Niall McKenzie explains

[idleidolidyll]

.....how to ride fast and safe on the roads rather than on the track.

Two Wheels Only Mag, issue August 08

No, not the story on how to get your mojo back, the one on riding fast on the road.

As I read it I was saying "yep, yep, yep" under my breath and I've seen examples to emphasize his thoughts.

Basically what he said is to enter a corner as wide as possible without endangering yourself with oncoming traffic or scooping up bits of glass in the gutters; that gives you the best and longest visibility around the corner.

so far so good but here's where it differs from the race track:

DON'T front brake hard into the corner, instead drop down a few gears and let out the clutch carefully to drag your speed down without compressing the front forks.

Adjust your line mid corner by careful use of the back brake and line up your exit before giving it heaps on the way out.

I've seen bikes lose it or very close to losinge it by thinking that they can forever ride like they might on a race track going in too fast and braking too hard on public roads. Those cars unseen may be coming or a nasty bit of seal lurks on your only line left because of the lack of control when your suspension is fully compressed or rebounding rapidly from your late braking.

Slow in, fast out was Niall's mantra and that's one I have to agree with.

Race lines on the road will work sometimes but in the end you are setting yourself up for a head on or a highside.

Ride smart not loose

[Katman]

Amen.

(10fc).

[Pussy]

Didn't think I'd ever agree with ANYTHING you said, Idle.... but that's some bloody brilliant advice! Good on you!

[McJim]

Niall McKenzie's a bit of a legend eh?

Niall McKenzie and Jamie Witham battling it out on the British Superbike circuit was what got me into bikes in the first place...went to the races to watch the 2 Cadbury Boost Yamahas dominate every race...then said "I want a Ducati" to which someone said "But they're in last place" I said "You can keep first place if I get to sound like that" :2thumbsup:

[bikemike]

I thought the piece was a bit weak actually. He was not very lucid on the vanishing point, and by his own admission hadn't even heard the term until recently. I'd say again, the vanishing point is everywhere, not just on the corners. Also, I'd say the closer the point is, the slower the section of road, not necessarily tighter - even for corners.

I found it incongruous that he says (my emphasis); "Other techniques I use on the road to ease me safely into and around corners is (sic) engine-breaking and use of the rear brake. If I find I'm approaching a bend with too much speed, I'll click back an extra gear and feed the clutch in gently. This is safer than risking losing the front with too much front brake or having the back lock up using the rear brake."

So he's approaching his corner so fast that he's on the envelope of the bike's performance, he's afraid the front or the rear will lock up. He's likely taken his eye off the vanishing point and, is clearly bowling too fast. The situation he's talking about is getting his bike back under control, not 'easing safely into a corner'. The techniques he offers seem suboptimal for that scenario.

His boxed bullet points are great, but the narrative application is misleading.

[James Deuce]

"Vanishing point" is misunderstood and poorly used by those who loudly proclaim its benefits - IMO. It can (and does) draw people into using the entire road and setting up lines that work well on a race track but expose you, particularly on right hand corners, to dangling your body over the centre line. Worst of all it can diminish your capacity to observe your surroundings because too much of your budget is spent determining whether the the road is opening up or closing in.

Niall is a superb rider. I'm not. If slow in, "fast" out sans VP is good enough for him then it's definitely good enough for me.

[terbang]

Yup, cant complain about that. Too often I see a new rider post here asking for advice on how to ride well on the road and many reply with the one liner ¨go to the track¨. That sort of advice is mainly only good for learning to race or getting to know yourself and your bike better, especially your and its handling limitations. However I have never thought it was the only advice that should be given about being a good ¨road rider¨ and only forms part of your road survival toolbox.

[Pwalo]

Good advice. Keep things as simple as you can on the road.

Vanishing points are all well and good on a track where you have clear visibility, but are only an indicator on the road. There are simply too many distractions to rely on VP as your only guide.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

I found it incongruous that he says (my emphasis); "Other techniques I use on the road to ease me safely into and around corners is (sic) engine-breaking and use of the rear brake. If I find I'm approaching a bend with too much speed, I'll click back an extra gear and feed the clutch in gently. This is safer than risking losing the front with too much front brake or having the back lock up using the rear brake."

So he's approaching his corner so fast that he's on the envelope of the bike's performance, he's afraid the front or the rear will lock up. He's likely taken his eye off the vanishing point and, is clearly bowling too fast. The situation he's talking about is getting his bike back under control, not 'easing safely into a corner'. The techniques he offers seem suboptimal for that scenario.

I see no problems with what he is saying here. His point is that of entering the turn with a balanced bike. This leaves the largest room for error to account for other factors such as shit on the road, objects on the road etc.

I dont understand why you think he is out of control at all?

My opinion is that this is very sound advice.

[Patar]

Slow in, Fast out.

Isn't it common knowledge? I mean seriously everyone should know that.

[SPman]

Read the article - sounds more or less the way I tend to ride.

Track riding is OK for the track, but it loses a lot, on application to most road conditions and is a good inducement for getting yourself, or someone else killed. Unfortunately, there seem to be too many riders who can't, or won't, appreciate the difference.....

Being on the Perth country "circuit", out our way, there are a lot of riders over here who also don't appreciate the difference....

[discotex]

Vanishing points are all well and good on a track where you have clear visibility, but are only an indicator on the road. There are simply too many distractions to rely on VP as your only guide.

Using the vanishing point on the road is extremely valuable.

If the vanishing point is getting closer then you know the corner is tightening on you. Once it starts moving away you can get on the gas.

Slow in, fast out actually combines very well when used with the vanishing point.



Track riding is OK for the track, but it loses a lot, on application to most road conditions and is a good inducement for getting yourself, or someone else killed.

I disagree. Much of what you learn on the track applies directly to road riding. Cornering, braking, lines, slow in fast out, etc all apply in one way or another - just not as extreme.

Only problem is it only teaches you the mechanics of riding within the performance envelope of the bike in a controlled environment.

What it doesn't teach is any concept of road-craft. You have to learn that separately. Things like road position, car body language, adjusting apex points to be later, etc.



Unfortunately, there seem to be too many riders who can't, or won't, appreciate the difference.....

Yep.. Just as many people dismiss the value of road-craft as those who dismiss trackdays. The reality is when both are combined you get the safest, most skilled rider who benefits from the best of both worlds.

[James Deuce]

Yep.. Just as many people dismiss the value of road-craft as those who dismiss trackdays. The reality is when both are combined you get the safest, most skilled rider who benefits from the best of both worlds.

No you don't. You get an over confident cock who thinks he's the king of the road. Regular trackday hounds are not fun to be around on the road. There's no training avaialble in NZ to link the two separate crafts and almost no motorcyclists I know have the discipline and mental agility necessary to combine the two without tuition. Including myself. If I inject myself into trackday culture again I will hurt myself or cost myself a lot of money. You're over-generalising and encouraging people to examine an aspect of riding that has no value on the road.

[discotex]

No you don't. You get an over confident cock who thinks he's the king of the road. Regular trackday hounds are not fun to be around on the road.

Interesting take. I call bullshit though.

All the stupid shit I've seen on the roads has been one of two catagories:

a) Cruisers who think they own the road and have something to prove because you're riding a sports bike.
b) "racer wannbies" who've never been near a track and therefore use the road as their track.

So far everyone I've met that has done a trackday or two has been a responsible rider who tames it down on the road knowing they can ride as fast as they want next trackday.

[Bass]

I did a riderskills course some time back.
The most educational thing he got me to do all day was to ride as fast as I dared down this nice twisty bit of road but I wasn't allowed to look at the speedo or use the brakes.
Seems to me, it has quite a bit in common with what III is saying.

[idleidolidyll]

I did a riderskills course some time back.
The most educational thing he got me to do all day was to ride as fast as I dared down this nice twisty bit of road but I wasn't allowed to look at the speedo or use the brakes.
Seems to me, it has quite a bit in common with what III is saying.

interesting

i'd add something to that: do it in just one gear

learning to be smooth is very very clever

[discotex]

i'd add something to that: do it in just one gear


+1

I often go out and ride in 2nd gear only and hardly use the brakes. Can do anything from about 30km/h to license losing speed in that one gear so more than enough for the open road.

[NighthawkNZ]

Slow in, Fast out.

Isn't it common knowledge? I mean seriously everyone should know that.


we are still talking about corning aren't we :scratch: :shifty::mellow:

[Bass]

learning to be smooth is very very clever

Bingo!
But it also included so many other techniques such as using the VP to set up entry speeds way early. It also allowed time for picking the best (longest view) line.
I guess in summary that it forced me to get myself properly prepared for every corner.

I'm not sure about "just one gear". It was a lonely bit of road and one of the instructions was to ignore speed limits. (We won't discuss the top speeds that I was told we reached). So I was forced to use the techniques that I had been taught over a very wide speed range.
I still think that this was a definite plus.
Also, the Sprint doesn't really have a wide "useful" rev range, despite what I have read in here - at least it doesn't in comparason to the RF I had previously

[Mr Merde]

interesting

i'd add something to that: do it in just one gear

learning to be smooth is very very clever

Strange that this topic has come up.

I commute 80+km each way to work.

Lately I have been focusing my attention on riding smoother.

I have been very conciously attempting to keep away from using the brakes on my bike. In doing this I have been forced to concentrate more on the road and bre more aware of other traffic.

My riding has been a little slower but one heck of a lot smoother.

There has also been the added bonus of returning better fuel consumption than I have had for quite a while.

I havent eliminated using my brakes totally but have relied upon throttle and clutch control in a more controlled way. Not snapping of the throttle followed by having to haul on the brakes suddenly.

My route to and from home and work involves a country road full of twisty corners and the Southern Motorway in Auckland.


Chris

[Subike]

My Grand father, Father, and two uncles, all of whom rode bikes from the 1920's up to the 1980"s . The last one of them , my dad, died 3 years ago. All of them rode bikes most of their lives and only one was ever involved in a serious incident.
Theyall said the basically same thing when I was learning.

""Always ride at a speed where you can stop in 1/2 the distance you can see in front of you.""
Now that may seem a little crazy, but speed is not the killer, its not being able to stop before you hit the thing that kills you because you were outriding your braking distance.
This applys to the road , not the track, where a whole different riding style is used.

[Finn]

so far so good but here's where it differs from the race track:

DON'T front brake hard into the corner, instead drop down a few gears and let out the clutch carefully to drag your speed down without compressing the front forks.

I have no problem with this and I'm sure it works fine on a chook chasing puddle jumper but what about a litre sports bike? As far as I'm aware there isn't a lower gear than 1st to slow the bitch down.

[SPman]

Interesting take. I call bullshit though.
......

So far everyone I've met that has done a trackday or two has been a responsible rider who tames it down on the road knowing they can ride as fast as they want next trackday.
Must have ridden with different people to me and that includes a lot of KB'ers who have done track time and raced!
And not all of them are with us now........


learning to be smooth is very very clever

Try riding up your favourite bit of road without exceeding the speed limit, as fast as you can and minimum use of brakes - I did that up 22 one day and it was the most fun I've had in years.

[discotex]

Must have ridden with different people to me and that includes a lot of KB'ers who have done track time and raced!
And not all of them are with us now........


I take your point but... I've met more riders I'd consider dangerous at KB rides than at trackdays.

The point I was making (and stand by) is that nutters are nutters. Trackdays or not they ride like they ride.

I personally ride slower and safer on the open road having been to trackdays as I no longer feel the need to use the road as a race track.

[rocketman1]

[QUOTE=idleidolidyll;1749531].....how to ride fast and safe on the roads rather than on the track.

There is one inherent problem with slow in fast out, (which incidentally , i agree with) and this is it: on roads that you have not travelled before, HOW FAST IS SLOW IN?? ....this is where people come unstuck.. blind corners can be very deceptive, I'm sure people think that I am too cautious on blind corners...
Hey 48% of bike accidents happen on corners.. so the message aint getting through about slow in..is it? This depends so much an your bike, the conditions and your ability.
Fast on the straights but be cautious at intersections and blind corners..you cannot avoid what you can't see..

Yes travel fast but safe, it can be done, but watch those blind bends..

[idleidolidyll]

some interesting comments here.
One thing we used to do when I lived in Christchurch was to start at the Hilltop (I think that was the name) and 'race' down into Little River with the engine turned off.
Obviously smoothriding was the key and brakes were the enemy.

Passing slow vehicles was ' interesting' to say the least!