Ozzy27 F3 Race bike

[Shaun]

Chris, you have built a fantastic sounding race bike mate, it sounds AWSOME!

I believe what you have done, has created a way for people to end up racing a lot better quality base product bike, than a lot are currently racing:niceone: a lot of 2005 bikes can now get out there and be competitive ib the F3 class, LONG LIVE THE KIWI TINKERER:clap:

Current/modern tyre sizes, quality brakes, and quality base suspension product to work with

PS- The mods You have done to the High speed Rebound on the front forks, is Bloody Brilliant mate, turn 2 is realy quite bad for the high speed side of rebound at manfeild, and your bike just flowed through that turn with me on it, I was not going very fast, but fast enough to give you a big thumbs up on your front suspension work

[feral1]

Chris,
Don't know what you've cobbled together, but i bet its cool. Can't wait to hear more about this bike. Shaun: i suspects its a sleeved down 600??
Chris, we appreciatted your helping hand at 08 Manfield Nats, dude. See ya about.
Eric

[Robert Taylor]

Is the high speed rebound spec the same that we disclosed over the phone the other day or a subtle variation? The dyno curve for that spec is very very similiar to the base Ohlins curve that we have refined and work with.

[bistard]

Well done Chris,after speaking to you yesterday Its sounds like you might just have an answer for those SV650 Things
I look forward to next weekend to hear & see it in the flesh
Bazza

[Clivoris]

*hopping from foot to foot* Oooh Oooh. Can't wait to see this whatever it is.

[diesel pig]

I look forward to next weekend to hear & see it in the flesh

Someone please take some photos and posted them!

[Ozzy27]

Chris, you have built a fantastic sounding race bike mate, it sounds AWSOME!

I believe what you have done, has created a way for people to end up racing a lot better quality base product bike, than a lot are currently racing:niceone: a lot of 2005 bikes can now get out there and be competitive ib the F3 class, LONG LIVE THE KIWI TINKERER:clap:

Current/modern tyre sizes, quality brakes, and quality base suspension product to work with

PS- The mods You have done to the High speed Rebound on the front forks, is Bloody Brilliant mate, turn 2 is realy quite bad for the high speed side of rebound at manfeild, and your bike just flowed through that turn with me on it, I was not going very fast, but fast enough to give you a big thumbs up on your front suspension work

Cheers Shaun for the positive feedback. I was going to keep it a bit quite till next weekend.
It certaintly had a lot of people asking questions with the way it sounded ("little Motogp bike") was the most common.
I had a lot of fun riding it as it was a lot!!!! easier to rider than my Honda rs250 gp bike. (I could walk upright today and wasn't very sore which never happened after riding the 250).
It will still need some more power to be right at the front but would make an awesome club bike as is. Easy to ride, good handling,reliable.

When will you be able to release details of your new toy??

[Ozzy27]

Is the high speed rebound spec the same that we disclosed over the phone the other day or a subtle variation? The dyno curve for that spec is very very similiar to the base Ohlins curve that we have refined and work with.
Hi Robert,
I had already done the revalve when I spoke to you. Was just interested to get your take on things.
I had made the changes at the base of the stack which seemed to work well.
Glen williams loved the feed back from the front. Said it was a lot better than his SV. This is probally a combination of Dunlop Tyres, 600 geometry and weight dist. and lastly the suspension setting.
This was the main reason behind the project was to get modern sport bike handling (geometry) into a F3 bike at a reasonable cost. TTX40 in the rear was unfaultable!!(I love that shock so adaptable)
Cheers
Chris

[Shaun]

Cheers Shaun for the positive feedback. I was going to keep it a bit quite till next weekend.
It certaintly had a lot of people asking questions with the way it sounded ("little Motogp bike") was the most common.
I had a lot of fun riding it as it was a lot!!!! easier to rider than my Honda rs250 gp bike. (I could walk upright today and wasn't very sore which never happened after riding the 250).
It will still need some more power to be right at the front but would make an awesome club bike as is. Easy to ride, good handling,reliable.

When will you be able to release details of your new toy??


It is a bit quiet mate! WOOPS

As it was out on the track, I figured it was not confidetual anymore

My new toy, you can see it at Wanganui Boxing day this year, IT will be ready! and I have done a deal with a very competent rider to race it in the NZ champs this coming season:clap:

[Ozzy27]

It is a bit quiet mate! WOOPS

As it was out on the track, I figured it was not confidetual anymore

My new toy, you can see it at Wanganui Boxing day this year, IT will be ready! and I have done a deal with a very competent rider to race it in the NZ champs this coming season:clap:

Shaun I know there are a few people that think you have more than one personality, but talking about yourself in the third person will have us all beliving:doctor::clap:
cheers
chris

[CHOPPA]

So whats this f3 bike then...? Maybe a v twin 450?

[Shaun]

Shaun I know there are a few people that think you have more than one personality, but talking about yourself in the third person will have us all beliving:doctor::clap:
cheers
chris


O well hahaha

[TonyB]

600 geometry and weight dist. and lastly the suspension setting.
This was the main reason behind the project was to get modern sport bike handling (geometry) into a F3 bike at a reasonable cost. TTX40 in the rear was unfaultable!!(I love that shock so adaptable)
Cheers
Chris


So whats this f3 bike then...? Maybe a v twin 450? Hmmm. Sounds interesting! I reckon there are enough hints there- could it be a 600 with a cylinder lopped off? Or maybe a dirt bike converted to a road racer- I've read elsewhere that they have very similar geometry to a 600

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

supersport sleeved down to 450cc?

[slowpoke]

Haha, keep 'em guessing Chris!

It really was a treat to see and hear the thing, and the fact that you basically built it with hard work rather than hard cash is just brilliant. Thanks for the demo....but next time could ya get Mr Williams to slow down a bit so I can have a better listen/squiz at the thing in action?

Oh yeah, I was the bloke next door making the fast bike go slow......D'OH!

[CHOPPA]

Has there been a race or trackday that i have missed recently...?

[quallman1234]

Sounds like a SV650 mixed for a 600 SS

[Ozzy27]

Has there been a race or trackday that i have missed recently...?

You will be amazed what goes on at manfield on friday test days all through out the year.
Only 5 bikes on track so heaps of space last friday.
this week 30+?? 2 clear laps in a row? yeah right!:banana:

[CHOPPA]

Gay i shoulda checked the website! Taupo is like that as well, been there for a couple of weds test rides only 3 bikes on the track its great!

[steveyb]

I know, oh oh oh, its a..........

Well, that info will cost you a lot more than one beer.

Idea is not so new, but Ozzy is the first bonehead to actually do it and make it work. All power to 'im. A lot to be said for actually getting on with it and doing it. I think there will be significant discussion around this one.

The bike is sweet. The susp work is the best. The rider, weeeeelllllll that is another story. Will be interesting to see said bike up against existing racebikes.

Enjoy
;-)

[Ozzy27]

I know, oh oh oh, its a..........

Well, that info will cost you a lot more than one beer.

Idea is not so new, but Ozzy is the first bonehead to actually do it and make it work. All power to 'im. A lot to be said for actually getting on with it and doing it. I think there will be significant discussion around this one.

The bike is sweet. The susp work is the best. The rider, weeeeelllllll that is another story. Will be interesting to see said bike up against existing racebikes.

Enjoy
;-)


Chris, you have built a fantastic sounding race bike mate, it sounds AWSOME!

I believe what you have done, has created a way for people to end up racing a lot better quality base product bike, than a lot are currently racing:niceone: a lot of 2005 bikes can now get out there and be competitive ib the F3 class, LONG LIVE THE KIWI TINKERER:clap:

Current/modern tyre sizes, quality brakes, and quality base suspension product to work with

PS- The mods You have done to the High speed Rebound on the front forks, is Bloody Brilliant mate, turn 2 is realy quite bad for the high speed side of rebound at manfeild, and your bike just flowed through that turn with me on it, I was not going very fast, but fast enough to give you a big thumbs up on your front suspension work

Well The 450 has completed its first race weekend without any problems at all!
With a rusty over weight rider on board it smoked every 400 it came across on the straights and was a match for almost all of the SV650's. This is with a stock 600 engine running only 3 Cylinders giving the 450 capacity.
I belive I can get 15 more horsepower from the engine without too much trouble(just some money).
As it was it allowed me to finish 3rd in F3 in the 20 lap race on Sunday morning.
The bike is great to ride and very easy.
I would be happy to talk to anyone interested in a similar bike as I could do a simlar bike from any fuel injected 600.
There will be an article from Glen Williams on the bike in next months BRM.

Cheers all.
Chris (Ozzy):scooter:

[Deano]

Ummm, I have to vouch for Chris and his 'exotic' machine.

I pulled up beside you on the dummy grid for qualifying - heard this bike which sounded like a twin, sort of a pulsing twin, but not quite.

I asked you what it was, and thought from the stickers that it was a hotted up GSXR400.

But no.

You came past me mid race and I couldn't quite match your pace - you had some nice style through Higgins. I should have tried harder to tag onto you cause I need to lift my game a second or two per lap. I was quite relieved that you were in F3, and not in my class.

How much HP is that thing putting out anyway ?
Do you think it will be reliable long term given any slight misbalancing with no firing on one of the cylinders ? Certainly has the suspension and brakes.....

[roogazza]

Well The 450 has completed its first race weekend without any problems at all!
With a rusty over weight rider on board it smoked every 400 it came across on the straights and was a match for almost all of the SV650's. This is with a stock 600 engine running only 3 Cylinders giving the 450 capacity.
The bike is great to ride and very easy.
I would be happy to talk to anyone interested in a similar bike as I could do a simlar bike from any fuel injected 600.
There will be an article from Glen Williams on the bike in next months BRM.
Cheers all.
Chris (Ozzy):scooter:

Thanks for taking the time out to chat to me on Sat, very interesting project. Gaz.

[Ozzy27]

Ummm, I have to vouch for Chris and his 'exotic' machine.

I pulled up beside you on the dummy grid for qualifying - heard this bike which sounded like a twin, sort of a pulsing twin, but not quite.

I asked you what it was, and thought from the stickers that it was a hotted up GSXR400.

But no.

You came past me mid race and I couldn't quite match your pace - you had some nice style through Higgins. I should have tried harder to tag onto you cause I need to lift my game a second or two per lap. I was quite relieved that you were in F3, and not in my class.

How much HP is that thing putting out anyway ?
Do you think it will be reliable long term given any slight misbalancing with no firing on one of the cylinders ? Certainly has the suspension and brakes.....

As the engine is at the moment I think it would be more reliable than a 600 as it doesn't quite rev as hard.
It is very smooth and if you do a bit of reading on engine vibration the combustion doesnt add to vibration. As this engine is still running the 4th piston the engine is still dynamically balanced. The bike still has stock road bike forks which seem to work ok at the speed I am going but may be found wanting going a lot faster.
:2thumbsup

[Deano]

That's wicked mate. I'm no mechanic like you - looks like your onto a winner. Long live the Burt Munro, can do kiwi attitude of lateral thinking !!

[Chrislost]

well a stock GSXR has better forks than a 650 commuting twin anyhow.

and im sure that 15 odd years of development over most of the 400s that are racing means better suspension than them!


That thing sounded cool! mind you i only heard it for about 10 seconds during the race...:2thumbsup

[gav]

So if its running its 4th piston, but only firing on 3 cylinders, isnt still effectively a 600cc bike if you measure bore and stroke on four cylinders?
A 600cc bike running on 3 cylinders?

How would the engine size be checked and confirmed?
10-15 The Formulae to Calculate Cubic Capacity:
10-15-1 Reciprocating piston motors: Diameter of cylinder bore in centimetres, squared,
multiplied by 0.7854, multiplied by stroke in centimetres, multiplied by number of
cylinders.

It sounds a wonderful idea but may cause some scratching of heads come tech time?

[lostinflyz]

So if its running its 4th piston, but only firing on 3 cylinders, isnt still effectively a 600cc bike if you measure bore and stroke on four cylinders?
A 600cc bike running on 3 cylinders?

not really. the final cylinder is acting basically as a balancing member and technically draws power from the motor so all good. but more than likely eventually someone will bitch.

someone always bitches.

Anyway good on ya ozzy sounds like it could be a real f3 weapon. how much would you guesstimate it'd cost to do another conversion, just wondering???

[Ozzy27]

So if its running its 4th piston, but only firing on 3 cylinders, isnt still effectively a 600cc bike if you measure bore and stroke on four cylinders?
A 600cc bike running on 3 cylinders?

How would the engine size be checked and confirmed?
10-15 The Formulae to Calculate Cubic Capacity:
10-15-1 Reciprocating piston motors: Diameter of cylinder bore in centimetres, squared,
multiplied by 0.7854, multiplied by stroke in centimetres, multiplied by number of
cylinders.

It sounds a wonderful idea but may cause some scratching of heads come tech time?

I Have spoken to MNZ waiting for conformation but inital feedback is that with no valves in the head it will be classified as a balance weight. Which is what it is. A four stroke engine must have an induction compression,power and exhaust strokes by definition. without valves none of these occur. therefore that cylinder can not be call an engine!! and a 600 is really 4x 150cc engines.
so now it is 3 x 150cc engines. It is like saying the Ducati supermono was a 1000cc engine because that was what it was once.

[Ozzy27]

not really. the final cylinder is acting basically as a balancing member and technically draws power from the motor so all good. but more than likely eventually someone will bitch.

someone always bitches.

Anyway good on ya ozzy sounds like it could be a real f3 weapon. how much would you guesstimate it'd cost to do another conversion, just wondering???

Hi,
Yes you are right it does draw power from the engine. From my calcs about 8.5hp is used to drive that cylinder.
As for doing another one about $900-$1000 + gaskets and other parts depending on the bike.
Cheers
Chris:done:

[Cajun]

very very interesting idea there ozzy.

[Ivan]

its a wicked bike and really fast

[gav]

I Have spoken to MNZ waiting for conformation but inital feedback is that with no valves in the head it will be classified as a balance weight. Which is what it is. A four stroke engine must have an induction compression,power and exhaust strokes by definition. without valves none of these occur. therefore that cylinder can not be call an engine!! and a 600 is really 4x 150cc engines.
so now it is 3 x 150cc engines. It is like saying the Ducati supermono was a 1000cc engine because that was what it was once.
A Supermono only runs one piston and one cylinder though.

Cool if they allow it but they may need to rewrite the rule book on how you measure the cubic capicity of an engine then! :Punk:

Do you still run an injector and coil to the "dead" cylinder then? Is there anything to indicate that the bike is modified by looking at the motor?
Good to see some lateral thinking put into practice!

[svr]

A Supermono only runs one piston and one cylinder though.

Cool if they allow it but they may need to rewrite the rule book on how you measure the cubic capicity of an engine then! :Punk:

Do you still run an injector and coil to the "dead" cylinder then? Is there anything to indicate that the bike is modified by looking at the motor?
Good to see some lateral thinking put into practice!

Well done Chris - the bike sounds awesome and goes well. It definitely looks the most affordable route to a competitive F3 bike - hopefully this innovation leads to a revival of F3 with a bunch of decent, affordable, interesting bikes out there going at it it - as the class was originally intended.

The supermono ran a reciprocating weight (dummy conrod on oscillating beam) and won a NZ title without any sad git protesting its balancing mechasim. Whether or not the reciprocating weight was previously used to produce power seems to me to be of no importance.
Unfortunately ... there are some petty people out there who will try to get this banned, or at least try to get the rules `clarified' next year in order to ban it. Hopefully they are not listened to.

[Ozzy27]

A Supermono only runs one piston and one cylinder though.

Cool if they allow it but they may need to rewrite the rule book on how you measure the cubic capicity of an engine then! :Punk:

Do you still run an injector and coil to the "dead" cylinder then? Is there anything to indicate that the bike is modified by looking at the motor?
Good to see some lateral thinking put into practice!

New Zealand seems to have a lot of poeple who say you cant do this or that wont work. Just look at a few of the "experts" who posted here http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=77299
that said this would not work. Well it works!! It is going to be raced!! The rule book does not need to be rewriten as this is not a "cylinder" in the context of capacity.If anyone wants to fight over it bring it on!! bring your cheque book and your lawyer because you will have a fight on your hands!! Ask about, I know what I am talking about and I am a doer! not a talker or an "expert" who sits on a computer 24/7 telling people "How it is".
All you "experts" should spend some time reading something that may teach you something(SAE articles etc) instead of hanging around forums trying to out do each other!
:done::done:

[johan]

Are there any photos of this incredible machine? I must have seen it without realising what it was!

Exiting stuff!

[Toast]

Very cool! In the drama of the weekend that was I forgot to keep an eye (and an ear) out for this machine. Hope that I get a chance to see it in future. Hope the project goes well for you, Ozzy :niceone:

[lostinflyz]

New Zealand seems to have a lot of poeple who say you cant do this or that wont work. Just look at a few of the "experts" who posted here http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=77299
that said this would not work. Well it works!! It is going to be raced!! The rule book does not need to be rewriten as this is not a "cylinder" in the context of capacity.If anyone wants to fight over it bring it on!! bring your cheque book and your lawyer because you will have a fight on your hands!! Ask about, I know what I am talking about and I am a doer! not a talker or an "expert" who sits on a computer 24/7 telling people "How it is".
All you "experts" should spend some time reading something that may teach you something(SAE articles etc) instead of hanging around forums trying to out do each other!
:done::done:

to be honest i thought it wouldn't work based on my experience with dropping a cylinder on other vechiles (i.e. pulling a lad). Im real impressed that you did it and got the results for the costs you say. obviously the new 600's have little losses due to the piston movemnt,probably explaining there really good power output. good on you for following through i say.

Even though this will shit on my oldish 400 (prob even a 450 if i did one) id still truly be gutted if it was for some idiotic reason deemed outta rules. people should encourage thought and new ideas.

thanks for proving me wrong in regards to power and money. I 100% support anything that propels man faster in any way possible. even when it means i am wrong. damn.

[lostinflyz]

ozzy that dyno graph you posted has two runs.

was that concept one and concept two???

[Ivan]

Chris,

I find it funny the people whinging are the ones who were not out there,
Guys like me who were getting absolutly blitzed by this beast didnt even care we all think its a great idea and F3 is the only class left were at National level you can build a bike to run but someone will always moan I think what you have done is a wicked Idea and is definatly a bike I would love to try the thing looks incredibly good sounds good and looks like it handles good when you shot past me in the esses that thing was like no other F3 bike out there bar Glen's SV

Good on you

and hope to see more of these bikes startign from the grid it would be a good replacement for alot of the older 400cc bikes,

Definate SV eater it is:doh:

[scracha]

Ozzy. That answers a few questions I had. Was thinking "fark me that's a fast 400 with 600 bodywork".

Don't think I'll bother saving up for an NC29 anymore :-) A Yamaha R4.5 is on my Christmas list.

Umm...could you do the same trick with a 955cc triumph?

[Cleve]

Absolutely fantastic. Something I hoped could be done (and mentioned in the previous forum) but don't have the know how to do my self.
This could just save F3! Well done, bless you and now I am also seriously looking at an R 4.5 Yamaha instead of going the ol' SV route (nothing wrong with them but prefer a modern well handling frame, better looking etc) when I do get back into racing.

[svr]

All you "experts" should spend some time reading something that may teach you something(SAE articles etc) instead of hanging around forums trying to out do each other!
:done::done:

Ozzie - It seems the support is (and generally has been) overwhelmingly in favour of your bike and this concept for F3.
The problem will be the complainers going to the rule makers.
Also, some of us spend our time talking shit here as we do less damage than with tools in our hands...

[Robert Taylor]

New Zealand seems to have a lot of poeple who say you cant do this or that wont work. Just look at a few of the "experts" who posted here http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=77299
that said this would not work. Well it works!! It is going to be raced!! The rule book does not need to be rewriten as this is not a "cylinder" in the context of capacity.If anyone wants to fight over it bring it on!! bring your cheque book and your lawyer because you will have a fight on your hands!! Ask about, I know what I am talking about and I am a doer! not a talker or an "expert" who sits on a computer 24/7 telling people "How it is".
All you "experts" should spend some time reading something that may teach you something(SAE articles etc) instead of hanging around forums trying to out do each other!
:done::done:

Well done Chris, you are certainly beating to a different drum. But you are not only beating your drum, you have followed through on what you said you were going to do. Now you just need some 25mm cartridges so the bike can brake later, etc!

[FzerozeroT]

Ozzy27 - Are we going to have a discussion and 'how-to' over how anyone can perform this surgery by themselves or do you wish to keep it as a trade secret?

[Ozzy27]

ozzy that dyno graph you posted has two runs.

was that concept one and concept two???

Hi,
Yes the 2 runs shown are the orignal idea and after the changes thought out. which is how it was when raced.

[Ozzy27]

Ozzy. That answers a few questions I had. Was thinking "fark me that's a fast 400 with 600 bodywork".

Don't think I'll bother saving up for an NC29 anymore :-) A Yamaha R4.5 is on my Christmas list.

Umm...could you do the same trick with a 955cc triumph?


Absolutely fantastic. Something I hoped could be done (and mentioned in the previous forum) but don't have the know how to do my self.
This could just save F3! Well done, bless you and now I am also seriously looking at an R 4.5 Yamaha instead of going the ol' SV route (nothing wrong with them but prefer a modern well handling frame, better looking etc) when I do get back into racing.

Hi,
I would love to build one out of an R6. I did it with a suzuki because that was the current bike i had the most experience with and a bike came up at the right Price (Thanks Shaun). I would be happy to do the conversion for about $900 + Parts depending on the ease of the conversion.
Cheers
Chris:eek:

[Ozzy27]

Well done Chris, you are certainly beating to a different drum. But you are not only beating your drum, you have followed through on what you said you were going to do. Now you just need some 25mm cartridges so the bike can brake later, etc!

Thanks Robert,
I have never been into following the crowd for the sake of it. I like to keep an open mind and ask questions that is the best way to learn. If that makes me different so be it.:chase:
25mm cartridges will be on the shopping list when 250 rolling chassis sell (or maybe a set of R&T forks to get tounges wagging):drool::drool:
Cheers
Chris

[Ozzy27]

Ozzy27 - Are we going to have a discussion and 'how-to' over how anyone can perform this surgery by themselves or do you wish to keep it as a trade secret?

sorry I am hoping to build some of these as an add on to my current work.
If anyone is looking for servicing or freshing up of their race bikes drop me a line.
Good Quality work at a fair price.
Cheers
Chris:first:

[johnsv650]

what did the dyno give out hp wise ?
john

[johnsv650]

how many hp did it develop ?

[Ozzy27]

how many hp did it develop ?

Hi John,
it made 74.7hp Graph is on page 2 of thread.
Engine is still std just pipe and empro.
seems to have better top end speed than an SV with similar HP.

[roadracingoldfart]

New Zealand seems to have a lot of poeple who say you cant do this or that wont work. Just look at a few of the "experts" who posted here http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=77299
that said this would not work. Well it works!! It is going to be raced!! The rule book does not need to be rewriten as this is not a "cylinder" in the context of capacity.If anyone wants to fight over it bring it on!! bring your cheque book and your lawyer because you will have a fight on your hands!! Ask about, I know what I am talking about and I am a doer! not a talker or an "expert" who sits on a computer 24/7 telling people "How it is".
All you "experts" should spend some time reading something that may teach you something(SAE articles etc) instead of hanging around forums trying to out do each other!
:done::done:

Hell Chris , some of those comments are a bit beyond left field.
Yes you are a dooer but i also remember you stacking the deck a bit by racing a 250 gp bike in clubmans class a few years ago with all your racing past. That was a good fight wasnt it !!!!
The new bike is a feather in your cap but i dont think you have to talk all but the so called gods on the forum down . Society of auto engineers is far from the bible. its a bit specialised at times dont you think.

Paul.

[Billy]

Hell Chris , some of those comments are a bit beyond left field.
Yes you are a dooer but i also remember you stacking the deck a bit by racing a 250 gp bike in clubmans class a few years ago with all your racing past. That was a good fight wasnt it !!!!
The new bike is a feather in your cap but i dont think you have to talk all but the so called gods on the forum down . Society of auto engineers is far from the bible. its a bit specialised at times dont you think.

Paul.

Actually Paul,I think youll find,This is exactly the sort of posting Chris is referring to.Its neither your place or mine to be deciding what bikes are eligible for clubmans.I mean would you have been happier if he was on say a GSXR1000/600 or R1/6 which are capable of much faster laptimes and are much more user friendly.Add to that the fact the MNZ rule used to be that as long as you hadnt held an MNZ licence for 2 yrs or more you were eligible for clubmans and the fact that the vic club had guidelines in place that Chris clearly didnt breach then I dont see your point.I dont mean for this too be taken as a personal attack and would be the first to condone the huge effort you and Diane are putting in with Nicky,Steve and co.However what chris has done will be hugely beneficial for F3 in the long term and lets face it the older 400s as much as we like them are at the end of their development and are hugely expensive to make competitive for F3 at a national level.Chris is hugely passionate about whatever he gets involved with and hes clearly on to a winner for everybody with this project

[codgyoleracer]

If anyone is looking for servicing or freshing up of their race bikes drop me a line.
Good Quality work at a fair price.
Cheers
Chris:first:

I am certainly happy to vouch for Chris & the quality of both his knowledge & his work. Chris also has a full understanding of racing culture & the specialist mechanical considerations that a racebike often needs. That can be hard to find in little ole New Zealand.
Glen Williams

[Ozzy27]

Hell Chris , some of those comments are a bit beyond left field.
Yes you are a dooer but i also remember you stacking the deck a bit by racing a 250 gp bike in clubmans class a few years ago with all your racing past. That was a good fight wasnt it !!!!
The new bike is a feather in your cap but i dont think you have to talk all but the so called gods on the forum down . Society of auto engineers is far from the bible. its a bit specialised at times dont you think.

Paul.

Hi Paul
The year I raced clubmans was the first year I was back in New Zeand from Europe and I had't raced a bike for over 6 years. If I remember correctly I was racing against a former front running 250 production racer who was also coming back from a break. I make no apoliges for what racing in clubmans. it allowed me to let a rider with a lot more ability to race it in the other clases. This is what I have been doing for the last 20 years!! Also why are you trying to make a attack on my persona?? I dont know you, have never meet you and have never said anything about you!! It is this sort of thing that will always only ever have the "experts" on here! Please come and introduce yourself next time at a race meeting!
I love building and riding race bikes but I also get a kick out of seeing them ridden to their potential which I can never do.
People like myself are the backbone of the sport in NZ and stay around for a lot longer that most riders and put in a lot more money as well.
I say good on you for getting some bikes out there for others to ride we need more people doing that.
I just get really pissed off at all the negativity on here at times and people who are really quick to shoot down an idea. I love debate but it should be considered and thought through. The last thing I would like to say is I HATE!! shit stirrers in racing. If it doesn't affect you or someones saftey stay out of it! If you really want to get involved do it the correct way and get involved with MNZ they are always looking for Helpers.:rockon:

[svr]

Hi Paul
The year I raced clubmans was the first year I was back in New Zeand from Europe and I had't raced a bike for over 6 years. If I remember correctly I was racing against a former front running 250 production racer who was also coming back from a break.

After a 10yr break thought I'd have a race on my road sv... only to be blown away in bloody clubmans:pinch: Was traumatised back into retirement for another 5 yrs, where I should have stayed.
Bit of a cheap shot really, and Chris is right in that historically clubmans enabled 2 riders to use the same bike at a meeting - more riders out there having fun which is what club racing is all about, right? Its a recent and bizzare development that people actually care who wins clubmans races.

Also amusing to read that old thread where people thought the 450 triple would vibrate :yes:.

[roadracingoldfart]

Actually Paul,I think youll find,This is exactly the sort of posting Chris is referring to.Its neither your place or mine to be deciding what bikes are eligible for clubmans.I mean would you have been happier if he was on say a GSXR1000/600 or R1/6 which are capable of much faster laptimes and are much more user friendly.Add to that the fact the MNZ rule used to be that as long as you hadnt held an MNZ licence for 2 yrs or more you were eligible for clubmans and the fact that the vic club had guidelines in place that Chris clearly didnt breach then I dont see your point.I dont mean for this too be taken as a personal attack and would be the first to condone the huge effort you and Diane are putting in with Nicky,Steve and co.However what chris has done will be hugely beneficial for F3 in the long term and lets face it the older 400s as much as we like them are at the end of their development and are hugely expensive to make competitive for F3 at a national level.Chris is hugely passionate about whatever he gets involved with and hes clearly on to a winner for everybody with this project

Well where did i say a certain bike was or wasnt eligible for a class ??
Clubmans is in actual fact full of 600 & 1000 cc bikes , so thats what the class is for , learners on thier bikes developing the required skills to move to thier bikes primary class. I did acurately point out that a GP 250 bike was in clubmans and at the pace it was being riden (very well as always) it was what i would refer to as a boring title as ther wasnt a bike near him all season. I didnt state that anybody breached any rules or guidlines at all so where did that come from?.
I agree the likes of Chris's bike and the SV 650s are going to be great for F3 and the natural development of theses types of bikesmean there will be room for a class like a 400 cup.
I am also hugely passionate in anything i do - well i always try to be.
I dont take anything personally really , i tend to defend others more than myself so no offence taken.

Paul.

[roadracingoldfart]

Hi Paul
The year I raced clubmans was the first year I was back in New Zeand from Europe and I had't raced a bike for over 6 years. If I remember correctly I was racing against a former front running 250 production racer who was also coming back from a break. I make no apoliges for what racing in clubmans. it allowed me to let a rider with a lot more ability to race it in the other clases. This is what I have been doing for the last 20 years!! Also why are you trying to make a attack on my persona?? I dont know you, have never meet you and have never said anything about you!! It is this sort of thing that will always only ever have the "experts" on here! Please come and introduce yourself next time at a race meeting!
I love building and riding race bikes but I also get a kick out of seeing them ridden to their potential which I can never do.
People like myself are the backbone of the sport in NZ and stay around for a lot longer that most riders and put in a lot more money as well.
I say good on you for getting some bikes out there for others to ride we need more people doing that.
I just get really pissed off at all the negativity on here at times and people who are really quick to shoot down an idea. I love debate but it should be considered and thought through. The last thing I would like to say is I HATE!! shit stirrers in racing. If it doesn't affect you or someones saftey stay out of it! If you really want to get involved do it the correct way and get involved with MNZ they are always looking for Helpers.:rockon:

We have met and i also have been racing for over 20 years , i still have my old ACU licence !! .
How can you read into my post that an attack on your persona was the aim or result ? i re read it and cant see that anywhere.
To say you can never ride a bike to its full potential is shit , you are a good rider and im not alone in that train of thought , and you know it yourself.
Your bike building is good and like you i get a kick out of doing well on what is considered underated machines. I campaigned a CB400/4 from 1982 till 1992 so i know what its like to have a bike thats a bit differant.
I would never want to be involved in any way with MNZ as i find them to be a closed door brigade. I rang Paul Pav recently and got the only real set of answers from the organisation for my questions , only because of the racing we have done together in 6 hour events and nationals etc.
Anyone else will normally not get great performance out of them unless they are in the clicky clan.I prefer to stay associated with club level racing and clubs , so do most riders if the amount of attendies at club meetings versus nationals is compared.

PM sent also.

Paul.

[roogazza]

Hi Paul
The year I raced clubmans was the first year I was back in New Zeand from Europe and I had't raced a bike for over 6 years. If I remember correctly I was racing against a former front running 250 production racer who was also coming back from a break. I make no apoliges for what racing in clubmans. it allowed me to let a rider with a lot more ability to race it in the other clases. This is what I have been doing for the last 20 years!! Also why are you trying to make a attack on my persona?? I dont know you, have never meet you and have never said anything about you!! It is this sort of thing that will always only ever have the "experts" on here! Please come and introduce yourself next time at a race meeting!
I love building and riding race bikes but I also get a kick out of seeing them ridden to their potential which I can never do.
People like myself are the backbone of the sport in NZ and stay around for a lot longer that most riders and put in a lot more money as well.
I say good on you for getting some bikes out there for others to ride we need more people doing that.
I just get really pissed off at all the negativity on here at times and people who are really quick to shoot down an idea. I love debate but it should be considered and thought through. The last thing I would like to say is I HATE!! shit stirrers in racing. If it doesn't affect you or someones saftey stay out of it! If you really want to get involved do it the correct way and get involved with MNZ they are always looking for Helpers.:rockon:

Thats a bloody excellent post !

and Clubmans ain't just for squids, some might just be able to wake up a few in other classes ? Gaz.

[TonyB]

Back to the bike.... its an awesome idea Ozzy and I take my hat off to you for actually DOING it rather than just thinking about it.

You mentioned that the counterbalancing piston is draining about 8.5hp. That leads me to some questions (which will be asked in very non technical terms:confused:):
1) on an inline 4 crankshaft, is each piston/rod and crank throw self balancing, or do they work in pairs, with 1 and 2 balancing each other, and 3 and 4 balancing each other?
2) if they are self balancing, is it possible to rebuild the crank so that it just runs straight through- i.e you remove the piston/rod and throw?

I'm picking that if it is possible, it will be bloody expensive...

[glice]

This is a really cool idea. If I was going to race f3 this looks like the bike to go for.
How hard would it be to convert them back to a 600? then you could keep the same bike and step up to f2?

[Mental Trousers]

Well done Chris - the bike sounds awesome and goes well. It definitely looks the most affordable route to a competitive F3 bike - hopefully this innovation leads to a revival of F3 with a bunch of decent, affordable, interesting bikes out there going at it it - as the class was originally intended.

Exactly. This sort of crazy stuff gets me hard. Bring back the innovators so it isn't cheque book racing.


... stuff that sounded like shaun wrote it ...

You've been hanging around that Shaun Harris guy too long mate. But that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Well done mate. It sure sounds like it's a more cost effective route than getting an SV cos pulling bits out of a bike is usually much cheaper than throwing new bits at one!!

It means that someone can run their bike as a 450 in their 1st season then move through to the 600's on the same bike if they like. It could mean the cost of transitioning from F3 to F2 is seriously lower for people who take this route.

3 thumbs up :niceone: :niceone: :niceone: (the middle one is usually not for guys but this sort of project is the exception!!!!)

[Shaun]

ive still got 2x K5 GSXR 600 race bikes, might just have to join ya Chris

[Mental Trousers]

ive still got 2x K5 GSXR 600 race bikes, might just have to join ya Chris
Farken F3 burglars ....

[Shaun]

Farken F3 burglars ....



I just mean to build and sell mine

[scracha]

You guys are on about it being a "cheap way into racing" and the usual "chequebook racer" waffle. I'm sure I heard similar arguments when SV's were first entered in the class....now look at the money that's spent on them. As much as we're proclaiming the virtues of being able to grab cheap not so competitive ex F2 bikes, it's a certainty that a chequebook racer will get a BRAND NEW 600, get it down to 450 and then spend about 25 grand on it.

The 450 is a corker of a bike and a wonderful feat of engineering but if anything it's gonna increase racing costs to similar levels to F2 (more power = more tyres for starters).

Ozzy..still wondering if a trumpy 900 could be cut down to 2 cylinders and a similar trick employed

[Mental Trousers]

Checkbooks always get involved in the end. Especially if a class is tightly restricted by rules. Then everyone is spending big dollars to make sure they're not disadvantaged by maximizing what is allowable.

Innovating is always a gamble. Get money involved and it's about reducing the odds for the best return.

[Ocean1]

Back to the bike.... its an awesome idea Ozzy and I take my hat off to you for actually DOING it rather than just thinking about it.

You mentioned that the counterbalancing piston is draining about 8.5hp. That leads me to some questions (which will be asked in very non technical terms:confused:):
1) on an inline 4 crankshaft, is each piston/rod and crank throw self balancing, or do they work in pairs, with 1 and 2 balancing each other, and 3 and 4 balancing each other?
2) if they are self balancing, is it possible to rebuild the crank so that it just runs straight through- i.e you remove the piston/rod and throw?

I'm picking that if it is possible, it will be bloody expensive...


Was wondering that myself.

When ballancing a crank you clamp weights to the journal, not the full mass of the rod/piston but a corrected mass calculated to have the same effect.

So why couldn't you do the same here? Less friction, slightly less rotational innertia... can't see it affecting ballance vertical moments, and I don't think it'd affect rocking moments...

Cool idea btw. As a matter of interest which is the dead cyl?

[Mental Trousers]

Leaving the piston and rod in place means you don't have to do anything with the cranckshaft. It's heaps cheaper (which was one of his aims I think)

However, if you wanted to lower the amount of horsepower lost to the dummy cylinder you could replace the piston with something that weighs exactly the same but allows air to pass through it to minimize pumping loses and uses rollers to lower friction loses (ie it doesn't need rings because there's no need to seal the cylinder).

[cowpoos]

However, if you wanted to lower the amount of horsepower lost to the dummy cylinder you could replace the piston with something that weighs exactly the same but allows air to pass through it to minimize pumping loses and uses rollers to lower friction loses (ie it doesn't need rings because there's no need to seal the cylinder).

There is a need to seal the cylinder...your crankcase would no longer be pressurised...and you would lose oil aswell...would be messy!

[Mental Trousers]

There is a need to seal the cylinder...your crankcase would no longer be pressurised...and you would lose oil aswell...would be messy!
Not if you seal the entire cylinder off. Bloke the intake and exhaust ports and sparkplug hole and there's no reason to have a piston that seals the cylinder anymore.

[Ocean1]

Leaving the piston and rod in place means you don't have to do anything with the cranckshaft. It's heaps cheaper (which was one of his aims I think)

However, if you wanted to lower the amount of horsepower lost to the dummy cylinder you could replace the piston with something that weighs exactly the same but allows air to pass through it to minimize pumping loses and uses rollers to lower friction loses (ie it doesn't need rings because there's no need to seal the cylinder).

Yup, removing the crank add a bit to costs, not much though.

And with that in mind, to take your idea a tad further... why not just leave the valves in place, (minus the followers?) remove the rings and make a hole in the piston?

Edit: because you'd pump too much oil up top?


There is a need to seal the cylinder...your crankcase would no longer be pressurised...and you would lose oil aswell...would be messy!

... unless you replace the valves?

[k14]

How many rings do these have? You could just go to 1 or 2 rings on the piston, reduce friction slightly for minimal effort??

[Mental Trousers]

And with that in mind, to take your idea a tad further... why not just leave the valves in place, (minus the followers?) remove the rings and make a hole in the piston?

Somewhere above Ozzy said that if the valves are removed the bike is within the rules. Can't think of how you leave the valves to seal off the cylinder unless you alter the cam shaft so they're never lifted, but that means altering a cam shaft.


How many rings do these have? You could just go to 1 or 2 rings on the piston, reduce friction slightly for minimal effort??

Yep. To reduce friction loses to an absolute minimum you'd want to get rid of the rings all together though.

[Cleve]

This is a really cool idea. If I was going to race f3 this looks like the bike to go for.
How hard would it be to convert them back to a 600? then you could keep the same bike and step up to f2?

Or the opposite to some extent. It is wonderful option for older 600's when they are no longer 600SP competitive.

Also wondering if someone will be keen to do a Daytona 450 TWIN by knocking out the middle cylinder on a 675...

[Mental Trousers]

Or the opposite to some extent. It is wonderful option for older 600's when they are no longer 600SP competitive.

Also wondering if someone will be keen to do a Daytona 450 TWIN by knocking out the middle cylinder on a 675...

That'd be criminal!!!! The 675 is :love:

[Ocean1]

Somewhere above Ozzy said that if the valves are removed the bike is within the rules. Can't think of how you leave the valves to seal off the cylinder unless you alter the cam shaft so they're never lifted, but that means altering a cam shaft.

Don't know the engine. Presume it's bucket type followers, if the lift is less than the total thickness of the bucket and shim stack, (probably unlikely) you'd just leave the follower out. If it's more you'd need shorter valves, not the end of the world.

[k14]

Yep. To reduce friction loses to an absolute minimum you'd want to get rid of the rings all together though.
But if you removed all the rings you would loose oil out the exhaust port?? The bike would smoke a bit (not too bad) but the more important thing is that it would loose oil so you could risk it running dry??

[Mental Trousers]

But if you removed all the rings you would loose oil out the exhaust port?? The bike would smoke a bit (not too bad) but the more important thing is that it would loose oil so you could risk it running dry??

I think you missed a post.


Not if you seal the entire cylinder off. Block the intake and exhaust ports and sparkplug hole and there's no reason to have a piston that seals the cylinder anymore.

[scracha]

Also wondering if someone will be keen to do a Daytona 450 TWIN by knocking out the middle cylinder on a 675...
If it's a twin you can go to 650 so get the 955 and lop a cylinder off it.

[Ozzy27]

Back to the bike.... its an awesome idea Ozzy and I take my hat off to you for actually DOING it rather than just thinking about it.

You mentioned that the counterbalancing piston is draining about 8.5hp. That leads me to some questions (which will be asked in very non technical terms:confused:):
1) on an inline 4 crankshaft, is each piston/rod and crank throw self balancing, or do they work in pairs, with 1 and 2 balancing each other, and 3 and 4 balancing each other?
2) if they are self balancing, is it possible to rebuild the crank so that it just runs straight through- i.e you remove the piston/rod and throw?

I'm picking that if it is possible, it will be bloody expensive...

Hi Tony B,
Each piston and rod is balanced by its owm crank web but in a 180 Deg crank 4 cylinder it is also balanced by both the piston next to it in opposite phase and the piston in the same phase. Ie if you cut the engine in half you get a 180 deg parallel twin which has ok primary balance but a large rocking couple trying to rotate the engine. piston 1 is going up as piston 2 is going down the sum of these 2 forces are added together. where as on the 4 cylinder you have a virtual 2nd engine canceling out the rocking couple force.
Yes you could have a crank made without the crank pin but to stop a rocking couple force you would have to have the crank pins spaced at 120 degs. This would also mean new cams, and a redesign of the electronics. All is very possible but Expensive!!
Cheers
Chris

[steveyb]

Ohh I like it when he talks all teknucle like......

A large rocking couple, that's naughty.....

[Ozzy27]

This is a really cool idea. If I was going to race f3 this looks like the bike to go for.
How hard would it be to convert them back to a 600? then you could keep the same bike and step up to f2?

Hi,
The bike in its current state could be changed back to 600sp rules very easily. To make it a front running f3 bike would require pistons, cams and a ported cylinder head. The pistons and cams could be removed easily but once the head was ported a new head would be needed to meet sp rules but for club racing as a step up no worries.

[Ozzy27]

You guys are on about it being a "cheap way into racing" and the usual "chequebook racer" waffle. I'm sure I heard similar arguments when SV's were first entered in the class....now look at the money that's spent on them. As much as we're proclaiming the virtues of being able to grab cheap not so competitive ex F2 bikes, it's a certainty that a chequebook racer will get a BRAND NEW 600, get it down to 450 and then spend about 25 grand on it.

The 450 is a corker of a bike and a wonderful feat of engineering but if anything it's gonna increase racing costs to similar levels to F2 (more power = more tyres for starters).

Ozzy..still wondering if a trumpy 900 could be cut down to 2 cylinders and a similar trick employed

Hi,
I'm sure it could be done to a 955 but with larger pistons you would have a higher HP drain from the balancer cylinder 15+hp at a guess which might make it har to get the hp needed and they are a quite heavy bike aren't they?
As for Cheque book racing. This is motorsport!! it is expensive!! I have still not seem a rules structure that doesn't give the guy with the most money an advantage.
It could be fresher engines, more tyres, a spare bike, more testing, Better people in the pits. But at leats with bikes the guy on top of it makes a huge difference as opposed to cars. Which is why I love bike racing!:Punk:

[Ozzy27]

Was wondering that myself.

When ballancing a crank you clamp weights to the journal, not the full mass of the rod/piston but a corrected mass calculated to have the same effect.

So why couldn't you do the same here? Less friction, slightly less rotational innertia... can't see it affecting ballance vertical moments, and I don't think it'd affect rocking moments...

Cool idea btw. As a matter of interest which is the dead cyl?

Yes this the ideal. The amount of space around the crank pin is nothing! The big end journal wont even clear the cases unless the bolts are pointing down.
This mean the only way to get enough mass is to have it going up the bore and then you have to have some way of keeping it centralised. EG Ducati supermono or as has been suggested in following posts a centralising piston.
No. 2 has been removed which is what I thought would be the best 2 years ago when I first thought of this. But in hindsight I don't think is really matters. The bike came with 2 engines that had dropped valves on No.2 so the decision was easy.:2thumbsup

[Ocean1]

Yes this the ideal. The amount of space around the crank pin is nothing! The big end journal wont even clear the cases unless the bolts are pointing down.
This mean the only way to get enough mass is to have it going up the bore and then you have to have some way of keeping it centralised. EG Ducati supermono or as has been suggested in following posts a centralising piston.
No. 2 has been removed which is what I thought would be the best 2 years ago when I first thought of this. But in hindsight I don't think is really matters. The bike came with 2 engines that had dropped valves on No.2 so the decision was easy.:2thumbsup

Bugger. Still, a lead "bearing" shell inside a steel retainer migh come close... and you could always drill and lead plug the crank. Can't bear the thought of that 8hp just sitting there.

[Ozzy27]

Yup, removing the crank add a bit to costs, not much though.

And with that in mind, to take your idea a tad further... why not just leave the valves in place, (minus the followers?) remove the rings and make a hole in the piston?

Edit: because you'd pump too much oil up top?



... unless you replace the valves?


How many rings do these have? You could just go to 1 or 2 rings on the piston, reduce friction slightly for minimal effort??


Somewhere above Ozzy said that if the valves are removed the bike is within the rules. Can't think of how you leave the valves to seal off the cylinder unless you alter the cam shaft so they're never lifted, but that means altering a cam shaft.



Yep. To reduce friction loses to an absolute minimum you'd want to get rid of the rings all together though.


Don't know the engine. Presume it's bucket type followers, if the lift is less than the total thickness of the bucket and shim stack, (probably unlikely) you'd just leave the follower out. If it's more you'd need shorter valves, not the end of the world.


But if you removed all the rings you would loose oil out the exhaust port?? The bike would smoke a bit (not too bad) but the more important thing is that it would loose oil so you could risk it running dry??

Hi,
To Answer most of above, Yes a dummy piston with the cylinder resealed off might work you would have to ensure what ever was made to take the place of the piston it could handle 16000rpm and at that speed it wasn't still pressurising the crank case too much as it still would have a mass the would displace air.
The current set up still has oil rings and the 2nd compression ring to stop it turning into a big oil pump!(I would guess without rings it would empty the sump in 1-2 laps) and the comp ring also helps to keep the piston central in the bore and dampens out piston chatter that I suspect would happen with no rings as these pistons have a very short skirt.
As for blocking off the ports I thought about cutting threads into some old valves and holding them in place with a pair of nuts locking against each other and to the valve guide. If you cut off the valve stem just above the nuts there would be enough clearance for the cam to pass over.
I have thought about having teflon(or similar) rings made for piston.
I had a target of 90Hp when I started this project and I think this can be achived just with cam and high comp pistons so the expense of making a new type of balancer aren't justified.

[Ozzy27]

Bugger. Still, a lead "bearing" shell inside a steel retainer migh come close... and you could always drill and lead plug the crank. Can't bear the thought of that 8hp just sitting there.

The piston and rod weigh 470 grams so you are going to need 235 grams about which is a bit to try and fit within about 8-10mm of the crank pin. I know what you are saying but as with almost all engineering problems it is a cost vs return equation and for now cams and pistons are a more viable option.:beer:

[Ocean1]

The piston and rod weigh 470 grams so you are going to need 235 grams about which is a bit to try and fit within about 8-10mm of the crank pin. I know what you are saying but as with almost all engineering problems it is a cost vs return equation and for now cams and pistons are a more viable option.:beer:

Remove 235 grams from the other side of the crank?

And yeah, I know you want to actually ride it.

Gets more beer.

[Clivoris]

:2thumbsup:jerry::2thumbsup So much of this is over my head, but I'm loving it.

[Ozzy27]

Remove 235 grams from the other side of the crank?

And yeah, I know you want to actually ride it.

Gets more beer.

Yea you could get good primary balance on this cylinder but as this weight would be different from the other cylinders you would get the rocking couple force in the crankshaft which I think would not last too long at 16000 rpm.
I remember Jimmy Steadmans 750 tripple 2 stroke when they got the balance factor wrong the found out on a computer simulation the the out of balance force was around 2 tons. The rider couldn't do more that a few laps before his arm went totally numb. They finished up with a non even crank pin stagger and got the balance vector down to a couple of hundred kgs.

[Ocean1]

Yea you could get good primary balance on this cylinder but as this weight would be different from the other cylinders you would get the rocking couple force in the crankshaft which I think would not last too long at 16000 rpm.
I remember Jimmy Steadmans 750 tripple 2 stroke when they got the balance factor wrong the found out on a computer simulation the the out of balance force was around 2 tons. The rider couldn't do more that a few laps before his arm went totally numb. They finished up with a non even crank pin stagger and got the balance vector down to a couple of hundred kgs.

True. And yes the numbers get big at those sort of revs. Surprises me what some guys get away with when changing pistons on big singles let alone more serious surgery on a 600.

Good luck with it mate, enjoy the season.

[vtec]

Brilliant.

Time to look for cheap 600's with a failed valve or two :). Who needs performance mods for club level. Just ride the pants off a stocker. For nationals though, mods would be good.

The way Ozzy B has done it is brilliant and relatively simple from what I can tell. minimal piston air resistance on the second cylinder by removing the valves.

Was there anything involved electronically? or did you just remove the injector and spark plug and lead?

[proudwanker]

new zealand seems to have a lot of poeple who say you cant do this or that wont work. Just look at a few of the "experts" who posted here http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=77299
that said this would not work. Well it works!! It is going to be raced!! The rule book does not need to be rewriten as this is not a "cylinder" in the context of capacity.if anyone wants to fight over it bring it on!! Bring your cheque book and your lawyer because you will have a fight on your hands!! Ask about, i know what i am talking about and i am a doer! Not a talker or an "expert" who sits on a computer 24/7 telling people "how it is".
All you "experts" should spend some time reading something that may teach you something(sae articles etc) instead of hanging around forums trying to out do each other!
:done::done:



hahahaha gotta love the ozzy and his diplomacy

[johnsv650]

has mnz replied to your questions ?

[TonyB]

Yes you could have a crank made without the crank pin but to stop a rocking couple force you would have to have the crank pins spaced at 120 degs. This would also mean new cams, and a redesign of the electronics. All is very possible but Expensive!!
Cheers
ChrisThanks for the detailed answer Ozzy. So its do-able, but even more difficult and expensive than I thought! I had a reason for asking- the whole concept of this bike is brilliant, to produce a good modern F3 bike relatively cheaply. It seems to me that if there are around 8 extra hp lurking in the engine which are only obtainable by spending LOADS of money, then maybe MNZ should consider making illegal any modifications that remove the balancing piston. That would prevent racers with VERY deep pockets having bikes with approx 10% more power than anyone else can afford.

Just a thought!

[svr]

Thanks for the detailed answer Ozzy. So its do-able, but even more difficult and expensive than I thought! I had a reason for asking- the whole concept of this bike is brilliant, to produce a good modern F3 bike relatively cheaply. It seems to me that if there are around 8 extra hp lurking in the engine which are only obtainable by spending LOADS of money, then maybe MNZ should consider making illegal any modifications that remove the balancing piston. That would prevent racers with VERY deep pockets having bikes with approx 10% more power than anyone else can afford.

Just a thought!

Mate, F3 is a class whereby anyone with VERY deep pockets could blow everyone else out of the water using any one of the available chasis / engine configurations available. The japanese factories used to race F3 bikes that might have beaten NZ F2 bikes back in the day. They were serious - they used to put riders like Doug Polen on them.

[Shaun]

Mate, F3 is a class whereby anyone with VERY deep pockets could blow everyone else out of the water using any one of the available chasis / engine configurations available. The japanese factories used to race F3 bikes that might have beaten NZ F2 bikes back in the day. They were serious - they used to put riders like Doug Polen on them.


Agreed, great eh

The japanese series was very serious for that class, and the bikes were very very fast!

[TonyB]

Mate, F3 is a class whereby anyone with VERY deep pockets could blow everyone else out of the water using any one of the available chasis / engine configurations available. The japanese factories used to race F3 bikes that might have beaten NZ F2 bikes back in the day. They were serious - they used to put riders like Doug Polen on them.

Are you saying that NZ should go the same way? Japan has a population of nearly 130,000,000 and is one of the worlds biggest economies. NZ has a population of a little over 4,000,000 and our economy is a drop in the bucket by comparison. The Japanese can no doubt fill grids with awesome race bikes, here in NZ there might be a couple that can afford to do it in F3.

[svr]

Are you saying that NZ should go the same way? Japan has a population of nearly 130,000,000 and is one of the worlds biggest economies. NZ has a population of a little over 4,000,000 and our economy is a drop in the bucket by comparison. The Japanese can no doubt fill grids with awesome race bikes, here in NZ there might be a couple that can afford to do it in F3.

Of course not! Thats why Ozzies thing appeals - it suits a class that suits local racers.

[TonyB]

Just checking. Looks like we agree after all:laugh: I think Ozzy's is idea brilliant. I wonder though if the rules shouldn't include something to stop this crank mod from being done, just to make sure it stays economical.

[FROSTY]

Goddarn it I can't get that darn bike outa my head.
Ever since I heard about it I just loved the idea.

[Mishy]

Just checking. Looks like we agree after all:laugh: I think Ozzy's is idea brilliant. I wonder though if the rules shouldn't include something to stop this crank mod from being done, just to make sure it stays economical.
I totally disagree ! It's a Formula class, so pretty much anything goes - and that's the way it should be. F3 is about the only place where someone with a great ides and the ability to follow with it through can build something different and exciting. I have been intrigued and enthusiastic abiut Chris's Triple since he first mentioned the idea quite some time ago. His 450 will be very economical compared to a monster hotrod SV650, or a Tigcraft, and thats exciting. There are already guys out there spending a lot of money on F3 bikes, and that's just not going to change If anyone wants to push the concept further (within the class rules of course) then GOOD LUCK TO THEM ! Bring it on. If we rule everything out because " It could be too expensive for some people, and what if ..... " them we'll only see the same old stuff turning out year after year. I hope we see more of this sort of thing in the future, and that this only the beginning. It would be such a pity to stifle what creativity is still out there, and in the only class where you can still use it, just for the sake of protecting the unimaginative from the threat of great ideas. If you want everybody to be able to participate at the same level for the same money you are in the wrong sport - simple.

[Cleve]

I totally disagree ! It's a Formula class, so pretty much anything goes - and that's the way it should be. F3 is about the only place where someone with a great ides and the ability to follow with it through can build something different and exciting. I have been intrigued and enthusiastic abiut Chris's Triple since he first mentioned the idea quite some time ago. His 450 will be very economical compared to a monster hotrod SV650, or a Tigcraft, and thats exciting. There are already guys out there spending a lot of money on F3 bikes, and that's just not going to change If anyone wants to push the concept further (within the class rules of course) then GOOD LUCK TO THEM ! Bring it on. If we rule everything out because " It could be too expensive for some people, and what if ..... " them we'll only see the same old stuff turning out year after year. I hope we see more of this sort of thing in the future, and that this only the beginning. It would be such a pity to stifle what creativity is still out there, and in the only class where you can still use it, just for the sake of protecting the unimaginative from the threat of great ideas. If you want everybody to be able to participate at the same level for the same money you are in the wrong sport - simple.

Amen to that. I also think it quite wonderful that we have Mr Shaun Harris attempting a class that is more along the "economical" line. Power to both ideas I say.

[Shaun]

I am taking a very cool K5 GSXR 600 to Manfeild this weekend, with only 3000Kz on it, New Race pipe, Yoshi Footpegs, Yoshi instrument bracket, Yoshi ECU, Power commander, Light weight rear sub frame, New Race body work, Complet K7 GSXR ) front end.

Another $1 grand on top of sale price, and yay, there is another trick F3 Bike for $10K The $1K is my guess for work by OZZY

[Cleve]

I am taking a very cool K5 GSXR 600 to Manfeild this weekend, with only 3000Kz on it, New Race pipe, Yoshi Footpegs, Yoshi instrument bracket, Yoshi ECU, Power commander, Light weight rear sub frame, New Race body work, Complet K7 GSXR ) front end.

Another $1 grand on top of sale price, and yay, there is another trick F3 Bike for $10K The $1K is my guess for work by OZZY

niiiiiice, this just could be the revival F3 has needed since the SV's were allowed (then kind of got spoiled by their dominance)...

[Ozzy27]

has mnz replied to your questions ?

Jim dougherty From MNZ has been around last weekend to inspect the 450 and Gave it the Big Tick !!!!:woohoo:
So onto the next stage!
Look out for it on a track near you!
Cheers All
Chris

[Ivan]

thats good news cant wait to see more of these they are really making f3 a cool class I know my brother wants to go to a 600 but this is probably the perfect thing for someone like him after another season on the 125

[gav]

Jim dougherty From MNZ has been around last weekend to inspect the 450 and Gave it the Big Tick !!!!:woohoo:
So onto the next stage!
Look out for it on a track near you!
Cheers All
Chris
Excellent! Congratulations on your efforts!!

[Shaun]

Jim dougherty From MNZ has been around last weekend to inspect the 450 and Gave it the Big Tick !!!!:woohoo:
So onto the next stage!
Look out for it on a track near you!
Cheers All
Chris



Yea but Im worth 20 HP ya fat basstewerd, so who is gunna ride it in the nats then?

[codgyoleracer]

Hey thats good news Chris !
GlenW

[Ozzy27]

:bleh::bleh::bleh::bleh::bleh:
I think the weekend has proved that a bit of inovative thinking and hard work can work out really well. A bike that would cost between 10-15k total to build can win at national level With a GOOD RIDER on board.
This shoots down all the talk of cheque book racers and shows get out there and try things and you might just exceed your expectations!:bleh:
The other important things were it looked good and sounded really cool as well as being fast!
So all you out there what other ideas are out there for a cool F3 race bike???:first:

[codgyoleracer]

My seven valve 1000cc single is underway.

[slowpoke]

My seven valve 1000cc single is underway.

Did someone say "oval piston"?

[codgyoleracer]

Did someone say "oval piston"?

Nah, but you should see the helium filled carbon fibre crank for it mate - i have to tie to the floor it s so light.

[Billy]

Nah, but you should see the helium filled carbon fibre crank for it mate - i have to tie to the floor it s so light.

The only helium filled crank on your bike would be the rider

[Clivoris]

The only helium filled crank on your bike would be the rider

:rofl:10 points for timing and execution there sir.

[scracha]

Nah, but you should see the helium filled carbon fibre crank for it mate - i have to tie to the floor it s so light.

I'm sure the Vic Club muttered something about 300Kg minimum wet weight for riders with a surname starting with W.

[svr]

:bleh::bleh::bleh::bleh::bleh:
So all you out there what other ideas are out there for a cool F3 race bike???:first:

1. Easton - style bike that doesn't overheat or wobble - maybe based around 250 gp chassis?
2. Destroked 600 of course! - Certain South Island types are cooking these up. An R6 only has to lose 10mm of stroke. All that valve area, mmm. An issue getting squish / compression back maybe? Could a crank be modified to move the pins in 5mm? Expensive and Peaky but probably the ultimate option.
3. Super-single (KTM Duke engine?) in 250gp style chassis. This would be the nicest to ride. KTM have built / tested one of these and according to them is as quick as a SS600
4. All-purpose Commuter SV. This remains the option of choice for riding to / racing / riding home / and to work on monday. Nice soft seat, plenty of room for saddlebags, etc....

Geez, what a great class aye! Something there for everyone. Makes you wonder why there were only 11 of us out there on Sunday...

These are ideas - Hats off to Ozzie and Jason for making their ideas work, and to Genn W and Terry Fitz for developing (and riding) the SV F3 concept to its practical limit.

[cowpoos]

I'm sure the Vic Club muttered something about 300Kg minimum wet weight for riders with a surname starting with W.
yeah....that coz with a last name starting with 'W' we're to quick for you beggers eh stevie :P

[cowpoos]

So all you out there what other ideas are out there for a cool F3 race bike???:first:

Well...I have this NSR250 mc28 chassis [mag 17 wheels...single sided swingarm model]...that I was gunna stick a kx500 engine in...but now I'm thinking either a small snowmobile engine with CVT transmission or a Higher powered quad engine with a CVT trans [most of the quad CVT trans have the ability to have adjustable engine braking]...I reckon it would be a fair Goer...always in the right gear at the right time,etc,etc constant linear loading on the suspension....less to worry about...[and no need for one of those expesive quickshifters..lol ]

[scracha]

yeah....that coz with a last name starting with 'W' we're to quick for you beggers eh stevie :P


You faster than moi? Don't be silly poo's.

The 300Kg was the bike's weight BTW :innocent:

[cowpoos]

You faster than moi? Don't be silly poo's.

The 300Kg was the bike's weight BTW :innocent:
I'ld kick you arse around manfield in a leaky old wooden dingy with only one oar!!

[Shaun]

Jim dougherty From MNZ has been around last weekend to inspect the 450 and Gave it the Big Tick !!!!:woohoo:
So onto the next stage!
Look out for it on a track near you!
Cheers All
Chris



Next stage? I have exactaully what I sold you to build the first one here mate.

K6 GSXR 600
Yoshi ECU
Yoshi Pipe
Yoshi footpegs
Penske Shock
Standard forks

$8500