G Mail

[Biff]

I've noticed that many of you have signed up for Google's free e-mail accounts, GMAIL. I was wondering whether you all knew about the negative aspects of using such an account. Such as the fact that Google will spy on and search all of your emails for trends, browsing/shopping habits and such like.

Have a search on the tinternet and you'll find loads of forums, professional privacy organisation etc raising serious concerns regarding GMAIL.

Here's a starter: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/04/03/google_mail_is_evil_privacy/


Big Brother is watching you.

[Coyote]

I'll just have to send letters saying how cool hot pants are and polka is the new hip music

[Skunk]

Big Brother is watching you.If someone wants to know, they can find out. Every ISP you use can get the same info on you by the same method. Plus they can tell where you surf too... :pinch:

[James Deuce]

I've noticed that many of you have signed up for Google's free e-mail accounts, GMAIL. I was wondering whether you all knew about the negative aspects of using such an account. Such as the fact that Google will spy on and search all of your emails for trends, browsing/shopping habits and such like.

Have a search on the tinternet and you'll find loads of forums, professional privacy organisation etc raising serious concerns regarding GMAIL.

Here's a starter: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/04/03/google_mail_is_evil_privacy/


Big Brother is watching you.
A. Don't Care.
B. Don't Care.
C. As an IT "professional" working for a Border Security oriented Government department, you realise pretty quickly how little electronic communication is private. None. Zip. Nada. It can all be trolled through, either in real time, or on demand, by everyone from your Mother-in-Law to the Pope.
D. I would rather use Gmail's spam filter on their server than have to manage it myself.
E. I need a hardware independent messaging service. Hotmail sucks. So does Yahoo mail.

Every commercial web page you go to is collecting info on you for analysis. The people who write the site wouldn't be doing there job if it didn't, and if you use cookie blockers, firewalls, etc, THAT information is being logged to see how much of whose product is being used.

That type of scaremongering on that website is naive in the extreme. Big brother may be watching, but he's been doing it for years and he now has better tools. If you don't like, stop connecting to the Internet.

[Biff]

In my last job I ran a customer facing network security division for a major defence contractor. I know all the pitfalls of using the internet. But there are some pretty basic things you can do in order to protect traffic over a public network, the most basic being secure tunnelling.

The problem with G Mail is that they actively trawl through your mail and don't just support the lawful interception mechanisms employed by every ISP and telephony company in the world.

I've used Hotmail for years for most mail (with very few hiccups and certainly no major ones), but for sensitive mails I use my private account which has a powerful (add on) encryption package imbedded. I know for a fact that should a government (of many developed country) agency really want to read these mails they could. But it would take them an awful long time to do so, and I seriously doubt whether some nations could do it for themselves without some help from another "friendly nation" anyway. Besides, my personal and business mails no longer contain any information that they would want to spend their resources de-crypting.

But we're digressing - e-mail and surfing the internet are different. E-mails are pretty much point-to-point messages. While surfing the internet you are far more prone to having personal information logged in various places. Although most honest commercial organisations no personal information about you or your general surfing habits, simply your PC's configuration.


C. As an IT "professional" working for a Border Security oriented Government department, you realise pretty quickly how little electronic communication is private. None. Zip. Nada. It can all be trolled through, either in real time, or on demand, by everyone from your Mother-in-Law to the Pope.

That's simpy incorrect Jim. You need to get your boss to put their hands in their pockets in order to locate and buy some decent ComSec kit. If you work for a government department then you could buy some kit that could provide significant protection from "friendy nations", such as the UK, as the Ozzie's do (and several other nations). Some nations, may or may not, even send short term Top Secret information via the internet, and I'm sure as hell they wouldn't do this if my mother in law could not only identify and intercept it, but also read it.

Oh - and I block cookies using an "acquired" advanced cookie blocker and can also mask my IP address if needed.

[Blakamin]

The problem with G Mail is that they actively trawl through your mail and don't just support the lawful interception mechanisms employed by every ISP and telephony company in the world.


I dont give a toss either... it's better than hotmail with size... If I want personal emails sent to me, I give my proper address...anything else can go to gmail or hotmail... (or yahoo which I use for KB)
you can even email me at blakamin @ Ieatcatsforfun dot com

[Biff]

I dont give a toss either... it's better than hotmail with size... If I want personal emails sent to me, I give my proper address...anything else can go to gmail or hotmail... (or yahoo which I use for KB)
you can even email me at blakamin @ Ieatcatsforfun dot com


Fair dinkum. I'm happy with my 250 Meg Hotmail account and limitless personnal accounts.

[Blakamin]

Fair dinkum. I'm happy with my 250 Meg Hotmail account and limitless personnal accounts.
I still get emails from hotmail telling me my space is running out, must be the 2mb limit still .... only use hotmail for shit anyway so i dont care... was the first web mail I used... before microsoft owned it!! had it for years and only use it out of habit i think
[edit] just looked online instead of using my mail program and it still says 2mb even tho the welcome page says I should have 250... what a surprise

[Biff]

must be the 2mb limit still ...

That's interesting. Free 250Meg limits were introduced in the UK in October 2003, and I registered for Hotmail while living in the UK.

[Blakamin]

That's interesting. Free 250Meg limits were introduced in the UK in October 2003, and I registered for Hotmail while living in the UK.
I've had hotmail since '97...... IIRC.... cant remember tho...might have been 96... in Oz

[Biff]

I've had hotmail since '97...... IIRC.... cant remember tho...might have been 96... in Oz

Pass! Maybe is because they know you're using G-Mail and are sulking!! :spudwhat:

[James Deuce]

Email isn't point to point. There is no way to guarantee the path of your email, encrypted or not, once it hits your ISP's POP3 or SMTP server. They could hand it on to any number of intermediary ISPs along the way.

Hotmail delete your account if you don't use it. Nazis. Gmail don't, plus there is the space thing. There are plenty of ISPs that allow active trawling of email as it passes through their email servers.

No sulking here. Hotmail and Yahoomail don't provide the kind of service I want, plus bear in mind that they are most likely doing the exact same thing to your email data, irrespective of what they say in the Terms and Conditions, thanks to "Homeland Security"

[James Deuce]

That's simpy incorrect Jim. You need to get your boss to put their hands in their pockets in order to locate and buy some decent ComSec kit. If you work for a government department then you could buy some kit that could provide significant protection from "friendy nations", such as the UK, as the Ozzie's do (and several other nations). Some nations, may or may not, even send short term Top Secret information via the internet, and I'm sure as hell they wouldn't do this if my mother in law could not only identify and intercept it, but also read it.

Oh - and I block cookies using an "acquired" advanced cookie blocker and can also mask my IP address if needed.

Would you actually be that patronising to my face? Or are you just enjoying the opportunity the appear to be taking me down. I don't appreciate being called a liar publicly or being spoken down to.

You can block your IP address. That's nice.

[Biff]

Email isn't point to point. There is no way to guarantee the path of your email, encrypted or not, once it hits your ISP's POP3 or SMTP server. They could hand it on to any number of intermediary ISPs along the way.

True, you certainly can't specify the messages path. Which is what I was alluding to by saying, "pretty much point to point", in that the mail header contains a specific address and originates from a specific origin (at least with html). What I mean is that it's a real live person to person communication as opposed to person to automated web site server. Disounting automated spam of course.

Sure they "could" pass it on. But they don't. Not unless you pose a threat to national security or are suspected of illegal activites. What I'm saying is that GMail actively scans every mail, not just a selected few because they may contain information that could prove useful to governmental organisations.

I don't follow your statement that they could pass your mail or even browser habits onto any number of intermediary ISP's along the way. Do you mean telco's? ISP's don't own backhaul networks (unless the Telco also offers their own ISP package), they lease network capacity from telephone and cable companies.

[Biff]

Would you actually be that patronising to my face? Or are you just enjoying the opportunity the appear to be taking me down. I don't appreciate being called a liar publicly or being spoken down to.

You can block your IP address. That's nice.

wowww, calm down bro - I apologise if you feel that I was being patronising. I certainly didn't mean to be and sorry you took it that way. But would I say what I said to your face ? Sure I would. In a heart beat.

I most certainly did not call you a liar Jim, nor do I think you are, nor did I mean to infer you are. I'm simply telling you what I know, based on over 10 years working in the field of network security.

Relax dude.

[James Deuce]

wowww, calm down bro - I apologise if you feel that I was being patronising. I certainly didn't mean to be and sorry you took it that way. But would I say what I said to your face ? Sure I would. In a heart beat.

I most certainly did not call you a liar Jim, nor do I think you are, nor did I mean to infer you are. I'm simply telling you what I know, based on over 10 years working in the field of network security.

Relax dude.


Absolutely not. You've assumed that I'm a know nothing idiot, and you've effectively communicated that in what you typed. If you've used electronic media to communicate you would understand that it doesn't convey tone.

Telling me to "relax dude" is as patronising as the original content I'm pissed about.

You know nothing about me, you don't know what governance issues affect telecommunications in NZ since various post-Sept 11 laws have come into effect, and you don't know what I do for a job. I was attempting to give a high-level appreciation that I do know a bit about network security, current monitoring habits of "friendly" governments, and the unscrupulous behaviour that many "third" world based telcos engage in to make an extra buck. My "career" if you can call it that, has largely been around network design, implementation, project management, and server support, for Telcos, Government departments, and Govt quangos.

[Biff]

Absolutely not. You've assumed that I'm a know nothing idiot, and you've effectively communicated that in what you typed.

No I didn't assume that at all. You're an end user that knows his job, facing operational difficulties on a daily basis. My job was (is) identifying what those difficulties were (are) and delivering solutions in order to make your life easier. You don't know what I have in my bag, I don't know what's on your shopping list.


If you've used electronic media to communicate you would understand that it doesn't convey tone.

I obviously have and I appreciate that my post did not carry my tone. Likewise you’ve jumped down my throat when all I was attempting to do is tell you what’s out there should you be interested in shopping.


Telling me to "relax dude" is as patronising as the original content I'm pissed about.

Sorry - I was trying to lighten things up a bit.


You know nothing about me, you don't know what governance issues affect telecommunications in NZ since various post-Sept 11 laws have come into effect, and you don't know what I do for a job. I was attempting to give a high-level appreciation that I do know a bit about network security, current monitoring habits of "friendly" governments, and the unscrupulous behaviour that many "third" world based telcos engage in to make an extra buck. My "career" if you can call it that, has largely been around network design, implementation, project management, and server support, for Telcos, Government departments, and Govt quangos.

I don't know you, but I know my job. My career has been forged on staying ahead of the game, developing solutions and providing consultancy to governmental organisation in an attempt to counter perceived threats to national security. I specialise in network security & defence and national security communications from a technical & strategic perspective. Hell that's why your government has welcomed me into this country. I know plenty about post 9/11 from a UK and US national security perspective. More than I would or could ever tell you. But what the hell has this rant here got anything whatsoever to do with GMail???!!!!

I've apologised here and I've also sent you a PM apologising. The bottom line is that we both know our stuff and unfortunately you've misconstrued my posts as an attempt to undermine you.

That’s me done. I need a break because I’m rattled here. Shame we couldn’t meet face to face in order to discuss this. Incidentally we may very well be able to soon by the sounds of it as I'm in Wellington shortly where I'll be providing some national security related consultancy work to a certain govt organisation. Maybe then we’d be able to have an informed discussion without one or the other of us getting all worked up because of a simple misunderstanding, and before you get all aggro again, that is not a threat. I happen to like informed debate.

[Daisy Duke]

Jim, for what it's worth I know Biff well. He's a close family friend. He's a sweet guy an I honestly don't believe he meant any offence, it's not in his nature.

Biff, don't scream at me for standing up for you, but Jim has obviously taken you sharing your knowledge as an attempt to make him look stupid. I know you're not like that. Next time stop showing off and keep your mouth shut!!

[Biff]

Shit DD. Now it look's like I need girlie help!!

[Daisy Duke]

I don't think you need any help Biff. But you do need to learn some peoples ego's are easily dented!

[Coyote]

Shit DD. Now it look's like I need girlie help!!
Oooooo, you had to have a girrrlll help you :bleh:

[Biff]

Oooooo, you had to have a girrrlll help you :bleh:

Now look what you've done Daisy. Now my reputation as an erm, mmmm, whatever, is in ruins. Thanks (that's sarcasm by the way). :doh:

[SPORK]

I use gmail simply because it has the best interface/storage/contact management out of all the free web mail services. I doubt it indulges in any more snooping than seemingly benign (sp?) services.

Thanks for your concern, but I'm sure if I want to send details for my invasion of America, I would use a safer option.

[Monsterbishi]

I gave up thinking about how secure the internet is back when I worked with a couple of ex GCSB guys at a computer firm in Blenheim, even back then when the internet was fledgling to say the least, all traffic could be monitored, and there wasn't a single encryption routine that they couldn't get past in a short amount of time...

Although since I lived out at base Woodbourne I also got to watch each morning as 8 white merc vans with tinted windows all headed out to the spybase at the same time :>

[James Deuce]

I gave up thinking about how secure the internet is back when I worked with a couple of ex GCSB guys at a computer firm in Blenheim, even back then when the internet was fledgling to say the least, all traffic could be monitored, and there wasn't a single encryption routine that they couldn't get past in a short amount of time...

Although since I lived out at base Woodbourne I also got to watch each morning as 8 white merc vans with tinted windows all headed out to the spybase at the same time :>

Yes, and that's my point. If it's been thought about by someone it's already being done. If it's being countered, it's too late, because they've moved on to something new.

I just got in from a nice long ride, and I responded to Biff's PM before I read this.

I'm a bit stung that you would PM me privately and rather than wait for the response, pop in and have another dig. That's not cricket old chap.

[wkid_one]

Who really cares about people monitoring your internet surfing - christ - with cellphones, credit cards, eftpos etc - big bother can find anything out about you they want. What difference will it make if they know what porn sites I go to!

[James Deuce]

Who really cares about people monitoring your internet surfing - christ - with cellphones, credit cards, eftpos etc - big bother can find anything out about you they want. What difference will it make if they know what porn sites I go to!

And that was my original point. If you have to be an encryption professional to avoid it, then that still leaves 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999998 Of the world's internet using population "exposed".

[mikey]

SCRAP SCRAP SCRAP

ARE WE GOING TO SEE A SCRAP BETWEEN THE IT GEEKS??????

[Biff]

And that was my original point. If you have to be an encryption professional to avoid it, then that still leaves 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999998 Of the world's internet using population "exposed".


I think that despite all the hot air here we're all in relative agreement. The kind of encryption mechanisms capable of protecting governmental class traffic is simply not available to "mere mortals" like us.

Anyone can listen at anytime is a good rule of thumb for all electronic communications.

Thanks for the PM Jim. No harm done.

[mikey]

hey JIMBO the 2ND how about a few shiny we RED rep points throwen my way... i'm a rootn for ya!

[wkid_one]

Grab a decent scanner and see what you can listen to, bloody interesting

[Biff]

Grab a decent scanner and see what you can listen to, bloody interesting

An interesting story for you - Last year sequences of numbers appeared in chalk outside several London buildings. People were baffled as to what they were, until one guy observed that they looked like IP addresses. This was then checked out and it transpired that a group of guys were driving around London scanning for wireless LAN networks. They then hacked into these LAN's in order to gain access to the host networks for free internet access as well as hack into corporate intranet's.

[Mooch]

An interesting story for you - Last year sequences of numbers appeared in chalk outside several London buildings. People were baffled as to what they were, until one guy observed that they looked like IP addresses. This was then checked out and it transpired that a group of guys were driving around London scanning for wireless LAN networks. They then hacked into these LAN's in order to gain access to the host networks for free internet access as well as hack into corporate intranet's.


Same can be done in any CBD in NZ , All this via wireless card connected to pringles tubes for an antenna , Gives you access from 10 km's away , if they are running a range extender , make it 50km , Shit , half the people with wireless networks at home don't even turn on Wep encryption. Bit like going out and leaving the front door open.

[sAsLEX]

yeah been war driving in little old new plymouth, I mean saw someone do it, and even down there we found a few access points with no encryption. I was using a dick smith antenna that i had and it worked fine.

Even if its encrypted all you need to do is watch a bit of traffic go across and software can break the encryption. Certain candy lovers would know lots more about this than me though.....

[**R1**]

This all sucks......i have to pay for porn then people steel it from me.......that just sucks....bastard IT geeks.....go get your own porn :moon:

[Biff]

This all sucks......i have to pay for porn then people steel it from me.......that just sucks....bastard IT geeks.....go get your own porn :moon:

I prefer to make my own......

[Coyote]

I prefer to make my own......
A cold chill went through my spine when I read that

[Blakamin]

yeah been war driving in little old new plymouth, I mean saw someone do it, and even down there we found a few access points with no encryption. I was using a dick smith antenna that i had and it worked fine.



done it here a few times... and its not hard to get a little program to get in..... my wireless router has directional antennas.... no good out the front of home....

[Biff]

done it here a few times... and its not hard to get a little program to get in..... my wireless router has directional antennas.... no good out the front of home....

If anyone is concerned about someone hacking into their wireless LAN networks take a look at 802.11x certification software. 802.1 being the wireless LAN protocol employed (there are several different versions) by virtually all wireless networks.

[gav]

err, so how do you get a 250 meg Hotmail account?