Flashing stop lights, traffic light triggers, and wheel lights [Archive]

View Full Version : Flashing stop lights, traffic light triggers, and wheel lights

notme

29th January 2005, 13:49

Hey all, forgive my laziness but I'm just going to cut n paste what i've sent off the the LTSA - it should have enough info to explain the title of this post i hope! :-)

Looking for feedback from the KB community as to the rules if anyone knows (we need a reference to actual documents though not just anecdotal - this is important if we go ahead and sell the products mentioned below!) and also if anyone has used any similar products please tell us how they worked for ya. cheers!

----------------------PASTED EMAIL TO THE LTSA---------------------
Hi,

could this email please be passed to the appropriate people to answer the questions below:

The company I work for develops electronic products - quite a few of these are automotive products. We are looking at developing a couple of motorcycle based products, and have some questions regarding the laws relating to the proposed products.

We have used the LTSA site and contacted various WOF and licensing agents, however no one has been able to give a definitive answer to these questions although there has been a lot of anecdotal advice given to us. We would be very appreciative if the LTSA couuld provide answers with references to the relevant acts, laws, or sections of the road code.

The questions are as follows:

1. The first product we would like to develop is a unit that flashes the rear stop light of a motorcycle (it could be applied to cars as well). The unit would flash the stop light say twice or 3 times, then light the stop light continuously. The only reference to the regulations for this we can find is in this document: http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/rules/vehicle-lighting-2004.html in section 2.1(3). Is this rule the final word on the subject or is there as it says, another rule somewhere that supercedes this one? Similar products are available and legal in other coutries, for example: http://www.webbikeworld.com/Reviewed-motorcycle-products/comagination/visistop/visistop.htm

2. The second product would be a device to trigger traffic light road sensors - most likely it would be a simple magnet similar to: http://www.greenlightstuff.com/trigger.html. Are devices like this legal? If a simple magnet such as this is legal, what about an electromagnet that can be switched on and off? There is more info here: http://motorcycles.about.com/cs/beginners/ht/tripatraflight.htm

3. The final product is similar to the "firefly" as described here: http://shop.store.yahoo.com/edgeoutside/vacapfivastl.html are these devices legal for cars/motorbikes in NZ? The document here: http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/rules/vehicle-lighting-2004.html doesn't mention wheel lights specifically..... additionally, what colours would be allowed for this type of device? i.e. would red be disallowed because the rules currently state that red lights must only face rearward?

Thanks in advance!

--

signature

--------------END PASTED EMAIL--------------------------

Coyote

29th January 2005, 14:05

Traffic Light Trigger sounds good. I'ld buy one, depending on the legality

notme

29th January 2005, 14:49

I can't see why LTSA would have a problem with that particular one, since most likely it just needs to be a bigass magnet mounted under the bike somewhere....

I am investigating that one right now actually, just been for a ride down the road to a particularly sucky set of lights in Mt Wellington.....results of first experiment: TOTAL FAILURE.....bugger. :-)

XTC

29th January 2005, 15:08

We imported a stop light flasher in the early nineties.... Couldn't sell the things or give them away.

notme

29th January 2005, 16:57

Really? Oh well, that´s another sneaky reason for my posting here of course - market research! :-) Tell ya what - I will be the first to install my traffic light trigger when i get the bastard working....

wkid_one

29th January 2005, 17:23

Don't install FireFly type lights - they are known to rapidly and spontaneously deflate tyres. Not a good thing on bikes.

Magnet light triggers would be good - but aren't some set off by weight thereby making this 'tool' redundant?

And - the problem with a flashing rear light is that if you are hard on the picks - yet the driver sees your lights flash on and off - he/she is likely to think you are just tapping your brakes and delay their reaction time and before you know it - they are parked up your sphincter having a good look at your rectum (darn near kill'm)

But good ideas none the same

notme

29th January 2005, 20:49

Magnet light triggers would be good - but aren't some set off by weight thereby making this 'tool' redundant?

Almost all lights in NZ are either simple phase timed patterns, or inductive loop sensors. The better sets ("better" means they have been classed as more important and therefore have had more money spent on them) are both - they go thru timed phases but have an override algorithm that tries to change the phase timing so that if one direction is waaaay busy it gets slightly higher priority. Interesting side note - in the states they have technology to allow emergency vehicles to carry a transciever that causes the lights in the ambo or firey's path to go green - have you heard of that at all FireFight mate?

Anyway, there are very very few weight sensors - although Transit do own some that can dynamically measure a vehicle's weight WHILE it passes over the sensor....not as accurate as a proper weighbridge but still pretty amazing if you think about it!

And now reading back on this post I realise what an electronics geek i really am. Ah well, I spose at least your typical electronics geek doesn't turn up to work on a bike with full leathers covering the tattoos, and half deaf from playing in his metal band in town the night before.....
:rockon:

Please note i am still investigating this whole thing, it's a very preliminary product investigation at this stage. Just seeing what the interest is, and getting useful info like what wkid_one says about the FireFlys. :-)

XTC

29th January 2005, 21:13

XTC

29th January 2005, 21:17

Speedmedic.....
I was following an ambulance along the breakdown lane on the westen m/way once when I was young and stupid..... Couldn't see the cop parked on the side of the m/way till the ambulance went around him.... Luckily only got a warning.

crashe

29th January 2005, 21:33

I am assuming that you are talking about when bikes are sitting at a set of lights.... and they dont change at all unless a car comes along with it weight to help trigger it off...?

If so, I pulled up to my local set of lights yesterday and a guy was working on the lights... so sitting there I chatted to him, asking him to reset the trigger.... I was able to prove to him that the weight of my bike and me was not heavy enough to trigger it... I had sat there for two sets of lights....
He explained to me where to position the bike on the square that had a cut in the ground.... to park on it.... or on the side of it... I did this and still it didnt work, so he said that he would reset the lights.... he also knew what I meant as he too also rides bikes..... have yet to go back and test if he has done it...

Since then I have seen at most sets of lights a piece that has a square cut just before or on the white line on the road....

ajturbo

29th January 2005, 22:06

We need permission from motorways to use redchip/greenchip or breakdown lanes. (in each intance)
Unless its imminent life threatening then we advise comms we are using it and they let motorways know.... otherwise we are expected to sit in traffic like the rest of ya.

Funny how in peak hour traffic the patient condition "deteriorates" to the point we need to travel priority one :innocent: ..
then they suddenly come right again!!

tools of the trade eh..... we all gota have em...

notme

30th January 2005, 00:38

any idea of price yet.....

It's far too early to be thinking of pricing yet - BUT, to be honest mate, I will probably use the fact that I have an electronics factory and a particularly bitchy set of traffic lights at my disposal at work, and abuse work time and resources in order to find out what type/strength/orientation of magnet works best and report back here for the benefit of us all. I don't really think there's a product there, unless it turns out that you need some very specific magnet that I find i can import cheaply :2thumbsup

I was more thinking of the flashing light and or firefly-type thing as products you see, since they actually require some electronix. Although I have a sneaking suspicion that a pulsed electromagnet might work better than a permanent magnet for triggering lights - so the traffic light trigger might need some electronix after all, making it a "real" product. If that WAS the case though, I'd have to check that option out very carefully with the LTSA because it becomes an active device interferring with the road sensors.

I am assuming that you are talking about when bikes are sitting at a set of lights.... and they dont change at all unless a car comes along with it weight to help trigger it off...?

If so, I pulled up to my local set of lights yesterday and a guy was working on the lights... so sitting there I chatted to him, asking him to reset the trigger.... I was able to prove to him that the weight of my bike and me was not heavy enough to trigger it... I had sat there for two sets of lights....
He explained to me where to position the bike on the square that had a cut in the ground.... to park on it.... or on the side of it... I did this and still it didnt work, so he said that he would reset the lights.... he also knew what I meant as he too also rides bikes..... have yet to go back and test if he has done it...

I don't mean to question the tech that was working on the lights, but I'd be very surprised if the lights you're talking about were on weight triggers.

The cheapest, most reliable (in overall terms...) and most versatile option for traffic light sensing is the use of inductive loops.
It's a common misconception that a vehicle's weight triggers the lights - so here's how it really works if you're interested - warning, the following may cause extreme boredom in non - geeks .... :sleep:

Next time you are out and about, look at the road in each lane in front of the lights, about a metre before the stop lines. If the lights are on inductive loop sensors (90% chance of that!) you'll see where 2 squares have been cut out of the road. Under the squares are loops of wire, typically 3 or 4 loops. Now, these loops of wire form air-cored inductors, and if we pass current through the inductors at a given frequency, we will get a certain signal as an output. When a large ferromagnetic mass (i.e. a vehicle) stops over or near the inductor, this output signal changes, and voila - we can say that a vehicle is stopped at the lights and then take appropriate action. This is a very very simplified explanation, there are many other variables that are just not appropriate to this forum, but the important point is that the sensors are usually calibrated to trigger when anything larger than a small car is present.

So, when our bikes hit the sensors, they quite often will not trigger because a) the mass of steel in a bike is far less than that in a car (duh)
b) if you're on a modern sportbike, you probably have very little steel in the thing anyway, it's more likely to be aluminium and other alloys which don't trip the sensors so well.

The idea of either the permanent magnet or the electromagnet idea is to fool the sensor into thinking that a big enough mass of ferromagnetic material is in the area to make it trigger, so that us bikers can be on our merry way!

In theory, the best place to be to trigger the sensor is on the middle join of the cutouts in the road, i.e. right in the middle of the lane. But you'll probably find from experience as I have, that if a sensor is goint to detect you it is going to work whether you're in the middle or off to one side, and if it's going to ignore you then it doesn't matter where you are :-( This is what happens to me most mornings in mount wellington.....dammit. Well let's just call that MOTIVATION shall we? ;-)

crashe

30th January 2005, 06:24

ummm maybe I didnt explain it correctly...... but what you said about the cut out bits is what this dude was talking about.... and it still didnt work for me when he pointed out where to put the bike.... so thats why he said that he would reset it.... so they must be able to do reset it from the side of the road....

Gixxer 4 ever

30th January 2005, 08:18

so here's how it really works if you're interested - warning, the following may cause extreme boredom in non - geeks .... :sleep: ;-)
Thanks for that. It was very enlightening. If you had not posted this info I was going to ask you about it. So the problem with the magnet is ? Size required or ( and I know little of these things ) the frequency of the field from different magnets or magnet types?

notme

30th January 2005, 11:27

Thanks for that. It was very enlightening. If you had not posted this info I was going to ask you about it. So the problem with the magnet is ? Size required or ( and I know little of these things ) the frequency of the field from different magnets or magnet types?

A permanent magnet (i.e. "normal magnet") has a steady magnetic field around it. Remember, what we need to do is cause enough of a disturbance to the road sensor's magnetic field to make it trigger - with a permanent magnet this happens because Lenz's law says that any change in the magnetic environment of a coil of wire will cause a voltage to be induced in the coil. So the only things we can change with permanent magnets are the strength of the magnet which is usually determined by it's type, (ceramic, rare earth, etc) and the orientation of the magnet and thus it's field.

Over the weekend I have been trying different magnets from the stock at work and riding through the lights that give me trouble...but it's a long slow process cos i have to go thru without the magnet a couple of times following the exact same line, then with the magnet, then with the magnet in a different position or orientation..... yeah it's gonna take a while :ride:

The other method i am thinking of is to have an electromagnet (basically a magnet you can switch on an off) and pulse it at the right frequency to cause the most disturbance to the road sensor.

Some more interesting facts: in some states in the USA, cyclists or motorcyclists are allowed to run a red light under strict conditions (right turn only i think) if they wait thru 3 cycles of the lights without a green.
Also, over there they often have lines marked on the road at intersections that show where a bike should stop to give the best chance of triggering the lights. I've never seen that anywhere in NZ..... anyone seen this practice?

One final tip - another thing you can try if you're stuck at some lights is to kill the engine then start it up again - the spraying electromagnetic field generated by your starter motor will sometimes trigger the lights. This works better if you stop right on the edge of the sensor cutout.....

Hang on, check out this ASCII art: :Punk:

INTERSECTION

|========== |
|...........|
|*|...|...|*| <----stop in either of the places marked with a *
||....|...|| i.e. on the cutout line in the road, at the front
||___ |___|| edge of the box.
|.......... |
|...........|
|...........|
|...........|

heheh well that didn't come out too good...the forum strips out too many spaces! but hopefully you get the idea !

But as crashe says, some sets of lights just will not go no mattter where you are on the road - they can be affected by things like rebars in nearby concrete, big plates in the road nearby like manhole covers, or they might simply be out of adjustment -the wheatstone bridges that drive the sensors can drift over time because of sunspots, littel green men...whatever! I have called up the local council before and asked if they'd go and look at certain sets of lights if enough bikers told them it was a problem......basic answer from three different area councils was "no, piss off buddy" so I'm pursuing this other method now.

Gixxer 4 ever

30th January 2005, 14:30

A permanent magnet (i.e. "normal magnet") has a steady magnetic field around it.

The other method i am thinking of is to have an electromagnet (basically a magnet you can switch on an off) and pulse it at the right frequency to cause the most disturbance to the road sensor.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. :2thumbsup The electro magnet sounds like a go. We have plenty of spare charge in most modern bikes and thou I know nothin of these things I would think they would put out more power per gram of weight. You would want to put an auto off switch say on a timer or somethin or it would have to be wired up though the key and that means some of your market would not bother but a plug and go with auto off would be cool. No flat battery. I remember the first time I put a rear window demister in my Viva way back when I was a young fellow Had to push start it a few times because I got distracted and forgot to turn it off. :shit: :o Keep at it and I hope it turns in to somethin good for you. I just run the reds now if no one is around. :shutup: :yeah: Not many cameras down here.

notme

30th January 2005, 14:53

Thanks for taking the time to reply. :2thumbsup

Thanks for taking the time to read in the first place and asking questions! I know that there is a lot in this world that i know shit all about, but i'm not afraid to speak up if i DO know the answers! :-)

If I ask a question (usually on an internet forum such as this, in this day and age) I appreciate it when someone takes the time to answer it if they have the necessary knowledge - so in my mind the way to repay that is to contribute back to the general good karma of the world :calm:

Funnily enough I stopped last week whilst riding home from work to help a biker that was pulled up off the road, and had a very similar conversation to the above with the guy. (not a KB'er - I asked) He had been running with the petcock on reserve accidentally so had run himself dry, I keep a 1.5m piece of fuel line under my seat for just such an occasion, well actually it was originally in case i ran out of fuel but it's never been put the that use luckily! Anyway i siphoned off some fuel for the dude, and he was very thankful and offered me some cash, but in the same vein as above i told him bugger the money, it's like 2 bucks worth of petrol, just remember to stop and do what you can next time you see a fellow biker on the side of the road! We're all in this together aye.

Anyway that was a bit OT ...... I better go play with the traffic lights some more. I WILL get this working if it's possible!

Wonko

30th January 2005, 15:45

notme

30th January 2005, 16:20

Nah although I have had trouble with those ones too.... The ones a few metres from work are the intersection of Carbine road and Clemow drive. Try turning right out of Clemow drive....I've tried no less than 7 different bikes on those lights, none have ever been able to trigger that right turn.

crashe

30th January 2005, 17:42

if ya come out west....
1. Massey - check out the one on Royal Rd/ Makora Rd heading towards the Motorway.
But its the RIGHT HAND TURN ONLY not the straight throu ok.

2. Te Atatu South - The other set is McLeod Rd turning right into Te Atatu Road heading towards the motorway.

3. Western Springs - And Great North Rd coming from the city to go towards the Zoo..... the straight ahead set of lights... man ya sit there for ages and ages.

These three are the worst ones that I can think of at the mo....

notme

19th March 2005, 12:25

Sorry this took a while guys....but since the infamous Duck vs Kwaka incident (http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php?t=9382&highlight=duck) I hadn't done much more research.... :o

So anyway, I finished collating everything last night into a big fat folder - here are the important points followed by detailed explanations (geez....someone spends far too much time writing technical reports!:

1. Magnets probably won't work for you.
2. Positioning is critical.
3. The authorities seems to be very responsive to this issue.
4. Active triggering does always work but is not practical.

So, here's more detail on each point:
1. Magnets affect the sensors slightly, but over several dozen different experiments both in the lab and on the road, there were no outstanding results that suggest that magnets are a magic cure.
The magnet's field needs to cut the sensor's field in the right orientation and whilst moving - the relevant equations show that the faster the magnet moves the better, and considering where the sensors are on the road a motorbike is likely to only be moving slowly as it approaches them.
It seems that the main reason magnets seem to work is actually a secondary effect - products like the "green light trigger" give very detailed installation instructions, most of which are to do with where to stop at the lights "in order for the sensor to work the best." As it turns out, just stopping in the right place without a magnet will trip most lights most of the time, because you are giving the sensor the best possible chance of detecting you.

2. Following on from (1), the positioning of your bike relative to the sensor is crucial. I tried ASCII art in a post above and it came out crap, so I've attached photos to this post. If you stop as indicated in the photos, you should get a green light unless the sensor is really badly adjusted, or compeltely broken. The best way to trigger the sensors is to ride down the edge of the first sensor and stop OVER the edge of the second one. (I choose the right hand edge since i ride in that position on the road) The important thing is to stop OVER the sensor not past it. If it's just badly adjusted, you can try the usual tricks such as putting your centre stand down on the road briefly if you have one, or stopping and restarting the bike (starter motor spews out electromagnetic noise) - these things will have a markedly better chance of working now that you are in the best place for the sensor to detect you.

3. Again this follows on from (2) - If you call the council responsible for the lights you're having a problem with, they will actually send a traffic engineer out to retune the sensors! I called a few councils in Auckland and they seemed to be aware of the issue (bicyclists suffer this problem too) and they are willing to fix it. One council (nth shore) said they need to get a couple of complaints before they will do anything but the others seem willing to send someone out if you are polite, explain the issue clearly, and tell them the intersection, lane, direction, and time of day (some lights switch from timers to detection at certain times of the day).

4. I experimented with a couple of different EMP generators.....they seem to work really well but to be honest i havent really taken this much further because a) i have no problem at all the lights i commute thru any more now that i position myself properly on the road, b) the power consumption is quite high, and c) there could be other nasty side effects....anyone here with a pacemaker? :-)

So...that's what i found, positioning seems to be the best fix, followed by getting the councils involved if it's a light you come across often. I'm not saying the magnet products like Green Light Trigger don't work, just that the improvement is barely measureable in controlled experiments, and i believe that the testimonials on thier site are due to people following the instructions and starting to position themselves correctly, then thinking it's the magnet making the difference. If anyone wanted a super high power magnet anyway, I can get these thru work. The positioning is what works for me and everyone i have got to test the theory for me as well, and it all makes sense when you look at the relevant electromagnetics equations, so hopefully this post helps a few people - so i throw it out to you good people to try the positioning tricks, and report back here!

:done:

inlinefour

19th March 2005, 17:59

If you supply a gadget to ensure the lights will change for me, then I'll buy one...

DarkNinja

19th March 2005, 18:32

[QUOTE=allun]3. The final product is similar to the "firefly" as described here: http://shop.store.yahoo.com/edgeoutside/vacapfivastl.html are these devices legal for cars/motorbikes in NZ? The document here: http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/rules/vehicle-lighting-2004.html doesn't mention wheel lights specifically..... additionally, what colours would be allowed for this type of device? i.e. would red be disallowed because the rules currently state that red lights must only face rearward?
[QUOTE]
Freakay... Our young enterprise team made a product called the firefly that was designed like that. I still havent developed a film we took of my bike using it but they look bloody awesome in action.
DN

notme

20th March 2005, 10:50

Freakay... Our young enterprise team made a product called the firefly that was designed like that. I still havent developed a film we took of my bike using it but they look bloody awesome in action.
DN

Weird....yeah my bright red beast with red brake calipers and red ¨firefly" type lights looked awesome.....just be aware that like the flashing brake light, it is illegal to use on the road.....can´t be having us bikers being more visible now can we ??? :confused:

Wolf

25th June 2006, 22:18

Well, tonight I had the ideal opportunity to test Allun's theory about where you stop in relation to the sensors. I was the only vehicle coming up to the intersection, I had the red and the sensor grid was clearly visible on the road so I swerved to align my bike with the edge of the square , slowed and then, once I was on the sensor, braked hard to force the front (and thus the frame) to dive. I figured that any additional movement of the metal frame at the field would enhance my presence.

I glanced across in time to see the light for the other traffic switch to amber and then to red and I got my green light.

OK, one test is hardly conclusive so I will be putting the theory to the test at every opportunity.

Today was the first time since I got the bike that I was the only vehicle at a light-controlled intersection. I've taken to noting the presence of the rectangles at intersections so I'll be ready to try them out as the opportunity arises.

Will keep you all posted.

If it doesn't seem to work at any stage, I'll see if bouncing up and down on the bike or revving the engine will help trigger the sensor. The XT225 is a very small light bike - it's not exactly a sea of metal so it would be a good one for testing the trigger. If I can trip the lights, anyone on a larger, heavier bike should have more than enough metal to trigger it.

Big Dave

25th June 2006, 22:32

*sigh* or you can just put your side stand down for a second.

ZeroIndex

25th June 2006, 22:43

with the flashy lights, one of the goldwings on the ride i went on today, had flashy lights.. went left right left right.. (like a cop car, but just red lights)

slopster

25th June 2006, 23:33

Dont fixed speed cameras use the same setup as traffic light to trigger them. You wouldn't want to increase your chances of getting caught.

Wolf

25th June 2006, 23:47

Dont fixed speed cameras use the same setup as traffic light to trigger them. You wouldn't want to increase your chances of getting caught.
AFAIK speed cameras work on radar to get an idea of how fast you're travelling and only trigger if you exceed a certain speed. Unless you're in a Stealth Bomber, they're going to detect you. The light sensors are supposed to detect a low speed, stopping, (or stopped) vehicle at the lights and use an electromagnetic sensor to detect the mass of metal.

As I do not speed these days, I have no reason to fear a speed camera - done my share of paying for the gummint's cocaine, P and kiddie porn when I was younger.

Firefight

26th June 2006, 06:35

- in the states they have technology to allow emergency vehicles to carry a transciever that causes the lights in the ambo or firey's path to go green - have you heard of that at all FireFight mate?

hey Allun,

yes have heard of it, think I have some info about it at home, will check and pm you, hows your bike ?, havn,t seen you out our way much, are you still doing the band thing ?

F/F

notme

3rd July 2006, 08:42

Hey FF!

that info would be awesome just for my interest :rockon:

Still doing the band thing, but yeah haven't been in shouting distance of a certain R6 for a while! :nya:

I think those transceivers to let emergency services through the lights would be a bloody good thing - i seem to always see dickheads not allowing you guys through - the one and only time some people seem to obey a red light!

Bullbars on the front of the fire engine is the solution i think.

notme

3rd July 2006, 08:48

Oh yeah - speed cameras:

Portable ones (the vans and cars) use radar aimed across the road to get a speed reading, and fixed ones (pole mounted) use triggers in the road just like traffic lights.

So - if the fixed ones use the same technology as traffic lights, there's a chance that a badly tuned road sensor will not detect a bike, just like a badly tuned sensor at the lights sometimes won't catch a bike.

Who wants to bet that the people that maintain the speed camera sensors tune them a lot more carefully than the traffic light ones......:wait:

Firefight

3rd July 2006, 09:59

Hey FF!

that info would be awesome just for my interest :rockon:

http://www.opticom.com/

no doubt other tech firms would have simular products, info I got is a bit dated, but this link may help.

F/F

edit, wrong link, but right company... might have to google it to get the right link

speights_bud

3rd July 2006, 19:55

The valve cap lights may be illegal under the following:

10.9 Fitting and performance requirements for other optional lighting equipment
A vehicle may be fitted with one or more lamps that are not otherwise specified in this rule provided that the lamp:

(b) is positioned so that the light source is not directly visible when viewed from a position as shown by ‘x’ in Figure 10.1 (attached)

(c) only emits light that is diffuse;

(f) is in a fixed position on the vehicle, and does not revolve, rotate or otherwise move;

(g) is fitted in a way, and is of a luminance, that ensures that it does not dazzle, confuse or distract other drivers or other road users;

I found all this when i was checking out the legality of a neon light my g/f at the time purchased for me and insisted i install:shutup: (broken now).

But other than those points (which may or may not be applicable) i don't see why not, i think i've even seen them for sale on trademe or repco??

Skyryder

3rd July 2006, 20:11

ZeroIndex

3rd July 2006, 20:15

justsomeguy

3rd July 2006, 20:15

Still no match for looking in your rear mirrors making sure you don't let anyone hit you.

raster

3rd July 2006, 21:21

I havn't had any problem with traffic lights, always stop across one of the lines, sometimes if I have cars behind me I tap the starter just in case, don't know if that actually works or not.

What are the intersections around Mt wellington that are troublesome?

R

notme

4th July 2006, 08:39

What would be useful is a change down red. Often bikers use the revs to slow down and do not touch the brakes. A rear light that is connected to the changdown that comes on for say two seconds so as to give the cage some warning of 'slowdown.' Could be the way to go.
Skyryder

I have lots of ideas for little gadgets like this - such as a deceleration sensor to do exactly what you describe - so it doesn't matter how you are slowing down (brakes, engine braking, .....headwind!) the brake light would come on or flash or whatever to indicate that you are slowing.

The problem is, most things i think of are illegal under the lighting/modification/WOF rules :nono:

sAsLEX

4th July 2006, 08:47

The problem is, most things i think of are illegal under the lighting/modification/WOF rules :nono:

How would they ever know? They test all your lights stationary in the testing station

Ixion

4th July 2006, 09:03

I don't think a deceleration sensor activated light would be illegal.

The law says you must have a red light to the rear, that lights when the service brake is applied (You can have two actually).

It says you must not have any other lights than those specified (ie stop lights, tail lights, indicators etc).

But it is silent on how the lights are activated, other than to say that they must light when the brake is applied.

I think you would have to retain the normal brake light switch circuit (which you would want anyway, to cover the situation when you are sitting stationary with the brake on). But if you connected another deceleration activated switch, the law does not cover that. It is not forbidden, therefore legal.The retained standard switch covers WoF.

But you would want to have some smarts in there, else the light would be on too often. You don't want it flashing on everytime you back off a smidgin. Either a delay of a second or two, or a minimum deceleration force, or , maybe, nice, a variable intensity - the greater the deceleration the brighter the light.

notme

4th July 2006, 09:13

Wolf

4th July 2006, 09:35

But you would want to have some smarts in there, else the light would be on too often. You don't want it flashing on everytime you back off a smidgin. Either a delay of a second or two, or a minimum deceleration force,
A pendulum switch working against an adjustable spring should work - set so it swings front-to-rear (and with the spring towards the front to inhibit the pendulum, obviously) and then play around with the tension of the spring and the radius of the pendulum (affects leverage) or perhaps the mass of the weight until only the requisite amount of inertia is sufficient to trigger the switch.

Throttle off gently and the spring should stop the pendulum travelling far enough forward to trigger the light, throttle off suddenly and the pendulum's momentum overcomes the spring and triggers the switch.

Rip open the throttle and the pendulum slams into the rear stop - you did install a block to prevent undue rearward travel, right? Oh dear...

A tube containing a weight resting against an adjustable spring would also work if you want to keep it fairly slim-line but it would need to be fairly carefully made to ensure the weight does not jam in the tube. The pendulum, with only a single pivot point, would be less prone to jamming.

Wire in parallel with the other two brake switches et voila!

adam666

4th July 2006, 09:47

Who wants to bet that the people that maintain the speed camera sensors tune them a lot more carefully than the traffic light ones......:wait:

who wants to bet they use alot BETTER sensors for speed cameras!

although, I dont think they would use the inductive loops

I was under the impression they used sensitive pressure sensors (ie more than two), over the duration of the cut out in the road?
so as to monitor the position of the wheel as it travels over the area.

otherwise there wouldnt be able to accurately judge the speed of the vehicle?

cheers
Adam

adam666

4th July 2006, 09:50

2 other things you can do are :
Rev the engine - makes the alternater work producing a larger electromagnetic field.
Brake hard so the shocks load up ad the bike sinks lower to the ground. More metal moved into the field.

The lights your taking about testing on wouldn't be the ones outside the BK by Mt Wellington?

I would think a tesla coil (ignition coil) with a secondary lead which was close to the ground might work quite well :)

flick the switch, couple of arcs to the ground should excite the coils very nicely :p

cheers
Adam

sAsLEX

4th July 2006, 09:52

A pendulum switch working against an adjustable spring should work - set so it swings front-to-rear

What are you a caveman?
<img src=http://saslex.orcon.net.nz/untitled.JPG>

Something like this is more the go http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0%2C2877%2CADXL103%2C00.html

notme

4th July 2006, 10:02

What are you a caveman?

Something like this is more the go http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0%2C2877%2CADXL103%2C00.html

Egg-sack-tly what i was thinking. One of dem, a Tiny15 micro, and not much else! :doobey:

Should work out to be about the size of a matchbox, all solid state, could be potted in epoxy to withstand the rigours of automotive use.....look for it soon at your nearest bike shop! :nya:

sAsLEX

4th July 2006, 10:05

Egg-sack-tly what i was thinking. One of dem, a Tiny15 micro, and not much else! :doobey:

Should work out to be about the size of a matchbox, all solid state, could be potted in epoxy to withstand the rigours of automotive use.....look for it soon at your nearest bike shop! :nya:

Would only need three wires as well, a positive ground and one to hook in to the brake loom, simple as ! Would just use piggy back connectors and no need to cut any wires or anything!

Mikey27

4th July 2006, 10:14

sAsLEX

4th July 2006, 10:25

you guys have lost me on the other stuff, but I can tell you flashing tail lights definately don't pass a wof, one issue was the number plate lighting which of course runs off the brake light and of course the fact cages think your not braking hard. I have some led flashing bulbs for sale if anyone wants them...

The brake light is a seperate light/filament to the no plate bulb on most bikes, kinda like high and low beam at the front! Low beam is on with the lights and illuminates the rear plate, and when you brake (lights on or off) the high beam comes on!

WOF guy wouldnt see it as stated above they test whilst the bike is static and this device would have no effect in that instance!

Ixion

4th July 2006, 10:38

Flashing lights (front or rear) is a whole other story. Definately forbidden - though headlamps shouldn't be.

But irrelevant here, no changes suggested to tail light or number plate illumination lamp (on bikes it's often not a separate filiment/bulb as on cages- often just a taillight lens with red plastic top front and sides and a clear panel in the bottom for the number plate light)

Mikey27

4th July 2006, 10:39

problem being led flasher gives off RED light while lit, even on light circuitry,

number plate requires white light, plus still the other issue, brake light must be constant while brake applied

sAsLEX

4th July 2006, 10:45

problem being led flasher gives off RED light while lit, even on light circuitry,

number plate requires white light, plus still the other issue, brake light must be constant while brake applied

Which thing are you reffering to ??

oh and get a white LED not hard!

Mikey27

4th July 2006, 11:17

if you want a white one buy a white one, just saying red or white, they fail a wof,

sAsLEX

4th July 2006, 11:29

they fail a wof,

W h a t d o ?

Wolf

4th July 2006, 12:03

What are you a caveman?
Caveman? When we were kids we looked up to people who lived in caves!

And they had fire!

I'm not an electronics person - that's a hardware tech's job. :nya:

Ixion

4th July 2006, 14:44

What are you a caveman?

Something like this is more the go http://www.analog.com/en/prod/0%2C2877%2CADXL103%2C00.html

Yes, I think that's a bit more what I was envisaging. Pendulums and so on were all very well for the Spragthorpe Wheezehound , but we have moved on since dear old Gottlieb hung up his overalls.

Wolf

4th July 2006, 14:59

we have moved on since dear old Gottlieb hung up his overalls.
Gottlieb quit? When the fuck did that happen?

Next thing you say is they're not making Hillmans any more.