Crappy cornering technique

[slofox]

Was heading to Auks in the cage last Saturday arvo - round about the drag track at Meremere, when a bike of a certain American make came roaring through the lanes, weaving through the traffic and then proceeded into the next right hander.....he was in the righthand lane.....watched him try to lean through the corner but he was leaning OUT of the corner, not into it....sort of pushing the bike down towards the road but leaning the other way......well he totally lost it, couldn't get round, ended up hitting the anchors, crossing, without control, into the left hand lane and generally buggering up his impression ratio..:crazy:..lucky for him the left lane was clear where he was so no grief ensued......
Anyway, he is not the first rider I have seen try to corner like that....kinda looking like a dirt tracker cept no foot down....anyone else see this happening? Makes you wonder if the licence came out of a weetbix packet........or what...:weird:

[awayatc]

Sounds like the way you corner a three wheeled motorbike.....
So he probably only had taken of the training wheels that same day....:niceone:

[Bend-it]

Yes, I have seen it... kinda like what you do for low speed handling, where you'd turn the handlebars one direction and counter-lean so the bike doesn't drop unceremoniously on its side?

I've seen bikers countersteer with the handlebars, while trying to keep their body straight and so leaning abit opposite to the bike (and done that myself too sometimes out of being lazy to shift my weight).

I haven't come to grief doing it 'coz I'm only lazy on the lazy corners... :)

Is this what you're talking about?

[Big Dave]

It's called countersteering.

The RRRS course recommends it for low to moderate speed and tight maneuvers.

There is a point of diminishing return where it all turns to custard - eg.

[KiwiRat]

Sounds like that guy found the point of no return, and then went past it to see what was ahead.

Could you hear the sphincter puckering?

[slofox]

Yes, I have seen it... kinda like what you do for low speed handling, where you'd turn the handlebars one direction and counter-lean so the bike doesn't drop unceremoniously on its side?

I've seen bikers countersteer with the handlebars, while trying to keep their body straight and so leaning abit opposite to the bike (and done that myself too sometimes out of being lazy to shift my weight).

I haven't come to grief doing it 'coz I'm only lazy on the lazy corners... :)

Is this what you're talking about?

Guess so - although I try not to do that at all myself......and this dude was not in a low speed situation either.....

[slofox]

So he probably only had taken of the training wheels that same day....:niceone:

heheheeeeee:devil2:

[Rosie]

After practising various different cornering techniques, I've found that leaning the bike into the corner, and leaning away from it is the smoothest and most comfortable way of cornering on my chook chaser.

Different bike geometries require different handling techniques.

[slofox]

Could you hear the sphincter puckering?

I wondered what the TWANGGGGGGGGgggggg noise was.......:clap:

[discotex]

It's called countersteering.


That's not what I'd call counter-steering. Counter-steering is how you turn the bars to make the bike lean over not how you position your weight.

I suspect you meant counter-LEANING which you do during low speed maneuvering.

Counter-leaning at high speed will get you in a world of trouble as it reduces your clearance (opposite to hanging off).

Strangely it is usually cruiser riders I spot doing this. Odd as I'd expect they'd want to preserve all available lean angle.... Does help remove chicken strips at lower speeds though if that's important to you.

[Big Dave]

That's not what I'd call counter-steering. Counter-steering is how you turn the bars to make the bike lean over not how you position your weight.

I suspect you meant counter-LEANING which you do during low speed maneuvering.

Counter-leaning at high speed will get you in a world of trouble as it reduces your clearance (opposite to hanging off).

Strangely it is usually cruiser riders I spot doing this. Odd as I'd expect they'd want to preserve all available lean angle.... Does help remove chicken strips at lower speeds though if that's important to you.

I know exactly what I mean thanks - and that ain't it.

[Hitcher]

My cornering lines are impeccible, nay perfect. Which makes me highly qualified to pour scorn and derision upon any other biker I observe who lacks such finely honed skills. Not.

[The Pastor]

Harleys and cruisers do use an opersit lean technique not sure if it works as ive never use it before.

[skidMark]

It is called lean out, it can work used correctly and lets you change line very quickly if need be, i am personallity a lean in countersteer like a bastard person, but on gravel roads its stand up...lean over ther front, and get her sideways.

[vifferman]

Harleys and cruisers do use an opersit lean technique not sure if it works as ive never use it before.
Bollocks.
Like someone else said - if anything they need to hang off on the inside, due to limited cornering clearance. As BD said (I think...), pushing the bike down into the corner works well for slow-speed turns such as carpark manoeuvering, but that's about it.
Something I have seen a lot when following some crusier riders is not keeping their head level and looking through the corners: their whole body is in a straight line through the bike. Not the best technique - most people learn not to do that very early on.

[Swoop]

But!!!!

Did the rider wave???


:Pokey:

[slofox]

Strangely it is usually cruiser riders I spot doing this. Odd as I'd expect they'd want to preserve all available lean angle....

Agree........:niceone:.....This guy was a prime example of getting in the shit by using poor technique.

[The Pastor]

bollocks.
Like someone else said - if anything they need to hang off on the inside, due to limited cornering clearance. As bd said (i think...), pushing the bike down into the corner works well for slow-speed turns such as carpark manoeuvering, but that's about it.
Something i have seen a lot when following some crusier riders is not keeping their head level and looking through the corners: Their whole body is in a straight line through the bike. Not the best technique - most people learn not to do that very early on.
weather its correct or not doesnt change the fact that they still do it.

[Goblin]

I wondered what the TWANGGGGGGGGgggggg noise was.......:clap:Then again...coulda been the rubber band twanging.:banana:

[TimeOut]

I've seen it on quite a few U-Tube video clips, outcome usually not good.

Your chap was lucky it wasn't a left hander with a truck coming the other way:nono:

[OutForADuck]

Actually its a technique I would use with regularity. But probably in a slightly different way. When I have, say, a left hander that enters into a right hander (S's for instance) the rapid transition from hanging off the left to hanging off the right can produce some horrible upsetting motion on the bike.

Rather than do this, in this situation, given that ground clearance is not an issue on the first curve, I might set myself up and "lock in" for the second curve and ride through first curve easier and second harder, but wihout moving my body at all during the manouvre (using counter-steering to effect rapid direction change)

Your body weight is used primarily to stabilise the bike and secondly to gain a little less lean angle.. most of the time on modern sports bike the latter doesn't come into question too often :niceone:

[slofox]

When I have, say, a left hander that enters into a right hander (S's for instance) the rapid transition from hanging off the left to hanging off the right can produce some horrible upsetting motion on the bike.

In my own case, I like to keep my body centre right in the middle of the bike ie I don't hang off. I will lean the upper body into a corner if necessary but I don't "climb off" as such - the centre stays on the tank.......so S's don't cause me the problem you have since I don't have to move around as much. Just my preference - I have always loved that feeling of being part of the machine.....

[johan]

Like this, 0:30 into the video. LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK9KdTEYL2M

[Pussy]

I've got a good PC analysis of the described event... a shit for brains twat who can't ride to save him/her self. That just about covers it :niceone:

[Big Dave]

--------------------

[slofox]

--------------------

Saw this sequence myself a day or two ago BD - was gonna post it but ya did it for me - t'anx.....:first:

[Big Dave]

Yeah - done more rounds than Ali. Still makes me shake my head and skin crawl.

I've crashed slower than that and had friction burns through a full leather suit.

[Big Dave]

Hyar mr disco - this is what I meanses - This is the demonstration of countersteering at an RRRS course.

This bike was travelling in excess of 70kph and cleared all the obstacles (and the daft photographer lying in front of it).

[98tls]

-------------------- Are those pics taken at Deals Gap do you know?

[Big Dave]

Are those pics taken at Deals Gap do you know?

reckon - that guy whatsisname - you know.

[discotex]

Hyar mr disco - this is what I meanses - This is the demonstration of countersteering at an RRRS course.

This bike was travelling in excess of 70kph and cleared all the obstacles (and the daft photographer lying in front of it).

Yep, they'd have to be counter-steering the bike but your photo shows a person counter-leaning.

Basically you're combining two terms into one.

The counter-steering is the turning of the bars the opposite direction to the direction you want to go which allows you to flick the bike backwards and forwards.

The counter-leaning is balancing the turning forces at lower speed motorcross style.

Actually a pretty good explanation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Best vid I ever found when I was learning to ride:
http://www.livevideo.com/video/RideYourRide/312271B36D844390B6122827DE5E79C5/3-24-07-part-2-countersteeri.aspx

EDIT: And just so we're clear I'm not having a go at you by splitting hairs mate. Just trying to avoid the newbies getting confused when they see the term being used.

[Big Dave]

Basically you're combining two terms into one.

.


No. I am not. It's not that fuckin hard.

Next.


Rec'd some PM's over this post - I haven't got the shits - honestly - just bantering - it's truly not that hard.

Bike tips - you stay upright = countersteering. It doesn't matter if you grab the bars with your dick - or what someone wrote on wikipedia

[Horse]

Bike tips - you stay upright = countersteering.

I am a n00b. And in that year of n00bness, this is absolutely the first time that someone has given me that definition for the word "countersteering". Every other time has been defined as (roughly) "pushing the bar in the opposite direction of your turn to increase your lean and thus decrease your current turn radius".

I'm sorry Dave, you're without a doubt a KB legend, and your knowledge of riding on two wheels is to mine as a planetary body is to a gnat, but I think you're somehow confused here.

[Big Dave]

I am a n00b. And in that year of n00bness, this is absolutely the first time that someone has given me that definition for the word "countersteering". Every other time has been defined as (roughly) "pushing the bar in the opposite direction of your turn to increase your lean and thus decrease your current turn radius".

I'm sorry Dave, you're without a doubt a KB legend, and your knowledge of riding on two wheels is to mine as a planetary body is to a gnat, but I think you're somehow confused here.

No - I am completely lucid. It just is not that complicated.

You are either pushing or you are pulling the bike. It's that black and white.

I suggest you attend the RRRS course and have Finn explain it to you. I've done several similar.

[jrandom]

So now all the noobs who see this thread and read Big Dave's posts will think that when people tell them to countersteer to get around corners, that means "lean your body the opposite way to how the bike's leaning".

Nice one, Dave.

:niceone:

[Big Dave]

So now all the noobs who see this thread and read Big Dave's posts will think that when people tell them to countersteer to get around corners, that means "lean your body the opposite way to how the bike's leaning".

Nice one, Dave.

:niceone:


I did not say that at all.

[jrandom]

he was in the righthand lane.....watched him try to lean through the corner but he was leaning OUT of the corner, not into it....sort of pushing the bike down towards the road but leaning the other way...


It's called countersteering.

The RRRS course recommends it for low to moderate speed and tight maneuvers.


So now all the noobs who see this thread and read Big Dave's posts will think that when people tell them to countersteer to get around corners, that means "lean your body the opposite way to how the bike's leaning".


I did not say that at all.

O RLY?

Just for the record, Dear N00b Readers: countersteering is pushing forwards on the handlebar on the side you want to turn towards. It makes the bike 'fall into' the turn, so to speak. It is highly recommended that you move your bodyweight (lead with the shoulder) toward the inside of the turn, too, to minimise the lean angle your bike will need to get around the corner.

If you are countersteering around very slow corners (carpark cone-dodging, etc), you'll probably need to use your bodyweight to stop the bike from 'falling into' the turn too quickly, so you might end up leaning your torso in the other direction.

Where your torso is or isn't, however, has nothing to do with 'countersteering'.

Gawd, I can't believe I just wrote a 'definition of countersteering' post.

I suppose I need to go away and invent a KB Wave now.

[SPman]

I suggest you attend the RRRS course and have Finn explain it to you. I've done several similar.Is Finn still running that course....have they cleaned up any more instructors on the countersteering avoidance test lately.........

[Big Dave]

O RLY?<tenchars>


OK - if you choose to put it in the context of saying that slofoxes example is a correct example then it needs clarifiction.

I mean - and always meant - the photo example posted as the point of reference.

Other than that I have nothing to amend.

Except I disagree with parts of random's definition.

[Big Dave]

Is Finn still running that course....have they cleaned up any more instructors on the countersteering avoidance test lately.........

Been a while since I've been out there. I reckon so - bloke deserves a monument.

[dipshit]

I suggest you attend the RRRS course and have Finn explain it to you. I've done several similar.


Then this Finn is rather confused on the matter.

[Headbanger]

Short version.

Biker panics after entering corner to hot. Lives to tell his tale

Long version

Multiple pages where people who never saw it happen argue about it, Which of course turns into an argument on how to ride a damn bike.












Excellent.:Punk:

[McJim]

Then this Finn is rather confused on the matter.
Nah, Finn knows his shit well enough. I went to the RRRS course when I started riding and it has done me the world of good. Most people I ride with express surprise when I tell them how long I've been riding. Simply due to the application of what I learned on RRRS and got bcked up by M1CRO in the weeks afterwards.

[98tls]

Then this Finn is rather confused on the matter. I cant believe ive just read so many posts on how to go round a farkin corner on a motorcycle:sleep:In my lifetime theres been many who have shunned the "correct" way to go round corners and made many a successful career in doing so,at the start of said careers many said "wtf".Will be most interested to see the result and winning formula according to KB,maybe afterwards we could move on to "correct footpeg positioning" according to the KB wise.

[Headbanger]

I just go around corners at whatever speed suits......Perhaps I just need someone to tell me how I'm doing it all wrong.

[jrandom]

Except I disagree with parts of random's definition.

Which parts?

That is, if you can take enough time out of your busy schedule to type a response in detail, of course. I wouldn't want to be a burden, etc.

:msn-wink:

[Irontusk]

Headbanger got it in one :headbang:

Call me a noob (go on) but to me it just sounds like the guy went too fast into the turn and had a bit of panic, not commiting to the corner.

Call me a noob again (please) but countersteering still doesn't make sense to me :bleh: I've seen it in a few videos, but I don't think I'd be able to bring myself to try 'turn in the wrong direction' as I head into a corner..

[SeppoDave]

Tusk

You are doing it anyway, you just might not realise it. Next time you approach a corner, try to take note of your handlebar inputs. You'll be surprised.

[Big Dave]

Which parts?

That is, if you can take enough time out of your busy schedule to type a response in detail, of course. I wouldn't want to be a burden, etc.

:msn-wink:


No burden old bean - but I could only reiterate what I have already posted and hope it is taken in the intended context.

I'll put in a 'me' context so nobody else says I'm confused.

I either 'push' the bike through the maneuver in a countersteering exercise - or 'pull' it round after me in a conventional off board job.

That is the nub and it is achieved by a concert of actions in either case.

I can however countersteer a motorcycle without touching the handlebars *. That is my point of disagreement.

* - Noobs do not try this. Closed road - professional rider :-)

[jrandom]

I can however countersteer a motorcycle without touching the handlebars. That is my point of disagreement.

Do the bars turn toward the outside of the corner when you steer with weight transfer alone?

I've never really paid much attention.

Gawd, this is now a full-blown Countersteering Thread, innit? I shall depart it now with what little of my sanity remains.

[Big Dave]

Do the bars turn toward the outside of the corner when you steer with weight transfer alone?

I've never really paid much attention.

Gawd, this is now a full-blown Countersteering Thread, innit? I shall depart it now with what little of my sanity remains.

Yes - it seems it's the like aholes and opinions thing.

I would have said they steer where you push them via buttock and foot.

[dipshit]

:In my lifetime theres been many who have shunned the "correct" way to go round corners and made many a successful career in doing so,

No one is saying it isn't a useful technique sometimes, like slow speed U-turns and manoeuvres, or very tight twisty roads and such.

This however isn't what is commonly referred to as 'countersteering'. Confusing the term may lead to some novice pushing their bike down into the corner without leaning over with it and sitting bolt upright instead, when trying out this 'countersteering' they hear everybody talking about on a high-speed corner.

[Pussy]

This is all good banter, but doesn't change the fact that the "biker" that Slofox saw is a tit

[Big Dave]

This is all good banter, but doesn't change the fact that the "biker" that Slofox saw is a tit

He can be used as a bad example.

[Pussy]

He can be used as a bad example.
Fair enough comment, Dave!

[Big Dave]

Fair enough comment, Dave!

I have 20/20 hindsight. Marvelous.

[Cr1MiNaL]

Crusiers suck hahhahahahhaaa a a

[98tls]

No one is saying it isn't a useful technique sometimes, like slow speed U-turns and manoeuvres, or very tight twisty roads and such.

This however isn't what is commonly referred to as 'countersteering'. Confusing the term may lead to some novice pushing their bike down into the corner without leaning over with it and sitting bolt upright instead, when trying out this 'countersteering' they hear everybody talking about on a high-speed corner. Uh-huh,imagine that someone making a mistake:baby:The problem here is a "novice" may well end up spending there life reading this pc bullshit and never go ride there bike,typical really lets take one of the last bastions of independence throw in a whole lot of expert opinions based on nothing but there own personal experiances and call it fact.

[Headbanger]

Confusing the term may lead to some novice pushing their bike down into the corner without leaning over with it and sitting bolt upright instead, when trying out this 'countersteering' they hear everybody talking about on a high-speed corner.

Thats my signature move.

[98tls]

Thats my signature move. Honesty is a wonderful thing,Fear not grasshopper,thankfully i remember posts from the wise and have saved many a magazine article,simply move your left leg 0.5 cm on the left peg eat 3 hard boiled eggs before even looking at your motorcycle and the most important rule of all,have the correct bulb in your tailight,do these simple things and a motorcycle legend you will be.

[Big Dave]

Thats my signature move.

May mate trip had an ultra and the pools of sparks that unit used to leave for the t'bird to ride through. bewdifulllll

[Big Dave]

Honesty is a wonderful thing,Fear not grasshopper,thankfully i remember posts from the wise and have saved many a magazine article,simply move your left leg 0.5 cm on the left peg eat 3 hard boiled eggs before even looking at your motorcycle and the most important rule of all,have the correct bulb in your tailight,do these simple things and a motorcycle legend you will be.

You forgot ego.

[98tls]

You forgot ego. :bash:One day into being another year older and already something else ive forgotten.

[Cr1MiNaL]

I once followed Boomer around a corner, we were going reasonably quickly then he leans over and sticks his leg perpendicular to the bike (left leg out mid apex in the right hand corner), I almost fell off my bike, not from the speed, I was laughing my arse off! Plus the boy really thinks he can wheelie hahahaaaa ahah aaa

[icekiwi]

I suppose I need to go away and invent a KB Wave now.


Fuck a KB Wave...:headbang:
I've Been away a couple of months have i missed something???

[Big Dave]

Fuck a KB Wave...:headbang:
I've Been away a couple of months have i missed something???

It was decided to stand up, get the tackle out and helicopter.

[dipshit]

watched him try to lean through the corner but he was leaning OUT of the corner, not into it....sort of pushing the bike down towards the road but leaning the other way......well he totally lost it, couldn't get round, ended up hitting the anchors, crossing, without control, into the left hand lane

Apparently he wasn't out of control at all. This is the way "real men" on Harleys ride all the time. :rofl:

[NighthawkNZ]

Low speed corning (anything below 45-50kph) you corner the way your brain naturally thinks it should by turning the bars the way you wish to go... If you counter steer at this speed you will probably drop your bike if you don't counter lean and shift your weight, and can be a bit difficult...

Anything above 50kph when you think you are just leaning the bike into the corner your bike is naturally counter steering its the laws of physics at work and is simply the way it works... it may not look or feel like it, you may not notice it but its already happening... All you are doing is enhancing what is already happening...

If you wish to go left push forward on your left bar the bike drops further into the corner... if you wish to go right push forward on your right bar... go with the flow of the bike...

Get it wrong during a corner you have taken to hot try to steer normally round a corner, you will simply make matters worse... which I reckon has happened to the harley rider in that sequence... take a close look at the front wheel just as he start to scrape

[98tls]

Get it wrong during a corner you have taken to hot, you will simply make it worse... which I reckon has happened to the harley rider in that sequence... take a close look at the front wheel just as he start to scrape Sorry mate i think it went wrong roughly 50 years before those pics were taken.

[NighthawkNZ]

Sorry mate i think it went wrong roughly 50 years before those pics were taken.

:lol:



I'll give you that

[Big Dave]

take a close look at the front wheel just as he start to scrape

What happens with most of the tankers is the frame digs in just in front of the swing arm and it lifts/levers the back wheel off the ground - or enough for it to step out badly.

The natural reaction is to button off - it's a frightful sound - sometimes that means all over rover for the unwary - even with two hands on the bars.

[dipshit]

Sorry mate i think it went wrong roughly 50 years before those pics were taken.

Me too. The front wheel could be washing out because the bike is scraping and unloading the tyres so much.

[reofix]

my 5 cents worth... i spend a lot of time going reasonably quick on b roads... staying up and over the bike and countersteering hugely increases your view of the way ahead ... it may not be motogp ...but id rather see where im going than be hung down on the inside just so i can pretend i'm rossi...

[98tls]

What happens with most of the tankers is the frame digs in just in front of the swing arm and it lifts/levers the back wheel off the ground - or enough for it to step out badly.

The natural reaction is to button off - it's a frightful sound - sometimes that means all over rover for the unwary - even with two hands on the bars. No doubt but methinks the beginning of the end for this guy was sighting a camera,visions of a small spot in Easyrider next to hopefully the "bad ass of the week pic" took him far from the job at hand,at least he avoided "you will go the way your looking theory" and he had the decency to tell the world to fuck off with a showing of "Johnny Reb".

[Big Dave]

No doubt but methinks the beginning of the end for this guy was sighting a camera,visions of a small spot in Easyrider next to hopefully the "bad ass of the week pic" took him far from the job at hand,at least he avoided "you will go the way your looking theory" and he had the decency to tell the world to fuck off with a showing of "Johnny Reb".

Viva le reb!

[98tls]

Viva le reb! And may i add not just any "Rebs",without doubt those "Rebs" have spent years tapping out many a Bob Seager tune such as "roll me away" surrounded by the finest amateur tattoos ever seen in the once confederate states.As i said "legend".Thank god i say,without him the NZ motorcyclist may never have seen such rebels as i came across the other day wearing a supposed WW2 German helmet telling the world he was a follower of the "Wiffen SS" when asked if that was the "Asian unit" he started up the long wheel base thing and left.

[Big Dave]

And may i add not just any "Rebs",without doubt those "Rebs" have spent years tapping out many a Bob Seager tune such as "roll me away" surrounded by the finest amateur tattoos ever seen in the once confederate states.As i said "legend".

I have two pairs. With Harley Logos embossed. Favourite boots ever. Stand close to 6'8" in 'em new. And if i was really 6-8 - I'd still wear 'em.
mwahahahahaahah

[robo555]

Headbanger got it in one :headbang:

Call me a noob (go on) but to me it just sounds like the guy went too fast into the turn and had a bit of panic, not commiting to the corner.

Call me a noob again (please) but countersteering still doesn't make sense to me :bleh: I've seen it in a few videos, but I don't think I'd be able to bring myself to try 'turn in the wrong direction' as I head into a corner..

I'm a noob too, and while riding round town and on a bit of a hill, I couldn't commit myself to countersteer either. I just did the whole look where you want to go thing.

Then I found a quiet flat piece of road with moderate corners, going at 70km/h, was going through the corners by shifting body weight (not hanging off, just shifting weight), then after a while I commited myself to push the handle bar, the first two or three corners freaked me out a little, felt like the bike steered by itself (the bike just turned by itself with out me leaning), and I was getting a bit dizzy 'cos my head was no longer align with the horizon (i.e. the body was in line with the bike), so the next few corners I pushed the handle bar, and tilt my head the other way so it remains align with the horizon, and that felt way better.

After that I was able to do the whole road steering using the handle bar.

[discotex]

Bike tips - you stay upright = countersteering. It doesn't matter if you grab the bars with your dick - or what someone wrote on wikipedia

:lol: mate it's easy to say that but remember that almost every newbie has to start somewhere and thankfully they're more likely to read Wikipedia's definition before yours.

If a newbie checks out the links I posted and puts it into practice they will be a safer rider.

If they try countersteer by counterleaning in the twisties (instead of bar inputs) they'll increase their odds of a crash (as per the example in the OP's post).



I can however countersteer a motorcycle without touching the handlebars *. That is my point of disagreement.

* - Noobs do not try this. Closed road - professional rider :-)

While that is technically correct (and the Wikipedia article covers that) the important fact is that without bar inputs to countersteer you have a limited ability to turn the bike sharply and quickly which is the end goal.

[discotex]

Gawd, I can't believe I just wrote a 'definition of countersteering' post.


Bloody good to the point one too. Have a :apint:

[Ixion]

:lol: mate it's easy to say that but remember that almost every newbie has to start somewhere and thankfully they're more likely to read Wikipedia's definition before yours.

If a newbie checks out the links I posted and puts it into practice they will be a safer rider.

If they try countersteer by counterleaning in the twisties (instead of bar inputs) they'll increase their odds of a crash (as per the example in the OP's post).



While that is technically correct (and the Wikipedia article covers that) the important fact is that without bar inputs to countersteer you have a limited ability to turn the bike sharply and quickly which is the end goal.


Only on a sprots bike. There are more bikes in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in your philosophy.

The ffwwabbitt will turn faster with footpegs than bars. And counterleaning is a most useful skill that may save your skin one day (it hs mine before now) .

[Big Dave]

While that is technically correct

It's also common sense, there-is-no-point-micromanaging-it because everyone has a different riding style correct.

What would be even more technically correct is for noobs and those that don't get it to do the RRRS course. :-)

[discotex]

The ffwwabbitt will turn faster with footpegs than bars. And counterleaning is a most useful skill that may save your skin one day (it hs mine before now) .

Absolutely!

I counterlean my sprotsbike all the time. Especially performing tight carpark manoeuvrings.

You can't watch a MX race or motards without seeing them counterlean all over the show.

Would you say counterleaning is distinct from countersteering and both have their place depending on speed and style of bike?


It's also common sense, there-is-no-point-micromanaging-it because everyone has a different riding style correct.

What would be even more technically correct is for noobs and those that don't get it to do the RRRS course.

I agree. If someone can't do slow speed turns at full lock and they can't flick a bike around in the twisties (no matter the style of bike) then regardless they're doing it all wrong and the RRRS course will sort that out regardless of how you and I use the words to describe the different techniques.

[slofox]

Hmmmmmm "counterlean" huh?....Isn't that what you do at the bar when you're half cut....?

[awayatc]

Don't worry....I will countersteer you away from it mate....

[AlBundy]

No burden old bean - but I could only reiterate what I have already posted and hope it is taken in the intended context.

I'll put in a 'me' context so nobody else says I'm confused.

I either 'push' the bike through the maneuver in a countersteering exercise - or 'pull' it round after me in a conventional off board job.

That is the nub and it is achieved by a concert of actions in either case.

I can however countersteer a motorcycle without touching the handlebars *. That is my point of disagreement.

* - Noobs do not try this. Closed road - professional rider :-)

Countersteering and push and pull, is related to bar use, either using the inside bar or outside bar.
If I were to push the inside bar, it would be similar to pulling on the outside bar and vice versa.

Keith Code has a bike set up where they have a second set of bars on it, that doesn't steer... Without actively weighting the bars, they need a huge area to be able to get a knee down. The theory being, you need the bars to be able to regulate the radius of the turning circle.

The steering the bike does when shifting weight, is just to maintain it's own balance and equilibrium... There is zero way a bike is going to go around a corner as fast without bar pressure applied... Whether it be pushing/pulling the inside bar, or pulling/pushing the outside...

[Big Dave]

Countersteering and push and pull, is related to bar use, either using the inside bar or outside bar.


Amongst other things - sometimes.

I can also do either without touching 'any' handlebars.

[notme]

One of the smartest things I have been taught to do when I am learning any new skill or subject matter (bikes, work, music, whatever) is spend some time finding out what/who/where the reputable sources are and getting hold of the correct information.

n00bs who dig this thread up, take note:

Some of the info in this thread is correct and some is not. Some of the correct information is explained very well and some of the incorrect information is explained very convincingly, and the other combinations as well.

How many posts a person has, their rep, or how well they are able to explain what they think is correct means exactly NOTHING.

The only way to know which information is correct is to get it from reliable sources, unfortunately KB is not one such source unless you have satisfied yourself that a member is posting fact, not opinion.

For reference, here are some sources I would recommend as factual information on all of the stuff discussed thus far (and a buttload more):

1. The RRRS course or similar professional courses
2. Trackdays/race training run by a training organization as opposed to casual KB type days
3. Reference standards like Keith Code's books.
4. Paid tuition from a professional

Remember, you are playing with your life here......would you happily trust your life or future quality of life (not to mention loved ones feelings and emotions) to the good 'ol "what some guy said on the net" ?

[Big Dave]

It's a discussion (and fun to debate with random) forum. It ain't a text book.

[Headbanger]

Just about every kid and his dog learned to counter-steer the day their Dad removed the trainer wheels off their bicycle.

Those that didn't done a lot of walking.

[MDR2]

Harking back to the first post (haven't wasted my time reading the rest.) If i'm visulizing in my head what you have described (bike lent over, rider trynig to sit up the oposite way) It reminds me of how Schwantz used to corner.

[Irontusk]

Just about every kid and his dog learned to counter-steer the day their Dad removed the trainer wheels off their bicycle.

Those that didn't done a lot of walking.

I don't think anyone realises what they were doing until they try it though.
I was somewhat disturbed when I realised that if I don't lean, and I turn the bars, I go in the other direction.. sure is fun though, glad I read this thread :) Had been meaning to find out what counter-steering was, cause I had seen it mentioned all over the place..

[trumpy]

...Keith Code has a bike set up where they have a second set of bars on it, that doesn't steer... Without actively weighting the bars, they need a huge area to be able to get a knee down. The theory being, you need the bars to be able to regulate the radius of the turning circle....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nRUeEkS644

[NighthawkNZ]

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[MarkH]

Keith Code has a bike set up where they have a second set of bars on it, that doesn't steer... Without actively weighting the bars, they need a huge area to be able to get a knee down. The theory being, you need the bars to be able to regulate the radius of the turning circle.

Here's the link:
http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

[AlBundy]

Here's the link:
http://www.superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php


Thanks.

That should just about settle the discussion...

[Big Dave]

Thanks.

That should just about settle the discussion...

>>The fact is that countersteering is still being argued in the halls of learning with slide rules, Physics formulas and calculators. Many theories exist but no conclusive statement that I know of as to why has yet been reached. Argue on boys.<<

Theory.


>>There is zero way a bike is going to go around a corner as fast without bar pressure applied... Whether it be pushing/pulling the inside bar, or pulling/pushing the outside...<<

Agree. Can't be done efficently - or as safely obviously. Wasn't the point. Just that there are more than one way to turn (push) the handlebars. Unfortunately most of them involve the first part of crashing!

Grabbing that fixed set isn't it. I do know that I've been riding several vehicles with cruise control lately and have been experimenting quite a bit. None work well, but you can ride a long way and perform a lot of maneuvers without touching any handlebars.

However fixating on what bar is being pushed or pulled is far less important than grasping the entire concept and performing it as a reflex. That was the intention. Countersteering around a hazzard must be instinctive and there is more to it than handlebars. IMO.

More than one way to skin the cat and that there are multiple inputs that vary from machine type to type. Some you lean on the bars - A BMW megamoto eg seems like you only have to 'think' it and and put your body in position.

Ponder this - I can also be 'body steering' at moderate speed around a sweeping bend and counter-steer around a pothole or debris mid-corner at the same time.

As stated early on - there is a point of diminishing return, every machine is different, different ergonomics, and experience levels - there are no rules of thumb I've noted other than there is a velocity where contersteering becomes not viable and that varies from bike to bike.

[Ixion]

Thanks.

That should just about settle the discussion...

Indeed not. For one thing, the very name implies a limited subset of motorcycles . The 'superbike' school. There are other sorts of motorcycle beside superbikes. And techniques well suited to the race track and MotoGP machines (and their squidly emulators) may be less suited to more workaday machines .

And we debated that 'bike with fixed handlebars' before. The logic is flawed, because the bars had the effect of locking the steering . Front wheel displacement is a two way deal. Displace the front wheel, and it will initiate a cornering action. Initiate the cornering action by other means and the front wheel must displace to allow the cornering process. How could it not? The front wheel must follow a different track to the rear and as the rear is locked solid in line with the frame, it follows , inevitably, that whenever a bike corners, the front wheel must displace from the straight ahead position. By locking the front wheel with the fake bars the experiment prevented all cornering.

But noone here is arguing that a bike can corner without the front wheel moving. Merely that there are other ways to initiate (and maintain) that cornering process, besides countersteering.

[AlBundy]

At the end of the day... It's counter STEERING.

What you BD are implying, by not touching the bars, is not steering. It's using other influences to direct the bike, which the bike then compensates for to balance itself. There will be no control.

If you are so convinced, go and set yourself a cone course and zig zag with and without bar inputs at various speeds....

We are happy to be proven wrong.

[Horse]

And we debated that 'bike with fixed handlebars' before. The logic is flawed, because the bars had the effect of locking the steering .

Erm, where does it say on the "No-BS Bike" page that the steering is locked? He doesn't lock the bars, he mounts a 2nd set of bars attached to the bike's frame.

If you watch the video clip on that page it's fairly clear the front steering is unlocked.

[AlBundy]

Amongst other things - sometimes.

I can also do either without touching 'any' handlebars.


Indeed not. For one thing, the very name implies a limited subset of motorcycles . The 'superbike' school. There are other sorts of motorcycle beside superbikes. And techniques well suited to the race track and MotoGP machines (and their squidly emulators) may be less suited to more workaday machines .

And we debated that 'bike with fixed handlebars' before. The logic is flawed, because the bars had the effect of locking the steering . Front wheel displacement is a two way deal. Displace the front wheel, and it will initiate a cornering action. Initiate the cornering action by other means and the front wheel must displace to allow the cornering process. How could it not? The front wheel must follow a different track to the rear and as the rear is locked solid in line with the frame, it follows , inevitably, that whenever a bike corners, the front wheel must displace from the straight ahead position. By locking the front wheel with the fake bars the experiment prevented all cornering.

But noone here is arguing that a bike can corner without the front wheel moving. Merely that there are other ways to initiate (and maintain) that cornering process, besides countersteering.

Those bars are fixed to the fairing stays. They are not locking the steering. That's the whole pont of the demonstration. By not having the use of weighting the bars, there is virtually no steering input.

You state the front needs to be displaced for steering to occur, and that's the whole debate around counter steering. Initiating the turn by steering opposite, which then allows the bike to 'off balance' itself, which then steers into the corner.

As for the comments regarding the BMW Megamoto and trail bikes... Keep in mind they usually have wider bars... To me, that means leverage. What does leverage entail? It means I can do the same job with less effort. That would explain the 'it goes when thinking' statement. There'd be a lot less input required for steering to occur.
Then there's weight and how it's placed. For a start, trail bikes are usually lighter, which will immediately have an effect.

[The Stranger]

What you BD are implying, by not touching the bars, is not steering. It's using other influences to direct the bike,

Well what are bar inputs if not an influence to direct the bike?

Wictionary describes steering as -

steering (plural steerings)
1. Controlling direction, describing something used to steer.

I think Daves description is appropriate, stop trying to split hairs.

[Big Dave]

At the end of the day... It's counter STEERING.

What you BD are implying, by not touching the bars, is not steering. It's using other influences to direct the bike, which the bike then compensates for to balance itself. There will be no control.

If you are so convinced, go and set yourself a cone course and zig zag with and without bar inputs at various speeds....

We are happy to be proven wrong.

As stated

Can't be done efficently - or as safely obviously. Wasn't the point. Just that there are more than one way to turn (push) the handlebars. Unfortunately most of them involve the first part of crashing!

[NighthawkNZ]

Sometimes when I am coasting down Stuart street, I will let go of the bars and sit up and let gravity take over...

I find it very difficult to just lean to steer the bike, including applying pressure on the pegs etc... actually its just about non exsistant...

[AlBundy]

So what? We telling people how to do things inefficiently now?

I don't dispute, you can alter the direction of the bike by weighting or shifting etc. I do it all the time.

What I'm disputing, is the ability to ride down any given road, at a fair pace, and have the same level of control, within the realms of this debate, ie, with bar input and without...

[Big Dave]

Sometimes when I am coasting down Stuart street, I will let go of the bars and sit up and let gravity take over...

I find it very difficult to just lean to steer the bike, including applying pressure on the pegs etc... actually its just about non exsistant...

Some need big buttock action. Sad but true. I weigh 125kg.

[AlBundy]

stop trying to split hairs.


Have you read the whole debate?

If so, stop and think about what we are discussing.

[The Stranger]

Have you read the whole debate?

If so, stop and think about what we are discussing.

I have read it, but wouldn't go so far as to call your frothing at the mouth debate.

[AlBundy]

I have read it, but wouldn't go so far as to call your frothing at the mouth debate.

Who's frothing at the mouth?

I'm actually quite amused by the whole discussion...

But since you've appeared, Mr. Mentor, could you please enlighten us with your thoughts on the subject. Seeing as you are teaching and advising the up and coming bikers.

[Big Dave]

I think what helped me with the megamoto was also the way its best ever ergos allowed full body movement and great ability to shift balance.

I can't ride a sports bike fast. Can't do it. Mainly because I'm so folded up I can only really countersteer efficiently.



PS - I got no problems with demeanor - I feigned a hissy fit earlier - but it was pretend.

[AlBundy]

I think what helped me with the megamoto was also the way its best ever ergos allowed full body movement and great ability to shift balance.

I can't ride a sports bike fast. Can't do it. Mainly because I'm so folded up I can only really countersteer efficiently.



PS - I got no problems with demeanor - I feigned a hissy fit earlier - but it was pretend.

Nice plug for the BMW... They are nice machines...

[AlBundy]

I think I know what I'm doing wrong....

I'm not using smilies... Maybe I should, coz then nothing will be misconstrued as frothing at the mouth....

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

[The Stranger]

But since you've appeared, Mr. Mentor, could you please enlighten us with your thoughts on the subject.

Certainly.
If one is to debate one should clearly articulate what subject they are debating so as to avoid the current situation where both are correct but arguing about different subjects.

[The Stranger]

I think I know what I'm doing wrong....

I'm not using smilies... Maybe I should, coz then nothing will be misconstrued as frothing at the mouth....

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

Smilies are completely unnecessary.
Be a man, just say it and if no one likes it stiff shit.

[Headbanger]

Now shes worthy of full blown counter-steering thread status.:devil2:

[Big Dave]

Nice plug for the BMW... They are nice machines...

Still favourite for my Bike of the year.

A bit more year to go yet naturally, but i'm working on November copy now.

[AlBundy]

Certainly.
If one is to debate one should clearly articulate what subject they are debating so as to avoid the current situation where both are correct but arguing about different subjects.

Well, if we are discussing effective steering techniques, I'd hardly consider riding down a road and using body weight and shifting around the bike, without touching the bars, as one of them...

As stated before, riding down the road no-hands, it is quite obvious there is not even close to the same control as when there's bar pressure applied. Sure, the bike 'steers' but it's only to correct itself for balance... And sometimes it needs quite a lot of pressure for it to do so.

By leaning, counter leaning, getting off, looking where you go, they all influence ones pressure on the bars to some extent... Whether people are aware of it or not...

And 'counter' in itself implies an opposite input required to get a result. If one is not applying bar pressure, where is the counter input coming from?

And just for clarification, I believe we are talking normal road riding speeds, as opposed to balancing a trials bike or very slow manuevering...

[The Stranger]

Well, if we are discussing effective steering techniques, I'd hardly consider riding down a road and using body weight and shifting around the bike, without touching the bars, as one of them...

As stated before, riding down the road no-hands, it is quite obvious there is not even close to the same control as when there's bar pressure applied. Sure, the bike 'steers' but it's only to correct itself for balance... And sometimes it needs quite a lot of pressure for it to do so.

By leaning, counter leaning, getting off, looking where you go, they all influence ones pressure on the bars to some extent... Whether people are aware of it or not...

And 'counter' in itself implies an opposite input required to get a result. If one is not applying bar pressure, where is the counter input coming from?

And just for clarification, I believe we are talking normal road riding speeds, as opposed to balancing a trials bike or very slow manuevering...

Yep!
Still looks like froth to me.

[Big Dave]

lol - Sadly the vespa pictures are downloaded and I have to return to real work

[AlBundy]

Yep!
Still looks like froth to me.

Well, I'm going to disregard anything you say, since you haven't actually added anything to the debate, except to comment and critic....

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

[Ixion]

Sometimes when I am coasting down Stuart street, I will let go of the bars and sit up and let gravity take over...

I find it very difficult to just lean to steer the bike, including applying pressure on the pegs etc... actually its just about non existant...

I ride a a variety of bikes. Some respond well to non-bar inputs , some less well. Ditto for bar inputs.

The ffwwabbitt , I seldom use bar input at all. It changes direction quickly and easily with peg and tank pressure . And doesn't really like countersteering with bar input. Bar input helps, both to generate the cornering process and to control it. But the quickest easiest cornering is by foot and knee.

The SV1000 on the other hand is the reverse. Weighting pegs and tank pressure doesn't do much . A bit, as an adjunct to bar input. But I have to push it through the corners with the bars.

BMW is like the ffwwabbitt. Not quite so pronounced but easy to steer without bars. So it's not weight.

Virago is also not a counter steering bike. I suspect cruisers aren't generally.

The arzhole is needs countersteering with the bars. Weight transfer helps but without bar input its not going anywhere.

Here, I'm talking about steering at maybe 50 to 120 kph. And interestingly, thinking about it, I have a suspicion it reverses at very low speeds. At walking speed the BMW needs a LOT of bar input to control a full lock turn. So does ffwwabbitt. Whereas the SV needs deliberate weight transfer for low speed manoeuvres.

Which is the point I've been trying to make all along. It varies a LOT from bike to bike.

One of the great difficulties in discussing any topic like this, is that invariably the Motogp crowd come roaring out crying "I'm a racer and we do blah". With a fairly explicit declaration that whatever doesn't conform to road racing practice is invalid.

[Horse]

Virago is also not a counter steering bike. I suspect cruisers aren't generally.

Both my current bike (at the big end of the cruiser spectrum) and my previous (Hyosung GV250, so at the lighter end) respond very positively to counter-steering at highway speeds.

Slow speed maneuvers are of course an entirely different kettle of fish.

[AlBundy]

The ffwwabbitt.....

WTF is that?

[moT]

Was heading to Auks in the cage last Saturday arvo - round about the drag track at Meremere, when a bike of a certain American make came roaring through the lanes, weaving through the traffic and then proceeded into the next right hander.....he was in the righthand lane.....watched him try to lean through the corner but he was leaning OUT of the corner, not into it....sort of pushing the bike down towards the road but leaning the other way......well he totally lost it, couldn't get round, ended up hitting the anchors, crossing, without control, into the left hand lane and generally buggering up his impression ratio..:crazy:..lucky for him the left lane was clear where he was so no grief ensued......
Anyway, he is not the first rider I have seen try to corner like that....kinda looking like a dirt tracker cept no foot down....anyone else see this happening? Makes you wonder if the licence came out of a weetbix packet........or what...:weird:

no thats the right way to corner.. i do it all the time when im racing so do the moto gp riders!!

[Big Dave]

Virago is also not a counter steering bike. I suspect cruisers aren't generally.


I have a bike with a 250 rear section at the moment - and a sportsbike front end. Whole new ball game.

[discotex]

I have a bike with a 250 rear section at the moment - and a sportsbike front end. Whole new ball game.

Should put knobblies and front wheel drive on it to change it up a bit.

[svr]

I ride a a variety of bikes. Some respond well to non-bar inputs , some less well. Ditto for bar inputs.

The ffwwabbitt , I seldom use bar input at all. It changes direction quickly and easily with peg and tank pressure . And doesn't really like countersteering with bar input. Bar input helps, both to generate the cornering process and to control it. But the quickest easiest cornering is by foot and knee.

Which is the point I've been trying to make all along. It varies a LOT from bike to bike.

One of the great difficulties in discussing any topic like this, is that invariably the Motogp crowd come roaring out crying "I'm a racer and we do blah". With a fairly explicit declaration that whatever doesn't conform to road racing practice is invalid.

My understanding is that above very low speeds its impossible to initiate a reasonably quick change of direction without countersteering.
I think the most important factors creating differences between bikes' handling are: Tire width, handlebar width, and amount of weight on front wheel (weight distribution) and front suspension quality. Rake, trail, offests etc. are always touted but are down the list somewhere.
Having done both lots of racing and lots of road riding I think you make a fair point - but it's important to understand what your motorcycle is capable of, which is what the track environment will help you learn. Most crashes or near misses that I've seen (too many) are caused by riders wrongly believing they're going too fast and `bailing'.

[dipshit]

I ride a a variety of bikes. Some respond well to non-bar inputs , some less well. Ditto for bar inputs.

All you are experiencing is that some bikes have lighter steering than others. You are still making inputs through the bars whether you are aware of it or not.

Unless you are cornering with your hands off both grips.???

[NighthawkNZ]

All you are experiencing is that some bikes have lighter steering than others. You are still making inputs through the bars whether you are aware of it or not.

I would agree with that...


Unless you are cornering with your hands off both grips.???


Yup and as I said above when I do it is very difficult and just about non existent

[AlBundy]

I'm still waiting for The Stranger to say something constructive...

He's very much like a manager. He'll be around but say nothing, then he'll say something that isn't of particular note, or constructive to the subject and just stir up the yokels, then carry on on his merry way....

What concerns me, is he's a mentor and has no opinion on the subject... Anyone else, I'd not have given a hoot about...

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

[Ixion]

All you are experiencing is that some bikes have lighter steering than others. You are still making inputs through the bars whether you are aware of it or not.

Unless you are cornering with your hands off both grips.???

yep done that.

Go find a gravel road, or some reasonably slippery clay. Now, you will find that on a suitable bike you can steer the bike even if the front wheel is sliding against the turn (and can hardly therefore be countersteering). Be aware of course that you will probably fall off, because of that sliding wheel, but the point is that you CAN steer a bike without bar input (the steering will reflect through the bars).

Do not do it with an SV1000. I own one and it cannot be steered without bar input. I own other bikes where that statement is not true.

The biking world does not end with sprots bikes , though its devilish hard to convince sprotsbikers of that.

[AlBundy]

I tell you what... I'll do some playing on my trip back home tomorrow on the pseudo motard and let you know my findings....

[Ixion]

Actually, I have thought of a cogent argument that should be right up sprotsbikers' alleys.

It is possible to steer a bike with the front wheel off the ground.

Old school two stroke riders will certainly have experienced coming out of a corner and having the front wheel lift as the bike hits power band. It is still possible to complete the corner even though the front wheel is not touching the ground and thus cannot possibly be doing any steering.

The same thing can be experienced in a wheel stand.

[AlBundy]

Actually, I have thought of a cogent argument that should be right up sprotsbikers' alleys.

It is possible to steer a bike with the front wheel off the ground.

Old school two stroke riders will certainly have experienced coming out of a corner and having the front wheel lift as the bike hits power band. It is still possible to complete the corner even though the front wheel is not touching the ground and thus cannot possibly be doing any steering.

The same thing can be experienced in a wheel stand.


And why would that be reserved to two strokes?

Argue away, it doesn't take away from what BD said and the debate that started from it...

[98tls]

Actually, I have thought of a cogent argument that should be right up sprotsbikers' alleys.

It is possible to steer a bike with the front wheel off the ground.

Old school two stroke riders will certainly have experienced coming out of a corner and having the front wheel lift as the bike hits power band. It is still possible to complete the corner even though the front wheel is not touching the ground and thus cannot possibly be doing any steering.

The same thing can be experienced in a wheel stand. Have ridden the Waitaki bridge start to finish on one wheel (yea i know its blah blah ) at speed and a form of steering was required to stay in the correct lane,obviously theres only one way to do it,as you accelerate out of a corner methinks on a track theoretically yes as its wide enough depending on at what stage you nail it,something like that anyway.

[dipshit]

Go find a gravel road, or some reasonably slippery clay. Now, you will find that on a suitable bike you can steer the bike even if the front wheel is sliding against the turn (and can hardly therefore be countersteering). Be aware of course that you will probably fall off, because of that sliding wheel, but the point is that you CAN steer a bike without bar input (the steering will reflect through the bars).

Rear wheel steering in a slide is a different kittle of fish. Weighting the inside peg provokes more slide/turn. Weighting the outside peg increases grip and sends you more in a straight line.

Unless you are commonly sliding your bikes or riding with both hands off the handlebars... you are still making inputs through the bars whether you are aware of it or not.



The biking world does not end with sprots bikes , though its devilish hard to convince sprotsbikers of that.

All bikes still share the basic physics though. Even a push bike will behave in the same way even if you don't notice what is actually happening because they are so light and only need extremely small inputs.

[Ixion]

And why would that be reserved to two strokes?

Argue away, it doesn't take away from what BD said and the debate that started from it...

It's not. Just that it was common , unintentionally, on two smokers. Less so on four strokes.

[dipshit]

Old school two stroke riders will certainly have experienced coming out of a corner and having the front wheel lift as the bike hits power band.

GP riders make a lot of inputs through the pegs when accelerating out of corners.

The 500's were also spinning the rear...

[The Stranger]

I think I know what I'm doing wrong....

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...


Well, I'm going to disregard anything you say,

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....


I'm still waiting for The Stranger to say something constructive...

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

Hang on, you were going to disregard anything I said anyway.

But here's a freebe none the less.
Be creative, try something new from time to time.

[piston broke]

imho,
i think we all counter steer.
it's just on some bikes it's more noticable than others.
my old '74 cb400f it was unnoticable,'beautiful machine'.
cb 900f2 i found i really had to push the opposite lock,counter steer, to get her round a bend.

[piston broke]

the easiest,safest way to feel what countersteering is,
is to hold a pushbike wheel by the axle spin it forward and lean it left or right and feel which way the cetrifical force moves you

[AlBundy]

Hang on, you were going to disregard anything I said anyway.

But here's a freebe none the less.
Be creative, try something new from time to time.


I have a short attention span... Anything stated earlier is easily forgotten....

Just as well it was a freebie, coz' I'd heard that before....

I at least hope you come up with some useful shit when you are mentoring, because there will be people relying on what you say...

[Ixion]

Well, in the immortal tradition of Sir Francis Bacon I put it to the test

I managed to successfully ride, tonight, ffwwabbitt down Puhinui Rd , along Plunket Ave, round the roundabout and along Cavendish Drv as far as the motorway, no hands (and therefore, no bar inputs).

Not a highly twisty route, but a roundabout and several bends and three 90 degree corners.

I must admit it was a wobbly process , but I was able to maintain a speed of between 40 and 70kph without undue problems. I had to stop at two of the corners (intersections),and I used the bars whilst starting off. And I had wedged a bit of tape between the twistgrip grip and the block as a poor mans frcition lock ,but it wasn't totally successful, so I had to make a few grabs for the throttle .

But, all in all, I can say that a journey of several kilometres was achieved without any bar input for steering (other than starting off from rest).

Any further validation shall be left to the Mormon Few, I'm sure their repetoire must include hands free riding.

I most certainly would NOT be prepared ot do that on the SV.

(And, I can also say that a motorbike packed in snow will not go rotten) .

[dipshit]

I managed to successfully ride, tonight, ffwwabbitt down Puhinui Rd , along Plunket Ave, round the roundabout and along Cavendish Drv as far as the motorway, no hands (and therefore, no bar inputs).

himmmm... interesting....

That just leaves one question. What the fuck's a ffwwabbitt..??

[jrandom]

Bikes steer from weight and balance.

Countersteering doesn't cause the bike to turn, it causes the bike to tip over.

Tipping a bike over causes the balance to shift, which is what makes it go around a corner.

If your hands are off the bars, you can wiggle your arse and move your torso and weight the pegs to achieve the same effect.

All factors vary based on the speed the bike's travelling at.

I personally have never run the numbers to determine exactly how much stability a bike gets from its spinning wheels, but I've always suspected that the gyroscopic component in any of the above is miniscule.

Fuck, why do we even have these stupid fucking threads?

Just go and ride your goddamn bikes, people. Typing about it on the internet won't make you any less likely to cock up.

[discotex]

Fuck, why do we even have these stupid fucking threads?


So we have something other than wave and bin threads? :shifty:

[jrandom]

So we have something other than wave and bin threads? :shifty:

You forget the "I saw a girl riding a motorcycle, and am now sexually aroused" threads.

[Hitcher]

You forget the "I saw a girl riding a motorcycle, and am now sexually aroused" threads.

Really? Where?

[discotex]

You forget the "I saw a girl riding a motorcycle, and am now sexually aroused" threads.

Oh yeah and the "who makes the ugliest bike" threads as well.


Really? Where?

Apparently there was a hottie carrying a helmet at uni recently.....

[Ixion]

himmmm... interesting....

That just leaves one question. What the fuck's a ffwwabbitt..??

Ah., The name is obvious, since it is a thumper, and I am very fond of Welch rarebit. And, since it is not painted pink , it obviously needed to be named Fflloyydd, or some derivation thereof. The spelling follows the rules of Welch orthography of course, so it is pronounced 'jason'

It is an Xt600E yamaha.

[jrandom]

Really? Where?

Usually in 'General Bike Ravings', eh.


Oh yeah and the "who makes the ugliest bike" threads as well.

I believe it was established some while back that the ancient and honourable marque of Spagthorpe is without peer in this respect.

[jrandom]

... it is pronounced 'jason'

I've always read it as 'throatwobbler mangrove'.

[Ixion]

I believe it was established some while back that the ancient and honourable marque of Spagthorpe is without peer in this respect.

What utter nonsense. Typical, just what one would expect from an (ex?) Spagthorpe owner. What DID happen to that Spagthorpe, eh/aye/ay/a'

ANY rider knows that the illustrious Zorch, that most noble and incomparable example of glorious Elbonian technological supremacy, is definatively the world's ugliest bike.

[jrandom]

What utter nonsense. Typical, just what one would expect from an (ex?) Spagthorpe owner. What DID happen to that Spagthorpe, eh/aye/ay/a'

Some of us prefer not to list every bike we own in our KB profile, lest the lustful eyes of the light-fingered and/or the stern gaze of the law take undue note thereof.

:nono:


Zorch, that most noble and incomparable example of glorious Elbonian technological supremacy...

Pfft. An entirely overrated machine; I am convinced that if the Spagthorpe Mudfloggler had not been most unjustly hampered by incompetent marketing and the unfortunate timing of the Great Shaving Cream Crisis in those critical Regency years, the ignoble brand of Zorch would have by now faded entirely from the popular consciousness.

[The Stranger]

Fuck, why do we even have these stupid fucking threads?

The same reason we have any thread to talk shit and wind people up of course.

[Hitcher]

I've always read it as 'throatwobbler mangrove'.

Peasants. It is pronounced "Luxury Yacht".

[MarkH]

After reading this thread and reading up information on the internet about motorcycle riders being killed when they panic and fail to countersteer I wonder about how to be safer when riding. If I could put my thoughts out there and get some feedback from you guys that would be great.

Here goes:
When a rider panics at the appearance of an object in his/her path (like a car that pulled out) they often attempt to steer around it (e.g. turning the bars left to go left) this causes the bike to lean the other way and turn towards the object. I think that the mistake is to try to steer a bike in the first place because motorbikes/motorscooters/push bikes all steer themselves if you relax and go with what they are trying to do. The rider just needs to control the lean and let the bike steer however it likes. So if you need to suddenly veer to the left you should quickly lean the bike to the left and let it turn that way. I don't think you really need to know about countersteering because you instinctively know how to make a bike lean (ever since learning to ride a bike). I think the riders that use their bodyweight to turn (including racers) are definitely also using some bar input at the same time and I don't see how not realising they are countersteering makes any difference - the fact is that they can lean a bike quickly enough to turn as sharply as they need to and that's all that matters.

So if I ever find myself facing death and needing to turn I will need to force myself to look to an escape route and lean the bike the way it needs to go, trusting that it will turn to take that escape route I am fixating on.

This seems to fit in well with my recent experience - after almost 20 years since I last rode a motorbike I bought a scooter about 4 weeks ago. I initially found it a little tricky to smoothly and quickly turn corners, but after running up more than 2000kms I find it much easier. I just bank it over and it goes round the corner - it's not too hard when you gain a little confidence and relax a little (and don't worry about trying to steer). Now I am enjoying riding so much that I am thinking of buying another bike next year to use on the weekends while keeping my scooter for weekday commuting. Or, better yet, win lotto powerball and buy a new bike next week (the new GSX-R1000 K9 looks OK).

Does what I say make sense? Any useful comments?

[vifferman]

So if I ever find myself facing death and needing to turn I will need to force myself to look to an escape route and lean the bike the way it needs to go, trusting that it will turn to take that escape route I am fixating on.
Does what I say make sense? Any useful comments?
Yes, that's right, although sometimes a more vigorous effort may be required, like if there is something lying on the road right in your track. If you've previously practiced emergency obstacle avoidance (by for instance, swerving almost violently around some imaginary or non-harmful object on the road, while riding down a quiet street or wherever), then this helps, as you've already programmed yourself with the correct response.
Other things to practice are emergency braking (including in corners, and on wet roads). Many people don't do this, so don't learn the skills to brake hard enough, and to modulate the lever so as to avoid locking up the wheel(s). Instead, when confronted by the unexpected, they freeze up. (Been there, done that... not a pleasant experience.)

[The Stranger]

Here goes:
When a rider panics at the appearance of an object in his/her path (like a car that pulled out) they often attempt to steer around it (e.g. turning the bars left to go left) this causes the bike to lean the other way and turn towards the object. I think that the mistake is to try to steer a bike in the first place because motorbikes/motorscooters/push bikes all steer themselves if you relax and go with what they are trying to do. The rider just needs to control the lean and let the bike steer however it likes. So if you need to suddenly veer to the left you should quickly lean the bike to the left and let it turn that way. I don't think you really need to know about countersteering because you instinctively know how to make a bike lean (ever since learning to ride a bike). I think the riders that use their bodyweight to turn (including racers) are definitely also using some bar input at the same time and I don't see how not realising they are countersteering makes any difference - the fact is that they can lean a bike quickly enough to turn as sharply as they need to and that's all that matters.

So if I ever find myself facing death and needing to turn I will need to force myself to look to an escape route and lean the bike the way it needs to go, trusting that it will turn to take that escape route I am fixating on.

Does what I say make sense? Any useful comments?

I seriously think you should check out my sig, NOT the stupidity part, the RRRS part.
The quickest way to effect a turn as you describe above is to use the method Big Dave shows in post 28.

[MarkH]

I seriously think you should check out my sig, NOT the stupidity part, the RRRS part.
The quickest way to effect a turn as you describe above is to use the method Big Dave shows in post 28.

3rd Sunday of October? $50? That sounds like a damn good idea!

[The Stranger]

3rd Sunday of October? $50? That sounds like a damn good idea!

That's correct, 3rd Sunday in October & $50.00.
See you then.