F3 rules in one paragraph

[GSVR]

OK its pissing down with rain here...

Tyres - Open
Wheels - Open
Brakes - Open
Frames - Open
Fairings - Open
Suspension -Open
Electrical - Open
Exhaust - Open within Decibel Limitations
Carburation - Open but no turbo or superchargers
Fuel - Pump fuel only
Engines must be from a production roadbike. No competition bike engines (dirt or track). Engine modification free.
- singles - open
- up to 650cc twins or 750cc if air cooled
- 3 or more cylinders 450cc max - (possibly insert an aircooled 600cc limit here)



Note this is just an idea to see how many people see this similar to the way I do. I find the current rules ambiguous and difficult to understand. The rules above would make any bike legal under the current rules still legal.
Can anyone tell me the differences between what I have written and the current rules?

Any comments welcome.

[gav]

So is a 450cc four stroke MX/trail motor not legal then, as must be from production roadbike? :confused:

[GSVR]

So is a 450cc four stroke MX/trail motor not legal then, as must be from production roadbike? :confused:

How would you interpret it?

[quallman1234]

500cc 2 stroke single limit.

and

250 twin 2 stroke limit.

[Drew]

With regards to the single, I'm pretty sure MX motors are legal. That RS125 thingie was powered by a 450 crosser donk. Thinking about it, that was a 125GP frame, and it ran at the nationals and no-one protested.

[GSVR]

500cc 2 stroke single limit.

and

250 twin 2 stroke limit.

Very few people actually run 250 twostrokes and the current rules have them so highly regulated they aren't a competitive option.

It would be nice just to have an engine capacity limit and allow the use of any engines but then anyone serious with the cash would just go out and buy a late model 250 GP bike!

[FROSTY]

Why not simply go
Carburation - no turbo or superchargers
Fuel - Pump max 98 octane fuel only
engine size
-4 stroke
- singles - open
- up to 650ccmulti valve water cooled twins
750cc air cooled twin valve twins
- 3 or more cylinders 450cc max - (possibly insert an aircooled 600cc limit here)
2 stroke
500cc single
250cc multi cylinder

250 grand prix bikes specifically excluded.

IF it isn't mentioned here then its allowed provided the bike meets all non class specific rules

[GSVR]

With regards to the single, I'm pretty sure MX motors are legal. That RS125 thingie was powered by a 450 crosser donk. Thinking about it, that was a 125GP frame, and it ran at the nationals and no-one protested.

The frame rules or what is considered legal is very poorly understood. You can ask several racers who have been involved in the sport for years and get completely different answers. Anyone new to the sport would only follow by example. ie If they saw one racing at the Nats then it must be OK right?

[GSVR]

Why not simply go
Carburation - no turbo or superchargers
Fuel - Pump max 98 octane fuel only
engine size
-4 stroke
- singles - open
- up to 650ccmulti valve water cooled twins
750cc air cooled twin valve twins
- 3 or more cylinders 450cc max - (possibly insert an aircooled 600cc limit here)
2 stroke
500cc single
250cc multi cylinder

250 grand prix bikes specifically excluded.

IF it isn't mentioned here then its allowed provided the bike meets all non class specific rules

Wow thats an improvement on what I wrote! And like MotoGP the fewer rules you have the harder it is to get it wrong or break the rules.

Edit: what would stop someone putting a 250GP twostroke into a homebuilt frame?

[Cleve]

Edit: what would stop someone putting a 250GP twostroke into a homebuilt frame?

250GP's are excluded. BUT I think that is engines so you could put a 250 2 stroke production engine in a 250 GP frame and running gear...?

[lostinflyz]

my understanding was only gp250 motors are excluded. must be a production 2 stroke motor. and must be a production frame on a 2 stroke 250.

dont think there is anything limiting 4 stroke home built motors for those made of money. hmmm, maybe ill win power ball next week.

the rules read kinda wierd but they look pretty basic till part 5 of the f3 section. then im sure that its talking about 250 2 strokes only.

Is it really only pump 98 allowed??? I know a number of guys on more potent things.

[Drew]

The frame rules or what is considered legal is very poorly understood. You can ask several racers who have been involved in the sport for years and get completely different answers. Anyone new to the sport would only follow by example. ie If they saw one racing at the Nats then it must be OK right?


The Tigcraft bike is the one I was meaning, I just remembered the name.

I've looked in my copy of the rules, and it is quite unclear on a few points, but so is every other class.

[Drew]

Twin cylinder four strokes shall be limited as follows:
a) Up to 500cc, no restrictions apart from fuel as above.
b) Over 500cc, two valves per cylinder, are restricted to 750cc and fuel as above, over 640cc
must not be water-cooled.
c) Over 500cc three or more valves per cylinder, are restricted to 650cc and fuel as above.
Additionally these machines must retain the standard OEMair box, air filter element and
carburettor (with the exception of removable jets or throttle body, including injector).

SV650's dont qualify for F3 now apparently.

[steveyb]

Why exclude 250GP bikes?
Modern well built and well ridden F3 bikes are as fast or faster than most if not all 250GP bikes in NZ, even the newer ones.
It boils down to the riders. The best riders in NZ will not be on 250GP bikes, they will search for bigger fish to fry.
Hence, I feel that allowing 250GP bikes into the F3 class will provide a place for them to run and some competition for the front runners and a bit more scope for the class.
Not sure of the logic behind excluding competition based engines.
The build/cost decision rests with the owner/builder.


One difference with current rules is that 250 2T bikes must maintain the outline of the production bike, fairings not open.
Also, 4T bikes must be of Production-based origin, not open as your suggestion favours.

I feel that F3 being a formula class should be more free to allow more experimentation. It seems to be very much being pushed towards another Production class in NZ. If we are not careful the rule creep will provide nothing but production classes. This would not be the end of the world but would be a shame in my opinion.

Steve

PS: F3 rules were modified in 2006(???) to specifically include the SV and ER engines/bikes to supercde the original 2 cylinder rules.

[Kickaha]

Why exclude 250GP bikes?
Modern well built and well ridden F3 bikes are as fast or faster than most if not all 250GP bikes in NZ, even the newer ones.

The current 250GP bikes aren't going anywhere near as fast as they should be or used to though, in reality a top 250GP bike should be close to the 600 class times

[lostinflyz]

Why exclude 250GP bikes?
Modern well built and well ridden F3 bikes are as fast or faster than most if not all 250GP bikes in NZ, even the newer ones.
It boils down to the riders. The best riders in NZ will not be on 250GP bikes, they will search for bigger fish to fry.
Hence, I feel that allowing 250GP bikes into the F3 class will provide a place for them to run and some competition for the front runners and a bit more scope for the class.
Not sure of the logic behind excluding competition based engines.
The build/cost decision rests with the owner/builder.


One difference with current rules is that 250 2T bikes must maintain the outline of the production bike, fairings not open.
Also, 4T bikes must be of Production-based origin, not open as your suggestion favours.

I feel that F3 being a formula class should be more free to allow more experimentation. It seems to be very much being pushed towards another Production class in NZ. If we are not careful the rule creep will provide nothing but production classes. This would not be the end of the world but would be a shame in my opinion.

Steve

PS: F3 rules were modified in 2006(???) to specifically include the SV and ER engines/bikes to supercde the original 2 cylinder rules.

ummm dunno bout in the north island but i know down here that most the kids on 125's beat nigh on (if not all) the f3 field so 250gp bikes is a bit of a stretch. 85ish hp on a hundredish kg bike just aint fair. and while they arent on them now some will be if they were allowed in f3 cause they would dominate.

They kinda go beyond the specs of f3 (even the best) and thier inclusion would kinda make everything else pretty useless. Kinda crap cause they are epic wee machines but just dont fit anywhere.

while i like the idea of it being a formula class full of experimentation, it really needs to be proddy based as there isn't the money to support full race machinery such as the 250's(except 125's).

[Billy]

The current 250GP bikes aren't going anywhere near as fast as they should be or used to though, in reality a top 250GP bike should be close to the 600 class times

Absolutely!!! Sadanora Hikita,Pan Pacific rd 3 Manfeild 1991 qualified in the mid 1.09s and raced all day comfortably in the low 10s.At the same meeting 7 other riders including or own Shaun Harris were circulating in the low 12s or faster and a number of ridres have been in the 11s since.Notably Dave Cole and Troy ODonoghue

[lostinflyz]

if multicylinder motors need be production based, what the hell does production based mean???

theres nothing in the rules re:heads,valves,pistons,cases,cranks,rods ect.

[GSVR]

Why exclude 250GP bikes?
Modern well built and well ridden F3 bikes are as fast or faster than most if not all 250GP bikes in NZ, even the newer ones.
It boils down to the riders. The best riders in NZ will not be on 250GP bikes, they will search for bigger fish to fry.
Hence, I feel that allowing 250GP bikes into the F3 class will provide a place for them to run and some competition for the front runners and a bit more scope for the class.
Not sure of the logic behind excluding competition based engines.
The build/cost decision rests with the owner/builder.


One difference with current rules is that 250 2T bikes must maintain the outline of the production bike, fairings not open.
Also, 4T bikes must be of Production-based origin, not open as your suggestion favours.

I feel that F3 being a formula class should be more free to allow more experimentation. It seems to be very much being pushed towards another Production class in NZ. If we are not careful the rule creep will provide nothing but production classes. This would not be the end of the world but would be a shame in my opinion.

Steve



The logic of not allowing competition based engines is it allows the use of the GP motorcycle frames as long as they are repowered by a production based motor. This keeps the production and experimentation aspect which makes this class so unique and interesting.

When Brent Symes raced his RS125 powered with a CRF450 motor at a Manfeild round of the Nationals it was technically illegal? I realise the Tigcraft is/was technically a production based frame but that isn't that cutting it very fine too.

On that note could you reveal to me where is the rules it specifically states that you cannot use a frame of your own construction or a repowered GP frame?

Very happy with the discussion taking place lots of good information being posted.

[Shaun]

Absolutely!!! Sadanora Hikita,Pan Pacific rd 3 Manfeild 1991 qualified in the mid 1.09s and raced all day comfortably in the low 10s.At the same meeting 7 other riders including or own Shaun Harris were circulating in the low 12s or faster and a number of ridres have been in the 11s since.Notably Dave Cole and Troy ODonoghue



I did actually manage a 1-10 lap time at that meeting mate

[GSVR]

if multicylinder motors need be production based, what the hell does production based mean???

theres nothing in the rules re:heads,valves,pistons,cases,cranks,rods ect.

If its not mentioned in the rules you can do what you want! I'd say keep the bit with the engine numbers on it to prove what it originally was. So engine cases must stay.

[Billy]

I did actually manage a 1-10 lap time at that meeting mate

Yeah,I said under 1.12,Was a pity they wouldnt let you ride in the Pan Pacific races,It would have been good too see how fast you and Sadanora would have gone.

[Shaun]

Yeah,I said under 1.12,Was a pity they wouldnt let you ride in the Pan Pacific races,It would have been good too see how fast you and Sadanora would have gone.




That was because I was racing on an Irish Lisence at the time, so I could do some BSB races that year in the UK

Sadanori would have kicked my arse anyway. He was very very good

[roogazza]

The current 250GP bikes aren't going anywhere near as fast as they should be or used to though, in reality a top 250GP bike should be close to the 600 class times

Exactly, +1 there Kicka. The last one to be peddled here was that fella
Bruce Anti !!!! Gaz.

[Dodgy]

Why exclude 250GP bikes?
Modern well built and well ridden F3 bikes are as fast or faster than most if not all 250GP bikes in NZ, even the newer ones.
It boils down to the riders. The best riders in NZ will not be on 250GP bikes, they will search for bigger fish to fry.
Hence, I feel that allowing 250GP bikes into the F3 class will provide a place for them to run and some competition for the front runners and a bit more scope for the class.
Not sure of the logic behind excluding competition based engines.
The build/cost decision rests with the owner/builder.





Huh?? C'mon Steve as you know, when 125GP were allowed in F3 we used to have all sort of fun harrassing the 400 diesels! Historically the 250GP were part of F2 and they seemed to do well.

Really cant see the logic behind letting 250GP into F3 as any well ridden late model 250GP would run away with it! Of course, it has been a while since we have seen a well ridden late model 250GP in NZ...

Hey, where is my damn fairing duct :Pokey:

[svr]

RGV motors fit (just) into TZ chassis' - So you could have say 75hp (reliable) or a dodgy 80hp / 110 odd kilo combo... But the current rules prohibit that, of course.

[cowpoos]

OK its pissing down with rain here...

Tyres - Open
Wheels - Open
Brakes - Open
Frames - Open
Fairings - Open
Suspension -Open
Electrical - Open
Exhaust - Open within Decibel Limitations
Carburation - Open but no turbo or superchargers
Fuel - Pump fuel only
Engines must be from a production roadbike. No competition bike engines (dirt or track). Engine modification free.
- singles - open
- up to 650cc twins or 750cc if air cooled
- 3 or more cylinders 450cc max - (possibly insert an aircooled 600cc limit here)



Note this is just an idea to see how many people see this similar to the way I do. I find the current rules ambiguous and difficult to understand. The rules above would make any bike legal under the current rules still legal.
Can anyone tell me the differences between what I have written and the current rules?

Any comments welcome.
all that stuff is open??? that wouldn't make for the cheap racing you try to advocate??

Bit of a truth (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=115335&d=1231309208)

[scracha]

Huh?? C'mon Steve as you know, when 125GP were allowed in F3 we used to have all sort of fun harrassing the 400 diesels! Historically the 250GP were part of F2 and they seemed to do well.


They still normally combine the classes at club level and yes, they do harass the hell out of the 400 diesels. Nothing a block pass and an outstretched elbow doesn't fix though.

[GSVR]

Another dredged thread!

I have never advocated cheap racing across the board just cheap classes that novices can race in.

F3 is an expensive class. ProTwin should have been a cheap class but they didn't get the rules right (my opinion)

Supersport and Superbikes I don't care if they turn it back to F1 and F2 actually (very expensive). But for supersport it would be nice if theres a way to encourage more riders at national level. Oh there is the proposed "Privateers Cup"

[cowpoos]

Another dredged thread!

I have never advocated cheap racing across the board just cheap classes that novices can race in.

F3 is an expensive class. ProTwin should have been a cheap class but they didn't get the rules right (my opinion)

Supersport and Superbikes I don't care if they turn it back to F1 and F2 actually (very expensive). But for supersport it would be nice if theres a way to encourage more riders at national level. Oh there is the proposed "Privateers Cup"
pro twins is dirt cheap though???? so what the hell are you complaining about??

[GSVR]

pro twins is dirt cheap though???? so what the hell are you complaining about??

Streetstock is dirt cheap. F3 and ProTwin is cheap if you don't mind being uncompetitive. Ask Sam Love or Geoff Booth what they spent to prepare a bike or in Geoffs case two bikes to do the Nationals this year.

Was I complaining? None of this effects me personally as I don't race. But I do know alot of clubracers and understand the reasons they don't consider racing at the nationals. Many think its for guys that are racing at another level to them and if they show up will only get in the way or not be welcome.

[cowpoos]

Streetstock is dirt cheap. F3 and ProTwin is cheap if you don't mind being uncompetitive. Ask Sam Love or Geoff Booth what they spent to prepare a bike or in Geoffs case two bikes to do the Nationals this year.

Was I complaining? None of this effects me personally as I don't race. But I do know alot of clubracers and understand the reasons they don't consider racing at the nationals. Many think its for guys that are racing at another level to them and if they show up will only get in the way or not be welcome.
there was a 5k pro twins special on the podium and ruapuna this year I believe..

[GSVR]

there was a 5k pro twins special on the podium and ruapuna this year I believe..

Yeah . Cameron Jones I believe. But theres a story behind that bike I'm sure. Should have asked at Puke. I think it originally came from Auckland or is this just a rumour?

Bit like Deanos bike. That was like winning the lotto really. The Jones bike was a mess and had to be fixed. Andres bike was mint from the turners auction. The suspension cost more than the bike I believe.

[Whitebait]

As a first year F3 racer I'd have to say F3 at a club level is cheap! It's not untill you get a taste for it and want to go fast that the money starts disappearing.

I think that 2 stokes should be able to go over 250cc but still used the production bottom end.

Tyga perforance do a 300cc kit using NSR150 barrels. http://tyga-performance.com/site/product_info.php?cPath=71_22&products_id=45&osCsid=dd49be4474188b18c3eeb54d6ad89ad3 but at close to 800 pound it's not a cheap option.

How many "400's" are actually closer to 500's??

I do undersatnd that pro-twin is a bit of a production class and I hope to move into it towards the end of the year but I think the difference between a entry level F3 bike and NZ F3 #1's bike for example is way too far apart that they need to be seperate classes!!

If you were going to spend big money why wouldn't you just move up a class??

In my opinion NZ should be producing faster riders not faster bikes!

[Shaun]

Yeah . Cameron Jones I believe. But theres a story behind that bike I'm sure. Should have asked at Puke. I think it originally came from Auckland or is this just a rumour?

Bit like Deanos bike. That was like winning the lotto really. The Jones bike was a mess and had to be fixed. Andres bike was mint from the turners auction. The suspension cost more than the bike I believe.


:no: Hope you like OYSTERS

[budda]

On to it as always Shaun

[Yow Ling]

So under these rules the TSS500 http://www.twostrokeshop.com/Aprilia_RS500_2008.htm would be ok Aprillia RS250 frame yamaha RZ350 engine (makes engine proddy based) 112hp 130kg

[oyster]

There are 3 Jones brothers. Dom, Patch and Cam. Once I used to be faster than them all, but one by one.... Oh well....
Patch rides the budget "Burt Munro" special pro twin. He won 2 races and the Grand Prix at Ruapuna. Only two F3 bikes were ahead of him as well as dipped into the '39's. So yes, Pro Twin bikes are pretty handy.
And the story continues. We had to give the front barrel back we borrowed, and just now I'm sleeving the damaged original with a sleeve from a Lister dieselgenerator engine, about mid 50's and from Stewart Island. It'll be fast.....

[cowpoos]

There are 3 Jones brothers. Dom, Patch and Cam. Once I used to be faster than them all, but one by one.... Oh well....
Patch rides the budget "Burt Munro" special pro twin. He won 2 races and the Grand Prix at Ruapuna. Only two F3 bikes were ahead of him as well as dipped into the '39's. So yes, Pro Twin bikes are pretty handy.
And the story continues. We had to give the front barrel back we borrowed, and just now I'm sleeving the damaged original with a sleeve from a Lister dieselgenerator engine, about mid 50's and from Stewart Island. It'll be fast.....
and what was the total build cost of this machine oyster?? so people can see its not a big bucks monster!! [a picture would be good to :)]

[GSVR]

There are 3 Jones brothers. Dom, Patch and Cam. Once I used to be faster than them all, but one by one.... Oh well....
Patch rides the budget "Burt Munro" special pro twin. He won 2 races and the Grand Prix at Ruapuna. Only two F3 bikes were ahead of him as well as dipped into the '39's. So yes, Pro Twin bikes are pretty handy.
And the story continues. We had to give the front barrel back we borrowed, and just now I'm sleeving the damaged original with a sleeve from a Lister dieselgenerator engine, about mid 50's and from Stewart Island. It'll be fast.....

Cool post and thanks for the info.

[johnsv650]

i thought there were 4 jones boys ?

[Yow Ling]

i thought there were 4 jones boys ?

Yea but one of them is a girl.

[Drew]

How cheap do you copsider cheap G man?

I think $15000 would build as good a rpo-twins bike, as any out there, and that aint fuck all considering the things only need oil changes by way of maintanence.

It's all perspective I guess.

[gatch]

4 stroke single cylinders - open capacity.

This is good, as I have a plan, a xr650 motor in my spada chassis hehe.

I doubt it will be hugely competitive but fuck it I'm gonna throw it down anyway, hopefully the finished item will look a little more professional than this one..

Edit - p.s if anyone wants to make a donation to said project I am open to charity, cheers :D

[cowpoos]

4 stroke single cylinders - open capacity.

This is good, as I have a plan, a xr650 motor in my spada chassis hehe.

I doubt it will be hugely competitive but fuck it I'm gonna throw it down anyway, hopefully the finished item will look a little more professional than this one..

Edit - p.s if anyone wants to make a donation to said project I am open to charity, cheers :D
I have a mc28 chassis...sp model with single sided swing arm...magnesium wheels [17 inch]...for sale :)

[Shaun]

i thought there were 4 jones boys ?



Oyster only acts like a BOY mate

[driftn]

I have a mc28 chassis...sp model with single sided swing arm...magnesium wheels [17 inch]...for sale :)


You still got that heap.

Ill give you a hundy for it.