Product recalls – shattering urban myths

[Bob]

I came into possession of some statistics regarding product recalls by the major manufacturers for 2004. Interesting thing for me from those figures? The urban myths of reliability etc about the ‘Big 4’ are turned neatly on their head.

Honda? Wonderful. last forever - most recalls (10). Kawasaki normally mentioned next as most reliable - 8 recalls. Yamaha and Suzuki - normally slated - 3 and 0 respectively.

Yamaha's three 2004 recalls were for possible transmission lock up on XV1600 and 1700 models, and one for chafing wiring on YP400s.
Kawasaki recalled for leaking carbs on VN800s, oil leaks on VN1500 and 1600s, snapping ZX10 front wheels, the possibility of the front brake hose getting trapped on the VN200 and a shock absorber fault on the KLX110 while
Honda had fracturing rear brake master cylinders on the CBR600RR, fracturing handlebar bolts on the FJS600, fracturing brake pedals on NTV650s, inaccurate speedos on CBR1000RRs and fuel tanks die stamp problems on FJS600s.

Triumph - not great - 16 recalls in 2004, though all but one were for two faults - fracturing fuel pipes connectors on pretty much the whole range and breaking rear suspension attachments on the Bonneville range.

America & Speedmaster - "Possibility that the starter motor power supply cable may come into direct contact with the oil cooler return pipe".

Ducati – 3. No details to hand as to exactly what these were for.

But the most telling figure? Which company are associated with their bike breaking down, leaking oil, falling apart at the roadside and so on? It would be fair to say Harley-Davidson. So how many recalls did the Milwaukee manufacturer put out in 2004? Try none. That’s right, zero, zip, nada, zilch.

Of course, size of product range and sales volumes have to be taken into account. Honda sells many more motorcycles than the others, so it is fair to assume there would be a higher recall figure. But H-D are a mass producer – and their record is unbeatable.

[Big Dave]

I came into possession of some statistics regarding product recalls by the major manufacturers for 2004.

that's very interesting - would you reveal the source?
bd

[Bob]

that's very interesting - would you reveal the source?
bd

No. A good journo NEVER revels his source! I may not be a good journo, but I am an ethical one!

Actually, a friend of mine is an analyst, so he has ways of getting hold of all sort of industry-type information. The subject of the Rocket III recall came up - and from there spread to recalls generally... and he came up with the figures I've quoted.

[StoneChucker]

that's very interesting - would you reveal the source?
bd
If he did, he could go work for the BBC :lol:

[Big Dave]

No. A good journo NEVER revels his source! I may not be a good journo, but I am an ethical one!
.

Cool - I might not be an ethical features writer - but i'm a good one.
bd
:devil2:

[Bob]

Cool - I might not be an ethical features writer - but i'm a good one.
bd
:devil2:

Features writer eh? Who for?

Don't know if you realise, but my "Number 2 Job" (the interesting one - the "Day Job" is a System Administrator), is as feature writer and newshound for Used Bike Guide (UBG) magazine. I've also had a few product reviews in RiDE magazine.

And... the list goes on... I was the British Superbikes corresponent for Race24, before moving on to cover the World Endurance championship for the official website. Oh yeah, I've also written for other bike mags and used to be deputy editor of a sadly defunct magazine called "Grapevine".

Oh yeah... and I've been working on gradually building an online "Ezine" for the last year in amongst everything else (URL at the bottom of the page).

I do this little lot - for nothing - as what news is picked up and run with is down, as you'll know, to editorial whim. So I like to see all the stuff I think is interesting put out there.

[Bob]

Been talking to a mate of mine (who is also in the bike writing business) and he noted how many of the recalls mentioned above are on cruisers.

And he put forward this theory on why it happens:

"Been thinking about the number of cruisers recalled.

When sports bikes are launched, they tend to get thrashed around a track
for a couple of days by hungover journalists, and then when they hit the
shops the bikes will be tested against each other on a different race
track - in both cases they'll be ridden beyond the level that most
customers will manage, even doing regular trackdays. This means that
these models have to be as near perfect as possible before they're
unleashed on the public, and if there are any defects they need to be
cleared as quickly as possible.

Cruisers, on the other hand, will get a much easier life during press
launches, roadtests (although I've heard of two magazines who have
broken Rocket III clutches, and we snapped a footpeg off one) and in the
hands of owners. There's also less emphasis on "new technology" so
production changes are less likely to be as thoroughly planned and
implemented...

So

CBR600RRR wheels fall off; journalists get hurt = pr disaster
VX1700 Cruiser front brake fails; a merchant banker has to get a taxi
home = mildly inconvenient."

I get the feeling that new cruiser reviews are very much given to the normal race-rep reviewers who haven't much to do that day. So they potter round on them, slag them off for not being a race-rep and hand them back, trying not to look disgusted.

If only a magazine would have the guts to include more cruisers in their review range... and have a dedicated cruiser reviewer. OK, they'd have to do other jobs as well (cruisers are never going to justify someone employed purely to test them), but if someone was testing them on a regular basis, the niggles would be spotted more easily and maybe would get sorted out before main production lines kicked into action.

[Dodgyiti]

Harley have been doing the same thing for 30 years, you would hope they have got it right. :blink:
Prior to that, you needed to be a mechanic to run one :sweatdrop

[erik]

... The urban myths of reliability etc about the ‘Big 4’ are turned neatly on their head.
...

But the most telling figure? Which company are associated with their bike breaking down, leaking oil, falling apart at the roadside and so on? It would be fair to say Harley-Davidson. So how many recalls did the Milwaukee manufacturer put out in 2004? Try none. That’s right, zero, zip, nada, zilch.
...

All that doesn't neccessarily mean that Hondas had the most faults, does it?
Just that they had the largest number of recalls. Perhaps Honda makes more of an effort to recall things that aren't up to standard, whereas other manufacturers let some faults slip by? Maybe Harley Davidson don't make so many recalls partly because people expect things to go wrong and don't mind paying their mechanics to fix things for them? :whistle:

[Motu]

Good theory Bob - only one dirt bike recall...a dirt bike will punished severly in magazine tests,much more than any street bike will be put to.

[Holy Roller]

Saw a doco on discovery about the VROD the testing that that bike went through was similar to trucks, miles and miles tested on special tracks, open highway testing every componet. Certainly changed my mind about the reliability of this bike these days.

[Bob]

Erik,

Indeed - when you consider the size and variety of Honda's range, 10 recalls isn't so bad. Kawasaki, on the other hand, have a smaller range and sell a lot less, so 8 is proportionately poor performance (a dealer I used to use was always complaining about Kawasaki recalls).

As for not saying anything as they break down - I understand Ford once did this with the Pinto car? Seems they reasoned that paying compensation would be cheaper and less damaging in news terms than a recall... then they started getting sued and so forth...

Regarding the VROD, I believe this was the most heavily tested HD ever.

I'm surprised nobody picked up on that American one, where the recall was to do with the starter motor power supply cable may come into direct contact with the oil cooler return pipe! The word that springs to mind is EEK!

Sheer hammering is something that makes me buy Bike magazine - they use a test route when running comparisons of 400 miles of a wide range of roads, which is a good reflection of "normal" punishment. If you get to see one in a magazine shop that imports UK titles, take a look. The results are very useful.

[toads]

that was a really interesting read Bob well done!
I think a lot of us base our opinions regarding which bikes are reliable on what we have personally owned and experienced, the honda I base my opinion on I had from new, the kawasaki, suzuki and yamaha bikes I have owned were all 2nd hand, there is no comparison between buying a new bike to having a second hand one really in terms of reliability.
I also saw the doco holy roller mentioned about the v-rod and have to say it really was impressive the lengths they went to, to ensure reliability in the most extreme conditions.
I do think though race bikes shouldn't be compared to cruisers they have much higher engine revs and are built much more lightly, so it only stands to reason they would experience more recalls, due to the entirely different type of engine design and construction of the chassis etc, and the way they are used, most harley owners look after their bikes enthusiastically and avoid risk taking, whereas race bikes are made to be pushed to the limits, and frequently exceed them.

[Big Dave]

Features writer eh? Who for?

Don't know if you realise, but my "Number 2 Job" (the interesting one - the "Day Job" is a System Administrator), is as feature writer and newshound for Used Bike Guide (UBG) magazine. I've also had a few product reviews in RiDE magazine.

And... the list goes on... I was the British Superbikes corresponent for Race24, before moving on to cover the World Endurance championship for the official website. Oh yeah, I've also written for other bike mags and used to be deputy editor of a sadly defunct magazine called "Grapevine".

Oh yeah... and I've been working on gradually building an online "Ezine" for the last year in amongst everything else (URL at the bottom of the page).

I do this little lot - for nothing - as what news is picked up and run with is down, as you'll know, to editorial whim. So I like to see all the stuff I think is interesting put out there.

Nice
I'm a regular at Kiwi Rider magazine. Listed as a 'tester' and the 'touring correspondent'.

I also have my own design and advertising studio and knock out the marketing support, PR, and advertising for Triumph NZ, Shoei, teknics, motomail and a heap of others.

www.davidcohen.co.nz

Keep it comin' mate
chz
bd

[Bob]

that was a really interesting read Bob well done!

Thanks for that - it just really interested me when I saw the figures, especially when you consider the "Urban truths" that get around.


I think a lot of us base our opinions regarding which bikes are reliable on what we have personally owned and experienced

Which is why things like reviews from guys who actually own the bikes and put the miles in are so useful (working for a USED Bike Guide, I would say that - but we cover bikes where the rider has put in 5,000 miles so you've got a good idea how good or bad they are). You get the standard "Quality? Well it is a Honda" stuff punted out time and again (sorry to keep saying Honda, but it is the marque that gets these comments... and they're going to get recalls as well), so I like to see the 'warts and all' reviews along with the reports from the track or press launch as well.

At the moment, I'm toying with the idea of a Z750 when the time comes to replace the current SV650S... but I am waiting until they've been around long enough for some used tests to appear (I also want one of the latest model, as it is supposed to be better than the 1st issue).


Ido think though race bikes shouldn't be compared to cruisers they have much higher engine revs and are built much more lightly, so it only stands to reason they would experience more recalls, due to the entirely different type of engine design and construction of the chassis etc, and the way they are used, most harley owners look after their bikes enthusiastically and avoid risk taking, whereas race bikes are made to be pushed to the limits, and frequently exceed them.

Strangely, the bulk of the recalls appear to have been for cruisers as opposed to race reps - take a look at the earlier post regarding the thoughts of a friend of mine who writes about biking as well. Makes for a thought-provoking time when you read the glossy "new bike" tests.

[Paul in NZ]

Hey come on now!

HD should have recalled the twin cams for the bearing failures but chose not to. I don't see a maker doing the right thing by their products as a problem. I see it as a GOOD thing.

Some makers have all the faults but don't take responsibility. The number of recalls is just half the story.

Paul N

[The Preacher]

that was a really interesting read Bob well done!
I think a lot of us base our opinions regarding which bikes are reliable on what we have personally owned and experienced, the honda I base my opinion on I had from new, the kawasaki, suzuki and yamaha bikes I have owned were all 2nd hand, there is no comparison between buying a new bike to having a second hand one really in terms of reliability.

For road testing and comparison for crusiers goto
http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com and see how it should be done.

They take various makes of bike with the same CC rating. Choose a group of motorcycle writers M/F of different body size, change bikes every so many Kms so that after the 2-3 day ride each writer has riden every bike.

Makes for great reading and I feel a 100% better bike review :yeah:

[White trash]

Hey come on now!

HD should have recalled the twin cams for the bearing failures but chose not to. I don't see a maker doing the right thing by their products as a problem. I see it as a GOOD thing.

Some makers have all the faults but don't take responsibility. The number of recalls is just half the story.

Paul N

Ummmm, they did. In 1999. Later model bikes are sweet from new. This only applys to 2004.

[Two Smoker]

Good to see the best motorcycle manufacturer had Zero recalls (namely Suzuki.....) YES SUZUKI DOES RULE!!!!!

[Blakamin]

what about leaky buells??? aye stoney :yes:

[XTC]

Jeez even the space shuttle can have recalls...... So did my falcon.

[BugSplat]

I high recall count could be taken as a company willing to accept when it has a problem and do the honorable thing … sort it out !

A low recall rate could mean exceptional design & manufacture, or it could mean a company that's not willing to accept any problems it has ?

Worth thinking about :unsure:

[pete376403]

Saw a doco on discovery about the VROD the testing that that bike went through was similar to trucks, miles and miles tested on special tracks, open highway testing every componet. Certainly changed my mind about the reliability of this bike these days.

The V-rod was a whole new ball game for HD. it HAD to be as perfect as possible otherwise it would have been rubbished by Harley faithful as well as everyone else. Bit like the first of the Bloor Triumphs, way overbuilt to eliminate the taint of the previous Triumphs. Now that they are well established, probably not such an issue if they break now and then

[Pwalo]

Good to see the best motorcycle manufacturer had Zero recalls (namely Suzuki.....) YES SUZUKI DOES RULE!!!!!

Could be that the big 'S' have a habit of using a lot of older (hence more sorted) technology in their bikes. GS' GSXF's, Bandits, GS1200SS', cruisers. Almost anything bar the GSXR series - which seems pretty well sorted.

Doesn't worry me.

Honda seem to have a different approach to building bikes, and are perhaps more willing to take a chance on less well proven technology. Look at their non VFR V4s.

I'm not sure why, but they do have a great rep in the biking press, especially on their new machines, but I do see more old Suzukis around than most other brands.

Could just be because they sell more Suzuki's than other makes in NZ.

[Paul in NZ]

Ummmm, they did. In 1999. Later model bikes are sweet from new. This only applys to 2004.

Hmmmm... Perhaps I should lend you some copies of Motorcycle Consumer news... According to the letters, HD fixed the bikes when they actually failed but didn't apparently recall bikes that had not failed. - yet. (if you get my drift)

They had some interesting stats as well. Some later bikes did still have the problem but the frequency did decline. I can dig out the issue if you want a copy..

Interesting magazine. No adds at all so they say what they feel like.. It's rather different...

Paul N

[avgas]

Good theory Bob - only one dirt bike recall...a dirt bike will punished severly in magazine tests,much more than any street bike will be put to.
Gives me an idea, they should let me test road bikes.
If a cant brake something within 2 days they must be good.

[avgas]

I high recall count could be taken as a company willing to accept when it has a problem and do the honorable thing … sort it out !
A low recall rate could mean exceptional design & manufacture, or it could mean a company that's not willing to accept any problems it has ?
Worth thinking about :unsure:
Good point, i remeber my panel beating tutor saying he will keep driving mitisi's, jags etc etc cos they are honest about the recalls. And fix their problems.
He also mentioned that he would never own a honda (car) for the same reason, called them cheap coffins, something about them doing 6in spot welds when the international standard was every 4in.

[TwoSeven]

Sorry I dont believe those stats - mainly because you cant judge the quality of a machine or factory by the number of recalls.

First of all, taking harly as an example, their chassis and brake system is very simple compared to the alloys used on a modern bike. So its unlikely they are going to issue a recall unless the factory really buggered up their design somehow.

Also, looking at harley, the number of models of bike they create each year is very very small - mostly its just putting a new bit on an old model, where as the japanese firms tend to build 20 to 30 new models where most of the parts are new.

Finally, having seen the faults list on harlies, i'm not surprised they issue no recalls, they make the customer pay for the hundreds of faults and thats my theory on how they get their income - spare parts :)

[Biff]

Yeah - but 85% of recalls by Honda were for non safety related matters, while 74% of Yamaha's were urgent safety recalls. Kawasaki stated that all of their recalls were safety related while 87% of statistics are made up.............

[Blakamin]

Why would H-D recall anything??? they'd get it back to fix and find everything replaced wif "Screamin' Gargle" parts anyway......

[Bob]

Sorry I dont believe those stats - mainly because you cant judge the quality of a machine or factory by the number of recalls.


There is no disputing the stats - they are 100% correct. They ARE the number of recalls issued by the various companies.

However, the way you interpret them is another thing altogether... as you have so tidily proven... :innocent:

[avgas]

There is no disputing the stats - they are 100% correct.
Never seen 100% accurate stats before.....what do they look like :lol:

[Bob]

I knew I shouldn't have put a figure in there... :doh:

[Big Dave]

I knew I shouldn't have put a figure in there... :doh:


87.3% of statistics are made up 'on the spot'.
bd

[Drunken Monkey]

Never seen 100% accurate stats before.....what do they look like :lol:

you're assuming all stats are samples - if it's a census, there's no reason to doubt the data.

[Skunk]

87.3% of statistics are made up 'on the spot'.
bdI saw a study that shows the figure is closer to 89.2%

[Lou Girardin]

All that doesn't neccessarily mean that Hondas had the most faults, does it?
Just that they had the largest number of recalls. Perhaps Honda makes more of an effort to recall things that aren't up to standard, whereas other manufacturers let some faults slip by? Maybe Harley Davidson don't make so many recalls partly because people expect things to go wrong and don't mind paying their mechanics to fix things for them? :whistle:

In the land of litigation (USA), I doubt if any manufacturer would let faults "slip by".
Warehouse bikes rule!

[marty]

I high recall count could be taken as a company willing to accept when it has a problem and do the honorable thing … sort it out !

A low recall rate could mean exceptional design & manufacture, or it could mean a company that's not willing to accept any problems it has ?

Worth thinking about :unsure:

my thoughts exactly.

[muzz]

87.3% of statistics are made up 'on the spot'.
bd
If this is a statistic does it mean that this is 87.3% made up as well :doh:
I dont know what to beleive any more :unsure: :lol:

[inlinefour]

Honda has the most recalls because of their honesty and want for customer satisfaction. Last year was the year of car companies refusing to accept recalls when needed and its good to see Honda meeting their responsibilities :first: