riding with lights on or off

[marty]

Over the weeknd i saw heaps of bikes out riding during the day without their headlights on. Big cruisers are the most noticeable to do this. Who is for/against this? I have adjusted the headlights in my gixxer so that they run on high beam all the time, but in a low (dipped) position. I reckon it makes a huge difference to cage driver's perception of how close/big/fast you are. If i turn off my lights during the day i always have people pulling out in front of me/not getting out of my way gggrrrrrrrrr

[jrandom]

I suppose this would be limited to bikes that don't come with the lights hard-wired on with the ignition. Given that most cruisers are stuck in the 50s, style and technology-wise, your observations are probably apropos.

As you pointed out, there's a good reason why most bikes come with always-on lights these days, which is that a big bright light tends to make things more noticeable.

You've adjusted the headlight aim on your bike? What do you do when you need a 'real' high beam? Twisty back roads at night, etc? And doesn't the WOF require certain pointy-direction headlight levels at low and high beam settings?

Pisses me off when I see bikes riding around with their high beams on. It's *still* too bloody bright to have right in your eyes when you're coming t'other way.

[SpankMe]

Like most new bikes, my lights can't be turned off. In Oz, it's the law to ride during the day with your lights on and since we are lumped in with them we get OZ spec'd bikes.

But I always ride during the day with my lights on high beam because cage drivers are blind to bikes.

[jrandom]

Originally posted by SpankMe
But I always ride during the day with my lights on high beam because cage drivers are blind to bikes.

Ah, so *you're* one of the evil ones! It blindses us, precious, nasssty bright lights...

Actually, TBH... it's only when on the bike that I've noticed high-beams on other bikes. So the effect on cage drivers is most likely entirely positive.

[mangell6]

A rider who does not have their bike lights on has to have a lot of faith in other vehicles seeing them. How many times have you heard "I never saw the bike!" and known that a fellow rider was down. :(

Years ago I nearly killed a guy on a bike as I never saw him, I pulled out on to the main road after looking and then made a split decision not to turn right at the next intersection 10m later. The significance is that this was the first time in months that I had NOT turned right. He abused me as he went past less than an arms lenth away (at least it seemed that close) and rightly so. Still to this day I have no idea if he had is light on.

IMNSHO your odds of having an accident with another vehicle are increased astronomically if you don't have your lights on.

I know that wkid_1 has his lights on full beam, :niceone: really blinded me as he crested a corner but I saw him.

I ride with lights on dip during the day, however on really bright days or heavy traffic in summer the lights are on highbeam. The Mount is really bad for blind people in the summer :D and I really keep a careful watch.

Even in the car I have the lights on during 'gloomy' or rainy days, purely based on the premise that people are taught to "steer" a vehicle not to "drive" a vehicle.

Mike

[Lee Rusty]

lights on is a good idea - lights on full is not.

[merv]

1973 was the year I remember the lights on campaign started and I have always ridden on-road with the lights on since. If I remember rightly they used a brightly coloured poster of a Yamaha 200 twin at the time. Now I ride off-road with my lights on too, because my DR250R is like my VFR and you can't turn the lights off.

Lights on low beam is the way to go because there is no point pissing people off using high beam in the face of oncoming traffic.

Riding in groups the guys that I think are silly are the ones who have those dicky systems with their indicators wired to be on all the time. They think it helps to be seen and they leave their headlight off - wrong!! The problem with using any lights like that is they give a bad perception of the distance they are away and are a pain to oncoming traffic and if they approach from behind, as they look so weak in your mirrors. Its is a similar problem to the dicks that drive their cars with the parking lights on. As it gets darker it looks like they are a car miles away and can lead to others passing and facing them head on when they shouldn't be. If they read a road code ever in their lives they would know that the rule is to drive with dipped headlights or high beam when there is no oncoming traffic or you are not following someone. Nowhere does it say that it is legal to drive with parking lights on.

A decent headlight is all you need to be seen from a distance.

[jrandom]

Originally posted by Lee Rusty
lights on is a good idea - lights on full is not.

[Nitpicking git mode]

As you can see from my posts above, I agree, but perhaps you'd like to back up your declarative statement with relevant reasoning?

Arguments by assertion do not a discussion forum make.

[/NGM]

[DeanOh]

Originally posted by SpankMe
But I always ride during the day with my lights on high beam because cage drivers are blind to bikes.


Me too. Especially since the SV's only use one headlight for lowbeam (2 for high).
Rather be visible than dead.:yes:

[Coldkiwi]

as I do more than my share of lane splitting, I have an indicator flashing and headlight on full beam when going past cars... when you're at close quarters and along side, it lines the lights up nicely with their bleary eyes (ha ha) and many of them seem to spot me which is all good.

I personally think 'hardwiring' the indicators to the headlight is a good idea. I've found that arrangement to be particularly noticable on other bikes. its an unusual lighting arrangement that gets your attention and at night gives you the clear indication that its not just a car with one headlight out. But never would i consider having the main headlight off, day or night.

[Sharkey]

I remember reading a letter to the editor by some fool of a cage driver moaning about other cars driving with their lights on, and how distracting it is. Seems to me that the more "distracting" it is the better, especially on a bike. Therefore I am a firm believer in lights on. Of course that didn't help much when a chump ran a red in front of me.

I also agree with Coldkiwi that hard wired indicators are very attention grabbing, and thus good.

Maybe a new innovation could be lighting bikes up like trucks - fairy lights glittering away. How pretty.

[Slim]

Originally posted by merv
1973 was the year I remember the lights on campaign started and I have always ridden on-road with the lights on since.
Hmmm. Showing your age a bit there, Merv!!! :D


I've always ridden with lights on, but I have no idea who started me on that one.

The lights get turned on on my c@r as soon as I leave city limits, rain or shine too.

:)

[wkid_one]

Remember tho - that with your lights on highbeam - it is harder for a car driver to judge your speed!!!

[Motu]

I ride with my lights on because it saves the regulator/altenator.

I disagree with those who put their lights on and then ''think'' that car drivers can see them - you stupid fuck! that's the way to kill youself! Doesn't matter if you have your lights on full beam and air horns going with full eye contact - the dickhead can still pull out on you!

Put your lights on to save the electrics - not to protect yourself...YOU do that!

[RiceBurner]

If anyone rides near me on a bike with full beams......


I WILL PUNCH THEIR LIGHTS OUT!!! :angry2: :angry2: :angry2: :argh: :argh:

it does NOTHING for your safety, in fact it can disguise your actual appearance and approach speed, PLUS it can irritate car drivers far more than is necessary.

If I see a bike in heavy traffic - eg riding through the London Rush Hour with Full beams on - I WILL STOP HIM AND HAVE WORDS! :angry2:

It's akin to riding around with your horn FULL ON ALL THE TIME - ie - BLOODY IRRITATING and totally unnecessary if you're riding properly.

If you think you need lights on to help your safety - then you NEED to improve your observation and hazard awareness skills. the ONLY person you can rely on to keep you safe is YOU!!


Also - think about this - if you're coming over a crest with the sun behind you, and you have your lights on - what do you think can be seen of you??? absolutely nothing - all a car driver at the junction ahead can see is light - lots and lots of light. Without a headlight on you stand a chance of casting your silhouette forwards and thus being seen.




sorry - didn't set out to rant today, but it's something that really pisses me off.

[RiceBurner]

Originally posted by Motu
I ride with my lights on because it saves the regulator/altenator.

I disagree with those who put their lights on and then ''think'' that car drivers can see them - you stupid fuck! that's the way to kill youself! Doesn't matter if you have your lights on full beam and air horns going with full eye contact - the dickhead can still pull out on you!

Put your lights on to save the electrics - not to protect yourself...YOU do that!


umm - don't quite understand this - surely the bike has been designed to run with the lights off as well as with them on??


Fully agree (as is obvious) with the last 3 words. :)

[wkid_one]

Shut yours eye - then whether your lights are on or off won't matter

[SPman]

Originally posted by RiceBurner
If anyone rides near me on a bike with full beams......
I WILL PUNCH THEIR LIGHTS OUT!!! :angry2: :angry2: :angry2: :argh: :argh: ..................

..........................
 it's something that really pisses me off.

Me too.! :niceone:

I've had 2 bikes coming towards me in the last week with blazing full beams and I felt like running into the inconsiderate pricks! :argh:

[wkid_one]

On the premise of being visible - you could always do any or all of the following:


Ride a yellow/lime green or similar bike
Go to Repco and get those cool 'go faster' blue lights
Get some "Tirefly" LCD Valve Caps (ignoring the safety issue with them)
Go to JayCay and get some cool green neon for around the radiator and under the seat
Get some designer hot pink leathers
Go to Mitre Ten and get some Halogen Work lamps to replace your standard headlights
Go down to Yamaha Marine and pick up a Fog Horn
Take your muffler off
Get a chopper flag
Borrow your brothers ghetto blaster and strap it to the pillion seat playing New Kids on the Block
GO to an Army Surplus store and plaster your bike in glow sticks
Hire a police escort everywhere you ride


My advice however, is just pay attention to what you are doing and ride safely.........you can have all the safety devices in the world - but you are the one riding your bike and you are the one who avoids hazards....having a headlight on will hardly stand up for 'no liability' in court if you are doing 65kph in a 50 zone, it is a false sense of security.....

 

[Redstar]

tiz true that your lights on Will increase the life of your rectifier!
why? its electrical basics. the Japs produce current to cope with worse case senaraios starter current. everything is marginal in design. pump out enough to guarentee a clean start under load. downside too much current under normal conditions. your bike has to start in scandanavia at christmas and Omaha in February so they give it the upper output and us kiwis have to shave off the current with the headlights on to stop the regulator from frying.
some Bikes are insensitive to this and Harleys have such robust systems that you can suit yourself but my Kawa has fried one and I anit about to fry another so lights on.. havin said that I think full beam is a bit OTT.

[750Y]

I ride with my high beams on however as other vehicles approach and vice versa I dip them back to low beam. I feel satisfied that 1: I have initially and momentarily been more noticeable/visible.(my main intent)
2: The change from High to low beams is a noticeable action which I think draws people's attention, thereby, further promoting my presence on the road, and also indicates that You are being considerate thereby promoting goodwill between motorcyclists and car drivers.(of course courtesy is wasted on the ignorant and I put 50% of all drivers in that class around Auckland.
After all the poor driving that has been thrown at me and the daily display of lazy driving habits my attitude is "be seen".

Lee:
I too would like to hear why You say it's not a good idea as I know You have a little bit of experience.

[Motu]

Originally posted by RiceBurner
umm - don't quite understand this - surely the bike has been designed to run with the lights off as well as with them on??


Fully agree (as is obvious) with the last 3 words. :)

With the lights off the reg dumps excess charge into the heat sink - part of the reg on Jap bikes,and never put in the air stream (un cool looks) putting the lights on diverts the excess to the other ends of the bike,and burns out cheaper bulbs.

I think the best rider training that could ever be given (illeagally) is to make the rider ride across the city at night with no lights - defensive riding at it's most extreme! Back in the 70s with Lucas electics this was everyday (well,night) life for us - I ride as if I am invisible,doesn't matter if I have my lights on or a dayglo vest with a naked chick on the back....I ride as if they can't see me - I stake my life on it!

[RiceBurner]

Originally posted by wkid_one
Shut yours eye - then whether your lights are on or off won't matter

You mean like most car drivers??



Also - discovered today from a Police Officer that in the UK there is an offense of "Causing Undue Dazzle" - ie from badly adjusted lights or headlights on at the wrong time.





Of course it's all academic if the cagers aren't looking.......... :(

[Lou Girardin]

I started using high beam on sunny days only, because I noticed that bikes behind me using low beam weren't much more visible than with no light. If that annoys cage drivers, tough. If it annoys other bikers, I'm sorry, but I'd rather be seen. On one occasion when both beams were out, I thought I'd become invisible, every bastard on the road tried to have me off.
Lou

[marty]

Originally posted by jrandom
.

You've adjusted the headlight aim on your bike? What do you do when you need a 'real' high beam? Twisty back roads at night, etc? And doesn't the WOF require certain pointy-direction headlight levels at low and high beam settings?



it's a 2 minute job to adjust the lights back to wof standard. i do heaps of night riding (commute 30kms in the country after late shift in the waikato fog....). probably only 1 in about 50 cars flash their lights at me so can't be too bad. i figure if about 1 in 5 cars refuse to dip their lights for me then fuck 'em. the dipped high beam thing certainly helps when splitting lanes though. i've thought about those blue lights - one in each corner of the reflector set into the headlight (saw heaps of that in the UK at xmas) intensifies the blue heaps. they use them over there to show the alarm is set too.

and twisty back roads at night just keeps ya honest! gotta watch out for possums cows rabbits goats though..........

[Big Dog]

Lights on but dipped. I can see why those with twin headlights would want them dipped.

Saw a civilian riding a police bike the other day, at 120 plus mind, and every one was giving him a wide berth!

My point though is this, reflective vests (like I used to wear on my old 250's) only make a noticeable diference if not every one is doing it. If every one wears one they just become part of the background. Which is good news for Customisers.

I ride with the lights on low. I beleive that allthough the difference it makes to visibility is low that 5% of difference to the UAV driver coming the other way with 5 noisy kids changing channel on the radio and slowly drifting into my lane is better than no additional visibility but I don't ride on high anymore because of the number of time I have seen drivers coming the other way lock their eves on my highs and drift toward it.

Oh and sv riders yes your bikes do look better with "both eyes open" just a shame it has to be on high.:done:

[merv]

Originally posted by Slim
Hmmm. Showing your age a bit there, Merv!!! :D

:)

Yeah, I was at Uni then.

The thing about 1973 it was the year that helmet wearing became compulsory too. Before that we could ride up to 30mph (kms weren't in then either) without a helmet - good for drying your hair after a shower, except for the knotting as we could all grow long hair then too. It was also the year that gas dropped in price from 49c to 48c a gallon when it was under tight control. Then early the next year it all started with the oil crisis and we had to buy cans to put our gas in before noon on Saturdays if we still wanted to drive or ride on Sundays. By 1975 we almost died when gas hit a buck a gallon, then they changed to litres and it didn't sound so bad any more.

[Motu]

Good memories Merv - we used to go for a ride - and dump our fuel on the roadside somewhere (hidden) so we could get back home again.No plastic containers then either,just tins.I used to have some small round quart tins that I could strap on the bike.These guys have it easy eh?

[merv]

The main comment I was making earlier is that you need to have lights on in a manner that are perceived by others as being at the correct distance away so they won't do anything stupid in front of you. The cage driver has to judge your distance and if you are doing 65 or more in a 50 zone they have to get it right, likewise if you are going quick on the open road.

I find the lit up indicators are stupid because they are not being used as people would perceive, similar to people driving with parking lights on, so the person who is going to get in your way can easily get it wrong. I say use your headlight on dip and let your indicators be used as indicators. If you want to add lights, perhaps the boy racer blue lights are the way to go as they are then perceptually quite different. However, at my age then you think blue light - must be towing a trailer.

The other thing I find quite irritating these days are all these blasted euro-spec cars on the road with the overly bright taillights to cope with their dismal weather - you keep thinking people are stopping up ahead as they look like brake lights from a distance. For correct perception we really need lights to at least all look nearly the same brightness at a distance. Then there might be some chance of the cage drivers getting ot right. Don't do anything to piss them off or screw up their perception of how close you are to them.

For all of you that say you ride on high beam, how many of you are pissed off by all the dicks driving their boy racer cars or SUVs with the goddam low level driving lights shining in your face? Because that is what you are doing in return if you have your lights on high. Those damn low level lights come into their own in fog when the light doesn't reflect back into your face yet so many drive with them on all the time now.

[Coldkiwi]

to who ever was quicker with their fingers than they were with their brain (can't be arsed flicking back through this):

I do not assume every prat in a cage has seen me just because i have my lights on high beam when lane splitting. If I thought that I would be rear ending cars every second day now woudn't I?

I do it because it increases the odds of someone seeing me when they casually glance in their mirror (looking over the shoulder is clearly a lost art) as they move over. I still ride with the hand twitching over the brake lever so I can stop when they pull out into my path  because legally I shouldn't be there and I have to be willing to do all I can to keep myself out of trouble.

[bluninja]

Just a simple question. Where is the evidence that riding with lights on has any effect on safety in normal daylight conditions?

I accept that there are benefits to a bikes electrical system, but so far the case has not been proven to me that they aid in rider safety. Yeah yeah...I know....lights on.....easier to see....obvious really...who needs evidence.

So what happens when all vehicles light up all the time? a bike headlight is lost amongst all the car headlights (particulalry when filtering). There's already been some posts to suggest that in certain conditions it can hide the bike, or lead to misjudgment of speed and distance....causing people to pull out WHEN they have seen you.

I tend to ride with lights on most of the time, but I would be interested in hard evidence to show the safety benefits.

TTFN

[Sharkey]

"Hard Evidence" is difficult to come by. Someone does a study, someone else does a study - you know how it is. I do know that Volvo has traditionally hard wired their lights on, and they claim all sorts of safety advantages. Other vehicle manufacturers disagree.

It seems to me that the benefits to the electrics, combined with the POTENTIAL for improved visibility is all that needs to be considered. Lights on!

[RiceBurner]

Bluninja - I can't give you hard evidence because there is none.

I can only tell you of my own experiences. (20 years riding, 16 years on road riding in all weathers, 7 years of London commuting all year round (80 mile round trips)).

I have found that it doesn't matter if you have your lights on or not (I tend to have them on becuase it has become general practise in the UK, and is better for riding with other bikers) :

If they ain't looking - they ain't gonna see you!

One interesting thing I have discovered is that traffic is more prepared to "give way" (once they've seen you) to a brightly coloured bike (eg Bright Kawasaki Green, or Reflexite-d Orange - See the MirthCycle at www.riceburner.co.uk). This worked well in London because London drivers are USED to having bikes come through - so in fact are MORE aware of bikes than most. (doesn't make it any easier though!!). This was very noticable when I moved to Nottingham for a while - the level of bike awareness was much lower, but it also worked for me a bit - on occasion I could get away with things I couldn't get away with in London (eg being a bit rude ;)). It's when you get out into the country that you have to step up the awareness.

Also if riding at NIGHT, when all the cars have their ultra-modern, ultra-bright dip beams on - bikes are INVISIBLE. So you HAVE to ride defensively, in fact - ride as if you ARE invisible. This is PERFECT practise for riding at all times.

If you assume at all times that a) they are not looking for you, and b) you ARE invisible, then you will last MUCH longer than if you are relying on cagers to see your bright lights.

Remember - the only person responsible, or indeed concerned, about your safety, is YOU.


Additionally - assuming "they're all out to get you" is bad, mmmkay, because it's negative thinking and detracts from the riding enjoyment. :)

[bluninja]

RB, agree with your comments. I've never seen any hard evidence so far (not looked really hard) most studies are inconclusive. Being a recent import to Kiwiland I too have commuted in all weathers on my bike in the UK, mostly around Portsmouth. I've even had someone inadvertantly stub a fag out on my arm when filtering on the M25 .....and I had my lights on:D

TTFN

[marty]

Originally posted by Sharkey
"Hard Evidence" is difficult to come by. Someone does a study, someone else does a study - you know how it is. I do know that Volvo has traditionally hard wired their lights on, and they claim all sorts of safety advantages.

have you ever seen a volvo moving at over the speed limit though? no wonder no-one gets hurt driving them. wouldn't wanna hit one though

[Lou Girardin]

Any evidence is purely anecdotal, except lights on laws for all vehicles in Sweden, I believe, has resulted in a fall in accidents for all vehicles.
But, we must have all noticed how much more obvious a bike is with it's lights on during the day.
Lou

[Dave]

130 decibal motogp bike is quite noticable as well- yeah, bring it on.

[Drunken Monkey]

G'day all,

Just like to add a further option you didn't discuss above - replace your standard 55/60W bulbs with 90/100W bulbs. I use the bright bulbs on low beam and don't have too much trouble being seen. It's a 5 minute job and you can always swap back your original 55/60's when you drop your bike off at a testing station for a WOF (I've never had a bike shop fail the WOF on lights).

Something else to conside, anyway.

[Coldkiwi]

good idea... provided your light housing and reflector can handle the extra heat your bulbs put out. dunno quite how you find out whether a particular model bike can handle the jandel of the upgrade other than trial and error.

[Kwaka-Kid]

yeah and/or ur magneto or whatever can take hte extra strain, by the sounds of things these modern bikes can/are made for lights to be hardwired on so if somhow turned off would fry reg/rec's all day long due to too much voltage or somthing.

anyways i spent my first year/s on the CB250 without any headlight on, i discussed it with the old man and we decided it is such an underpowerd bike anyways that we want maximum voltage heading to that little sparky :P.  hehe! was well worth it too. dont think i could have noticed difference, he says i should have.

now i try to ride with headlights on and pretty much do, but there is the odd ocassion where i forget... im SURE size/colour of bike helps... as after getting off the bright red big 750 onto ZXR400 /almost sky blue, i had 10x more near misses then usual (cage drivers fault) which put the usual figure from 10 up t oaround 100 :confused:

anyways i do agree with RB, lights or no lights, if they aint looking at you, they aint gonna see you! -yay 4 days till tracktime.

[Big Dog]

2 things first yes I do get more people seeing me on the eleven over my old 250cc.
Second, what no comment from kk about how night riding is safer without lights?
:eek:

LMAO sorry dude cheap shot but I was sure when i saw your post it would include somthing along those lines:beer:

Maybe being over 18 has finally kicked in?:cool:

[fergie]

I always have my lights on (hard wired).  in addition I always  flash my lights at any vehicles i see on a side road about to pull out into traffic, it's amazing how many cars start to move only to slam on their brakes when they catch sight of the lights.  i'm sure it's saved me on more than one occasion.

cheers

ferg

[Coldkiwi]

good call fergie... I've done that.. although you need to make sure you don't confuse them into thinking you're indicating that they should go! I don't flick them tho.. i just hit 'em with the high beams to make sure they know I'm there and have seen me

[bluninja]

Flashing your lights approaching a vehicle on a side road....you're lucky they don't pull out thinking you're signalling to them. Isn't this what the horn is for, just a quick toot to attract their attention and make them look for the source of the sound...rather than .....full on for 5 minutes chasing them AFTER they have pulled out/cut you up.

Seems to me if they are not using their eyes you need to assualt their other senses....though the smell of shit when they pull out 1 meter from your front wheel won't really help you much:D

 

TTFN

[Coldkiwi]

how timely this thread is... I had to ride the ZX-6 into work today with no headlight cause it blew after running for 5 seconds on warm up! :argh: :angry2: :angry:

so where's a good place to get H4 bulbs? I guess repco will have them if they're the same bulbs for bikes as they are for cars?

[Lou Girardin]

Try a Plus 50 bulb, Hella and Bosch do them. Much brighter, no extra heat.
lou

[Coldkiwi]

wicked  :) cheers lou. any other major pointers I should know before I pull the front end to bits to get at the headlight? its not gonna be permanently sealed is it?

[Lou Girardin]

I don't know the ZX in particular, but most bulbs are held in the reflector by a retainer and rubber boot.
Lou

[Liv, Norway]

Originally posted by Lou Girardin
Any evidence is purely anecdotal, except lights on laws for all vehicles in Sweden, I believe, has resulted in a fall in accidents for all vehicles.
But, we must have all noticed how much more obvious a bike is with it's lights on during the day.
Lou

Hi Lou and all the girls & boys!

We have to use lights here in Norway as well.
I can not turn the lights off on my Toyota or my Scarver! So when the engine is running, the lights are on.
We kall it ''kjørelys'' = ''driving light'', but it is the low beam, or it may be parking lights.

I don't normally use the high beam on my Scarver in daytime, and the same goes for my car.

:p And yes; we do have daylight here for a few hours, even in December and January! ....but I don't ride my Scarver much in the snow...

So:
Lights on? YES!

:) Liv.

[Lou Girardin]

Is the Scarver the strange looking trike that pivots behind the rider? I think I saw one on Top Gear.
Lou

[Coldkiwi]

nope... its a new quirky BMW. kinda a supermotard for the town is one way to describe it

[Big Dog]

MM aint no zx9rr but quite a sexy nekkid bike.:D

[What?]

I generally ride with lights on. I know that some drivers can not even see 40 tonne B-trains with lights on, but it still might mean one person sees me who otherwise would not.

BUT, as for riding with light on Full Beam - DON'T DO IT. The first problem is that, even in daylight, it can dazzle oncoming traffic, creating further hazards. At least, it is inconsiderate (and thereby illegal). The biggie, though, is that full beam can make you appear to be further away than you really are, and also prevent others from reasonably judging your speed. So you get 1500Kg of metal stuck in your path because the driver thought you were still 15 seconds away...:eek:

The best lights for visiblity are amber fog lights. Remember the XJ750? Hard to miss one on the road.:niceone: