Sprot Bike v Motard

[The Stranger]

Lets just take a random motard and a random sprot bike.
Say 100 hp difference between the 2.

Hypothetical ride up north of Auckland then along Paparoa rd.
For those that don't know Paparoa rd it's a sealed twisty goat track.

Forgetting for the moment about tickets, on the way up there the Motard is going to get slaughtered, hell it probably tops out at 180kph. Get to Paparoa rd though and things change, the sprot bike now has a fight on it's hands.

Why is it that the motard gains such a huge advantage from the twisties?

[limbimtimwim]

Why is it that the motard gains such a huge advantage from the twisties?Because the person on the sports bike didn't harden the fuck up and just ride through it.

[Ocean1]

Weight.

If you're going to be chucking it around on questionable surfaces it really really matters.

[Mental Trousers]

Weight, geometry, riding poition and suspension.

Dirt bike derived geometry, riding position and suspension works better in tight stuff, especially if it's rough. Sprots boiks are designed and setup for faster, smoother roads so the geometry, riding position, suspension and weight distribution is different.

[kevfromcoro]

Glad you bought this up.......just watched a video where a 660 yam... beat an R1......was twisty though......
well i thought the the R1 would of creamed him....but he didnt....
thoughts????????

[The Stranger]

Glad you bought this up.......just watched a video where a 660 yam... beat an R1......was twisty though......
well i thought the the R1 would of creamed him....but he didnt....
thoughts????????

My thoughts.

Weight doesn't matter.
The 660 is 170kg dry, what is an R1? I am guessing not too far off that.


The 660 is 41hp at the rear wheel std, best I have heard of is 56 from a highly modded one, so we are going to be close to my 100hp difference - give or take.

[BarBender]

Leverage from the handlebars and riding position
Vision from the upright riding position
Useable power for the road

[Big Dave]

Doesn't matter - it's only Random.

[carver]

the more determined rider always wins

[98tls]

the more determined rider always wins Nope the better rider wins,within reason what is being ridden is irrelevant.On a good bit of road anyway.

[kevfromcoro]

the more determined rider always wins

true........ compition futhers the breed.......
but i cant beleive a motard would beat a sprotbike.....

[R6_kid]

I think it's because the motard rider was starting to feel old and decided he had something to prove, whereas the younger sportsbike rider knew he would be getting laid when he got back to Auckland and decided to take it easy and save his energy for other activities.

[carver]

Nope the better rider wins,within reason what is being ridden is irrelevant.On a good bit of road anyway.


true.....very true


true........ compition futhers the breed.......
but i cant beleive a motard would beat a sprotbike.....

i can and have done so

[98tls]

Though not a Motard you only have to look at events like the Wanganui St races to see size is irrelevant,on a real road in the real world things are evened up more methinks.Look at a Busa,any clown can do warp speed down some endless straight but come a decent bit of road a motard or 600/750 sport bike would be my pick anyday.

[The Stranger]

I think it's because the motard rider was starting to feel old and decided he had something to prove, whereas the younger sportsbike rider knew he would be getting laid when he got back to Auckland and decided to take it easy and save his energy for other activities.

With all the energy you were saving I bet she had the best 60 seconds of her life that day.

Mind you, the motard rider did feel fucken old today - beer, bourbon, champagne and 3 bottles of port can do that to you though.

Oh and yours it the longest Gareth - burn out that is, but the Busa had the highest carbon foot print.

[Kiwi Graham]

Its the rider that makes the difference!!!
However...........
A motard gives you the impression it is more flickable on tight twisty stuff prob because of the leverage you get from the MX bars and its narrow profile, the supple suspension lets you get away with some pretty aggressive stuff.
A sprot bike works best on consistant bump free tarseal where higher corner speeds and predictable breaking points are the go.

You've had both Stanger whats you best guess??

[carver]

i think a naked is the fastest....

i have had nakeds, sportsbikes, and a motard

[hospitalfood]

get the impression you have already done this ride, and i feel sad that you did not drop in to see if i was keen.
i like the idea of getting kicked by a motard.
you can find me at the paparoa end of the pap oakley rd next time. sometimes there is beer in the fridge ( what i really mean is sometimes i will share it )

[nallac]

bloody good road that one.
i got spanked by a SV650 along there.
got to admit it was my first time across there.


with a lower powered motard you can stay on the throttle
all the way corners or straights.
no need to slow down cause your'e not doing 200k's into the corner.

[The Stranger]

Its the rider that makes the difference!!!
However...........
A motard gives you the impression it is more flickable on tight twisty stuff prob because of the leverage you get from the MX bars and its narrow profile, the supple suspension lets you get away with some pretty aggressive stuff.
A sprot bike works best on consistant bump free tarseal where higher corner speeds and predictable breaking points are the go.

You've had both Stanger whats you best guess??

Certainly on the likes of Paparoa rd where it is pretty rough it is handy to have lots of suspension travel. The sport bike riders were being rogered by the bumps. That said, even on quite smooth twisties the motard finds a cornering advantage, so is this the main difference?

As noted, weight does not appear to me to be a big determining factor - the XT isn't light.

I have always favoured upright and wide bars. Wasn't sure if that gave an advantage in twisties or not, but it sure feels like it.

I would invariably fuck up a corner somewhere in a series on a sport bike with narrow bars. By fuck up, I mean find myself in a less than optimal position or line or have to reduce speed to correct. Upright and with wide bars I put the bike where I want it when I want it pretty well every time.


I like the narrow high pegs - psychologically, you know you have reserves, if the corner tightens or you have over cooked, hey just lean further.

[The Stranger]

get the impression you have already done this ride, and i feel sad that you did not drop in to see if i was keen.
i like the idea of getting kicked by a motard.
you can find me at the paparoa end of the pap oakley rd next time. sometimes there is beer in the fridge ( what i really mean is sometimes i will share it )

My humble apologies sir.
Got to amit, I couldn't remember your logon - until I noticed a few of your posts recently.

I would have thought the Buell would be pretty fucking good on that road some how.

[Big Dave]

I would have thought the Buell would be pretty fucking good on that road some how.

Imagine if you could cross a sprots bike with a motard and give it touring bike potential as well.

<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/david_cohen_design/.Pictures/misc3/bwuly.jpg">

[98tls]

Imagine if you could cross a sprots bike with a motard and give it touring bike potential as well.

<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/david_cohen_design/.Pictures/misc3/bwuly.jpg"> And a ladder for short buggers.

[The Stranger]

Imagine if you could cross a sprots bike with a motard and give it touring bike potential as well.

Yes, I was Dave.

[Big Dave]

07 & 08 models have lowered seat for the weiners.

[hospitalfood]

the buell is good on the pap oakley, not sure if i can say the same about myself.....
just starting to get it back after a wet winter off the bike.
the buell is bloody nice in a counter steer, and very flickable.
having said that im sure Rossi could kill me on a GN250.

[98tls]

07 & 08 models have lowered seat for the weiners. Actually Dave i wasnt worried about my dick.

[Big Dave]

Yes, I was Dave.

Tiger 1050 will do all that too. Needs a suspension upgrade, but yuuuuumy motor.

[beyond]

Imagine if you could cross a sprots bike with a motard and give it touring bike potential as well.

<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/david_cohen_design/.Pictures/misc3/bwuly.jpg">


Don't imagine. It's just got to be a GSX1400 :)

[Big Dave]

Don't imagine. It's just got to be a GSX1400 :)

That's fun ey! Imagine getting decent air on one.
I watched stretch take a standard Bonneville around a motocross track a while ago. That made some interesting noises too.

Give you and random credit for the enthusiasm - rate the bike highly too - but she's too wide for spec.

The buell is a bit porky.

The big katooms are closer in performance and handling but are as uncomfortable as the sprotsbike

[SixPackBack]

Not that I would ever get involved with such anti social behaviour as riding over the speed limit on deserted country roads with good mates while tunes blasted through my helmet and induction roar through my soul:whistle:
But if I did.............gravel, slips and teeth jarring road surface was the leveler;)

[Ocean1]

The more I think about it the less obvious the differences are. The feel and technique sure seem different but it's hard to put a finger on what makes it so.

There's a few cross-over bikes that blur the boundaries, which might make things clearer, if we had the spec's.

So which dedicated soul (not on dial-up) is going to round up some specification comparisons? Weight, rake, trail, wheelbase, suspension travel/quality...

[Sam I Am]

with a lower powered motard you can stay on the throttle
all the way corners or straights.
no need to slow down cause your'e not doing 200k's into the corner.

translation.... If I rode slower I would get there a lot quicker.....

[xwhatsit]

I wonder if there would be a difference in results between the amateurs here and the guys at the very peak of professional riding in sportsbikes and motards.

I suspect, at least from a DRZ400SM, that the biggest gain you get from a motard is simply confidence. The suspension soaking up your mistakes and excess enthusiasm, the amount of leverage on the bars and lack of horsepower meaning you never need to worry about grabbing too much throttle for your current situation. Plenty of other things too.

Talking out of my arse (hell, I've ridden one small motard for a couple of hours and a couple of 600-fours/850-twins), I don't think they're inherently faster (maybe if the road is particularly rough and shitty, and/or really, really tight), but in short, the guy on the sportsbike is constantly (comparatively) shitting himself and having to temper his riding to keep the thing on the road, while the guy on the supermoto can simply open the throttle and thrash the shit out of the thing without worry. Sportsbiker can only ride at six tenths or he'll fill his pants or highside, whereas the motard can ride at ten tenths.

If you got a international-level sportsbiker, and an international-level supermoto rider, and sent them up a hill that they both knew well, you might see different results -- confidence and the rider's abilities have much less of an influence then.

[Big Dave]

xwhatsit

<img src="http://homepage.mac.com/david_cohen_design/.Pictures/misc3/Lolcano.gif">

[xwhatsit]

xwhatsit
Am I really that far off? :D

Oh, you mean the name? Changed it just to make it easier for you ^^

[Big Dave]

Am I really that far off? :D

I didn't actaully read the post. The name change got me.

[Motu]

For me it's the wide bars,quicker geometry,higher CG and longer travel suspension that make a bike with a dirt bike set up much better on twisty roads.I don't ride motards,but have used adventure bikes for the 21st century.A road bike (I don't ride sports bikes either) with slower geometry (not really for the sprotsbike) narrow bars,arm weight on bars and short travel suspension is a lot harder to change direction on...they are more committed to a line and need much more input is needed to change course.Big bars make a road bike much more flickable.

[Gremlin]

Motu sums up a lot I would say, but one thing I don't think anyone has said is power delivery. Not just usable power, but how it delivers it.

Currently have a modified zx10, all custom dyno'd etc, yet, in tight twisty stuff, its easier to push a cb900 through, because the power comes on from down low, traction isn't really an issue and wide bars make it very easy to flick from side to side.

Less power can actually make you go faster. With the 10, I constantly have to keep the throttle in check, as the tyres can't cope with the power. As soon as it opens up a bit more than really tight twisties, then yes, the zx10 would have a naked bike for breakfast, but then you're over 100kph constantly...

I have more fun on the naked too. :Punk:

[Bass]

Motu sums up a lot I would say, but one thing I don't think anyone has said is power delivery. Not just usable power, but how it delivers it.



I seem to recall that when F1 went from 1.5 litres turbo'd to 3 litres normally aspirated, the horsepower halved but the lap times came down for exactly this reason.

[Motardman]

For me its front end confidance.....even though my old gixer felt planted I always knew that it was a fine line between grip and fooked (front end wise....backend isn't so bad unless its highside violent..)

With my motard sliding the rear is very easy but what's more surprising is that when the frontend starts to move its not sphincter tightening as recovery seems easier....whether it's the light front end, higher centre of gravity, softer suspension or greater travel......I'm thinking it's probably a combo of all....then it gives the rider more confidance to push further.

On the racetrack the sportbike will get closer to that confidance as you remove dodgy road surfaces etc. so hence the times tighten up again (dependant on circuit style of course).

Having ridden both I can honestly say I love both for their different merits.....gimme a sportsbike for the track (unless you live in perfect asphalt land) and a motard for the road and I'll be happy.

[Kiwi Graham]

Motu sums up a lot I would say, but one thing I don't think anyone has said is power delivery. Not just usable power, but how it delivers it.

Currently have a modified zx10, all custom dyno'd etc, yet, in tight twisty stuff, its easier to push a cb900 through, because the power comes on from down low, traction isn't really an issue and wide bars make it very easy to flick from side to side.

Less power can actually make you go faster. With the 10, I constantly have to keep the throttle in check, as the tyres can't cope with the power. As soon as it opens up a bit more than really tight twisties, then yes, the zx10 would have a naked bike for breakfast, but then you're over 100kph constantly...

I have more fun on the naked too. :Punk:

+1. To much power on the wrong type of road is going to slow you down. There's alot to be said for 'usable power', the confidence to explore limits without fear of catastophe!