general setup. None of the bikes i've owned stand up under brakes and I like it like that. They've all been very predictable. Different tyres can make an instant difference to this.

I have no issue with braking in corners, but it's only done where necessary. Learn your bike, learn how it behaves.

[FROSTY]

Heres the problem dude-you are asking a generic question sorta requiring a generic answer.
Ixion covered that off really well.
For me --Ok Ive gone into a ROAD corner a bit hot on my gjhj 7/11
I will brake as hard as I can for as long as I can right up to THAT point.
Heres the nub of the matter--deciding where THAT point is.
its different for every corner.
Then Im committed to getting back on the gas enough to get a load on the chasis and tyres so they can do their best job of getting me round the corner.
I disagree with srv only in that if Ive ferked it up trail braking MIGHT be something I'll use.
Its kinkda like being ARNIE with a bazuka,a machine gun, a couple of knives, a pistol and god only knows what other weapons.
Ive got the weapons --doesn't mean I use em--but its good to have em when I really need em

[hospitalfood]

the closest i come to crashing is when i brake hard into corners and stand the bike up.
sometimes i am just to fast into the corner for my ability and have to brake, it stands up, my line goes to shit, and i scare myself.
for me slightly to fast is not so bad, i stay calm, lean or counter steer a bit more and very gently apply power. this works for me.
i must say im a very average rider with no professional knowledge and have a bike with more ability than myself.

[MVnut]

I think Ixion and Frosty put it well, there's no generic answer to that question. However I do brake in corners ( when I need/want to ) and although the bike would normally sit up a bit, you just have to be more in control and not let it. And as Frosty points out there is 'that point' where you must get back on the gas. You have to decide what technique suits you and how hard you want to take the corner and what experience you have. Too much information at the wrong time can be very dangerous. Enjoyment is what it's all about.

[scumdog]

Hoekay, my tuppence worth: IF I want to 'play' a little in the twisty bits I knock the bike into a lower gear, in fact into a gear that almost seems one gear TOO low.

The resulting engine braking/accell. out of the corners really puts a smile on your face and saves the brakes a bit too and seems to 'smooth' out the bike.

And I ALWAYS try to brake when travelling in a straight line, less drama, less chance for an 'oops'

But hey, whadoIknow, I ride a Harley and I'm heading towards being 'old'.

[beyond]

It comes down to rider ability, knowing your bike, road surface, weight of you and the machine and lean angle ability of your bike before hard bits touch down...BUT the rule of thumb is for every percentage point you use in braking that comes off your maxiumum grip level.
i.e. Brake at 10% you have 90% grip when cornering. Brake at 90% while cornering and your grip is down to 10%. Same figures stand while accelerating out of a corner. 90% throttle gives 10% grip and 10% throttle gives 90% grip and any other figure you throw into the mix.

Do the maths.... you can get into a hell of a lot of trouble if you don't know the limits of your bike and shouldn't be at 100% grip or braking on the road anyway.

If in an emergency than yep if you need a 100% grip you better be off the brakes which mean you need to stand the bike up a bit more if you are going to get on the brakes. If you aren't at 100% riding when you brake into a corner you have to trade off braking for more grip and counter steer harder to maintain your line under braking.

Short version, out brake the ratios and you're off no matter how good a rider you are.

[scumdog]

i.e. Brake at 10% you have 90% grip when cornering. Brake at 90% while cornering and your grip is down to 10%. Same figures stand while accelerating out of a corner. 90% throttle gives 10% grip and 10% throttle gives 90% grip and any other figure you throw into the mix.

Do the maths.... you can get into a hell of a lot of trouble if you don't know the limits of your bike and shouldn't be at 100% grip or braking on the road anyway.

If in an emergency than yep if you need a 100% grip you better be off the brakes which mean you need to stand the bike up a bit more if you are going to get on the brakes. If you aren't at 100% riding when you brake into a corner you have to trade off braking for more grip and counter steer harder to maintain your line under braking.

Short version, out brake the ratios and you're off no matter how good a rider you are.

What he sed.

Your tyres can only handle so much lateral force.

It is up to you whether those forces are consumed by braking or by cornering.

[Ixion]

Well, I'm way past being merely old. And I don't ride a Harley. But, if I did, I'd probably use that technique. Now, try doing on a multicylinder two stroke! Everything has to work around the bike.

When I get a 'new-to-me' bike,as occasionally happens (it's amazing how many kidneys and other bits you can get by without if you really want to), I take it to a stretch of road I know well. One with lots of corners.

And try running through. Firstly , very conventionally. Brake early, steady throttle till the apex and accelerate out. The try changing things a bit. Not too much as once. Just a wee bit. Downchange maybe ? Hold the braking a bit longer? Trail brake through the corner? Quite a few combinations. See how each feels. A lot, they 'feel bad'. Not good on this bike. Some, 'Hm, that felt OK, lets note that one'. Try that one a bit harder , bit later . Not too much at once, this is an iterative process. Don't be afraid to take a few huindred tries working things out.Once you have an idea of what works for that bike start combining them. Making a mental note of what works best.

Then, you cana move on to the fun stuff. Experimenting with tyre pressures (not too much at once, maybe +- 3psi). And tryes themselves of course. And raising or lowering the fork tubes. Adjusting preload compression damping and rebound. Jump around on the bike, or stay still ?

Once you've worked your way through that lot, you'll know what works best for your bike, your riding style. And you'll be as old as I am !

[MVnut]

Traction is a dark art :headbang:

[Jerry74]

Sometimes a wee bit of rear brake can help to slide the rear and corner a bit quicker.

Generally not a good idea to brake on corners

[Ixion]

It comes down to rider ability, knowing your bike, road surface, weight of you and the machine and lean angle ability of your bike before hard bits touch down...BUT the rule of thumb is for every percentage point you use in braking that comes off your maxiumum grip level.
i.e. Brake at 10% you have 90% grip when cornering. Brake at 90% while cornering and your grip is down to 10%. Same figures stand while accelerating out of a corner. 90% throttle gives 10% grip and 10% throttle gives 90% grip and any other figure you throw into the mix.

Do the maths.... you can get into a hell of a lot of trouble if you don't know the limits of your bike and shouldn't be at 100% grip or braking on the road anyway.

If in an emergency than yep if you need a 100% grip you better be off the brakes which mean you need to stand the bike up a bit more if you are going to get on the brakes. If you aren't at 100% riding when you brake into a corner you have to trade off braking for more grip and counter steer harder to maintain your line under braking.

Short version, out brake the ratios and you're off no matter how good a rider you are.

That's true. Very true. And I certainly am not going to argue with it. But , it's all a bit more complicated than that.,

Because , some changes to the dynamic configuration of the bike can make the bike corner faster for the same sideways force (ie you can go through faster, and still only have the same lateral g). Hanging off is the clasic example. And sometimes, brakes can be used to initate those beneficial changes . Which is why trail braking works . It doesn't work on every bike, of course. Some , it's a waste of time, negative result. But some, the increase in cornering capability is more than the loss of traction. Yes, 10% brakes reduces your lateral capability to 90%. But if you could safely go through at 80kph with out trail braking, and can go through at 100kph with trail braking, the benefit of loading the geometry outweighs the loss of 10% of the traction budget.

[Motu]

When I get a 'new-to-me' bike,as occasionally happens (it's amazing how many kidneys and other bits you can get by without if you really want to), I take it to a stretch of road I know well. One with lots of corners.


Been doing this lately....unfamiliar bike on familiar road....and I suck! I'm not used to low narrow bars,short travel suspension,low centre of gravity and tyres with so much rubber on the road.I didn't realise I was such a bad rider,and it's taken a bit of time to unlearn my dirt bike habits - actually,it took a fang up a gravel road for me to sus it out.I feel like a new rider,the learning curve is steep....and with so many decades of vast experience behind me,one would think I would know it all,and then some.This is not so,and that's what makes riding such a rewarding experience.

[Ixion]

You've gone to the dark side , haven't you ! Old fella like you, you should be settling for a nice comfortable cruiser. You old chaps shouldn't push your aging faculties on perfromance machinery.

[MVnut]

Lots of mention about back brakes, I don't use them much, unless I want to alter my entry/line. When I'm going quick I often brake very hard right up to and even thru the apex cranked hard over, then hard on the gas cranked hard over also. Traction is not black and white, you can push the front to gain ground clearance thereby creating the possibility of a better line into the next turn. Sometimes you're on the front brakes and at the same time using the gas to work the back-end. If you're looking at a nice smooth line with no drama but still with a bit of fun, Scumdog put it well in his post ( his tuppence worth) well said mate, and we should all ride for the love of the sport and to stay alive. The road is not a racetrack.:sunny:

[Motu]

You've gone to the dark side , haven't you ! Old fella like you, you should be settling for a nice comfortable cruiser. You old chaps shouldn't push your aging faculties on perfromance machinery.

Not likely - been trying out the R65.....with some taller wide bars and a set of TT100's I might feel more at home on it.

[Ixion]

I knew once there was one Herrenraden in the house they'd stage a takeover. With Panzers . This is the beginning of the Fourth Reich, isn't it.

[svr]

Sometimes a wee bit of rear brake can help to slide the rear and corner a bit quicker.

Generally not a good idea to brake on corners

Thats why you keep the gas on - the rear won't lock.

Bikes's turn very well, and they stop very well. What they suck at is turning and stopping at the same time. What has really pissed me off over the years is all the riders I've seen `bailing' on corners i.e. somewhere in the back of back their head, when they believe they when they are going too fast, they think its still posible to slow down with the front brake. Logically, if you havent got the grip to make the corner, you havent got the grip to brake as well. Inevitably, the bike stands up and they head for the hedge. Really, the rider needs to learn to lean the bike on demand - on a neutral throttle. Top roadracers use maximum lean only when the've blown the corner - on a neutral throttle (for max grip) - bikes slow quickly at max lean with the added advantage of getting you around the corner...
Back to the thread, if the rider is trailing the front brake `as a matter of course', the tendency will be to grab it harder. Don't trail brake on the road.
IMHO of course.

[Pwalo]

I don't see what your problem is. Some corners need you to brake, or change down before you enter them (usually ones you can't see the exit to), some require you to use the brakes (decreasing radius, or descending, or a combination of both), and some let you keep a constant speed or some acceleration (open corners with lovely nice sight lines).

The only problem seems to be identifying them, and watching out for the bits that will hurt you such as cars, debris, gravel, etc. FWIW I try and do my braking/gear changing before I get to the corner, and try and leave myself able to accelerate gently through.

You can't really get a much better bike to ride on the road than the SV.

[slofox]

6. If you have to lose speed in a corner a good technique is keep the gas on a little, but drag the REAR brake. the bike will slow and turn instead of standing up and trying to put you in the hedge.
Just my view...

Agree 100% with this - have saved my arse several times using this technique...but better not to have to lose the speed in the first place....

[svr]

I don't see what your problem is.

You can't really get a much better bike to ride on the road than the SV.

Sorry... My problem (among several...) is people punching holes in the scenery because they misuse the front brake, which is a bit of a waste.
I know braking in corners is a normal part of riding, I was more talking down the use of trail braking as a sport riding technique, which I would strongly discourage for the reasons above. I'd always wondered why this track technique felt so out of place on the road - this thread was just a chance to think about it and write it down.

I agree about the SV - it may be labelled `a girls bike' but suzuki hit on something there (just costs 5 k to finish what they started...)

[CookMySock]

I agree about the SV - it may be labelled `a girls bike' but suzuki hit on something there (just costs 5 k to finish what they started...)and so it is for the cheaper bikes, not just the SV.

Steve

[rocketman1]

Being a V twin there should be a bit more engine braking than a inline 4.
So that may give you advantage in slowing for a corner.
If you are into the corner and going to fast, (it then depends) on how fast your are going relative to the corner.
My advice is what I have been told, for track racing: is to apply a little bit of rear brake as you enter the corner, hold it on until the apex of the corner and release rear brake as you gun it out. (If you ride a GSXR1000 I believe you can hold a bit of rear brake to control wheelspin when you accelerate..oh to be so lucky)
anyway while doing this, weight your inside footpeg, drop your inside elbow at the same time, ie countersteer, look where you want to go, and aim for it. DONT look at the traffic coming the other way as the bike will mostly go where you are looking.
another thing is keep your head level, with the ground, you cannot corner with a tilt on your head. You have to some connection to reality
Can you send me a cheque for $100 , cos that what it cost me to learn that. Cheers

[CookMySock]

Being a V twin there should be a bit more engine braking than a inline 4. So that may give you advantage in slowing for a corner.Yes you are right - BEFORE the corner that is. Throttling off MID corner on my heavy vtwin pushes a LOT or weight onto the front wheel. It emphatically does not like it one bit, and the nose dips and dives badly provoking even more rider panic. Sliding my butt back, cracking the throttle on from overrun into coast relieves the pressure and instantly stabilises the bike. If I enter a corner overcooked, the bike is far more settled if I leave the throttle slightly on, drop my torso to the inside of the corner, and bar push firmly. Scary, but so far, dramatically successful, and it's pushing my cornering ability up slowly notch by notch.

Steve

[svr]

Yes you are right - BEFORE the corner that is. Throttling off MID corner on my heavy vtwin pushes a LOT or weight onto the front wheel. It emphatically does not like it one bit, and the nose dips and dives badly provoking even more rider panic. Sliding my butt back, cracking the throttle on from overrun into coast relieves the pressure and instantly stabilises the bike. If I enter a corner overcooked, the bike is far more settled if I leave the throttle slightly on, drop my torso to the inside of the corner, and bar push firmly. Scary, but so far, dramatically successful, and it's pushing my cornering ability up slowly notch by notch.

Steve

True - I turn the idle up when I race my sv (best to fit slipper clutch...)
Also good to leave the gas on (i.e. neutral) when the corner tightens - use the rear brake. This is more natural on left handers. This works on exits too - hitting the rear brake is almost always better than chopping the gas.

[wysper]

Thanks everyone for your posts in this thread.
It has been good to know that I am sort of on the right track.

Now just to try some of the things suggested.


:wari:

[HenryDorsetCase]

I have been reading the threads on things like trail braking and it has made me think about cornering technique on the road - not the track.

I am a very conservative rider and therefore tend to err on the side of caution on such things as speed, lean angle etc.

So when picking a cornering speed and line my aim is to pick a line that I can go through without having to adjust my line (assuming no hazzards appear and I have read the corner correctly) and without breaking. Just leaving the fun part of accelerating out of the corner. I figure I have misread a corner if I have to change my line or speed in it. (possibly also just my lack of skill :laugh:)

Is it ok to be going in "hot" and staying on the breaks right up to the apex?
Or is that just another method of getting though the corner faster?

I am wondering that if I get my initial technique right then the confidence to go a bit faster and harder will come. Trust in my own skills and in the capabilities of the bike.

I would rather look to create a good habit and work from there rather than just go hard and hope to survive.

Thoughts?

YOu are describing trail braking up to the apex then accelerating out?. Its good fun to do but if you want to practice, try it on a trackday because its one extra thing you will be thinking about if trying to do it on the road.

remember that your front tyre has only 100 traction points available at any given time and you are asking it to do two things at once going in hot. The first is brake and the second is steer. Fine so long as those two inputs dont exceed your 100 available points. Remember too that your lean angle will increase as well as you approach the apex (which means you need more traction points and less braking points which you have to modulate in real time while approaching a corner "hot").

I tend to think that if you are riding hard enough to need to trail brake up to the apex, you're riding a bit hard for the road. I try and be a "slow in fast out" rider with braking done upright before corner entry, nice easy transition off the brakes, peel er in nice constant frottle, then stand er up and gas it. This means I am slower than a wet week on "Wet Island" the well known holiday spot for people who like rain.

[HenryDorsetCase]

6. If you have to lose speed in a corner a good technique is keep the gas on a little, but drag the REAR brake. the bike will slow and turn instead of standing up and trying to put you in the hedge.
Just my view...

You know, I have never ever tried that. Going to give it a whirl this weekend, see what happens. I very rarely use the rear brake ever, even on track.

Fasninating. I know just the corner to practice it on too.

Cheers!

[HenryDorsetCase]

Sorry... My problem (among several...) is people punching holes in the scenery because they misuse the front brake, which is a bit of a waste.
I know braking in corners is a normal part of riding, I was more talking down the use of trail braking as a sport riding technique, which I would strongly discourage for the reasons above. I'd always wondered why this track technique felt so out of place on the road - this thread was just a chance to think about it and write it down.

I agree about the SV - it may be labelled `a girls bike' but suzuki hit on something there (just costs 5 k to finish what they started...)

why i sold mine. then promptly spent the extra five k upgrading and another two upgrading what I upgraded to!

[CookMySock]

I cannot get my head past "braking with the rear at large-lean will low-side me". Perhaps if I am seated well-back. Biking is such a head thing.. :weird:

Steve

[pritch]

Some good thoughts here.

For those new to using the back brake in a corner it can be worth adjusting the back brake so it won't quite lock the wheel before you head out to practice.

Books I have counsel practicing using the brakes from whatever speed you ride at. (But not when there's a truck up your arse of course...) Makes sense.

I seem to recall that some also suggest that since you may one day wish to use the front brakes in a corner that it it is appropriate to practice doing that too. Gently at first! In fact gently at second and third would probably be good too :whistle:

[bully]

ok, im just learning too... iv looked at a few of these treads and figure i have somthing nobody has said which maybe confusing, correct me if im wrong.
i agree throttle just on thru the corner is great, but i have found when first starting i was doing that, but the revs were too slow, and found higher revs helped, somthing about circular forces. mayb its just on a il4 im not sure, but i try about mid range revs.low revs seemed to make me run wide.
so to sumerise, throttle just cracked but at a reasonable mid revs.

[pritch]

i agree throttle just on thru the corner is great, but i have found when first starting i was doing that, but the revs were too slow, .

You have to be in the right gear. I think the usual quote is "Select a responsive gear". You don't want the engine lugging and you don't want it revving its head off, but you want it to able to respond to the throttle immediately.

[rocketman1]

Some interesting comments here, its very difficult to describe how to corner isn't it?
There are many variations, but basically they tend to follow the same idea, as can be ascertained in the previous threads
I have read that 48% of motorcycle accidents happen on corners so this is an important thread, most I would say involve too faster entry speed. It sure is not nice to find you have entered a corner too fast for your ability I havedone it once or twice, always on roads I have never been on before. To naturally react as previous scribes above to save this type of situation would in my experience take a fair amount of practice, and confidence, to panic is the natural reaction. We need to eliminate panic from our brains!!!
One must "push the envelope" so to speak, you cannot learn how to corner fast, if you you don't try to go faster into corners and "gently" frighten your self a little bit to start with...I guess thats why it best to try and practice all this stuff on a track first and not the road, in saying that
I see many bikes on the open road cornering too fast in my opinion, to be travelling fast around blind corners at extreme lean angles is stupidity, you can never know that there is not gravel, oil, large potholes, a parked truck etc around the corner. I guess youth/ inexperience cancels all those reasons out though.
Hey
I try to go slow in, fast out. But when you don't know the corner how fast is "SLOW IN"... I guess that is why the statistic is at 48%..
Safe Riding and many thousand kms of awesome cornering

[Chrislost]

Deliberatly trail braking into a corner means using up more of your available grip as you enter, and therefore isn't a smart move on the road, and has infact got me into trouble in the past (the rustle in Russell).


I have once or twice done this to "test" how much grip a road/tyre. has. also like to trail brake in the wet as loosing the rear makes you fall over lots slower than the front





(also useful round white line, gravel, oil, petrol stations, mates lawns.....)

[Skyryder]

Have not read all of this but my take on cornering is simple. Brake before you have angled the bike and power out of the corner. If you have to brake when the bike is on the lean and before you have reached the apex you have come in to hard and if something is to go wrong there is not a lot of room to get out. Less if traffic is coming into you. The secret for hard cornering is not the line of the bike but the line of your eyesight. Keep your eyes focused on the 'vanishing point.' Where you look is where you go.


Skyryder

[Motu]

If you have to use the ''vanishing point'' method in a corner - you've already fucked up.Everything follows corner entry,fuck up the entry and you're in trouble.Simple as that as far as I'm concerned - if you are having to take corrective action anywhere in the corner,you got it wrong coming in.Go back to the start.....

[bikemike]

Back to front. If your entry speed is buggered it's possibly because you weren't using the vanishing point properly.

VP is everywhere. Use it on the straights and throughout every corner, including entry. I'm sure Skyrider meant this??

[wysper]

All your replies have been great. I have got a couple of great tips off it.

Assuming I pick my corner line correctly and gauge my entry speed correctly things are off to an excellent start.

To help with the actual corner and gain confidence to perhaps corner a little more quickly, my two favourite tips so far are

1. Look where you want to go! As someone else mentioned on this thread - this works really well on roundabouts too (hammyhole has lots of them). If you look just in front of you your roundabout journey is awkward. Really I should know this - playing any ball sport (for me hockey and football) When you shoot at goal you look where you want the ball to go NOT at the obstacle ie goalie.

2. Kiss the mirrors - sounded really weird - but has helped me get my body into a better position on the bike. As yet I havent managed to actually kiss the mirrors. But I imagine if I do I will be in a whole world of trouble :crazy:

[The Stranger]

2. Kiss the mirrors - sounded really weird - but has helped me get my body into a better position on the bike. As yet I havent managed to actually kiss the mirrors. But I imagine if I do I will be in a whole world of trouble :crazy:

Ah, now I know why there are always lip marks on my bathroom mirror when R6_Kid has been here.

So how do you judge the appropriate speed for a corner?
Do you find that at times you overcook or at other times you slow down more than required and get through the corner thinking, damn I could have done that safely twice as fast?

[MSTRS]

Ah, now I know why there are always lip marks on my bathroom mirror when R6_Kid has been here.

So how do you judge the appropriate speed for a corner?
Do you find that at times you overcook or at other times you slow down more than required and get through the corner thinking, damn I could have done that safely twice as fast?

By being (at least peripherally) aware of the vanishing point(s) ahead. If it's at a constant distance from you, your speed is right. If it is getting further away, you may safely speed up. But if it is getting closer, you are too fast. How rapidly it approaches will determine how badly you fucked up.

[CookMySock]

If my face is near a mirror I am too far forward on my bike. My shoulders are over the bars, not behind them, and its hard to put much force on the bars because I'm leaning heavily on them and I have no leverage. Also my front is more jittery with this much weight on it. My bike is far more settled if I sit right back, and its much easier to push directly on the bars. I'm just learning this myself though.

I tried sliding my butt off the seat slightly, and boy does she wanna corner now! Whew! Butt+shoulders out = LOTS of opposite bar push before the corner. Curious.

I clipped my boot on the ground doing this the other day - first time ever! Gave me quite a fright! :clap:

Steve

[Skyryder]

Back to front. If your entry speed is buggered it's possibly because you weren't using the vanishing point properly.

VP is everywhere. Use it on the straights and throughout every corner, including entry. I'm sure Skyrider meant this??


Absolutely. It's when you lose the VP custard appears everywhere.

Skyryder

[Skyryder]

By being (at least peripherally) aware of the vanishing point(s) ahead. If it's at a constant distance from you, your speed is right. If it is getting further away, you may safely speed up. But if it is getting closer, you are too fast. How rapidly it approaches will determine how badly you fucked up.



That's spot on. Best post of the thread.

Skyryder

[CookMySock]

if you are having to take corrective action anywhere in the corner,you got it wrong coming in.Go back to the start.....hrm, I struggle with this. My young fella (15 y/o learner) was complaining "once I have initially set the corner up its incredibly hard to change it." I told him "Concentrate and steer with the bars, dude. Pick your position on the road and stick to it like poo to a furry blanket. Don't leave your chosen line - unless you are forced to make a new plan. Develop your discipline."

I took it that he was repeating a mistake that I made earlier, "estimate what my turning radius I will need and set it up in one go - no resteering." This left me holding my breath with my arms locked mid-corner, and accepting the outcome no matter what. I had to relax and breathe and just steer - the smoother the better.

Steve

[Katman]

My young fella (15 y/o learner) was complaining "once I have initially set the corner up its incredibly hard to change it." I told him "Concentrate and steer with the bars, dude. Pick your position on the road and stick to it like poo to a furry blanket. Don't leave your chosen line - unless you are forced to make a new plan. Develop your discipline."



Why not suggest he goes in slower so he has the ability to change his line easier?

[The Stranger]

That's spot on. Best post of the thread.

Skyryder

Hey, what about the cunt who had the forethought to ask the question in the first place?

[CookMySock]

Why not suggest he goes in slower so he has the ability to change his line easier?Well I can take the corner at 120k, and he's taking it at 85k. I guess I could ask him to slow down, but he already knows how to nana a corner - why not teach him the correct procedure, rather than just prevent him from learning? He is well in control of his emotional state, and well inside his ability. So thats why.


Steve

[The Stranger]

Well I can take the corner at 120k, and he's taking it at 85k. I guess I could ask him to slow down, but he already knows how to nana a corner - why not teach him the correct procedure, rather than just prevent him from learning? He is well in control of his emotional state, and well inside his ability. So thats why.


Steve

Only really leaves the teacher then.

[Katman]

Well I can take the corner at 120k, and he's taking it at 85k. I guess I could ask him to slow down, but he already knows how to nana a corner - why not teach him the correct procedure, rather than just prevent him from learning? He is well in control of his emotional state, and well inside his ability. So thats why.


Steve

Correct procedure?

My idea of correct procedure is learning gradually as you gain experience.

Trying to become Rossi overnight just aint gonna work.

[blue eyed savage]

i kiss the mirrors, look where i want to go get in there nice and deep like i mean Brake deep into the corner ass 1/2 of the seat and wait up the outside peg then give it shit.
and yes i am the man.

[blue eyed savage]

just kidding. take it ez. brake in a strate line works well and slow speed into the corner and u cant go wrong. well to badly wrong. ride heeps and ride with mates brings ur skill level up faster to.

[scumdog]

Meh, I just go around the corners.

To do otherwise is asking for trouble.

[idb]

Meh, I just go around the corners.

To do otherwise is asking for trouble.

...otherwise they might as well not be there...

[scumdog]

...otherwise they might as well not be there...

Corners or troubles???:confused:

[idb]

Corners or troubles???:confused:

Crikey...8,000 posts SD!!!!

[scumdog]

Crikey...8,000 posts SD!!!!

Jumping Jehosephats Batman, that's more posts than the national grid!!!!!!

[KiwiKat]

Don't break the corners, they are hard to fix.

Graham Allardices (recommended AAA+) book is fantastic for understanding riding basics in NZ. Personally I find that every other more experienced rider goes too fast through corners for me. They will brake after I do or use engine braking. I have to brake earlier or carefully ride the brake particularly down hill.

I hate the broken up surfaces on sharp corners and the bike skating.

[jrandom]

Personally I find that every other more experienced rider goes to fast through corners.

Yeah, those more experienced riders are cunts, what with going 'too fast' through corners and all that.

:lol:

[pritch]

If my face is near a mirror I am too far forward on my bike.

The "kiss the mirror" quote refers to getting your head (and body) right over to the inside of the corner. My current avatar sort of illustrates the correct position, even though he hasn't got a mirror. He is supposed to be quite good at what he does though...

If you look at most of the action shots of KBers their head is over the wrong side of the bike. This probably results from them trying to get a knee down. They sort of swivel their arse and push the bike down.

But hey I'm old, I don't even know why I'm interested in any of this stuff:whistle:

[stormerUK]

Cornering is what biking is all about – It’s the activity we enjoy a lot and is probably the most rewarding experience when we get it right. Many riders however, seem to come to grief by getting it wrong; as accident statistics seem to indicate.
Let us look at cornering and apply the system of motorcycle control as described in Roadcraft.
The System – Information – Position – Speed – Gear – Acceleration
What do we need to know:
Where does the road go next?
How sharp is the bend?
How far can I see ahead clearly?
What is the road surface like?
What dangers could there be?
Can I stop safely if necessary?
Getting the approach to a bend right is vital and makes cornering safer.
Approaching a bend – Information – look for all the clues – use extended forward observations – can you see where the road goes next? What’s behind as we prepare – know your Highway Code to understand signs; road markings and chevrons etc. Take into account the road surface and camber. Consider the actions of the traffic ahead – are they braking? How fast are oncoming vehicles travelling when exiting the bend? Consider what hidden dangers may lurk ahead just out of view – junctions, slower vehicles, pedestrians, cyclists, horses etc.
Limit point – the furthest point we can see the road surface ahead where the verges appear to converge. As we approach does that point remain static or is it moving away already?
Guide – while the limit point remains static we should be slowing down. If its moving away we can go through the bend at that same speed.
By using the limit point we can assess the tightness of the bend and have a guide to the safe speed to be at when we reach the entry point to the bend. Therefore, on a tighter bend the limit point will remain static longer – we will be reducing speed for longer and should have slowed down more before the entry point, while bearing in mind the golden rule – always be able to stop safely in the distance you can see to be clear (on your own side of the road).
Entry point – where you start to turn the bike into the bend.
Guide – this will be the slowest point of the bend with maximum safe forward view
So using the system, we need to be in the correct position for maximum forward view while considering stability and grip and using safety as the overriding rule. The optimum line must be conceded if that could bring us into conflict with oncoming vehicles or mean riding over gravel or potholes for instance.
We need to be at the correct speed by using all the information, good forward observations and limit point analysis. We need to be in the correct gear for best engine response to allow some speed adjustment with sensitive throttle control in the bend and the bike should be well settled before we reach the entry point, and we should be relaxed.
Guide – most bikes will give good response at about ½ way up the rev range
This response will help the bike to turn and allow better control – holding a wide smooth line through the bend. Do not apex the bend unless you have a clear view well ahead, and there is an advantage to be gained.
Counter steering – positive steering input by applying pressure to the bars is required to get the bike from upright to the correct lean angle for the corner. The tighter the bend or the higher the approach speed will determine the amount of force required to get the bike to turn at the entry point with the objective of getting the bike into the desired attitude in one movement and then controlling the bike on the throttle through the rest of the bend. You already do this or the bike wouldn’t turn, but a conscious effort at the correct moment is very effective, and necessary when dealing with a series of bends or an island where we require the bike to go from one side to the other and back again in a smooth controlled manner.
Exit point – look for the end of the bend where the road straightens out. The end of a solid white line gives us a clue, and as the forward view opens up chase the limit point (acceleration) as it moves away bringing the bike to the desired road position again.
The way we deal with each bend should not be taken in isolation but as part of the overall riding plan. Good forward planning will help us link hazards and give a smoother flowing line.
Control the fear – use your head! Cornering on a bike is not a natural activity – just the opposite in fact! If we think we’re going too quickly for a particular bend our natural reaction will be to tense up, grab for the brake and target fixate on the perceived danger. The bike will want to stand up and go where we are looking, this is our survival instinct taking over. To corner safely and effectively we must do just the opposite of what our instinct tells us to do. We must relax and look away from the danger to where we actually want the bike to go. A positive push on the bars is required while applying some power. This technique requires correct understanding and enough practice to make it second nature, so that when a ‘moment’ occurs we will have the presence of mind to use the technique confidently. If we allow the fear factor to take over things will probably go wrong, but by applying the correct technique we should get round the bend successfully. We tend to be the limiting factor as the modern bike is a very capable machine.
Guide – so in essence we turn the bike positively, look where we want to go, and apply some power to offset the reduction in speed caused by turning the bike, and drive through the bend smoothly on an opening throttle
Getting a series of bends right is a great feeling and is reason enough to make every effort to improve our cornering skills.

[WierNixie]

I have read all of this with interest, as cornering is not something that I do confidently (yet). I have a question for the bikers in the know.

Cornering downhill, with sharp corner. For some reason, my instinctive action is to brake, change down and corner more slowly. (And I mean S L O W L Y). I do go out to practice, however I am convinced that my technique is incorrect in this situation, and secondly that a driver is going to hit me up the 'botty' because I have slowed down too much. Even scooters have a better technique than I do going downhill!

Advice anyone?

[vifferman]

Downhill corners are the nemesis of a lot of riders. (I myself prefer uphill corners). The thing is that there's a lot more weight on the front end, which changes the steering geometry (sharpens it up) and the handling characteristics (the centre of mass is further forward), and loads up the front tyre. In theory, this should make tight, downhill corners better than uphill corners (as long as you're not leaning hard on the bars).
I suspect it's one of those "it's all in the head" things. Apart from psyching yourself into it, and maybe making sure your weight is on the inside of the bike, and possibly leaning back a bit to even out the weight distribution, there should be no real difference in how you tackle these corners. By slowing, braking, etc., you're quite possibly making things worse. I guess you just need to practice, practice, practice, and get your confidence up.

[The Stranger]

I have read all of this with interest, as cornering is not something that I do confidently (yet). I have a question for the bikers in the know.

Cornering downhill, with sharp corner. For some reason, my instinctive action is to brake, change down and corner more slowly. (And I mean S L O W L Y). I do go out to practice, however I am convinced that my technique is incorrect in this situation, and secondly that a driver is going to hit me up the 'botty' because I have slowed down too much. Even scooters have a better technique than I do going downhill!

Advice anyone?

Ok, I know, broken record, but I would suggest the RRRS course on the 18th of Jan as a good place to start.

[WierNixie]

Downhill corners are the nemesis of a lot of riders. (I myself prefer uphill corners). The thing is that there's a lot more weight on the front end, which changes the steering geometry (sharpens it up) and the handling characteristics (the centre of mass is further forward), and loads up the front tyre. In theory, this should make tight, downhill corners better than uphill corners (as long as you're not leaning hard on the bars).
I suspect it's one of those "it's all in the head" things. Apart from psyching yourself into it, and maybe making sure your weight is on the inside of the bike, and possibly leaning back a bit to even out the weight distribution, there should be no real difference in how you tackle these corners. By slowing, braking, etc., you're quite possibly making things worse. I guess you just need to practice, practice, practice, and get your confidence up.
Totally believe I am making it worse but don't know what to do if I don't brake & slow down. Sheesh.

[vifferman]

Totally believe I am making it worse but don't know what to do if I don't brake & slow down. Sheesh.
Are you looking through these corners, or at them?
If you're looking through the corner, you'll be setting yourself up for the next corner (if there is one in sight) or for the exit of the current corner.
If you're looking at the corner, and worrying, then you'll more than likely stuff it up.
Remember: your bike can (if handled right) go through the corners much faster than you think you can.

[AlBundy]

Is said downhill corner flat or off-camber?

If it is off camber, it tends to be a mind game more often than not...

For any given lean angle from vertical, you are using more tyre due to the roads angle. Not an issue unless you are going fast though...

Ultimately though, slowing down to a speed you are comfortable with, is a safe option...

Look where you want to go, relax and keep your arms bent... It's not a race, learn at your pace.

Try to pick some of the mentors' brains... There's a lot of tips to be had...

[swbarnett]

For any given lean angle from vertical, you are using more tyre due to the roads angle.
On a circular cross section the angle to the road doesn't change the size of the contact patch. Or am I missing something?

[WierNixie]

These are usually sharp corners, downhill, where I cannot see round the corner easily (usually cannot see round the corner until actually into the corner). I can't really find a place to 'practice' these except where there is traffic.

[AlBundy]

On a circular cross section the angle to the road doesn't change the size of the contact patch. Or am I missing something?

I'm implying there's a psychological aspect, that you are leaning more than you think.

Assuming a tyre has 45 degrees of contact available, then if a road was off camber by 10 degrees, you can theoretically lean 35 degrees before you run out of tyre.

All I'm saying, is perceptions are what makes us ride comfortably at our given speeds. With experience or decent training (which I'm NOT claiming to give), we can alter those perceptions somewhat...

[AlBundy]

These are usually sharp corners, downhill, where I cannot see round the corner easily (usually cannot see round the corner until actually into the corner). I can't really find a place to 'practice' these except where there is traffic.

Assuming you are comfortable with the speed for now, reading the road is a good exercise. Blind corners will always be a point of concern.
Scanning the surface ahead as well as determining whether the road is tightening or opening may yield better progress.
Road knowledge is good, it means you can concentrate on other things while going up and down.

How well do you know the road?

[swbarnett]

I'm implying there's a psychological aspect, that you are leaning more than you think. ...
I just reread your first post and realised that I'd read it wrong. I thought you meant more tyre touching the road. You actually were talking about the road being closer to the upper edge of the tyre. Got it now.

[quickbuck]

These are usually sharp corners, downhill, where I cannot see round the corner easily (usually cannot see round the corner until actually into the corner). I can't really find a place to 'practice' these except where there is traffic.

If you can not see around the corner, then you look for what is termed the Vanishing Point.
This is the point where the objects on the left side of the road appear to meet the objects on the right.
Keep your eyes pinned on this point in order for your bike to go around the corner smoothly.
If this point comes closer then the corner is about to tighten, thus roll off the throttle.
If the point gets farther away, then you can afford to roll on the throttle.. .assuming the road surface allows it.
Just because you can, doesn't make it safe.

Your corner speed will increase with practice. But be aware, if you can't see the exit, then ANYTHING could be around there, and you may not have time to react. Take it easy... the speed will come.

[Crisis management]

Totally believe I am making it worse but don't know what to do if I don't brake & slow down. Sheesh.

On a completely (not entirely) different tangent and in addition to all the advice you have received.....how about just go for a longer ride? I've been riding and falling off successfully for almost 40 years and yet when i've not been on the bike for a day or two it still takes me 30 minutes to settle into the groove and stop stuffing things up.
My riding improves the longer the ride and the more I settle into it (I'm talking a couple of hundred Kms here) and maybe you will find if you just pootle off for a couple of hours at a time, not worrying about your technique, it will begin to fall into place.
Once you begin to relax and trust the tyres and bike it will all fall into place and your cornering will improve.

And do the RRRS course.


Enjoy.

[The Pastor]

Correct procedure?

My idea of correct procedure is learning gradually as you gain experience.

Trying to become Rossi overnight just aint gonna work.
totally agree, push it to your limit every day, gradually you will get better (i.e., faster)

[BMWST?]

wow good posts....the mere act of beginning to turn starts to slow you down.
Trail braking..i would only do this on)roads I know,ir if i have misjudged a corner slightly.or if i ma Trail braking to me means mostly the front brake,but it is modulated,ie by the time the bike is at the apex the front brake is off....bigger heavier bikes will tend to try and stand up but you compensate for this cos you know....you gotta be smooth..buy an old soft suspension shaft drive bike to learn smooth cornering techniques :)

[svr]

Is said downhill corner flat or off-camber?

If it is off camber, it tends to be a mind game more often than not...

Ultimately though, slowing down to a speed you are comfortable with, is a safe option...



There is a lot less grip available on negative camber as the bike is trying to slide downhill. Tyres also work a lot better when `loaded' i.e. pushed into the tarmac.

Most riders get into trouble `slowing down to a comfortable speed' at the wrong time. Better, safer riders understand the limts of available grip and are comfortable using more of their bikes' cornering performance when required.

[OutForADuck]

IMHO `trail braking' is out of place on the road for these reasons:
1. Its not required on spriral / constant arc / spiral corners of public roads, mainly just the bastard decreasing radius corners found on every track.
2. The front brake is the most powerful control on a motorcycle. If you're trailing it into every corner, and something unexpected causes you to panic, you'll tend to grab the brake too hard, which is Very Bad.
3. Its a technique to get the last second or so on the track. Safety is the main concern on the road.
4. Bruce Anstey, possibly the worlds best public roads racer, doesn't trail brake much, if at all. Maybe it held him back on the track, but it didn't on the roads. Roads are different.
5. Bikes handle better with the power on - slower in and gas out gives more precise riding and better visibilty
6. If you have to lose speed in a corner a good technique is keep the gas on a little, but drag the REAR brake. the bike will slow and turn instead of standing up and trying to put you in the hedge.
Just my view...

Get on the power in corner.. brake (trail) if you don't have enough room to get it done before meaning you messed up. Rossi even has a let go brake marker which is early in the corner.. bet if he's on the road it before he even pitches in...

Breaking loads the front and unsettles the bike mid corner if you have to let go then.

[stormerUK]

Downhill blind corners have to be approached with the engine braking ability more pronounced i.e instead of the rev needle just 1/2 way round the clock the needle needs to be in between your max power revs and max torque revs. These figures will be in your manual and best marked by two bits of tape on the rev counter glass. This will enable you to dump more speed via the rear wheel slowing and then apply throttle to chase the vanishing point and thus move some of the turning/braking force off the front tyre enabling more tyre footprint trade off and more grip.