Keep it this way

[SpankMe]

<img src="/images/flag_nz.gif">

Our flag is our heritage

[SPORK]

...The flag or the site? Are you saying we should only have NZ bikers?

[Blakamin]

the one on that flag site looks shite!
If the wanted a fern, make it a fern... not a fuckin grey leaf!
and I agree, people fought under that flag...
including many relos of mine (i was born in Oz, but my whole family wasn't)

[John]

I cant beleave that these 'people' of so called interlect want to change it if I see them I will happily kick there fooken ass or attack them with the ZZR (its on my side you know).

I mean what the hell, as said all the people who fought for the flag including my dad in WW2, and the nation and democracy - I mean what the hell. I cant beleave they want a referendem (sp) on it, no true 'kiwis' will resent the idea of a new flag.

In actuall fact its a bunch of half assed homo dickless/tit-less (pc) pieces of crap who want to be remebered for fucking up a country, well newsflash go eat freash fooken ass you pricks!!

(sorry its how I feel)

[sAsLEX]

eat freash fooken ass you pricks!!

(sorry its how I feel)

you seem to have spelt arse wrong, Hitcher will be after you soon....

[ZorsT]

The only problem I have with it, is that it looks too much like the australian flag, maybe they should change theirs..... :done:

[John]

you seem to have spelt arse wrong, Hitcher will be after you soon....
http://www.donkeys.net/images/FiftyRight2a.jpg

apparently quite a good "eat". :sweatdrop

[Hitcher]

Fuck I hate it when you've just spent 10 minutes drafting something erudite and witty, inadvertently hit some key sequence to watch it all evaporate into cyberspace.

Herewith the short version:

The old flag is a load of toss. It screams "colonial outpost". It looks the same as the Aussie flag (oh yes it does) and every banana republic from Guyana to Graceland.

Unfortunately the alternatives (so far) look no better. The last thing we need is a flag designed by a committee (otherwise it will get printed in natural, politically correct earth tones on hand-woven GE-free organic hemp by unionised labour...).

The Canadians were brave enough to ditch theirs in favour of a real stunner that clearly identifies their country. Let's do something similar.

Let's get rid of that old shite sheet!

[Blakamin]

The only problem I have with it, is that it looks too much like the australian flag, maybe they should change theirs..... :done:
:finger: special just for you!

[Hitcher]

I cant beleave that these 'people' of so called interlect want to change it if I see them I will happily kick there fooken ass
You poor soft-cock cringer. Why can't you kick them in the arse as any REAL kiwi man or woman would?

Ass kicking and licking should be the sole preserve of the Anus americanus.

Brave defenders of the arse are we!!

[MSTRS]

Fuck I hate it when you've just spent 10 minutes drafting something erudite and witty, inadvertently hit some key sequence to watch it all evaporate into cyberspace.

Herewith the short version:

The old flag is a load of toss. It screams "colonial outpost". It looks the same as the Aussie flag (oh yes it does) and every banana republic from Guyana to Graceland.

Unfortunately the alternatives (so far) look no better. The last thing we need is a flag designed by a committee (otherwise it will get printed in natural, politically correct earth tones on hand-woven GE-free organic hemp by unionised labour...).

The Canadians were brave enough to ditch theirs in favour of a real stunner that clearly identifies their country. Let's do something similar.

Let's get rid of that old shite sheet!
I agree. Change for change's sake is not enough tho. We need to secede from the 'old country' and become a Republic too. Bloody Republic of New Zealand (BRONZ) or something

[ZorsT]

:finger: special just for you!

I was fully expecting that.

What i was going to say, is that people from other countries get quite confused because they dont know the difference between the two. While I was in Canada, i met too many people who could not tell the difference. That needs to change

Im not TRYING to trash australia, it just seems to happen....

[James Deuce]

Why does everyone think that:

A. Changing the flag will matter a bit.
B. That a Republican Democracy is the ONLY alternative to a Constitutional Monarchy/Westminster Parliamentarian system?

About as much thought has gone into both those points in NZ as went into pushing MMP as the ONLY suitable proportional voting system.

I'm genuinely interested.

Bear in mind when you think about these, that no one cares whether or not NZ exists or vanishes tomorrow. We mean nothing to 99% of the world, so we should make these decisions based on local benefit only.

[John]

You poor soft-cock cringer. Why can't you kick them in the arse as any REAL kiwi man or woman would?

Ass kicking and licking should be the sole preserve of the Anus americanus.

Brave defenders of the arse are we!!
call me whatever, but I really wouldnt ever use 'arse' in a sentence of any importance, I'd prefer to not sound like a pom.

but hey I'm normal :P

[NC]

I think it's a stupid Idea to change the NZ flag. It's all that activist bullshit again...

"equal rights" my fat white tattooed arse.

[James Deuce]

I was fully expecting that.

What i was going to say, is that people from other countries get quite confused because they dont know the difference between the two. While I was in Canada, i met too many people who could not tell the difference. That needs to change

Im not TRYING to trash australia, it just seems to happen....
Which just goes to show that Stupid People (tm) exist the world over. I know English people who can't tell the French and Italian flags apart and you don't see the French or the Italians bothering to react to that one bit.

[Midnight 82]

Maybe just add a bike to it and then it will stand out HEHE :brick: :2guns:

[Posh Tourer :P]

Which just goes to show that Stupid People (tm) exist the world over. I know English people who can't tell the French and Italian flags apart and you don't see the French or the Italians bothering to react to that one bit.

Or even the French and Dutch....

[James Deuce]

Or even the French and Dutch....
Heehee

Or the Spanish and German, though how people do that, I'd have no idea.

[Posh Tourer :P]

I cant beleave that these 'people' of so called interlect want to change it if I see them I will happily kick there fooken ass or attack them with the ZZR (its on my side you know).

I mean what the hell, as said all the people who fought for the flag including my dad in WW2, and the nation and democracy - I mean what the hell. I cant beleave they want a referendem (sp) on it, no true 'kiwis' will resent the idea of a new flag.

In actuall fact its a bunch of half assed homo dickless/tit-less (pc) pieces of crap who want to be remebered for fucking up a country, well newsflash go eat freash fooken ass you pricks!!

(sorry its how I feel)

I think what you mean is this:

I can't believe that these 'people' of so called "intellect" want to change it. If I see them I will happily kick their fucking arses, or attack them with the ZZR (its on my side you know).

I mean, what the hell, as all the people said who fought for the flag, the nation and democracy including my dad in WW2 - I mean what the hell. I cant believe they want a referendum (sp) on it; no true 'kiwis' will resent the idea of a new flag.

In actual fact its a bunch of half-arsed homo dick-less/tit-less (pc) pieces of crap who want to be remembered for fucking up a country. Well newsflash! Go eat fresh fucken arse you pricks!!

(sorry its how I feel)

Sorry, there was just so much in there.......

:ar15: :ar15: :sly:

[Indiana_Jones]

Keep it the way it is, McQueen would of wanted that :shifty:

-Indy

[Posh Tourer :P]

Heehee

Or the Spanish and German, though how people do that, I'd have no idea.

I can understand Luxembourg and the Dutch, but Spanish/German is just weird....

On the subject of similar flags; Belgium/Germany, France/Holland/Luxembourg and Ireland/Italy, but you don't hear them trying to change. Are we suffering from a small brother syndrome?

[avgas]

Why does everyone think that:
A. Changing the flag will matter a bit.

you havnt seen any american maps have you (weather reports are the best). Cos on them NZ is tasmania.....ive even been asked where "The bridge to Sydney" is.
Yeh all those flags on that site suck (what do you expect from Art students), but the old one, well when i think of NZ, the only thing off that flag that sticks is the southern cross (and thats taken by aus).
As for the soldiers, funny, i certainly wouldnt be dumb enough to die for a flag....for my country and loved ones, thats a different story.
So am i confused, in thinking that all the anzacs died for, wasnt the brittish flag and the southern cross

[Blakamin]

and people think changing the flag is going to make people notice NZ and realise it has nothing to do with Aussie :whistle:
most american, euros and asians couldnt tell you what either of the flags looked like!!!

[Blakamin]

So am i confused, in thinking that all the anzacs died for, wasnt the brittish flag and the southern cross
well, I'm thinking, since they died in europe, it WAS the british flag, the british empire and all its nations...
people these days have absolutely no patriotism... fuck, I'd die for the flag coz its a representation of all down in this corner of the world that is good... flags are an emblem.... it's not the flag itself, its what it represents...
If someone wanted this land (or Australia) I'd defend either in a heartbeat... and die if it meant my children could grow up to have everything that I've enjoyed in my short life....

[Slingshot]

Fuck em all!!!

I think changing the flag is bull shit!!!

Tell me...when you see our flag, do you think about mother England or does it stir national pride in your belly?

The meaning of symbols change over time, just look at the swastika as an example! (and before you ask...I'm not pro nazi!)

[James Deuce]

you havnt seen any american maps have you (weather reports are the best). Cos on them NZ is tasmania.....ive even been asked where "The bridge to Sydney" is.
Yeh all those flags on that site suck (what do you expect from Art students), but the old one, well when i think of NZ, the only thing off that flag that sticks is the southern cross (and thats taken by aus).
As for the soldiers, funny, i certainly wouldnt be dumb enough to die for a flag....for my country and loved ones, thats a different story.
So am i confused, in thinking that all the anzacs died for, wasnt the brittish flag and the southern cross

It's not just the US, the BBC has taken to the same kind of misrepresentation of late.

The Southern Cross wasn't "taken" by Australia. You may find we were first.

It's not a flag either, it's an Ensign.

http://flagspot.net/flags/nz_hist4.html

http://www.ausflag.com.au/ausflag/bhist.html

[James Deuce]

Fuck em all!!!

I think changing the flag is bull shit!!!

Tell me...when you see our flag, do you think about mother England or does it stir national pride in your belly?

The meaning of symbols change over time, just look at the swastika as an example! (and before you ask...I'm not pro nazi!)

Stop apologising when mentioning the swastika. Hitler flipped it over and canted it 45 degrees. It is a symbol of good luck on two continents and a sub-continent. Why should a temporarily dominant lightly populated Western European culture claim historical and culutral ownership of something that wasn't their's first? Because we're all weenies, with a tenuous grip on our own history and culture.

[Blakamin]

Stop apologising when mentioning the swastika. Hitler flipped it over and canted it 45 degrees. It is a symbol of good luck on two continents and a sub-continent. Why should a temporarily dominant lightly populated Western European culture claim historical and culutral ownership of something that wasn't their's first?
political correctness :o :shutup: ???

and Jim2, if your trying to illustrate the history of the Australian flag, try to find a website that DOESN'T want it changed to get it right..... :2thumbsup

[Coyote]

Out of all the popular flag designs, why did the koru have to be one of them? Are we all Moari? If we want to be fair, we would put the union jack on it, stars and stripes, rising sun, china's emblem, a Kangaroo, etc etc.

Koru? FTS

[Slingshot]

Stop apologising when mentioning the swastika. Hitler flipped it over and canted it 45 degrees. It is a symbol of good luck on two continents and a sub-continent. Why should a temporarily dominant lightly populated Western European culture claim historical and culutral ownership of something that wasn't their's first? Because we're all weenies, with a tenuous grip on our own history and culture.

I wasn't apologising...just trying to prove a point!

You read that article in the Dom too I guess!!!

[James Deuce]

I wasn't apologising...just trying to prove a point!

You read that article in the Dom too I guess!!!



Yeah you did - you said "I'm not pro-nazi".

No, I was interested when I first discovered (about 25 years ago) that Hitler was a bit mistaken about the "Aryan" race. Iran comes from the same root word. :) Silly Hitler. Aryans have dark, almost jet black hair, dark to coffee coloured skin, big noses, and brown to black eyes. You know: Northern India, Pakistan, Persia (Iran and Iraq).

[Hitcher]

call me whatever, but I really wouldnt ever use 'arse' in a sentence of any importance, I'd prefer to not sound like a pom.
Sound like an imperialist American lapdog then! In our (New Zealand) language we shouldn't cow tow to what Americans may think, say or do. "Ass" is just way too "sanitised" and "nice" in that sort of American "Hey. I just almost said a rude word!" kind of way. Pah!

Brave defenders of the arse are we!

[Slingshot]

Yeah you did - you said "I'm not pro-nazi".


That's a statement of fact...not an apology!!!

[Hitcher]

Or even the French and Dutch....
And the Russians...

[James Deuce]

That's a statement of fact...not an apology!!!
It's the implied apology. You know, subtlety....Oh I see :D

[Slingshot]

Sound like an imperialist American lapdog then! In our (New Zealand) language we shouldn't cow tow to what Americans may think, say or do. "Ass" is just way too "sanitised" and "nice" in that sort of American "Hey. I just almost said a rude word!" kind of way. Pah!

Brave defenders of the arse are we!


I can't tell you how happy I am that this post came up....



For a long time now...I've wondered if my spelling of "arse" was correct...and now I know it was.

Thank You.

[James Deuce]

cow tow

kowtow

You SURE you didn't hit your head the other day? :)

[Slingshot]

It's the implied apology. You know, subtlety....Oh I see :D


OK...if I was apologising for something...the decent thing for you to do is at least tell me what I was apologising for!

[James Deuce]

OK...if I was apologising for something...the decent thing for you to do is at least tell me what I was apologising for!
............ :whistle:

[Hitcher]

kowtow

You SURE you didn't hit your head the other day?
Good spot! Too much venom. Too much venom and an agricultural science degree. And having a bedroom way too close to a herd of Friesians during my formative years...

[Slingshot]

Hitcher...what the hell is BDOTA ???

[El Dopa]

political correctness :o :shutup: ???

and Jim2, if your trying to illustrate the history of the Australian flag, try to find a website that DOESN'T want it changed to get it right..... :2thumbsup

But he is correct that NZ had it before the Aussies, according to Mr King's excellent history paperback.

[Hitcher]

Hitcher...what the hell is BDOTA ???
Brave Defenders of the Arse. What else??

[Slingshot]

Brave Defenders of the Arse. What else??

How could I be so naive

[James Deuce]

political correctness :o :shutup: ???

and Jim2, if your trying to illustrate the history of the Australian flag, try to find a website that DOESN'T want it changed to get it right..... :2thumbsup

Sigh. It's true what they say about the US and Australia developing closer ties -and Australians losing all capability to appreciate a subtle, irony filled joke when it's DROPPED ON THEIR FEKKING HEAD FROM THREE MILES UP.

[curious george]

I quite like this one

[NinjaBoy]

Fuck I hate it when you've just spent 10 minutes drafting something erudite and witty, inadvertently hit some key sequence to watch it all evaporate into cyberspace.

Herewith the short version:

The old flag is a load of toss. It screams "colonial outpost". It looks the same as the Aussie flag (oh yes it does) and every banana republic from Guyana to Graceland.

Unfortunately the alternatives (so far) look no better. The last thing we need is a flag designed by a committee (otherwise it will get printed in natural, politically correct earth tones on hand-woven GE-free organic hemp by unionised labour...).

The Canadians were brave enough to ditch theirs in favour of a real stunner that clearly identifies their country. Let's do something similar.

Let's get rid of that old shite sheet!

Hear, Hear I agree

[curious george]

Yup, the Canadians have a cool flag, it does them quite nicely.
Anybody got any designs to show off?
I don't mind the old one, but it does seem a little, 1/2 british... not even the full thing, and not quite our own either....
Still, I dont know of any better

[jimbo600]

Flag should stay the way it is. Good people have made the ultimate sacrifice for that flag. Also NZ has a colonial history. Always will have. Changing the flag will not change that.

No one thinks of NZ as a British colony anymore anyway.

Then again I am a colonial oppressor so my opinion doesn't count. However, I do have a Kiwi passport and have shed blood while serving overseas under that flag.

[toads]

I think it's a stupid Idea to change the NZ flag. It's all that activist bullshit again...

"equal rights" my fat white tattooed arse.

Exactly!, it's trendy at the moment to talk of canning the current flag and introducing something else, in a supposed attempt to bring about a resurgence of national pride. Personally having a government, with the balls to call a spade a spade would make me far prouder than changing the flag. Today I went for a WOF for the van and the poor guys in the testing station were literally pulling their hair out, apparently anyone can now be failed for a wof for having any unsecured objects in their vehicle, eg my groceries in the back of the van!
Dear God!, we are not allowed to have the discretionary powers of using common sense any more. This country has gone stark raving bloody mad.

[avgas]

If someone wanted this land (or Australia) I'd defend either in a heartbeat... and die if it meant my children could grow up to have everything that I've enjoyed in my short life....
....like a this crappy old flag.... :shifty:

[avgas]

The meaning of symbols change over time, just look at the swastika as an example! (and before you ask...I'm not pro nazi!)
Just a twisted form of that Indian Symbol

[avgas]

Lets invert the flag - then ill be happy.
Just something that doesnt scream "For Queen and Country, we form this prison county"

[SPman]

Exactly!, it's trendy at the moment to talk of canning the current flag and introducing something else, in a supposed attempt to bring about a resurgence of national pride. Personally having a government, with the balls to call a spade a spade would make me far prouder than changing the flag. Today I went for a WOF for the van and the poor guys in the testing station were literally pulling their hair out, apparently anyone can now be failed for a wof for having any unsecured objects in their vehicle, eg my groceries in the back of the van!
Dear God!, we are not allowed to have the discretionary powers of using common sense any more. This country has gone stark raving bloody mad.

Are you serious! That should fuck 99.9% of all vehicles going for warrants then. Cunning plan - if they cant get WOFs then they can't (legally) go on the road - the traffic volumes die away - the road toll comes down. The LTA and gummint are heroes (in their eyes)
What a pack of tossers they all are!

[avgas]

Ok just did it and it looks gay

[James Deuce]

Lets invert the flag - then ill be happy.
Just something that doesnt scream "For Queen and Country, we form this prison county"

We were never a Prison colony - where do you get this stuff from??

[Biff]

The Kiwi flag is technically referred to as "wank". But as a Brit I'm please to see that you continue to bow to her majesty and my nations flag etc etc and want to be Ozzies so much you even try and copy their flag. :Pokey:

As a northern hemispherian (I love making up words) I can honestly say that the NZ flag is far from distinctive and says nothing about your country to the rest of the world. Change it I say. Tell the world that you're unique, not a British colony and that you have so much to offer the world.

As for fighting and dying for your flag, sorry I don't buy that. I don't believe that a single Kiwi has ever fought to keep a piece of colourful material just the way it has been for centuries. They fought for their nation and their beliefs. There's a similar argument going on in the UK at the moment with people saying, "people died for the pound", as an argument for not joining the Euro. No they bloody didn't, they died fighting tyranny and injustice.

In response to those that have stated that nobody believs that NZ is still part of the British empire - you are sooo very wrong. On numerous occassions I've been in far flung countries of the world and spoken to people that believe Australia and New Zealand are still part of the British empire and some even believe that they're under British rule. All because the union jack is on the Ozzie and Kiwi flags. Factoid.

But who am I but a whinging pom whose got a bloody cheek coming over here blah blah blah.

Deja vous?

[Biff]

Ok just did it and it looks gay

I second that

[James Deuce]

The Kiwi flag is technically referred to as "wank". But as a Brit I'm please to see that you continue to bow to her majesty and my nations flag etc etc and want to be Ozzies so much you even try and copy their flag. :Pokey:

As a northern hemispherian (I love making up words) I can honestly say that the NZ flag is far from distinctive and says nothing about your country to the rest of the world. Change it I say. Tell the world that you're unique, not a British colony and that you have so much to offer the world.

As for fighting and dying for your flag, sorry I don't buy that. I don;t believe that a single Kiwi has ever fought to keep a piece of colourfull material the same pretty colours. They fought for their nation and their beliefs.

In response to those that have stated that nobody believs that NZ is still part of the British empire - you are sooo very wrong. On numerous occassions I've been in far flung countries of the world and spoken to people that believe Australia and New Zealand are still part of the British empire and some even believe that they're under British rule. All because the union jack is on the Ozzie and Kiwi flags. Factoid.

But who am I but a whinging pom whose got a bloody cheek coming over here blah blah blah.

Deja vous?

But it doesn't actually matter. The rest of the world doesn't give a toss about us. Changing it will mean nothing, except to offer the illusion that it will somehow change the "overseas" perception of NZ. I've lived away from NZ for long enough to know that the only stuff that is newsworthy about NZ is a sick sheep joke or an Earthquake, or breaking an obscure EU marketing law that requires the senior UK based NZ Dairy Board management to go to jail for 18 months.

We have a bunch of issues to resolve before the flag question comes to a head.

[ResidentAngel]

Out of all the popular flag designs, why did the koru have to be one of them? Are we all Moari? If we want to be fair, we would put the union jack on it, stars and stripes, rising sun, china's emblem, a Kangaroo, etc etc.

Koru? FTS


this one could keep the traditionalists as well as Maori happy!
http://www.mch.govt.nz/nzflag/history/images/nz-ensigna.jpg

[Jamezo]

I suppose I should weigh in; I am of the opinion that the costs of changing our flag would outweigh the benefits. I'm too tired to go further... :bye:

have fun!

[inlinefour]

<img src="/images/flag_nz.gif">

Our flag is our heritage

What exactly is wrong with it anyway? :whocares:

[scumdog]

Fuck I hate it when you've just spent 10 minutes drafting something erudite and witty, inadvertently hit some key sequence to watch it all evaporate into cyberspace.

Herewith the short version:

The old flag is a load of toss. It screams "colonial outpost". It looks the same as the Aussie flag (oh yes it does) and every banana republic from Guyana to Graceland.

Unfortunately the alternatives (so far) look no better. The last thing we need is a flag designed by a committee (otherwise it will get printed in natural, politically correct earth tones on hand-woven GE-free organic hemp by unionised labour...).

The Canadians were brave enough to ditch theirs in favour of a real stunner that clearly identifies their country. Let's do something similar.

Let's get rid of that old shite sheet!

Most on this site have no idea what a 'colonial outpost' is!

Probably think it's a misspelling of 'Cromandel outhouse' or sommat...

[Big Dave]

this one could keep the traditionalists as well as Maori happy!
http://www.mch.govt.nz/nzflag/history/images/nz-ensigna.jpg

I shouldn't comment - I have a Southern Cross with 5 stars tattooed prominently on my left shoulder and the 'Eureka' flag (Which should be Australia's flag and is the icon of independent aussie bikers) tattooed largely on my right.

However, I hope you'll indulge me as an 'impartial' - I take your point, but the one you suggested is an ugly design - the crosses argue with each other and it's unbalanced - it offends my designer's eye somewhat. Not nearly as badly as the 'Stylised Fern' - That says 'Oh look - let's use Canada's idea' to me.

chz
bd
And yes I am very happy to be in this country - and i'm sorry about the possums, the white tailed spiders and Greg Chapple. Can I stay?

[James Deuce]

Why does everyone think that:

A. Changing the flag will matter a bit.
B. That a Republican Democracy is the ONLY alternative to a Constitutional Monarchy/Westminster Parliamentarian system?

About as much thought has gone into both those points in NZ as went into pushing MMP as the ONLY suitable proportional voting system.

I'm genuinely interested.

Bear in mind when you think about these, that no one cares whether or not NZ exists or vanishes tomorrow. We mean nothing to 99% of the world, so we should make these decisions based on local benefit only.

I still don't think that anyone has even come anywhere near to answering the questions I posed above, which gives me more to concerned about than the large numbers of Aussies now living in NZ that have appeared in this thread. (Large numbers is more than one).

Once again, these are serious issues requiring serious thought. Not a cheap campaign to chuck a referendum up at the next election that most people will tick "Yes, change it" only to regret ever agreeing ot the referendum when the resulting flag design turns out to be something quite different to the ones proposed by the referendum.

[Motu]

I'm in two minds on this whole thing - as Jim says,the rest of the world cares squat about our flag,same as we do about theirs....out of all the flags in the world we will pick out ours,next door,England,United States,if you ride a Jap bike,the Japanese flag,if you ride an Italian bike the Italian flag ,etc...countries of no importance,like us,are nowhere on peoples flag radar.I'm happy with our flag,but it does rub our colonial beginings in a little deep...not that I mind a colonial heritage,I'm proud of it...but we have grown up.

We have all accepted our national colour as black,we call ourselves Kiwis,we like our bird,and we take the silver fern as our emblem.But I don't think we can come up with such a stunningly simple and direct flag as Canada,at least not with the current over abundance of graphic designers that have been churned out of our universities or where ever they have sprung from.Whatever flag they produce will be over designed,it will be dated the minute it is produced.We need something a kid can draw.

[FROSTY]

Maybee im a simplist--or just plain stupid
Why not a variation on the existing flag.
I agree with both points of view -we do need to be different from auzzie but the offers Ive seen are -well ugly.
I was thinking a Koru or a silver fern behind the southern cross on our flag.

[Lou Girardin]

Bugger being a republic. We have all the bad points of Australia and none of the good. We should bite the bullet and beg to become a state. Then we only have to add one star to the flag and could use that red and black worm-like banner as a state flag. We'll get a new Premier who doesn't look like an add for 'Molvania,the Land Dentistry Forgot'. The weather will probably improve too.
(Now, where's that Nomex tent?)

[Slim]

I like this one:

http://www.flags2000.com.au/images/s108_large.gif

We see it flying everywhere already, some of our Olympian athletes have it tatooed on shoulders or ankles or hips.

I'm not up to joining the debate properly at this stage, but I might think about it when I'm feeling a bit more awake.

[Biff]

I still don't think that anyone has even come anywhere near to answering the questions I posed above.
.

I could answer those for you Jim, but as a pom who has yet to gain residency I don't believe that a) I have the right to answer them b) It would do my residency application and favours (the keyboards have ears ya know)

[vifferman]

Crikey (CRIKEY!) - what a {mixed metaphor} this whole topic is.

My point of view? :whocares: (about my view or this issue).
It's a piece of fabric with stuff on it, for goodness sake!
And to whoever said we're not patriotic enough: isn't patriotism just another blight on world peace, like separatism, colonialism, racism, sexism, and ismism?
Jism? Jismismism? Weren't flags originally symbols to wave around when waging war on furriners? Blah blah blah

Yes, I'm a New Zealander, a Kiwi if you like (although in many countires now, since Murka dropped 'fruit' from 'kiwifruit', a kiwi is a kiwifruit). Blah blah blah. I identify with NZ, wouldn't want to live anywhere else, but I don't give a rat's ass (that's for you Hitcher) or an ass's rat, or any other anatomical/zoological absurdity about what our flag looks like, or even whether we have one. And like Jim#2 said, it won't matter if we change it or not. Blah blah.

But (BUT!) if I had to choose, I'd choose the one the Wise Woman's already pointed out the benefits of. :niceone:
And I agree with what Motu said:
"Whatever flag they [the overabundance of graphic designers] produce will be over designed,it will be dated the minute it is produced.We need something a kid can draw."
That silver fern on a black background fits the bill: it's already recognised, most NZers can identify with it, no graphic designer's going to charge a bazillion dollars for coming up with something clever and forgettable, and no-one can claim credit for it.

Apart from Nike, or Canterbury, or some big corporate clothing company :Pokey: that has probably already copyrighted it.

[James Deuce]

I could answer those for you Jim, but as a pom who has yet to gain residency I don't believe that a) I have the right to answer them b) It would do my residency application and favours (the keyboards have ears ya know)
Yeah, but this isn't the US - Debate away!

[jrandom]

... We need something a kid can draw.

Funny you should say that, I've been thinking precisely the same from the top of the thread.

I remember drawing the Union Jack and the four stars in primary school. I took such pride in getting the lines straight and meeting up in the right place... every time some wack-ass ( :bleh: ) design with korus or wibbly-wobbly bits or even a fern is proposed I can't help thinking how the primary schools will have to give up getting the kids to draw flags.

Ah, well. All the proper countries have taken the good designs already.

But has anyone actually thought about what would be *appropriate* as a replacement design, rather than what would look good?

I'd go for a rising sun and a coconut, large and proud over an upside-down Union Jack...

[**R1**]

I like this one :bleh:
sorry couldnt help it just thoufht this thread could use some huma

[Biff]

Yeah, but this isn't the US - Debate away!

Ok, here's my reponse to your questions.


A. Changing the flag will matter a bit.

But the perception of New Zealand by other nation states and their constituent populations would. A comment was passed in a previous post that nobody cares about New Zealand anyway. Well as I've already stated I've personally been blessed with being able to travel to many nations around the world and that there is the belief by many people I've met on my travels that New Zealand is a British colony simply because NZ has the flag of another nation as a key part of it's national identity. As such why would these individuals take anything NZ had to say seriously if they are of the impression that this great nations view was worthless as it was the UK which spoke on it's behalf? To be taken more seriously on the world stage it is important for any nation to be able to be seen to be independent and freethinking.

B. That a Republican Democracy is the ONLY alternative to a Constitutional Monarchy/Westminster Parliamentarian system?

I believe that both Republican Democracies and Constitutional systems work well and both have their own merits (and weaknesses), as do the their respective legislative systems. There are plenty of templates out there as examples of governmental structures that NZ could emulate and it would be an ideal opportunity to take a look at many of examples of governments around the world and their respective legal systems, picking the best bits and ignoring the archaic systems employed by other nations (and I'm particularly thinking of some Westminster parliamentarian and legislative processes here).

However, I do not believe that there is a necessary or automatic correlation between changing the design of a piece of cloth which, it could be said, is nothing more than a (supposedly) unique national identifier and a change in governmental systems. This is a broader issue that I for one do not see the need to change at this point in NZ's history.

[Blakamin]

As for fighting and dying for your flag, sorry I don't buy that. I don't believe that a single Kiwi has ever fought to keep a piece of colourful material just the way it has been for centuries. They fought for their nation and their beliefs.
Actually, NZ hasn't had to fight for the country for a long time... fighting on behalf however... (slack poms cant do it themselves!) :msn-wink:
Australia did have to fight for the country in WW2.... like I said before, If either country was under threat, I'd be there in a heartbeat... the flag is symbolism or countries wouldnt have flags at all!!!

I dont think NZ should change its flag
I think Australia should! I think the Australian flag should be the Eureka Flag. bloody good flag design (and it was in the town where most of my Aussie side of the family call home. in fact, my "good" brother lives about 400 metres from the original site)


In December 1854, 1000 men gathered at Eureka, on the outskirts of Ballarat and unfurled their flag, a white cross and stars on a blue field, to proclaim their oath:

We swear by the Southern Cross to stand truly by each other, and fight to defend our rights and liberties.

fuckin good oath I reckon!

[James Deuce]

This is a broader issue that I for one do not see the need to change at this point in NZ's history.

Ah, I see where you are coming from now.

The problem with your responses is that they are contradictory. I don't know if you are aware, but NZ is not Independant. It is a realm of the United Kingdom, so the current flag actually makes a great deal of sense in terms of NZ's International legal status.

That is why I link flag reform and legislative change.

I think it is interesting that you label the Westminster system "archaic". Probably in it's current state it is the most modern democratic system on the planet, and certainly able to change legislature quicker than the US Republican system.

There are actually very few functioning democratic templates for government reform in NZ to follow.

[That Guy]

I'd like to see the flag changed; but have not yet seen one I like. I'd like to see one that acknowledges where we came from, but also recognises that we don't owe things we achieve today, to the UK.

What crystallized it for me was watching Sarah Ulmer get her gold medal. She wrapped the Kiwi flag around her proudly (good) but all you could see was Union Jack. Why should the UK be globally acknowledged for her achievement?

I like the Maori flag but that recognises only 10% of the nation, nor does it recognise that a huge part of our history is UK founded which we shouldn't forget -we need something that recognises all of us. I thought this one was getting close...

[Biff]

I don't know if you are aware, but NZ is not Independant.

Really? I honestly didn't know that! Best I do my homework before ranting.


I think it is interesting that you label the Westminster system "archaic". Probably .

One of the main problems with Westminster is that there are two houses to satisfy. On the one hand you have the House of Commons, which consists of elected representatives (MP's) and then you have the House of Lords, which despite the current governments (alleged) attempts is still largely run by non-elected hereditary peers (Lord's and Ladies). These people have never earned the right to speak on behalf of the population of the UK, but simply acquired the right to have the final say on which legislation hits the statute books simply because they have bought a title, own land (by hook or by crook ,but that's another story) or their family have had the titles for centuries. These people in no way reflect the cross section of society and are primarily from the upper and conservative classes. Although I do appreciate that the current elected government is attempting to change this, and to some extent has been successful. But guess what - the House of Lords has to vote on whether or not it should change!!!!!

How on earth can a country that claims to be democratic still base it's legislative process on such an archaic practice. I've lost count of the number of times the elected house vote to pass a law or reform only to have the lords reject it. :thud:

[Big Dave]

I thought this one was getting close...

Best of the bunch by a LONG shot.
bd

[Big Dave]

There are actually very few functioning democratic templates for government reform in NZ to follow.

What an opportunity to get it right then!

Personally I hope you do - these issues are not too far away from surfacing in Oz again - 2007 I think it all comes up for mention again - and a Kiwi inspired reform would be......I'm not sure I have the word for it.

Considering that in the planned layout of Canberra, the parliament building is in the middle of Australia Circuit.

All of the roads that radiate from it point directly to the state capital for which they are named. Sydney Rd to Sydney etc.

Except for 'Australia Road' - it points directly to....Wellington.

Seems you chaps not wanting to 'play ball' in the federation game came as a bit of a suprise.

Nice irony if NZ could inspire a reform back home.

Adds: - Just on Lous comment - Becoming a state adds an extra layer of Government - don't do it - a common currency and SX would be better.

bd

[Blakamin]

Except for 'Australia Road' - it points directly to....Wellington.


Actually, doesnt it point to Jervis Bay, which is part of the ACT as the capital had to have access to the sea :spudwhat:

[James Deuce]

Really? I honestly didn't know that! Best I do my homework before ranting.



One of the main problems with Westminster is that there are two houses to satisfy. On the one hand you have the House of Commons, which consists of elected representatives (MP's) and then you have the House of Lords, which despite the current governments (alleged) attempts is still largely run by non-elected hereditary peers (Lord's and Ladies). These people have never earned the right to speak on behalf of the population of the UK, but simply acquired the right to have the final say on which legislation hits the statute books simply because they have bought a title, own land (by hook or by crook ,but that's another story) or their family have had the titles for centuries. These people in no way reflect the cross section of society and are primarily from the upper and conservative classes. Although I do appreciate that the current elected government is attempting to change this, and to some extent has been successful. But guess what - the House of Lords has to vote on whether or not it should change!!!!!

How on earth can a country that claims to be democratic still base it's legislative process on such an archaic practice. I've lost count of the number of times the elected house vote to pass a law or reform only to have the lords reject it. :thud:

I know what you're saying, but the US has effectively 3 layers to go through, and can be overturned by a 4th "non-political" layer, so I don't reckon that's a goer either.

Elected officials very seldom reflect their constituent or list base, because most people don't hanker after political power. Bit if a catch 22. Plato had the population for an effective democracy (as intended by Democrates) - about 2-3000. Over that and the "general" populace are excluded from debate.

[Posh Tourer :P]

Best of the bunch by a LONG shot.
bd

Agreed, maybe remove the leaves to make it simpler...... Looks good too, but I suspect we will be required to have a Maori symbol on it too, unless the fern counts well enough (it ought to)

[Big Dave]

Actually, doesnt it point to Jervis Bay, which is part of the ACT as the capital had to have access to the sea :spudwhat:

Not the way i heard it - heard being the operative.
bd

[moko]

How on earth can a country that claims to be democratic still base it's legislative process on such an archaic practice. I've lost count of the number of times the elected house vote to pass a law or reform only to have the lords reject it. :thud:

Then just to make it really good there`s a thing called The Parliament Act which means that despite all this farting around the Government can over-rule the Lords anyway,the subject of a court-case with the Countryside Alliance (Rural activists who have just seen the Govt. steamroller anti-fox-hunting legislation through).Worse yet is the "Royal Perogative" which basically gives the PM the same rights as an absolute Monarch(in theory is able to decide a course of action on behalf of the Crown,which in reality has no power),that`s how Thatcher was able to give the order to sink the Belgrano despite the majority of even her spineless,arse-licking cabinet advising her that war-crimes go down in history.THAT`s the farce that`s British democracy,the current Govt. are in a constant battle with the judiciery for trampling all over the laws of this land.tony blair`s government do something then are sued by the company his wife works for,great scam there somewhere.

[Hitcher]

I still don't think that anyone has even come anywhere near to answering the questions I posed above, which gives me more to concerned about than the large numbers of Aussies now living in NZ that have appeared in this thread. (Large numbers is more than one).
Sorry mate, I thought they where rhetorical...

If changing the flag doesn't make a difference we shouldn't do it. However the flag becomes a significant issue every time there is some "New Zealand marketing push thingee" internationally (I've been personally involved in about four of these over a period of mumble years). In these cases the issue is one of branded identity which a nicely unambiguous flag would go a long way to solving.

On a day-to-day basis Joe and Julie Citizen have very little to do with the flag and really don't give a shit. About the only time they see it is during the Olympics and such when it is raised to that egregious tune that passes for our national anthem.

The "fought and died" argument is a crock. No New Zealander died for King, country or flag. They volunteered in their thousands to fight in other people's wars because all their mates were, it was a great adventure and way to see the world, and there was bugger-all else happening here. They were also bloody good at it. The battle honours received either by regiment or individually by New Zealand troops is frightening testament to their prodigiousness and prowess as soldiers.

Democracy? New Zealanders like ticking boxes. We were conned into MMP by a well-organised and financed lobby group on the basis that a first-past-the-post electoral system is "unfair". Sigh. There are much better systems of proportional representation, if that is indeed what we want.

Prediction: Britain will become a republic before we do. What's left of the Royal family will either move here voluntarily or face deportation.

[vifferman]

Worse yet is the "Royal Perogative" which basically gives the PM the same rights as an absolute Monarch....
Yeah.

It was disgusting when that was exercised to shaft the Chagossians, who in 2003 had a court ruling that they had been unlawfully evicted from Diego Garcia, only to have the Royal Rubberstamping to say that they were never ever allowed to return to their homeland. Shameful use of power.... :disapint:

[avgas]

We were never a Prison colony - where do you get this stuff from??
nope...but austrailia was. not that you can tell from our flags that we also are not.
We were suppose to be a colony of people who were gonna start a new life in a new land.
but no lets drag the old one here too

[James Deuce]

nope...but austrailia was. not that you can tell from our flags that we also are not.
We were suppose to be a colony of people who were gonna start a new life in a new land.
but no lets drag the old one here too

As I said though, we had the Southern Cross on our flag 80 years before Australia. Australia didn't have a National Flag until the late '50s, as it is effectively a federation of States, and no one had bothered to ratify a flag.

Moving to NZ wasn't just about people starting a new life either. It was people with the money to establish themselves in another country. No way they were going to ditch their culture as land ownership is the ultimate expression of status.

[Blakamin]

nope...but austrailia was. not that you can tell from our flags that we also are not.

but like Jim sain, NZ had the flag like that before Australia........ just Aussies have done more with it :lol: (extra star, white stars so they stand out... gold medals etc. :Pokey: )